Understanding Steering Geometry - Bump Steer, Drag Link Flip and Finding the Right Angles
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2024
- Have you considered a drag link flip or track bar relocation and wondered what it's all about? or maybe you've wondered why your steering wheel jerks over bumps? This video helps understand and correct Bump Steer and the concepts that go into setting up your steering geometry.
** THIS IS AN EDUCATIONAL VIDEO, not a How-To Install **
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Love the Channel and the video, keep 'em coming!
I have the same draglink & trackbar bracket from rubicon ex. Def think I have the issue your talking abt. Going to give this a shot, all makes sense Thx!
Omg I think you just solved my drunk driver experience! Roads where I live are so broken that I’m driving down the road and ping ponging in the lane like a drunk driver! I’ve upgraded all the steering components to teraflex HD parts and got the adjustable steering stabilizer from teraflex and I’ve had it on firm and even on firm setting my steering wheel steel does that jerk with Jeep movement on road bumps! Definitely going to get and install this to hopefully fix my jeeps drunk driver experience!
Awesome!!! Did you do their Flip Kit option on the drag link? If so, then yes the raised track bar bracket (axle side) is a must with flips.
Platinum Off Road didn’t know teraflex did that option. Might have overlooked it or saw it but didn’t know what it meant but I do now. 👍🏻
GREAT VIDEO..!!
THNK YOU SO MUCH. YOU SOLVE ALL MY JK GEOMETRY PROBLEMS. 🙏🏼
Thanks for the video. Headache is gone!!
My rig pulls to the right under braking with all new braking components, and now i know why, thank you!
Hope this helps to resolve things for you!
Thank for the video, I was going crazy trying to fix my steering wheel.
Glad it helped Darian!
Great representation of how to adjust your steering on lifted JK. Question, apart from that little bump how has your steering felt? Thanks
Great video. Well said , and wonderful explanation
Thanks so much!
Thank you for a clear and informative video...
Thank you for the support and feedback!
It's been 3 months since I installed my Rubicon Express tie rod and drag link. the Rubicon Express track bar was put on at the beginning of the year. I haven't even watched your video yet and I'm already getting excited that I might finally solved my issue. My Jeep is all over the road since my drag link and tie rod install
First off thanks for finding us and checking out the video! Second, how did things go? Were you able to find resolution or insight to a potential issue?
@@PlatinumOffRoad it is at a four-wheel drive shop right now. I was supposed to hear from them Monday. I bought the traction bar bracket before I took it to them so they could install it. I have high hopes
@@clintmcjeepjunkie820 How did it turn out? Did it fix your issue?
@@clintmcjeepjunkie820 how did it go?
@@86gtocar after the drop bracket install and an alignment it drives great
Very helpful, thanks.
Great video and helpful explanation
Thank you for the support!
Nice job man and information thanks for posting it
Thank you for the feedback and support!
I find it funny, I had the same problem with a flipped drag link. I took it to many shops and no one could figure out the geometry was off. I actually figured it out when I crawled under there and went over everything I replaced to realize my trackbar and draglink where no longer parallel. With only a 2.5" lift it made more sense to unflip my draglink. I ordered a new outer end thankfully my knuckle wasn't drilled out (I had the no drill flip from Steer Smarts by Yeti. It definitely fixed the problem.
You are absolutely right!! Typically flips are most beneficial when approaching that 4" lift range and above. Surprisingly many shops have come to life during the economic prosperity, but how many actually deserve your business is the real test. We hear horror stories that many new clients have come to us after a few local shops scratched their heads for weeks and only made the Jeeps worst. Good job on the correction Nonya!!!!
I have a 2 1/2 lift the draglink, trackbar and everything is basically new but factory parts. Would i need to get the flipped draglink?? I still have bad bump steer and no shops in my area can figure it out. I’ve been dealing with this problem for a year.
@Reality-wb8of the DL, and TB need to be made to accommodate the lift. Stock OEM parts are not ideal
Also have you replaced the Steering Stabilizer?
@@nonya6281 I replaced the stabilizer twice so you guys are right with DL & TB. I can see that they are not parallel so I’ll need to get a new flipped DL & TB.
Thank you 🙏🏽
This video helped me fix my jeep. Thank you
Super happy to hear!!! That's exactly why we established this channel!
That explains an issue mine has. Thank you!
Glad to help!
Learning so much from your videos! I've just subscribed. I've noticed a little shimmy on the front passenger side under hard breaking from high speed. i thought it was the beginnings of death wobble but now I'm thinking drag link and track bar alignment. (?)
Thanks for the support! So if it's the braking shake you described (especially if it's only during rapid braking), the front rotors need turned and some fresh pads to go along with that resurfacing.
Steering geometry issues will be a hard shifting of the steering wheel when hitting a bump or rapid braking. This steering wheel shift will be directly related and associated with the frames positioning to the axle. In other words, the axle experiences a bump - it moves towards the frame... if you slam on the brakes, your frame drops down towards the axle. These will be one or two major changes in the frame to axle positioning; therefore your steering wheel will not shimmy or shake at this time. It will merely shift as the frame and axle positioning changes.
Nice video,i have the same problem on my rubicon,naw i must install relocation bracket.Wen i mount the 3" list kit on my Jeep ( BDS 3" LIFT KIT) i have install from this kit relocation
Thank you..great video
Thank you for your support and feedback!
Very helpful
What size lift is on that jeep. I have a 3.5" on mine and I've purchased the metalcloak flip kit. Not installed yet and I'm finding out I need more lift to justify the flip kit. I'm thinking the more level my track bar and drag link the better but they say no.
Can you shine some light on this please
Thanks for this, I have bump steer, and I did a panhard drop bracket, but didn't flip the steering rod..
If you did the frame side drop, and now planning to flip the drag link (passenger side) .. you won't get the improvement as much as returning the frame same to factory and raising the axle side mount for the track bar (panhard) to best align with the drag link flip. Pretty much what spurred me to make this exact video. My situation in this video was from that experience, and this video shows how I corrected it.
Thank you sensei
I clicked the thumbs up but didn’t like the number. So I decided to comment instead. Great perfect video!
Thanks for this video. What track bar relocation bracket did you use?
Synergy weld on kit for the axle and the Rubicon Express was the frame side that we ended up merely keeping on for added support to the factory position. The Synergy was the one that we actually used for geometry function.
I’ve got a 4 inch lift with trackbar relocation bracket on the passenger side and drop down pitman arm. Just ordered the Barnes 4WD tie rod bar as well as their flip kit for the drag. Was about to install both this weekend but after watching your video I’m a lil lost . What would you suggest I do in regards to the setup I though that by just flipping the drag link I would have better angles.
Hey sorry for the late discovery. So to flip on the knuckle side and keep the pitman, along with the existing axle side relocation bracket, spells disaster. Kill the axle side bracket and get a new weld on that raises the track bar to match up with the drag link flip. Remove the pitman arm and go back with factory and it will drive like a dream.
Thanks
I got a 99 suburban SAS king pin 60 with a 350sbc might do a boosted 454 on 40s
Do u need a track back with leafs?
Have to notch the frame, or put bigger stops in or the drag link hits the frame when articulate the suspension.
Question can you give any idea , the problem i have is that my steering get off center all the time i go off roding , i been taling my jeep to alliment and is ok just the steering any idea thanks for any info and be safe
We noticed with lower grade drag links and especially factory units, that this happens pretty much every time. Please NOTE, there are many theories out there!
Here's our throw at it based on experience, measurements and quality check to many of our clients' and personal rigs:
There's three key moving parts that could initially allow for displacement - two ends of the drag link and the gear box (if you wheel pretty hard). As the ends wear down, they start off needing excessive force to make them a new home or slop, but when doing on-road driving they stay in place pretty well wherever they rest. I've noticed higher end drag links won't do this as much, so we can certainly assume it's commonly somewhere in the ends. The gear box - I've noticed on a few gear boxes that we tightened up on the adjustment shaft, they tend to stay straighter after a day of abuse. Does this mean the movement is pinned to the gear box? Other possibility!
Other theories are changed caster angles if a spring comes out of place, or bent components such as a tie rod, drag link, or even track bar. Track bars can also shift within their bolted position and even a single millimeter and offset a steering wheel. If this is the case get a slightly larger diameter bolt at the end(s) of the track bar.. you'd be amazed at how much room OE bolts leave in that track bar connection. We also have proven in house that Jeeps with all heim joints control arms like RockKrawler and many others with soft internal heims, have seen the steering wheel shift on every trip out too. If you lay under a Jeep with such suspension, you will see how much the arm ends allow for movement within themselves as a friend gets on and off the brakes. (Don't lay directly under the Jeep! Lol) These joints need CONSTANT maintenance and eventually get so dry and worn out, caster angles change with even heavy road bumps.
Hope this helps and sorry we cannot say "This is exactly the problem!!" With proven evidence for every Jeep we've seen this on.
I thought as long as the lines are parallel (same angle) then its good, never heard that you need to line them up height wise. Also flatter angle is better, so you could try dropping the trac bar back to the lower mount and adding a drop pitman arm as long as the drop is the same amount, which should get them both nice and flat
The whole parallel rule is true... to a degree. The TJ and XJ steering used a Y-link system. In these cases, yes all we can do is parallel them. The JKs moved to the full tie rod cross over and provided a wider axle and frame.. allowing us to even more perfect the geometry changes of a lifted Jeep. To run by the whole parallel rule is good if that's all you can do with the Jeep, however to even more greatly improve the ride quality... align the two on the same plane and just experience the difference. It's nothing I try and sell or convince to folks. The proof is in the pudding per se and yes there is a major gain in ride control and quality when aligning the planes vs just merely getting them to run parallel. Draw it out on paper with a protractor and find the conflicting radius with the parallel setup... then do the same with a setup that aligns the planes and you'll see it plain as day.
@@PlatinumOffRoad
Where did you find the waterfall in the opening scene?
@@PlatinumOffRoad "JK messed it up so now we have to do more work" 🤪
I have a JK sport unlimited. I plan on doing a 2.5" lift. Will I need to do a drag link flip on it? Or at what point do you start saying that the flip kit is required?
No need for a flip. When you jump into the 4"+ levels is when you really start to notice the need.
Can someone tell me the name and brand of that bumper?
What size still hit did you use to drill the knuckle? Did you need a tapper?
The Rubicon Express kit just requires a hole to be drilled on the knuckle side... Believe it's a 7/8". They supply a tapered insert that expands as you tighten down on the nut. As for the pitman arm side, it does require a tapered drill that we do by hand. It's not fun by all means. It's to alow the larger drag link end to go deeper into the pitman arm hole and the castle nut to accept the cotter pin. I know the earlier instructions mentioned this step and the exact tapered drill to get. The more recent instructions may claim it works without having to open up the pitman arm hole, but just from our experience, we still have to bore it out a little.
What is the length difference between the two bars
I'm going thru the same thing with my 94 yj, I have no tracbar (leaf spring), but the drag link portion,would that be the same for a YJ? I did a 3.5" lift but drag link is at harsher angle then what's here
Harsh angle drag links will inevitably have bumpsteer. That's just the radius that it will flow through. At some point you need to do a drag link flip, or dropped pitman arm. It just depends on what is out there for the model Jeep. If you don't have a track bar, due to the leafs, then a QUALITY dropped pitman will do you well.
I’m currently doing a 3.5” lift. The lift has a pitman drop. Would you suggest not using it and just using the bracket and do a flip kit?
Never put a dropped pitman on a crossover drag link system. The loss of strength and failure to truly tend to geometry changes, is a complete waste of time and money. We have a pile of dropped pitmans we've removed when correcting steering geometry.
Nise
Is this what helps the loose feeling, like my jeep is going to jump out of the lane
Depending on how much lift you have and geometry of the items. Many times lift kits come with brackets and steering correction components and actually complicate matters (....ie: Rough Country)
Get a reclaim or rivet cutting tip and you can cut closer than you did with your grinder with a torch.
Maybe a stupid question but I see all 3 lines parallel... I understand that it helped the steer bump... but I cant understand why.... its because green is closer to yellow?
Good question!
So at one point many years back, Jeep builders always said to focus on making drag link and track bar parallel, but if you imagine their point of pivot and the radius each one will follow.. that is the cause for bumpsteer. Two parallel lines with different mounting points and different lengths, will follow conflicting radius flows.. which is still bumpsteer. It's ideal to have the track bar and drag link mount *exactly* at the same point or plane on each end. Due to how everything is located under the Jeep, that's impossible.. the best set up system will have a track bar that's the same length of the drag link and mounted on the same horizontal plane at each end. Many cases the track bar has to be set outside of the frame for this length to be achieved. Most fabricated race rigs will do this if you look closely. Daily street rigs, not too often.
I have a 2 1/2 lift but every thing else is new but still factory track bar, draglink and stuff. Would I need a flipped draglink. I have bad bump steering it’s all over and a floating feel when hitting bumps or cracks in road.
Please help I’ve been dealing with this problem for about a year and no shops in my area can figure it out.
What model Jeep are you dealing with?
Typically, you won't flip the drag link and Rais the track bar's position until over 4" of lift on a JK. The JL's won't need them till closer to 5"+. The JL axles are just a tad wider, and this provides a wider radius angle that the axle will follow through during a bump.
If you're not far from north Texas, bring it to us. We actually get about a dozen or more Jeeps each year, hauled in to see us each year, all finding us from UA-cam and expressing your exact frustration with local shops. There is other factors to be considered, but I'd have to see the Jeep and feel what it's doing.
@@PlatinumOffRoad thanks for replying back. 2014 sport wrangler 2 door very basic I have roll up windows. Found out my caster was off by 2 degrees so I installed control arm relocation brackets and caster is at 5 degrees now and WAY BETTER, I’ll replace all my bushings but by control arms next year. I was told I might need longer sway bars cause of the 2.5 lift 🤷🏽♂️ oh and adjustment shocks for a smoother ride. Any other suggestions for the rear end cause that still feels loose, floaty, bumpy?? I have never shit driven my jeep it’s just a pimp jeep has 182,000km around 150,000 miles
I do have 22x10 rims
Roughly every half turn of the steering wheel is an inch of side to side axel movement.
I don't think your rear axel has much to with it at all. Only as far as a bump to the rears will lift the frame and change the momentum load on the front axel. Equal but opposite force as the frame rotates around the center of gravity.
Unless I misunderstood what you were saying. Either way, good job straightening out your suspension issue;)
Correct... this video is all about the front geometry. A rear axle hitting a bump will cause frontal load again to a minor degree, but yes the video was ultimately about getting front steering and drag link geometries in line!
Must have had a Buy 1, Get 9 free sale on jack stands !! 😁
Years of fab work leads to having a ton of jack stands in all sizes. 🤷🏽♂️
Can we get some subaru videos on here? Might subscribe then
You know what Jano! We have a Subi nut in our crew... I don't see why not! Any topic or idea?
Thank you for the video. I have a 2012 JKU, getting ready to put on Bilstein 5100 shocks and Icon dual rate coil springs, 3" on the front 2" on the back with 33" tires, front and rear steel bumpers, which on the front and full-size spare on the back, it's too heavy for my current shocks and springs...hoping this will improve the ride a bit without putting on an adjustable front track bar or lower control arms, only time will tell.
At a minimum, run the Fox 2.0 Performance. Bilstein set you mentioned are a longer version of factory. Many shops sell them because they're longer for the lift and a step up from the super cheap and squishy soft base line shocks out there. Not to mention an easier sale, because the price... but I can not tell you how many sets of the Bilstein 5100 we rip off for being a very soft and unstable ride... especially with the added weight of mods, over stock. Trust me. Spend the extra money and get the Fox Performance.. come back and thank me later!
Drag link and track bar are supposed be mounted on the same plane on the axle. Drag link and tie rod should be parallel.
Oh good, another thing I have to buy that kits never include. I'm really starting to HATE my Jeep.
Hahaha yeah, after building Jeeps for nearly 2 decades... I've learned "kits" have the primary items, and supplementary pieces to address other needs, but not actually fulfilling those needs. WHY? Because then the complete and functional kit, would be outrageously priced and scare off many potential sales. So manufacturers give you JUST enough to survive, be happy, but yet want more. It's all about sales!
When we line up a build, I foretell all these actual NEEDS and keep the whole process transparent.
Correct but your ass backwards. Frame doesn’t go up when hitting bump and pull pitman arm in. Axle goes up when hitting bump and it gets pushed. Also track bar and drag link need to be at equal pivot points relative to height. They were already parallel.
Truth. And frame rebounds over each bump. Ultimately both have a shared relationship in the movement. Thats why the steering will actually get pushed and pulled; steering wheel left and right.
Looks to me like they simply bent the track bar incorrectly. Had it been strait it looks like it would’ve paralleled perfectly with the drag link. You can’t ever go wrong with synergy products as they are always thoroughly thought out. I would’ve just used a regular crossover kit myself.. but had I had something like this I think I’d remove that odd trackbar and just use a more traditional singe bend bar that’s been proven to work for 50 years lol. Looks like some engineer was paid to reinvent the wheel here and make something that looks different for a sales pitch that just doesn’t make any sense to anyone who understands steering geometry.
Basic geometry is at play with any steering setup. Not sure where a design of track bar or drag link has any point in the matter of a Point A to Point B concept. The conflicting radius path of the track bar and the drag link is what causes bumpsteer. The track bar is frame mounted which means it will dominate the battle between the two radius. The steering will have to conform to the drag link radius and ultimately move all steering linkage (bumpsteer). It has nothing to do with a product having no bends, one bend or five bends.. it's all about the radius path. You can take a straight component and a s-curve component, mount them in the exact positions and get the exact same result because you never corrected the radius path. This video was focused on fixing bumpsteer by repositioning the radius paths through the product mounting points = Basic geometry. Feel free to use whatever product you want or kit.. in the end basic geometry is either set up to the best possible positions for the vehicle or its not. Bumpsteer will exist, or it will not. We regularly fix it with a variety of brands and designs by means of this information and that's how I know the basic geometry in this tutorial video works.
Great video except for the intro made me have to pee.
😳😳🙄🙄😥🤔🤔😴😴😴🤔🤔😴😴😴
Lol understandable. Definitely meant to explain things more than a How-To. We tried to give notice to that in the description, but I highly doubt many people read that anyways. If you've experienced any issues with a drag link flip or track bar relocation, the content may be more valuable.
@@PlatinumOffRoad yes I actually learned from it. Some people just dont appreciate learning or haven't needed to learn it yet
Looked negligible
Jeeps are made like junk buy one new and have to put $4,000 i to it to drive safely
No offense...but to do a video on steering geometry while having two stabilizers is a bit ridiculous.
Ha... non taken! And here's why: I know that steering stabilizers have their place and often the need to reduce road dampening comes with other geometry factors outside of any steering geometry mentioned in this video. But since you brought it up.. steering dampeners are helpful when leverage is increased against the steering system (ie: wheel offset or use of wheel spacers). Road bumps become more erratic as you increase pull or leverage on the steering. If you hit a bump at 70mph while running a wheel with positive offset, the vehicle handles that bump completely different than someone running wheels with minor negative offset (-6mm or -12mm) and even more contrast handling of an even extreme neg. offset wheel such as a -32mm beadlock or running 1.5" wheel spacers. Try all these various wheel combos out on the same exact Jeep with the same stabilizer(s) and you will see what I'm talking about. I build Jeeps with all different arrangements of wheel offsets and steering stabilizers and have had enough experience to make these statements as proven results
Stabilizers help reduce the acute force on the steering components and overall system... nothing to affect geometry... and especially geometry mentioned in this video. Not sure why they were even brought up...? The Jeep at the time of the video had -6mm offset wheels AND 1.5" wheel spacers. After tossing the spacers and moving to a -12mm wheel, the dual stabilizers came off and back to a single if that makes you feel better.. again it's all based on resistance and what each Jeep needs... to bicker over a dual kit is kind of like ridiculing someone running a Fox ATS stabilizer because it truly adds more resistance to combat acute road bump forces. They (stabilizers of any or all sorts) do work when you have a need for them based on the above reasons.
LMAO good one Russell! Did you even think before writing that attempt to show out? While Platinum already summed it up with the purpose of any stabilizer, the Jeep world is full of geniuses with more opinions than sense and speak without reasoning first. Im sure youre the guy at the Jeep meets trashing another rigs while your $40 rock lights are flashing away at the top of your buddy's 285s squeezed under his XJ that you just stacked on! SMH Cool guy!!
the audio is terrible