This is a great track.. yes, Influenced by other guitar styles like Holdsworth and Summers, .. but aren't we all? It's still killer music and unique enough from Bill..it still sounds like Bill Connors! ... these 80's BC fusion albums are going to be more and more appreciated for years to come.. they're so killer , playing-wise and the songs are awesome fusion compositions.. beautiful music.
Bill Connors was first with Chick Corea, Stanley Clarke on their debut jazz rock album “Hymn of The Seventh Galaxy” released in the U.S.A. In 1973. Alan Holdsworth was first recorded in England within a year before or after that time. Their development was parallel but unique to each of them. They each came by it honestly. They are both originals.
Correction! Alan Holdsworth appeared first in 1968 on an album called Igginbottoms wrench. Nobody played that legato style before Holdsworth, they are not parallel! When Bill Connors appeared on Chic Corea's album, "hymn of the seventh galaxy, his style sounded more like John Mclaughlin than Holdsworth! Connors developed that legato style much later when the album "step it" came out. I believe that was 1984?
I previously had no knowledge of Bill Connors - after listening to a few songs on here, i bought and now own Step It, Double Up and Assembler, and i can honestly say i can sing every single note to every song correctly in my head - there isnt many musicians you can say that about i should think!
Despite what others may say about the Holdsworth copycat thing. I i thing Bill is still different and interesting. Some people judge him by listening to just a couple of songs. You should listen to at least the three albuns he released in the 80s. "Step it", "Double Up" and "Assembler". If you are coming from other style of music you will notice that he is more melodical and accessible composition wise and his songs are more well balanced than Holdsworth's which are over top in many ocasions. I love Holdsworth, really, but Bill has a place in my record collection and i consider him one of the top Creative Fusion guitarists of all time.
Fabulous! I can see the influence with Alan Holdsworth in tonality and sound, but it would be unjust to say there is a copycat thing going on. And there's a hint of Andy Summers/The Police in this piece too. Whatever, it's a brilliant work by these incredible players.
I'm a guitar player and I'm glad there is none of the soprano sax playing on his later albums, but to each his own. I like the sax solo on Cafe Vue, but this electric stuff shows how Bill isn't content to play the same thing forever. I never heard the Double it album cuts until tonight, but love them. He and Holdsworth do have similarities during this period IMO, but I agree, Bill has a somewhat ballsier, earthier sound. "Return" is very different from things he recorded during the 80's.
He does have a little bit of Andy Summers (Police) chord voicings and flanger sound. I did notice that myself, when I first heard of it, but I don't think it is a bad thing, although the phrasing is a bit along the style of Allan Holdsworth, and that's definitely not a bad thing. This is a classic album, a must-have for any fusion fans, like myself. I've been loving it ever since 1986.
Mr. Connors has a spanish kind of vibe, more flamenco-like. If you were to play these same licks via acoustic guitar it sounds more like it leans more towards that vain. I do agree on the Alan Holdsworth setup sounding familiar with the whole trio and arrangement though. Both players use different harmonies from what I am hear when listening to both. Alan is much more dissonant and leans towards more sax and 'out there' stuff, Bill plays more in the changes but uses more flamenco-based phrases, and puts emphasis on blues here and there. I believe many say they sound familiar because both are influenced by a horn player (ie.Coltrane) and the legato technique. I am no musicologist or anything, just a guy who plays both bass and guitar and loves music. I prefer Bill Connors because he speaks more and his album 'Step it' to me is the most grounded. The rest are more show off'ish to me. Just my two cents :)
This is beautiful playing. I guess it sounds enough like Holdsworth's style to initially make me wonder if it is Holdsworth, but then say, 'Nah', and try to figure out who the hell it is, and why I never heard of him before today?!
Huh. I was just having the thought about definitely having heard many guitarist in my life that were influenced by Holdsworth, before actually coming across Alan himself, I was thinking people instantly calling them "cheap imitations" but I equally admire their tone/voicings/phrasing. First time hearing this song, was thinking exactly of Metal Fatigue, embarrassingly not knowing much else to compare it to.
yeah. it was the '80's ie the "Clean tone w/chorus/Dimension D effect" for chords ad the "flutey high gain tone with legato phrasing" for leads. Holdsworth pioneered the sound and style, so it's natural Bill would pick some of it up, as I'm sure everybody did at the time. Just like the earlier raw McLoughlin styles of the early '70's that everybody was influnced by at that time.
GW: Numerous players have taken unmistakable elements of your style - vibrato-arm techniques like slurring into notes or flying them away by shaking them sharp, volume swells and your general linear concept - and assimilated them to where they've become staples in both rock and jazz-rock. Bill Connors, who's a wonderful player, leaps to mind. Does your influence frustrate or disturb you in any way? HOLDSWORTH: It doesn't frustrate me at all, but it would frustrate me if I were them, because it's a waste of time. I mean, Bill Connors was, to me, an example of someone who had a very unique style. I think I first heard him on a Stanley Clarke album I loved, and on that album Bill sounded like Bill Connors. Now it's like ... I don't know. It makes me realize how fickle and unimportant a thing style is. It's interesting how something like that can push that person who's been imitated into a direction they might not otherwise have gone. For example, when people start to pick up on my things, it makes me realize how superficial those things are, and that makes me move forward. You realize, "Oh, that must have been so meaningless that it was just like a face panel from 1980," something that everybody had. Something else comes out and you realize it's just not an important thing at all. So when I hear people playing not just like me, but like, say Bill Connors used to play i t's positive inasmuch as it might move me towards something else. If someone else can't take the time to find it. I'm sure gonna look.. hard. 😲
Absolutely!!! I saw/heard Return to Forever when Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy was issued, and I'd never heard such guitar work. Tho what I hear here sounds a bit mechanical - like John McLaughlin. Apologies, I was not familiar with Allan Holdsworth or Soft Machine, tho what I've heard on UA-cam from him since reading this thread reminds me of McLaughlin.
@placidian Check out Chick Corea's original Return To Forever lineup. Bill tends to stay more in the pocket than Allan.Don't get me wrong, I like both players but I really dig Bill's groove and his use of harmony.
@stratoleft I hear some similarities in the tone/effects at times but I agree there are some distinct difference in phrasing. I kinda wish Allan would groove more like Bill does at times. It doesn't always have to be about how insanely complicated or high speed something can be, to have my ear tuned to it. When they go into 5 (1:00-1:11), that is solid groove right there, with everyone's leaving spaces for each others' sounds to breathe, especially Tom's which mostly underneath..
Great, I'm officially a fan of this guy now,besides the Holdsworth stylistic similarities -in his soloing/voicings , I also hear a Police/Andy Summers vibe on some of that rockier beat + arpeggiated guit. w/ clean sound transition around 3:50 min.
Listen to Theme to the Guardian (1974, ECM) to know what Bill Connors was really capable of doing, or in Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy (1973, with RtF) before Allan was a big name. I don't think Connors made such a vast and important career as Holdsworth though, and had such a distinguished style.
please let me know when you upload something, thanks,, but you can hear the individual notes on this, when I listen to old rt, forever,, I always wonder,,do alot of guitarists woodshed with so many special effects they can not even tell what notes they are playing,
Yeah, Holdsworth is in the field of fusion much alike McLaughlin. I really like both, McLaughling for his improvisation skills within Miles Davis band and his acoustic work in Shakti which is godlike for me. Holdsworth has a tone that is just Holdsworth's tone, especially heard on Gazeuse! by Gong or Enigmatic Ocean by Jean-Luc Ponty, two great jazz late 70s fusion. John Goodsall is also very much in the league of these guys, just listen to Brand X's Unorthodox Behaviour.
@WELLBRAN I saw Al with RTF last June and think Al's a bit stale by now. I heard all the same tricks in 1974. Bill keeps on evolving into new territories. Police? Men at Work?!? Turn your ears on, I think they died. (response to GordonS2)
Beautiful composition , played masterfully, may i sugest ,for those that do not know, Fire Merchants, featuring John Goodsall, Doug Lunn and Chester Thompson (ua-cam.com/video/tjCLsg7DaiI/v-deo.html) which is another 3 piece band that came out in the mid 1980s around the same time Connors was releasing his electric albums.
Stale? Well I think al has been riding on his past reputation for uite awhile I hate that every album He makes there is the Traditional oldie tacked on to most Albums, but He is still a great player
It's possible. Allan had been perfecting his legato since '77. The first IOU album dates from '82. Connors played in a completely different way in RTF. Closer to McLaughlin. It's clear on listening to Connors that he must have studied Holdsworth's methods. Allan very politely said he preferred Connors when he sounded like Bill Connors.
@@Fontsman OK fair enough, but Connors did play in a much more legato articulated style of his own back in '73 w/ RTF when compared to Johnny Mac's more staccato, pick-every-note approach. Sure JM's playing was an influence overall, since Mahavishnu's first album dates from 1971 and was a pretty unprecedented musical affair , but Bill had used some sweep picking passages and many long tones, features which were/are alien to Johnny Mac's style. There is how ever a guy who is little known and who never got the recognition he fully deserved due to his low key personality and personal problems and who might have, unbeknownst to most, been and early influence on Allan's - His name was Pete 'Ollie' Halsall and he fist appeared in 1971 as guitarist for British 'Rock N Soul' band Patto. If not an actual influence on AH, Halsall developed an independent, similar approach as far as phrasing went. Check him out if you have a chance (and if you already know of Halsall, you know about this).
But after IOU. This is definitely Holdsworth influenced. No one could buy Connor's supporters story that it isn't. Holdsworth invented this chordal style AND this soloing style on guitar. Connors does a great job on the chordal aspect though. Very very good. The soloing is not quite up to Holdsworthian standards.
At one time Connors had an original sound and style especially in Return to Forever. But this just a poor pastiche of Allan's work. I never understood why Connors went down this road as Allan is the master.
pleximanic no, this is great in it's own way even tho of course going after allan's sound. I used to hate these connors albums after being big into allan in 80s+90s but eventually got sick of allans music and sounds, then only a couple years ago gave connors a fair shake and actually like his take on allans style better than allans himself! bills is more earthy relatable upbeat energetic and blues tinged...basically more "american" sounding than allans, which makes sense. So it funny how i loved allan and didnt like bills 80s albums, now its the reverse! always like bill in 70s tho. allans 70s i still like as well.
The sounds are very similar, but they play like different PEOPLE. The writing and improvisational note choices are very different. It seems a pity that because of the superficial similarities, Bill was always in the shadow of Allan. Both of these guys contributed tremendously to my own musical development, and I owe them a debt I could never repay!
This is a great track.. yes, Influenced by other guitar styles like Holdsworth and Summers, .. but aren't we all? It's still killer music and unique enough from Bill..it still sounds like Bill Connors! ... these 80's BC fusion albums are going to be more and more appreciated for years to come.. they're so killer , playing-wise and the songs are awesome fusion compositions.. beautiful music.
Bill Connors was first with Chick Corea, Stanley Clarke on their debut jazz rock album “Hymn of The Seventh Galaxy” released in the U.S.A. In 1973. Alan Holdsworth was first recorded in England within a year before or after that time. Their development was parallel but unique to each of them. They each came by it honestly. They are both originals.
Correction! Alan Holdsworth appeared first in 1968 on an album called Igginbottoms wrench. Nobody played that legato style before Holdsworth, they are not parallel! When Bill Connors appeared on Chic Corea's album, "hymn of the seventh galaxy, his style sounded more like John Mclaughlin than Holdsworth! Connors developed that legato style much later when the album "step it" came out. I believe that was 1984?
Bill Conorrs is the definition of an underated guitar genius...
YES
I previously had no knowledge of Bill Connors - after listening to a few songs on here, i bought and now own Step It, Double Up and Assembler, and i can honestly say i can sing every single note to every song correctly in my head - there isnt many musicians you can say that about i should think!
i can't get tired of listening to this tune, especially the bass line at 1:46, reminds me of Geddy Lee's sound on the Moving Pictures album.
Wow!!!!! cool , I can see that.. killer
The drummer is killing it
A 24 year-old Dave Weckl. One of the best albums he ever made.
Despite what others may say about the Holdsworth copycat thing. I i thing Bill is still different and interesting.
Some people judge him by listening to just a couple of songs.
You should listen to at least the three albuns he released in the 80s. "Step it", "Double Up" and "Assembler".
If you are coming from other style of music you will notice that he is more melodical and accessible composition wise and
his songs are more well balanced than Holdsworth's which are over top in many ocasions. I love Holdsworth, really, but Bill has a place in my record collection and i consider him one of the top Creative Fusion guitarists of all time.
I love this tune. It makes me feel optimistic. Thanks to the band!
Brilliance and maturity on his instrument is very special. One of the greatest. Huge Fan.
AWESOME ~~!! sound like Andy Summers+Allan Holdsworth
Yes.
Probably because his playing with Return to Forever in early 70s inspired them - and many others - in fact a whole music genre
Now I know one of the guitar players that influenced Al Dimeola !
One of Eric Johnson’s influences.
In this number, yes
Fabulous! I can see the influence with Alan Holdsworth in tonality and sound, but it would be unjust to say there is a copycat thing going on. And there's a hint of Andy Summers/The Police in this piece too. Whatever, it's a brilliant work by these incredible players.
Yes, the beginning of that part starting @ 0:33 - is very The Police-like.
He played with Return to Forever on there 1st L.P.
" Hymn Of The Seventh Galaxy " & believe me , He. brought the Seventh Galaxy
to Them ! Bad Dude !!
@@tiluriso It's the drum sound.
I'm a guitar player and I'm glad there is none of the soprano sax playing on his later albums, but to each his own. I like the sax solo on Cafe Vue, but this electric stuff shows how Bill isn't content to play the same thing forever. I never heard the Double it album cuts until tonight, but love them. He and Holdsworth do have similarities during this period IMO, but I agree, Bill has a somewhat ballsier, earthier sound. "Return" is very different from things he recorded during the 80's.
He does have a little bit of Andy Summers (Police) chord voicings and flanger sound. I did notice that myself, when I first heard of it, but I don't think it is a bad thing, although the phrasing is a bit along the style of Allan Holdsworth, and that's definitely not a bad thing. This is a classic album, a must-have for any fusion fans, like myself. I've been loving it ever since 1986.
Mr. Connors has a spanish kind of vibe, more flamenco-like. If you were to play these same licks via acoustic guitar it sounds more like it leans more towards that vain. I do agree on the Alan Holdsworth setup sounding familiar with the whole trio and arrangement though. Both players use different harmonies from what I am hear when listening to both. Alan is much more dissonant and leans towards more sax and 'out there' stuff, Bill plays more in the changes but uses more flamenco-based phrases, and puts emphasis on blues here and there. I believe many say they sound familiar because both are influenced by a horn player (ie.Coltrane) and the legato technique. I am no musicologist or anything, just a guy who plays both bass and guitar and loves music. I prefer Bill Connors because he speaks more and his album 'Step it' to me is the most grounded. The rest are more show off'ish to me. Just my two cents :)
This is beautiful playing. I guess it sounds enough like Holdsworth's style to initially make me wonder if it is Holdsworth, but then say, 'Nah', and try to figure out who the hell it is, and why I never heard of him before today?!
Well, in Bill's defense, i can say this is previous to Metal Fatigue.
Huh. I was just having the thought about definitely having heard many guitarist in my life that were influenced by Holdsworth, before actually coming across Alan himself, I was thinking people instantly calling them "cheap imitations" but I equally admire their tone/voicings/phrasing. First time hearing this song, was thinking exactly of Metal Fatigue, embarrassingly not knowing much else to compare it to.
Listen to this man with return to forever !
Something about his playing reminds me of Eric Johnson
Just watched an interview with him on Rick beato's channel and he mentioned him! That's why I'm here lol
@@benjaminwoodrowmusic6070 same here!
Bill Connors is one of Eric Johnson's early and most important influences
yeah. it was the '80's ie the "Clean tone w/chorus/Dimension D effect" for chords ad the "flutey high gain tone with legato phrasing" for leads. Holdsworth pioneered the sound and style, so it's natural Bill would pick some of it up, as I'm sure everybody did at the time. Just like the earlier raw McLoughlin styles of the early '70's that everybody was influnced by at that time.
2020 but this music really nice
GW: Numerous players have taken unmistakable elements of your style - vibrato-arm techniques like slurring into notes or flying them away by shaking them sharp, volume swells and your general linear concept - and assimilated them to where they've become staples in both rock and jazz-rock. Bill Connors, who's a wonderful player, leaps to mind. Does your influence frustrate or disturb you in any way?
HOLDSWORTH: It doesn't frustrate me at all, but it would frustrate me if I were them, because it's a waste of time. I mean, Bill Connors was, to me, an example of someone who had a very unique style. I think I first heard him on a Stanley Clarke album I loved, and on that album Bill sounded like Bill Connors. Now it's like ... I don't know. It makes me realize how fickle and unimportant a thing style is. It's interesting how something like that can push that person who's been imitated into a direction they might not otherwise have gone. For example, when people start to pick up on my things, it makes me realize how superficial those things are, and that makes me move forward. You realize, "Oh, that must have been so meaningless that it was just like a face panel from 1980," something that everybody had. Something else comes out and you realize it's just not an important thing at all. So when I hear people playing not just like me, but like, say Bill Connors used to play i t's positive inasmuch as it might move me towards something else. If someone else can't take the time to find it. I'm sure gonna look.. hard. 😲
Absolutely!!! I saw/heard Return to Forever when Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy was issued, and I'd never heard such guitar work. Tho what I hear here sounds a bit mechanical - like John McLaughlin. Apologies, I was not familiar with Allan Holdsworth or Soft Machine, tho what I've heard on UA-cam from him since reading this thread reminds me of McLaughlin.
this is awesome sauce.
wow.. sounds a lot like allan. gonna check this album asap! :D
thanks!
@placidian
Check out Chick Corea's original Return To Forever lineup.
Bill tends to stay more in the pocket than Allan.Don't get me wrong, I like both players but I really dig Bill's groove and his use of harmony.
...there is no 1st, 2nd, 3rd at this level. It's allll good:)
@stratoleft
I hear some similarities in the tone/effects at times but I agree there are some distinct difference in phrasing. I kinda wish Allan would groove more like Bill does at times. It doesn't always have to be about how insanely complicated or high speed something can be, to have my ear tuned to it. When they go into 5 (1:00-1:11), that is solid groove right there, with everyone's leaving spaces for each others' sounds to breathe, especially Tom's which mostly underneath..
Great, I'm officially a fan of this guy now,besides the Holdsworth stylistic similarities -in his soloing/voicings , I also hear a Police/Andy Summers vibe on some of that rockier beat + arpeggiated guit. w/ clean sound transition around 3:50 min.
Goooooood!
#OdedFriedGaon #OdedMusic #Audioded
Listen to Theme to the Guardian (1974, ECM) to know what Bill Connors was really capable of doing, or in Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy (1973, with RtF) before Allan was a big name.
I don't think Connors made such a vast and important career as Holdsworth though, and had such a distinguished style.
please let me know when you upload something, thanks,, but you can hear the individual notes on this, when I listen to old rt, forever,, I always wonder,,do alot of guitarists woodshed with so many special effects they can not even tell what notes they are playing,
Yeah, Holdsworth is in the field of fusion much alike McLaughlin. I really like both, McLaughling for his improvisation skills within Miles Davis band and his acoustic work in Shakti which is godlike for me. Holdsworth has a tone that is just Holdsworth's tone, especially heard on Gazeuse! by Gong or Enigmatic Ocean by Jean-Luc Ponty, two great jazz late 70s fusion.
John Goodsall is also very much in the league of these guys, just listen to Brand X's Unorthodox Behaviour.
I love this stuff! What year did this come out?
@WELLBRAN I saw Al with RTF last June and think Al's a bit stale by now. I heard all the same tricks in 1974. Bill keeps on evolving into new territories. Police? Men at Work?!? Turn your ears on, I think they died. (response to GordonS2)
@VortexProducer
'meatier' is a great way to describe it!
Holdsworth + The Police
yessssssssss
まるでアラン・ホールズワースですね。
驚きました！
Beautiful composition , played masterfully, may i sugest ,for those that do not know, Fire Merchants, featuring John Goodsall, Doug Lunn and Chester Thompson (ua-cam.com/video/tjCLsg7DaiI/v-deo.html) which is another 3 piece band that came out in the mid 1980s around the same time Connors was releasing his electric albums.
@ChaiVat Maybe Al just sounds like Bill Connors?
Stale? Well I think al has been riding on his past reputation for uite awhile I hate that every album He makes there is the Traditional oldie tacked on to most Albums, but He is still a great player
@bonyplan Allan Holdsworth..and no, Bill sounds like Bill Connors and Allan sounds like Allan ;-)
Sounds more like Andy Summers from The Police.
If you like this type of music you should google Mark Swearingen Jazz Guitar utube
Call the Police!
I have this solo transcribed......If you interested. Let me know
mZanitheman0806 i am intersted in the tab
Give me your e-mail address and i'll send it to you...........Happy New Year
mZanitheman0806 thanks man, Happy new year to you from Honduras....
ok....take care
No, sounds like Alan Hodlsword.
Tom and Dawe, is my favorite.
"Devil take the copymost"
Eventually he gave up trying to rip Holdsy and went back to doing more of his own thing.
Yet, this Connors record came out in 1984, while Allan's Metal Fatigue came out in 1985! Prescience?
@@tiluriso Allan was playing Devil take the Hindmost on his '84 tours before he recorded it.
@@Fontsman You think Bill might caught one of Allan's shows on the '84 tour and copped the solos's style?
It's possible. Allan had been perfecting his legato since '77. The first IOU album dates from '82. Connors played in a completely different way in RTF. Closer to McLaughlin. It's clear on listening to Connors that he must have studied Holdsworth's methods. Allan very politely said he preferred Connors when he sounded like Bill Connors.
@@Fontsman OK fair enough, but Connors did play in a much more legato articulated style of his own back in '73 w/ RTF when compared to Johnny Mac's more staccato, pick-every-note approach. Sure JM's playing was an influence overall, since Mahavishnu's first album dates from 1971 and was a pretty unprecedented musical affair , but Bill had used some sweep picking passages and many long tones, features which were/are alien to Johnny Mac's style. There is how ever a guy who is little known and who never got the recognition he fully deserved due to his low key personality and personal problems and who might have, unbeknownst to most, been and early influence on Allan's - His name was Pete 'Ollie' Halsall and he fist appeared in 1971 as guitarist for British 'Rock N Soul' band Patto. If not an actual influence on AH, Halsall developed an independent, similar approach as far as phrasing went. Check him out if you have a chance (and if you already know of Halsall, you know about this).
But after IOU. This is definitely Holdsworth influenced. No one could buy Connor's supporters story that it isn't. Holdsworth invented this chordal style AND this soloing style on guitar. Connors does a great job on the chordal aspect though. Very very good. The soloing is not quite up to Holdsworthian standards.
@flowerdrop1 Alex Lifeson=good but very "overrated"
Alex Lifeson.. PAINFULLY UNDERRATED
At one time Connors had an original sound and style especially in Return to Forever. But this just a poor pastiche of Allan's work. I never understood why Connors went down this road as Allan is the master.
I don't care what anybody says. This sounds just like Allan Holdsworth through half the song.
A bad Allan Holdsworth that is!
pleximanic
no, this is great in it's own way even tho of course going after allan's sound. I used to hate these connors albums after being big into allan in 80s+90s but eventually got sick of allans music and sounds, then only a couple years ago gave connors a fair shake and actually like his take on allans style better than allans himself! bills is more earthy relatable upbeat energetic and blues tinged...basically more "american" sounding than allans, which makes sense. So it funny how i loved allan and didnt like bills 80s albums, now its the reverse! always like bill in 70s tho. allans 70s i still like as well.
Yet this record came out in 1984, while AH's 'Metal Fatigue' came out in 1985.
tiluriso ...and AH's IOU album was released in 1982. So what's your point?
The sounds are very similar, but they play like different PEOPLE. The writing and improvisational note choices are very different. It seems a pity that because of the superficial similarities, Bill was always in the shadow of Allan. Both of these guys contributed tremendously to my own musical development, and I owe them a debt I could never repay!