I'm a student on my university's supermileage design team, and this video has explained how to achieve ackernman steering better than any paper or report I found online. This is amazingly simple
Holy crap man. You just saved me from watching anymore stupid videos on UA-cam. You're the only one who actually explained it where I could get a grasp of this concept. Super simple, super easy and I'll be tackling this either today or tomorrow. Btw, does this same setup apply to a dead axle. Either way I'm doing this to my gocart. I believe it will do it good anyway. I have a manco dominator I'm converting from 2 seater to 1 seater and moving the entire steering shaft and assembly to the center of the frame and putting a honda 185s motor on it. Should be fun. Thanks a ton man. Your awesome.
currently doing research for a motorcycle powered space frame "gokart", and this has been very helpful. So many videos are like "this is how ackerman works" and then just say that it makes the outside tire turn less. how to set it up an make it work is the one thing I've been looking for.
Thanks a ton. I have watch probably 6 other videos on this and couldnt figure it out. Your string line set up made our go kart work again for my kids. Plus probably saved my exterior garage walls even.
Heck yeah man I love comments like these! I'm always trying to find the best way to simplify these kinda things and its always awesome to hear that its working and helping people with their own projects! I'm sure the kids are gonna love the new setup! Tell em TYRANIS says hi!🦖
I've been wanting to do this to my riding mower for a couple years now to make it a bit more maneuverable in tighter areas. I had learned this literally decades ago and had forgotten the basics, but I knew it was simple. Your video was the perfect refresher, no time wasted, simple and to the point. Thank you.
Its unbelievable. I'm literally building a 3203. The steering is the next thing on my list. So far it's got a 440cc duromax and a comet 40 series. I've beefed up the axle by adding gussets and more bearings.
All these hot shots on UA-cam like Red Beard and C&C never talk enough about steering…they will mention about how the yard Kart is twitchy at high speeds or maybe it scrubs when you go into turns but they don’t really talk about the physics of it, what’s wrong, or how to fix it. For me steering is the most important thing for a Go Kart because a Go Kart must be nimble. Thank you for your very clear and concise explanation and instructional video.
*You couldn't be more wrong about when the steering is ahead of the front axle centerline.* True Ackerman is *ALWAYS* relative to the _real_ vehicle rear axle centerline and *NEVER* some flipped imaginary point ahead of the vehicle as you suggest at around 5:10 and beyond of this video. With forward mounted (leading side) steering, the tie rod pickup points on the knuckles are outboard of the kingpin in an True Ackerman steering system. By running the pickup points inboard on a forward mounted steering system, you are actually running anti-Ackerman geometry (meaning that the outside wheel will turn more than the inside wheel which in most cases is not what you want (but there are times where you actually want that)). To find the pickup point for a leading steer system, you still draw a line from the rear axle center to the kingpin center but then continue to extent it past the kingpin and a some point (based on you offset from front axle centerline that you desire) past the kingpin on that line is where you want the tie rod pickup point on the knuckle. *EDIT:* Corrected Time stamp for portion of video
Good catch CJ. Admittedly I always opt for rear mounted steering just to give my tie rods a little more protection when we're crashing through the woods etc so I didn't dedicate as much research to, or bother to physically verify the clearly flawed information I ended up finding. That aside, I'm curious now what the actual application is of anti-Ackerman geometry is cause its not immediately obvious to me🤔
@@TyranisCustoms For karts, it probably makes more sense to have tailing side steering. In the regular road going cars, leading side steering if favorable unless packing constraints dictate the need to use trailing steering (like most Transvers FWD vehicles since the engine / transmission is in the way for the steering column. The reason for this is because of deflection understeer. With leading side steering, suspension component deflection will result in a slight understeer of the wheels for a given steering input. Trailing side steering will result is deflection oversteer which if not favorable. As for the anti-Ackerman usage, it has to do with tire slip angles and average corner radius conditions. Formula cars (like F1 and Formula 3000 for example) will almost always run anti-Ackerman geometry because they rarely make tight turn. The reason is, they are concern with running all 4 tires a the optimum slip angle thus generating the most lateral traction possible. With large radius corners, Pro-Ackerman geometry causes the inside front tire to run a larger then necessary slip angles and thus scrubs. This not only reduces traction available from that tire but also causes it to run hotter and wear faster. Something like an autocross car on the other hand, you would want to run as close to perfect Ackerman geometry as possible because of the numerous really tight (small radius) corners.. Running anti-Ackerman geometry on this type of car would cause the inside tire to run at a reverse slip angle and thus scrub really bad. The above two reason and who the cause scrub vs. slip angle is why you will almost never find a production road car with perfect Ackerman geometry but rather some small to medium percentage of Pro-Ackerman geometry meaning that they are somewhere between parallel steer and perfect Ackerman. Its a balancing act for road car suspension engineers to find a good pro-Ackerman geometry for a given car that doesn't causes too much excessive slip angle in either large radius and tight radius turners since a road car will do a fairly well balanced mix of each since they are driven on both city streets (I.e., tight small radius turns thus wanting perfect Ackerman) and on the Highways (i.e., long sweeping high speed turns where you would actually want very little to possibly even technically Anti Ackerman) Hope this helps to at least somewhat full your curiosity on the subject.
That actually makes a ton of sense and is vaguely familiar. I will have to revise this video at some point to correct my error and this comment is gonna be super helpful. Thanks again for keeping me honest!
Yup. A direct flip just makes it perform the opposite way. This other video shows the example: ua-cam.com/video/ZYJKWZIxP7s/v-deo.htmlsi=0w03hroBz-h9pOqh
Thanks Jacob! They aren't as flashy as the build vlogs but I really like getting to pull out the key info and making it easy to search and consume. I'm really glad you're finding them helpful!
If you can't mess with the knuckle... You can add that off-set difference to the steering mounts. One rod in front and one in back. The left rod would mount on the right, while the right mounts off-set on the left. (That is why you need one in front and one in back, or they will bind.) Or you can do them on the same sides, offset, if you swap for shorter rods. That gives you the option to switch, as desired, depending on the track.
You're welcome! Thank you! I recommend tie rods in the rear. I'm not positive my explanation of the forward positionion was accurate, cause I always build by tie rods behind the a arms for extra protection offroad. I'll revisit the topic sooner if you were leaning on front mounting them haha
@@TyranisCustoms Thanks again Bobby, Ive watched several videos on Ackerman steering and most are overly complicated, where yours cut straight to the points and practical implementation. It stands to reason that as long as the geometry is the same on the steering arms the steering geometry will be the same. I'll check your others videos, and look forward to updates. I've found others helpful in something I'm currently working on which is a trike based EV and derivation of this: thefuturepeople.us/orbit.html I've been playing around in Solidworks with different suspension ideas, and as it likely would end up with front hub motors and motorcycle tires, am currently leaning towards a simple sand rail variable camber front suspension design with only a lower swig arm and mono-shock or torsion bar, or a front live axel design, or possibly a trailing link or forward-facing link suspension. If you have any ideas or like to chat let me know. Thanks.
@@jackoneil3933 bro, I have half a dozen pro certs in Solidworks from my "past life" I'd love to see what you're workin on! I'm not always on top of it but shoot me an email @ tyraniscustoms@gmail.com
i understand this now very useful when i redo my spindles to add caster on my racing gokart since its live axle and doesnt turn well without ill make my spindles do this also as a bonus it should turn really well then i normaly go straight when i turn hard right now lol
Pleasure meeting you guys!! Your doing great and have big things in front of you....keep it up I will be following along!! Ps..get your self a mic. You can pick up a nice rode wireless mic for 100-150$
Thanks man! Great to meet you too! And you have great taste in mics! That's what we use whenever my camera man and his gear is here, I just gotta get one for when I shoot by myself 😅
I have one! Specifically on shock positioning: ua-cam.com/video/R6-wYlKEcOo/v-deo.html If that does answer your question comment it and I'll make another one!
@@TyranisCustoms I only want to know about the reason behind it that why in anti Ackerman steering the outer wheel has more angle than the inner wheel??
Hell yeah man thanks. Off topic question but will you link me them harnesses you have on your kart please I'm sticking with stock seat for a while so those would be sick, better than the original for sure and much safer!
So the attachment point has to align aling the string on both sides regardless of where the steering shaft is (centered ot to the left side in front of the driver)?
I have a Coleman KT196. It’s got a steering rack. It needs a better alignment. Would I be able to do this with that? I have aligned the wheel and tires good enough. Just needs better turning.
@@TyranisCustoms The recumbent trike I’m making will have two bicycle wheels in front for steering, and one rear wheel for pedalling. I’ve been teaching myself “ackermann”. Many videos on youtube don’t really teach, they just make you more confused. Your video with the “string method” is the one that makes “ackermann” clear. I hope you can show methods for attaching the front wheels for steering. I figured that if it’s strong enough for gokarts, it would be strong enough for recumbents. The usual method for attaching recumbent front wheels is the cut two head tubes (used for steering handlebars ) form old bicycles and figure out a way to attach wheels on them. Because of the pandemic, bikes became popular, so it’s hard to locate old bike frames to chop.Thanks!
Your set up is wrong because you do not have your string at the center of the turning axis but at the side of the nut, a few mm out. Positioned correctly your strings would come to a point beyond the rear axle. Also you fail to mention how you decide on steering arm length. Without this, you still you only half way there with the Ackerman geometry.
I'm a student on my university's supermileage design team, and this video has explained how to achieve ackernman steering better than any paper or report I found online. This is amazingly simple
Holy crap man. You just saved me from watching anymore stupid videos on UA-cam. You're the only one who actually explained it where I could get a grasp of this concept. Super simple, super easy and I'll be tackling this either today or tomorrow. Btw, does this same setup apply to a dead axle. Either way I'm doing this to my gocart. I believe it will do it good anyway. I have a manco dominator I'm converting from 2 seater to 1 seater and moving the entire steering shaft and assembly to the center of the frame and putting a honda 185s motor on it. Should be fun. Thanks a ton man. Your awesome.
Nice. Easiest and quickest Ackerman video I’ve seen. Keep it up from a fellow CTer
Thanks Phil! Easy and Quick are my two goals for all my TYRANIS TIPS! I'm really glad to hear I hit this one home! CT REPRESENT😤
currently doing research for a motorcycle powered space frame "gokart", and this has been very helpful. So many videos are like "this is how ackerman works" and then just say that it makes the outside tire turn less. how to set it up an make it work is the one thing I've been looking for.
Thanks a ton. I have watch probably 6 other videos on this and couldnt figure it out. Your string line set up made our go kart work again for my kids. Plus probably saved my exterior garage walls even.
Heck yeah man I love comments like these! I'm always trying to find the best way to simplify these kinda things and its always awesome to hear that its working and helping people with their own projects! I'm sure the kids are gonna love the new setup! Tell em TYRANIS says hi!🦖
Thanks for making this steering video. My 3203 has the opposite of ackerman going on! Now I know how to fix it!
I love it! Comments like these make the videos worth making!
That was a very good, clear explanation.
Thanks man! That's always my goal with these TYRANIS TIPS!
I've been wanting to do this to my riding mower for a couple years now to make it a bit more maneuverable in tighter areas. I had learned this literally decades ago and had forgotten the basics, but I knew it was simple. Your video was the perfect refresher, no time wasted, simple and to the point. Thank you.
I've just discovered you through C&C, also I'm currently building a kart so this was very helpful, thank you and subscribed 😁
That's so awesome! Thank you!
Its unbelievable. I'm literally building a 3203. The steering is the next thing on my list. So far it's got a 440cc duromax and a comet 40 series. I've beefed up the axle by adding gussets and more bearings.
That sounds awesome! You are on the right track 😎🦖
I Learned alot here from this video. Thanks you. Wil certainly try the string method on my gocart canoe build.
I have tried many videos but you explained the easily. thanks man
All these hot shots on UA-cam like Red Beard and C&C never talk enough about steering…they will mention about how the yard Kart is twitchy at high speeds or maybe it scrubs when you go into turns but they don’t really talk about the physics of it, what’s wrong, or how to fix it. For me steering is the most important thing for a Go Kart because a Go Kart must be nimble. Thank you for your very clear and concise explanation and instructional video.
Most videos on Go Kart builds just show them welding. Rarely can you find one that explains anything.
Best explained video I have seen. Thanks
Super helpful!! I'm building a go kart now and can't wait to do my steering like this. thanks for the video!
Heck yeah man! Glad I could help!
Best explanation I have seen of Ackerman steering. Thank you
You're so welcome!
*You couldn't be more wrong about when the steering is ahead of the front axle centerline.*
True Ackerman is *ALWAYS* relative to the _real_ vehicle rear axle centerline and *NEVER* some flipped imaginary point ahead of the vehicle as you suggest at around 5:10 and beyond of this video. With forward mounted (leading side) steering, the tie rod pickup points on the knuckles are outboard of the kingpin in an True Ackerman steering system. By running the pickup points inboard on a forward mounted steering system, you are actually running anti-Ackerman geometry (meaning that the outside wheel will turn more than the inside wheel which in most cases is not what you want (but there are times where you actually want that)).
To find the pickup point for a leading steer system, you still draw a line from the rear axle center to the kingpin center but then continue to extent it past the kingpin and a some point (based on you offset from front axle centerline that you desire) past the kingpin on that line is where you want the tie rod pickup point on the knuckle.
*EDIT:* Corrected Time stamp for portion of video
Good catch CJ. Admittedly I always opt for rear mounted steering just to give my tie rods a little more protection when we're crashing through the woods etc so I didn't dedicate as much research to, or bother to physically verify the clearly flawed information I ended up finding. That aside, I'm curious now what the actual application is of anti-Ackerman geometry is cause its not immediately obvious to me🤔
@@TyranisCustoms
For karts, it probably makes more sense to have tailing side steering. In the regular road going cars, leading side steering if favorable unless packing constraints dictate the need to use trailing steering (like most Transvers FWD vehicles since the engine / transmission is in the way for the steering column. The reason for this is because of deflection understeer. With leading side steering, suspension component deflection will result in a slight understeer of the wheels for a given steering input. Trailing side steering will result is deflection oversteer which if not favorable.
As for the anti-Ackerman usage, it has to do with tire slip angles and average corner radius conditions. Formula cars (like F1 and Formula 3000 for example) will almost always run anti-Ackerman geometry because they rarely make tight turn. The reason is, they are concern with running all 4 tires a the optimum slip angle thus generating the most lateral traction possible. With large radius corners, Pro-Ackerman geometry causes the inside front tire to run a larger then necessary slip angles and thus scrubs. This not only reduces traction available from that tire but also causes it to run hotter and wear faster.
Something like an autocross car on the other hand, you would want to run as close to perfect Ackerman geometry as possible because of the numerous really tight (small radius) corners.. Running anti-Ackerman geometry on this type of car would cause the inside tire to run at a reverse slip angle and thus scrub really bad.
The above two reason and who the cause scrub vs. slip angle is why you will almost never find a production road car with perfect Ackerman geometry but rather some small to medium percentage of Pro-Ackerman geometry meaning that they are somewhere between parallel steer and perfect Ackerman. Its a balancing act for road car suspension engineers to find a good pro-Ackerman geometry for a given car that doesn't causes too much excessive slip angle in either large radius and tight radius turners since a road car will do a fairly well balanced mix of each since they are driven on both city streets (I.e., tight small radius turns thus wanting perfect Ackerman) and on the Highways (i.e., long sweeping high speed turns where you would actually want very little to possibly even technically Anti Ackerman)
Hope this helps to at least somewhat full your curiosity on the subject.
That actually makes a ton of sense and is vaguely familiar. I will have to revise this video at some point to correct my error and this comment is gonna be super helpful. Thanks again for keeping me honest!
Super helpful video, very hands-on approach instead of too much theory stuff.
Great job this video is really helpful for me to fix the steering on the yerfdog .
That's awesome! That's why we make the TYRANIS TIPS! Love comments like this
as usual, nice job
Thanks again!
Can't just flip for front steer. On front steer the tie rod ends should be farther out than knuckle centerline.
Exactly I made that mistake and now have to fix it 😂
Yup. A direct flip just makes it perform the opposite way. This other video shows the example:
ua-cam.com/video/ZYJKWZIxP7s/v-deo.htmlsi=0w03hroBz-h9pOqh
Made perfect sense. Thank you for the plain English explanation.
Nice explanation professor!
Thanks kiddo 🤓
Absolutely concisely explained. Thank you
love this video, great job. videos like this are really helpful. i hope that you continue to make more like this. 👍
Thanks Jacob! They aren't as flashy as the build vlogs but I really like getting to pull out the key info and making it easy to search and consume. I'm really glad you're finding them helpful!
Yes I’m first to my favorite UA-cam channel
I'm honored :') 💚
@@TyranisCustoms aww i was late
@@jacobbender5449 it's gonna get harder and harder haha
You Rock my MAN I'm about to try to make a ice cream truck go kart thumbs up on your tutorial
This video is FIRE, I'd thumbs up it at least 100 times if youtube let me!
If you can't mess with the knuckle... You can add that off-set difference to the steering mounts. One rod in front and one in back. The left rod would mount on the right, while the right mounts off-set on the left. (That is why you need one in front and one in back, or they will bind.) Or you can do them on the same sides, offset, if you swap for shorter rods.
That gives you the option to switch, as desired, depending on the track.
Excellent and understandable expiation, thank you!
You're welcome! Thank you! I recommend tie rods in the rear. I'm not positive my explanation of the forward positionion was accurate, cause I always build by tie rods behind the a arms for extra protection offroad. I'll revisit the topic sooner if you were leaning on front mounting them haha
@@TyranisCustoms Thanks again Bobby, Ive watched several videos on Ackerman steering and most are overly complicated, where yours cut straight to the points and practical implementation. It stands to reason that as long as the geometry is the same on the steering arms the steering geometry will be the same.
I'll check your others videos, and look forward to updates. I've found others helpful in something I'm currently working on which is a trike based EV and derivation of this: thefuturepeople.us/orbit.html
I've been playing around in Solidworks with different suspension ideas, and as it likely would end up with front hub motors and motorcycle tires, am currently leaning towards a simple sand rail variable camber front suspension design with only a lower swig arm and mono-shock or torsion bar, or a front live axel design, or possibly a trailing link or forward-facing link suspension.
If you have any ideas or like to chat let me know.
Thanks.
@@jackoneil3933 bro, I have half a dozen pro certs in Solidworks from my "past life" I'd love to see what you're workin on! I'm not always on top of it but shoot me an email @ tyraniscustoms@gmail.com
will this help me turn my life around? asking for a friend
You win the comment section 😂😂
I tried and tried to think of something funny to write back haha nothing though
If you are riding in a go cart.......yes.
i understand this now very useful when i redo my spindles to add caster on my racing gokart since its live axle and doesnt turn well without ill make my spindles do this also as a bonus it should turn really well then i normaly go straight when i turn hard right now lol
Great explanation!
Thank you!
Thanks for the explanation.
Anytime!
very clear explanation.thank you brother❤❤
Pleasure meeting you guys!! Your doing great and have big things in front of you....keep it up I will be following along!! Ps..get your self a mic. You can pick up a nice rode wireless mic for 100-150$
Thanks man! Great to meet you too! And you have great taste in mics! That's what we use whenever my camera man and his gear is here, I just gotta get one for when I shoot by myself 😅
Great meeting you too! Welcome to the Tyranis 🦖 family! Appreciate the kind words my man!!
@@bigbob7008 😤🦖💚
can you do an explanation for suspension?.Your explanation is great.
I have one! Specifically on shock positioning:
ua-cam.com/video/R6-wYlKEcOo/v-deo.html
If that does answer your question comment it and I'll make another one!
Why In anti Ackerman steering the outer wheel has more angle than the inner angle??
Why it happens comes down to the geometry of how everything is set up. Why you would WANT that, I'm still not positive...
@@TyranisCustoms I only want to know about the reason behind it that why in anti Ackerman steering the outer wheel has more angle than the inner wheel??
Hell yeah man thanks. Off topic question but will you link me them harnesses you have on your kart please I'm sticking with stock seat for a while so those would be sick, better than the original for sure and much safer!
My bad, I gottchu in the other comment!
@@TyranisCustoms Sorry I forgot I even wrote this one I must have really really wanted them lol
In tie rods forward of kingpin case it doesn't follow Ackerman. It will be anti-ackerman . Isn't it??
Subscribed!
Heck yeah! Glad you were diggin the shop! 😎
Awesome!!
So the attachment point has to align aling the string on both sides regardless of where the steering shaft is (centered ot to the left side in front of the driver)?
I have a old carter bros go kart and the steering is very touchy. Any bump and it feels like it’s all over the place. Any ideas on a fix ?
May i know what kind of steering mechanism you use sir?
I have a Coleman KT196. It’s got a steering rack. It needs a better alignment. Would I be able to do this with that? I have aligned the wheel and tires good enough. Just needs better turning.
You should be able to apply the same principles. I recommend the first way I show with the rack behind the front tires. That's how I build everything
Will the string line setup work when we have a positive caster angle?
can you apply this placing of string (from center of rear axle to front tie rods) to recumbent trikes or does this apply only to go karts?
I imagine it would work! Where's the single wheel, in front or at the back? Also which wheel(s) steer? I'm new to the recumbent game haha
@@TyranisCustoms The recumbent trike I’m making will have two bicycle wheels in front for steering, and one rear wheel for pedalling. I’ve been teaching myself “ackermann”. Many videos on youtube don’t really teach, they just make you more confused. Your video with the “string method” is the one that makes “ackermann” clear. I hope you can show methods for attaching the front wheels for steering. I figured that if it’s strong enough for gokarts, it would be strong enough for recumbents. The usual method for attaching recumbent front wheels is the cut two head tubes (used for steering handlebars ) form old bicycles and figure out a way to attach wheels on them. Because of the pandemic, bikes became popular, so it’s hard to locate old bike frames to chop.Thanks!
Your set up is wrong because you do not have your string at the center of the turning axis but at the side of the nut, a few mm out. Positioned correctly your strings would come to a point beyond the rear axle. Also you fail to mention how you decide on steering arm length. Without this, you still you only half way there with the Ackerman geometry.
8:33
at 5.16 i think you are doing a mistake :)
You are right. I need to fix this video. I just keep forgetting 😅 good eye!
@@TyranisCustoms :D :D :D