I am a big collector. Most of my pens are worth hundreds if not thousands. But, I think if the Moonman is a clone of stipula, then the Mont Blanc is a clone of Sailor. I just feel they're almost identical. I have both. I personally feel like some people might think different. I don't think price matters. I feel like most pens are either inspired of a knock off. I hate scammers and hate fakes. But, as long as someone is one stamping their logo and making pens exactly the identical, I am okay with it. I personally think if you wanto save $ and get something good, go with penbbs. Awesome pens, specially the new ones.
I feel like some designs (like the Montblanc 146) are just too simple to say that any similar pen is a knockoff (barring straight up copying the design in full like with the snowflake finial and Montblanc branding). There's only so much you can change in terms of accents and the clip.
I mostly agree with this. There should be a clear and distinct difference between "classic designs" and "new/unique" designs. I don't think there's many people out there accusing sailor as copying Mont blanc. It's a cigar pen with bands. There are a lot of people however, using this comparison to justify straight up copies of new unique pens. PenBBS, Moonman copies being "inspired" creations and that it should be acceptable, since we don't criticize sailor. Renditions of classic designs should be acceptable, but "inspirations" from new unique designs should be seen as absolutely despicable.
”Bird splat” in my humble perspective. I have second hand experience from a Mont Blanc 146, including terrible customer care. So I bought a tru copy of the pen to see if I would like the shape and the weight. I turned out hesitant. So: no Mont Blanc 146 for me. On the other hand I bought a Kaigelu 456, heavily inspired by the parker Sonnet. I really liked the design and weight, but the build quality was unsatisfying. Now the Parker Sonnet is on my wish list!
@@Johan-vk5yd My problem with the "trial pen" idea is that maybe you'll end up buying the real pen if you like the clone, but lots of other people probably won't. When the clone is released into the market, the exclusivity for the unique design is gone. Not in Montblanc's case, but in many other cases, this is a unique design that someone out there worked on, invested in and cared about, now to be ripped off by some stranger who wants to turn a quick buck. Montblanc might not be a small pen company, but that shouldn't change the way we treat their IP. If you said that their pens aren't innovative, I'd agree. But if we disregard their rights to their design, why should the IP value of any design by any company be respected? That normalizes the concept of stealing ideas and designs as being ok. This greatly decreases the value and desirability of the "cool, innovative" designs, since people think that they can get "the exact same thing" at a much lower price. If that becomes the norm, why would any company invest in creating cool new things?
@@jerrytong6395 What I regret the most, is that I bought items of low quality, that in themselves don’t bring me joy. I haven’t bought any new pens since the summer of 2019. I’ll take really good care of the quality pens I already own instead.
It's hard for me to see how the Moonman is more similar to the stipula than the Sailor to the MontBlanc. Sometimes I think the level of originality people demand of Chinese companies is a lot higher than more "established" brands. Also you could argue that the Sailor actually competes with the Mont Blanc, so it hurts the sales. Nobody has a debate between buying the moonman vs. the stipula. So the "damage" done by the sailor "copy" is far greater than the moonman.
I actually thought the exact same thing. IMHO I think the only reason it is “okay” is because of its price and quality. Spending $200 on a montblanc clone of good quality seems to be okay but spending $40 on a montblanc clone is a nono. I honestly think clones are fine as long as you know that you’re buying a clone. I would buy the moonman over the stipula; the stipula is extremely overpriced for a steel nib... Moonman’s quality is good enough that I think I would be happy with the purchase. This is just an example of the buyer making a conscious choice between two products-even if one is a clone.
i think Sailor is forgiven somewhat because the companies started at around the same time, and developed along side each other. they both acquired patents related to fountain pens and they probably licensed each other’s patents too. The original Montblanc nor the Meisterstuck was NOT rounded on both ends and NOT streamlined, but Meisterstuck did have a band. Who had streamlined cigar pens first? I don’t know. Who had the bands? I don’t know. I don’t think it was all done by Montblanc. However, they could have been the first to have the current iconic streamlined + banded pen.
Pens are not covered by copyright!. Hi David, this is a great video about a thorny issue. I understand your position, and I don't think my argument tries to invalidate it, but just want to add some considerations, so bear with me. First, pens as inventions or designs are not covered by copyright, the documents describing its design and the schematics are protected, but not the things themselves. It says so right in Circular 33 "Works Not Protected by Copyright" of the U. S. Copyright Office (Under "Inventions") The most common form of IP protection for devices such as pens is by trademarks, so that nobody can use the names or logos of Lamy, Montblanc, etc. without the owner's permission. As such, the pens sporting the snowflake logo are blatantly infringing on Montblanc's rights. Trademarks can last indefinitely provided that they are enforced by the owner. But a pen that looks otherwise identical to a (say) Stipula does not infringe on their rights unless it uses their name or logo. A second option for IP protection is a 'design patent' of the whole pen or a 'normal' patent of some of its components. The problem with patents is that, unlike copyright, that for practical purposes last indefinitely, they don't last long (at most 20 years, depends on the country). This leads to cases such as the Lamy Safari, whose design patent was granted by U. S. Patent no 264,854 on 1981. That means the patent has expired and **anyone** can make that exact pen without paying Lamy any rights... this is ok, this is the way the system is supposed to work. Again, provided that said anyone doesn't include a trademarked logo or name with the pen. So to me, the situation is as you clearly said, not black and white. I understand why some people dislike seeing copies of a design, but please understand that not all cases are clearly wrong (either legally or morally). Me, I don't mind the pens with similar design, unless they are actively trying to pass as something they're not. So the Jinhao is ok (doubly so for re-using an expired patent), a pen from an unknown manufacturer with a Montblanc snowflake is clearly **not ok**. Any other case in-between, I have no problem with them.
Despite your legal defense, I totally disagree with you. The companies that make exact copies without divulging it openly are doing so in an effort to deceive. Thereby, capitalizing on the image of the original. All in an effort to "make a buck" without the investment. Customers who knowingly buy their products are also trying to pretend. Fake designer clothes and jewelry is similar. I agree with David's position.
@@bigstroke2069 what would you consider “divulging it?” Aside from the MontBlanc counterfeit, the other pens he discussed each go under their own distinct brand name and product ID.
I agree. Take the Keurig coffee machines. Once the patent ran out a lot of machines that were essentially indistinct from the original came into the market. Is it wrong to buy one of those simply because Keurig was the first to come up with the design?
Personally I think another category is worth mentioning: counterfeit. You've got knockoffs which which go about looking like something well established but you still know that it is it's own item. Such as the Jinhao and Lamy. The Jinhao looks like the Lamy but branding on it still says Jinhao. Counterfeit is where a brand will go to great lengths to produce something to fool you into thinking it is the real thing. That fake Montblanc would fit into counterfeit. It's not a real MB but you wouldn't know unless you knew what to look for.
As an artist, this is how I see it: the question of whether you mind buying a knockoff is like asking if you mind buying stolen merchandise. If you enjoy a design, you should buy it from the designer. Otherwise, the designer cannot get paid properly for their idea. Then they aren’t rewarded for their work, and sometimes they can’t afford to make more great designs. When you buy a knockoff you are being self-centered by only considering how the purchase effects you and not how it effects the designer. Designers are people and they deserve respect, especially if you enjoy what they create.
I am going to be very clear or try to be. I completely agree with you. Now that out of the way. This means you are against the secondary market as well because someone is buying an original but not supporting the artist. I like the secondary market because if gives the budget conscious a way to buy an original and someone who will not be using the product it a way to get rid of the item without destroying or putting the item in a landfill. So while I completely agree on purchasing an original to support the artist I also want a good secondary marker.
Modern Scholar Buying an original design on the secondary market still supports the designer by making their product more enticing for others to buy new because it gives the product resell value. Buying knockoffs does not have much to do with the secondary market. Most knockoffs are not resold on the secondary market. They tend to break more easily and end up in a landfill instead of being resold, handed down or used by the next generation. So, even considering the secondary market, I think my point still stands: avoid knockoffs if you value well-made products and the people that make them.
I am thinking about the realities about who has the means to be able to design and promote a product... just because we see it sold by a particular designer doesn’t necessarily mean they were the first to create it... there are tons of inventions that were stolen from poor people and people and people of color and people with less connections and means to get their products patented and sold in their own names... definitely a lot to think about.
Shareese Castillo As far as I can tell you are agreeing with me that people should not buy a pen if they know that it is a knockoff because the money doesn’t go to the person who designed the pen. The extra point that you raise seems to be that if we don’t see the product that is being copied, we don’t know if what we are buying is a knockoff. This is true, but I’m not sure what your solution to this problem would be. I think doing an online search to see if the product is a knockoff before you buy it is sufficient. Is there something more that you would do?
I think it’s hard to say who started the cigar shape at this point. the original Simplo Montblanc or Meisterstuck from 1924 and 1929 are NOT round on both ends, but 1929 DOES have a band ONLY on the cap. On the other hand, the Dunhill-Namiki from 1930 and Namiki No50 Jumbo from early 1930s are more like the current MB in that both ends are round, but not exactly (its not stream lined, ie more like Custom 74). Also Dunhill -Namiki doesn’t have the bands (it has the makie drawings). I couldn’t find exactly when Montblanc had its first streamline and banded pens. there were many other companies already like Waterman, Sheaffer, Parker, Onoto, Pilot, Sailor, etc. so the shape probably rose among those companies, and the band I don’t know. Not many people from back then are alive now so someone will have to dig through lots of papers to tell exactly…
If you take a look at the vintage pens from Germany from the 1950/1960s you'll find a lot of pens that look very similar to the classic MB or Pelikan pens which were designed at that time (for example compare the Kaweco Elite 585G to a Pelikan 400NN). There was never any legal attempt to remove such pens from the market as manufacturers like MB would have had a hard time showing that their design was the original one (it wasn't). Now that some chinese manufacturers enter the market, all hell breaks loose. And it's only the chinese companies that are being blamed. Other companies are excused by making "inspired" pens. Since companies like Jinhao and WingSung proudly brand their pens correctly and (contrary to David's claim) nothing illegal happens here (no copyright infringement, no patent violation) I have absolutely no problem buying such pens. PenBBS is a different case as (apart from their early designs) every pen is an original design and although some models like the 480/308 start with a classic design they add enough original detail to create something new out of that 80+ year old generic form. What I absolutely reject are fakes which pretend to be something else. Those are real rip-offs as the customer is promised something he won't get. I bought a WingSun 699 and I like it although not that much that I would spend money for a Custom 823 as it is too heavy for my liking (both pens have the same weight). I also bought a Moonman M800 and I liked the pen so much that I bought a Leonardo Momento Zero without hesitation because I think the Positano Blue finish tops every of the Moonman finishes (and the Bock nibs are better than the Moonman nibs). I also don't think that those cheaper pens will put a dent into the sales of the luxury brands. If you want a Montblanc 146 you'll buy one regardless of cheaper alternatives as you want that snowy mountaintop finial to show off. People who just want the expensive item may fall more easily for a fake pen than for some similar original pen from a different manufacturer as the fake one has the MB logo. I remember someone asking how to repair the gold plating on his Rolex and someone else replied "you mean your fake Rolex. Real Rolex watches are made from solid 18k gold..."
I totally agree. People get upset because they feel slighted when someone can appear to have the same taste and or wealth for a fraction of the price. It infringes on egos more than copyrights. Let rich people buy their rich people shit, and don't pretend to be rich if you're not. Haha. If everyone knows what they're getting, it's all good.
Thanks for this video. I really appreciate the fact that that you're bringing this issue to the attention of your audience. I do hope more reviewers will follow suite.
"If you have a business model dependent upon stealing from others, that's not something I feel good about supporting" -- well said, David, and I agree 100%
Between Stipula-Moon Man and Sailor-Montblanc duo, it seemed you used a price point to call one pair "clone", and the other pair "inspired". That would suggest if the Moon Man were to be more expensive, then it would/could be categorized as "inspired".
Thank you, David, for doing this video. I agree with you completely. There are some terrific pens out there that have their own design and are just as inexpensive as the "clones". I would rather support these types of copies than the ones who produce the "knock-offs". And, in my opinion, few of those "knock-offs" write well and most fall apart within a short period of time. I would love to see you do a video on "pieced" pens - where a company finds and purchases inferior pen parts of an exclusive brand and puts them together, selling them as new. eBay has many of these out there.
so, what now? just got to the sailor/mont blanc comparison... the first two, the stipula and moonman had almost the exact same differences you spelled out with the sailor and mont blanc.... seems to come down to branding and a "trusted" brand like Sailor vs Chinese brands with their "dubious" copyright issues...
I agree with you. And if I cannot afford the real thing, I can just be patient and save up for it in the meantime and savor the journey towards that dream pen acquisition. One of the biggest reasons why manufacturers/companies that copy other designs exist is because of so many people that do not care at all and just buy their products because they are cheap pricewise..
What's "the real thing"??? If you want a Stipula, buy a Stipula. If you want a Moonman, buy a Moonman. Contrary to the assertions made, they are different pens and neither Stipula nor Moonman claim they are the same or challenge the other's right to make the pen. That's just David's issue. One difference is that the Stipula pens have a terrible QA rep while Moonman has a good QA rep at a fraction of the cost.
I sadly have some China-pens... but I do not show them to others. - A fountain pen is a luxury, something that also should make you feel invested in writing... but using a china-pen just make me a shame or even a fraudster.
Interesting video, although I disagree with your conclusions. To my eye, the two pens that look most similar and would most likely be confused with a casual glance are the Sailor and the Montblanc. They are to me, using your terminology, ‘clones’. The Mont Blanc summit logo is the only missing thing (because it is actually a logo and therefore protected) but casual observers (non-FP geeks) would look at that Sailor on a desk and ask if it was a Montblanc, especially if they didn’t see or know the significance of the summit trademark. Otherwise, the pens are almost identical, allowing for a slightly larger end cap in the Montblanc to house the different internal mechanism. “Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.” So, it seems, do clones like Sailor’s.
I wouldn't really call the sailor a knockoff. Cigar shaped pens are so common, it just happens that Montblanc is the most famous for people not as familiar with fountain pens.
I appreciate your effort and opinion; however, I don't understand how the Moonman can be considered a Stipula clone (especially considering the different filling mechanism)...definitely inspired by and maybe even a knockoff...but IMO I don't think it qualifies as a clone. Actually, the Jinhao seemed more of a Lamy clone. Quite honestly...the Sailor also seemed closer to qualifying as a clone.
I don't think the point is whether you can tell the difference between the original design and the knockoff. If they are similar enough, knockoff pens take away money that should be going to the designer.
@@fountainpeninsanity3344 True...that is the “bigger point” by far. However, he did seem to be making a distinction between “clone”, “knockoff”, and “inspired by”.
@@bradyreid9270 nobody is going to buy a moonman, when they want a stipula. Such inspired by clones or copy pens do not take money away from anybody else.
@@shadowmihaiu agreed. Pens, much like watches, cars, clothes, etc have a practical function that is no longer a consideration past a certain price point. Then it's just a status symbol. I understand what figfoot is conveying, but now all these ppl are coming out of the woodwork saying it's about a moral stance, when it's about virtue signaling and flaunting. If you have stipula, dialog 3, mont blanc, homosapiens pen collection money then you're not gonna bother with ebay or ali express to find pens, and you're not gonna bother with a $20 chinese pen
What the Sailor 1911 has that the MB 149 doesn't is color! Gorgeous colors! Also, I love how Sailor nibs sort of "schwootsch" on the paper. I also have a Wing Sung 699. I bought it to take drawing b/c of the huge ink capactiy and the likelihood of losing it. I also buy real Pilot pens. I have two Falcons. It just depends what I want a pen for. I'm not likely to take my metal Falcon on a hike.
The Sailor 1911 isn't being sold in Germany. It seems that Montblanc was behind this (I don't know if they sued them, there isn't much documented Info around) and some Pilot pens are in the same boat. Asking the retailers all confirm, that they cannot sell Sailor 1911 but usually don't have or don't feel comfortable sharing more detailed information.
@D Fire P No, I encountered the same. Retailers say that certain Sailor/Pilot models, but especially the Sailor 1911 can't be sold (and other models only in colours not resembling the colours Montblanc uses, like the classic black) because they infringe on design rights (Markenrecht), like with Lego for example. The patent on Lego bricks is long gone but the minifigure is an iconic design to which Lego holds the rights so other manufacturers can only sell sets with bricks or with significantly different looking minifigures in them. The same goes for pens.
@D Fire P Maybe, as far as I know is that's what a retailer told. Maybe the retailers you found only offer the 1911 in colours Montblanc doesn't use on their pens? I heard that especially the black 1911 is a problem and that Montblanc doesn't like the others being sold but that their influence here is reserved to using their position on retailers (and not the Markenrecht) but some retailers might be too valuable. But if that last thing is the case is really speculation.
Don't agree on the conclusions of the Sailor/Montblanc comparison. I do firmly believe Chinese pen makers "excel" at cloning/doing knock offs, but it doesn't mean that if a non-Chinese pen maker makes a knock off we shouldn't call them out...
It is not stealing, there is no copyright infringement, as there is no copyright for consumer objects, and if there was a design patent it would be expired by now anyway. Only protection the Pilot Custom 823 has is trademark, and the Wing Sung 699 does not violate that as they do not label it Pilot, or 823, or any of that. You might not like such copying, but it is per se not illegal, and violates no laws here in US, let alone in China. So using loaded language like stealing, or copyright infringement, and the like is not only technically incorrect, but also potentionally slander. (This is tricky as there some exceptions for opinions, etc., but without saying that in your opinion it is stealing it is in gray area. Is this sufficiently a review where opinion is implied, so it would be safe harbored, or an slanderous attack on Wing Sung's reputation that is actionable? Legal opinions would vary.)
@@shadowmihaiu If you say someone is a bastard, but they are in fact legitimately born, then that is slander, or libel if you write/print it. If you say that in your opinion they are a bastard, then that is not slander, because as the courts say everyone has an opinion. So opinions are exempt from the slander/libel laws. Front page of newspaper a statement that is a lie is libel, but in an opinion column it is not a problem. Reviews are generally held to be opinions, so it would likely skate on that technicality in a review. But this video is not a review, but aims to educate the consumer, so perhaps it could be seen as presentation of fact, and so a slander. However, it is on a channel that generally does reviews, so it could be seen as a review because of that. So even though it is clearly an attack, it is only potentially slanderous, and not as clear cut as the intent would make it seem. Ergo, a court would have to decide whether it skates on that opinion exception. Hope that helps.
"Sailor isn't a copy of the MontBlanc because it's also expensive." You can't be serious. Is price the main metric here? "Chinese clone bad, Japanese clone good because $$."
I lost respect for Figboot with that view. .... He says no one would mistake the pens. .. Well I would. 1 or 2 thin lines is the only thing except from the logo... well, I have a Mont Blanc pen, but I did not remember the logo on the end of the cap. Come on Figboot .... you can be better than this. Also the Lamy vs Jinhau are to semilar in looks,,, but not the feeling when holding.
For me the 3 categories should be: influenced or inspired by on one end; fake on the other end (to me this means someone is trying to fool the buyers); and in between all the variations of knock-offs and virtual clones as long as they are not actually pretending to be the more expensive product. I base this on the lack of actual invention (as opposed to design) that is represented in the original pens you showed. There are no new individual components in fountain pens today, they are just arranged or combined in different ways, with different materials on the outside. What matters, and what I hope I'm paying for when I buy an "original" pen, is quality of construction, and a company that stands behind its products. I'm not interested in buying cheap imitations (i.e. the ones in the middle category), if for no other reason than that I prefer, and can usually afford the originals (up to a point -- and I bargain hunt like made at the higher end). The people who buy the imitations are, I think, not people who would be buying the expensive originals, and why shouldn't they have that opportunity? Actual attempted fakes are just dishonest (and they are not limited to new pens, some guy in Korea is making and selling pens marketed as vintage Mandarin Yellow Parker Duofolds). I think copying, though, is fair game, as long as no-one is trying to fool the buyer.
I was going to suggest different categories as well, but you have expressed almost exactly what I was going to suggest, but more articulately than I could have. To me it’s about honesty. And I would back up that I think that many of the examples raised in this video as “inspired by “ seem to me to be very close to clones, just made by more upmarket companies.
Ripoff is an interesting word. These are after all, just pens, sometimes costing hundreds of dollars. If a pen "A" can give you 95% of experience of pen "B" for 10% of the price.. Then which one is really the "rip off"??
That’s fair - but that last 5% can be fairly nebulous and highly subjective. If you were blindfolded, you could probably tell a hand-tuned genuine gold nib from a dime-a-dozen gold color/plated steel nib. Meanwhile, other factors - like the difference between an ebonite/ urushi/ celluloid/ etc. body and a cheap plastic one - probably wouldn’t seem so vast until you took the blindfold off... And even then, does that specific high-cost, sought-after material happen to catch your eye enough to justify the steep price difference? And how much money do you have *going into* the purchase? Is the pen going to set you back a desperate month’s wages? Or is it a drop in the bucket compared to the Scrooge McDuck-esque vault/ swimming pool of gold & coins & treasure that you won in the ‘Stork Lottery’ and were thus born into?
Just my two cents. I'm no expert on this but I feel judging the price of a pen with the 'experience' you get to be too narrow of a criteria. What 'experience' one gets from a fountain pen is subjective; some will buy an expensive thousand dollar fountain pen - for whatever reason- while some will stick with a Pilot Metropolitan. Would Pen A get 95% of the experience of Pen B if one morally disagree with design choices? Even if you don't? Also, the pricing of a fountain pen involves more than just the 'experience'. Who pays for making and designing the fountain pens and getting them to retailers? Who pays for the warranty? Who pays for QA? These amenities are in the price of the pen and often times lacking in 'cheap' fountains pens.
So you're entitled to other people work and designs? Since when did the designers owe indentured servitude to you? Just because a crook is offering you stolen merchandise for 5% the price tag doesn't mean that the store who was selling it for 100% the price tag was "ripping you off". Buying the stolen merchandise means you're complicit with the theft.
@@jerrytong6395 This is what happens when you react emotionally to a rational problem... Absolutely none of what you just wrote is accurate/correct/based in reality. First off, I don't think you know what indentured servitude is, I cannot think of a single way I could draw a parallel between the two without a tremendous reach. Further to that, comparing slavery to an open market might just be in poor/uneducated taste. You may want to go look that up first before using it in an argument again. No one owes me anything.. I'm not talking about stolen pilot 823s being sold out of the back of a truck somewhere. "Stealing" a design or idea is some pretty grey area. Assume we are not talking about knockoffs, where a company fakes a product as the genuine article. If someone can and does make a comparable or competing product at a reduced price, am I not allowed or entitled to explore that option? Ever drank a can of Pepsi? a company that was literally built on copying the success and taste of Coca-cola as closely as possible to sell a comparable product. Both are brown fizzy drinks, one is literally a copy of the other.. no? Maybe because they are roughly the same price? How about your generic Walmart branded Cola? Same basic product at a lower price.. Is every can of Walmart Cola stealing from the Coca-Cola company?That's ok right? But not this.. Not pens.. There is exactly ZERO percent chance you have gone through life buying entirely original products whos idea or design language was entirely created by whoever you bought the product from. It's up to the consumer, me and you, to decide on the value of a product. But If I walk into a shop and buy a $10 cotton white polo shirt, and you go into the store next door and buy a white cotton polo shirt that looks the same, feels the same, is made of the same material but costs $50 because it has a little logo on the tag.. A "reasonable" case can be made that someone got "ripped off" and YOU(the general public) do this every single day... I'm not sure why you are going to draw the line at pens...
@@uhohDavinci I'm not comparing slavery to the open market, I'm comparing slavery with you believing that you are entitled to someone else's time. When you offer that person nothing in return, for the work that they have done, I don't think it's too far of a stretch to compare that to slavery. When you take take advantage of their design by supporting imitators, you are complicit in the theft of the original designer's IP. Are you seriously trying to argue that stealing unique designs and ideas is a "grey" area? It's not. We have copyright laws and patent courts for a reason. Just because people aren't always able to enforce these laws, or that overseas companies don't respect these laws, doesn't mean that they're a "grey area". It doesn't have to say "Stipula" on it to make it an infringement. It's the design, shape, colors, unique identifiers that constitute the IP. Letting people profit from and protect their own creations is well established. You're confusing industries with individual products. Today, fizzy drinks is an industry with a market value of almost 500 billion dollars. Having competition drives innovation. Did Pepsi imitate coke at the beginning and piggy back off of Coke's brand? That is the case however, for imitation pens. A stipula model by itself is not an industry, it's a single unique "art" piece in a larger industry. The imitations hurt the sales of the stipula directly. The perceived worth of the Stipula is decreased because "the cheap one does the same thing". At the end of the day, it's about driving innovation. Does something result in more innovation? Imitation pens deters companies from investing in designing unique, innovative new pens.
Another example is Baoer #79, which is a clear copy of the original MB Starwalker. However, to make it as cheap as possible, they've simplified several of its features and haven't even remotely tried to pretend they were selling an MB at ~1% of the original's price. While I don't like the idea of stealing designs, there's no way in hell I'd ever give MB hundreds of dollars for their ballpoint and rollerballs, but I like the Starwalker design, and I wanted to have all three writing modes without wasting another $1k on the real ones. So I just bought a couple of original MB refills and put them into the Baoer #79 and guess what, now I have a set of Starwalkers in all three writing modes that write precisely as MB designed them to, and I saved a grand, which would have made precisely no difference to the writing experience. At least this way, I have a way of quickly telling the FP apart from the RB. Not my proudest decision, but I stand by it. As a side note, Baoer pens are fairly high-quality for their price. Usually, you'd pay a lot more for a far worse close that quickly falls apart, but most Baoers (I have many more than just the #79 because they're super cheap and very nice BP/RBs) seem pretty solid, especially when compared to the vast majority of super-cheap Chinese eBay pens.
Maybe it’s because I’m a newbie but I would mistake that Sailor for a Montblanc (or visa versa), seems more of a knockoff than “inspired by”. But as someone mentioned earlier, some designs are just too simple to avoid copying
Very great comparison breakdown. When I first got into the hobby, I definitely purchase clones of some of the pens I longed to have. I learned what designs worked for my writing style and which didn't and I was able to decide which direction I wanted to go in the hobby. I now own the real versions of many of those pens and I am torn in this area. I feel that if a company is making a true counterfeit pen, like the rip off MB, where the branding is the same, that is wrong in every way. On the other designs where they took design cues but made something new, like a new filling mechanism like the Moonman, it isn't as bad. There are only so many shapes and designs for pens before you start crossing those inspired/clone lines.
as long as they're not trying to sell the knockoffs as the original, or as a 1:1 alternative, I don't think it's as huge a problem as the original company might. Knockoffs that claim to be one thing, but aren't (14k gold, when it's gold plated (some other) metal, etc) are not acceptable. I can't abide false advertising. 4:48 if you're not paying any attention AT ALL, you might mistake these, but they only JUST barely resemble each other. they don't even resemble each other "to a T", to an F, maybe. I wouldn't even call this a clone, maybe an inspired design, at most. 6:18 Certainly much closer, and if Jinhao weren't emblazoned on the side, someone would absolutely mistake it for a Lamy. those clips are far more than "slightly" different. 8:26 & 11:08 & 12:30 those could absolutely be mistaken for each other, if you don't know the difference. o0 I'm not sure you know how the words "exactly" or "slightly" work…
Ok, it is a tough call. But, I do chuckle when you compared the Sailor and MB you give this the benefit of the doubt and say inspired. Looking at both on the desk I would assume they were the same manufacturer. Let’s face it. Pens and Watches have been around for a relatively long time and with new technology it is hard to come up with new Ideas that people will buy.
I never understood why anyone had issue with stuff like this. This is an issue of patents, which do not last especially long in the grand scheme of things, not copyright, which lasts for quite some time. I'm sure that a lot of these have patents that expired long ago. Additionally, these are not pens being sold as other brand. The Jinhao, moonman, etc branding on their 'knockoff' is quite prominent and does not claim to be anything other than what it is. It is not even in the same price range; they are very obviously cheaper pens. I don't understand why so many want to do a large company's work for them, for free. If Pilot or Montblanc or whomever thinks that their patents are being infringed upon they can and will act upon that. They can have shipments into the US stopped, something that customs does regularly. Hell, just about a month ago customs nabbed a large shipment headphones they thought infringed on an Apple patent. Patents (and copyright, for that matter) should not last forever. At some point an idea must become part of the public domain and when that happens it should be free to use.
That's an interesting subject. I have seen it discussed within many communities -- watches, guitars, guitar effects, knives, you name it. Many people don't bother buying a clone; and their reasoning to do so is not necessarily the difference in price. Some people perceive the marketing strategies of Montblanc or Rolex to be aggressive and arrogant, and the price asked for their products to be ridiculously inflated by how effectively those companies are able to manipulate the gullibility of status seekers. Therefore, the real question is: could one purchase a certain fountain pen solely based on the objective VALUE of that object as a writing instrument? Even though I have collected a number of very expensive fountain pens (many italian ones have interesting self-destroying abilities), my most cherised one still is a Senator, from a calligraphy set, that I purchased about 40 years ago. It has never failed, it is a piston filler, its wetness is perfect with any good ink, its platted parts have never lost their color or shine, and the plastic resin of which it is made is of a higher quality as my MB 149. Pls. Note: when speaking about Pilot, Sailor or Platinum pens, one should not forget that the Chinese products are the new Japanese immitations of the past.
for me, if the Moonman T2 is a copy of Stipula, than the Sailor 1911 is also a clone of Montblanc, not inspired, just different extent in compaire to the Lamy/Jinhao. But well everyone to their own. Thanks for the Video.
Trouble is people are OK with Sailor and not with the Moonman, when the T2 is more divergent from the Stipula then the Sailor is from the Montblanc. So thus the discussion will go on for a while.
Visconti has also "ripped off" the Stipula. But certain people here would say it was an "innovation" if you can get them to even notice it - after all Moonman is a Chinese company so they don't innovate, they rip off.
David--As much as I look forward to hearing you present pens, I appreciate that you occasionally share important topics in the pen world. Your approach to this issue makes it thought provoking without being a diatribe. I imagine most of your viewers will find themselves more aware of this issue and more aware of their own decisions.
I would call the jinhao a (bad) clone, as it has nothing of significance different compared to the Lamy, but I would not call the moonman a clone: the filling mechanism is a pretty important part of a pen, so I would put it in the middle category.
Interesting topic. I have purchased a real Leonardo Momento Zero and soon after saw that there was an exact clone from moon man I think . The Momento was $170 and the copy is $46.. hard to resist, but I did not purchase the copy.. and I bought my wife a Furore original for $200. I am an artist and am very aware of people copying art.. thanks for this video.
If a design has been in the public space for long enough, other companies should be able to make products very similar to it and I don't see a problem with supporting companies that do specifically that. This is true in the case of the MontBlanc vs Sailor, although the lines are blurred in the case of the Lamy vs Jinhao as the Lamy Safari hasn't been on the market for as long as the MontBlanc. This is probably not the case with the Moonman vs Stipula since the Stipula design hasn't been on the market for as long.
Interesting and a thought provoking video, I think that I fall into the grey area on this, I don't mind pens that are clones of pens which are out of production, say Jinhao's clone of the Parker 51, I've also seen a good number of knock offs of the Parker Duofold, but I would draw the line at pens which are currently being manufactured by the original company. However that being said, I'm fortunate in that I am financially in a situation where price doesn't play a major role in my purchase decisions, casting my mind back to being a penniless student living on lentils.. well I probably would have felt differently then.
I didn't feel the same criteria were applied to each pen combo. Other factors were sometimes included eg. whether the pen was also expensive We know that the materials are often the same eg. precious resin vs. acrylic. I think a more interesting evaluation would've been a "blind" test asking folks who don't know the brands to establish which is a knock off vs. inspired by., etc. Maybe even to guess which is the inspiration...
I don't think having such a blind test would establish anything. Whatever the average Joe says about, say, the Pilot Custom 823 and it's knock-off doesn't change the underlying facts. That ripoff clone has pretty much the same design and it even has the same colour offerings! They can even be bothered to come up with some other colours!
@@blargvlarg1390 wondering if you say this about all the pencil manufacturers that make yellow hexagonal pencils with a round pink erasers at one end and a silver metal collar.
@@tsherbs1309 Yes, if it can be established that there is a blatant attempt to imitate something wholesale. I don't have a problem with products being similar but I find it morally distasteful when fountain pens start 'accidentally' having pretty much the same design, colour offerings, and/or unique features.
@@blargvlarg1390 what's immoral about immitation? It's done throughout the art and manufacturing and cultural world. Humans are immitative animals. We thrive on it. We find out what works and what sells, and then we compete to outdo each other with the same idea. Fakes are a form of fraud, but what is morally wrong with making a green pen that looks very similar to a green Parker 51? Really, what is the "moral" here? Thou shalt be original? Like, once one company makes a round, brown, salted potato chip, no one else can?
@@tsherbs1309 Like I said, I have no problem with mere imitation/similarity. I don't have a problem with things looking similar or taking 'inspiration' from something else. My issue stems from what I assume unfair (which you could disagree with). Take the Wing Sung 699, the 823 knockoff mentioned for example. The 699 is essentially the $30 823. When people talk about the 699, the 823 is almost always mentioned. It's almost as if the 699 is dependent on the 823 to sell. Pilot spends much money and does the actual R&R, marketing, etc. for the 823 while Wing Sung rides on the coattails by essentially copying the 823. Is this mere imitation? Is the 699 just a 'green pen that looks very similar to a green Parker 51'? You could disagree on what I find unfair. Maybe not. I don't have a problem with companies taking inspirations from another. Nobody should own the basic cigar shape. Nobody should own a particular colour or combination. But when one start skirting the 'fake' line, when do you say no?
For the twsbi you could easily have added the pilot 92 or pelikan models. Who gets to monopolize a clear piston filler market. Do we ask these questions if the pens were ball points or pencils at the local store? Walmart has store brands that are clearly trying to take sales from zebra and pilot. Ulitimately differences in quality are present at all levels, however basic functionality is the same. For the 699 if I dont lear that I like / dislike vac fillers I would never consider putting out close to $300 for the 823.
So David, is it still a copy/clone if the clone wipes the floor with the original in regards to performance? I found that to be true with the 823 I owned and the 699 I still have.
I have both, and the 823 trounces the 699. What did you do to mess up the pilot. The 699 rattles when shaken and the nib is passable, not even as good as some of the Wing Sung 698s that I have.
@@papadage Quite possibly that was part of the problem, I did nothing to the 823. I tuned four 699s, put different inks in each one and left them for a year. I have 250 pens in my collection ranging from MBs, Pelikans and Viscontis down to about eight Chinese pens and I didn't miss using the 699s. I tried the 699s after a year and every one of them wrote flawlessly, and I do mean no hard starts, skipping or any other problems. And they don't rattle. I am not a big fan of Chinese pens, but I can't argue with success. Cheers
I really want to own a nice pen that works well. I am on a very limited budget and I would own an original if I could afford it. Please don't think bad of me.
You are right! I have a fairly extensive collection (really just starting out) and the most expensive pen I own is $40. I shop value and high review and hope for the best and so far have not been disappointed.
See now, the Sailor and the Montbanc look just enough alike that if it were a Microsoft product, Microsoft would probably charge you a royalty for using it. At least the Lamy knock off copied a cheap pen, and Pens would be a hard thing to keep original, and everyone would just be inspired by the original fountain pen though.
In Germany there is exactly this problem. It's really hard to find a retailer who has the Sailor 1911 or the Platinum 3776 in simple colors like black, because they do not want to get in trouble with Montblanc because of the similarities of the pens. The 3776 for example you can only get in the special edition with the unique colours, but not the cheap versions of it, if you don't want to import them by your own.
As far as I know Montblanc actually sued Sailor, but did not win. I am not sure that the Montblanc design is older than the Japanese one (some Say the Meisterstück dates back to 1924, but others will nuance that the Meisterstück 149 with its present shape is rather from the 1950's. Then the Sailor Profit 1911 dates back to the 1980's, but Sailor might have been producing similar cigar shaped fountain pens in the 1930's. In any case, Sailor pens sport fantastic nibs, way better than Montblancs counterparts, unless you go up to the big 149 (I mean the nib of a 144 or Chopin provides a boring experience, rather similar to a steel JoWo nib, whereas Sailor 14k and 21k nibs are very "expressive" with a tad of line variation, and are also extremely precise. Some do not like their feedback, but many of us think their are close to perfection). Now, if You do not want to keep on giving such explanations (I have been through that myself) and in order to avoid people thinking you got a knock-off, the best thing to do is to go with the Pro Gear line of Sailor. Same quality of nibs, but a slight different look, they being a tappered cigar shape with square ends.
One other item to consider is the likelyhood that the pens you criticize may actually be the original manufacturer or supplier for the components. Is it a coincidence that many Chinese brands use Lamy or Pilot styled nibs? The monteverde monza was clearly a jinhao 992 first. There are probably hundreds of pens over time that are the same shape as a Parker Duofold - no critique of them? Kaigalu 316, Moonman M600, Conklin Duragraph, Pilot Ch91, sailor pro gear. Etc. Etc. Etc. Virtually any pen with a flat ends or cigar shape can be considered an immitation of something else.
Thank you for this review. My position is to never buy cheap copies of pens that took years to develop. Your video also convinced me of unsubscribing from channels that occasionally praise these copies. I value honesty, and I agree it’s unethical to buy these products even for reviewing purposes. Keep up your great work!
You would be referring to trademark law and patent law with respect to the design of a device. Copyright only applies to a "recording of information on a tangible fixed medium". Unfortunately, because the fountain pen existed before there was a such thing as trademark or patent law, its doubtful that such could be enforced with respect to the design of any one pen.
In my country, copyrights expire 50yrs following the death of the creator/author. Dr. Manfred Lamy, the creator of the LAMY 2000 and LAMY safari, retired in 2006. As such, it is my opinion that ANY pen manufacturer making pens in the likeness of either of these pens should be shunned, as their copyright certainly hasn't expired yet. This is but one example - and it's an easy one. It could be argued that the 50yr copyright 'retention' law is itself far too lengthy (and I'd agree). But it's still the law. So if my research uncovers a manufacturer who blatantly 'duplicates' or 'copies' the design of goods with copyrights still being held (and I'm aware of it), I'll give these manufacturers a wide berth regardless of what else they may be creating. This is just my own view. You are most welcome to agree or disagree. Cheers!
Thanks for the topic, David. Other than fakes, I have no issues with clones, knockoffs, etc. I have bought several. But more because they were good pens for low cost (good value in my price range). A few for their looks, but I am not at all interested in brands, and fakes are usually attempts to overcharge for cheap trash.
none of the knock off, inspired by or clone bother me, as long as the brand name is the actual maker of that pen... say the Wing Sung 670 highly resembles the Parker Duofold but it says WingSung on it., then when you buy it, it's still lacking that "clout" and originality. It's the difference between an artist study of a master piece and straight up forgery or counterfeit and some modern knock offs have their own advantages like cartridge converter fill vs push button sack fill
IMO, the Moonman T2 and Stipula are defiantly not copies / clones. Maybe exterior design influenced by but in no way a copy / clone. To be a copy / clone parts have to be interchangeable to me. If I can't tear both apart and randomly grab parts and pieces and assemble two items again they are not copies / clones. These two pens don't even use the same filling system. I always enjoy your vids but I think calling the T2 a clone is way off base.
Imo wing sung 699 is definitely inspired by the 823, not a knockoff. It isn't trying to be an 823, otherwise it would be a fake product, not inspired or a "clone" as I like to call them, although a clone does imply it would be the same as the original
I'm going to say this is not a good reason to avoid purchasing Chinese pens or Chinese anything. You should avoid purchasing Chinese anyting, because the Communist Party of China uses slave labor and has murdered at least 50 million and up to 72 million of its own people in order to maintain power and economic support. That's a good reason to avoid Chinese products
I have enjoyed various reviewers' approaches to this subject. Ethical considerations are always worthy of attention, even if it is, so to speak, "just a pen." Another review I enjoyed is SBRE Brown's review of the Stipula Splash and its dependence on the Dollar pen from Pakistan. I have a German pen, Faber-Castell Loom, with a Chinese cap--or is it just the clip, since "China" is impressed on the underside of the clip. I'm pretty sure I recall seeing reviews of vintage pens noting that Parker stole from Sheaffer, or was it Sheaffer that stole from Parker, I forget.
I think I probably currently fit into the has no ability to drop over 100 on a pen yet so a knockoff does kinda interested me, like an opus 88 interests me because of the ability to put a pilot parrellel nib in it but I just can't afford one and I've heard a $30 tramol can do the same thing so maybe my morals aren't as strong but I'd rather be able to do this fun nib swap now instead of waiting for the day I can afford the real opus 88, I don't think I have any knockoffs yet tho unless the M2 is a knockoff of someone but I love it
I would have to say...for luxury collector products a lot of people are buying a name. So I’m not sure how much it matters. In these cases I think how it works is pretty important too. Do they work exactly the same? A Porsche just isn’t a Porsche unless it says so. I think the same with pens we collect.
For me I personally don't mind supporting brands that are inspired or even "heavily inspired" but I do make a clear distinction with counterfeit/fakes which I avoid as their intention is to deceive the customer. I doubt many people will confuse a T2 with a Stipula as they have a different branding and filling system. I ask myself why hold this moral standard with pens but not everything else in my day to day life?
Well I'd argue that we need to do more to protect the pen economy since it's more fragile, than say electronics. I can say with a good degree of certainty that the pen business isn't exactly a lucrative market. Most of the pen shop owners, pen designers and pen makers do it out of passion for pens. Most of these businesses are small scale with a few employees. If we don't do more to protect these businesses, they are much easier to kill off, compared to say a large American electronics company. And when they get squeezed out of the market by lower cost imitations, we won't be getting new fun designs in the future. We should absolutely hold ourselves to a higher moral standard when it comes to pens, if only for the future designs and ideas these small businesses come up with in the years to come.
@@jerrytong6395 my issue with this argument is that it creates a clear double standard, if it happens to both parties shouldn't we be equally concerned rather than picking one simply because it has a smaller following. To me this would be a clear contradiction as you appose a certain act of but are fine with it as long as it doesn't happen to something you like.
@@i.c.3157 I didn't absolve the electronics companies for copying each other, I used them as an example for industries that are more resilient to IP theft, as opposed to pen companies which are more fragile. Even though they are more resilient, I did not say that it was ok. The electronics companies that steal IP are equally as disgusting as pen companies who do such. We should hold all industries to the highest moral standard.
Competition helps in a commercial market. Other than colors Lamy has been stagnant. The Aon was poorly made with a loose cap in the same segment as the studio. Jinhao 599 proves that the true cost of a Lamy should be closer to $7-8 not $20+
I would like to have a Parker DuoFold Senior in good condition, but even if I could find one, it would be very expensive. However, I found a Montegrappa from 1935 (as I recall) that is very close to the same size and shape and also a button filler. The material of the body is IMO nicer than any of the Parkers and hasn't shrunk at all. the pen has a steel flex nib made by a Montegrappa subsidiary that is in some respects better than a Parker nib--perhaps less durable in rough hands. The pen could well have been inspired by the Duofold, but is different enough that the two can't be confused, and it is one of my favorites.
It’s easier to argue a pen that copies say Montblanc Homer, Ludwig, or montegrappa Got series are copycats because those pens have an artistic value to it. Some classic styles like the cigar shape, transparent cigar shaped vacuum fillers in this case, or even triangular pens like omas 360 are just too basic and one one cannot claim all cigar shaped pens, transparent pens or even triangular pens copycats. Else, we would only have a hand full of brands and a bunch of knock offs. Pens are pens, there’s only so much one can do to a cylinder.
I a little late to the party, but had to throw in a couple of thoughts on the subject as I have seen this brought up in other channels recently, especially with regard to the Moonman 800 vs the Leonardo Momento Zero. Spending hundreds of dollars on a pen is just not realistic for me, so while I admire them, just not going to happen. To me the law of diminishing returns starts at around $100, but that is just MY watermark and mostly because I am one of the few who doesn't enjoy 14k nibs. And I like F or EF nibs. (The exception for me would be an Urushi pen. Sigh. ) I would offer that the two pens appeal to different markets - the folks that can and do buy the higher end pens are not going to buy the cheaper pens just to save money. Most ( my opinion ) folks buying the cheaper pens are not diminishing sales for the higher pens because they just aren't in the same market category. I would also suggest that someone just getting into the world of FPs needs to try out different styles, nibs, etc. before discovering what they like and often these other pens can be a way to do that before going down a much more expensive rabbit hole. Along with my other pens I have a couple of PenBBS, Moonman and Jinhao pens which are fun to write with and I enjoy them. I have one with a Fude nib which is an everyday favorite (custom Bobby grind). Will they last forever? Probably not, but I am under no illusion that they will, nor did I buy them because they resemble a MB or a Pilot, etc. I am not a collector. I am a user of my pens, so if I get a year or two out of a $25 PenBBS I will be happy. I have no tolerance for any of the products which are clear fakes and try to pose as the real deal. Those should be outright banned. I like to read everyone's comments, and glad we have a place to express our thoughts freely. I just wish that folks would make themselves aware of what kind of 'rights' actually apply to these products and stop with the blanket rejections just because someone else announces that something illegal is being done. Think about that the next time you take generic medicine for $4 instead of the branded $400 one.
8:42 No. Uh-uh. Nope. No way. I'm sorry. I've heard it a hundered times and I think that denying that Sailor 1911 is a MB 146 clone is a kiss of death to credibility of the argument about this issue. These pens are nearly identical and I'm pretty certain that a person unfamiliar with these models would have a serious problem telling them apart without looking ar the brand marks. The only reason I can see that anyone would say something like this is that Sailor isn't a Chinese company and 1911 doesn't cost $20. I'd bet anything that the same people who deny that 1911 is a clone of 146 would gladly accuse Sailor of "infringing" of MB's design if was a Chinese pen for $20. By the way, "infringement" is a really unfortunate term here, as unlike "knock off" or "clone", "infringement" is a legal term which is for the most part used incorrectly in this matter. The legal protection of patent/design is limited in time and after it expires, making a "clone" of the design does not breach any laws and does not "infringe" anything. Don't take this rant the wrong way. I enjoy this channel and your videos very much, but on this issue I'm definitely in the, let's say "liberal" camp. And some positions, as the one about the Sailor, I just don't find understandable.
I wonder if these Chinese knockoff pens are made due to availability. Do the original companies sell in China? If not, maybe that's why they make these. Seeing as I am not in China, however, I do not buy these pens unless they are “generic pen shaped” or “inspired by” others. Examples include the Jinhao X750 or 159.
The "original" companies typically manufacture in China and the standard deal is that the Chinese company gets the benefit of the tooling/plant. They have actually agreed the local company can sell similar products. That's why you don't hear the "original" companies complain.
If the copies were actually sold under the names of the original designer thereby being fakes and possibly devaluing the original designer then it is bad and I would never purchase a pen no matter the price knowing this. But most of them are not sold as the other pen and often do not mention the other pen at all, and due to the major difference in price and quality they are not actually impacting the original designer and they are not taking any of their customers because a person who is willing to buy a much more expensive but better quality pen will not buy a knockoff instead just to save money. And a person who cannot afford the original pen but likes the aesthics can buy the copy in the knowledge that it is not the real pen but without spending a lot of money. I have a WingSung 699 and as a very attractive and well functioning vacuum filler for £17 it is a great offer to me as I am a student and cannot afford Pilot's pen which is almost 10x more expensive to get in the UK and if I did have one I would constantly be worried about losing or damaging it. I support what these companies are doing by offering good looking cheaper pens but I do think that they need to make some new designs of their own to help their reputation and provide something new to the market.
I will not categorize Wing Sung 698 as a knockoff after TWSBI 580 , i also heard that 698 it's also a knockoff of TWSBI Eco if i do that then I better categorize TWSBI 580 , Eco as a knockoff after the Pelikan M : 205 , 405 , 605 , 805 Transparent versions ! I believe more that Wing Sung 698 it's inspired by Pelikan M : 205 , 405 , 605 , 805 Transparent versions instead !
This is too much. If the basic design is the cigar, has not everyone copied it? The pen can have a round bottom and top , or a flat one. How many variations can we have here? Pen without a bottom? Next you can go on disputing the nib shape. How many differences one can have? What about the feed then? And what about the material? If some one has black plastic or resin, no one else can have it? If such standard is extended to pencils, what would happen? If such niceties are insisted upon, there cannot be ten companies making violin or guitars or flutes! Look at the cars! Do they not all conform to some basic shapes and scientific and engineering principles? I feel this is a matter where IPR is inapplicable and disadvantageous, except for the lawyers. Fake product is a different matter and that should be dealt with under criminal law. Unconscionably high price would attract clones or imitations or inspirations. This cannot be stopped or prevented. In a sense it is good for the normal consumer- though not for one bent on conspicuous consumption as a status symbol. There is enough product differentiation to rule out ideas of perfect cloning, imitation or inspiration. I have one Montblanc and twenty Jinhao 159s. These Jinhaos cost less than $7 and write MUCH BETTER THAN MONTBLANC! They are also more sturdily built. (Drop both from a high table on the hard floor and see the difference- Jinhao emerges undamaged!) Why should I then object to a clone or imitation or inspiration?
spicy comments section, i like it. I'd buy Japanese gold nib pens because of how it writes at half cost of western ones, save for designs, have a chinese copy of sailor profit/1911L but I can't bother with its too large line for medium nib, not mentioning uncharacteristic writing experience, I'm saving my limited desk space for I'm already swamped by too many 'new thing, fancy' so Japanese shape copies are perfect for me to keep me fron collecting-hoarding chinese pens. Now I'm also a digital artist, buyer and user of Chinese 3D printers that are indisputed enablers, but I live in country where distributors are trying all they can to hike price for their profit, and there wasn't many distributors so for some time I was stuck to pay more than western countries can have down to the much better aftersales, and parts. In the case of risk and service purchasing those two, FP has much more risk, but I guess I was lucky that I got all 3 major japanese pen brands with gold nibs to love their absolutely different good writing experiences to one another. As an artist, I highly respect uniquely good things, but I welcome honest imitation, I'd prefer the market being able to choose better for themselves but not fight over simple pricing issue. The exact artistic expression which fp manufactures boast of is one to seek individually. The 10000 year brush meaning for fountain pen in japanese/chinese(it kanji, actually Chinese of origin too) is exaggerated yet became house name, taking it for real, there should be only few to make favorites of, and Chinese pens do not suit many ideas I believe to be better for my life because I can't better attest to the price that means a throwaway or buy and never use
It does bother me to see a close imitation of a recent and very distinctive pen design, such as the Moonman M800 being a virtual clone of the Leonardo Momento Zero. And yet, buying the Moonman has led some people to wanting to get the original Leonardo. Personally, I might never even have heard of the Leonardo if not for the Moonman. On the other hand, Wing Sung resurrecting the Parker 51 design in their 601, and even improving on it, is a reason to celebrate, as far as I'm concerned. Parker isn't making those pens anymore, but we can still have that great workhorse design in a modern pen that doesn't need to be babied because it's 60 years old and priceless. And let's not forget that pen manufacturers imitating each other goes back to the 1920s, when Conklin came out with the Duragraph a couple of years after Parker invented the Duofold. By the way, I have a couple of Wing Sung 698s and it never even occurred to me that they copied TWSBIs. They have distinctive Pilot nibs (clones, not inspired by!), lack the iconic TWSBI diamond barrel design, have glunky overweighted caps that don't seem TWSBI-like to me, and the plastic feels very different from any TWSBI I own. But when you put them side by side I can see some resemblance. (Mine are not clear demonstrators so the resemblance is less obvious.) I would say they are "inspired by" TWSBI far more than being "clones." PenBBS has also used a similar flat cap ring design in some of its pens.
Interesting takes but as stated there is a lot of grey in between , I had the same feeling that giving business to those copies ,and some knock off simply encourage those bad behaviour. Sadly am seeing a trend those same company who churns out knockoffs might also had pen totally original styled but yet those will not sell as good as the copies, the knockoffs even if it's a better pen. The fountain pen community are also faulted in itself being too entrenched with some set mind on what's what. Montblanc Vs Sailor example clearly so . That style was not even Montblanc original, before Montblanc adopt it that style was long used by other Mfr yet today we see one like this we say it's Montblanc styled ! That goes with the Parker Duofold which is in itself copying design from the even earlier Waterman's. So while I agree with the stance, I had to say a large part of this kind of bad market notion come from us the customers .
I think you could have also brought in the platinum 3776 and president among others - there is nothing uniquely valuable about a monte blanc other than name brand.
Eloquently argued. I'm not completely in agreement on some aspects but that is fine; these are all opinions (mine included). For me the most blatant cases are where a manufacturer actually passes off their product as someone else's. I frankly consider that theft and my views may be stronger than yours. Look on eBay for "Parker sonnet series". The pen says Parker. It is sold as a Parker. The converter is sold as Parker and sometimes even the converter format/diameter is Parker-compatible. I bought a couple of these before I knew what I was doing (I've been in this hobby under a year). I have one genuine Sonnet and one that I bought second hand as a genuine Sonnet, priced as such, and as far as I can tell it's a genuine Sonnet. When someone brands a product as someone else's work then that is passing off. I'm more neutral about "inspired by". The main use for these in my case has been to learn the hobby, to get myself into the zone, to learn how to look after them. I've bought a stupid quantity of the genuine article (such as Lamy including 2 studios and a 2000), there's a stupid number of Preras, Metros and MRs in my hoard, and so on. There are also many Wing Sung 3008s 3001s and so on. I have a couple of 699s bought so I could decide if vac filling is for me. In fact I have the 823 on my wish list for purchase in the next month or so. I think in summary that these pens have their place but I would like to see brand owners taking a more aggressive takedown stance on the passing-off brigade. You would not hear of Nike, Adidas or Lacoste putting up with it. The likes of these fake Parkers should be no different, not least because innocent new-user buyers may not know what's fake and what is not.
Every time I think of getting a sailor, I don't because I feel like it is a knock off of the mont blanc. To me, there are a slot of mont blanc knock offs bc its the classic expensive pen that non people know. If someone who doesn't know sees the sailor I thunk that they would think its the MB. In terms of similarity, it is just as similar or even more so than the jinhao to the lamy. I know the sailor is a nice quality pen worthy of its price, I would just always feel like it's a MB clone
See, that's Dave's issue. He characterizes it as theft in essence, when at our law there is absolutely nothing wrong with it for very good moral reasons. See my own commentary on this down below. If people think about this properly, instead of getting up in arms over the idea that's something like an idea was owned by somebody already, they would understand the real issue. Which is can you use a design that is created by somebody else. Our law, and our moral code say absolutely yes, absent very very specific protections.
I wanted to mention again that thanks to you David I got a limited edition bloody pumpkin bottle of ink from Papier plume! My birthday is on Halloween and it was a gift to myself that I would not have known about were not for you! Thank you sir!
good video, I think all pens can be inspired by unless they are claiming to be that pen when they are not ie a fake I dont see how a sailor 1911 is inspired but a Chinese pen is a knock off
people buy the sailor pens because they love the characteristics of the sailor as it is not because they look like a MB. but people buy the knockoff because they just look like an expensive alternative and nothing more.
@@mrrubymrcapri37 I don't think most moonman fans are buying the T2 because it is a "knock-off" of a stipula but moonman still draws criticism by "copying" them.
I got some faux Lamy's when I was 1st starting out most where shitty but even my partner that has a few fountain pens at the time and was alot more versed at this thing was like damn that is actually not bad and was only like AU$2 with free shipping we don't use them any more but i like it coz it was clear and all the metal parts the nib and clip were that rainbow finish which is a favourite thing of mine but we have amassed a decent collection now from my obsession with Twsbi, gift giving eachother and getting that Inkredible box from Truphae The area yes is pretty grey however I think back to Lego and what they have been through and finally won the right to there products in China and surprisingly the Chinese government has been shutting down the Lepin factories and jailing the owners. I'm a Lego collector and I hated Lepin and other companies as it was so cheap looking the quality was crap and you could feel the difference in the material and sometime the parts just didn't fit. Now thinking about this subject do I care for knockoffs or people buying them considering myself have in the past No and Yes. I guess I have grown in this short 10 months since purchasing those faux lamy's off aliexpress I dont need them anymore and I dont care if people buy them as we all start somewhere and these can (cause most as bad) are great to start off with get a feel for them then take that next step to maybe a real lamy with a different nib size coz the fake ones are one size and thats it I've realised in the years I would buy something fake if I like it I will go out and buy the real deal and I think this is like with alot of people do you like it that much to pay the dollars for it.
the annoying thing with this disccusion is that no one is able to bring out a knock off or a copy that is not chineese to the table or dare to say it's a knock off. so it raises this question do you have to be chineese to make a knock off product? i think this is not a healthy discussion since the examples are from only one country when we know that every intelligent being can copy.
I am so glad that you made this video. And I am in the majority camp. However, I do beg to differ in regards to the 1911 v Montblanc. I have never seen them side by side, but after watching your video, I would argue that 1911 WAS a knock off until it isn't. Just look at their nib imprint! The extent of my anti-knock-off perspective has led me to not own a sailor despite the praise that it receives. I am sure you are familiar with how the Japanese automotive industry rips off American/ European designs in the 60s and produced more fuel-efficient cars, etc. I think the Chinese FP market is going through sth similar. Unlike Moonman, Sailor has gone through the test of time and has developed their own signature profile to become who they are now. In my opinion, People who purchase a black 1911 look is after how they write rather than how it looks. Although I am skeptical of Chinese FP manufacturers ever achieving what sailor was able to do, I think one should acknowledge that 1911 is a knockoff that has gone right.
Even the quality and performance is very similar, the Chinese companies are able to sell these products relatively in low price because of their unethical labor practices with dirt-low wages, human rights abuses, bad working conditions, no environmental regulations and not allowing any unions. So the problem is not just infringement of copyright but other issues as well. I agree that some of the European and Japanese brands have outrageous prices and not many people can afford them, precisely because of their fair labor practices and paying decent wages to their workers, so on and so forth. As you concluded, it is a personal choice. Thank you David.
Eh, as a Chinese, I have to correct you that they do allow union - but only "the union" which is under the lead of the communist party, and is almost always useless, if not used against the worker's rights.
I think you're looking at this from the wrong side. It's not really that Chinese fountain pens are especially cheap. At least not just that. It's that western branded pens are horribly overpriced in the first place. The main problem being the fact that when you buy a Parker or a Montblanc, apart from the product itself, you pay for the brand and for the abstract idea of the product being "luxury". This isn't the case when you buy a Jinhao or a Moonman. You don't pay a penny for the brand and the "luxurity".
Thanks for the review, David. I didn't know about the poll and must admit I'm surprised the "I don't mind stolen design" camp is as large as 43%! Such a result means it's not just the ethics of companies producing copies/knockoffs is wrong (or non-existent), but the ethics of buyers of their products, as well. That's why reviews like this one are important, so thank you again.
Well of course the words stolen and copyright infringement are intended to already make your decision easy. At least this time, David says it's his opinion. There is no moral issue with this in any way shape or form. See my own comment.
David - I am genuinely interested to know why, when you say that Wing Sung are “doing everything within their power to match the look of the Pilot 823” why they wouldn’t have copied the Pilot clip exactly? Surely not very difficult given everything else they’d copied. It’s not like that Pilot clip is complex, so wouldn’t have changed the production costs.
@D Fire P Normally I’d buy that but clearly if they wanted to do “everything in their power” - as David said - to copy an 823, copying the Pilot clip was very much within their power, since they copied everything else. I’d argue that what they are doing by slightly modifying the clip and band and putting their logo on there is really not any different to Sailor slightly modifying the end cap and finial of a Montblanc, putting their name on it and removing Montblanc’s logo, which they would have to do as this is a legal trademark. I find it interesting how deeply anti-Chinese bias pervades the judgements here. When a premium Japanese company does it, it’s ‘inspired by’ and when a more budget-minded Chinese company does it, it’s a ‘clone’ or a ‘knockoff’. Even the choice of words - inspiration vs knocking off - reveals this deep-seated bias.
Well let's be honest: David hasn't any knowledge about what Wing Sung or any other manufacturer is doing or why. He is choosing his words here in an effort to persuade people that manufacturers he doesn't like are bad people. He certainly seems to feel it's fine to assert poor ethics on manufacturers from certain countries, while being happy to excuse the same design attitudes in others. As I pointed out, Visconti has clearly appropriated the Stipula design. But Moonman with the T2 gets criticized. Likely the "copying" he complains of was already "copied" by Stipula.
Thanks you for an interesting video, however i would dispute your conclusion on the Moonman as being a clone it is certainly "Inspired by" the Stipula but as there are many fairly significant differences i.e. size, the clip, the filling mechanism and also that fact the it quite clearly states that it is a Moonman pen it is not an exact copy therefore it is not a clone. I would suggest that the sailor is the closest of the lot to being a clone although again is not an exact copy to technically not a clone. I agree that blatant copying and passing yourself off as the original is wrong, I do feel that for many of us the price is a big factor, i like to collect different styles of pen and as such i cannot afford to be spending $200 - $500 dollars on pens regularly so the choice becomes one r two expensive pens or 9 or 10 cheaper ones accepting that as a rule they probably won't be as good as the original.
While I understand people’s concern over IP theft, these knockoffs and clones do serve a couple purposes in my mind: One is as a trial pen. Take the pilot clone. Maybe I really like the design and filling mechanism of the pilot, but don’t have a store anywhere around me where I can hold it, try filling it, etc. 280 or whatever they’re retailing for online these days is a lot to spend blind for what is essentially a luxury item that serves very little practical purpose. But, I could maybe justify snagging that cheap clone off of eBay and seeing if I really like the design enough to grab the luxury version. A second purpose these can serve is as a barometer for how much I’m being charged by the established brands for design and “labor” alone. What I mean is this: if a clone comes out from China with the exact same design and materials, but costs orders of magnitude less, then the difference I’m paying for is the design IP held by the original company and the knowledge that it was their machines and workers who made it. With that knowledge, I can decide if I feel the cost is worth it. You don’t even have to buy the knockoff in this case. (I put labor in quotes, because it seems that in several industries, when a Chinese clone appears that is nearly indistinguishable from the original save brand name, it’s because the original was made at the exact same factory, by the same folks, using the same materials, only with a different logo and brand name, and perhaps shipped off to be “assembled in” a different country. I often wonder if anything like this goes on in the pen industry.)
I used to hold a similar opinion to yours, it's gradually changed over the last few years. I really don't want to come off as being critical of what you've said, but I'd like it if you could hear me out. My problem with the "trial pen" idea is that maybe you'll end up buying the real pen if you like the clone, but lots of other people probably won't. When the clone is released into the market, the exclusivity for the unique design is gone. A unique design that someone out there worked on, invested in and cared about, only to be stolen by some stranger who wants to turn a quick buck. This greatly decreases the value and desirability of the original design, since people think that they can get "the exact same thing" at a much lower price. This directly hurts the original designer. Even if the clone pen is manufactured in the same factory, I don't think that makes a difference. When a designer contracts a factory to create the design, he is not giving that design to the factory. If the factory goes around the owner, and produces the design, they are stealing the IP. But that's not even the worst part. When the pens are bought from the original company, the $ difference for IP you mentioned, doesn't just go into the designers pocket. Only a small fraction does. This $ value is split between pen distributors that then sell to pen shops which then sell to the consumer. These companies are keeping their staff employed, that's media people, sales people, packing people and more. You might not care about these people, but they are the ones who will be affected if buying a "identical pen save brand name". Sure, we're not going to bankrupt the pen shops by buying one "identical pen save brand name". But if we normalize this kind of IP theft, we're chipping away at the market share for these companies, year by year. And some years down the line, we might ask ourselves, what happened to all the pen shops where we could try pens and share our hobby?
@@jerrytong6395 A couple points in reply; and again, I completely understand the concerns, I’m just trying to offer insight into why some people don’t get so bent out of shape about it. As to the first response you gave, I’m not sure that the availability of knock-offs or clones really takes away from the desirability of the original. If anything, it’s a testament to just how high of a desirability the original has. We saw this in the past with people trying to buy just the cap for old Parker pens to look like they owned a prestigious item. I’d be willing to bet that any of those people would have purchased the actual pen had they had the means to do so. We see it in our current day with knockoff Mont Blancs, rolexes, Gucci bags, etc. The imitators have done nothing to hurt the desirability or exclusivity of the brand. I’d even say it encourages those who are able to purchase the real deal, because then they have the status symbol, luxury item, etc. that everyone else merely pretends to have. Moreover, I’d say that it also could encourage sales. As I said previously, an extravagant purchase like a luxury fountain pen might never be justifiable in someone’s mind. But then they get the knockoff and the “itch” sets in. “I like this one,” they say to themselves, “it’s all I need. I was so smart to save all that money.” Then they find themselves looking at pictures of the real deal online...they start spotting slight differences...they start to wonder, “can everyone else tell that I have the cheap knockoff?” Then, a year or two later, this person who otherwise never would have purchased it originally finds themselves online buying a $600 fountain pen and wondering how they’ll explain it to their spouse. As to the second reply, I think you misunderstood my point. My point isn’t that I would want to buy the cheaper alternative, but rather that the cheaper alternative gives me a baseline cost of what the physical object of the pen itself is actually worth. With that information, I can now decide if what the original company is charging me is a fair markup for the item, or if I’m paying for overpriced marketing hype or a poor business model. I agree that labor charges are widespread for the original company, and that maybe their business model (including their marketing budget, sales team, social media folks, etc.) might mean that they have to charge a lot to cover their costs; but as a consumer I might look at the cost, look at what someone else is charging for essentially the same materials, and say: “Okay, so you’re asking me to pay $X for the pen, and $Y to cover extraneous business costs. I’m sorry but what I’m getting for my money doesn’t justify it.” This reasoning is specifically why I’ll likely never own a non-secondhand Mont Blanc and why I almost immediately sold my pelikan m600 once I held it in hand.
@@gardyloogubbins For large companies with strong brand recognition, what you said can be true. People will instantly see fakes and copied designs instantly. That won't harm those companies. However, that's not the case for many small companies. For products from companies that don't have the brand recognition, buyers won't even know that the designs were copied. Later on, when they see the original, they'll think "why is it so expensive? I bought a similar/identical product a while ago for a fraction of the price". That's very hard for the original company to overcome. That's what I would want to avoid. Maybe we were thinking about different price ranges. In the 1000+ price range, there definitely is the factor of marketing hype. I'm all for the secondary market, it builds brand recognition and brand loyalty. If I'm understanding you correctly, you don't want to get suckered into something expensive just for hype. That's reasonable, but I wouldn't support buying them though, even if the original is unreasonable.
@@jerrytong6395 So, here’s where I’m having a bit of a disconnect with what you’re saying I guess: You say: “that would be difficult for the original company to overcome.” What companies are you thinking of? In my experience, the only brands I see being copied (big or small) are those that have already “made it,” and become established as a name in the industry. Take TWSBI for instance. Cheap Chinese copies of their pens abound on amazon and eBay. But are they losing business in a substantial enough amount to worry about the company going under? I doubt it. In fact, the only reason wing sung and others copy their design is because they are a popular brand that people want. Again, I doubt that TWSBI, a brand constantly hyped by all the fountain pen e-celebs (a weird and fascinating concept in and of itself) is all that concerned over the cheap knockoffs. Because, even if someone buys those, they’ll likely eventually get the real deal, because that’s what they were wanting in the first place. You seem concerned that someone will stumble across these knockoffs and never buy the real thing, because the knockoffs are cheaper. But really, how many people are stumbling into fountain pen purchases these days? These are, at their core, anachronistic eccentricities that relatively few of us are even aware of. Most anyone who is looking to buy a wing sung already knows about the TWSBI, and likely wants to buy it, but can’t yet justify spending $60 dollars on a pen. But like I said before, that $5 purchase, plus the constant viewing of “Top 5 Pen” lists, and gushing fountain pen reviews will likely eventually lead to the purchase of that $60 pen, then the $100 pen (because of course we’ve been convinced by our constant UA-cam searches that we have to experience the amazement that is a gold nib) then the $500 pen (because who doesn’t want a pen that made Brian Goulet’s top 5 pens to last a lifetime list? And this one is made out of lava!) And so on.
There are FAR more important reasons not to buy Communist Chinese products: - they use slave labor, which keeps costs low - they are exterminating the Uighar ethnic group, as well as using them as slaves . - the UN has concluded they routinely use political dissidents as organ donors - the CCP has murdered AT LEAST 55 million of their own citizens, possibly as many as 82 million, to maintain political control in China. - They have now crushed democracy in Hong Kong for good. - They have threatened to invade Taiwan as early as March 2021, and purge (ie. murder) all anticommunist elements there. - they have used Huawei, zoom and tiktok as espionage tools (check FBI reports on these) and Huawei CEO is awaiting extradition from Canada to the US on espionage charges. - Need I continue? But yeah, let's put our foot down on a pen that might be a partial copy of a pen that's probably a partial copy. Just saying.
To be honest David, there is so much you can do with a fountain pen. For example a semi transparent plastic pen by sailor asks for 200$ and a pen from another company with 95% similar looks asks for 20$ with same material shouldn't I go for 20$. Unless it's a handmade pen I would not dare to pay more than a 100$ at most.
Sailor is a small thief and winsung,jinhao are big thieves . And it is defined by differences of similarity and price. And it is a sin if big thief steals from small thief. So every thief would steal small and reckon price high.
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I am a big collector. Most of my pens are worth hundreds if not thousands. But, I think if the Moonman is a clone of stipula, then the Mont Blanc is a clone of Sailor. I just feel they're almost identical. I have both. I personally feel like some people might think different. I don't think price matters. I feel like most pens are either inspired of a knock off. I hate scammers and hate fakes. But, as long as someone is one stamping their logo and making pens exactly the identical, I am okay with it. I personally think if you wanto save $ and get something good, go with penbbs. Awesome pens, specially the new ones.
Yeah, but the design of the Montblanc is relatively generic. You could say that the Platinum President is a clone of both of them.
@@florencefortyseven I agree
I feel like some designs (like the Montblanc 146) are just too simple to say that any similar pen is a knockoff (barring straight up copying the design in full like with the snowflake finial and Montblanc branding). There's only so much you can change in terms of accents and the clip.
right on the spot
I mostly agree with this. There should be a clear and distinct difference between "classic designs" and "new/unique" designs.
I don't think there's many people out there accusing sailor as copying Mont blanc. It's a cigar pen with bands. There are a lot of people however, using this comparison to justify straight up copies of new unique pens. PenBBS, Moonman copies being "inspired" creations and that it should be acceptable, since we don't criticize sailor. Renditions of classic designs should be acceptable, but "inspirations" from new unique designs should be seen as absolutely despicable.
”Bird splat” in my humble perspective. I have second hand experience from a Mont Blanc 146, including terrible customer care. So I bought a tru copy of the pen to see if I would like the shape and the weight. I turned out hesitant. So: no Mont Blanc 146 for me. On the other hand I bought a Kaigelu 456, heavily inspired by the parker Sonnet. I really liked the design and weight, but the build quality was unsatisfying. Now the Parker Sonnet is on my wish list!
@@Johan-vk5yd My problem with the "trial pen" idea is that maybe you'll end up buying the real pen if you like the clone, but lots of other people probably won't. When the clone is released into the market, the exclusivity for the unique design is gone. Not in Montblanc's case, but in many other cases, this is a unique design that someone out there worked on, invested in and cared about, now to be ripped off by some stranger who wants to turn a quick buck.
Montblanc might not be a small pen company, but that shouldn't change the way we treat their IP. If you said that their pens aren't innovative, I'd agree. But if we disregard their rights to their design, why should the IP value of any design by any company be respected? That normalizes the concept of stealing ideas and designs as being ok.
This greatly decreases the value and desirability of the "cool, innovative" designs, since people think that they can get "the exact same thing" at a much lower price. If that becomes the norm, why would any company invest in creating cool new things?
@@jerrytong6395 What I regret the most, is that I bought items of low quality, that in themselves don’t bring me joy. I haven’t bought any new pens since the summer of 2019. I’ll take really good care of the quality pens I already own instead.
It's hard for me to see how the Moonman is more similar to the stipula than the Sailor to the MontBlanc. Sometimes I think the level of originality people demand of Chinese companies is a lot higher than more "established" brands. Also you could argue that the Sailor actually competes with the Mont Blanc, so it hurts the sales. Nobody has a debate between buying the moonman vs. the stipula. So the "damage" done by the sailor "copy" is far greater than the moonman.
I actually thought the exact same thing. IMHO I think the only reason it is “okay” is because of its price and quality. Spending $200 on a montblanc clone of good quality seems to be okay but spending $40 on a montblanc clone is a nono.
I honestly think clones are fine as long as you know that you’re buying a clone. I would buy the moonman over the stipula; the stipula is extremely overpriced for a steel nib... Moonman’s quality is good enough that I think I would be happy with the purchase. This is just an example of the buyer making a conscious choice between two products-even if one is a clone.
i think Sailor is forgiven somewhat because the companies started at around the same time, and developed along side each other. they both acquired patents related to fountain pens and they probably licensed each other’s patents too.
The original Montblanc nor the Meisterstuck was NOT rounded on both ends and NOT streamlined, but Meisterstuck did have a band. Who had streamlined cigar pens first? I don’t know. Who had the bands? I don’t know. I don’t think it was all done by Montblanc.
However, they could have been the first to have the current iconic streamlined + banded pen.
Pens are not covered by copyright!.
Hi David, this is a great video about a thorny issue. I understand your position, and I don't think my argument tries to invalidate it, but just want to add some considerations, so bear with me.
First, pens as inventions or designs are not covered by copyright, the documents describing its design and the schematics are protected, but not the things themselves. It says so right in Circular 33 "Works Not Protected by Copyright" of the U. S. Copyright Office (Under "Inventions")
The most common form of IP protection for devices such as pens is by trademarks, so that nobody can use the names or logos of Lamy, Montblanc, etc. without the owner's permission. As such, the pens sporting the snowflake logo are blatantly infringing on Montblanc's rights. Trademarks can last indefinitely provided that they are enforced by the owner. But a pen that looks otherwise identical to a (say) Stipula does not infringe on their rights unless it uses their name or logo.
A second option for IP protection is a 'design patent' of the whole pen or a 'normal' patent of some of its components. The problem with patents is that, unlike copyright, that for practical purposes last indefinitely, they don't last long (at most 20 years, depends on the country). This leads to cases such as the Lamy Safari, whose design patent was granted by U. S. Patent no 264,854 on 1981. That means the patent has expired and **anyone** can make that exact pen without paying Lamy any rights... this is ok, this is the way the system is supposed to work. Again, provided that said anyone doesn't include a trademarked logo or name with the pen.
So to me, the situation is as you clearly said, not black and white. I understand why some people dislike seeing copies of a design, but please understand that not all cases are clearly wrong (either legally or morally). Me, I don't mind the pens with similar design, unless they are actively trying to pass as something they're not. So the Jinhao is ok (doubly so for re-using an expired patent), a pen from an unknown manufacturer with a Montblanc snowflake is clearly **not ok**. Any other case in-between, I have no problem with them.
Best reply on this comment section. Exactly how I feel about, but more eloquently stated than I could manage.
Well said. I agree wholeheartedly. i can't see how David is differentiating between Infringe, copy, and inspired by. Seems pretty random to me.. Sorry
Despite your legal defense, I totally disagree with you. The companies that make exact copies without divulging it openly are doing so in an effort to deceive. Thereby, capitalizing on the image of the original. All in an effort to "make a buck" without the investment. Customers who knowingly buy their products are also trying to pretend. Fake designer clothes and jewelry is similar. I agree with David's position.
@@bigstroke2069 what would you consider “divulging it?” Aside from the MontBlanc counterfeit, the other pens he discussed each go under their own distinct brand name and product ID.
I agree. Take the Keurig coffee machines. Once the patent ran out a lot of machines that were essentially indistinct from the original came into the market. Is it wrong to buy one of those simply because Keurig was the first to come up with the design?
Personally I think another category is worth mentioning: counterfeit. You've got knockoffs which which go about looking like something well established but you still know that it is it's own item. Such as the Jinhao and Lamy. The Jinhao looks like the Lamy but branding on it still says Jinhao. Counterfeit is where a brand will go to great lengths to produce something to fool you into thinking it is the real thing. That fake Montblanc would fit into counterfeit. It's not a real MB but you wouldn't know unless you knew what to look for.
As an artist, this is how I see it: the question of whether you mind buying a knockoff is like asking if you mind buying stolen merchandise. If you enjoy a design, you should buy it from the designer. Otherwise, the designer cannot get paid properly for their idea. Then they aren’t rewarded for their work, and sometimes they can’t afford to make more great designs. When you buy a knockoff you are being self-centered by only considering how the purchase effects you and not how it effects the designer. Designers are people and they deserve respect, especially if you enjoy what they create.
I am going to be very clear or try to be. I completely agree with you. Now that out of the way. This means you are against the secondary market as well because someone is buying an original but not supporting the artist. I like the secondary market because if gives the budget conscious a way to buy an original and someone who will not be using the product it a way to get rid of the item without destroying or putting the item in a landfill. So while I completely agree on purchasing an original to support the artist I also want a good secondary marker.
Modern Scholar Buying an original design on the secondary market still supports the designer by making their product more enticing for others to buy new because it gives the product resell value. Buying knockoffs does not have much to do with the secondary market. Most knockoffs are not resold on the secondary market. They tend to break more easily and end up in a landfill instead of being resold, handed down or used by the next generation. So, even considering the secondary market, I think my point still stands: avoid knockoffs if you value well-made products and the people that make them.
@@fountainpeninsanity3344 Good point about avoiding low quality stuff!
I am thinking about the realities about who has the means to be able to design and promote a product... just because we see it sold by a particular designer doesn’t necessarily mean they were the first to create it... there are tons of inventions that were stolen from poor people and people and people of color and people with less connections and means to get their products patented and sold in their own names... definitely a lot to think about.
Shareese Castillo As far as I can tell you are agreeing with me that people should not buy a pen if they know that it is a knockoff because the money doesn’t go to the person who designed the pen. The extra point that you raise seems to be that if we don’t see the product that is being copied, we don’t know if what we are buying is a knockoff. This is true, but I’m not sure what your solution to this problem would be. I think doing an online search to see if the product is a knockoff before you buy it is sufficient. Is there something more that you would do?
I think it’s hard to say who started the cigar shape at this point. the original Simplo Montblanc or Meisterstuck from 1924 and 1929 are NOT round on both ends, but 1929 DOES have a band ONLY on the cap.
On the other hand, the Dunhill-Namiki from 1930 and Namiki No50 Jumbo from early 1930s are more like the current MB in that both ends are round, but not exactly (its not stream lined, ie more like Custom 74). Also Dunhill -Namiki doesn’t have the bands (it has the makie drawings).
I couldn’t find exactly when Montblanc had its first streamline and banded pens. there were many other companies already like Waterman, Sheaffer, Parker, Onoto, Pilot, Sailor, etc. so the shape probably rose among those companies, and the band I don’t know.
Not many people from back then are alive now so someone will have to dig through lots of papers to tell exactly…
If you take a look at the vintage pens from Germany from the 1950/1960s you'll find a lot of pens that look very similar to the classic MB or Pelikan pens which were designed at that time (for example compare the Kaweco Elite 585G to a Pelikan 400NN). There was never any legal attempt to remove such pens from the market as manufacturers like MB would have had a hard time showing that their design was the original one (it wasn't). Now that some chinese manufacturers enter the market, all hell breaks loose. And it's only the chinese companies that are being blamed. Other companies are excused by making "inspired" pens. Since companies like Jinhao and WingSung proudly brand their pens correctly and (contrary to David's claim) nothing illegal happens here (no copyright infringement, no patent violation) I have absolutely no problem buying such pens. PenBBS is a different case as (apart from their early designs) every pen is an original design and although some models like the 480/308 start with a classic design they add enough original detail to create something new out of that 80+ year old generic form.
What I absolutely reject are fakes which pretend to be something else. Those are real rip-offs as the customer is promised something he won't get.
I bought a WingSun 699 and I like it although not that much that I would spend money for a Custom 823 as it is too heavy for my liking (both pens have the same weight). I also bought a Moonman M800 and I liked the pen so much that I bought a Leonardo Momento Zero without hesitation because I think the Positano Blue finish tops every of the Moonman finishes (and the Bock nibs are better than the Moonman nibs).
I also don't think that those cheaper pens will put a dent into the sales of the luxury brands. If you want a Montblanc 146 you'll buy one regardless of cheaper alternatives as you want that snowy mountaintop finial to show off. People who just want the expensive item may fall more easily for a fake pen than for some similar original pen from a different manufacturer as the fake one has the MB logo.
I remember someone asking how to repair the gold plating on his Rolex and someone else replied "you mean your fake Rolex. Real Rolex watches are made from solid 18k gold..."
I totally agree. People get upset because they feel slighted when someone can appear to have the same taste and or wealth for a fraction of the price. It infringes on egos more than copyrights. Let rich people buy their rich people shit, and don't pretend to be rich if you're not. Haha. If everyone knows what they're getting, it's all good.
Thanks for this video. I really appreciate the fact that that you're bringing this issue to the attention of your audience. I do hope more reviewers will follow suite.
"If you have a business model dependent upon stealing from others, that's not something I feel good about supporting" -- well said, David, and I agree 100%
Between Stipula-Moon Man and Sailor-Montblanc duo, it seemed you used a price point to call one pair "clone", and the other pair "inspired". That would suggest if the Moon Man were to be more expensive, then it would/could be categorized as "inspired".
Good point.
Thank you, David, for doing this video. I agree with you completely. There are some terrific pens out there that have their own design and are just as inexpensive as the "clones". I would rather support these types of copies than the ones who produce the "knock-offs". And, in my opinion, few of those "knock-offs" write well and most fall apart within a short period of time. I would love to see you do a video on "pieced" pens - where a company finds and purchases inferior pen parts of an exclusive brand and puts them together, selling them as new. eBay has many of these out there.
The Sailor is trying a lot harder to look like the MB than the Jinhao is to the Lamy.
so, what now? just got to the sailor/mont blanc comparison... the first two, the stipula and moonman had almost the exact same differences you spelled out with the sailor and mont blanc.... seems to come down to branding and a "trusted" brand like Sailor vs Chinese brands with their "dubious" copyright issues...
I completely agree; seems people are just happy to have found an excuse to project their xenophobia and associated Western superiority complex
Absolutely agree with you. See might comment on the issue below.
I completely agree with you. I would never buy a copy of any pen. If I cannot afford the real thing then I would just pass it up.
I agree with you. And if I cannot afford the real thing, I can just be patient and save up for it in the meantime and savor the journey towards that dream pen acquisition. One of the biggest reasons why manufacturers/companies that copy other designs exist is because of so many people that do not care at all and just buy their products because they are cheap pricewise..
What's "the real thing"??? If you want a Stipula, buy a Stipula. If you want a Moonman, buy a Moonman. Contrary to the assertions made, they are different pens and neither Stipula nor Moonman claim they are the same or challenge the other's right to make the pen. That's just David's issue. One difference is that the Stipula pens have a terrible QA rep while Moonman has a good QA rep at a fraction of the cost.
I sadly have some China-pens... but I do not show them to others. - A fountain pen is a luxury, something that also should make you feel invested in writing... but using a china-pen just make me a shame or even a fraudster.
Interesting video, although I disagree with your conclusions. To my eye, the two pens that look most similar and would most likely be confused with a casual glance are the Sailor and the Montblanc. They are to me, using your terminology, ‘clones’.
The Mont Blanc summit logo is the only missing thing (because it is actually a logo and therefore protected) but casual observers (non-FP geeks) would look at that Sailor on a desk and ask if it was a Montblanc, especially if they didn’t see or know the significance of the summit trademark.
Otherwise, the pens are almost identical, allowing for a slightly larger end cap in the Montblanc to house the different internal mechanism.
“Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.” So, it seems, do clones like Sailor’s.
I wouldn't really call the sailor a knockoff. Cigar shaped pens are so common, it just happens that Montblanc is the most famous for people not as familiar with fountain pens.
I appreciate your effort and opinion; however, I don't understand how the Moonman can be considered a Stipula clone (especially considering the different filling mechanism)...definitely inspired by and maybe even a knockoff...but IMO I don't think it qualifies as a clone. Actually, the Jinhao seemed more of a Lamy clone. Quite honestly...the Sailor also seemed closer to qualifying as a clone.
I don't think the point is whether you can tell the difference between the original design and the knockoff. If they are similar enough, knockoff pens take away money that should be going to the designer.
@@fountainpeninsanity3344 True...that is the “bigger point” by far. However, he did seem to be making a distinction between “clone”, “knockoff”, and “inspired by”.
@@fountainpeninsanity3344 no they don't
@@bradyreid9270 nobody is going to buy a moonman, when they want a stipula. Such inspired by clones or copy pens do not take money away from anybody else.
@@shadowmihaiu agreed. Pens, much like watches, cars, clothes, etc have a practical function that is no longer a consideration past a certain price point. Then it's just a status symbol. I understand what figfoot is conveying, but now all these ppl are coming out of the woodwork saying it's about a moral stance, when it's about virtue signaling and flaunting.
If you have stipula, dialog 3, mont blanc, homosapiens pen collection money then you're not gonna bother with ebay or ali express to find pens, and you're not gonna bother with a $20 chinese pen
What the Sailor 1911 has that the MB 149 doesn't is color! Gorgeous colors! Also, I love how Sailor nibs sort of "schwootsch" on the paper. I also have a Wing Sung 699. I bought it to take drawing b/c of the huge ink capactiy and the likelihood of losing it. I also buy real Pilot pens. I have two Falcons. It just depends what I want a pen for. I'm not likely to take my metal Falcon on a hike.
The Sailor 1911 isn't being sold in Germany. It seems that Montblanc was behind this (I don't know if they sued them, there isn't much documented Info around) and some Pilot pens are in the same boat. Asking the retailers all confirm, that they cannot sell Sailor 1911 but usually don't have or don't feel comfortable sharing more detailed information.
@D Fire P No, I encountered the same. Retailers say that certain Sailor/Pilot models, but especially the Sailor 1911 can't be sold (and other models only in colours not resembling the colours Montblanc uses, like the classic black) because they infringe on design rights (Markenrecht), like with Lego for example. The patent on Lego bricks is long gone but the minifigure is an iconic design to which Lego holds the rights so other manufacturers can only sell sets with bricks or with significantly different looking minifigures in them. The same goes for pens.
@D Fire P Maybe, as far as I know is that's what a retailer told. Maybe the retailers you found only offer the 1911 in colours Montblanc doesn't use on their pens? I heard that especially the black 1911 is a problem and that Montblanc doesn't like the others being sold but that their influence here is reserved to using their position on retailers (and not the Markenrecht) but some retailers might be too valuable. But if that last thing is the case is really speculation.
Don't agree on the conclusions of the Sailor/Montblanc comparison. I do firmly believe Chinese pen makers "excel" at cloning/doing knock offs, but it doesn't mean that if a non-Chinese pen maker makes a knock off we shouldn't call them out...
It is not stealing, there is no copyright infringement, as there is no copyright for consumer objects, and if there was a design patent it would be expired by now anyway. Only protection the Pilot Custom 823 has is trademark, and the Wing Sung 699 does not violate that as they do not label it Pilot, or 823, or any of that. You might not like such copying, but it is per se not illegal, and violates no laws here in US, let alone in China. So using loaded language like stealing, or copyright infringement, and the like is not only technically incorrect, but also potentionally slander. (This is tricky as there some exceptions for opinions, etc., but without saying that in your opinion it is stealing it is in gray area. Is this sufficiently a review where opinion is implied, so it would be safe harbored, or an slanderous attack on Wing Sung's reputation that is actionable? Legal opinions would vary.)
It isn't POTENTIALLY slander, it actually is slander, and that's clearly David's purpose in using that verbiage directed at specific manufacturers.
@@shadowmihaiu If you say someone is a bastard, but they are in fact legitimately born, then that is slander, or libel if you write/print it. If you say that in your opinion they are a bastard, then that is not slander, because as the courts say everyone has an opinion. So opinions are exempt from the slander/libel laws. Front page of newspaper a statement that is a lie is libel, but in an opinion column it is not a problem. Reviews are generally held to be opinions, so it would likely skate on that technicality in a review. But this video is not a review, but aims to educate the consumer, so perhaps it could be seen as presentation of fact, and so a slander. However, it is on a channel that generally does reviews, so it could be seen as a review because of that. So even though it is clearly an attack, it is only potentially slanderous, and not as clear cut as the intent would make it seem. Ergo, a court would have to decide whether it skates on that opinion exception. Hope that helps.
"Sailor isn't a copy of the MontBlanc because it's also expensive." You can't be serious. Is price the main metric here?
"Chinese clone bad, Japanese clone good because $$."
I lost respect for Figboot with that view. .... He says no one would mistake the pens. .. Well I would. 1 or 2 thin lines is the only thing except from the logo... well, I have a Mont Blanc pen, but I did not remember the logo on the end of the cap.
Come on Figboot .... you can be better than this.
Also the Lamy vs Jinhau are to semilar in looks,,, but not the feeling when holding.
For me the 3 categories should be: influenced or inspired by on one end; fake on the other end (to me this means someone is trying to fool the buyers); and in between all the variations of knock-offs and virtual clones as long as they are not actually pretending to be the more expensive product. I base this on the lack of actual invention (as opposed to design) that is represented in the original pens you showed. There are no new individual components in fountain pens today, they are just arranged or combined in different ways, with different materials on the outside.
What matters, and what I hope I'm paying for when I buy an "original" pen, is quality of construction, and a company that stands behind its products. I'm not interested in buying cheap imitations (i.e. the ones in the middle category), if for no other reason than that I prefer, and can usually afford the originals (up to a point -- and I bargain hunt like made at the higher end). The people who buy the imitations are, I think, not people who would be buying the expensive originals, and why shouldn't they have that opportunity?
Actual attempted fakes are just dishonest (and they are not limited to new pens, some guy in Korea is making and selling pens marketed as vintage Mandarin Yellow Parker Duofolds). I think copying, though, is fair game, as long as no-one is trying to fool the buyer.
@RoderickFemm Well said.
I was going to suggest different categories as well, but you have expressed almost exactly what I was going to suggest, but more articulately than I could have. To me it’s about honesty. And I would back up that I think that many of the examples raised in this video as “inspired by “ seem to me to be very close to clones, just made by more upmarket companies.
Ripoff is an interesting word. These are after all, just pens, sometimes costing hundreds of dollars. If a pen "A" can give you 95% of experience of pen "B" for 10% of the price.. Then which one is really the "rip off"??
That’s fair - but that last 5% can be fairly nebulous and highly subjective. If you were blindfolded, you could probably tell a hand-tuned genuine gold nib from a dime-a-dozen gold color/plated steel nib. Meanwhile, other factors - like the difference between an ebonite/ urushi/ celluloid/ etc. body and a cheap plastic one - probably wouldn’t seem so vast until you took the blindfold off... And even then, does that specific high-cost, sought-after material happen to catch your eye enough to justify the steep price difference?
And how much money do you have *going into* the purchase? Is the pen going to set you back a desperate month’s wages? Or is it a drop in the bucket compared to the Scrooge McDuck-esque vault/ swimming pool of gold & coins & treasure that you won in the ‘Stork Lottery’ and were thus born into?
Just my two cents. I'm no expert on this but I feel judging the price of a pen with the 'experience' you get to be too narrow of a criteria.
What 'experience' one gets from a fountain pen is subjective; some will buy an expensive thousand dollar fountain pen - for whatever reason- while some will stick with a Pilot Metropolitan. Would Pen A get 95% of the experience of Pen B if one morally disagree with design choices? Even if you don't? Also, the pricing of a fountain pen involves more than just the 'experience'. Who pays for making and designing the fountain pens and getting them to retailers? Who pays for the warranty? Who pays for QA? These amenities are in the price of the pen and often times lacking in 'cheap' fountains pens.
So you're entitled to other people work and designs? Since when did the designers owe indentured servitude to you? Just because a crook is offering you stolen merchandise for 5% the price tag doesn't mean that the store who was selling it for 100% the price tag was "ripping you off". Buying the stolen merchandise means you're complicit with the theft.
@@jerrytong6395 This is what happens when you react emotionally to a rational problem... Absolutely none of what you just wrote is accurate/correct/based in reality. First off, I don't think you know what indentured servitude is, I cannot think of a single way I could draw a parallel between the two without a tremendous reach. Further to that, comparing slavery to an open market might just be in poor/uneducated taste. You may want to go look that up first before using it in an argument again.
No one owes me anything.. I'm not talking about stolen pilot 823s being sold out of the back of a truck somewhere. "Stealing" a design or idea is some pretty grey area. Assume we are not talking about knockoffs, where a company fakes a product as the genuine article. If someone can and does make a comparable or competing product at a reduced price, am I not allowed or entitled to explore that option? Ever drank a can of Pepsi? a company that was literally built on copying the success and taste of Coca-cola as closely as possible to sell a comparable product. Both are brown fizzy drinks, one is literally a copy of the other.. no? Maybe because they are roughly the same price? How about your generic Walmart branded Cola? Same basic product at a lower price.. Is every can of Walmart Cola stealing from the Coca-Cola company?That's ok right? But not this.. Not pens.. There is exactly ZERO percent chance you have gone through life buying entirely original products whos idea or design language was entirely created by whoever you bought the product from.
It's up to the consumer, me and you, to decide on the value of a product. But If I walk into a shop and buy a $10 cotton white polo shirt, and you go into the store next door and buy a white cotton polo shirt that looks the same, feels the same, is made of the same material but costs $50 because it has a little logo on the tag.. A "reasonable" case can be made that someone got "ripped off" and YOU(the general public) do this every single day... I'm not sure why you are going to draw the line at pens...
@@uhohDavinci I'm not comparing slavery to the open market, I'm comparing slavery with you believing that you are entitled to someone else's time. When you offer that person nothing in return, for the work that they have done, I don't think it's too far of a stretch to compare that to slavery. When you take take advantage of their design by supporting imitators, you are complicit in the theft of the original designer's IP.
Are you seriously trying to argue that stealing unique designs and ideas is a "grey" area? It's not. We have copyright laws and patent courts for a reason. Just because people aren't always able to enforce these laws, or that overseas companies don't respect these laws, doesn't mean that they're a "grey area". It doesn't have to say "Stipula" on it to make it an infringement. It's the design, shape, colors, unique identifiers that constitute the IP. Letting people profit from and protect their own creations is well established.
You're confusing industries with individual products. Today, fizzy drinks is an industry with a market value of almost 500 billion dollars. Having competition drives innovation. Did Pepsi imitate coke at the beginning and piggy back off of Coke's brand? That is the case however, for imitation pens. A stipula model by itself is not an industry, it's a single unique "art" piece in a larger industry. The imitations hurt the sales of the stipula directly. The perceived worth of the Stipula is decreased because "the cheap one does the same thing". At the end of the day, it's about driving innovation. Does something result in more innovation? Imitation pens deters companies from investing in designing unique, innovative new pens.
Another example is Baoer #79, which is a clear copy of the original MB Starwalker.
However, to make it as cheap as possible, they've simplified several of its features and haven't even remotely tried to pretend they were selling an MB at ~1% of the original's price. While I don't like the idea of stealing designs, there's no way in hell I'd ever give MB hundreds of dollars for their ballpoint and rollerballs, but I like the Starwalker design, and I wanted to have all three writing modes without wasting another $1k on the real ones. So I just bought a couple of original MB refills and put them into the Baoer #79 and guess what, now I have a set of Starwalkers in all three writing modes that write precisely as MB designed them to, and I saved a grand, which would have made precisely no difference to the writing experience. At least this way, I have a way of quickly telling the FP apart from the RB. Not my proudest decision, but I stand by it.
As a side note, Baoer pens are fairly high-quality for their price. Usually, you'd pay a lot more for a far worse close that quickly falls apart, but most Baoers (I have many more than just the #79 because they're super cheap and very nice BP/RBs) seem pretty solid, especially when compared to the vast majority of super-cheap Chinese eBay pens.
Maybe it’s because I’m a newbie but I would mistake that Sailor for a Montblanc (or visa versa), seems more of a knockoff than “inspired by”. But as someone mentioned earlier, some designs are just too simple to avoid copying
Very great comparison breakdown. When I first got into the hobby, I definitely purchase clones of some of the pens I longed to have. I learned what designs worked for my writing style and which didn't and I was able to decide which direction I wanted to go in the hobby. I now own the real versions of many of those pens and I am torn in this area. I feel that if a company is making a true counterfeit pen, like the rip off MB, where the branding is the same, that is wrong in every way. On the other designs where they took design cues but made something new, like a new filling mechanism like the Moonman, it isn't as bad. There are only so many shapes and designs for pens before you start crossing those inspired/clone lines.
as long as they're not trying to sell the knockoffs as the original, or as a 1:1 alternative, I don't think it's as huge a problem as the original company might.
Knockoffs that claim to be one thing, but aren't (14k gold, when it's gold plated (some other) metal, etc) are not acceptable. I can't abide false advertising.
4:48 if you're not paying any attention AT ALL, you might mistake these, but they only JUST barely resemble each other. they don't even resemble each other "to a T", to an F, maybe. I wouldn't even call this a clone, maybe an inspired design, at most.
6:18 Certainly much closer, and if Jinhao weren't emblazoned on the side, someone would absolutely mistake it for a Lamy. those clips are far more than "slightly" different.
8:26 & 11:08 & 12:30 those could absolutely be mistaken for each other, if you don't know the difference.
o0 I'm not sure you know how the words "exactly" or "slightly" work…
Ok, it is a tough call. But, I do chuckle when you compared the Sailor and MB you give this the benefit of the doubt and say inspired. Looking at both on the desk I would assume they were the same manufacturer. Let’s face it. Pens and Watches have been around for a relatively long time and with new technology it is hard to come up with new Ideas that people will buy.
I never understood why anyone had issue with stuff like this. This is an issue of patents, which do not last especially long in the grand scheme of things, not copyright, which lasts for quite some time. I'm sure that a lot of these have patents that expired long ago.
Additionally, these are not pens being sold as other brand. The Jinhao, moonman, etc branding on their 'knockoff' is quite prominent and does not claim to be anything other than what it is. It is not even in the same price range; they are very obviously cheaper pens. I don't understand why so many want to do a large company's work for them, for free. If Pilot or Montblanc or whomever thinks that their patents are being infringed upon they can and will act upon that. They can have shipments into the US stopped, something that customs does regularly. Hell, just about a month ago customs nabbed a large shipment headphones they thought infringed on an Apple patent.
Patents (and copyright, for that matter) should not last forever. At some point an idea must become part of the public domain and when that happens it should be free to use.
Absolutely.
That's an interesting subject. I have seen it discussed within many communities -- watches, guitars, guitar effects, knives, you name it. Many people don't bother buying a clone; and their reasoning to do so is not necessarily the difference in price. Some people perceive the marketing strategies of Montblanc or Rolex to be aggressive and arrogant, and the price asked for their products to be ridiculously inflated by how effectively those companies are able to manipulate the gullibility of status seekers. Therefore, the real question is: could one purchase a certain fountain pen solely based on the objective VALUE of that object as a writing instrument? Even though I have collected a number of very expensive fountain pens (many italian ones have interesting self-destroying abilities), my most cherised one still is a Senator, from a calligraphy set, that I purchased about 40 years ago. It has never failed, it is a piston filler, its wetness is perfect with any good ink, its platted parts have never lost their color or shine, and the plastic resin of which it is made is of a higher quality as my MB 149. Pls. Note: when speaking about Pilot, Sailor or Platinum pens, one should not forget that the Chinese products are the new Japanese immitations of the past.
for me, if the Moonman T2 is a copy of Stipula, than the Sailor 1911 is also a clone of Montblanc, not inspired, just different extent in compaire to the Lamy/Jinhao. But well everyone to their own. Thanks for the Video.
Trouble is people are OK with Sailor and not with the Moonman, when the T2 is more divergent from the Stipula then the Sailor is from the Montblanc. So thus the discussion will go on for a while.
Visconti has also "ripped off" the Stipula. But certain people here would say it was an "innovation" if you can get them to even notice it - after all Moonman is a Chinese company so they don't innovate, they rip off.
David--As much as I look forward to hearing you present pens, I appreciate that you occasionally share important topics in the pen world. Your approach to this issue makes it thought provoking without being a diatribe. I imagine most of your viewers will find themselves more aware of this issue and more aware of their own decisions.
I would call the jinhao a (bad) clone, as it has nothing of significance different compared to the Lamy, but I would not call the moonman a clone: the filling mechanism is a pretty important part of a pen, so I would put it in the middle category.
Speaking of clones, I have the same plaid shirt. Buttons are even the same color.
LL Bean...lol
I guess mine's the clone, the tag is missing. 😅
Interesting topic. I have purchased a real Leonardo Momento Zero and soon after saw that there was an exact clone from moon man I think . The Momento was $170 and the copy is $46.. hard to resist, but I did not purchase the copy.. and I bought my wife a Furore original for $200. I am an artist and am very aware of people copying art.. thanks for this video.
Would love to know your opinion on the Pilot Custom 912 vs the Sailor Pro Gear. They look extremely similar to me.
If a design has been in the public space for long enough, other companies should be able to make products very similar to it and I don't see a problem with supporting companies that do specifically that. This is true in the case of the MontBlanc vs Sailor, although the lines are blurred in the case of the Lamy vs Jinhao as the Lamy Safari hasn't been on the market for as long as the MontBlanc. This is probably not the case with the Moonman vs Stipula since the Stipula design hasn't been on the market for as long.
Interesting and a thought provoking video, I think that I fall into the grey area on this, I don't mind pens that are clones of pens which are out of production, say Jinhao's clone of the Parker 51, I've also seen a good number of knock offs of the Parker Duofold, but I would draw the line at pens which are currently being manufactured by the original company. However that being said, I'm fortunate in that I am financially in a situation where price doesn't play a major role in my purchase decisions, casting my mind back to being a penniless student living on lentils.. well I probably would have felt differently then.
I bet if you did this poll today, you'd get different results. Chinese manufacturers really have come a long way in a couple of years
Great video on an important topic. Thanks!
Well done David. Thank you for another great video.
I didn't feel the same criteria were applied to each pen combo. Other factors were sometimes included eg. whether the pen was also expensive We know that the materials are often the same eg. precious resin vs. acrylic. I think a more interesting evaluation would've been a "blind" test asking folks who don't know the brands to establish which is a knock off vs. inspired by., etc. Maybe even to guess which is the inspiration...
I don't think having such a blind test would establish anything. Whatever the average Joe says about, say, the Pilot Custom 823 and it's knock-off doesn't change the underlying facts. That ripoff clone has pretty much the same design and it even has the same colour offerings! They can even be bothered to come up with some other colours!
@@blargvlarg1390 wondering if you say this about all the pencil manufacturers that make yellow hexagonal pencils with a round pink erasers at one end and a silver metal collar.
@@tsherbs1309 Yes, if it can be established that there is a blatant attempt to imitate something wholesale.
I don't have a problem with products being similar but I find it morally distasteful when fountain pens start 'accidentally' having pretty much the same design, colour offerings, and/or unique features.
@@blargvlarg1390 what's immoral about immitation? It's done throughout the art and manufacturing and cultural world. Humans are immitative animals. We thrive on it. We find out what works and what sells, and then we compete to outdo each other with the same idea. Fakes are a form of fraud, but what is morally wrong with making a green pen that looks very similar to a green Parker 51? Really, what is the "moral" here? Thou shalt be original? Like, once one company makes a round, brown, salted potato chip, no one else can?
@@tsherbs1309 Like I said, I have no problem with mere imitation/similarity. I don't have a problem with things looking similar or taking 'inspiration' from something else.
My issue stems from what I assume unfair (which you could disagree with). Take the Wing Sung 699, the 823 knockoff mentioned for example. The 699 is essentially the $30 823. When people talk about the 699, the 823 is almost always mentioned. It's almost as if the 699 is dependent on the 823 to sell. Pilot spends much money and does the actual R&R, marketing, etc. for the 823 while Wing Sung rides on the coattails by essentially copying the 823. Is this mere imitation? Is the 699 just a 'green pen that looks very similar to a green Parker 51'?
You could disagree on what I find unfair. Maybe not. I don't have a problem with companies taking inspirations from another. Nobody should own the basic cigar shape. Nobody should own a particular colour or combination. But when one start skirting the 'fake' line, when do you say no?
Idk man, the Sailor seems like a knock off Montblanc to me, but then again that design is almost too simple to knock off
Yup. Classic designs can't really cry about knock offs.
For the twsbi you could easily have added the pilot 92 or pelikan models. Who gets to monopolize a clear piston filler market. Do we ask these questions if the pens were ball points or pencils at the local store? Walmart has store brands that are clearly trying to take sales from zebra and pilot. Ulitimately differences in quality are present at all levels, however basic functionality is the same. For the 699 if I dont lear that I like / dislike vac fillers I would never consider putting out close to $300 for the 823.
So David, is it still a copy/clone if the clone wipes the floor with the original in regards to performance? I found that to be true with the 823 I owned and the 699 I still have.
I have both, and the 823 trounces the 699. What did you do to mess up the pilot. The 699 rattles when shaken and the nib is passable, not even as good as some of the Wing Sung 698s that I have.
@@papadage Quite possibly that was part of the problem, I did nothing to the 823. I tuned four 699s, put different inks in each one and left them for a year. I have 250 pens in my collection ranging from MBs, Pelikans and Viscontis down to about eight Chinese pens and I didn't miss using the 699s. I tried the 699s after a year and every one of them wrote flawlessly, and I do mean no hard starts, skipping or any other problems. And they don't rattle. I am not a big fan of Chinese pens, but I can't argue with success. Cheers
I really want to own a nice pen that works well. I am on a very limited budget and I would own an original if I could afford it. Please don't think bad of me.
there are great pens in all budget category which are not a knock off.
You are right! I have a fairly extensive collection (really just starting out) and the most expensive pen I own is $40. I shop value and high review and hope for the best and so far have not been disappointed.
See now, the Sailor and the Montbanc look just enough alike that if it were a Microsoft product, Microsoft would probably charge you a royalty for using it. At least the Lamy knock off copied a cheap pen, and
Pens would be a hard thing to keep original, and everyone would just be inspired by the original fountain pen though.
In Germany there is exactly this problem. It's really hard to find a retailer who has the Sailor 1911 or the Platinum 3776 in simple colors like black, because they do not want to get in trouble with Montblanc because of the similarities of the pens. The 3776 for example you can only get in the special edition with the unique colours, but not the cheap versions of it, if you don't want to import them by your own.
As far as I know Montblanc actually sued Sailor, but did not win. I am not sure that the Montblanc design is older than the Japanese one (some Say the Meisterstück dates back to 1924, but others will nuance that the Meisterstück 149 with its present shape is rather from the 1950's. Then the Sailor Profit 1911 dates back to the 1980's, but Sailor might have been producing similar cigar shaped fountain pens in the 1930's. In any case, Sailor pens sport fantastic nibs, way better than Montblancs counterparts, unless you go up to the big 149 (I mean the nib of a 144 or Chopin provides a boring experience, rather similar to a steel JoWo nib, whereas Sailor 14k and 21k nibs are very "expressive" with a tad of line variation, and are also extremely precise. Some do not like their feedback, but many of us think their are close to perfection). Now, if You do not want to keep on giving such explanations (I have been through that myself) and in order to avoid people thinking you got a knock-off, the best thing to do is to go with the Pro Gear line of Sailor. Same quality of nibs, but a slight different look, they being a tappered cigar shape with square ends.
Stipula is well known for bringing in chinese mfg pens and charging hundreds of dollars for them. I currently boycot all Yafa managed brands.
Thanks figboot your reviews and videos are great
One other item to consider is the likelyhood that the pens you criticize may actually be the original manufacturer or supplier for the components. Is it a coincidence that many Chinese brands use Lamy or Pilot styled nibs? The monteverde monza was clearly a jinhao 992 first. There are probably hundreds of pens over time that are the same shape as a Parker Duofold - no critique of them? Kaigalu 316, Moonman M600, Conklin Duragraph, Pilot Ch91, sailor pro gear. Etc. Etc. Etc. Virtually any pen with a flat ends or cigar shape can be considered an immitation of something else.
I have the transparent♧
wing sung 699~
piston filler version
Fight me🎃
Or the piston filler which was a copy of the Parker pen (I don't remember the model). They do interesting stuff sometimes.
Thank you for this review. My position is to never buy cheap copies of pens that took years to develop. Your video also convinced me of unsubscribing from channels that occasionally praise these copies. I value honesty, and I agree it’s unethical to buy these products even for reviewing purposes. Keep up your great work!
You would be referring to trademark law and patent law with respect to the design of a device. Copyright only applies to a "recording of information on a tangible fixed medium". Unfortunately, because the fountain pen existed before there was a such thing as trademark or patent law, its doubtful that such could be enforced with respect to the design of any one pen.
In my country, copyrights expire 50yrs following the death of the creator/author. Dr. Manfred Lamy, the creator of the LAMY 2000 and LAMY safari, retired in 2006. As such, it is my opinion that ANY pen manufacturer making pens in the likeness of either of these pens should be shunned, as their copyright certainly hasn't expired yet. This is but one example - and it's an easy one. It could be argued that the 50yr copyright 'retention' law is itself far too lengthy (and I'd agree). But it's still the law. So if my research uncovers a manufacturer who blatantly 'duplicates' or 'copies' the design of goods with copyrights still being held (and I'm aware of it), I'll give these manufacturers a wide berth regardless of what else they may be creating.
This is just my own view. You are most welcome to agree or disagree. Cheers!
Thanks for the topic, David. Other than fakes, I have no issues with clones, knockoffs, etc. I have bought several. But more because they were good pens for low cost (good value in my price range). A few for their looks, but I am not at all interested in brands, and fakes are usually attempts to overcharge for cheap trash.
none of the knock off, inspired by or clone bother me, as long as the brand name is the actual maker of that pen... say the Wing Sung 670 highly resembles the Parker Duofold but it says WingSung on it., then when you buy it, it's still lacking that "clout" and originality. It's the difference between an artist study of a master piece and straight up forgery or counterfeit
and some modern knock offs have their own advantages like cartridge converter fill vs push button sack fill
IMO, the Moonman T2 and Stipula are defiantly not copies / clones. Maybe exterior design influenced by but in no way a copy / clone. To be a copy / clone parts have to be interchangeable to me. If I can't tear both apart and randomly grab parts and pieces and assemble two items again they are not copies / clones. These two pens don't even use the same filling system. I always enjoy your vids but I think calling the T2 a clone is way off base.
Imo wing sung 699 is definitely inspired by the 823, not a knockoff. It isn't trying to be an 823, otherwise it would be a fake product, not inspired or a "clone" as I like to call them, although a clone does imply it would be the same as the original
For this reason, I avoid Chinese pens entirely. It’s the principle.
i dont, i buy them
Chinese are popular for clown for everything 😂😂😂
then you're missing out on some lovely and original pens by PenBBS :)
@@abhishekpanja4363 lmfaooooooooo half the things you use are probably from China. Is half of your life 🤡????????????
I'm going to say this is not a good reason to avoid purchasing Chinese pens or Chinese anything. You should avoid purchasing Chinese anyting, because the Communist Party of China uses slave labor and has murdered at least 50 million and up to 72 million of its own people in order to maintain power and economic support. That's a good reason to avoid Chinese products
I have enjoyed various reviewers' approaches to this subject. Ethical considerations are always worthy of attention, even if it
is, so to speak, "just a pen." Another review I enjoyed is SBRE Brown's review of the Stipula Splash and its dependence on the
Dollar pen from Pakistan. I have a German pen, Faber-Castell Loom, with a Chinese cap--or is it just the clip, since "China" is
impressed on the underside of the clip. I'm pretty sure I recall seeing reviews of vintage pens noting that Parker stole from
Sheaffer, or was it Sheaffer that stole from Parker, I forget.
I think I probably currently fit into the has no ability to drop over 100 on a pen yet so a knockoff does kinda interested me, like an opus 88 interests me because of the ability to put a pilot parrellel nib in it but I just can't afford one and I've heard a $30 tramol can do the same thing so maybe my morals aren't as strong but I'd rather be able to do this fun nib swap now instead of waiting for the day I can afford the real opus 88, I don't think I have any knockoffs yet tho unless the M2 is a knockoff of someone but I love it
See my comment. There is no moral issue here at all. There's nothing wrong with purchasing pens which use any idea at all.
Very interesting topic to discuss. I really enjoy watching your videos, you are a true gentleman.
I would have to say...for luxury collector products a lot of people are buying a name. So I’m not sure how much it matters. In these cases I think how it works is pretty important too. Do they work exactly the same? A Porsche just isn’t a Porsche unless it says so. I think the same with pens we collect.
For me I personally don't mind supporting brands that are inspired or even "heavily inspired" but I do make a clear distinction with counterfeit/fakes which I avoid as their intention is to deceive the customer. I doubt many people will confuse a T2 with a Stipula as they have a different branding and filling system.
I ask myself why hold this moral standard with pens but not everything else in my day to day life?
Well I'd argue that we need to do more to protect the pen economy since it's more fragile, than say electronics. I can say with a good degree of certainty that the pen business isn't exactly a lucrative market. Most of the pen shop owners, pen designers and pen makers do it out of passion for pens. Most of these businesses are small scale with a few employees. If we don't do more to protect these businesses, they are much easier to kill off, compared to say a large American electronics company.
And when they get squeezed out of the market by lower cost imitations, we won't be getting new fun designs in the future. We should absolutely hold ourselves to a higher moral standard when it comes to pens, if only for the future designs and ideas these small businesses come up with in the years to come.
@@jerrytong6395 my issue with this argument is that it creates a clear double standard, if it happens to both parties shouldn't we be equally concerned rather than picking one simply because it has a smaller following. To me this would be a clear contradiction as you appose a certain act of but are fine with it as long as it doesn't happen to something you like.
@@i.c.3157 I didn't absolve the electronics companies for copying each other, I used them as an example for industries that are more resilient to IP theft, as opposed to pen companies which are more fragile.
Even though they are more resilient, I did not say that it was ok. The electronics companies that steal IP are equally as disgusting as pen companies who do such.
We should hold all industries to the highest moral standard.
Competition helps in a commercial market. Other than colors Lamy has been stagnant. The Aon was poorly made with a loose cap in the same segment as the studio. Jinhao 599 proves that the true cost of a Lamy should be closer to $7-8 not $20+
I would like to have a Parker DuoFold Senior in good condition, but even if I could find one, it would be very expensive. However, I found a Montegrappa from 1935 (as I recall) that is very close to the same size and shape and also a button filler. The material of the body is IMO nicer than any of the Parkers and hasn't shrunk at all. the pen has a steel flex nib made by a Montegrappa subsidiary that is in some respects better than a Parker nib--perhaps less durable in rough hands. The pen could well have been inspired by the Duofold, but is different enough that the two can't be confused, and it is one of my favorites.
It’s easier to argue a pen that copies say Montblanc Homer, Ludwig, or montegrappa Got series are copycats because those pens have an artistic value to it. Some classic styles like the cigar shape, transparent cigar shaped vacuum fillers in this case, or even triangular pens like omas 360 are just too basic and one one cannot claim all cigar shaped pens, transparent pens or even triangular pens copycats. Else, we would only have a hand full of brands and a bunch of knock offs. Pens are pens, there’s only so much one can do to a cylinder.
I a little late to the party, but had to throw in a couple of thoughts on the subject as I have seen this brought up in other channels recently, especially with regard to the Moonman 800 vs the Leonardo Momento Zero.
Spending hundreds of dollars on a pen is just not realistic for me, so while I admire them, just not going to happen. To me the law of diminishing returns starts at around $100, but that is just MY watermark and mostly because I am one of the few who doesn't enjoy 14k nibs. And I like F or EF nibs. (The exception for me would be an Urushi pen. Sigh. )
I would offer that the two pens appeal to different markets - the folks that can and do buy the higher end pens are not going to buy the cheaper pens just to save money. Most ( my opinion ) folks buying the cheaper pens are not diminishing sales for the higher pens because they just aren't in the same market category.
I would also suggest that someone just getting into the world of FPs needs to try out different styles, nibs, etc. before discovering what they like and often these other pens can be a way to do that before going down a much more expensive rabbit hole.
Along with my other pens I have a couple of PenBBS, Moonman and Jinhao pens which are fun to write with and I enjoy them. I have one with a Fude nib which is an everyday favorite (custom Bobby grind). Will they last forever? Probably not, but I am under no illusion that they will, nor did I buy them because they resemble a MB or a Pilot, etc. I am not a collector. I am a user of my pens, so if I get a year or two out of a $25 PenBBS I will be happy.
I have no tolerance for any of the products which are clear fakes and try to pose as the real deal. Those should be outright banned. I like to read everyone's comments, and glad we have a place to express our thoughts freely. I just wish that folks would make themselves aware of what kind of 'rights' actually apply to these products and stop with the blanket rejections just because someone else announces that something illegal is being done. Think about that the next time you take generic medicine for $4 instead of the branded $400 one.
8:42 No. Uh-uh. Nope. No way. I'm sorry. I've heard it a hundered times and I think that denying that Sailor 1911 is a MB 146 clone is a kiss of death to credibility of the argument about this issue. These pens are nearly identical and I'm pretty certain that a person unfamiliar with these models would have a serious problem telling them apart without looking ar the brand marks.
The only reason I can see that anyone would say something like this is that Sailor isn't a Chinese company and 1911 doesn't cost $20. I'd bet anything that the same people who deny that 1911 is a clone of 146 would gladly accuse Sailor of "infringing" of MB's design if was a Chinese pen for $20.
By the way, "infringement" is a really unfortunate term here, as unlike "knock off" or "clone", "infringement" is a legal term which is for the most part used incorrectly in this matter. The legal protection of patent/design is limited in time and after it expires, making a "clone" of the design does not breach any laws and does not "infringe" anything.
Don't take this rant the wrong way. I enjoy this channel and your videos very much, but on this issue I'm definitely in the, let's say "liberal" camp. And some positions, as the one about the Sailor, I just don't find understandable.
I wonder if these Chinese knockoff pens are made due to availability. Do the original companies sell in China? If not, maybe that's why they make these.
Seeing as I am not in China, however, I do not buy these pens unless they are “generic pen shaped” or “inspired by” others. Examples include the Jinhao X750 or 159.
The "original" companies typically manufacture in China and the standard deal is that the Chinese company gets the benefit of the tooling/plant. They have actually agreed the local company can sell similar products. That's why you don't hear the "original" companies complain.
If the copies were actually sold under the names of the original designer thereby being fakes and possibly devaluing the original designer then it is bad and I would never purchase a pen no matter the price knowing this.
But most of them are not sold as the other pen and often do not mention the other pen at all, and due to the major difference in price and quality they are not actually impacting the original designer and they are not taking any of their customers because a person who is willing to buy a much more expensive but better quality pen will not buy a knockoff instead just to save money. And a person who cannot afford the original pen but likes the aesthics can buy the copy in the knowledge that it is not the real pen but without spending a lot of money.
I have a WingSung 699 and as a very attractive and well functioning vacuum filler for £17 it is a great offer to me as I am a student and cannot afford Pilot's pen which is almost 10x more expensive to get in the UK and if I did have one I would constantly be worried about losing or damaging it.
I support what these companies are doing by offering good looking cheaper pens but I do think that they need to make some new designs of their own to help their reputation and provide something new to the market.
I will not categorize Wing Sung 698 as a knockoff after TWSBI 580 , i also heard that 698 it's also a knockoff of TWSBI Eco if i do that then I better categorize TWSBI 580 , Eco as a knockoff after the Pelikan M : 205 , 405 , 605 , 805 Transparent versions !
I believe more that Wing Sung 698 it's inspired by Pelikan M : 205 , 405 , 605 , 805 Transparent versions instead !
This is too much. If the basic design is the cigar, has not everyone copied it? The pen can have a round bottom and top , or a flat one. How many variations can we have here? Pen without a bottom? Next you can go on disputing the nib shape. How many differences one can have? What about the feed then? And what about the material? If some one has black plastic or resin, no one else can have it?
If such standard is extended to pencils, what would happen?
If such niceties are insisted upon, there cannot be ten companies making violin or guitars or flutes! Look at the cars! Do they not all conform to some basic shapes and scientific and engineering principles? I feel this is a matter where IPR is inapplicable and disadvantageous, except for the lawyers.
Fake product is a different matter and that should be dealt with under criminal law.
Unconscionably high price would attract clones or imitations or inspirations. This cannot be stopped or prevented. In a sense it is good for the normal consumer- though not for one bent on conspicuous consumption as a status symbol.
There is enough product differentiation to rule out ideas of perfect cloning, imitation or inspiration.
I have one Montblanc and twenty Jinhao 159s. These Jinhaos cost less than $7 and write MUCH BETTER THAN MONTBLANC! They are also more sturdily built. (Drop both from a high table on the hard floor and see the difference- Jinhao emerges undamaged!) Why should I then object to a clone or imitation or inspiration?
spicy comments section, i like it. I'd buy Japanese gold nib pens because of how it writes at half cost of western ones, save for designs, have a chinese copy of sailor profit/1911L but I can't bother with its too large line for medium nib, not mentioning uncharacteristic writing experience, I'm saving my limited desk space for I'm already swamped by too many 'new thing, fancy' so Japanese shape copies are perfect for me to keep me fron collecting-hoarding chinese pens. Now I'm also a digital artist, buyer and user of Chinese 3D printers that are indisputed enablers, but I live in country where distributors are trying all they can to hike price for their profit, and there wasn't many distributors so for some time I was stuck to pay more than western countries can have down to the much better aftersales, and parts.
In the case of risk and service purchasing those two, FP has much more risk, but I guess I was lucky that I got all 3 major japanese pen brands with gold nibs to love their absolutely different good writing experiences to one another.
As an artist, I highly respect uniquely good things, but I welcome honest imitation, I'd prefer the market being able to choose better for themselves but not fight over simple pricing issue. The exact artistic expression which fp manufactures boast of is one to seek individually. The 10000 year brush meaning for fountain pen in japanese/chinese(it kanji, actually Chinese of origin too)
is exaggerated yet became house name, taking it for real, there should be only few to make favorites of, and Chinese pens do not suit many ideas I believe to be better for my life because I can't better attest to the price that means a throwaway or buy and never use
check out the Chinese Whale ink, it's a complete copy of the noodler's ink. Exactly the same bottle same package ......speechless
www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001405491601.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.7faf8eb9dD4XIY&algo_pvid=62cb3a1b-ee4d-4baf-901a-f812aee378d4&algo_expid=62cb3a1b-ee4d-4baf-901a-f812aee378d4-0&btsid=0b0a556e16036968648775056e086a&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
It does bother me to see a close imitation of a recent and very distinctive pen design, such as the Moonman M800 being a virtual clone of the Leonardo Momento Zero. And yet, buying the Moonman has led some people to wanting to get the original Leonardo. Personally, I might never even have heard of the Leonardo if not for the Moonman. On the other hand, Wing Sung resurrecting the Parker 51 design in their 601, and even improving on it, is a reason to celebrate, as far as I'm concerned. Parker isn't making those pens anymore, but we can still have that great workhorse design in a modern pen that doesn't need to be babied because it's 60 years old and priceless.
And let's not forget that pen manufacturers imitating each other goes back to the 1920s, when Conklin came out with the Duragraph a couple of years after Parker invented the Duofold.
By the way, I have a couple of Wing Sung 698s and it never even occurred to me that they copied TWSBIs. They have distinctive Pilot nibs (clones, not inspired by!), lack the iconic TWSBI diamond barrel design, have glunky overweighted caps that don't seem TWSBI-like to me, and the plastic feels very different from any TWSBI I own. But when you put them side by side I can see some resemblance. (Mine are not clear demonstrators so the resemblance is less obvious.) I would say they are "inspired by" TWSBI far more than being "clones." PenBBS has also used a similar flat cap ring design in some of its pens.
Interesting takes but as stated there is a lot of grey in between , I had the same feeling that giving business to those copies ,and some knock off simply encourage those bad behaviour. Sadly am seeing a trend those same company who churns out knockoffs might also had pen totally original styled but yet those will not sell as good as the copies, the knockoffs even if it's a better pen. The fountain pen community are also faulted in itself being too entrenched with some set mind on what's what. Montblanc Vs Sailor example clearly so . That style was not even Montblanc original, before Montblanc adopt it that style was long used by other Mfr yet today we see one like this we say it's Montblanc styled ! That goes with the Parker Duofold which is in itself copying design from the even earlier Waterman's.
So while I agree with the stance, I had to say a large part of this kind of bad market notion come from us the customers .
I think you could have also brought in the platinum 3776 and president among others - there is nothing uniquely valuable about a monte blanc other than name brand.
This post should come with a huge "IANAL" disclaimer.
Eloquently argued. I'm not completely in agreement on some aspects but that is fine; these are all opinions (mine included). For me the most blatant cases are where a manufacturer actually passes off their product as someone else's. I frankly consider that theft and my views may be stronger than yours. Look on eBay for "Parker sonnet series". The pen says Parker. It is sold as a Parker. The converter is sold as Parker and sometimes even the converter format/diameter is Parker-compatible. I bought a couple of these before I knew what I was doing (I've been in this hobby under a year). I have one genuine Sonnet and one that I bought second hand as a genuine Sonnet, priced as such, and as far as I can tell it's a genuine Sonnet. When someone brands a product as someone else's work then that is passing off.
I'm more neutral about "inspired by". The main use for these in my case has been to learn the hobby, to get myself into the zone, to learn how to look after them. I've bought a stupid quantity of the genuine article (such as Lamy including 2 studios and a 2000), there's a stupid number of Preras, Metros and MRs in my hoard, and so on. There are also many Wing Sung 3008s 3001s and so on. I have a couple of 699s bought so I could decide if vac filling is for me. In fact I have the 823 on my wish list for purchase in the next month or so. I think in summary that these pens have their place but I would like to see brand owners taking a more aggressive takedown stance on the passing-off brigade. You would not hear of Nike, Adidas or Lacoste putting up with it. The likes of these fake Parkers should be no different, not least because innocent new-user buyers may not know what's fake and what is not.
Wait, the Moonman2 is a knockoff? I didn't know that and I have one!
Every time I think of getting a sailor, I don't because I feel like it is a knock off of the mont blanc. To me, there are a slot of mont blanc knock offs bc its the classic expensive pen that non people know. If someone who doesn't know sees the sailor I thunk that they would think its the MB. In terms of similarity, it is just as similar or even more so than the jinhao to the lamy. I know the sailor is a nice quality pen worthy of its price, I would just always feel like it's a MB clone
The argument that it’s ok to steal something if you can’t afford it, doesn’t seem like a good argument to me.
Apparently the idea "redistributing" stuff from people who "don't deserve it" is popular these days :(
See, that's Dave's issue. He characterizes it as theft in essence, when at our law there is absolutely nothing wrong with it for very good moral reasons. See my own commentary on this down below. If people think about this properly, instead of getting up in arms over the idea that's something like an idea was owned by somebody already, they would understand the real issue. Which is can you use a design that is created by somebody else. Our law, and our moral code say absolutely yes, absent very very specific protections.
I wanted to mention again that thanks to you David I got a limited edition bloody pumpkin bottle of ink from Papier plume! My birthday is on Halloween and it was a gift to myself that I would not have known about were not for you! Thank you sir!
good video, I think all pens can be inspired by unless they are claiming to be that pen when they are not ie a fake
I dont see how a sailor 1911 is inspired but a Chinese pen is a knock off
people buy the sailor pens because they love the characteristics of the sailor as it is not because they look like a MB. but people buy the knockoff because they just look like an expensive alternative and nothing more.
@@mrrubymrcapri37 I wasn't condemning people for buying expensive pens just that all pens can be inspired by others with the exception of a fake
@@mrrubymrcapri37 I don't think most moonman fans are buying the T2 because it is a "knock-off" of a stipula but moonman still draws criticism by "copying" them.
I got some faux Lamy's when I was 1st starting out most where shitty but even my partner that has a few fountain pens at the time and was alot more versed at this thing was like damn that is actually not bad and was only like AU$2 with free shipping we don't use them any more but i like it coz it was clear and all the metal parts the nib and clip were that rainbow finish which is a favourite thing of mine
but we have amassed a decent collection now from my obsession with Twsbi, gift giving eachother and getting that Inkredible box from Truphae
The area yes is pretty grey however I think back to Lego and what they have been through and finally won the right to there products in China and surprisingly the Chinese government has been shutting down the Lepin factories and jailing the owners. I'm a Lego collector and I hated Lepin and other companies as it was so cheap looking the quality was crap and you could feel the difference in the material and sometime the parts just didn't fit.
Now thinking about this subject do I care for knockoffs or people buying them considering myself have in the past No and Yes. I guess I have grown in this short 10 months since purchasing those faux lamy's off aliexpress I dont need them anymore and I dont care if people buy them as we all start somewhere and these can (cause most as bad) are great to start off with get a feel for them then take that next step to maybe a real lamy with a different nib size coz the fake ones are one size and thats it
I've realised in the years I would buy something fake if I like it I will go out and buy the real deal and I think this is like with alot of people do you like it that much to pay the dollars for it.
the annoying thing with this disccusion is that no one is able to bring out a knock off or a copy that is not chineese to the table or dare to say it's a knock off. so it raises this question do you have to be chineese to make a knock off product? i think this is not a healthy discussion since the examples are from only one country when we know that every intelligent being can copy.
I agree. The very clear intent of the review is that if it is a Chinese manufacturer it is a rip-off while anyone else is an innovator.
I am so glad that you made this video. And I am in the majority camp. However, I do beg to differ in regards to the 1911 v Montblanc. I have never seen them side by side, but after watching your video, I would argue that 1911 WAS a knock off until it isn't. Just look at their nib imprint! The extent of my anti-knock-off perspective has led me to not own a sailor despite the praise that it receives. I am sure you are familiar with how the Japanese automotive industry rips off American/ European designs in the 60s and produced more fuel-efficient cars, etc. I think the Chinese FP market is going through sth similar. Unlike Moonman, Sailor has gone through the test of time and has developed their own signature profile to become who they are now. In my opinion, People who purchase a black 1911 look is after how they write rather than how it looks.
Although I am skeptical of Chinese FP manufacturers ever achieving what sailor was able to do, I think one should acknowledge that 1911 is a knockoff that has gone right.
Even the quality and performance is very similar, the Chinese companies are able to sell these products relatively in low price because of their unethical labor practices with dirt-low wages, human rights abuses, bad working conditions, no environmental regulations and not allowing any unions. So the problem is not just infringement of copyright but other issues as well. I agree that some of the European and Japanese brands have outrageous prices and not many people can afford them, precisely because of their fair labor practices and paying decent wages to their workers, so on and so forth. As you concluded, it is a personal choice. Thank you David.
Eh, as a Chinese, I have to correct you that they do allow union - but only "the union" which is under the lead of the communist party, and is almost always useless, if not used against the worker's rights.
I think you're looking at this from the wrong side. It's not really that Chinese fountain pens are especially cheap. At least not just that.
It's that western branded pens are horribly overpriced in the first place.
The main problem being the fact that when you buy a Parker or a Montblanc, apart from the product itself, you pay for the brand and for the abstract idea of the product being "luxury". This isn't the case when you buy a Jinhao or a Moonman. You don't pay a penny for the brand and the "luxurity".
Thanks for the review, David. I didn't know about the poll and must admit I'm surprised the "I don't mind stolen design" camp is as large as 43%! Such a result means it's not just the ethics of companies producing copies/knockoffs is wrong (or non-existent), but the ethics of buyers of their products, as well. That's why reviews like this one are important, so thank you again.
Well of course the words stolen and copyright infringement are intended to already make your decision easy. At least this time, David says it's his opinion. There is no moral issue with this in any way shape or form. See my own comment.
Just waiting for someone to put out a straight up Conid clone. LOL
penbbs 355 has a similar filling mechanism but with some design elements that are different.
David - I am genuinely interested to know why, when you say that Wing Sung are “doing everything within their power to match the look of the Pilot 823” why they wouldn’t have copied the Pilot clip exactly? Surely not very difficult given everything else they’d copied. It’s not like that Pilot clip is complex, so wouldn’t have changed the production costs.
@D Fire P Normally I’d buy that but clearly if they wanted to do “everything in their power” - as David said - to copy an 823, copying the Pilot clip was very much within their power, since they copied everything else.
I’d argue that what they are doing by slightly modifying the clip and band and putting their logo on there is really not any different to Sailor slightly modifying the end cap and finial of a Montblanc, putting their name on it and removing Montblanc’s logo, which they would have to do as this is a legal trademark.
I find it interesting how deeply anti-Chinese bias pervades the judgements here. When a premium Japanese company does it, it’s ‘inspired by’ and when a more budget-minded Chinese company does it, it’s a ‘clone’ or a ‘knockoff’.
Even the choice of words - inspiration vs knocking off - reveals this deep-seated bias.
Well let's be honest: David hasn't any knowledge about what Wing Sung or any other manufacturer is doing or why. He is choosing his words here in an effort to persuade people that manufacturers he doesn't like are bad people. He certainly seems to feel it's fine to assert poor ethics on manufacturers from certain countries, while being happy to excuse the same design attitudes in others. As I pointed out, Visconti has clearly appropriated the Stipula design. But Moonman with the T2 gets criticized. Likely the "copying" he complains of was already "copied" by Stipula.
Thanks you for an interesting video, however i would dispute your conclusion on the Moonman as being a clone it is certainly "Inspired by" the Stipula but as there are many fairly significant differences i.e. size, the clip, the filling mechanism and also that fact the it quite clearly states that it is a Moonman pen it is not an exact copy therefore it is not a clone. I would suggest that the sailor is the closest of the lot to being a clone although again is not an exact copy to technically not a clone. I agree that blatant copying and passing yourself off as the original is wrong, I do feel that for many of us the price is a big factor, i like to collect different styles of pen and as such i cannot afford to be spending $200 - $500 dollars on pens regularly so the choice becomes one r two expensive pens or 9 or 10 cheaper ones accepting that as a rule they probably won't be as good as the original.
While I understand people’s concern over IP theft, these knockoffs and clones do serve a couple purposes in my mind:
One is as a trial pen. Take the pilot clone. Maybe I really like the design and filling mechanism of the pilot, but don’t have a store anywhere around me where I can hold it, try filling it, etc. 280 or whatever they’re retailing for online these days is a lot to spend blind for what is essentially a luxury item that serves very little practical purpose. But, I could maybe justify snagging that cheap clone off of eBay and seeing if I really like the design enough to grab the luxury version.
A second purpose these can serve is as a barometer for how much I’m being charged by the established brands for design and “labor” alone. What I mean is this: if a clone comes out from China with the exact same design and materials, but costs orders of magnitude less, then the difference I’m paying for is the design IP held by the original company and the knowledge that it was their machines and workers who made it. With that knowledge, I can decide if I feel the cost is worth it. You don’t even have to buy the knockoff in this case. (I put labor in quotes, because it seems that in several industries, when a Chinese clone appears that is nearly indistinguishable from the original save brand name, it’s because the original was made at the exact same factory, by the same folks, using the same materials, only with a different logo and brand name, and perhaps shipped off to be “assembled in” a different country. I often wonder if anything like this goes on in the pen industry.)
I used to hold a similar opinion to yours, it's gradually changed over the last few years. I really don't want to come off as being critical of what you've said, but I'd like it if you could hear me out.
My problem with the "trial pen" idea is that maybe you'll end up buying the real pen if you like the clone, but lots of other people probably won't. When the clone is released into the market, the exclusivity for the unique design is gone. A unique design that someone out there worked on, invested in and cared about, only to be stolen by some stranger who wants to turn a quick buck. This greatly decreases the value and desirability of the original design, since people think that they can get "the exact same thing" at a much lower price. This directly hurts the original designer.
Even if the clone pen is manufactured in the same factory, I don't think that makes a difference. When a designer contracts a factory to create the design, he is not giving that design to the factory. If the factory goes around the owner, and produces the design, they are stealing the IP. But that's not even the worst part. When the pens are bought from the original company, the $ difference for IP you mentioned, doesn't just go into the designers pocket. Only a small fraction does. This $ value is split between pen distributors that then sell to pen shops which then sell to the consumer. These companies are keeping their staff employed, that's media people, sales people, packing people and more. You might not care about these people, but they are the ones who will be affected if buying a "identical pen save brand name".
Sure, we're not going to bankrupt the pen shops by buying one "identical pen save brand name". But if we normalize this kind of IP theft, we're chipping away at the market share for these companies, year by year. And some years down the line, we might ask ourselves, what happened to all the pen shops where we could try pens and share our hobby?
Jerry Tong Thank you for defending fountain pen designers. Without them, where would our hobby be?
@@jerrytong6395 A couple points in reply; and again, I completely understand the concerns, I’m just trying to offer insight into why some people don’t get so bent out of shape about it.
As to the first response you gave, I’m not sure that the availability of knock-offs or clones really takes away from the desirability of the original. If anything, it’s a testament to just how high of a desirability the original has. We saw this in the past with people trying to buy just the cap for old Parker pens to look like they owned a prestigious item. I’d be willing to bet that any of those people would have purchased the actual pen had they had the means to do so.
We see it in our current day with knockoff Mont Blancs, rolexes, Gucci bags, etc. The imitators have done nothing to hurt the desirability or exclusivity of the brand. I’d even say it encourages those who are able to purchase the real deal, because then they have the status symbol, luxury item, etc. that everyone else merely pretends to have.
Moreover, I’d say that it also could encourage sales. As I said previously, an extravagant purchase like a luxury fountain pen might never be justifiable in someone’s mind. But then they get the knockoff and the “itch” sets in. “I like this one,” they say to themselves, “it’s all I need. I was so smart to save all that money.” Then they find themselves looking at pictures of the real deal online...they start spotting slight differences...they start to wonder, “can everyone else tell that I have the cheap knockoff?” Then, a year or two later, this person who otherwise never would have purchased it originally finds themselves online buying a $600 fountain pen and wondering how they’ll explain it to their spouse.
As to the second reply, I think you misunderstood my point. My point isn’t that I would want to buy the cheaper alternative, but rather that the cheaper alternative gives me a baseline cost of what the physical object of the pen itself is actually worth. With that information, I can now decide if what the original company is charging me is a fair markup for the item, or if I’m paying for overpriced marketing hype or a poor business model.
I agree that labor charges are widespread for the original company, and that maybe their business model (including their marketing budget, sales team, social media folks, etc.) might mean that they have to charge a lot to cover their costs; but as a consumer I might look at the cost, look at what someone else is charging for essentially the same materials, and say: “Okay, so you’re asking me to pay $X for the pen, and $Y to cover extraneous business costs. I’m sorry but what I’m getting for my money doesn’t justify it.” This reasoning is specifically why I’ll likely never own a non-secondhand Mont Blanc and why I almost immediately sold my pelikan m600 once I held it in hand.
@@gardyloogubbins For large companies with strong brand recognition, what you said can be true. People will instantly see fakes and copied designs instantly. That won't harm those companies. However, that's not the case for many small companies. For products from companies that don't have the brand recognition, buyers won't even know that the designs were copied. Later on, when they see the original, they'll think "why is it so expensive? I bought a similar/identical product a while ago for a fraction of the price". That's very hard for the original company to overcome. That's what I would want to avoid.
Maybe we were thinking about different price ranges. In the 1000+ price range, there definitely is the factor of marketing hype. I'm all for the secondary market, it builds brand recognition and brand loyalty. If I'm understanding you correctly, you don't want to get suckered into something expensive just for hype. That's reasonable, but I wouldn't support buying them though, even if the original is unreasonable.
@@jerrytong6395 So, here’s where I’m having a bit of a disconnect with what you’re saying I guess:
You say: “that would be difficult for the original company to overcome.” What companies are you thinking of? In my experience, the only brands I see being copied (big or small) are those that have already “made it,” and become established as a name in the industry. Take TWSBI for instance. Cheap Chinese copies of their pens abound on amazon and eBay. But are they losing business in a substantial enough amount to worry about the company going under? I doubt it. In fact, the only reason wing sung and others copy their design is because they are a popular brand that people want. Again, I doubt that TWSBI, a brand constantly hyped by all the fountain pen e-celebs (a weird and fascinating concept in and of itself) is all that concerned over the cheap knockoffs. Because, even if someone buys those, they’ll likely eventually get the real deal, because that’s what they were wanting in the first place.
You seem concerned that someone will stumble across these knockoffs and never buy the real thing, because the knockoffs are cheaper. But really, how many people are stumbling into fountain pen purchases these days? These are, at their core, anachronistic eccentricities that relatively few of us are even aware of. Most anyone who is looking to buy a wing sung already knows about the TWSBI, and likely wants to buy it, but can’t yet justify spending $60 dollars on a pen. But like I said before, that $5 purchase, plus the constant viewing of “Top 5 Pen” lists, and gushing fountain pen reviews will likely eventually lead to the purchase of that $60 pen, then the $100 pen (because of course we’ve been convinced by our constant UA-cam searches that we have to experience the amazement that is a gold nib) then the $500 pen (because who doesn’t want a pen that made Brian Goulet’s top 5 pens to last a lifetime list? And this one is made out of lava!) And so on.
Thank you for your positivity. I am with you. I do not prefer Chinese rip offs.
There are FAR more important reasons not to buy Communist Chinese products:
- they use slave labor, which keeps costs low
- they are exterminating the Uighar ethnic group, as well as using them as slaves .
- the UN has concluded they routinely use political dissidents as organ donors
- the CCP has murdered AT LEAST 55 million of their own citizens, possibly as many as 82 million, to maintain political control in China.
- They have now crushed democracy in Hong Kong for good.
- They have threatened to invade Taiwan as early as March 2021, and purge (ie. murder) all anticommunist elements there.
- they have used Huawei, zoom and tiktok as espionage tools (check FBI reports on these) and Huawei CEO is awaiting extradition from Canada to the US on espionage charges.
- Need I continue?
But yeah, let's put our foot down on a pen that might be a partial copy of a pen that's probably a partial copy. Just saying.
@@shadowmihaiu well said, thank you!
To be honest David, there is so much you can do with a fountain pen. For example a semi transparent plastic pen by sailor asks for 200$ and a pen from another company with 95% similar looks asks for 20$ with same material shouldn't I go for 20$. Unless it's a handmade pen I would not dare to pay more than a 100$ at most.
I respect you for your mindset. I understand the difficulty of originality when it comes to pens but I still find it disturbing due to my profession.
Mmmmm. A fake sold intentionally to deceive places itself in an obvious position with regard to legality. The rest? Perhaps a video too far?
Sailor is a small thief and winsung,jinhao are big thieves . And it is defined by differences of similarity and price. And it is a sin if big thief steals from small thief. So every thief would steal small and reckon price high.