OG Tekken is insane.
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- Опубліковано 25 жов 2023
- Original video: • A Low Quality Video: K...
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Intro/Outro by SKONK - / @bigskonk
Intro/Outro track by KEIFERGR33N - / @keifergr33n
Edited by: / @averyxfgc
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I'm PhiDX, I play Tekken professionally for @ParagonFGC and ArcadeShock.
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I peaked Diamond 1 in League of Legends and focus on improvement philosophies for the casual player looking to get better! - Ігри
It’s not super common, but a frequent concern that often gets brought up with Tekken 5DR (or really even Tekken Tag 2, another Tekken with notably strong movement) is that if movement is as strong as it is here, then it presents a balancing/gameplay pacing concern because it becomes so much harder to push offence on your opponent. I really appreciate that you took the time to do this analysis, because it showcases the best argument against that concern: powerful movement doesn’t prevent you from conducting offence in Tekken, it *turns movement itself into offence*
anyway can we get a re-release of T5DR Online or what
Yes! Instead of pokes and strings being primary offense, it's movement and pokes. Instead of strictly defensive movement, you get offensive movement. Instead of forced guesses, you can control when you have to guess and when you don't.
_"is that if movement is as strong as it is here, then it presents a balancing/gameplay pacing concern because it becomes so much harder to push offence on your opponent"_
That's not really a balancing concern. That's how it should be. The pressure should be on the attacker when the defender is good at defending.
It's only a concern for people who are bad at Tekken and want to mash and do forced mixups after +5 on hit lows and +6~+8 on block mids/highs where the opponent can't even do defensive movement to avoid the follow ups.
what really annoyed me on t7 (I began playing tekken last year) and still do to this day is how INSANELY fast recovery on whiff is on this game. I mean, even on whiff it's very hard to punish orbitals, for example (unless you step it). a lot of times I bait moves with movement/shimmy and I either get hit by a string follow up, or I can't punish in time because most moves recovers ultra fast on whiff. and what makes me even angrier is that it isn't even consistent. this is true for some of the characters and moves, but not all. for example, the simple jab should be literally the safest option on the game, right? without follow up, it's always a high, not much reach, does little damage. and it is true for most characters. unless you are kazuya. kazuya's jab feels like it takes considerably longer to recover on whiff, but the worst part, it extends his hurtbox A LOT. I have been launched and launched kazuyas from kilometers away by hitting the air near his fist. the annoying part isn't even the fact that the game encourages inconsequential mashing on lower levels of play, it's the fact that it is super inconsistent. there isn't a clear pattern, and there are characters that feel "privileged" for no reason
i believe this is the exact reason tekken 8 is the way it is. they wanted to dramatically reduce this mindset.
Phi this vid is so FUCKING COOL and this is what i want from high level player creators more, actual analysis of high level play. Ive SEEN match replays, i play them myself, but it aint everyday i get a treat like this.
I don't play Tekken, i tried, wasnt for me, but I live for this shit. I hope we get more intelligent analysis like this, shit like this is how you get players to actually understand and think about how these games work, rather then just throwing emotional opinions out as fact.
Also your energy here is great, I love how much you love this shit.
Thank you! I will try
@@PhiDXi share is same opinion, your content is gold i love your videos , and you are even so good at the game analysis (too bad you play a charachter that bored me to watch) but you are so fired i love your channel
He made everything up dude.
You can’t all of that stuff in 2 seconds going back and forth.
He is talking too much bullshit at 6:20
@molamola5260 why would you embarrass yourself like this by saying you know nothing but thinking you do ahahaha
Same, I'm a casual Tekken player, and while I'll never play at this level it's really cool to have someone who does lay out all the stuff that's going on.
Knee was fucking cracked
He still is
was?
I hope we get this as a series, reviewing legendary VODs of old T5DR/T6/Tag 2. Could use some guests too 👀
DR is the best Tekken ever made. I'd kill for another Tekken game like that. Or even a 4K remaster of it.
Nah its Tekken 7, gameplay wise, graphics wise, and statistically.
@@eazypeazy4842 Of course a new game in a series is going to have better graphics than one that came out over a decade prior. No shit. I'm talking about the core gameplay. DR's is without a doubt the best in the series. Silky smooth movement, no frills, pure Tekken. Skillful. No Tekken game with dumb shit like Rage (Arts), Rage Drives, nerfed movement, wonky balance, fireballs and weapons, etc. is going to be in the running for "best gameplay". You're on crack if you genuinely believe that. And this is coming from someone that thinks Tekken 7 is arguably the best fighting game of the past 7-8 years. But that's mostly because most modern fighters are trash. Compared to masterpieces like DR, T3, SoulCal 2, it's mid.
Tag 1 though
@@eazypeazy4842 I cannot even phathom how you could ever see tekken 7 as a superior game gameplay wise.
Lol, my sidesteps actually worked when I played T5DR at a local arcade months ago. A shame the buttons were poorly maintained, though.
the concept of ranges = attacks is so sick, super important in melee as well
Forward dashing is fun until you do it into an Akuma d3 clean hit range.
traumatic
Supreme example 😂
Tekken is actually just the coolest thing ever cause of stuff like this, the amount of little things that go into all of this is insane
This is the type of stuff that got me into Tekken. Good video, Phi.
Great video! You really explain these concepts super clearly, I feel like I've learned something.
You really get it, and I think this is an important video
for people to see to understand what older Tekken had that's missing in the formula.
I don't want gimmicks to be the answer for the Stale-ification of T7, but more thoughtfulness.
yeah, i've always wanted tekken to return to a more pure form like DR.
@@klumzing then it would be just tekken 5 DR 2024
@@philgamer9499 true, but idk how i feel about all this flashy stuff and jin doing backflips and slides and endless combos etc. they can do smth different but i just feel like it's gone too crazy / silly for my liking.
@@klumzing it's for new players, game isn't gonna survive just keeping the soon to be grandad playerbase.
@@metalsadman fair enough, well it's good to see them changing it up at least, even if i don't like some of the changes.
omg that side step into jet upper was beautiful. I miss this style of Tekken so much
Top tier content as expected Phi, hope to see more :)
These dudes are cracked to this day. Neither of them are exactly old men but they are pushing their 40's. You'd think their reflexes would start taking a bigger hit than it has.The core tekken 7 systems have done more to harm their gameplay (however slightly) than age has.
This is frame by frame analysis, that's the very best and super fun. Awesome. Thank you.
This what u call a content and that is what u call a fighting game and lords of fighting game.
They doin more math, psychologicaly and hypothesis than a math teacher.
W content keep it up.
I think it's worth noting how much actual game play is happening. No cut scenes or over drawn cinematic. I fucking miss DR so much
been putting out bangers lately mane. god bless.
I'd love to see more of this type of content
I loved this game! My favorite Tekken by far. I still remember me, my roommate, and Anakin holding 3 of the Top 5 positions on the online leaderboards for a loooong time. Great times!
I remember ziggyfeld was no.1 online with marduk.
@@sadetwizelve yeah he came later. That boy used to come in there tryna tackle EVERYBODY! But he used to run when saw us 🤣 🤣🤣
My profiles were M.E.-R3D_ATL, Trash of Atlanta, Bill Cosby, and fswqertyii (something like that) lol
I remember taking him to the final round despite me not knowing how to break throws, and T5DR's garbage netcode.@@sadetwizelve
@@sadetwizelve Holy crap, you just blew my mind haha. Havent thought of that name in ages. I was always in the Top 100 back in DR, and I can still remember a lot of names. There was also Centerfold, who was actually legendary Tag player Slips if I remember correctly.
@@Skkra I also remember MadDogJin...Probably the best hwoarang player ever.
Oh god this bring back old memories and the obstacles we needed to overcome to get just decent in this game. Only the OG will understand the stress in breaking 1+2 grabs. so freaking fast.
T5 is when they started slowing down the timing for throw breaks
Genuinly infuriating that we have so many people fighting against a competitive in-depth experience. I am afraid that we will have the same experience with T8 as we do with sf6 right now. A great casual experience that receives tons of praise making the game seem great on a surface level, but then a whole bunch of problems at the higher levels and an overall garbage ranked/competative experience.
Exactly, and even the casuals are saying it’s boring now lol it’s a lose lose
Just don’t buy the game, honestly if you want things to change you gotta vote with your wallets,
fuck the competitive scene
@@Shodan130 _"Just don’t buy the game, honestly if you want things to change you gotta vote with your wallets"_
The real world doesn't work like that. It didn't even work when capitalists poisoned atmosphere with lead by adding lead to gasoline and paint at the start of 20th century. Look it up, it's a real story. So, even letting people know that lead is bad and telling them not to buy gas with it didn't help.
You know what helped? Letting the government(the people who can do something about it: change the laws) know and 2 decades of fights in courts and then a law that banned lead.
Same can be done here: letting "the government"(the people who can do something about it: change the laws of the game) know again and again and again, and fighting for the changes.
"voting" with your wallet never works. You can look up stories about how seat belts became mandatory and if voting with your wallet had anything to do with it, or how forcing car manufacturers making cars, so that blueprints and spare parts are available to 3rd party repair shops, so the car manufacturer doesn't have a monopoly on repairing their own cars. You know what had a real effect? Regulations, laws. Not voting with your wallet.
@@Shodan130using your wallet to vote for less of what you like, at lower quality because less funding and company trust
Movement IS gatekeepy though. *And that's a good thing.* Fighting games imo need a balance of easy to pickup, hard to master mechanics and tricky to pick up, even trickier to master mechanics
Fighting games should be hard to pickup and hard to master
@@qweqweqwadcscnah
scrub@@jspantonio8807
Skillgating something as basic as moving is garbage.
@@cosmicspider2 then make the movement techs easier? its not skillgating its just depth to the movement mechanics.
Bro, seeing a character run up to you that quickly is just anxiety inducing 😂
Movement back then was scary to deal with, damn
That "hypnosis confidence" search history made me LOL :D
this may be the greatest analysis of high-level play i have ever seen. hands down.
Being an old boomer that played in tournaments during T1 and T5DR it's awesome seeing you watch old Tekken and analyzing how different of a game it was than T7. I told my friend after playing the beta for T8 that the sidestepping reminded me more of T5DR.
What's also worth mentioning is Knee moving around and trying to mess Qudans' head up and bait hiswhiff using Bryan's taunt cancels.
This ^^^ well spotted
“I’m glazing” took me out
Prime Knee is arguably the best player to ever do it! Like a freaking machine
Super cool brake down PhiDX, awesome vid
it would be awesome to get more analysis of OG tekken, though that's probably hard to do without having been an OG hence why Speed's first video is so important
Awesome video, such an interesting analysis
Great breakdown, really helps explain the classic "Tekken 5DR was the last great tekken" that you hear from time to time.
a beginner here: I don't mind movement to be a key factor in this game. I even like that concept. The only "problem" I have is things like the korean backdash or any animation cancellation for that matter. Not the resulting options it gives the player, but the input requirement and the training. To me it feels like you want to get good at something like bowling and the developers of the bowling ball put the 3 holes in the ball (normal back dash) but left in a 4th hole by accident which would allow you to dual wield the bowling ball but you have to stand in an unnatural and hold the ball in a weird position. I don't critize the player who learned the technique and got to the point of executing strike after strike, but I do find it weird that the developer would not consider the dual wielding of the bowling ball a viable strategy and design the bowling ball around that strategy. but, oh well. I still enjoy the game (Tekken, not bowling) at my own rank. Maybe it is that it fascinates me that they leave all these animation cancellations in and made it a feature instead of a bug. I can even understand if you would say that Tekken got its success because of it. That the extended learning curve to get better at the game that comes with it, is what keeps the game interesting for so many different players :)
started out as a "rant", ended up with acceptance, but after I wrote the whole fucking essay, I didn't want to delete it. And since it is not the chat of Aris, I don't think I risk banishment :)
Part of the behavior you see is emergent from the natural rhythm that the KBD imposes on the gameplay. It's quite beautiful at a high level how it all plays out
@@VoicesofHonour the concept of fighting game combos started off as frame-cancel glitches in SF2. But yeah, I hate it as well when unintuitive inputs result in an illogical outcome. That's why Tekken is my favorite fighting game though, it has the least of that. All the other fighting games are riddled with that plague even more.
Speedkicks has sum great vids. Very insightful
T5 was the most "Tekken" out of all the games. You definitly had the most freedom in all aspects of the game. Unfortunately when I played it years ago I was way too shit to appreciate that :D
My ultimate dream is for tekken 5 dr to be released on steam with the 5.0 story mode, graphic fixes on the stages that were super blurry and a modern online mode. All I could ever ask for man. All that aside amazing video!
Just get an emulator man
@@molamola5260 I have it emulated but just those little extra things I mentioned that playing on an emulator lacks would go so far for me personally
@@molamola5260Does emulator have good online? Is there a lot of players? Yeah, it needs to be released on steam.
Also add the missing moves from tekken 7 to Tekken 5 Dr
just ask for a new game at this point
I loved this video! And would love to see more detailed breakdowns in the future. I do want to provide some pushback however in terms of the narrative of this video. Mainly, in Tekken 7 we've gotten to see the meta revolution caused by Arslan and other Pakistani players. I can't say for certain as I only casually played DR, but from a post-arslan meta perspective, it seems to me that a lot of the gameplay between knee and qudans had some waste/excessiveness to it. For example, knee's approach to qudans hinged on reads that was carefully set up around a jab/movement mind game, but watching arslan (or ulsan) now for example, I think he would have been much more forceful and oppressive on qudans mental stack, forcing string and frame mixups on top of movement and adaptation. But maybe this is only possible because of the strength of characters in T7, not sure
There was a time when I watched a T7 match and I laughingly said the game looked 2D. This video explains exactly why in a very entertaining way. Thank you.
It kinda needs to be. It's like 2.5D in a 3D environment since you have to look at your character from the side.
Tekken 5 DR is probably my favorite Tekken. Watching Knee's Bryan, Quadans' Devil Jin, JDCR's Heihachi, and those old Tekken Zaibatsu combo music videos by Castel, the best times for me.
Thanks, Phi! I surely couldn't have read the same suubtitles on my own.
The insane thing about this game and the high level players playing at that meta is that these players can adapt in the span of literally a few micro seconds. It's like playing chess at light speed. Many casual observers and even long time players cant appreciate that kind of insane hand eye coordination and quick thinking on the fly.
Not just quick thinking either, but programmed instinct that goes even faster than thinking
SO sick
@@PhiDX wow just WOW I cant imagine how fast their thinking and sense for the game is. Just almost beyond words.
From Peppegen 7 to Kekkuga 8 with overpowered launchers all over the place and +5 to +7 on hit lows and mids on block that frame trap into nh/ch launchers that also track and prevent movement. What a series.
Subbed for this kind of content!
Excellent breakdown. Been praying at nights for T5DR on PSN but I think the good Lord is too busy perfecting his KBD.
Extremely smart breakdown of this match. Admittedly I didn't understand this back then, but wow. Excellent video!
I was around for the arcade era,a lot of you that started with 6 or ttt2 likely wouldn't have been able to handle it. You really had to be good back then and every game cost! You couldn't cheat with a lag switch or rage quit or choose who you wanted to play.
True. Rage quite once, well you had a bad day. Do it more and no one will play with you or even let you in. Too bad we don't have that option online to just block users of appearing in your online queue.
I've seen this fight when it originally happened. I saw Speedkidkcs breakdown and I've never understood the fight like this. I don't know what I was watching before this video.
Great video, Phi. I hear people say "they nerfed movement" a lot, but there aren't a whole lot of analytical videos about the differences across games. I'm curious about how it was changed from 5>6>TTT2>T7, and what other system changes contributed to the feeling that movement got a lot worse.
It's a lot of things honestly. I can't give an in depth explanation cus I'm bout to start work but I'd respond to this a bit later
They actually increased the tracking on moves themselves and didn't change the movement itself. That's how it changed, that's why in T5 Bryan stepped left DJ's b,f+2 and in T7 Bryan would get hit: in T5 DJ didn't rotate towards bryan and in T7 DJ rotates towards the opponent.
its hard to quantify, and many times it can seem like the differences aren't noticeable (certain moves are evaded the same way across games). but you can really feel it in the leniency you are afforded. a lot of t7 moves can't be evaded with a small sidestep and you have to commit to a full sidestep/sidewalk.
19:40 In Tekken 7 it's impossible to ss anything after holding to your guts like that. Such hit stuns immobilize the player. Also later 19:54 an impossible step. F4 would track.
This is a different level I never see it like that
You have discovered the beauty of movement
@@ali09gaming58 yes and it need super human reflexes
Sometimes I wish I was born 10 years earlier so I could've been active when DR was about. Need this game on steam
Man I miss late night T5 battles with my cousins on the weekends
jang iksu tekken tag 1 is the og footage battle of tekken
It’s interesting that you stated that realignment is better in 8. I was playing law and in my attempts to dash forward and realign with the opponent I seemed to have problems but maybe it’s a law thing. In any case the movement in 8 is promising
All the tekken games been broken after 5, 5 was the best and truly skilled tekken fighter
Yep, T7's problems are:
Too good properties on many moves:
Everything either ch or nh launches. And then also these nh/ch launchers(electrics, all magic4s, nina qcf1, etc) recover as they were pokes with low reward, like jabs and d/f+1s.
Then there are power lows like Bryan's qcb3 that deal big damage and give big frame advantage on hit.
And then most moves also track both sides, of course.
I need to learn tekken movement After this
Please analyze Knee vs Qudans at Tokyo Tekken masters T7 where Knee picked Lili. You can also look at the run up to that moment. That would be sick!
knee was abusing matchup there, nothing qudans can do when he's a dj loyalist.
@@metalsadman "nothing Qudans can do"
This is the equivalent of a chess match
Gate keeping is good, I have seen too many games and franchises ruined because they opened the gates.
Yessir im from the ol g era, can def feel diff when playing online lol some newer ppl dont know how to fight if they cant get a juggle.
This Set Is So Sick
I pray Murray and Harada don't see this shit. They're probably wondering what else to take out the game
"Hypnosis confidence" 13:29
😂
Hey man whatever it takes LOL
New sub here and loving your content
5:55 was deffo a missed input electric
We need a tekken collection, with all previous tekkens for pc with online. Atleast tekken 4 and 5dr. So we can have some different tekken for a change
I MISS REAL TEKKEN
LONG LIVE T3 Tag1 & T5
honorable mention Tekken 2 i love you
i think it was around when noctis was introduced that i remembered kinda disliking the direction of t7. stuff like noctis ff1+2, king ff+1 and asuka ff+3 were all these big mids that tracked and were safe on block just kinda made it scary to approach. i think asuka's ff+3 was buffed around that time too if i'm not mistaken D:
Josie ff4, Fahk jet kick, Zafina 1+2, kuni SET 2....
@@PhiDX ah josie ff4, i remember that being -8 and Ling could b+1 punish. if only i could find them LMAO
hold on, zaf 1+2 on its own is safe??? o-o
@ScorchedEclipse nah, but the punish mix makes it risky to attempt to punish
ooh
The best tekken requires most skill . Movement is everything in this game.
i just subscribed, great video
i love videos like these :D
Thanks Guy
Let me tell you a that to this day I still play Tekken 5 DR and TTT1-- those two games are some of the best training tools to be great at fighting games the same way as third strike and soul caliber 2 can.
I fucked with it till you said 3rd strike, 3s players are fucking garbage and have no fundamentals
pog
coming from T8 a few months in, it did not deliver on any movement promises
watching and learning how actually important movement is in tekken outside of 7 and what it looks like in 8 im realizing im gonna get super washed when tekken 8 comes out.
But with DR tier movement, wouldnt moves have to be low commitment in order to be good because the risk of getting stepped is so high?
This is why TTT2 is still my fav game: it better movements like T5 but more a modern game
Tag 2 is basically for people that like the absurdities of Tekken and also the positives of classic Tekken
Me and my friends still play tekken 5 or 6 in an arcade that has it and I miss the movement whenever I switch back to 7
Hey. Which arcade?
@@Breeze06 mall arcades in the philippines the tekken 7 cabinets were gone after the pandemic only the t6 and tag 2 cabinets remained
@@Dyleniz Cool. Idky but I was under the impression that mvc was the only fighting game being played there.
If you like vids like this, check out Aris breakdown of some Tekken Tag 1 matches and Tekken 4 matches. Super fascinating stuff before he went full stoner lol
T5DR Online heads... who remembers Ziggyfield? lmaoo
I wish they’d bring back things like 8f jabs and get rid of rage arts, a far more interesting way to differentiate characters.
Your breakdowns of Tekken are so entertaining thanks for the entertainment man! From a fellow Noctis main 🫡🫡
Tekken 5 Fans: TTT2 combo damage is dumb,
Tekken 5 combos without wall:
Do Jang Iksu vs Park Yong Tekken Tag 1❤
I've always found the ability of good players to forward dash in another good player's face while incorporating sidesteps and fuzzies etc. to be infinitely more impressive than what we ended up with in t7. Obviously no shade to you or any of the other backdash enjoyers, its been proven to be optimal. I like the optimism for t8 movement as well, at least when we aren't talking about heat stuff... lol. Good video "fast backdash man"
Movement is cool, in any fighting game. Don't you ever call it gatekeeping.
I used to really hate the KBD and thought it was a stupid mechanic. But now I realize it's place since it adds risk to backdashing consecutively. If people could backdash quick af and block the whole time that would be lame. Also, being able to actually do it comfortably now makes me a bit biased in favor of it, lol.
It's fun!!
@@PhiDX Yep. Same with wavedashing and electrics. It's addicting.
More sidestepping is good, backdashing like there's no tomorrow is boring. I like that they are taking that approach in t8. I can't remember what tourney it was, but the match was Steve against Miguel. Miguel would take life lead and then he was trying to back dash until timer run out. Eventually he won by doing that. It was on an infinite stage, which helped him do that and it is one way to win, but to me that's not interesting. Backdashing twice for example to make the opponent wiff or just play the mind game of spacing is OK, but infinite fast back dashes that let you cover a lot of distance and playing catch up is lame.
Sephiblack vs another Steve. Steve one shots, and in rage gains a whiff punish one shot. The problem is the attack design and movement options, the backdash is the symptom
@@PhiDX In my experience Steve is hard to sidestep but if they give you a better way to do that and force you to do that more often instead of backdashing I'm all for it.
after viewing the t7 analysis in this vid it seems like t7 would benefit from being played on a shorter timer, the pressure of time running out is what leads to the eventual 1/3 damage lol. i think if we had 40 second rounds like t3 it might help get the aggressive play that the devs want without crazy mechanics.
Do an analysis on Gordon Ramsey's burger
Smile
also another trivia qudans that time has a tunnel carpal syndrone that is why he is a bit reserved in his final matches in tekken he needs operation in his tunnel carpal syndrone and for that he is a bit held back to the point he needs to change his wave wave method of pressing..
people want to play their mind games with attacks and not movement since its more intuitive. fighting with your attacks makes sense to players, fighting with movement does not. If tekken 8 can do a good job of helping players feel confident about moving, then they will really be on to something. Tekken movement is the only system that no other fg can compare to.
Interested if you still think tekken 8 has this better movement you where hoping for. I think for me it does but I've come in and out of tekken but never really played ranked before so probably my opinion on the previous games doesn't hold much value.
Yeah it does. This game is so hard lol
Sometimes, I hate the argument about movement and how much they nerfed it in tekken 8. I think it's a clever Idea for movement to be different among characters based on their weight that it actually makes sense. I just hope some other light characters like Kazuya get their movement buffed.
Sidestep is buffed on Tekken 8 to almost TTT1 levels. BB input has been buffed to almost have the same speed as KBD but not too much to replace it completely
kazuya is not light
@@twelve1844 but I think they should buff the backdash of some other characters more for space control.
If Kazuya is going to have no pokes, no throws, no panic moves, no range, slow moves, and option select SSL to wipeout his key moves; then he should have the best sidestep and backdash of all the male characters, end of story. I'm totally fine if he has about three moves but then has movement to give you all your options.
@@NYG5yes , yes, and yes! To be bad I don’t think Mishimastar would dare allow it. Smh devs