If its downhill and it has an ebike motor for climbing, then weight isn't a huge issue. Where steel falls flat is cross country. Steel flexes better and is less likely to snap it's frame.
1:16 "Despite its strenght, it's not overly stiff". Steel stiffness (Young's modulus) is three times that of aluminum. That's a topic beaten to death on all "steel is real" discussions. The reason why steel frames are "springy" is that density of steel its also three times that of Aluminum, so in order to build frames with a reasonable weight, you need to use smaller tube cross sections. You can still do that because 4xxx steel alloys (and other proprietary concoctions) are stronger (higher yield strength) than typical weldable Al (some 6000 and some 7000 series Al alloys). Everything related to frame compliance depends almost exclusively on cross section size and shape, the only factors that influence its second moment of area. So, steel alloys are strong enough to deform more at the same percentage of ultimate allowable stress than Al alloys, hence the compliance.
Having tried both aluminum and steel hardtail , steel is real , way better ride . If you’re going for weight go aluminum, if you want more compliance and a nicer ride go steel .
“Steel is real” is real. I had a demo Marin Pine Mountain for a few months and was amazed how I didn’t feel like the trails were beating me up. I did a particular downhill trail only once on it that I had done countless times on my full suspension bike and I was only seconds off my PR. Pretty impressive. Anyway, great in depth comparison!
Smaller cross section tubing = less stiffness = more compliance = more confort. Smaller tubing possible due to higher overall steel strenght and weldability on thin walls.
The extra weight has a lot to do with it. The heavier the bike , the less it's going to bounce or vibrate as its simply more planted to the ground as it's called gravity.
I bought into the steel craze in '08. Built a fully high end steel hardtail, sram x0, avid ultimate, chris king headset and hubs, mavic rims, top end fox fork and thomson seatpost and a carbon bar. So pretty much at the max on every level at the time. Frame consist of True Temper OX Platinum main triangle and Butted CroMoly rear triangle. Now it is about to end up parted out for the kids bikes for sale or whatever. The bike just feels so sluggish. I had an aluminum decatlon sram x3 bike at the same time, and that despite having a crap fork and a drivetrain from the bargin bin, it felt so much more nippy. BUT. My steel bike is an XC hardtail, not a trail bike. So maybe steel is more optimal for trail? I don't know, but it was the one and only shot I had at steel (outside of the steel bikes of my childhood).
There are different kinds of steel, aluminum, carbon, magnesium, and titanium. Different tube shapes, wall thicknesses, construction, and manufacturing processes. Various geometries. Components add a dynamic to the whole picture. All these factors can highly mitigate the general assumptions. All the best.
I have both steel and aluminium frames and I like the both in different ways, there's a place for different metals in different settings, it's all about what you prefer to ride!
Paused the video just to say that I really appreciate the not so intrusive ad integration on the video. First time seeing it and I appreciate the non interruption of the build. Great video by the way!
The lower stack on the aluminum frame was probably allowing a little more front end traction on that one corner were the steel bike got a little squirrelly. Its easier to weight the front end with lower stack, but the high stack helps on steep decents where you don't want your weight over the bars.
When I used to sell Marin bikes 20 years ago - they did both steel and alu bikes. The highest end race frame was extremely light, stiff and fast - our shops top rider returned it after 3 races saying it had gone “all floppy”. Metal fatigue is a real thing - even today. But it does not really happen to the same extent in steel frames.
@@EvansMTBSaga I'm not familiar with this floppy term but when I used to ride bmx alot I would Crack any aluminum frame I rode usually where the top tube meets the seat post, but steel frames like s and m with the 4130 chromoly was perfect
I went from riding titanium (Merlin and Litespeed) exclusively for 23 years (1990 - 2013) to a custom steel Coconino (made in Flagstaff, AZ). Night and day. The steel Coconino is amazing and super fun.
Raced a vintage Saracen Kili last weekend, 1990s race excellence. Got ahead of quite a few guys on modern mtbs by halfway through the first lap until the chain snapped 😂 Not heavy at 23lbs ish with Pace forks. 26 inch wheels are a disadvantage but I'm an aggressive rider and happy to cane it over roots and rocks. Having raced xc in the 1990s I guess steel is normal, alloy was expensive and carbon a dream, now I have a collection of old bikes including high end Cannondale and Trek , the steel Kili is the best so far. Cheers.
I've always ridden steel bikes. I've been riding a Kona Honzo ESD for about 2 years now and I have to say its one of the best bikes I've ridden. I've tried out a few of my friends carbon or aluminum bikes, but the feel you get from steel is, in my opinion, alot better than either alternatives. Next you should try to find a titanium frame! That's one material I haven't been able to test out personally, and I would love to see your opinion on it.
Steel, AL, TI, really don't care if one is faster or slower in reality. But mentally, if it feels faster or smoother( but not too smooth tonfeel disconnected from the trail)is what matters Perspective of enjoyability It's kind of like why I like a hardtail over a full suspension. Full suspension dumbs down the trail, and you just feel slower. Another reason I went custom soft tail... faster, but still feel like a supple hardtail instead of a disconnected FS
The steel frame may need a break in period before it rides better. I know dirtbikes with steel frames “break in” after about 10 hours of riding. I think it has something to do with the endurance limit of the steel. It may be something interesting to look into but you may feel no difference. Great video!
Something that people really need to be aware of when deciding is longevity. Steel alloy parts can be designed to lower stresses to a point where the material will never fail if kept corrosion/damage free. Aluminum on the other hand has no fatigue limit and will fail eventually; Even if kept in perfect condition with no dings, dents, etc.
Built my Forge about 2 months ago and its a beast, it's insane how precise the steering is. I came from a Nukeproof Scout and I think the comparison here is just about spot on. When i saw this video i knew that any other outcome and i'd be unsubscribing 😄
Ill admitt to my shallowness and old age. I just love the look of a thinner tube Steel bikes. Ive owned almost every known frame material and i end up on my steels most.
I've had my Redline Monocog 29 for quite a while and by now the only original parts are the frame, crankset, and a couple other small bits. It is a fantastic machine for several trails in my area with the steel ride being great although it is a LOT harder to tell with the big squishy tires and suspension fork compared to the difference in my steel frame/cf fork road bike vs my aluminum/cf fork road (crits) bike - on skinny high pressure tires and no suspension the difference is pronounced. When sprinting on a steel bike you can feel the BB sway and hardly any of that on the aluminum. Race on alu, train on steel (for road anyway)
I have an old Trek 820 Chromoly frame that I bought new in 2001 at The Bike Hut in Novato CA. I have well over 50k miles on it as a commuter but I also loved to hit every street feature on the way. I had to hang it up last year because the frame is finally fatigued and too flexible. I like to think that if it was aluminum I would have broken it long ago. Now I ride an aluminum 29er and I do love it but I still have feelings for my old Chromoly beast.
I picked up a Norco Torrent S2 and put on a Marzocchi Z1 coil for maximum simplicity and smoothness. With the weather finally starting to improve, you got me really hyped to ride my new steel bike! That Bird is beautiful!
About to build a Ritchey Ultra with carbon parts everywhere, just built a Surly Straggler with drop bars the same way, crazy cool to ride. Steel is real.
That was a great comparison! I love my steel singlespeed but I’ve never really put much time in riding a modern aluminum hardtail. Sounds like I’ll be sticking with steel (or carbon 😝).
My Pop's cheapskate 26er full suspension City MTB we revived is still kicking after we neglected it for 20 years. He passed it on to me . I was originally a 3x6. I welded it with a disk brake mount and I'm about to upgrade it to 38t crank with 10 speed 11+40. And I love it. I don't care about the performance as long as the it's very durable. Like you can throw any punishment on this bicycle.
This frame Looks SICK!!!!!! I would like to purchase one, but was unable to ascertain whether they sell them for the Australian market. My second favourite option would be the Nukeproof Scout, but their store-finder was down, and so I was unable to find out if they sell them in Australia either. I don't remember seeing any Nuke's on the trails... If neither of these are available, what would you recommend for us Aussies?
The only limitation I have found with a good quality steel frame is that it messes with your compass if navigating. Threw me way off course in an adventure race once!
NO. The strength of titanium is negated by the horrible pin welds and frame inconsistency due to how hard it is to bend to spec. The cost isn't even the issue, you could pick one up for less than 1k, and they make compound so the threads don't seize, they just don't hold up like steel and don't weigh any less than aluminum, if it weighs even the same as aluminum, it's going to be weaker.
@@username-mk8gfit all depends on the manufacturer of the frame I‘d say…
3 місяці тому
Steel is real indeed, one of the best ht frames I've had in terms of feel was a 1995 Gary Fisher chromoly, but I currently have a custom chromoly gravel bike that's good too.
I do love steel. The ride is great and I appreciate the thin tubes they look great. With hydroformed or carbon looking like blobs. If not racing it is the choice
I have an 1992 Scott team (Steel butted tange tubes frame) and one Specialized Rockhopper Elite 2023 (A1, aluminum frame) and I fell much more comfortable to ride on the old Scott than the new Specialized due to the frame. Aluminum has elongation around 20%, steel has 45% this will define the ride comfort for sure, nice video.
When switching to the steel did you set the forks up accordingly? You'll need to tinker with the compression and rebound to get the best from the natural feel of the bike.
Yeah I think I increased the low speed rebound by one click. But the fork wasn't feeling great on the aluminum beforehand, but felt great on the steel 😂
I think the shortcomings you encountered are due to the geometry. You should definitely get an on one hello dave it you like steel bikes. Its got to be one of the best out there
@@EvansMTBSaga yeah he used to work for PTBS (local bike shop) which he still may, but I haven’t bumped into him in a while, he may be in corporate for them, but yeah, super chill dude
Steel rules. I will most likely swap my carbon hardtail of a steel one. Just a question of money. I just swaped the carbon fork on my cyclo cross bike. Much better feeling now, but it is significantly more heavy, so nothing for weenies.
I love steel bikes! One of my favorite bikes I've ever owned has been my 1993 Diamondback Apex. Fully rigid, but still very smooth and compliant with 35psi in 26x2.1 tires. I also just absolutely love how steel frames look. Just got my custom Marino steel full suspension frame in a few days ago too, and I'm too excited to get it built up. I'm very interested to see how it compares to my aluminum bikes. It's definitely heavier, at 10.2lbs with a Fox Float and nothing else, but I think that'll even out with the components I'll be installing.
At some point all the Ti, Carbon and Aluminium fans will be curious to ride high-end steel bikes because steel is the root of modern bikes, just like the motor industry,the older they get the more interesting they become to the newer market.
I went from steel(kona unit w 120mm fork) to aluminium hardtail (ragley mmmbop mullet same 120mm fork) I ended swapping the parts back to the steel bike. The steel bike feels like its much more controlled over roots and rocks. The alu bike was a bit like riding a pingpong ball hehe
I’m not an avid mountain biker, but I can familiarize & appreciate your passion & production. Additionally, I’m a big fan of steel, which I hope will be even better with electricity & coils. Baby steps! Liked & subscribed.
Am planning to go to 4130 for future electrified bicycles. Aluminum - what I’m currently running; used trek 4900 frame - tends to fatigue and crack after a while. “A while” tends to happen faster under electrification.
@@dennisyoung4631 Steel or Cromoly is the way to go. Been running a Motorized 2 Stroke bike on an 90's Steel MTB with no issues for more than a year now (had a knee injury which put me off pedaling for a while, after I recovered I still kept it around just for the fun of working and riding it). Also, steel is super easy to reinforce on any good welder.
I have an aluminum Kona Dew that i take on some gnarly single track backpacking and another aluminum Giant escape for commuting. Im into steel as a material , but the price barrier makes it a little difficult.
Thank you for review! Have you heard about Stif Squatch? Pretty interesting bike with geo similar to Bird Forge but with some unique engineering features (flat seatstays and ovalized top tube). It would be geat to see it in hardtail quest, especially comparison with Forge.
Great review keep it coming please. I’d love you compare different steel hard tail frames. Kind of a spin off series. The uk has so many good bike companies who mark steel hard tails. I’d love to see them run against each other
It might be worth looking at the on one hello Dave for season 2 of hardtail quest as it would be quite interesting to see how I holds up to the other bikes
0:47 Super nice addition, to just dedicate a small portion of the video to the history of the technology used, it would be so nice if we could se this on the new videos ! Mega hyped And great video
Hoping you get a chance to review the Honzo ESD. Currently the Forge and ESD are at the top of my next hardtail list, and would love your input on Kona. Love the Content 😎
Well, I've always been an aluminium devotee, but -having a similar curiosity as you- am now building a Hello Dave. Yeah, not the same geo as my Big Al, but don't want to end with two similar bikes. I expect the Hello Dave to be an Enduro monster 😎
I have owned steel, aluminum and carbon. Steel isn't as light but I have found it to be more forgiving on long trails and absorbent of chatter. This makes for less fatigue if you ride all day. The worst is my carbon xc race bike. It is brutal. While it's super light at 24lbs and super fast..it just beats you up on long rides. My body is numb and I want to quit after two hours. Aluminum is inbetweenen the two. Steel is also more durable. This is why BMXers never went to carbon on freestyle Street bikes and hate aluminum as it dents or cracks too easily when dropped. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I still love steel for urban assault city riding and pump tracks.
Not all steel bikes are created equal (nor aluminum.) At 6.6lbs, sounds like it is slightly overbuilt, but good thing it rode well for you. Seat stay diameters, shapes, gussets, and etc will affect ride quality too. You should definitely try more steel frames. I love my steel single speed.
Not much of a difference in ride quality to be honest , although Ti is naturally more springy so it absorbs micro vibrations better , Ti also never fatigues and lasts forever unless the welds break.
you should do a high vs low in categories (dh, xc, trail, enduro) i think that would be sick, example: not all trail riders need huge maguras, vice versa :)
Only a kilo heavier than the aluminium frame isn't bad. I had a cheap bike from Canadian Tire in high school and its total weight was 40 lbs. (I might have been only 100 lbs when I got it...) High quality frames are definitely a cut above.
Great video! I've been on Ti full suss for the last two years now and alu HT. Been working on the Ti HT also, looking forward to that. I'm definitely happy with how steel rides.
I saw a Kona Honzo ESD yesterday at my LBS In that purple/yellow color. No clue how it rides, but aesthetically it's the nicest hardtail I've ever seen.
My old 26" 853 Dean Jester is still the best-feeling MTB I have ever owned. I kind of want to sell my Yeti ARC and pick up something like it now ... thanks. :)
I have a tricked out 1992 KONA Hei Hei Titanium , great bike for what it is , but even a Walmart OZARK Trail will kill it on the trails with modern geometry and larger wheels. My Kona is now reserved for City cycling and rail trails as it's better suited for that style of biking these days , even though in its heyday the Hei Hei was one of the best MTB's that money could buy. I racked up about 2k miles last season on my Hei Hei biking through the city and rail trails , my Esker Hayduke is my hard tail X-country adventure bike these days.
hey Evan, that SRAM crankset, is that the same one that got messed up and you used the helicoil inserts to fix? If so I'm assuming it's still holding up great?
I ride a steel Enduro Hardtail and a steel Dirtjumper and I love the soft but direct feeling. They feel completety comfy and last for like 300 years. Yes, steel is real.
I ride E's but came from MX background. You can make my frame out of tungsten and I wouldn't give a damn. How heavy can you possibly make my bike before it weighs 250lbs like a decent moto? As long as that thing has some juice to help, give me MORE. More weight, more brakes, more suspension. Hey, I like the stability, and crushing my own gravel in front of me.
I've been enjoying the E-Bike quite a bit. At 50lbs, it handles downhill much better than my regular bikes because the weight gives it a ton of stability and a planted feeling
IMO any non-FS bike, other than a XC race bike, I'd go steel. Suspension can provide the forgiveness and suppleness that makes a rider less sensitive to the dampening of frame materials, and is why Steel isn't a must for long legged trail/enduros... However I believe this is the MOST important factor in rigid/semi-rigid bikes. Whether its a cylocross, gravel, DJ/BMX, or trail/hardcore hardtail... the comfort and confidence you gain from taking away the fatigue of the frame osciliations (chatter), will equate IMO to better "rider" performance, regardless of the weight deficit. I don't think think any bike itself would be any 'slower' than another with identical geometry just because of the frame materials.I wouldn't say there is even a tangible traction benefit. Rather the compliance, the ability to mute unwanted vibrations, over duration, is what improves the rider's performance by reducing fatigue and sharpness of impacts. I don't think you can tell me that a 4x bike race can be won/lost due to the frame materials. If you want to ride low/long/slack HTs down the chunder in the pacific northwest, with comfort and confidence... it better be steel. My favs are the Chromag(s), Torrent, Knolly, ESD
Super cool to see an MTB creator local to my area. If I ever see you out on the trails I'd love to show you my bike! I've been slowly upgrading it to turn it into a trail beast!
@@xara7152 It's a marlin 5 gen 1 that I've put a ton of upgrades on! Air fork, dropper post, tires, 1x conversion. shorter cranks, nicer pedals. I've done just about everything to it except for add the OneUp EDC stuff which would be wicked
Just for the record I don't think a power meter can actually compare how efficient a frame is - 150 watts at the crank is 150 watts. To see the difference between frames, suspension being locked out vs unlocked, etc, you need to measure how hard it is for *you* yourself to produce 150 watts at the cranks, which isn't really easily done on a bike
Hey Evan! My name is Asa baker and I am 15 from Nashville TN. I have been riding for 8 years and I am I downhill MTB racer. I have been watching your videos for some time now and have thought it would be the coolest thing ever to catch a few laps with you. And guess what, I will be in Bentonville for a few days for my spring break! I would love for you to show me your favorite spots and catch a few laps, even tow me into "Drop the Hammer" comment on this video and I can give you my email and dates I will be there. I know its a long shot but its 100% worth it. I also have a commencal meta sx sooooo we kinda have to ride. Let me know!!!
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If its downhill and it has an ebike motor for climbing, then weight isn't a huge issue. Where steel falls flat is cross country. Steel flexes better and is less likely to snap it's frame.
I don't wanna hear any more about this "C7-30" chair until you take it down a double black diamond trail.
🤣
🤣
1:16
"Despite its strenght, it's not overly stiff". Steel stiffness (Young's modulus) is three times that of aluminum. That's a topic beaten to death on all "steel is real" discussions. The reason why steel frames are "springy" is that density of steel its also three times that of Aluminum, so in order to build frames with a reasonable weight, you need to use smaller tube cross sections. You can still do that because 4xxx steel alloys (and other proprietary concoctions) are stronger (higher yield strength) than typical weldable Al (some 6000 and some 7000 series Al alloys). Everything related to frame compliance depends almost exclusively on cross section size and shape, the only factors that influence its second moment of area.
So, steel alloys are strong enough to deform more at the same percentage of ultimate allowable stress than Al alloys, hence the compliance.
So comparatively you could say that it's not as stiff.
☝️🤓
4130 Steel is the real deal for bikes.
Having tried both aluminum and steel hardtail , steel is real , way better ride . If you’re going for weight go aluminum, if you want more compliance and a nicer ride go steel .
“Steel is real” is real. I had a demo Marin Pine Mountain for a few months and was amazed how I didn’t feel like the trails were beating me up. I did a particular downhill trail only once on it that I had done countless times on my full suspension bike and I was only seconds off my PR. Pretty impressive. Anyway, great in depth comparison!
Smaller cross section tubing = less stiffness = more compliance = more confort. Smaller tubing possible due to higher overall steel strenght and weldability on thin walls.
The extra weight has a lot to do with it. The heavier the bike , the less it's going to bounce or vibrate as its simply more planted to the ground as it's called gravity.
I bought into the steel craze in '08. Built a fully high end steel hardtail, sram x0, avid ultimate, chris king headset and hubs, mavic rims, top end fox fork and thomson seatpost and a carbon bar. So pretty much at the max on every level at the time. Frame consist of True Temper OX Platinum main triangle and Butted CroMoly rear triangle.
Now it is about to end up parted out for the kids bikes for sale or whatever. The bike just feels so sluggish. I had an aluminum decatlon sram x3 bike at the same time, and that despite having a crap fork and a drivetrain from the bargin bin, it felt so much more nippy.
BUT. My steel bike is an XC hardtail, not a trail bike. So maybe steel is more optimal for trail? I don't know, but it was the one and only shot I had at steel (outside of the steel bikes of my childhood).
There are different kinds of steel, aluminum, carbon, magnesium, and titanium. Different tube shapes, wall thicknesses, construction, and manufacturing processes. Various geometries. Components add a dynamic to the whole picture. All these factors can highly mitigate the general assumptions. All the best.
I have both steel and aluminium frames and I like the both in different ways, there's a place for different metals in different settings, it's all about what you prefer to ride!
Could you maybe elaborate for which setting you use which frame? I'm curious. ^^
Awesome. We're heading out to Bentonville in June and one of the bikes I'm bringing is a Ti hardtail and I plan to try it out at the Castle.
Yeah the castle is where I got the KOM. Fun hub!
I have a 29” full ridged steel and it’s one of favorite Bikes in my fleet.
Paused the video just to say that I really appreciate the not so intrusive ad integration on the video. First time seeing it and I appreciate the non interruption of the build. Great video by the way!
The lower stack on the aluminum frame was probably allowing a little more front end traction on that one corner were the steel bike got a little squirrelly. Its easier to weight the front end with lower stack, but the high stack helps on steep decents where you don't want your weight over the bars.
When I used to sell Marin bikes 20 years ago - they did both steel and alu bikes.
The highest end race frame was extremely light, stiff and fast - our shops top rider returned it after 3 races saying it had gone “all floppy”.
Metal fatigue is a real thing - even today. But it does not really happen to the same extent in steel frames.
I experienced that in BMX. I had several aluminum frames get floppy haha
@@EvansMTBSaga I'm not familiar with this floppy term but when I used to ride bmx alot I would Crack any aluminum frame I rode usually where the top tube meets the seat post, but steel frames like s and m with the 4130 chromoly was perfect
Had my Steel Ragley BluePigRace almost a year now and loving it..
I had one, sold it, it's crap steel with little flex
bought one yesterday
Evan’s MTB video while getting ready for work, yes please.
Even better, I'm at work watching this instead of working😂
I went from riding titanium (Merlin and Litespeed) exclusively for 23 years (1990 - 2013) to a custom steel Coconino (made in Flagstaff, AZ). Night and day. The steel Coconino is amazing and super fun.
Raced a vintage Saracen Kili last weekend, 1990s race excellence. Got ahead of quite a few guys on modern mtbs by halfway through the first lap until the chain snapped 😂
Not heavy at 23lbs ish with Pace forks. 26 inch wheels are a disadvantage but I'm an aggressive rider and happy to cane it over roots and rocks. Having raced xc in the 1990s I guess steel is normal, alloy was expensive and carbon a dream, now I have a collection of old bikes including high end Cannondale and Trek , the steel Kili is the best so far.
Cheers.
I've always ridden steel bikes. I've been riding a Kona Honzo ESD for about 2 years now and I have to say its one of the best bikes I've ridden. I've tried out a few of my friends carbon or aluminum bikes, but the feel you get from steel is, in my opinion, alot better than either alternatives.
Next you should try to find a titanium frame! That's one material I haven't been able to test out personally, and I would love to see your opinion on it.
Steel, AL, TI, really don't care if one is faster or slower in reality.
But mentally, if it feels faster or smoother( but not too smooth tonfeel disconnected from the trail)is what matters
Perspective of enjoyability
It's kind of like why I like a hardtail over a full suspension.
Full suspension dumbs down the trail, and you just feel slower.
Another reason I went custom soft tail... faster, but still feel like a supple hardtail instead of a disconnected FS
I have two different steel hardtails. They are awesome. Neahaus Metalworks Hummingbird and ...and Richey Ultra.
The steel frame may need a break in period before it rides better. I know dirtbikes with steel frames “break in” after about 10 hours of riding. I think it has something to do with the endurance limit of the steel. It may be something interesting to look into but you may feel no difference. Great video!
Wow really! That's interesting.
Something that people really need to be aware of when deciding is longevity. Steel alloy parts can be designed to lower stresses to a point where the material will never fail if kept corrosion/damage free. Aluminum on the other hand has no fatigue limit and will fail eventually; Even if kept in perfect condition with no dings, dents, etc.
Building up my very own Bird Forge as I watching your video! Can't wait to ride it! 🤘
Built my Forge about 2 months ago and its a beast, it's insane how precise the steering is. I came from a Nukeproof Scout and I think the comparison here is just about spot on. When i saw this video i knew that any other outcome and i'd be unsubscribing 😄
Ill admitt to my shallowness and old age. I just love the look of a thinner tube Steel bikes. Ive owned almost every known frame material and i end up on my steels most.
I love my steel Stanton Sherpa. Such a versatile bike as well.
Since it's a Sherpa should lead it's way down Everest just playing could you imagine someone freeriding Everest lmao
I've had my Redline Monocog 29 for quite a while and by now the only original parts are the frame, crankset, and a couple other small bits.
It is a fantastic machine for several trails in my area with the steel ride being great although it is a LOT harder to tell with the big squishy tires and suspension fork compared to the difference in my steel frame/cf fork road bike vs my aluminum/cf fork road (crits) bike - on skinny high pressure tires and no suspension the difference is pronounced. When sprinting on a steel bike you can feel the BB sway and hardly any of that on the aluminum. Race on alu, train on steel (for road anyway)
I have an old Trek 820 Chromoly frame that I bought new in 2001 at The Bike Hut in Novato CA. I have well over 50k miles on it as a commuter but I also loved to hit every street feature on the way. I had to hang it up last year because the frame is finally fatigued and too flexible. I like to think that if it was aluminum I would have broken it long ago. Now I ride an aluminum 29er and I do love it but I still have feelings for my old Chromoly beast.
I picked up a Norco Torrent S2 and put on a Marzocchi Z1 coil for maximum simplicity and smoothness. With the weather finally starting to improve, you got me really hyped to ride my new steel bike! That Bird is beautiful!
Got my s1 as a back up bike for mellow trails. Instead I've been riding it on double black BC trails instead 😂
About to build a Ritchey Ultra with carbon parts everywhere, just built a Surly Straggler with drop bars the same way, crazy cool to ride. Steel is real.
That was a great comparison! I love my steel singlespeed but I’ve never really put much time in riding a modern aluminum hardtail. Sounds like I’ll be sticking with steel (or carbon 😝).
My Pop's cheapskate 26er full suspension City MTB we revived is still kicking after we neglected it for 20 years. He passed it on to me . I was originally a 3x6. I welded it with a disk brake mount and I'm about to upgrade it to 38t crank with 10 speed 11+40. And I love it. I don't care about the performance as long as the it's very durable. Like you can throw any punishment on this bicycle.
This frame Looks SICK!!!!!! I would like to purchase one, but was unable to ascertain whether they sell them for the Australian market. My second favourite option would be the Nukeproof Scout, but their store-finder was down, and so I was unable to find out if they sell them in Australia either. I don't remember seeing any Nuke's on the trails... If neither of these are available, what would you recommend for us Aussies?
I used that exact tape for a chainstay protector on my transition bottlerocket, 12 years ago. It's still on there solid.
The only limitation I have found with a good quality steel frame is that it messes with your compass if navigating. Threw me way off course in an adventure race once!
I would love you to add a titanium frame set in this shoot out… could it be the best of both worlds?
I second that motion!
Titanium feels pretty much just like steel just lighter.
Titanium frames are absolutely stupid expensive. They are an unjustified purchase
NO. The strength of titanium is negated by the horrible pin welds and frame inconsistency due to how hard it is to bend to spec. The cost isn't even the issue, you could pick one up for less than 1k, and they make compound so the threads don't seize, they just don't hold up like steel and don't weigh any less than aluminum, if it weighs even the same as aluminum, it's going to be weaker.
@@username-mk8gfit all depends on the manufacturer of the frame I‘d say…
Steel is real indeed, one of the best ht frames I've had in terms of feel was a 1995 Gary Fisher chromoly, but I currently have a custom chromoly gravel bike that's good too.
Good testing method 😊
I agree with your experience.
Aluminum is more rigid+brittle.
I do love steel. The ride is great and I appreciate the thin tubes they look great. With hydroformed or carbon looking like blobs. If not racing it is the choice
Great video ! It wold be great to see you push the limits of that steel frame compared to your other bikes!
I have one steel frame bike: Stif Squatch. (V1)
Now V2 is out, and I recommend it to you for the second season of Hardtail quest.
I have an 1992 Scott team (Steel butted tange tubes frame) and one Specialized Rockhopper Elite 2023 (A1, aluminum frame) and I fell much more comfortable to ride on the old Scott than the new Specialized due to the frame. Aluminum has elongation around 20%, steel has 45% this will define the ride comfort for sure, nice video.
When switching to the steel did you set the forks up accordingly? You'll need to tinker with the compression and rebound to get the best from the natural feel of the bike.
Yeah I think I increased the low speed rebound by one click. But the fork wasn't feeling great on the aluminum beforehand, but felt great on the steel 😂
I think the shortcomings you encountered are due to the geometry. You should definitely get an on one hello dave it you like steel bikes. Its got to be one of the best out there
I’ve got to ride Evans aluminum BIRD and it was obvious why it won season one. Fantastic bike.
Dude that’s cool to tie that KOM, Curtis Feltner is one fast guy.
I've never heard of him. I checked out some of his rides and it seems like he gets KOMs all the time. I'd love to meet and ride with him
@@EvansMTBSaga yeah he used to work for PTBS (local bike shop) which he still may, but I haven’t bumped into him in a while, he may be in corporate for them, but yeah, super chill dude
Steel rules. I will most likely swap my carbon hardtail of a steel one. Just a question of money.
I just swaped the carbon fork on my cyclo cross bike. Much better feeling now, but it is significantly more heavy, so nothing for weenies.
Once I went steel I never looked back. I’d love to see you try out the On One Wrekker. A super slack titanium frame from the UK. Your content is 🔥
I love steel bikes! One of my favorite bikes I've ever owned has been my 1993 Diamondback Apex. Fully rigid, but still very smooth and compliant with 35psi in 26x2.1 tires. I also just absolutely love how steel frames look. Just got my custom Marino steel full suspension frame in a few days ago too, and I'm too excited to get it built up. I'm very interested to see how it compares to my aluminum bikes. It's definitely heavier, at 10.2lbs with a Fox Float and nothing else, but I think that'll even out with the components I'll be installing.
I should also add, that Diamondback is only 24lbs. Being rigid probably helps with that, but steel can still be light.
At some point all the Ti, Carbon and Aluminium fans will be curious to ride high-end steel bikes because steel is the root of modern bikes, just like the motor industry,the older they get the more interesting they become to the newer market.
The steel variant is absolutely stunning 😍😍😍 alloy ain’t bad lookin either tho
I went from steel(kona unit w 120mm fork) to aluminium hardtail (ragley mmmbop mullet same 120mm fork) I ended swapping the parts back to the steel bike.
The steel bike feels like its much more controlled over roots and rocks. The alu bike was a bit like riding a pingpong ball hehe
I’m not an avid mountain biker, but I can familiarize & appreciate your passion & production.
Additionally, I’m a big fan of steel, which I hope will be even better with electricity & coils.
Baby steps!
Liked & subscribed.
Thanks apple chili!!
Am planning to go to 4130 for future electrified bicycles. Aluminum - what I’m currently running; used trek 4900 frame - tends to fatigue and crack after a while. “A while” tends to happen faster under electrification.
@@dennisyoung4631 Steel or Cromoly is the way to go. Been running a Motorized 2 Stroke bike on an 90's Steel MTB with no issues for more than a year now (had a knee injury which put me off pedaling for a while, after I recovered I still kept it around just for the fun of working and riding it). Also, steel is super easy to reinforce on any good welder.
I have an aluminum Kona Dew that i take on some gnarly single track backpacking and another aluminum Giant escape for commuting. Im into steel as a material , but the price barrier makes it a little difficult.
Thank you for review! Have you heard about Stif Squatch? Pretty interesting bike with geo similar to Bird Forge but with some unique engineering features (flat seatstays and ovalized top tube). It would be geat to see it in hardtail quest, especially comparison with Forge.
Great review keep it coming please. I’d love you compare different steel hard tail frames. Kind of a spin off series. The uk has so many good bike companies who mark steel hard tails. I’d love to see them run against each other
It might be worth looking at the on one hello Dave for season 2 of hardtail quest as it would be quite interesting to see how I holds up to the other bikes
0:47
Super nice addition, to just dedicate a small portion of the video to the history of the technology used, it would be so nice if we could se this on the new videos ! Mega hyped
And great video
I was pumped on it too! Thanks
I was expecting you to say exactly those things in the end. Steel rides awesome. Try to get your hands on some titanium too. I would love to.😊
Hoping you get a chance to review the Honzo ESD.
Currently the Forge and ESD are at the top of my next hardtail list, and would love your input on Kona.
Love the Content 😎
That bird looks awesome! You might have just got them a customer! I would call it Larry!
That frame and color is looking really nice!
Well, I've always been an aluminium devotee, but -having a similar curiosity as you- am now building a Hello Dave.
Yeah, not the same geo as my Big Al, but don't want to end with two similar bikes.
I expect the Hello Dave to be an Enduro monster 😎
I have owned steel, aluminum and carbon. Steel isn't as light but I have found it to be more forgiving on long trails and absorbent of chatter. This makes for less fatigue if you ride all day. The worst is my carbon xc race bike. It is brutal. While it's super light at 24lbs and super fast..it just beats you up on long rides. My body is numb and I want to quit after two hours. Aluminum is inbetweenen the two. Steel is also more durable. This is why BMXers never went to carbon on freestyle Street bikes and hate aluminum as it dents or cracks too easily when dropped. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I still love steel for urban assault city riding and pump tracks.
That frame is such a beautiful colour.
I was debating getting a Marin El Roy steel frame and swapping out the Roscoe frame...
That'd be a big difference since the Roscoe felt super stiff to me
Not all steel bikes are created equal (nor aluminum.) At 6.6lbs, sounds like it is slightly overbuilt, but good thing it rode well for you. Seat stay diameters, shapes, gussets, and etc will affect ride quality too. You should definitely try more steel frames. I love my steel single speed.
I am curious as to the difference between steel and titanium. Titanium is obviously lighter but is there a difference in the ride quality.
Not much of a difference in ride quality to be honest , although Ti is naturally more springy so it absorbs micro vibrations better , Ti also never fatigues and lasts forever unless the welds break.
you should do a high vs low in categories (dh, xc, trail, enduro) i think that would be sick, example: not all trail riders need huge maguras, vice versa :)
I have a steel orange P7. I was hoping you would get onto steel at some point. I knew you wouldn't be able to swap back.
Only a kilo heavier than the aluminium frame isn't bad. I had a cheap bike from Canadian Tire in high school and its total weight was 40 lbs. (I might have been only 100 lbs when I got it...) High quality frames are definitely a cut above.
I wanna try out a marino frame if i ever replace my scout frame. Steel just looks cooler even if the difference is negligible
I absolutely love my stainless Forge, best bike I've ever owned👌
I'm a huge fan from the Philippines if you don't wanna use the steel frame anymore I love to keep it 🥰
Great video! I've been on Ti full suss for the last two years now and alu HT. Been working on the Ti HT also, looking forward to that. I'm definitely happy with how steel rides.
Really Great video.
Thanks for the steel hard tail content
i wish i could subscribe 11 thousand times more so we can finally get hi-low season 2
Nice video and the bike looks great with the steel frame and color. I’m on a Blue Pig steel frame and loving it.
How about testing the Titanium frame?
Thanks a lot, I've been looking for a video like this
High low season🥳. Hope more brand are included like Kona and Scott
I saw a Kona Honzo ESD yesterday at my LBS In that purple/yellow color. No clue how it rides, but aesthetically it's the nicest hardtail I've ever seen.
scott's rubbish.
My old 26" 853 Dean Jester is still the best-feeling MTB I have ever owned. I kind of want to sell my Yeti ARC and pick up something like it now ... thanks. :)
I have a tricked out 1992 KONA Hei Hei Titanium , great bike for what it is , but even a Walmart OZARK Trail will kill it on the trails with modern geometry and larger wheels. My Kona is now reserved for City cycling and rail trails as it's better suited for that style of biking these days , even though in its heyday the Hei Hei was one of the best MTB's that money could buy. I racked up about 2k miles last season on my Hei Hei biking through the city and rail trails , my Esker Hayduke is my hard tail X-country adventure bike these days.
How much did they both weigh fully built?
The building of the office chair was sick ! 😎 AL or CrMo body?
hey Evan, that SRAM crankset, is that the same one that got messed up and you used the helicoil inserts to fix? If so I'm assuming it's still holding up great?
that is the same crankset. holding up great!
I ride a steel Enduro Hardtail and a steel Dirtjumper and I love the soft but direct feeling. They feel completety comfy and last for like 300 years. Yes, steel is real.
Awesome comparison man! Love your videos 🙏
Amazing... Always love/
That bike looks awesome also looks very similar to the norco torrent s series.
Isn't that a little many spacers on that stem?
I ride E's but came from MX background. You can make my frame out of tungsten and I wouldn't give a damn. How heavy can you possibly make my bike before it weighs 250lbs like a decent moto? As long as that thing has some juice to help, give me MORE. More weight, more brakes, more suspension. Hey, I like the stability, and crushing my own gravel in front of me.
I've been enjoying the E-Bike quite a bit. At 50lbs, it handles downhill much better than my regular bikes because the weight gives it a ton of stability and a planted feeling
IMO any non-FS bike, other than a XC race bike, I'd go steel.
Suspension can provide the forgiveness and suppleness that makes a rider less sensitive to the dampening of frame materials, and is why Steel isn't a must for long legged trail/enduros...
However I believe this is the MOST important factor in rigid/semi-rigid bikes.
Whether its a cylocross, gravel, DJ/BMX, or trail/hardcore hardtail... the comfort and confidence you gain from taking away the fatigue of the frame osciliations (chatter), will equate IMO to better "rider" performance, regardless of the weight deficit.
I don't think think any bike itself would be any 'slower' than another with identical geometry just because of the frame materials.I wouldn't say there is even a tangible traction benefit. Rather the compliance, the ability to mute unwanted vibrations, over duration, is what improves the rider's performance by reducing fatigue and sharpness of impacts.
I don't think you can tell me that a 4x bike race can be won/lost due to the frame materials.
If you want to ride low/long/slack HTs down the chunder in the pacific northwest, with comfort and confidence... it better be steel. My favs are the Chromag(s), Torrent, Knolly, ESD
i dont care about the ride quality difference , i just love the thinner tubes of steel
What's funny as being a 90's MTBer , everyone wanted the fat tube bikes as now its the opposite.
Super cool to see an MTB creator local to my area. If I ever see you out on the trails I'd love to show you my bike! I've been slowly upgrading it to turn it into a trail beast!
Absolutely! I love checking out different rides
Super curious
What is the bike ?
Oh and, i just thought, it would be insane to bring back upgrading subscriber's bikes !
@@xara7152 It's a marlin 5 gen 1 that I've put a ton of upgrades on! Air fork, dropper post, tires, 1x conversion. shorter cranks, nicer pedals. I've done just about everything to it except for add the OneUp EDC stuff which would be wicked
@@Faeskis_1 noice
Must be a sick ride
What type of derailleur hanger does it use? UDH?
Yup!
@@EvansMTBSaga thanks! I wanted to build a hard tail from scratch for a while, this might be the frame I have been looking for
Nice comparison, close to apples-2-apples as you can really get.
Thanks! I appreciate it
Evan, Thomson makes a Titanium frame 😁🤘🤘
Just for the record I don't think a power meter can actually compare how efficient a frame is - 150 watts at the crank is 150 watts. To see the difference between frames, suspension being locked out vs unlocked, etc, you need to measure how hard it is for *you* yourself to produce 150 watts at the cranks, which isn't really easily done on a bike
Hey Evan! My name is Asa baker and I am 15 from Nashville TN. I have been riding for 8 years and I am I downhill MTB racer. I have been watching your videos for some time now and have thought it would be the coolest thing ever to catch a few laps with you. And guess what, I will be in Bentonville for a few days for my spring break! I would love for you to show me your favorite spots and catch a few laps, even tow me into "Drop the Hammer" comment on this video and I can give you my email and dates I will be there. I know its a long shot but its 100% worth it. I also have a commencal meta sx sooooo we kinda have to ride. Let me know!!!
Aluminum is a harsher ride stiffer, steel is flexing a nicer ride generally heavier.
I’m looking forward to a Kona esd w/slide outs it’s also a steel frame bike
Have you ever tried to do a Marino custom steel?
Nope this was my first steel frame