Korean Orthodox here. I was a Buddhist most of my life until the Lord came to me and opened my eyes. God bless my Christian brothers and sisters ☦️☦️☦️
Online arguments can be so frustratingly unfruitful. Pride dominates and the truth gets pushed aside. Even if I am right, I do a disservice to the truth, getting puffed up and trying to prove myself right. May God grant us all the humility to allow the Light of the Truth to enlighten our darkness. Glory to Jesus Christ.
Absolutely agree. They do no service to the souls of my brothers and sisters. Plus they aren’t likely to change the opinion of whomever is arguing. Sincere debates are almost never present online.
Well if you are here conversing with people to test your faith or prove you are right you are in the wrong place for motive. I believe our motive for as Orthodox should be to spread the truth. We put out the info. I don’t care if a half a present of people that read my comments have humility and act on them. And I do get people who find me again and thank me for my comments because it made them stop and think.
@@katiek.8808 Well I should pray for more tact and humility with responses. That’s wonderful to hear about your getting such positive feedback from your speaking the truth in love.
this is what real christianity looks like. it's the ancient perserved apostolic faith. unchanged and uncorrupted since the great schism. no purgatory, no paying away for your sins, no tithes, accurate biblical canon. icons are legit if you know anything about history. so funny how protestants pick and choose orthodox church fathers but don't agree with anything else they believed in. even the orthodox metaphysics regarding the trinity is the most coherent.
Different jurisdictions have different rules--the OCA encourages tithing, for example, while some churches have a dues structure, and others may be supported by the state. Ultimately the church building needs to be built and maintained, the priest and any staff need to be able to support their families, etc.
Orthodoxy is not ancient. It’s very old but it has never disappeared and therefore isn’t technically ancient and therefore can’t be known through archeology or historical Scholarship alone without also understanding what it is today, which is precisely what it has always been, the Church of the Apostles that has remained compliant to the authority of the Holy Spirit since Pentecost. The main objection of Protestantism is that the Apostolic Church was lost, ceased to exist, “ancient” and must be restored through Scholarship and their interpretation, pick the interpreter, Calvin, Luther….Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, of Scripture. So to call the Church ancient kind of plays into their hands. I prefer the Church from Antiquity.
As a Protestant i saw how church Protestant church grows so fast it is also because of constantly offering so the church is able to use the money to do more ministry and share the gospel by holding some events. Purely just sharing my view
Posting again as my first post disappeared! But thank you for having Father Borjan discuss these things with you. He is my own Spiritual Father and Parish Priest. God has done a work in our midst and continues to do so. The Parish was nearly going to be closed, with only a few elderly people in attendance. But The Holy Spirit had other plans, and today our number grows and grows thanks be to God and the intercession of the Theotokos! We welcome all for a visit and as Father Borjan said, we welcome all questions. Come with good will in your heart and seek earnestly and may the God of all comfort show you the Truth which was once a hidden gem here in the US, but is now being discovered by a great many souls. The Ark of Salvation is open to those souls who seek God. Glory to God!
Thank you for sharing about Holy Orthodoxy. The other big thing to realize with icons and idolatry, is that, historically speaking, idolatry is actually a well defined practice with specific ceremonies and specific beliefs surrounding them. That is, ancient people built idols, but they were not stupid; they knew that the idol in and of itself was not a god. Instead, they had a specific ceremony for the idol to breathe in their god/spirit. Once the spirit inhabited the idol, the people would then "take care of" the god by giving it food offerings and such, and then they expected that in response to their hospitality, the spirit would then be favorable towards them. So, when God prohibits idolatry, He is not only prohibiting the worship of other gods, but He is also prohibiting His people to try and worship Him in this way. That is why it is significant when Solomon says "the heavens of heavens cannot contain You, how much less this house" (1 Kings 8:27) But, what's also significant to mention is that, those spirits or gods that idolatry seeks to have inhabit their idols, are actually fallen angels, or demons (as it says in the Psalms or by St. Paul in Corinthians). So, idolatry is dangerous because it's actually real, or at least dealing with real demons. But, this is also why it doesn't work in the way the idolaters intend it to (i.e. since they're dealing with demons, instead of trapping the demon and getting it to do what they want, the demon instead inhabits them and creates chaos). Anyway, if that in and of itself doesn't clearly distinguish idolatry from icons, then perhaps it might help to realize that even pagan temples had icons which were clearly distinguished from their idols. In other words, they are historically two very different things and served very different functions; there is no way to get around that fact. Having that said, perhaps the most important thing to distinguish icons from idolatry is that God Himself commands iconography in the Tabernacle and Temple (Exodus 25:18-20, 26:1, 36:35; 1 Kings 6:23-36), which is significant, because Orthodox temples are the fulfillment of the Jerusalem temple and are the local manifestation of it where the fullness of the church in that place comes together to worship in spirit and truth. The Icons of the Tabernacle and Temple were, under the Old Covenant, only depictions of the angels in heaven, but they are fulfilled in the New Covenant because Christ has defeated death and plundered hades, so now all the saints in Christ dwell alongside the angels (in other words, depicting the saints in icons is a confession of salvation/Christ's victory). And just as the Tabernacle and Temple were earthly manifestations of the Heavenly Temple (Wisdom 9:8; Malachi 1:11; John 4:21-24; Hebrews 8:1-5, 9:11-14, 10:22-24, 13:10-15), so too are Orthodox Temples and the Divine Liturgy a manifestation of the heavenly liturgy (as depicted in the Book of Revelation for example - Revelation 1:10, 4:1-5:14, 7:9-17, 11:15-19, 19:1-10). Icons are therefore not only windows into heaven, but a confession that heaven and earth come together in the Divine Liturgy where we mystically worship alongside the angels and saints (even the Lutheran liturgy confesses this when they say "therefore with angels and archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify Your glorious name, evermore praising You and saying... Holy, Holy Holy..."). If that wasn't enough, keep in mind that even ancient Judaism had iconography (look up the Dura-Europo's synagogue), which shows once again that it was Judaism and everyone else who changed, where as Orthodoxy has remained the same. Veneration (showing honor, love, and respect) is just what Christians do. Not only do we do it to each other since we are all made in the image of God, but even in Protestantism it is done to the Bible by being bound in the finest leathers with gilded pages, etc. Veneration takes many forms. I know it's a struggle for the west and Protestantism because our culture is so far removed from Biblical culture, and that this is also in reaction to abuses of Rome, but for anyone turned off of Orthodoxy because of Icons, keep exploring; you'll be happy that you did. I know the intercessions of the saints might be another stumbling block for you, but we'll leave that for another time (although, hint: if you can understand what the Divine Council is, you will begin to see how that works as well [combine that with Ch. 9 in "The Lord of Spirits" book, and it should all click... at least, that's what did it for me).
Great conversation. Hope you enjoyed your first Divine Liturgy, there's nothing like it! Maybe you're already planning on going again, but some good advice I heard is to commit to attending at least 3 - 5 Liturgies. That first time it's just so much and often extremely foreign, particularly for Westerners and Protestants. Going a few times allows you to get a better feel for all that's going on. It's incredible rich and theologically full.
Well, yesterday I spoke to a orthodox priest and he told me, that anyone, who says I am the only one and this claim, isn't worth listening to. We shouldn't think, that God is so small and is so poor, that he has only one way of worship. If it ain't against scripture, don't be so haste to claim these things...
I grew up in Protestant churches, but the first time I went to an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy was the first time I became a Christian. I've been trying to be Christian all my life, but the Protestant church constantly turned me Agnostic. Fifty years of disappointment. I finally found the Holy Spirit. If you've never been to an Orthodox Divine liturgy, you are cheating yourself of something really special.
I recognize this Church! My Parish visited them for Vespers on the way up to Jordanville Monastery. The Priest was wonderful and Church beautiful! I recognize the unique white iconostasis, and the pews with the gold plates are familiar too. Wonderful little Serbian Orthodox Church
Is the interviewer nervous? The Old Testament idol text had to due with a graven image, something worshipped. Orthodox don’t worship icons, we worship God. Protestants are confused. Images aren’t bad, graven images are.
@@synthesaurusNot true, some take veneration very seriously with elaborate rituals before Icons but no one believes that the actual essence of God resides inside an Icon. I don’t think even Catholics believe that concerning their religious statuary.
@@kevinfarrell9678 you need to visit any slavic orthodox nation. Often some icons are “revered” for their special ability to ward off particular maladies etc. Many cases when a stain is taken as an icon and a shrine quickly is built with endless stream of “pilgrims”
6:31 Great points. SO many good examples to counter the Protestant accusation of idol worship. I was going to mention some of those same scriptures if Father hadn’t. As a Protestant I had a different lens I was looking through, and even though I had read all those passages multiples times, I still had this iconoclast perspective because I didn’t connect the dots, or I listened to other iconoclasts rather than the scriptures and those who have been in the True Church since it’s inception. You can also look at history to see this in practice by faithful Christians. As an Orthodox Christian now, it seems so silly that I would accuse people of being idolatrous who were fighting against paganism and idolatry and even being martyred, all for for their faith in Christ. Do we really think they were so dumb that they fought against idolatry and then somehow also committed idolatry? I don’t think so.
I got my start in christianity as protestant UMC now GMC ( my church treated communion as the body and blood) but i was a lukewarm christian for 13 yrs then became saved but living outside of the spirit (Romans 7:15-18) struggling/giving into sin for 5yrs 9mo, then i repented and asked for the Holy Spirit to come live in me so i could be made clean and my life reflect the bible. Now i live life as a Romans 8 Christian living in the Holy Spirit. Since then my chains have been broken. Not only that, the wool that was covering my eyes making me a man of division (an abomination to the Father Proverbs 6) and after reading Matthew 10:40-42 being able to see clearly, the verses make it clear that doing things in the name of saints (prophets, rightious-man, disciple) is a-okay. And the way saint veneration is explained by the clergy also made my "you're worshiping idols" comments from back in the day pointless, they dont worship them. They venerate them because the Name of God that is within them, and said saints are still alive because we do not worship a god of the dead, but The God of the Living. Since that revelation of matt 10:40-42 i will never call Orthodox or Catholics heratics. They are my Brothers/Sisters in Christ, as are my Protestant Brothers/Sisters i cannot wait till we all come together as the full body of Christ no longer divided by spiritual pedigrees and men of division.
I agree that the audio was rough 😬 I didn’t have a cameraman with me and so didn’t realize how rough it was until I got back to my editing room. I’m going to try to make that better next time! Thanks for watching tho 😁
Glad you liked the video. I agree. In post I realized the audio quality wasn’t the best. (I’m a solo production a lot of the time) so don’t always catch those things till later 😬 But thanks for watching 😁
The east-west schism wasn't five brother with one of them leaving to Los Angeles. The orthodox patriarchate of Antioch and Alexandria continued to be in communion well after the east-west schism. The Alexandrian Orthodox Patriarchate didn't fully severed communion with Rome until the 1308. Same with Antiochian patriarchate, the antiochian patriarchate has always maintained that they remained in communion with both Rome and Constantinople from 1054 to 1724 when patriarch Cyril VI Tanas was elected. He had favourable views of the Catholic Church and the Patriarch of Constantinople oversteped his authority to have him deposed and apointed another one. This effectibly divided the Patriarchate of Antioch into those who saw this event as valid or not. Eventually Cyril VI Tanas decided to break away comunion with Constantinople and stay with Rome only
@@BackpackReligion-ev4zq Hehe (didnt mean anything bad sorry if it sound like that) thank u for the answer Qeep doing what u do.Great quetion i would myself asked if i had the chance. All best ! :)
Wrong.😅 Regard christs words When the disciples tried to stop others they didn't know from healing. Did christ agree and say there apostolic authority wasn't passed down. No. He said do not stop him. What did christ tell them about lording authority 😅 Orthodox and catholic are both lies built and based on oral teaching. Just a continuing of gnostic crap
Doesn't matter. Look at the scriptures. When The apostles tried to stop a stranger as they didn't know him and hadn't given permission Did christ agree Did he say Surely u are correct make sure all who teach were passed authority by you.😅 No He told them do not stop him. Apostolic succession is a tradition of man by power hungry people
@@r.a.panimefan2109 damn I guess 16th cent lunatics are right! Do I go to the monster truck, wave pool or tanks a fireshow "church"? And where in scripture it says those aren't correct ones?
@@CanadianSoupMafia you think the reformation started in 1500s. Lol. That lie has been repeated and debunked repeatedly. The institutional church hunted burned and killed other Christians going back long before. When u have a situation where the scriptures aren't givin to the common man. Ya no chance for corruption there when a small educated social elite can control the narrative. In politics we call that a tyranny of Oligarchy. Yet none of these ortho bros see it. I don't need your permission The catholic popes permission. I don't need a elite small group of educated to tell me what scripture says. Just as Orwell said the last thing they said was to ignore the evidence of your eyes. It was there final dangerous command. My eyes tell me when I read scripture for my self without some authority figure breathing down my neck What christ said. You say we don't have authority to teach read interpret etc. The lord said Do not stop them for whoever is with us isn't against us. The lord said the 1st will be last the last will be first. The lord said do not lord it over people for those with authority are to serve. For the pagans seek power over others. You say these churches ages make them trustworthy Care to explain why each and every epistle is correcting churches. Pual is warning ephesus. Corinth and on and on. He even sent letters to rome to warn them of problem behavior. So already not even a decade after the apostles left the churches and moved on. They were already in error. You wish me to believe some early church father who wasn't a prophet. Bah. I'll take the words of my lord my God. And his prophets. The pharisee made the same argument of authority through oral words. Again u say trust the authority You say that only ur group gives teaching of scripture You say the apostles apointed a rulership of group. Christ said do not stop him preaching. Funny how your church says the opposite of christ. And in any rate. As for songs and music and whatever What does that have to do with it. Most protes don't even like it. However God is happiest when his children are singing songs and hyms to him and to each other to edify. Remember david when praising leaped and juplmped and praised the lord in basically his underwear He didn't sit pious in some church pew. He sang he jumped. Why does the old testament have books filled to the brim praising the lord of hosts in song. Your problem isn't with the songs. Your problem isn't with the smoke machines or guitars. Your problem is it isn't the music your church says is right. So long as it's orderly and not chaos. The bible says clash the symbols (meaning instrument) I couldn't care less what u have to say I have the words of God. And I'll take them every second of every day over your man made tradition. When your tradition runs totally counter to what the words of the lord say
Anglicans broke the succession during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I when their "bishiops' stopped ordaining with the intention of making priests for "sacrifice." And then, of course, by ordaining women they lopped off the head of any authentic priesthood.
I'm glad Fr Borjan explained the different patriarchies that existed at the time. Rome had a history of acting superior to the other patriarchies, routinely tried to act outside their jurisdiction, would change doctrine, would pick and choose what parts of the ecumenical councils they wanted to follow, and ultimately removed themselves from the other patriarchies. Catholicism left Orthodoxy, saying it any other way shows a very distinct lack of historical knowledge.
However, and I speak as an Orthodox priest, the sign of unity in the Ancient Church was to be in union with Rome. Secondly, the other churches historically looked to Rome for a final decision. Third, you will not see the word "Orthodox" in any of the Canons of any of the Ecumenical Councils from the first millennium. Fourth, Constantinople pushed its own particular traditions on any lands She invaded, even notoriously replacing the legitimate Liturgy of St. James in certain places with that of St. John Chrysostom. She found anything offensive that was not part of Her own eastern tradition. The church of Constantinople was, and still is, just as pushy as Rome!
In addition to Apostolic Succession, the Eastern Orthodox Church is the only faith Tradition that has maintained the authority of the Holy Spirit over Truth and Error through the Biblical Principles enduring consensus Fr. Panayiotis Papageorgiou calls the resounding voices of the many and that Scripture defines as being pleasing to the Holy Spirit. The Papacy wrestled that authority away from the Holy Spirit and granted it to the individual, Infallible, Vicar of Christ, a Pope. The Protestant Reformers took the Papal lead and took authority for themselves. American Evangelicalism has given the authority over Truth to anyone with a Bible and an opinion who lacks the fear of God to use it.
@ Yes correct, thats the entire point. No Priest, no Pastor and no Pope, but Scripture does show us how to see and follow the will of the Holy Spirit through the same principles honored by the Apostles since Pentecost.
I am Roman Catholic and I was taught that the Pope is just the administrator and someone older with a lot of Church experience who could offer advice and such. I didn’t know he had a Henry VIII style “act of supremacy”, I hope that is just a misinterpretation and not the doctrine of my faith I don’t like how my Church is behaving but I was born Catholic, I want to help these people but they are straying from the gospel pushing for female “priests” and gay marriage. I may become Orthodox by necessity, the Church must follow the law of God not that of man
John 1:14 NIV The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth John 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,* (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Where is the talk of idols? Just curious
It's an example of how Christ became man so we are able to depict him in imagery. One of the arguments from iconoclasts is that you can't portray God- so that's why it was brought up.
@@Alf_The_Gr8 Trap set, and you fell. Just as I accept the Orthodox faith which shows the real apostolic succession, so it is with the Catholic faith (to me, both are one). Orthodox find it hard to accept St. Peter's Authority, even as it is expressly shown in the Bible that Peter was the head of the apostles (not diminishing other Apostles and the authority they wielded). Our Blessed Lord, after giving peter the office of head of apostles (Mathew 16), still called him aside after his resurrection and charged him to take care of his sheep. The first act of St. Peter was to fill the gap left by Judas Iscariot, then speak up during the Pentecost. I don't know why it's hard for the Orthodox to accept the Pope. As for the infallibility, i am not in support (only God is infallible). For the matters of doctrine and faith, I expect the Pope, the Patraichs and bishops of both Catholic and Orthodox to sit as a council and define such matters.
@@kyrianpaul2992 If you don't support papal infallibility then you don't accept Catholicism, you're just cherry picking doctrine. The pope historically was considered the first among equals of the Patriarchs- the keyword being EQUALS. Historically, Rome changed its doctrine from the other Patriarchies, overstepped its jurisdiction multiple times, would pick and choose which parts of the Ecumenical Councils it wanted to listen to, and eventually changed the Nicene Creed (which was forbidden at the Third Ecumenical Council) and was condemned by every other Patriarch. So either every single other Patriarchy was wrong or the Pope is not infallible. The Catholic church obviously thought he is, because it literally allowed other Christians to be invaded, enslaved, and killed because they wouldn't accept papal infallibility. In fact they even directly attacked Constantinople over it, so clearly it's a big deal to the Catholic church to the point where they literally murdered other Christians over it.
"Obey"? The Church was always conciliatory. You are proving the point that the Bishop of Rome left the Church by saying the pope has some kind of dominion over the church. This was never the case.
@@jameschebahtah nope Rome was always referred to in the patristic era as the elder brother and even the Father. Both Peter and Paul died there, was always seen as the highest See in the church, lets not play games here.
@@Prothromos0107 the Roman Catholic church is conciliatory it never lost that aspect but every ecumenical council had and has a head in the catholic church. Hence why one Rome was cut off Orrhodoxy has never had one other ecumenical council. Yalls magisterium is utterly impotent. U threw off ur own head the pope and chose a secular head instead first the emperor and then literally muslim sultans. Every time u guys sided with the secular authority against rome in history u went into heresy. there is no difference in the modern age.
@@lionheart5078 Or maybe Rome always thought it was better than the other Patriarchies, was spiteful that it was replaced by Constantinople as the capitol of the faith, and had a history of abusing its power, changing church doctrine, lying for further power (ie using documents that were proven to be forgeries to justify taking over other church territories in the West), and changing the Nicene Creed (which was forbidden in the 3rd Ecumenical Council) for political favor with the Holy Roman Emperor. And that's a really bold claim to say that the Orthodox chose to be controlled by the Muslims when the only reason that happened was from Rome withholding military aid from the Holy Roman Emperor any time the Ottomans attacked Orthodox nations- all because they wouldn't acknowledge papal infallibility. The catholic church happily let other Christians be conquered, enslaved, and murdered all because of their corrupt, power hungry nature. In fact they even attacked Constantinople in the 4th Crusade because of it. Even in early Russia the Orthodox Christians there preferred the rule of the Tatars because the Catholics would routinely come in and slaughter them for not worshipping the pope. You need to take a real look at history and stop worshipping your pope. Especially now when you've got a full blown heretic sitting in the vatican.
The problem with Icons/Mary/Saints, is not that it’s idol worship. It’s that for many people, it can take away focus from Christ. MANY people have a STRONG propensity for it. So for them, it can be dangerous. More importantly, it’s not necessary. It’s just simply not necessary. As a protestant, I sometimes hug my Bible. But I can control the level of reverence I give to the book. One only needs to look at Facebook Catholic groups to see people literally worshiping Mary as “Goddess of Heaven“. This is because humans have a strong propensity towards polytheism. This is why it’s so incredibly important to stay as far away as possible from these things and focus only on Jesus.
I understand where you're coming from, as I was protestant for 56 years. Now I am Orthodox. Where once I thought the same -- this is taking focus away from Christ--I now see that the icons actually place my focus more upon Him. These icons are of saints who are to be emulated and events that are so Christ-centered that I cannot help by thank Him and praise Him. Mary and the saints pray and intercede for us. We do not worship Mary, but we venerate her as the ultimate human (not divine) who completely surrendered everything as the first Christian. In addition, there is such a unity of the Trinity in Orthodoxy. We always pray in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus does not stand alone or above the other Persons of the Trinity. Anyway, you are most welcome to visit an Orthodox church anytime. Truly, there's nothing I can say that even makes sense 100% until it's experienced. :)
The issue with the Papists is that they have an incorrect and erroneous view of MANY things. The Immaculate conception elevates the Mother of God from being the "Great Example" to the "Great Exception". But it begins even before that with an erroneous understanding of sin and "guilt". Furthermore, they believe in meritorious works and a "treasury of merits" from Christ and the Saints. It's all incorrect and what begins the distorted practices you mention.
I used to be a protestant (reformed Baptist/ Calvinist) couple of months ago... not any more! Now I'm looking into the Greek orthodox. For me it was 3 things that lead me away from it: 1) what the early church fathers taught/believed. 2) reading church history. 3) read protestant history (read Rock and Sand by Josiah Trenham) I agree with comment below that Mary, being the queen of heaven, the ever virginity of Mary, and the communion of the saints actually magnifies Jesus and his position! How so, what Jesus accomplished for His body (the church) making them priests, kings, judges, etc. He gave His brothers and sisters titles and positions. Mary descends from a royal line, king David and she gave birth to the King of the Jews, thus making her queen. She was chosen by the trinity to carry and deliver Him, whom creation cannot contain. She became the Ark of the covenant when she carry inside her the king, priest, the bread of life, just like the ark of covenant in the OT. In a matter of fact, I would bet that the Ark of the covenant was a foreshadow of Mary. Anyways, I can go on and on. I recommend you do the 3 steps above. Good bless.
Just read the Bible and do what it says. Heal the sick, cast out demons and pray for those who need it. All this religion just confuses people. We have the Holy Spirit and will do great works!
Ahahah so the progressive nuts saying "Jesus is a tr00nmorpher" are alright? (They read it and that's their conclusion) Just do your thing maaan. You are using the book given to you by the church you deny, which has the precedence of interpretation, not what some double digit iq hick thinks.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
May God help you! Look a little deeper and things aren’t exactly how you see them. Look deeper into the scriptures, and then, look into History and you will see what Christians have done from the earliest times.
Apparently you forgot to read the rest of the Book of Exodus where God tells Moses to make images of Cherubim and put them all over the Ark and Temple 😂
Jesus says we should keep the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20:4-6 gives us the second commandment which says do not bow down to or serve images. It does not even use the word worship. Parading around, kissing, praying to- all of this is serving false gods and images. So, the Orthodox are actually breaking two commandments. Of course they will come up with all kinds of clever ways to justify their sin, every sinner does this, really. There is only one person we should bow to and serve and that is the Lord.
It helps to know the Scriptures well enough before accusing people of sinning. Please tell me if images are so sinful, why were there images of created beings such as angels in the Temple, and why were the same on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant? It seems your comment is made out of ignorance.
Orthodox: "These aren't gods, it's just a painting on a piece of wood. We're showing respect to the person depicted and asking them to pray for us." Protestants: "Wow, you worship false gods." I know most Protestants are lucky to even think about maybe going to church every now and then, but your standard for worship seriously can't be THAT low.
@@perochialjoe All they can rely on is strawmen and their own ignorance of the Scriptures they claim to hold so closely to, it seems. Yet another sign that they sadly are apart from the Light of Christ.
@@WanderingThief I am sorry, I do not mean to be mean. I am not saying these things just to be a jerk. I am telling you what the Bible says in plain English because I love the Lord and rejoice in the truth. I also care about you and do not want you to fall into folly. As for the Ark, God gave the Israelites specific instruction upon how his Ark should be made. Did he give the Orthodox Church specific instructions to make all kinds of gilded icons and images of men in the Bible? No, he did not. The men of the Orthodox Church have taken it upon themselves to read into the Bible what they deem fit. They want to worship God their own worldly way and have modeled themselves after the ancient Israelites to a degree. But the Israelites were God's chosen people and all those rules and ceremonies were just for them. The covenant has been fulfilled as you know. I know it sounds like I am being mean but there is no other way to convey that which I believe under God.
@@perochialjoe Surely, you are correct-there are a lot of pretenders amongst protestant denominations. But to get to my point, there is nothing wrong with paintings of people, there is nothing wrong with admiring Christians from the past. Our elders living and dead have much wisdom, though a lot of foolishness as well 😉. True wisdom only comes from the Lord. The issue is that the Orthodox make all the "veneration" part of their worship of God. God does not share attention with so-called saints, who may or may not have actually been good men. The Bible says all believers are saints, really. If you want to admire "saints" you should really be doing that on your own time, should you not? Not on God's time. You mock protestant churches but in one of their services they only pray to the Lord, they only bow to the Lord, they only read form his word. For all of its perceived virtue the Orthodox Church is quite worldly as it put men upon a pedestal that they have no business being on, not next to the Lord anyway. The Orthodox bow to men and Mary, they serve men and Mary. What am I supposed to think when I see all of this? I'm sorry, brother. It just doesn't seem right.
I have a question for the monsignor: Padre, what credible and verifiable evidence can you provide to prove Jesus was divine and the son of god? Thank you and good luck.
Was it not Christ who used mud to cure the eyes of a blind man? Was it not Christ who told a supplicant to bathe in the waters? Are these not created objects?
If those are the best arguments he has for the icons - then it's really an idolatry. Plus even the saints are dead until the day of the RESSURECTION AND JUDGEMENT, so those are graven images and people are praying to dead people who are asleep in their graves, per jesus' words, and can't intercede. Also I heard many justifications of it, but at the end of the day vemersting icons IS the same as worshipping them. It looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck but you expect me to believe that its a cow just because you said so? Can anyone actually defend the icon worship with actual scriptures and sound logic, or it can't be done? I want to believe that millions of people are not playing Russian roulette with their salvation. I really do.
Your standards for worship are extraordinarily low if you believe showing respect to somebody and asking for their prayers is worshipping them as a god. By that logic I hope you've never once asked somebody to pray for you or by your standards you're worshipping them. Also even if we went with your incorrect view that we're asking dead people to intercede for us- what about the icons of the angels? I have a feeling no argument will ever be good enough for you because you've already made your decision and will discount whatever arguments you hear to the contrary. You clearly know better than the Church founded by the Apostles and every Saint for the last 2,000 years.
@perochialjoe have you ever seen how orthodox people venerate their icons? That is more of a worship than what Hindus are doing towards their idols. It's a duck and unless you can really give me a proper explanation why it's not - your words are not more trustworthy than my eyes. Also all the saints are sleeping in their graves, waiting for the great judgment day. Does the Bible say otherwise anywhere in the scripture?
@perochialjoe and as a Christians we are called to give out answers when asked. If you don't know - then just say it. No need to throw shade on me and my faith or goodwill. I said I wanted to believe that it's not an idol worship, but so far I just hear bs and deflections. I grew up in a orthodox country so I do know better. I've seen it all. It's idol worship.
@@donfanto1 Yes, I have. Quite a bit. I don't think YOU have actually seen much icon veneration if that's seriously your outlook on it. "God is not the God of the dead, He is the God of the living. For in Christ, all are alive" (Luke 20:38) "Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (Rev 5:8) Clearly the Bible says the Saints pray for us and are alive.
@perochialjoe did you bother to read the whole chapter or just that one verse? That is the part where Jesus is being challenged with tricky question by saducees who denied the resurrection. And the account which you quoted which Jesus said was concerning ressurection. It's clear as day and can not be misinterpreted unless you're doing it willingly. So brother, are you ignorant or malicious? Why do you keep avoiding my questions if you're the one who has the right answers? Mind you, I'm not trying to challenge your faith. Only your strongheadedness. In fact I'm looking for faith to be shared with me, yet you're talking to me spitefully like a pharisee. Unable to provide scriptural answers and falling back onto the authority of the traditions instead of the authority of God's word. Quite ironic for you to quote that verse. Come to your senses brother and answer me truthfully. Do you know or do you not know the answer to my question?
Korean Orthodox here. I was a Buddhist most of my life until the Lord came to me and opened my eyes. God bless my Christian brothers and sisters ☦️☦️☦️
Serbian Orthodox here, thank you for the interview and God bless!
Online arguments can be so frustratingly unfruitful. Pride dominates and the truth gets pushed aside. Even if I am right, I do a disservice to the truth, getting puffed up and trying to prove myself right. May God grant us all the humility to allow the Light of the Truth to enlighten our darkness. Glory to Jesus Christ.
Absolutely agree. They do no service to the souls of my brothers and sisters. Plus they aren’t likely to change the opinion of whomever is arguing. Sincere debates are almost never present online.
Well if you are here conversing with people to test your faith or prove you are right you are in the wrong place for motive. I believe our motive for as Orthodox should be to spread the truth. We put out the info. I don’t care if a half a present of people that read my comments have humility and act on them. And I do get people who find me again and thank me for my comments because it made them stop and think.
@@katiek.8808 Well I should pray for more tact and humility with responses. That’s wonderful to hear about your getting such positive feedback from your speaking the truth in love.
I fall into this trap often.
@ your tact is probably fine. Some people don’t like hearing they are wrong. Most respond with anger.
this is what real christianity looks like. it's the ancient perserved apostolic faith. unchanged and uncorrupted since the great schism. no purgatory, no paying away for your sins, no tithes, accurate biblical canon. icons are legit if you know anything about history. so funny how protestants pick and choose orthodox church fathers but don't agree with anything else they believed in. even the orthodox metaphysics regarding the trinity is the most coherent.
There is a yearly membership fee though, around 300$
@@Michael-wm7dc No there isn't.
Different jurisdictions have different rules--the OCA encourages tithing, for example, while some churches have a dues structure, and others may be supported by the state. Ultimately the church building needs to be built and maintained, the priest and any staff need to be able to support their families, etc.
Orthodoxy is not ancient. It’s very old but it has never disappeared and therefore isn’t technically ancient and therefore can’t be known through archeology or historical Scholarship alone without also understanding what it is today, which is precisely what it has always been, the Church of the Apostles that has remained compliant to the authority of the Holy Spirit since Pentecost. The main objection of Protestantism is that the Apostolic Church was lost, ceased to exist, “ancient” and must be restored through Scholarship and their interpretation, pick the interpreter, Calvin, Luther….Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, of Scripture. So to call the Church ancient kind of plays into their hands. I prefer the Church from Antiquity.
As a Protestant i saw how church Protestant church grows so fast it is also because of constantly offering so the church is able to use the money to do more ministry and share the gospel by holding some events. Purely just sharing my view
Posting again as my first post disappeared! But thank you for having Father Borjan discuss these things with you. He is my own Spiritual Father and Parish Priest. God has done a work in our midst and continues to do so. The Parish was nearly going to be closed, with only a few elderly people in attendance. But The Holy Spirit had other plans, and today our number grows and grows thanks be to God and the intercession of the Theotokos! We welcome all for a visit and as Father Borjan said, we welcome all questions. Come with good will in your heart and seek earnestly and may the God of all comfort show you the Truth which was once a hidden gem here in the US, but is now being discovered by a great many souls. The Ark of Salvation is open to those souls who seek God. Glory to God!
Thank you for asking Father Borjan these questions. I am an enquirer into Orthodoxy and this was very helpful and confirmative.
This is great!
As always, Father explains it very well.
Thank God I'm Orthodox.
God Bless Fr. Borjan and the parishoners at Holy Resurrection!
Praise God! Wonderful video thank you, dear ones 🙏🏽
Thank you for sharing about Holy Orthodoxy.
The other big thing to realize with icons and idolatry, is that, historically speaking, idolatry is actually a well defined practice with specific ceremonies and specific beliefs surrounding them. That is, ancient people built idols, but they were not stupid; they knew that the idol in and of itself was not a god. Instead, they had a specific ceremony for the idol to breathe in their god/spirit. Once the spirit inhabited the idol, the people would then "take care of" the god by giving it food offerings and such, and then they expected that in response to their hospitality, the spirit would then be favorable towards them. So, when God prohibits idolatry, He is not only prohibiting the worship of other gods, but He is also prohibiting His people to try and worship Him in this way. That is why it is significant when Solomon says "the heavens of heavens cannot contain You, how much less this house" (1 Kings 8:27) But, what's also significant to mention is that, those spirits or gods that idolatry seeks to have inhabit their idols, are actually fallen angels, or demons (as it says in the Psalms or by St. Paul in Corinthians). So, idolatry is dangerous because it's actually real, or at least dealing with real demons. But, this is also why it doesn't work in the way the idolaters intend it to (i.e. since they're dealing with demons, instead of trapping the demon and getting it to do what they want, the demon instead inhabits them and creates chaos).
Anyway, if that in and of itself doesn't clearly distinguish idolatry from icons, then perhaps it might help to realize that even pagan temples had icons which were clearly distinguished from their idols. In other words, they are historically two very different things and served very different functions; there is no way to get around that fact.
Having that said, perhaps the most important thing to distinguish icons from idolatry is that God Himself commands iconography in the Tabernacle and Temple (Exodus 25:18-20, 26:1, 36:35; 1 Kings 6:23-36), which is significant, because Orthodox temples are the fulfillment of the Jerusalem temple and are the local manifestation of it where the fullness of the church in that place comes together to worship in spirit and truth. The Icons of the Tabernacle and Temple were, under the Old Covenant, only depictions of the angels in heaven, but they are fulfilled in the New Covenant because Christ has defeated death and plundered hades, so now all the saints in Christ dwell alongside the angels (in other words, depicting the saints in icons is a confession of salvation/Christ's victory). And just as the Tabernacle and Temple were earthly manifestations of the Heavenly Temple (Wisdom 9:8; Malachi 1:11; John 4:21-24; Hebrews 8:1-5, 9:11-14, 10:22-24, 13:10-15), so too are Orthodox Temples and the Divine Liturgy a manifestation of the heavenly liturgy (as depicted in the Book of Revelation for example - Revelation 1:10, 4:1-5:14, 7:9-17, 11:15-19, 19:1-10). Icons are therefore not only windows into heaven, but a confession that heaven and earth come together in the Divine Liturgy where we mystically worship alongside the angels and saints (even the Lutheran liturgy confesses this when they say "therefore with angels and archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify Your glorious name, evermore praising You and saying... Holy, Holy Holy...").
If that wasn't enough, keep in mind that even ancient Judaism had iconography (look up the Dura-Europo's synagogue), which shows once again that it was Judaism and everyone else who changed, where as Orthodoxy has remained the same.
Veneration (showing honor, love, and respect) is just what Christians do. Not only do we do it to each other since we are all made in the image of God, but even in Protestantism it is done to the Bible by being bound in the finest leathers with gilded pages, etc. Veneration takes many forms.
I know it's a struggle for the west and Protestantism because our culture is so far removed from Biblical culture, and that this is also in reaction to abuses of Rome, but for anyone turned off of Orthodoxy because of Icons, keep exploring; you'll be happy that you did. I know the intercessions of the saints might be another stumbling block for you, but we'll leave that for another time (although, hint: if you can understand what the Divine Council is, you will begin to see how that works as well [combine that with Ch. 9 in "The Lord of Spirits" book, and it should all click... at least, that's what did it for me).
The complete treasure.Orthodoxy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great conversation. Hope you enjoyed your first Divine Liturgy, there's nothing like it! Maybe you're already planning on going again, but some good advice I heard is to commit to attending at least 3 - 5 Liturgies. That first time it's just so much and often extremely foreign, particularly for Westerners and Protestants. Going a few times allows you to get a better feel for all that's going on. It's incredible rich and theologically full.
I love this brother so much. Grace be with you brothers.
Orthodoxy is the one true church of christ founder by christ and the apostles
Well, yesterday I spoke to a orthodox priest and he told me, that anyone, who says I am the only one and this claim, isn't worth listening to. We shouldn't think, that God is so small and is so poor, that he has only one way of worship. If it ain't against scripture, don't be so haste to claim these things...
@@Harmytwo I very seriously doubt an Orthodox priest told you that.
@@Harmytwoif an orthodox priest told you that, he’s sadly heretical. Ecumenism is a heresy.
@@perochialjoe Sadly, it is plausible. Lord have mercy.
Amén 🙏🏽 Our Lord Jesus Christ is risen! ☦️
I grew up in Protestant churches, but the first time I went to an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy was the first time I became a Christian. I've been trying to be Christian all my life, but the Protestant church constantly turned me Agnostic. Fifty years of disappointment. I finally found the Holy Spirit. If you've never been to an Orthodox Divine liturgy, you are cheating yourself of something really special.
God Bless you!
I recognize this Church! My Parish visited them for Vespers on the way up to Jordanville Monastery. The Priest was wonderful and Church beautiful! I recognize the unique white iconostasis, and the pews with the gold plates are familiar too. Wonderful little Serbian Orthodox Church
Great video, God bless you all ❤
Great to see my home parish, Holy Resurrection, featured. Thank you Fr. Borjan!
Thank you, father borjan!
I thank God for His church!
I'm Serbian Orthodox too ❤
Based
Is the interviewer nervous?
The Old Testament idol text had to due with a graven image, something worshipped. Orthodox don’t worship icons, we worship God. Protestants are confused. Images aren’t bad, graven images are.
I wasn’t nervous. Just have trouble keeping my legs still when I sit. But thanks for watching the video 😁
The trouble is that often the icons are treated as idols and the priests are not addressing this.
@@synthesaurus When are they treated as idols? I'll wait.
@@synthesaurusNot true, some take veneration very seriously with elaborate rituals before Icons but no one believes that the actual essence of God resides inside an Icon. I don’t think even Catholics believe that concerning their religious statuary.
@@kevinfarrell9678 you need to visit any slavic orthodox nation. Often some icons are “revered” for their special ability to ward off particular maladies etc. Many cases when a stain is taken as an icon and a shrine quickly is built with endless stream of “pilgrims”
6:31 Great points. SO many good examples to counter the Protestant accusation of idol worship. I was going to mention some of those same scriptures if Father hadn’t. As a Protestant I had a different lens I was looking through, and even though I had read all those passages multiples times, I still had this iconoclast perspective because I didn’t connect the dots, or I listened to other iconoclasts rather than the scriptures and those who have been in the True Church since it’s inception. You can also look at history to see this in practice by faithful Christians.
As an Orthodox Christian now, it seems so silly that I would accuse people of being idolatrous who were fighting against paganism and idolatry and even being martyred, all for for their faith in Christ. Do we really think they were so dumb that they fought against idolatry and then somehow also committed idolatry? I don’t think so.
Orthodox Greek here, God bless
I got my start in christianity as protestant UMC now GMC ( my church treated communion as the body and blood) but i was a lukewarm christian for 13 yrs then became saved but living outside of the spirit (Romans 7:15-18) struggling/giving into sin for 5yrs 9mo, then i repented and asked for the Holy Spirit to come live in me so i could be made clean and my life reflect the bible. Now i live life as a Romans 8 Christian living in the Holy Spirit. Since then my chains have been broken. Not only that, the wool that was covering my eyes making me a man of division (an abomination to the Father Proverbs 6) and after reading Matthew 10:40-42 being able to see clearly, the verses make it clear that doing things in the name of saints (prophets, rightious-man, disciple) is a-okay. And the way saint veneration is explained by the clergy also made my "you're worshiping idols" comments from back in the day pointless, they dont worship them. They venerate them because the Name of God that is within them, and said saints are still alive because we do not worship a god of the dead, but The God of the Living. Since that revelation of matt 10:40-42 i will never call Orthodox or Catholics heratics. They are my Brothers/Sisters in Christ, as are my Protestant Brothers/Sisters i cannot wait till we all come together as the full body of Christ no longer divided by spiritual pedigrees and men of division.
Orthodoxy is the true church ☦️ I whole heartedly believe if one studies early church history one would no longer question Orthodoxy
Interesting video!
Awesome vid
Great content! I will say though that the audio is rough.
I agree that the audio was rough 😬 I didn’t have a cameraman with me and so didn’t realize how rough it was until I got back to my editing room. I’m going to try to make that better next time!
Thanks for watching tho 😁
@BackpackReligion-ev4zq Hey man, it's all good! Doubt I could do better. Just some constructive criticism
You experienced the Divine Liturgy. Not just some service.
... and you can *participate* in it and contribute to it
Very good video. Need to improve sound quality though. Other than that keep it coming!
Glad you liked the video. I agree. In post I realized the audio quality wasn’t the best. (I’m a solo production a lot of the time) so don’t always catch those things till later 😬
But thanks for watching 😁
The east-west schism wasn't five brother with one of them leaving to Los Angeles. The orthodox patriarchate of Antioch and Alexandria continued to be in communion well after the east-west schism. The Alexandrian Orthodox Patriarchate didn't fully severed communion with Rome until the 1308. Same with Antiochian patriarchate, the antiochian patriarchate has always maintained that they remained in communion with both Rome and Constantinople from 1054 to 1724 when patriarch Cyril VI Tanas was elected. He had favourable views of the Catholic Church and the Patriarch of Constantinople oversteped his authority to have him deposed and apointed another one. This effectibly divided the Patriarchate of Antioch into those who saw this event as valid or not. Eventually Cyril VI Tanas decided to break away comunion with Constantinople and stay with Rome only
Great video.
Thabk u for this conversatikn.
Thang God im Ortodox.
P.s.why is the man asking quetions shaking (moving)legs ALL the time .... 😮
could be nerves or anxiety.
I have trouble sitting still. I thought about it in post. I need to teach myself to keep my legs still 😬 but glad you liked the video!
@@BackpackReligion-ev4zq Hehe (didnt mean anything bad sorry if it sound like that) thank u for the answer
Qeep doing what u do.Great quetion i would myself asked if i had the chance.
All best !
:)
Can you please make a video of orthodox response to Islam?
In the some of the icons there are parts of the body of the man in the picture
Are you talking about relics?
@WanderingThief yes
@@manuhonkanen2111 Relics are awesome
☦️ 📿
Does anyone know the name of the choir singing in the background?
Is it The Abused Boys Choir of the Eternal Rectory?
About the Eucharist, if I were to say the words...this bread is the body of Christ...nothing would happen because I do not have the authority.
Wrong.😅
Regard christs words
When the disciples tried to stop others they didn't know from healing.
Did christ agree and say there apostolic authority wasn't passed down.
No.
He said do not stop him.
What did christ tell them about lording authority 😅
Orthodox and catholic are both lies built and based on oral teaching. Just a continuing of gnostic crap
☦
Celtic Orthodox 😇
Orthadox, Catholic and I think maybe the Anglican Church are the only ones that can trace lineage back to the Apsotles.
Doesn't matter. Look at the scriptures. When
The apostles tried to stop a stranger as they didn't know him and hadn't given permission
Did christ agree
Did he say
Surely u are correct make sure all who teach were passed authority by you.😅
No
He told them do not stop him.
Apostolic succession is a tradition of man by power hungry people
@@r.a.panimefan2109 damn I guess 16th cent lunatics are right! Do I go to the monster truck, wave pool or tanks a fireshow "church"? And where in scripture it says those aren't correct ones?
@@CanadianSoupMafia you think the reformation started in 1500s. Lol.
That lie has been repeated and debunked repeatedly.
The institutional church hunted burned and killed other Christians going back long before.
When u have a situation where the scriptures aren't givin to the common man.
Ya no chance for corruption there when a small educated social elite can control the narrative.
In politics we call that a tyranny of Oligarchy. Yet none of these ortho bros see it.
I don't need your permission
The catholic popes permission.
I don't need a elite small group of educated to tell me what scripture says.
Just as Orwell said the last thing they said was to ignore the evidence of your eyes. It was there final dangerous command.
My eyes tell me when I read scripture for my self without some authority figure breathing down my neck
What christ said.
You say we don't have authority to teach read interpret etc.
The lord said
Do not stop them for whoever is with us isn't against us.
The lord said the 1st will be last the last will be first. The lord said do not lord it over people for those with authority are to serve.
For the pagans seek power over others.
You say these churches ages make them trustworthy
Care to explain why each and every epistle is correcting churches.
Pual is warning ephesus. Corinth and on and on.
He even sent letters to rome to warn them of problem behavior.
So already not even a decade after the apostles left the churches and moved on. They were already in error.
You wish me to believe some early church father who wasn't a prophet.
Bah.
I'll take the words of my lord my God. And his prophets.
The pharisee made the same argument of authority through oral words.
Again u say trust the authority
You say that only ur group gives teaching of scripture
You say the apostles apointed a rulership of group.
Christ said do not stop him preaching.
Funny how your church says the opposite of christ.
And in any rate. As for songs and music and whatever
What does that have to do with it.
Most protes don't even like it.
However
God is happiest when his children are singing songs and hyms to him and to each other to edify.
Remember david when praising leaped and juplmped and praised the lord in basically his underwear
He didn't sit pious in some church pew.
He sang he jumped.
Why does the old testament have books filled to the brim praising the lord of hosts in song.
Your problem isn't with the songs. Your problem isn't with the smoke machines or guitars.
Your problem is it isn't the music your church says is right.
So long as it's orderly and not chaos.
The bible says clash the symbols (meaning instrument)
I couldn't care less what u have to say
I have the words of God. And I'll take them every second of every day over your man made tradition.
When your tradition runs totally counter to what the words of the lord say
Anglicans broke the succession during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I when their "bishiops' stopped ordaining with the intention of making priests for "sacrifice." And then, of course, by ordaining women they lopped off the head of any authentic priesthood.
I'm glad Fr Borjan explained the different patriarchies that existed at the time. Rome had a history of acting superior to the other patriarchies, routinely tried to act outside their jurisdiction, would change doctrine, would pick and choose what parts of the ecumenical councils they wanted to follow, and ultimately removed themselves from the other patriarchies. Catholicism left Orthodoxy, saying it any other way shows a very distinct lack of historical knowledge.
However, and I speak as an Orthodox priest, the sign of unity in the Ancient Church was to be in union with Rome. Secondly, the other churches historically looked to Rome for a final decision. Third, you will not see the word "Orthodox" in any of the Canons of any of the Ecumenical Councils from the first millennium. Fourth, Constantinople pushed its own particular traditions on any lands She invaded, even notoriously replacing the legitimate Liturgy of St. James in certain places with that of St. John Chrysostom. She found anything offensive that was not part of Her own eastern tradition. The church of Constantinople was, and still is, just as pushy as Rome!
In addition to Apostolic Succession, the Eastern Orthodox Church is the only faith Tradition that has maintained the authority of the Holy Spirit over Truth and Error through the Biblical Principles enduring consensus Fr. Panayiotis Papageorgiou calls the resounding voices of the many and that Scripture defines as being pleasing to the Holy Spirit. The Papacy wrestled that authority away from the Holy Spirit and granted it to the individual, Infallible, Vicar of Christ, a Pope. The Protestant Reformers took the Papal lead and took authority for themselves. American Evangelicalism has given the authority over Truth to anyone with a Bible and an opinion who lacks the fear of God to use it.
nonsense! You cannot know what capacities the Holy Spirit has-no matter what some priest says!
@ Yes correct, thats the entire point. No Priest, no Pastor and no Pope, but Scripture does show us how to see and follow the will of the Holy Spirit through the same principles honored by the Apostles since Pentecost.
I am Roman Catholic and I was taught that the Pope is just the administrator and someone older with a lot of Church experience who could offer advice and such. I didn’t know he had a Henry VIII style “act of supremacy”, I hope that is just a misinterpretation and not the doctrine of my faith
I don’t like how my Church is behaving but I was born Catholic, I want to help these people but they are straying from the gospel pushing for female “priests” and gay marriage. I may become Orthodox by necessity, the Church must follow the law of God not that of man
For the love of all that is pure and good stop shaking your legs while recording a video! Good content tho, good job!
When you interviewing, stop the neverous tick ie leg shaking its distracting
John 1:14 NIV The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth
John 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,* (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Where is the talk of idols? Just curious
It's an example of how Christ became man so we are able to depict him in imagery. One of the arguments from iconoclasts is that you can't portray God- so that's why it was brought up.
Thank God I am Catholic.
Roman catholics aren't actually "catholic" only the Orthodox church is the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
@@Alf_The_Gr8 Trap set, and you fell. Just as I accept the Orthodox faith which shows the real apostolic succession, so it is with the Catholic faith (to me, both are one). Orthodox find it hard to accept St. Peter's Authority, even as it is expressly shown in the Bible that Peter was the head of the apostles (not diminishing other Apostles and the authority they wielded). Our Blessed Lord, after giving peter the office of head of apostles (Mathew 16), still called him aside after his resurrection and charged him to take care of his sheep. The first act of St. Peter was to fill the gap left by Judas Iscariot, then speak up during the Pentecost. I don't know why it's hard for the Orthodox to accept the Pope. As for the infallibility, i am not in support (only God is infallible). For the matters of doctrine and faith, I expect the Pope, the Patraichs and bishops of both Catholic and Orthodox to sit as a council and define such matters.
@@kyrianpaul2992 If you don't support papal infallibility then you don't accept Catholicism, you're just cherry picking doctrine. The pope historically was considered the first among equals of the Patriarchs- the keyword being EQUALS. Historically, Rome changed its doctrine from the other Patriarchies, overstepped its jurisdiction multiple times, would pick and choose which parts of the Ecumenical Councils it wanted to listen to, and eventually changed the Nicene Creed (which was forbidden at the Third Ecumenical Council) and was condemned by every other Patriarch. So either every single other Patriarchy was wrong or the Pope is not infallible. The Catholic church obviously thought he is, because it literally allowed other Christians to be invaded, enslaved, and killed because they wouldn't accept papal infallibility. In fact they even directly attacked Constantinople over it, so clearly it's a big deal to the Catholic church to the point where they literally murdered other Christians over it.
@@perochialjoeVery true also the fact that Pope is universalist
@@kyrianpaul2992unfortunately Roman-Chatolic church have nothing to do whit St.Peter teaching. They stack in papal teaching actually plenty of heresy.
the other 4 brothers were all younger and forgot that their father told them to obey the oldest one for the sake of unity.
"Obey"? The Church was always conciliatory. You are proving the point that the Bishop of Rome left the Church by saying the pope has some kind of dominion over the church. This was never the case.
Well really the oldest brother would not have been Rome, but Jerusalem (and then probably Antioch).
@@jameschebahtah nope Rome was always referred to in the patristic era as the elder brother and even the Father. Both Peter and Paul died there, was always seen as the highest See in the church, lets not play games here.
@@Prothromos0107 the Roman Catholic church is conciliatory it never lost that aspect but every ecumenical council had and has a head in the catholic church. Hence why one Rome was cut off Orrhodoxy has never had one other ecumenical council. Yalls magisterium is utterly impotent. U threw off ur own head the pope and chose a secular head instead first the emperor and then literally muslim sultans. Every time u guys sided with the secular authority against rome in history u went into heresy. there is no difference in the modern age.
@@lionheart5078 Or maybe Rome always thought it was better than the other Patriarchies, was spiteful that it was replaced by Constantinople as the capitol of the faith, and had a history of abusing its power, changing church doctrine, lying for further power (ie using documents that were proven to be forgeries to justify taking over other church territories in the West), and changing the Nicene Creed (which was forbidden in the 3rd Ecumenical Council) for political favor with the Holy Roman Emperor. And that's a really bold claim to say that the Orthodox chose to be controlled by the Muslims when the only reason that happened was from Rome withholding military aid from the Holy Roman Emperor any time the Ottomans attacked Orthodox nations- all because they wouldn't acknowledge papal infallibility. The catholic church happily let other Christians be conquered, enslaved, and murdered all because of their corrupt, power hungry nature. In fact they even attacked Constantinople in the 4th Crusade because of it. Even in early Russia the Orthodox Christians there preferred the rule of the Tatars because the Catholics would routinely come in and slaughter them for not worshipping the pope.
You need to take a real look at history and stop worshipping your pope. Especially now when you've got a full blown heretic sitting in the vatican.
Dude must be nervous; he can't stop shaking his knees LOL- it's really annoying
Prove me with the scripture why a priest has to wear that hat for starters
The problem with Icons/Mary/Saints, is not that it’s idol worship. It’s that for many people, it can take away focus from Christ. MANY people have a STRONG propensity for it. So for them, it can be dangerous. More importantly, it’s not necessary. It’s just simply not necessary. As a protestant, I sometimes hug my Bible. But I can control the level of reverence I give to the book. One only needs to look at Facebook Catholic groups to see people literally worshiping Mary as “Goddess of Heaven“. This is because humans have a strong propensity towards polytheism. This is why it’s so incredibly important to stay as far away as possible from these things and focus only on Jesus.
I understand where you're coming from, as I was protestant for 56 years. Now I am Orthodox. Where once I thought the same -- this is taking focus away from Christ--I now see that the icons actually place my focus more upon Him. These icons are of saints who are to be emulated and events that are so Christ-centered that I cannot help by thank Him and praise Him. Mary and the saints pray and intercede for us. We do not worship Mary, but we venerate her as the ultimate human (not divine) who completely surrendered everything as the first Christian. In addition, there is such a unity of the Trinity in Orthodoxy. We always pray in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus does not stand alone or above the other Persons of the Trinity. Anyway, you are most welcome to visit an Orthodox church anytime. Truly, there's nothing I can say that even makes sense 100% until it's experienced. :)
The issue with the Papists is that they have an incorrect and erroneous view of MANY things. The Immaculate conception elevates the Mother of God from being the "Great Example" to the "Great Exception". But it begins even before that with an erroneous understanding of sin and "guilt". Furthermore, they believe in meritorious works and a "treasury of merits" from Christ and the Saints. It's all incorrect and what begins the distorted practices you mention.
I used to be a protestant (reformed Baptist/ Calvinist) couple of months ago... not any more! Now I'm looking into the Greek orthodox. For me it was 3 things that lead me away from it:
1) what the early church fathers taught/believed.
2) reading church history.
3) read protestant history (read Rock and Sand by Josiah Trenham)
I agree with comment below that Mary, being the queen of heaven, the ever virginity of Mary, and the communion of the saints actually magnifies Jesus and his position! How so, what Jesus accomplished for His body (the church) making them priests, kings, judges, etc. He gave His brothers and sisters titles and positions. Mary descends from a royal line, king David and she gave birth to the King of the Jews, thus making her queen. She was chosen by the trinity to carry and deliver Him, whom creation cannot contain. She became the Ark of the covenant when she carry inside her the king, priest, the bread of life, just like the ark of covenant in the OT. In a matter of fact, I would bet that the Ark of the covenant was a foreshadow of Mary. Anyways, I can go on and on. I recommend you do the 3 steps above. Good bless.
Just read the Bible and do what it says. Heal the sick, cast out demons and pray for those who need it. All this religion just confuses people.
We have the Holy Spirit and will do great works!
Same thing every heretical group says. The very Bible you tell me to read says that Christianity is a religion, in the Epistle of James.
Ahahah so the progressive nuts saying "Jesus is a tr00nmorpher" are alright? (They read it and that's their conclusion) Just do your thing maaan. You are using the book given to you by the church you deny, which has the precedence of interpretation, not what some double digit iq hick thinks.
evil spirit is in your head's non-orthodox icons pfu HOLY SPIRIT IS WHAT ORTHODOXY's ICONS ARE EXPRESSING AS IMAGES OF THe POEPLE AND OF GOD !!!!1
the questions far surpassed any of the answers i guess you can explain away anything
Why are orthodox brothers killing orthodox in ukraine war?
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Ok, so tell me, who ordered a sculpture of a serpent so that if you look at it you get healed? Was it.. God..?
Numbers 21, 8-9
May God help you! Look a little deeper and things aren’t exactly how you see them. Look deeper into the scriptures, and then, look into History and you will see what Christians have done from the earliest times.
Apparently you forgot to read the rest of the Book of Exodus where God tells Moses to make images of Cherubim and put them all over the Ark and Temple 😂
Judging from the constant twitching of your legs, you seem to high anxiety. Work on inner peace
Jesus says we should keep the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20:4-6 gives us the second commandment which says do not bow down to or serve images. It does not even use the word worship. Parading around, kissing, praying to- all of this is serving false gods and images. So, the Orthodox are actually breaking two commandments. Of course they will come up with all kinds of clever ways to justify their sin, every sinner does this, really. There is only one person we should bow to and serve and that is the Lord.
It helps to know the Scriptures well enough before accusing people of sinning. Please tell me if images are so sinful, why were there images of created beings such as angels in the Temple, and why were the same on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant? It seems your comment is made out of ignorance.
Orthodox: "These aren't gods, it's just a painting on a piece of wood. We're showing respect to the person depicted and asking them to pray for us."
Protestants: "Wow, you worship false gods."
I know most Protestants are lucky to even think about maybe going to church every now and then, but your standard for worship seriously can't be THAT low.
@@perochialjoe All they can rely on is strawmen and their own ignorance of the Scriptures they claim to hold so closely to, it seems. Yet another sign that they sadly are apart from the Light of Christ.
@@WanderingThief I am sorry, I do not mean to be mean. I am not saying these things just to be a jerk. I am telling you what the Bible says in plain English because I love the Lord and rejoice in the truth. I also care about you and do not want you to fall into folly. As for the Ark, God gave the Israelites specific instruction upon how his Ark should be made. Did he give the Orthodox Church specific instructions to make all kinds of gilded icons and images of men in the Bible? No, he did not. The men of the Orthodox Church have taken it upon themselves to read into the Bible what they deem fit. They want to worship God their own worldly way and have modeled themselves after the ancient Israelites to a degree. But the Israelites were God's chosen people and all those rules and ceremonies were just for them. The covenant has been fulfilled as you know. I know it sounds like I am being mean but there is no other way to convey that which I believe under God.
@@perochialjoe Surely, you are correct-there are a lot of pretenders amongst protestant denominations. But to get to my point, there is nothing wrong with paintings of people, there is nothing wrong with admiring Christians from the past. Our elders living and dead have much wisdom, though a lot of foolishness as well 😉. True wisdom only comes from the Lord. The issue is that the Orthodox make all the "veneration" part of their worship of God. God does not share attention with so-called saints, who may or may not have actually been good men. The Bible says all believers are saints, really. If you want to admire "saints" you should really be doing that on your own time, should you not? Not on God's time. You mock protestant churches but in one of their services they only pray to the Lord, they only bow to the Lord, they only read form his word. For all of its perceived virtue the Orthodox Church is quite worldly as it put men upon a pedestal that they have no business being on, not next to the Lord anyway. The Orthodox bow to men and Mary, they serve men and Mary. What am I supposed to think when I see all of this? I'm sorry, brother. It just doesn't seem right.
I have a question for the monsignor: Padre, what credible and verifiable evidence can you provide to prove Jesus was divine and the son of god? Thank you and good luck.
GREEK PROTESTANTS
I do hope you aren't suggesting that the orthodox are protestant
@kenimaticjuggallo The Greeks are. They are schismatics and apostates
Get rid of the awful music. I struggle enough to understand father with his accent.
You're free to turn the subtitles on.
just use headphones
Associating a divinity and power with objects. BLASPHEMY
That is unbiblical. The bones of Elisha raised the dead.
Christ mediated his divine power through a human body. Maybe the incarnation is a foreign idea to you?
Was it not Christ who used mud to cure the eyes of a blind man? Was it not Christ who told a supplicant to bathe in the waters? Are these not created objects?
If those are the best arguments he has for the icons - then it's really an idolatry. Plus even the saints are dead until the day of the RESSURECTION AND JUDGEMENT, so those are graven images and people are praying to dead people who are asleep in their graves, per jesus' words, and can't intercede. Also I heard many justifications of it, but at the end of the day vemersting icons IS the same as worshipping them. It looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck but you expect me to believe that its a cow just because you said so?
Can anyone actually defend the icon worship with actual scriptures and sound logic, or it can't be done? I want to believe that millions of people are not playing Russian roulette with their salvation. I really do.
Your standards for worship are extraordinarily low if you believe showing respect to somebody and asking for their prayers is worshipping them as a god. By that logic I hope you've never once asked somebody to pray for you or by your standards you're worshipping them. Also even if we went with your incorrect view that we're asking dead people to intercede for us- what about the icons of the angels?
I have a feeling no argument will ever be good enough for you because you've already made your decision and will discount whatever arguments you hear to the contrary. You clearly know better than the Church founded by the Apostles and every Saint for the last 2,000 years.
@perochialjoe have you ever seen how orthodox people venerate their icons? That is more of a worship than what Hindus are doing towards their idols. It's a duck and unless you can really give me a proper explanation why it's not - your words are not more trustworthy than my eyes.
Also all the saints are sleeping in their graves, waiting for the great judgment day. Does the Bible say otherwise anywhere in the scripture?
@perochialjoe and as a Christians we are called to give out answers when asked. If you don't know - then just say it. No need to throw shade on me and my faith or goodwill. I said I wanted to believe that it's not an idol worship, but so far I just hear bs and deflections. I grew up in a orthodox country so I do know better. I've seen it all. It's idol worship.
@@donfanto1 Yes, I have. Quite a bit. I don't think YOU have actually seen much icon veneration if that's seriously your outlook on it.
"God is not the God of the dead, He is the God of the living. For in Christ, all are alive" (Luke 20:38)
"Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (Rev 5:8)
Clearly the Bible says the Saints pray for us and are alive.
@perochialjoe did you bother to read the whole chapter or just that one verse? That is the part where Jesus is being challenged with tricky question by saducees who denied the resurrection. And the account which you quoted which Jesus said was concerning ressurection. It's clear as day and can not be misinterpreted unless you're doing it willingly.
So brother, are you ignorant or malicious?
Why do you keep avoiding my questions if you're the one who has the right answers? Mind you, I'm not trying to challenge your faith. Only your strongheadedness. In fact I'm looking for faith to be shared with me, yet you're talking to me spitefully like a pharisee. Unable to provide scriptural answers and falling back onto the authority of the traditions instead of the authority of God's word. Quite ironic for you to quote that verse. Come to your senses brother and answer me truthfully. Do you know or do you not know the answer to my question?
if you worship GOD as a being in his completeness earthly manifestation of jesus as logos aside. then youre commiiting idol worship as well
3:10 nasty lie