Terryl Givens and Nathaniel Givens On Faith - Into The Headwinds, Part 1
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- Опубліковано 21 жов 2024
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Such A Great Discussion!
When do we really know what we believe? Is our belief what we say or even think? Or is what we believe revealed when our intuition is running our behavior?
Using the metaphor of the Rider and the Elephant, many think their "self" is simply the Rider. But the Elephant is actually running your life.
Reason can only take us so far. According to Terryl Givens and Nathaniel Givens, an overemphasis on rationality detracts us from discovering our true beliefs.
Does faith require evidence?
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wow, really value nathaniel’s take on what science actually is and that the scientific method is in fact not so much a thing as is the scientific attitude. david berlinski, the great science historian, addresses this in his book “the devil’s delusion.” and the frame of an attitude of humility is wonderfully useful and helpful in confronting what’s painfully missing in such sophomoric approaches by hitchens, dawkins, harris, et al that dominate so much of current cultural conversation. thx, you guys!!
Thank You! Such Clarity ~
Glad it was helpful!
I love listening to super smart people!
I am currently reading this and I am a bit taken aback, because so much of it is aligning with things that those who teach controlled remote viewing use in their instruction.
I like how Terryl points out that those in antiquity were not unsophisticated biting followers who just excepted what they were taught on the resurrection of Christ..
This always gets me. When some talk of the ancients as if they were primitive minded. As if there was no sophistication in their thoughts. I agree.
I appreciated the insights they shared into these topics, especially when they said that one's faith (belief) is really ingrained when one has to make sacrifices to prove it.
That being said, "my elephant" can't help but feel something a bit off about how they present these topics. Something fake. And I just can't figure out why I feel this way.
Next time you do a show talking about the secular nones, if you do one, I would be happy to come on and represent my "none" position. There was a lot of talking about what "them" and how "they" think and believe that you were off the mark and it might be useful if you want to understand.
Marti
Love haidt.
Joseph Smith taught that “a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has the power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.”
The book The Master and His Emissary would slip right into this conversation with a huge positive effect.
faith crisis come from the absence of deep experiences : experiences with miracles,revelations , communication with the angelic realm and divine being. of course people will dought at one point when these experiences arent present in their lives except from book. faith isnt practice. what is practice is religion,:go on your knees ,pray this much, dress like this, take sacrement etc etc. people operate in their physical /mental realm and do not use the power of their spirit to flex events, and such. who take the time to command nature; stop tornado on command, command it to rain, foresee events . when the last time someone tried to command a mountain to move or a tree. that lever of will doesnt come without practice. we have no training in these thing ,we can only expect the least of performance from our faith. good show, tkx
Fabulous discussion!!!
I don't think faith is a commitment to something just because. It's a decision to act out your best guess without knowing for sure if you are correct. If you don't think the church is true, it is not faith to continue acting like it is. It's only faith when you think it's true. Faith when I left meant telling people I was no longer going to be participating. I wasn't exactly sure it was the right thing to do, but I had faith that being honest with myself about what I believed and aligning my beliefs with my actions was the right thing to do.
I like to think that belief and faith are twe different branches on the same limb. Where faith is belief, but it is different in that faith also includes action. This, we can believe something, but faith is when that belief leads us to action.
The word Believe (Be-Lieve) became really interesting to me when I studied its etymology. The suffix "lieve" comes from the latin word "Creer", which means "Made and put in heart" and the prefix "Be" is used as an intensifier as in, "Beloved" (extra loved), "Befriend", etc. So be-lieve has additionally meaning thinking of it as "Extra Heart".
Alex Trebec once said, "Don't tell me what you believe, I watch how to act and draw my own conclusions".
I do however, think that we often connect our faith, even our lived actions, to the "What", the propositional claims we hold to, more than the "Who".
I have come to think of faith more as "Faithfulness" or dedication and commitment to a relationship. My commitment to a relationship is not subject to a series of truth claims that, if ever challenged or changed, should be instant dealbreakers, that would be putting my faith more in the what than the who.
This was fascinating and thought provoking! I'd have to listen to it a couple of more times to not have it go over my head but am looking forward to the next discussion and the book.
Fantastic interview ending on a pregnant question
Glad you enjoyed it. Both guests are very bright and articulate.
I’ve been concerned that there is a progressive, liberal approach to the gospel. Seen in other books.
Excellent intellectual insight! Outstanding information for working out the grey matter. Thank you for being a captain in this arena. Good stuff!!
Thank you.
Bought the book about a week ago. Looks great.
Hope you enjoy it!
@@CwicShow Another wonderful interview! It gave me much to think through. Appreciate you, sir.
@@shoup_group Thank you!
This may have nothing to do with this particular episode but I have a question. Can you, someone tell me what the deal was with the Gay Mens Chorus singing for the Washington DC Temple lighting ceremony? I’m really disturbed about it. I would like some answers, cuz I’ve been have literal nightmares over it.
Sounds like you should talk to a therapist about your sexuality if it’s caused nightmares.
Just an idea: perhaps by having them sing for it. It created an opportunity to share the Gospel of Jesus with them.
Is your objection because they are non believers or cos they are gay?. Gay people are children of God just like everyone else. And deserve opportunities to hear the Gospel.
As a convert . Who happens to be gay. I can tell you, Christians need to be less fearful of lgbtqia people. We are not "the other" .
We are your friends, workmates, brothers, sisters, relatives. Perhaps more of us would accept the Gospel if people treated us better. Not to mention, maybe we would stop exiting the gospel if people treated us better.
And I'm not talking about justifying sin. I'm talking about having us as Covenant keeping brothers and sisters in the gospel of Jesus Christ
O also......they are a great choir!. Why wouldn't we want them?!
@@Sayheybrother8 common response. Trying to attack sexuality, when someone mentions their objections or questions .
Your disgust for homosexuality is normal and natural. Don’t worry about what these “intellectuals” says.
Pray for everyone's Wellbeing, but recognize some things are against God's Nature. (Our Nature)). Some practices are unhealthy. Wise up
This is perfect Greg... when Nathaniel was talking about the "cost"... I was thinking of those who struggle in the Spirit... meaning, if you slack on your studies or obligations to the Savior, you lose the Spirit and feel distanced. I went through this years ago, my kids as well... you have to lose something precious to know you want it back, sometimes. Then you struggle at every cost to get it back. It's also a sort of conversion and being reborn, if you will. Great conversation here. Thank you. Your questions are so important in this interview.
I appreciate that.
I find his argument about the 2nd coming and 401k related to the 2nd coming a bit of a stretch-- he is speaking on an assumption that “the world is going to end” meaning that people all live without money or savings. I don’t think that. Maybe eventually it will come to that, but when Christ comes I personally believe there will be a LOT of missionary work and a lot of good people living on this earth who don’t belong to the Church of Jesus Christ but are not murderers or liars or thieves, etc. who says that banks will universally cease to function, or that missions won’t need to be funded? I hope my meaning is clear; that is to say, I see no disconnect between believing Christ will come in 20 years and saving for one’s future.
I totally agree with you and if you study the second coming and what has been taught about it, that is what is taught. There will be people of all religious beliefs who will live together during the millennium so to think that everyone will live commerce free is incorrect. Commerce will continue but will be completely fair and honest because that is part of living in a terrestrial world, aka honesty.
I felt this way as well. I get the point Nathanial was trying to make, but in that circumstance, one does not need to stop paying into his 401K to show his belief of the imminence of the Savior's coming, especially since his friend was only "pretty certain" about it rather than completely knowing. A more apt example would be if he had asked his friend the questions: "How is your food storage? Are you praying and studying the gospel every day to prepare for his coming spiritually?" And depending on the answers, that would have proven his point much better.
It's like the people continuing to obey the law of Moses, even though they knew Jesus would come to fulfill it. "So, you know Christ is coming to fulfill the law...why don't you prove it to me by completely throwing it aside!" It just doesn't jive.
12:00 "Being a Christian gives you social capital." Really? I would change this to "'Saying' your are a Christian gives you social capital" or "Acting like a Christian gives you social capital."
I was really enjoying this conversation when it abruptly ended. Is there a part II that will drop soon?
Part 2 coming in a few hours. Somehow the end of the original file corrupted. Never had that happen before. There is another 20+ minutes to the interview
Just a thought. If we are going to talk about “faith” in any real sense, it seems to me that we have to define it clearly. The reason I say this is that we do exercise faith every day inmost of what we do. When I flick a light switch I have faith that the light is going to turn on. The same with starting my car. Numerous other examples apply including going to the store to buy food. We have faith that the food we seek is going to be there. Until it isn’t, or until the light doesn’t come on, or the car doesn’t start. Then something else kicks in.
If we are going to talk about faith in a religious sense, I really believe that we need to start with “faith in Jesus Christ” and not just some faith. Why?
According to the laws of nature you and I should not exist. The Laws of Thermodynamics establish that fact. Yet here we are. That means that something, or someone, had to overcome those two laws in order for there to be existence of things. In reality, I doubt that even those two laws would exist and there would be “nothingness”.
The principle that Jacob describes in 2 Ne.9:4 where our “flesh must away” and then in verse 7 “this corruption could not put on in corruption” agrees with the Laws of Thermodynamics. The only thing that gives purpose to life and existence is that faith that assures us that we will live again. It is that “infinite and eternal sacrifice” described again in Alma 34:10 that Jacob goes on to describe in 2Ne. 9. Once we realize that it is that sacrifice that overcomes the laws of nature, then we can begin to exercise the faith described in Alma 32 and clarified by the seed defined in Alma 33.
If we understand who the Saviour is, and what he “really” did for us, then we have the beginnings of real faith and can grow from there because it gives us purpose. To start anywhere else, to me, seems to be like wishing upon a star, having no solid foundation.
Then suddenly faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism for the remission of sin, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by one having authority takes on a whole new meaning. And as Elder Maxwell said, this ought to haunt us, because that is all there really is. The degree to which we adhere to the covenants we make determines, in a very real sense, the nature of our existence here and hereafter. It is the law by which all things are governed.
May I also add, if we look at what happened to Enoch and his people in establishing Zion, and compare it to 4Ne. where Zion was established for 200 years and then fell apart, then as Hugh Nibley defines it lazy thinking took over. So it is never easy. We see how they lived for 200 hundred years fasting, praying, meeting, studying, was too hard for those in 4 Ne. but was easier for Enoch’s people because they were more to committed to the hard thinking and doing. President Nelson’s “HearHim” and “Come Follow Me” programs become more and more prophetic and revelatory for each of us.
Great Gregg, enjoy Terryl, yet I think his stance on his easiness of being a Christian in politics on the left is not an easy one, although I get the point.
Why is it easier to be a Christian on the right than the left? This assumption seems to be at the heart of our problems.
I LOVE this man and his POV! HE is the reason I started to see things differently in the Gospel.
I do have to say though...LOL
Seriously though...
We take too much time talking about the theoretical faith (The Noun) and not the actionable faith (The Verb).
Theory belongs in the realm of the academics.
Action belongs in the realm of the sciences.
I say sciences, because the scriptures constantly teach us to plant and nourish seeds. We can't keep talking about what a seed should produce and expect it to produce it. It will remain a seed until it is nourished.
It's called a learning curve because, though the scriptures have shown countless examples of what the seeds look like...walking on water, healing the sick, raising the dead, "even the very trees did obey us...and lest I forget, 4 prominent examples of what repentance really is. Saul, Enos, Lamoni, and Alma (I could include the sons of Mosiah simply because of Ammon but it's not direct though inferred strongly), we have treated it like the exception to the rule. However, I testify that is NOT the case. IT IS THE RULE.
And that's the problem with conversations like this that focus so heavily on the theoretical elephants in the room.
Though they are amazingly accurate talking about the difference between faith, belief, and non-belief.
Again, I LOVED the interview for what it is and I do hope part 2 has more about the VERB of faith. Because, in the end, all the philosophies of men will not provide one grain of wheat until you actually grow the wheat. LOL.
Way too complicated. Anyone trying to intellectually define faith needs look no further than the total trust and submission of a small child in his or her parents. Faith at it's purest form.
Faith is a bonding along with the works to maintain it.
Faith = love
It is an academic exploration on faith. Different people need different messages. I found it both intellectually stimulating and spiritually edifying. I'll be using a couple of these conversations for my upcoming program on testimony and the philosophies of men.
@@CwicShow ... Agreed Greg. Different messages for different philosophies and another interesting upload. I enjoyed it also and look forward to your next. I guess what I mean is, too complicated for me.
I like the simple version as I've thought myself out of a job more than once in my lifetime due to personal philosophies. lol :>)
I agree it should be rather simple. The only difference I see when it comes to our spiritual selves we should assess whether or not our belief or faith to be saved is in science, a man, group of men, institution, social construct or God.
@@CwicShowthis push back is why we can’t have these wonderful discussions and conversations in Sunday School. Thank you so much for providing a safe place for those who would like to think a little a little more about our eternal prospects. Like they say for some it’s an inch deep and mile wide others a mile deep and an inch wide. We should try to be somewhere in the middle.
@@Sayheybrother8 ... How about all of the above?