I shall be 80 years old in a few months. When I was young, post-war Japanese goods were ridiculed as being cheap, shoddy copies. It was said that they were incapable of originality. Plastic was looked down on as a very poor replacement for quality materials in the home. I suspect that China is going through the same process. They are already showing signs of acceptance and being capable of innovation and excellence. Thanks for your thoughts, Garry.
Thanks. I can also remember when Japanese products were derided. When I look around the vast majority of the things around me are from China, and I love using each and every one of them, from my pens through to my computer.
Gary, I enjoyed your video on Chiinese pens. My son introduced me to cheap Chinese pens some years ago, and it was some time before I stepped up to more expensive ones. A couple of years ago I bought a dozen Jiinhao 992s, mostly to give to nieces and nephews. I inked one of these the other day just to check it out and was very pleasantly surprised and what a good writer it is. The cap is designed with a chamber that encloses the nib, and the pen doesn't dry out even when left capped for a week or two. So my experience with Chinese pens has been positive--despite uneven quality, they are a bargain.
As a fountain pen user from CN.I dislike those local company which just copy the other pens,I know the cheap price do have some points.but I still hope that one day we can self design and manufactures our pens。
Excellent Video. Agree with your comments, very well said. My husband watched this video and loved it. He has 4 Chinese fountain pens and he is very happy with them. Great video
Hey Garry, I really love your videos! I was laughing my a** of when you tried to unscrew the cap of the Jinhao X450... that was so funny. Keep up the great work, and keep sending those videos our way. Best regards from Portugal.
Thanks. I'm forever doing that with most of my pens as most are screw-off caps. I can't remember the exact pen, but I have one where I end up unscrewing the body from the section every time I use it.
Jinhao X850 'M' nib is my latest acquisition and is an excellent writer. Wet and smooth with good flow. It has a good weight to it too being all metal. Really impressed!!😍
My first fountain pen was a Jinhao 51A - I loved it then and still love it. A cool, retro design, very affordable and a great way to get started with fountain pens.
i use daily my endineer office jinhao 75 and newer not has fail any,good pen, and if want use old style i have jinhao 159 too good pen, but not my hand good use longtime too big.
I just came across this video and I'd like to add: * People are quick to judge the supposed lack of quality from chinese manufacturing, but as you said, practically everybody has their products made there. When finding low quality it's usually because the brand is not willing to pay for better QC, Apple pays millions to get devices with impeccable QC, which makes the final product a lot more expensive to the final consumer. QC costs and chinese guys can provide it but not everybody is willing to pay for it. * Mass production has a higher risk of defective products. If you produce 1000 pens a day, it's obvious and normal that there will be more defects than if you produced only 10, but as I mentioned, QC costs and those 1000 pens could be defect free but at much higher price for improved QC. * I've been buying chinese pens since 2017 and the reliability of them has increased as time passes by, taking your 992 as an example, the first runs where plagued with cracking issues, which Jinhao addressed and practically eliminated. By a curious anecdote which I won't tell here I have twelve 992s, only two have cracked and one was my fault because I dropped it to the floor. * QC can be inconsistent out of China too, as an example, Lamy checks their nibs before leaving the factory, but it's done by a machine, and the only thing it checks is that it writes, it doesn't check if it's scratchy, if it's dry or wet, if the line width is correct or any other thing a human could easily detect. The result is that Lamy nibs are highly inconsistent. Chinese Lamy style nibs are a lot more reliable in my experience... But the rest of the Lamy pen is usually fantastic. * As for inspired-by pens, I admire that people have moral principles, but again, they're quick to judge and never consider the existence of agreements or licenses which don't have to be public, or that the patent of a design (if any) may already be expired (think of the first Mickey Mouse design which has gone public just this year). The ones who have all the right to judge are the "offended" brands, but maybe these inspired-by pens get them more market share instead of causing loses, I think the Majohn A1, A2 and A3 got more sales for Pilot as people were moved to try the real deal after using them. But I completely agree about counterfeits, nobody should encourage or buy them. Kudos to you for this video.
What great knowledge about pens made in China that I always wanted to know. It was a great treat. Thank you, Sir, for your thoughtful comments. I truly loved it. I believe you put it so well about pens made in China compared to more expensive pens made in the US, UK, and Japan. I love quality fountain pens that are not that expensive to own and do not believe in expensive Limited Edition pens which should be Unlimited and affordable. God bless you for your insights on cheap and affordable pens made in China.
There is a big difference between “inspired by” and counterfeit, such as the one you saw that was branded with word LAMY, or the many Montblanc counterfeits being sold to defraud their buyers. I have several expensive, black, cigar shaped pens from different higher end manufacturers which look nearly identical when laid out side by side. They are all inspired by the same form and function. I have some Jinhao models, and am looking at a Majohn (Moonman). There is such a wide variety of materials and prices which make the fountain pen hobby so accessible to everyone. I don’t mind “inspired by” at all, as long as I know exactly what I am buying.
I am very much with you on that. I would not buy a pen that was an obvious counterfeit. I do like pens that are inspired by others, a good example is the Moonman M800 - one of my favourite pens, that led me to buy three Leonardos.
I am of Mexican descent, and my sons are half Chinese. While I despise both governments, I have the utmost respect for the people and cultures. This extends to all human beings. It should not matter where a product is made but rather the ethics of the manufacturer. It is because of this that I will not buy Kaweco or TWSBI, but do buy Lamy and Narwhal.
Oscar, you have made a very warming and valid point that few pen people tend to make. I am quite aware of the situations that both of the mentioned companies that you are no longer purchasing from, and for the same reason I too have no longer been purchasing their products since they pulled their respective capers.
I am with you on TWSBI, I have no intention of buying any more pens from them, I do like Narwhal pens though and have been growing them in my collection. With Kaweco, I have been buying some Sport models, but that is more because they fit a "need" in my life to have a pen that I can carry around in my cargo-shorts pocket. I've got 2 of them now and don't think I will be buying any more.
@@cate7777 Kaweco, who was tired of competing with Chinese companies, registered and patented/trademarked these Chinese pen companies names both in Europe and in the United States so that these companies could no longer officially do business there. As in attempting to do so Kaweco the owner of said trademarks could claim these goods were counterfeit and they would be seized before hitting the market. Kaweco meanwhile has lost numerous cases in German courts in attempting to place patents on its own pens. However the German courts refuse to grant them patents as Kaweco has not invented anything. This is why there has been a major change in the naming of Chinese pen companies in the last few years. I hope this helps. Please do feel free to continue to ask more questions if needed.
@@cate7777 I can't remember if it was last year, or earlier this year. Kaweco took out copyright(may be a trademark) in Europe for Moonman with the aim of preventing Moonman pens from being sold there. This is one of the things that drove Moonman to rename to Majohn. Although what they did was perfectly legal, the way to was done seemed fishy - they claimed it was because Moonman were copying their pens, but at the time I don't think Moonman had any Kaweco inspired pens(although I'm happy to be corrected about this)
Nice video, Garry. Chinese pen is a topic that very often arises on UA-cam and social media, and I think you presented an interesting point of view. I draw the line between imitations and fakes. I don’t buy pens that are trying to mislead the buyer, like those that don’t put a brand name but use MB or LM. If the pen is almost the same as another brand but the name of the Chinese brand is clearly visible (the case with Jinhao and Moonman, at least), I may give the pen a try. As you, I have gone on to buy some more expensive pens after confirming that the overall shape of the imitation suits me. That’s how I ended up buying the Pilot Custom 823, the Leonardo and Platinum Curidas, to mention just three pens. By the way, the Curidas imitation cost me less than five dollars and lasted less than a two weeks, but allowed me to know that I would be comfortable with the Curidas. Curiously, the Jinhao Centennials hasn’t led me to buy an actual Parker Duofold. I’ve had tue opportunity to have some Parkers in my hands and I found them too slim for my hand, at least those specific models. On another theme, I think Chinese pens could be good for newcomers to fountain pens, except for the relatively higher probability of getting a defective one and the difficulty of returning it to the seller. That could prevent newbies from keep trying. A more knowledgeable user and more frequent buyer of fountain pens knows that many pens can be tuned and also is more likely to accept the occasional bad product as part of her/his FP journey. If I had to recommend a pen to an absolute beginner, I would mention the usual suspects (Metropolitan, Safari, Jotter, Vector, Kaweco) and suggest buying at a local store or at Amazon (provided the pen is returnable without cost to the buyer). Well, excuse the long comment. Thanks again for your videos.
When it comes to nib choice with Chinese pens, Penbbs is the way to go. For a decent price you can choose from a wide array of calligraphy nibs and their medium nibs write more like a western broad after some flossing of the tines.
1. People have emotional, cultural, racist, and political feelings that come into play when considering Chinese pens. Like most feelings, they are not up for debate. 2. There is a difference between Western and Chinese culture that is relevant and fascinating. After living and working in China for two years, I came to the conclusion that the concept of owning an idea is weak or absent. If you can't touch it, how can you own it? This difference in attitude leads to much of the conflict regarding intellectual property.
That would have been so interesting to have lived in China. I used to work a lot with people in India and noticed how different the cultures were, it was a great way to try and expand my mind and understanding.
Amen! Preach on! We should not hold fountain pen usage to the affluent, those who have money to spent $200 plus on a fountain pen equipped with a steel nib, or, the even more affluent, who can spend on status symbols, like $1,000 for a status symbol Montblanc 149. Take the logo off, build the same pen, and you have a pen that should retail (at most) for $400. I would argue that the Montblanc is not nearly the fountain pen of the Scribo fountain pen I was gifted. I write daily with Jinhao 100 Centennial (in the Parker Duofold style. I retired with a portfolio good enough to spend more money than I should on this hobby, but I am embarrassed that I do. I feel like I help a lot more people by buying excellent Chineses pens or exceptional pens (selling for a lot more) made by entrepreneurs like Brian at Edison Pens. To each his own: let the motivations be those of the individual. If you want or think you need a prestigious logo, then buy a Montblanc. I got one via gift. I bought a Writer’s Edition Montblanc, and, to be honest, it is not worth the money. It is simply not a very good pen, but it has the logo. I paid way too much, but its plastic piston will likely not last more than a year of use. I have had some badly designed PENBBS fountain pens. I have had parts break. But I have also had products made in Germany let me down. (Not Lamy, which is a rather consistently excellent manufacturer, as are some others.). For the money, the best quality for the dollar is the Jinhao!
Thanks. I'm completely in agreement with you. The key thing for me is that a pen should let you get ideas out of your head and onto paper, in a way that you enjoy. If a $2 Jinhao 992 lets you do that then why not use it.
i agree you, i just fight my montblank 149 to trash because i totally hate write this pen, and buy collect some different jinhoa pens, i have daily use jinhao 75 and love this pen, not heavy not big and not expensive, many year i not has used my old pilot,parker,montblank etc, because not have any better than my cheap pens but not need alltime worry were i forget my pen or worry go broken, im engineer and use daily lot pen and many workplace forget pen or construcktion area broken pen or other accident and i not want 1000$ pen take to work newer, but important have cheap pen have lot better use and feel than many my expensive pens newer.
That's possible, but I have found that the Conklin pen I have, I believe made in China, does not appear to have gone through any form of quality control. It's the worst pen I have owned. I have a separate video about it which should come out some time in November.
I have just one made in China. It is just fine, however it does not have a luxury feel like my German/Japanese made pens. My opinion is that I would rather use that 25+ dollars to use towards the pen that I really want. Learning to have patience and save for the pen I really want is difficult but worth it in the end to have a luxury writer that will last my lifetime.
I can see where you are coming from with this. A lot of the "cheap" cChinese pens are getting quite expensive now. I love the Jinhao 100 and Kaigelu 316 models, but the price has gone so high that I am following your suggestion to put the money to one side and save for a "better" pen
Will a "Chinese" fountain pen last as long as a "German" one? (As if pens could even have nationalities...) Literally no one could possibly know. I think most pens, when properly cared for, can probably last darn near indefinitely. I have a Waterman pen that was made in China, some Jinhao pens made in China, Pilot pens made in Japan, etc. I see no reason to suspect that their lifespan will be a function of where they were made as much as it is of how well I take care of them and keep track of them. If you care for something, value it, treasure it, etc. it will last. Most of the value in any possession is that with which we imbue it--particularly in the case of collections. I suppose it's possible to approach fountain pen collections in colder terms, but if you're not at least bit sentimental about the things you're collecting, it's hard for me to grasp why you're collecting.
I tend to buy pens that attract my eye. I would guess about 60% of them are from Chinese manufacturers. I've been lucky and not really had any issues with them. When I look at the cost I often think I could buy multiple Chinese pens for the same as a "western" brand, and like you said by taking care of them they are likely to last as long, if not longer that the more expensive pens.
I once used a Jinhao x450 for several weeks on a daily basis and the cap startet to become lose and didn’t snap anymore. And then I used a 159 and there were spots were the color came off. So yeah I did notice that Chinese pens are of less quality than German ones.
@@eliasg.2427 I can confirm what you say is correct, Elias G. I keep a Jinhao x450 on my desk at work. I've had it maybe five years and use it daily. Although the snap cap on mine works OK the paint on the grip section is wearing away. It was black when new but now I can see the brass coming through as most of the paint has worn off. The cap and barrel are alright but the clip has changed from a gold colour to silver. However, for the price I can't complain.
Yes, I have some wonderful heirlooms and historical pens, which I love. I also have contemporary German, Italian, and Japanese pens I treasure and use mostly at home. I also love my Chinese pens, they are fun, cheap, great to make frankenpens, carry everywhere without worry, giveaway and many are great writers. The ones with fine and extra fine nibs are great for taking notes, and I love collecting them as you have to marvel at the quality for the price (which continues to improve). I agree with your comments completely.
Chinese pens are decent, I have a few nice ones and would consider buying one that is a copy, like the Majohn A1 to get a feel for the style before buying the more expensive Pilot. That said, if, like the Dialog copy you mentioned, it has the other brand's name on it, I will avoid at all costs. The majority of my pens right now are Chinese, Jinhaos, Majohns, and Heroes. They all work nicely and give me a feel for the style. Some are fairly "original" while others like the Hero 616 and Jinhao 80 are clearly copies, Parker 51 and Lamy 2000/Studio respectively. My favourite so far is the Jinhao 80. However, I now know that I like the feel of certain pens and will be more likely to get the more expensive version down the road.
I got the A1 a while back to do the same, so see how I'd get on with the Vanishing Point, and it has now made me want one of those. I did something similar with a Wing Sung 699, that led me to a Pilot Custom 823, and a Moonman M800 that took me down the Leonardo path. I think having affordable ways to try out pen body shapes is a big benefit.
Years ago pens from China were more for display or function. Companies like Jinhao and Hero made pens of metal, porcelain that were quite beautiful to look at but writing with them was horrible. The nibs were garbage. They came in gorgeous wood boxes, too. Now, their decision to compete in the market with functional, everyday writers has been a boon for me. Do they borrow from other manufacturers? Certainly yes. But they install their own ideas in the pen and made it a pen worthy of consideration. Consistency is still a problem. You mentioned about buying two of the same pen and having different results, one negative and one positive. The quality is getting better and apparently listen to users, such and you and others and have made adjustments to their production. Do I like pens from other countries? Most assuredly, yes. Leonardo, Pelikan and others are still standard bearers. China is catching up but there is still a ways to go for them. Being now retired, these pens have offered me a chance to explore these pens and enjoy my hobby even more. Some are garbage, but most are worthy of consideration and purchase. I used your and others reviews to guide me through this market. As for manufacturers such as Yafa a.o. I am sure there are Chinese components but there are other parts from other parts of the world being used. Do I consider them any less than those that make pens strictly in house? Certainly not. There are Chinese pens with Bock nibs. Why not? Good review, Garry. Hope there will be more like this.
Thanks. I was a bit concerned when I was making this video, but the reception has been really good. I'll try and make some more like this going forward.
I like your style Gary, but disagree with some of your digression on 'Chinese made pens'. Personally, I have no problem where the product is made, but where the product is essentially a complete copy of a well-known design (often with the filling mechanism changed, and/or with a standard #5 or #6 steel nib replacing the original) I am against buying those pens, and would hope more people in the pen community avoid them. Essentially due to the state of Chinese non-adherence to intellectual property laws (which most other countries at least try to appear to follow), most of the essentially 'rip-off' designs come from Chinese companies - eg Jinhao, Majohn/Moonman. If, and where, these companies make unique, or at least more inspired than copied, I'm fine with buying them. This is where Narwhal (for example) is a red herring, just as Taiwanese designs (which are not copies) like TWSBI or Opus88. Yes, the extremely cheap copies from these companies are convenient and can be used for trying out different shapes, it doesn't feel like any ethical difference from selling pirated software from my POV.
I agree with your points here. It is a fine line between supporting makers blatantly ripping off other people's IP (and hard work creating it) and building on and enhancing current designs to create something new. I do see a lot of pens on AliExpress(where I generally get my pens from) and think "that's just a copy" and then skip it and move on to other pens.
Hi Garry. I like this chatty style of video and would welcome more of the same. The subject of Chinese pens, particularly the imitators, is raised every time a new copy appears. More recently the Jinhao X159 (Montblanc 149) and the Jinhao 80 (Lamy 2000) have stirred up a lot of discussion. I must admit they make me feel a bit awkward but at the same time I ignore my principles and buy them. I just can't resist the low prices. Of course there are some adjustments to my expectations and I don't expect the copy to perform like the original.
copy or not no matter newer, if have good for you own hand and inspire write and feel pen then have good, i not has newer used and buy expensive pen because i not want support shit owerprice and not any better product than cheap produkt have same. i have used and has own many expensive pen too before but not good feel or too big my hand and i hate owerprice pen who sell pen him brand name only and pen not true have anythink better. last i fight to trash my father gift me 1000$ montblank because i totally hate write this. and buy some jinhao pen more because have lot lot better my hand.
I keep thinking about what my life would be like in places like China or North Korea. Short. I practice my freedoms of speech and to petition government. I think certain governments would find a cure for that problem pretty quick.
I understand the economics and practicality of why some choose to buy Chinese products, not just fountain pens. For some others, it's a matter supporting the system that is currently in place in that country which many view as Draconian and Orwellian; it is not necessarily that the things produced there are junk. They do produce some very well made products. As for Taiwan, China lay's claim to Taiwan, but it also has not yet ruled over it. Mainland China is Communist and Taiwan is Democratic. They behave as different entities.
You are absolutely right that Chinese pens are great for starting. But they are also "hit and miss", not very durable and more prone to cracks and failures as well. If you buy a quality Japanese or German pen, it could last you a lifetime or even be an heirloom. A Chinese pen would last how many years?
mb 149 is also prone to cracks while you could probably drive a car over a jinhao 159, from a value perspective it is very hard to argue for pens that are 200+...its mostly about wanting something "nice" and nothing wrong with that, i bought plenty expensive pens this last year but some of those purchases are pretty regrettable in hindsight.
Although in theory I agree with you, buying a "quality" pen should be a no-brainer. In practice I've found that not quite the case. I bought a Conklin pen last year and it is the biggest pile of garbage that I have owned. I am not 100% sure but I think it may have been assembled in China though. I have had an issue with only one Chinese pen - a Wing Sung 699 vacuum filler. I have been lucky so far with all the other pens I have had, but that lick may run out one day.
no matter how many year can use, this cheap price can buy all you life alltime uses new and good pen, than one 1000-2000$ pen yes can use all life time but not any good than buy 10-20 cheap chinese pen. same than car idiot buy 7 million car if can buy ewery year new car cheap and newer not have broken and not have better car.
@@mattivirta Wrong analogy. Cars can be resold. Expensive pens can be resold. Cheap Chinese pens cannot be resold. They usually end up in the trash bin. An expensive car holds value even after 10 years, but the cheap car is worth nothing after 10 years.
This is one point where I disagree with you. I filmed a video a couple of days ago talking about this exact topic. The video will be released on my Tricky Little Questions channel in the next month or so.
Can you buy something from a country that is trading those pen dollars for missiles that are intended for your sailors? Buy from friends instead. Buy Taiwan. Buy Japanese. Buy German.
If you watch my other videos you'll see I have a wide selection of pens from a wide selection of countries. A this is not a global political channel I can not really comment on those kinds of issues.
I have three problems with Chinese pens. Firstly, the build quality and performance. Secondly, you cannot get Broad or genuine Medium nibs on most Chinese pens. Thirdly, I am worried about the appalling human rights in China. No wonder these things are cheap and faulty. The workforce in the Chinese pen factories presumably have miserable lives and are paid peanuts. Has anyone ever seen the conditions inside one of these factories? The Chinese state is overwhelming, and all of the factory proprietors have to be approved by the ruling party. It is an oppressive regime, unlike the governments in all the other countries manufacturing fountain pens. Personally, I feel queasy buying things from a country that still has concentration camps.
I shall be 80 years old in a few months. When I was young, post-war Japanese goods were ridiculed as being cheap, shoddy copies. It was said that they were incapable of originality. Plastic was looked down on as a very poor replacement for quality materials in the home. I suspect that China is going through the same process. They are already showing signs of acceptance and being capable of innovation and excellence. Thanks for your thoughts, Garry.
Thanks. I can also remember when Japanese products were derided. When I look around the vast majority of the things around me are from China, and I love using each and every one of them, from my pens through to my computer.
Thank you Gary, for a very educational video. As someone new to fountain pens, your reviews are invaluable! Please keep up the excellent work!
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Thanks. Let me know if there is anything you would like;like me to cover and I can then add to my list for future videos.
Gary, I enjoyed your video on Chiinese pens. My son introduced me to cheap Chinese pens some years ago, and it was some time before I stepped up to more expensive ones. A couple of years ago I bought a dozen Jiinhao 992s, mostly to give to nieces and nephews. I inked one of these the other day just to check it out and was very pleasantly surprised and what a good writer it is. The cap is designed with a chamber that encloses the nib, and the pen doesn't dry out even when left capped for a week or two. So my experience with Chinese pens has been positive--despite uneven quality, they are a bargain.
I enjoy my 992s. I have just recorded a Fountain Pen Focus on it - should come out in a couple of weeks.
As a fountain pen user from CN.I dislike those local company which just copy the other pens,I know the cheap price do have some points.but I still hope that one day we can self design and manufactures our pens。
Excellent Video. Agree with your comments, very well said. My husband watched this video and loved it. He has 4 Chinese fountain pens and he is very happy with them. Great video
That is awesome!
Hey Garry, I really love your videos! I was laughing my a** of when you tried to unscrew the cap of the Jinhao X450... that was so funny. Keep up the great work, and keep sending those videos our way. Best regards from Portugal.
Thanks. I'm forever doing that with most of my pens as most are screw-off caps. I can't remember the exact pen, but I have one where I end up unscrewing the body from the section every time I use it.
Jinhao X850 'M' nib is my latest acquisition and is an excellent writer. Wet and smooth with good flow. It has a good weight to it too being all metal. Really impressed!!😍
My first fountain pen was a Jinhao 51A - I loved it then and still love it. A cool, retro design, very affordable and a great way to get started with fountain pens.
This is on my list of pens to look at when I make my next order from AliExpress. I've found that Jinhaos have been consistently nice for me.
i use daily my endineer office jinhao 75 and newer not has fail any,good pen, and if want use old style i have jinhao 159 too good pen, but not my hand good use longtime too big.
I just came across this video and I'd like to add:
* People are quick to judge the supposed lack of quality from chinese manufacturing, but as you said, practically everybody has their products made there. When finding low quality it's usually because the brand is not willing to pay for better QC, Apple pays millions to get devices with impeccable QC, which makes the final product a lot more expensive to the final consumer. QC costs and chinese guys can provide it but not everybody is willing to pay for it.
* Mass production has a higher risk of defective products. If you produce 1000 pens a day, it's obvious and normal that there will be more defects than if you produced only 10, but as I mentioned, QC costs and those 1000 pens could be defect free but at much higher price for improved QC.
* I've been buying chinese pens since 2017 and the reliability of them has increased as time passes by, taking your 992 as an example, the first runs where plagued with cracking issues, which Jinhao addressed and practically eliminated. By a curious anecdote which I won't tell here I have twelve 992s, only two have cracked and one was my fault because I dropped it to the floor.
* QC can be inconsistent out of China too, as an example, Lamy checks their nibs before leaving the factory, but it's done by a machine, and the only thing it checks is that it writes, it doesn't check if it's scratchy, if it's dry or wet, if the line width is correct or any other thing a human could easily detect. The result is that Lamy nibs are highly inconsistent. Chinese Lamy style nibs are a lot more reliable in my experience... But the rest of the Lamy pen is usually fantastic.
* As for inspired-by pens, I admire that people have moral principles, but again, they're quick to judge and never consider the existence of agreements or licenses which don't have to be public, or that the patent of a design (if any) may already be expired (think of the first Mickey Mouse design which has gone public just this year). The ones who have all the right to judge are the "offended" brands, but maybe these inspired-by pens get them more market share instead of causing loses, I think the Majohn A1, A2 and A3 got more sales for Pilot as people were moved to try the real deal after using them. But I completely agree about counterfeits, nobody should encourage or buy them.
Kudos to you for this video.
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What great knowledge about pens made in China that I always wanted to know. It was a great treat. Thank you, Sir, for your thoughtful comments. I truly loved it. I believe you put it so well about pens made in China compared to more expensive pens made in the US, UK, and Japan. I love quality fountain pens that are not that expensive to own and do not believe in expensive Limited Edition pens which should be Unlimited and affordable. God bless you for your insights on cheap and affordable pens made in China.
Thank you. I rally enjoy being able to use the creation of these videos to expand my own knowledge.
There is a big difference between “inspired by” and counterfeit, such as the one you saw that was branded with word LAMY, or the many Montblanc counterfeits being sold to defraud their buyers. I have several expensive, black, cigar shaped pens from different higher end manufacturers which look nearly identical when laid out side by side. They are all inspired by the same form and function. I have some Jinhao models, and am looking at a Majohn (Moonman). There is such a wide variety of materials and prices which make the fountain pen hobby so accessible to everyone. I don’t mind “inspired by” at all, as long as I know exactly what I am buying.
I am very much with you on that. I would not buy a pen that was an obvious counterfeit. I do like pens that are inspired by others, a good example is the Moonman M800 - one of my favourite pens, that led me to buy three Leonardos.
Very well said!! Thank you
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I am of Mexican descent, and my sons are half Chinese. While I despise both governments, I have the utmost respect for the people and cultures. This extends to all human beings. It should not matter where a product is made but rather the ethics of the manufacturer. It is because of this that I will not buy Kaweco or TWSBI, but do buy Lamy and Narwhal.
Oscar, you have made a very warming and valid point that few pen people tend to make. I am quite aware of the situations that both of the mentioned companies that you are no longer purchasing from, and for the same reason I too have no longer been purchasing their products since they pulled their respective capers.
I am with you on TWSBI, I have no intention of buying any more pens from them, I do like Narwhal pens though and have been growing them in my collection. With Kaweco, I have been buying some Sport models, but that is more because they fit a "need" in my life to have a pen that I can carry around in my cargo-shorts pocket. I've got 2 of them now and don't think I will be buying any more.
Just curious, what's the controversy with Kaweco? I was not aware there was an issue. I may need to revise my wish list.
@@cate7777 Kaweco, who was tired of competing with Chinese companies, registered and patented/trademarked these Chinese pen companies names both in Europe and in the United States so that these companies could no longer officially do business there. As in attempting to do so Kaweco the owner of said trademarks could claim these goods were counterfeit and they would be seized before hitting the market. Kaweco meanwhile has lost numerous cases in German courts in attempting to place patents on its own pens. However the German courts refuse to grant them patents as Kaweco has not invented anything.
This is why there has been a major change in the naming of Chinese pen companies in the last few years. I hope this helps. Please do feel free to continue to ask more questions if needed.
@@cate7777 I can't remember if it was last year, or earlier this year. Kaweco took out copyright(may be a trademark) in Europe for Moonman with the aim of preventing Moonman pens from being sold there. This is one of the things that drove Moonman to rename to Majohn.
Although what they did was perfectly legal, the way to was done seemed fishy - they claimed it was because Moonman were copying their pens, but at the time I don't think Moonman had any Kaweco inspired pens(although I'm happy to be corrected about this)
Nice video, Garry. Chinese pen is a topic that very often arises on UA-cam and social media, and I think you presented an interesting point of view. I draw the line between imitations and fakes. I don’t buy pens that are trying to mislead the buyer, like those that don’t put a brand name but use MB or LM. If the pen is almost the same as another brand but the name of the Chinese brand is clearly visible (the case with Jinhao and Moonman, at least), I may give the pen a try. As you, I have gone on to buy some more expensive pens after confirming that the overall shape of the imitation suits me. That’s how I ended up buying the Pilot Custom 823, the Leonardo and Platinum Curidas, to mention just three pens. By the way, the Curidas imitation cost me less than five dollars and lasted less than a two weeks, but allowed me to know that I would be comfortable with the Curidas. Curiously, the Jinhao Centennials hasn’t led me to buy an actual Parker Duofold. I’ve had tue opportunity to have some Parkers in my hands and I found them too slim for my hand, at least those specific models.
On another theme, I think Chinese pens could be good for newcomers to fountain pens, except for the relatively higher probability of getting a defective one and the difficulty of returning it to the seller. That could prevent newbies from keep trying. A more knowledgeable user and more frequent buyer of fountain pens knows that many pens can be tuned and also is more likely to accept the occasional bad product as part of her/his FP journey. If I had to recommend a pen to an absolute beginner, I would mention the usual suspects (Metropolitan, Safari, Jotter, Vector, Kaweco) and suggest buying at a local store or at Amazon (provided the pen is returnable without cost to the buyer).
Well, excuse the long comment. Thanks again for your videos.
Thanks for your comment. I think we must have similar habits although I have yet to try the Curidas.
@@GarryEves yes, I’ve followed your videos and I’ve bought some of the pens you have, and about at the same time!
I’ve many pens from Delike, Moonman, Jinhao, BAOER, Hero etc.. I’m nothing but happy about these pens.. VFM offered by these pens is unbeatable !
I'm quite liking where Hongdian are going at the moment. Most of pens I've bought recently have been made by them.
When it comes to nib choice with Chinese pens, Penbbs is the way to go. For a decent price you can choose from a wide array of calligraphy nibs and their medium nibs write more like a western broad after some flossing of the tines.
Fountain pen market in Occident has inflated prices exaggeratedly. Lets go for good and cheap pens!
👍
1. People have emotional, cultural, racist, and political feelings that come into play when considering Chinese pens. Like most feelings, they are not up for debate.
2. There is a difference between Western and Chinese culture that is relevant and fascinating. After living and working in China for two years, I came to the conclusion that the concept of owning an idea is weak or absent. If you can't touch it, how can you own it? This difference in attitude leads to much of the conflict regarding intellectual property.
That would have been so interesting to have lived in China. I used to work a lot with people in India and noticed how different the cultures were, it was a great way to try and expand my mind and understanding.
ink cardridge pens have comfortable good use because not need stupid fill system do.
Thanks for this Gary.
Yeahhh Jinhao 992 is the best pen among my Chinese pens, even though it's only $2. In my opinion it's better than the preppy.
I enjoy my 992s. I have a fountain pen focus video coming up about it.
thanks for the video mate
Amen! Preach on! We should not hold fountain pen usage to the affluent, those who have money to spent $200 plus on a fountain pen equipped with a steel nib, or, the even more affluent, who can spend on status symbols, like $1,000 for a status symbol Montblanc 149. Take the logo off, build the same pen, and you have a pen that should retail (at most) for $400. I would argue that the Montblanc is not nearly the fountain pen of the Scribo fountain pen I was gifted. I write daily with Jinhao 100 Centennial (in the Parker Duofold style. I retired with a portfolio good enough to spend more money than I should on this hobby, but I am embarrassed that I do. I feel like I help a lot more people by buying excellent Chineses pens or exceptional pens (selling for a lot more) made by entrepreneurs like Brian at Edison Pens. To each his own: let the motivations be those of the individual. If you want or think you need a prestigious logo, then buy a Montblanc. I got one via gift. I bought a Writer’s Edition Montblanc, and, to be honest, it is not worth the money. It is simply not a very good pen, but it has the logo. I paid way too much, but its plastic piston will likely not last more than a year of use. I have had some badly designed PENBBS fountain pens. I have had parts break. But I have also had products made in Germany let me down. (Not Lamy, which is a rather consistently excellent manufacturer, as are some others.). For the money, the best quality for the dollar is the Jinhao!
Thanks. I'm completely in agreement with you. The key thing for me is that a pen should let you get ideas out of your head and onto paper, in a way that you enjoy. If a $2 Jinhao 992 lets you do that then why not use it.
i agree you, i just fight my montblank 149 to trash because i totally hate write this pen, and buy collect some different jinhoa pens, i have daily use jinhao 75 and love this pen, not heavy not big and not expensive, many year i not has used my old pilot,parker,montblank etc, because not have any better than my cheap pens but not need alltime worry were i forget my pen or worry go broken, im engineer and use daily lot pen and many workplace forget pen or construcktion area broken pen or other accident and i not want 1000$ pen take to work newer, but important have cheap pen have lot better use and feel than many my expensive pens newer.
Maybe there's a difference in quality between products made in China (non-chinese brands) and chinese brands. That difference would be QC.
That's possible, but I have found that the Conklin pen I have, I believe made in China, does not appear to have gone through any form of quality control. It's the worst pen I have owned. I have a separate video about it which should come out some time in November.
@@GarryEves That's going to be interesting.
I love pens made in China. Some are junk but most are awesome!!!! 95% of my pens are from China. That is what i can afford and love it.
I was very surprised when I got my first Chinese pens. I especially like the Moonman (Majohn) and PenBBS pens.
Great points!
Thanks
I have just one made in China. It is just fine, however it does not have a luxury feel like my German/Japanese made pens. My opinion is that I would rather use that 25+ dollars to use towards the pen that I really want. Learning to have patience and save for the pen I really want is difficult but worth it in the end to have a luxury writer that will last my lifetime.
I can see where you are coming from with this. A lot of the "cheap" cChinese pens are getting quite expensive now. I love the Jinhao 100 and Kaigelu 316 models, but the price has gone so high that I am following your suggestion to put the money to one side and save for a "better" pen
Me too... I want a certain Namiki pen called Parrot with Peach. I need to save every penny to put towards it as it is a "Grail" pen.
@@cate7777 Wow, that is serious goals! I looked the pen up and it is absolutely stunning! Wishing you the best on saving for your grail pen.
Will a "Chinese" fountain pen last as long as a "German" one? (As if pens could even have nationalities...) Literally no one could possibly know. I think most pens, when properly cared for, can probably last darn near indefinitely. I have a Waterman pen that was made in China, some Jinhao pens made in China, Pilot pens made in Japan, etc. I see no reason to suspect that their lifespan will be a function of where they were made as much as it is of how well I take care of them and keep track of them. If you care for something, value it, treasure it, etc. it will last. Most of the value in any possession is that with which we imbue it--particularly in the case of collections. I suppose it's possible to approach fountain pen collections in colder terms, but if you're not at least bit sentimental about the things you're collecting, it's hard for me to grasp why you're collecting.
I tend to buy pens that attract my eye. I would guess about 60% of them are from Chinese manufacturers. I've been lucky and not really had any issues with them. When I look at the cost I often think I could buy multiple Chinese pens for the same as a "western" brand, and like you said by taking care of them they are likely to last as long, if not longer that the more expensive pens.
I once used a Jinhao x450 for several weeks on a daily basis and the cap startet to become lose and didn’t snap anymore. And then I used a 159 and there were spots were the color came off. So yeah I did notice that Chinese pens are of less quality than German ones.
@@eliasg.2427 Thanks for this. I will keep an eye on them.
@@GarryEves The nibs on the Jinhaos were fabulous tho.
@@eliasg.2427 I can confirm what you say is correct, Elias G. I keep a Jinhao x450 on my desk at work. I've had it maybe five years and use it daily. Although the snap cap on mine works OK the paint on the grip section is wearing away. It was black when new but now I can see the brass coming through as most of the paint has worn off. The cap and barrel are alright but the clip has changed from a gold colour to silver. However, for the price I can't complain.
Yes, I have some wonderful heirlooms and historical pens, which I love. I also have contemporary German, Italian, and Japanese pens I treasure and use mostly at home. I also love my Chinese pens, they are fun, cheap, great to make frankenpens, carry everywhere without worry, giveaway and many are great writers. The ones with fine and extra fine nibs are great for taking notes, and I love collecting them as you have to marvel at the quality for the price (which continues to improve). I agree with your comments completely.
Thanks
Chinese pens are decent, I have a few nice ones and would consider buying one that is a copy, like the Majohn A1 to get a feel for the style before buying the more expensive Pilot. That said, if, like the Dialog copy you mentioned, it has the other brand's name on it, I will avoid at all costs. The majority of my pens right now are Chinese, Jinhaos, Majohns, and Heroes. They all work nicely and give me a feel for the style. Some are fairly "original" while others like the Hero 616 and Jinhao 80 are clearly copies, Parker 51 and Lamy 2000/Studio respectively. My favourite so far is the Jinhao 80. However, I now know that I like the feel of certain pens and will be more likely to get the more expensive version down the road.
I got the A1 a while back to do the same, so see how I'd get on with the Vanishing Point, and it has now made me want one of those. I did something similar with a Wing Sung 699, that led me to a Pilot Custom 823, and a Moonman M800 that took me down the Leonardo path.
I think having affordable ways to try out pen body shapes is a big benefit.
Years ago pens from China were more for display or function. Companies like Jinhao and Hero made pens of metal, porcelain that were quite beautiful to look at but writing with them was horrible. The nibs were garbage. They came in gorgeous wood boxes, too.
Now, their decision to compete in the market with functional, everyday writers has been a boon for me.
Do they borrow from other manufacturers? Certainly yes. But they install their own ideas in the pen and made it a pen worthy of consideration.
Consistency is still a problem. You mentioned about buying two of the same pen and having different results, one negative and one positive. The quality is getting better and apparently listen to users, such and you and others and have made adjustments to their production.
Do I like pens from other countries? Most assuredly, yes. Leonardo, Pelikan and others are still standard bearers. China is catching up but there is still a ways to go for them.
Being now retired, these pens have offered me a chance to explore these pens and enjoy my hobby even more.
Some are garbage, but most are worthy of consideration and purchase. I used your and others reviews to guide me through this market.
As for manufacturers such as Yafa a.o. I am sure there are Chinese components but there are other parts from other parts of the world being used. Do I consider them any less than those that make pens strictly in house? Certainly not. There are Chinese pens with Bock nibs. Why not?
Good review, Garry. Hope there will be more like this.
Thanks. I was a bit concerned when I was making this video, but the reception has been really good. I'll try and make some more like this going forward.
I like your style Gary, but disagree with some of your digression on 'Chinese made pens'. Personally, I have no problem where the product is made, but where the product is essentially a complete copy of a well-known design (often with the filling mechanism changed, and/or with a standard #5 or #6 steel nib replacing the original) I am against buying those pens, and would hope more people in the pen community avoid them.
Essentially due to the state of Chinese non-adherence to intellectual property laws (which most other countries at least try to appear to follow), most of the essentially 'rip-off' designs come from Chinese companies - eg Jinhao, Majohn/Moonman. If, and where, these companies make unique, or at least more inspired than copied, I'm fine with buying them. This is where Narwhal (for example) is a red herring, just as Taiwanese designs (which are not copies) like TWSBI or Opus88.
Yes, the extremely cheap copies from these companies are convenient and can be used for trying out different shapes, it doesn't feel like any ethical difference from selling pirated software from my POV.
I agree with your points here.
It is a fine line between supporting makers blatantly ripping off other people's IP (and hard work creating it) and building on and enhancing current designs to create something new.
I do see a lot of pens on AliExpress(where I generally get my pens from) and think "that's just a copy" and then skip it and move on to other pens.
But your shoes are made in Vietnam ;)
Hi Garry. I like this chatty style of video and would welcome more of the same. The subject of Chinese pens, particularly the imitators, is raised every time a new copy appears. More recently the Jinhao X159 (Montblanc 149) and the Jinhao 80 (Lamy 2000) have stirred up a lot of discussion. I must admit they make me feel a bit awkward but at the same time I ignore my principles and buy them. I just can't resist the low prices. Of course there are some adjustments to my expectations and I don't expect the copy to perform like the original.
Thanks. I've found my purchasing of Chinese pens has slowed a lot - not that you would know if you could see the contents of my AliExpress whishlist.
copy or not no matter newer, if have good for you own hand and inspire write and feel pen then have good, i not has newer used and buy expensive pen because i not want support shit owerprice and not any better product than cheap produkt have same. i have used and has own many expensive pen too before but not good feel or too big my hand and i hate owerprice pen who sell pen him brand name only and pen not true have anythink better. last i fight to trash my father gift me 1000$ montblank because i totally hate write this. and buy some jinhao pen more because have lot lot better my hand.
I keep thinking about what my life would be like in places like China or North Korea.
Short. I practice my freedoms of speech and to petition government. I think certain governments would find a cure for that problem pretty quick.
I understand the economics and practicality of why some choose to buy Chinese products, not just fountain pens. For some others, it's a matter supporting the system that is currently in place in that country which many view as Draconian and Orwellian; it is not necessarily that the things produced there are junk. They do produce some very well made products. As for Taiwan, China lay's claim to Taiwan, but it also has not yet ruled over it. Mainland China is Communist and Taiwan is Democratic. They behave as different entities.
You are absolutely right that Chinese pens are great for starting. But they are also "hit and miss", not very durable and more prone to cracks and failures as well. If you buy a quality Japanese or German pen, it could last you a lifetime or even be an heirloom. A Chinese pen would last how many years?
mb 149 is also prone to cracks while you could probably drive a car over a jinhao 159, from a value perspective it is very hard to argue for pens that are 200+...its mostly about wanting something "nice" and nothing wrong with that, i bought plenty expensive pens this last year but some of those purchases are pretty regrettable in hindsight.
Although in theory I agree with you, buying a "quality" pen should be a no-brainer. In practice I've found that not quite the case. I bought a Conklin pen last year and it is the biggest pile of garbage that I have owned. I am not 100% sure but I think it may have been assembled in China though.
I have had an issue with only one Chinese pen - a Wing Sung 699 vacuum filler. I have been lucky so far with all the other pens I have had, but that lick may run out one day.
@@GarryEves I've had a wing sung 220 and 330 and one of them cracked and started to leak and the other one had flow issues after two months.
no matter how many year can use, this cheap price can buy all you life alltime uses new and good pen, than one 1000-2000$ pen yes can use all life time but not any good than buy 10-20 cheap chinese pen. same than car idiot buy 7 million car if can buy ewery year new car cheap and newer not have broken and not have better car.
@@mattivirta Wrong analogy. Cars can be resold. Expensive pens can be resold. Cheap Chinese pens cannot be resold. They usually end up in the trash bin. An expensive car holds value even after 10 years, but the cheap car is worth nothing after 10 years.
you need tie up you hands to back if you speak, i hate peoples who flail him hands alltime if speak, why ? not need hand if speak.
This is one point where I disagree with you.
I filmed a video a couple of days ago talking about this exact topic. The video will be released on my Tricky Little Questions channel in the next month or so.
Can you buy something from a country that is trading those pen dollars for missiles that are intended for your sailors? Buy from friends instead. Buy Taiwan. Buy Japanese. Buy German.
If you watch my other videos you'll see I have a wide selection of pens from a wide selection of countries.
A this is not a global political channel I can not really comment on those kinds of issues.
I have three problems with Chinese pens. Firstly, the build quality and performance. Secondly, you cannot get Broad or genuine Medium nibs on most Chinese pens. Thirdly, I am worried about the appalling human rights in China. No wonder these things are cheap and faulty. The workforce in the Chinese pen factories presumably have miserable lives and are paid peanuts. Has anyone ever seen the conditions inside one of these factories? The Chinese state is overwhelming, and all of the factory proprietors have to be approved by the ruling party. It is an oppressive regime, unlike the governments in all the other countries manufacturing fountain pens. Personally, I feel queasy buying things from a country that still has concentration camps.
@@AdrianLee-i7g I did try and cover all of these in the video. It is certainly a bit of a conundrum.