I upgraded my 2003 TC88 to the Screamin Eagle cam chest and 203 cams. Pinion side runout was right under .003. Decided against gear driven since it’s not a Timken bottom end and could possibly develop more runout.
That year had the solid bottom end and much better crank assembly. If they would of just left the crank and bearings alone with the hydraulic system the twin cam would of been the next Evo.
Cam chain system works just fine with hydraulic tensioners. Very expensive to upgrade the crank to run gears for very little benefit IMHO. Cam plate/oil pump combo is a nice upgrade either way for a happy bike!
I personally like the hydraulic system, with gears your crank also has to remain in spec and if it ever comes out of spec it can be a disaster with a gear setup.
I agree, upgrade plate, oil pump, hydraulic tensioners, and while it’s apart, upgrade/replace and rollers/bearings. Also replace the chain. I had all this done to my 02 FatBoy a couple years ago. It had about 29k miles. Outside shoe was def worn and inside was almost worn out. Caught it in time. Dealer asked if I wanted to upgrade the cam a bit while it was apart? I choose to remain stock cam since I’m not a racer. Technician was really impressed how smooth and no wear was visible on the cam.👍 He said keep doing what ur doing regarding oil changes. He did also recommend to replace the lifter tappets while he was in there. So after a few days at dealer and about $1700, I figured my bike was upgraded with any parts it should have had in the first place. Put about 2k since then, runs like a clock. Slow and steady wins the race 😉 Just my two cents. PS: I remember an old timer told me back in 02 when I bought the bike, to NOT get it geared. He said if you do get it geared, the weak spot is no longer the chain…it will be something more expensive to fix. I heard that a few times over the years, and took it to heart 👍
You only want to do this once . so start from the beginning and send your bottom end rotating assembly to Precision balance Company of Indianapolis Indiana. Then you can install a backing plate for a gear set from FUELING ..get your cam and gears from $&$..yea this will cost maga dollars. But your chain should last long enough to save up for the ultimate ...or just buy a 100 cubic inch evo from $&$ for about the same cubic dollars vs pounds of fun
I've been reading through the comments and it makes me mad to know HD nailed it with the early twin cams with the exception of the cam chain tensioners. This was easily resolved with hydraulic tensioners or gears. Then they screw up and cheap out on the crank and ruin the foundation of the entire engine.
@@GixxerFoo Sorry to get off-topic. Runout in 2001 was less than .002 flash forward six years and in 2007 they consider .012 "acceptable". How could they allow those engines to leave their factory. Makes me wonder at times if they care at all about their customers and quality.
@@kerrylewis2581 They dont care because their brainless fanboys will still pay thousands and thousands on 'upgrades' just to make the engine run and perform how it should have from the factory. pathetic really
I have an 03 EG Standard. Put gear driven cams in at about 40 thousand miles and it was the Best thing I ever did. Run out was fine so it was a no brainer. I did the gear driven cams, lifters and put in adjustable push rods at the same time. Today there is over 125 thousand on it and have had NO issue at all. Love the sound it makes too.
That's why I bought a 2002 Foo. It's cheaper and easier to upgrade the cam plate which you'll be doing anyway on a build rather than replacing the crank, which if you're doing that than it doesn't matter because you're most likely doing a Stroker. Also as an honorable mention lol let's not forget about the 05 heads...BOOOOO!! Many will disagree but personally, the twin cam is my favorite engine, built, carb and a tune that loves to rev is magic to my ears coming out of a 2 into 1 RB LSR. Great video
You make a great point about the heads, they aren't all the same through the years on the twin cam! They did the same thing with the sportster, depending on your year a big bore upgrade won't do much good for you and you have to work the heads over.
I'm jealous of those who own a carbureted 01 or 02 Twin Cam. I modified dozens and they were all less than .002 in runout and are perfect for gear cams, head work, and increased displacement. I've also never seen one crank move on any 01 or 02. It would take some major abuse to screw up early TC cranks.
I too have done gear drive cams on early TC motors with good results ! I have seen a few 02 to 04 motors come out of true but as you said they were run hard they usually break teeth of the gears & quit running ! Don't know if you have tried it but I have trued TC flywheels & welded them with good results !
If Harley would of left the bottom end alone and just changed to hydraulic tensioners the TC would of been the next Evo. But Harley is notorious for creating another problem to solve one.
Great video man. you know what you're talking about . In Finland we trust s&s. Fxd 95cui 100.5hp 154nm rear tyre s&s💪🏾 I order s&s camplate kit for this engine from usa. Moikka moi👊🏽
To make sure you get the right gear cam kit all one has to do is call S&S motors to get all the right parts like I did and my 88 runs like a top for the last 8 years. Gear cams are the way to go so you don’t have to crack the case again, but don’t go cheap and get everything new including the cam plate, oil pump, shaft, lifters, and screws.
I got lucky. Bought an 06 road king, and the runout was 1 thousands... checked it 5 times in disbelief. S&S cam plate,, oil pump, S&S lifters, and 509G gear drive cams... with a Powervision, and many tune adjustment......., it runs great and the chatter sound I had is gone. Hoping it lasts a long time....
just did it , zippers chain tensioners , had crank trued n welded , so far so good . recomended at roeder speed shp in monroeville ohio . GREAT REPUTATION for performance builds ...
Always love your posts man, but as I have always said this is the best engine Harley ever made and then ruined it with cheap cost cutting. Keep posting though and I’m looking at a winter rip down, it haven’t quite decided yet how to go. Cams for sure and maybe a bigger bore, but the issue of either hydraulic or gears bugs me. Mine is a 2004 so smack bang in the middle kind of thing. I think it will be a compromise in the end. Keep posting bro, you have great insight and knowledge.
Thank you, l appreciate it! Twin cams an excellent engine, down side is you gotta replace the weak links the factory installed. Once get one built they are pretty bullet proof.
These little factoids pretty much sums up what I've been saying about the twincams all along. All the way up to the evo, the factory spec on the crank was 2 tenths of a thousands or less. 2 thousands was when it was time for a rebuild. Harley sure got sloppy with the twincam. Just my opinion though. If I ever had another twincam, it would be a 2001 or 2002 with a gear assembly. Great video topic, bro.
Thank you! You've got those Evo's now, best "modern" Harley engine they made. Early twin cams were solid, but like you said they just got sloppy with the twin cam.
So looking at a project bike. Rolling thunder frame. Probably a rubber mounted soft tail. Planning a knucklehead if it'll make the power I want. Was thinking an Evo if the knuckle won't do what I want power wise. 6 or 7 speed transmission. Thinking of fuel injection and water cooled. Maybe turboed. Might do some upgrades after I get it sorted in a basic set up. Anything you'd recommend? Basically gonna be like a pimped sportster with a slightly different suspension set up. Wide rear tire 240mm probably. Kick start plus electric ignition. Trying to build a reliable bobber.
Exactly right on all points. I would say that in most cases upgrading the chain system will do the trick. It's cheaper and easier, and will work just fine. I think a lot of shops try to sell the gear drive setup just to make more money when it's really not necessary. I have a feeling that some of them also overlook excessive run-out.
Sadly there are some dishonest shops that will setup a gear drive on a wobbly pinion. It will work, for a while anyhow. My biggest gear drive concern is pinion is good at install, but riding it hard, miles and time wears on the crank. If the crank develops excessive run out later you can have a disaster.
I would like to thank gixxerfoo for all the info and guidance on upgrading my 03 road king twin can 88 I had to go back to the original set up as far as the tensioners but I did up grade my bearings pushrods and lifters now I know what's up cause when I bought my bike 4 years ago I had no idea about any of that if you are going to buy a twin can 88 99 -06 I would strongly recommend you research before you buy like gixxer says I got lucky with mine for a change but it can go south on your ass quickly
Thank you, I really appreciate it! This is exactly why I do this, I've seen too many people buy a bike and have issues. I'm very happy to hear you got your bike lined out!
I took your advice about my 05 Soft Tail Deuse that has only 10400 miles on it.I went in and opened up the cam chest and the chain tensioners looked good but I just went ahead and upgraded to a hydraulic with the chain set up the crank did have .3000s run out but the cam side had just .2000th run out.As I installed the oil pump and cam plate I turned the rear wheel as I started to tighten up all the bolts to spec.I figured that way I wasn't putting added pressure on 1 side of the new oil pump.Was well worth doing the upgrade.
Have to say... you are my go to when it comes to my bikes... '94 EVO Softail Standard & '2000 model 88 Twin Cam Electra Glide... Your videos are very informational & the way you explain them makes it easy to understand Thank you.
Thanks, I picked up a '99 FXDL with 25k dry miles on. It's got good old CV carb. Checked the tensioner shoes and they will definitely make it till winter here in the UK.
Thanks as always for the great info. Put Feuling conversion cam plate, hydraulic tensioners and conversion cams in my 03 Dyna. Was at 60k miles... didn't happen to check pinion run out... but it's running great!
@@GixxerFoo that is the plan mate, your channel has been extremely helpful and definitely stirred me towards the twin cam instead of m8. Quite a lot more shaky than my sportster but god it pulls so good.
I wonder why HD couldn’t do a tensioner like on a car’s serpentine setup.. a strong wheel seems like it’d alleviate the many issues of their tensioners
Buell actually had a tensioner like that on the drive belt, but honestly Harley's timing chain tensioner system in the engine is very similar to what is used in car engines.
So happy my FXDX is an '01. Run out was less than .002 so I went with screaming Eagle cam chest, high flow oil pump and gear drive with .510 cams. Runs great. I would avoid '03-'06 like the plague
Have an 03 Dyna. had the oil pump cam plate update with hydraulic tensioners at 45K.. bike just turned 80K...I've been told the hydraulics last twice as long as the spring type so my calculations is I'm good till 135K ( I bought the bike in 2014 with 13K on it.and have been running synthetic since 20K)
I wish I knew about all this before I bought a big twin or I probably would have gotten another Sportster. Too late now I got the bike and I already had to put the money into it.
The Sportster is indestructible from the factory, literally almost perfect. Twin Cam is a great motor, just sucks you gotta fix where the factory left it lacking.
Nothing like a Sportster for reliability. I had a 95 and sold it with 50K. Stator bolt loosened once. Only issue ever. My 96S has 30K of flawless running
Why not go with gear driven cams and a hydraulic tensioner on the outside cam drive? You don't have to worry about runout and if I am not wrong you can run cams with higher lift than the chain driven ones.
Cool video, learned a bit of new/good info. Question, I'm a recent new owner of a 2011 FXDWG, is there anything that I should maybe look out for? Currently weeping from what looks like my primary outer seal.
Seals as they age will leak, they aren't too bad to change. But the 2011 is pretty solid, well past some of the issues the 96 had up to 09. As with any twin cam they run a little hot, but a oil cooler and good tune will take care of that.
Great summary! I have a 2003 RK and at 20k miles the inner and outer shoes looked good, so i feel good for another 10K miles. I want to stay with the stock cam profile but move to hydraulic. It sounds like I need a new cam plate with conversion cams made to the stock profile. Is that change possible? Does HD make stock profile conversion cams?
‘02 Road King, between .002-.003 runout, put in S&S 509 gear cams this winter and have ridden about 800 miles...prob gonna take ‘em back out this winter and go with 509 chain drive. So far not really digging the sound or feel of the motor, not what I was expecting...hard to describe.
@@paulfiore7083 I know, it doesn't make sense. The runout was good and the backlash measured good too. I'm really bummed 'cause I wanted to do it for a long time. I don't know what I would do different? I'm open to suggestions...
So, this is what I am looking at for the winter of 2022/23. Upgrading my cam to a higher torque one. I am really torn between gear or chain. I have no idea how to measure the crank runout, nor do I have the tools to do so. As much as I dont want to, it may be done at a shop that winter, and not by me. I wont know which one to order until they tear it down though. I would like to go gear driven-and am hoping the tolerances are OK for that.
What year is your bike? If you have a 99 to 02 runouts are really good, if it's 03 and up chain is always a safe bet. But if you runout is really bad upwards of five thousandths or more you would likely feel it.
Got an '02 fxd with around 14k on the clock the other day as my first harley. Just gotta figure out what to do to make it a solid runner forever. Not trying to race it or anything.
Once you upgrade that cam chest it's a really solid motor! It's got the Timken bottom end and a solid crank, upgrade to gears or a 07 and later cam plate with hydraulic tensioners and that 07 up oil pump is a great start!
Mine's an '01 with timkin bearings. You're in luck as you also have Timkins and can probably run gears after you measure run out, which I did. I had Screamin Eagle cam chest and oil pump installed too. Was $2,500 but should last me forever. Also installed .510 S&S cams which made a huge difference. I'll go with 95" big bore when time for top end work
Oh btw..., having my 2005 15th anniv fatboy,bottom end rebuilt by my indy up here in NY. getting s&s crank/flywheel, ( the runout was 005 on the gear side and 007 on the main shaft)fueling hp cam plate and oil pump, lifters,gasket set. and labor for 3,900$ what do you think?? Im so psyched.....ever since i did the andrews 37 g drive,adj pushrods, 4 bearings,.. it sounded like a diesel cummings, no joke!!!!.k new something was wrong...3 mechanics later. found the right one. bike will be quite right??? im just hoping! ps....your thoughts on the fueling hp cam plate/oil pump??? i asked my indy for s&s plate, he said...its more for REAL HP...like racing! im just an avert rider ya know ,foo??!!
Feuling is a solid product, they are really high quality. $3900 would be high for a job like that here in Oklahoma, l would definently ask around for some comparison quotes. But you can't put a price on having it done by the right person who gets it right.
I have an 02 Dyna with 50,000 on it. Still has the original tensioners in it. They are due for replacement soon. I have a "theory?" about why these wore out quickly. I think that if the engine is run at too low and rpm, the chains develop chain snatch. Similar to a drive chain when running at to low an engine rpm. On a drive chain, it jerks back and forth. I'm thinking that this might happen to the cam chains too at low speed. If that's the case, the chain slap will load and unload the chain spring tensioner and make it slam up and down.. And HD guys do love to lug their engines down way low... I don't. Perhaps that's why mine is still OK? Your thoughts?
It's a very viable explanation for what is going on, especially if you got 50K out of a set of original spring tensioners. That's very impressive and lends a lot of credit to what you're saying. No ones ever precisely determined the cause but I would for sure add that to list of what happened with those!
My 2000 wide glide now has 70,000 miles on it, still has the original shoe tensioner, I kept checking it every 20,000 miles, it looks like I will probably make it to 100,000 miles, it's been a really reliable motor so far, my 1500 Vulcan broke a piston rod at 45,000 miles not worth fixing.
That's impressive on a early Twin Cam, some bikes never had an issue like that. That's the sad part about the metric bikes, it literally cost more than they are worth to repair them. Parts can be hard to find since they only support them for 10 years after they discontinue the models.
Would you speak to the difference between crank runout in the bike, and on the stand. It would really help Those of us who don't know. I think it's called apparent runout. See you next time Gixx.
CVO Road King had the same tensioner system and the crank shaft was a pressed assembly like on the 88. Sadly on the Screamin Eagle motors they still used the factory cam plate and other stock components instead of the Screamin Eagle parts.
There always a chance they can develop more run out as miles pile on the stock crank. That's what has always concerned me about gear conversion on a stock crank. A good solid rebuilt crank or aftermarket is the way to go in my opinion for a gear conversion.
I have a 2000 Fatboy (original owner) with a stock 88B engine, and 54K on the speedo. The outer shoe appears to be about half-worn. Can't see the inner shoe. The outer shoe is easy enough to replace. The inner shoe is major work. I wonder why HD didn't go with gear drive at least on the cam side of the plate.
@@paulfiore7083 i don't have one. Would machining gears on the end of the cams really be more expensive than the chain and tensioner system? I don't know. Or, maybe they tried it, and it turned out to be noisier than they wanted.
@@ephraimgarrett4727 it was the EPA that was measuring sound. Harley wanted louder exhaust note so they quieted the cam timing system. It IS more quiet but has more reliability issues, some resulting in catastrophic engine damage
Going with chain drive you can have pretty high runout, but you'd want to stick with the OE cam plate. Harley really seems to be fine with up to ten thousandths. Way to much in my opinion and that's with the stock cam plate. The issue is the race cam plates really need to be five thousandths or less. But you can use the Feuling OE cam plate, much better unit that stock and it will allow you to have a crank run out higher than 5 thousandths. But anything 5 thousandths or less you're golden with a race plate, high volume oil pump and hydraulic tensioners.
A good aftermarket cam and a cam plate upgrade is hard to beat, you can really get a nice bump that way. The chain drive is a lot less work and you don't have to worry about the run out being super tight.
I've got a 2014 Firefighter Street Glide with the Hydraulic cam chain set up (103) High Output motor ,bought new that now has 38,500 miles on it . But my 2005 Softail Deuce( bought second hand with 17,000 miles on it) I ran till 20,000 miles then had the crank run out checked . With all the calculations checked I had the 0.003 to run gears. My shoes weren't that worn but I heard some fried at 10,000 miles some still going strong at 90,000 !!!!! A real crap shoot. SO I went with the FULL S+S Gear drive kit , cam plate , high volume oil pump, adjustable push rods ECT ECT with 509 Gear Drive cams. SO Far with a few thousand miles on it and 👍( say no more because I'm a superstitious bastard)😂😂😂Pricy yes BUT Thank God I'm not worrying about those F en plastic shoes anymore.
I agree. I did same thing. Things like this make me wish HD had a little more Japanese quality in their make up. Try to find an issue with a Honda 1800!
I guess I'll go with the fueling cam chest, figured with that many miles I better go with the hydraulic tentioners instead of the gear drive. I ve always changed the oil all the way around every 3k with syn3
Twin Cams are good. They have some "issues", but it's not that tragic. There are plenty of Twin Cams still running, and that alone attests they're not junk engines.
I upgraded my 2003 TC88 to the Screamin Eagle cam chest and 203 cams. Pinion side runout was right under .003. Decided against gear driven since it’s not a Timken bottom end and could possibly develop more runout.
I installed S&S gears in my 2000 FatBoy. Traded it in with 85,000 miles and never had an issue. That motor was outstanding.
That year had the solid bottom end and much better crank assembly. If they would of just left the crank and bearings alone with the hydraulic system the twin cam would of been the next Evo.
Cam chain system works just fine with hydraulic tensioners. Very expensive to upgrade the crank to run gears for very little benefit IMHO. Cam plate/oil pump combo is a nice upgrade either way for a happy bike!
I personally like the hydraulic system, with gears your crank also has to remain in spec and if it ever comes out of spec it can be a disaster with a gear setup.
I agree, upgrade plate, oil pump, hydraulic tensioners, and while it’s apart, upgrade/replace and rollers/bearings. Also replace the chain. I had all this done to my 02 FatBoy a couple years ago. It had about 29k miles. Outside shoe was def worn and inside was almost worn out. Caught it in time. Dealer asked if I wanted to upgrade the cam a bit while it was apart? I choose to remain stock cam since I’m not a racer. Technician was really impressed how smooth and no wear was visible on the cam.👍 He said keep doing what ur doing regarding oil changes. He did also recommend to replace the lifter tappets while he was in there. So after a few days at dealer and about $1700, I figured my bike was upgraded with any parts it should have had in the first place. Put about 2k since then, runs like a clock. Slow and steady wins the race 😉 Just my two cents.
PS: I remember an old timer told me back in 02 when I bought the bike, to NOT get it geared. He said if you do get it geared, the weak spot is no longer the chain…it will be something more expensive to fix. I heard that a few times over the years, and took it to heart 👍
You only want to do this once . so start from the beginning and send your bottom end rotating assembly to Precision balance Company of Indianapolis Indiana. Then you can install a backing plate for a gear set from FUELING ..get your cam and gears from $&$..yea this will cost maga dollars. But your chain should last long enough to save up for the ultimate ...or just buy a 100 cubic inch evo from $&$ for about the same cubic dollars vs pounds of fun
You're right, but it should have come from factory with gear drive and welded or bolted flywheel
I've been reading through the comments and it makes me mad to know HD nailed it with the early twin cams with the exception of the cam chain tensioners. This was easily resolved with hydraulic tensioners or gears. Then they screw up and cheap out on the crank and ruin the foundation of the entire engine.
Harley is notorious for fixing one problem and creating another.
@@GixxerFoo Sorry to get off-topic. Runout in 2001 was less than .002 flash forward six years and in 2007 they consider .012 "acceptable". How could they allow those engines to leave their factory. Makes me wonder at times if they care at all about their customers and quality.
@@kerrylewis2581 a Honda engineer would commit Hari Kari before letting that engine be put in a bike
@@kerrylewis2581 They dont care because their brainless fanboys will still pay thousands and thousands on 'upgrades' just to make the engine run and perform how it should have from the factory. pathetic really
@@EazyDuz18 I think most will never know about the issue because they only ride 1,000 miles or less per year.
I have an 03 EG Standard. Put gear driven cams in at about 40 thousand miles and it was the Best thing I ever did. Run out was fine so it was a no brainer. I did the gear driven cams, lifters and put in adjustable push rods at the same time. Today there is over 125 thousand on it and have had NO issue at all. Love the sound it makes too.
That's why I bought a 2002 Foo. It's cheaper and easier to upgrade the cam plate which you'll be doing anyway on a build rather than replacing the crank, which if you're doing that than it doesn't matter because you're most likely doing a Stroker. Also as an honorable mention lol let's not forget about the 05 heads...BOOOOO!! Many will disagree but personally, the twin cam is my favorite engine, built, carb and a tune that loves to rev is magic to my ears coming out of a 2 into 1 RB LSR. Great video
You make a great point about the heads, they aren't all the same through the years on the twin cam! They did the same thing with the sportster, depending on your year a big bore upgrade won't do much good for you and you have to work the heads over.
So glad I found a low low milage 99 EVO heritage ,I can live with changing out lifters at 40,000 miles .
It's worth it! Late model Evo's are hard to come by and the price is going up!
Excellent channel ,you get right to business ,thank you .
I'm jealous of those who own a carbureted 01 or 02 Twin Cam. I modified dozens and they were all less than .002 in runout and are perfect for gear cams, head work, and increased displacement. I've also never seen one crank move on any 01 or 02. It would take some major abuse to screw up early TC cranks.
I too have done gear drive cams on early TC motors with good results ! I have seen a few 02 to 04 motors come out of true but as you said they were run hard they usually break teeth of the gears & quit running ! Don't know if you have tried it but I have trued TC flywheels & welded them with good results !
@@leonardstanford1877 Only installed. Darkhorse and R&R is where I go when a crank is needed.
If Harley would of left the bottom end alone and just changed to hydraulic tensioners the TC would of been the next Evo. But Harley is notorious for creating another problem to solve one.
Thanks! I have an 01 with gear drive. A lot of these comments were scaring me!
Great video man. you know what you're talking about . In Finland we trust s&s. Fxd 95cui 100.5hp 154nm rear tyre s&s💪🏾 I order s&s camplate kit for this engine from usa. Moikka moi👊🏽
To make sure you get the right gear cam kit all one has to do is call S&S motors to get all the right parts like I did and my 88 runs like a top for the last 8 years. Gear cams are the way to go so you don’t have to crack the case again, but don’t go cheap and get everything new including the cam plate, oil pump, shaft, lifters, and screws.
That's a great point! New parts wear out old parts!
I got lucky. Bought an 06 road king, and the runout was 1 thousands... checked it 5 times in disbelief. S&S cam plate,, oil pump, S&S lifters, and 509G gear drive cams... with a Powervision, and many tune adjustment......., it runs great and the chatter sound I had is gone. Hoping it lasts a long time....
Really?! Is that the stock crank or has someone been into that some point in time?
just did it , zippers chain tensioners , had crank trued n welded , so far so good . recomended at roeder speed shp in monroeville ohio . GREAT REPUTATION for performance builds ...
Congrats on the new build! That's exciting news with all summer ahead of us! Did you do a cam upgrade too?
Always love your posts man, but as I have always said this is the best engine Harley ever made and then ruined it with cheap cost cutting. Keep posting though and I’m looking at a winter rip down, it haven’t quite decided yet how to go. Cams for sure and maybe a bigger bore, but the issue of either hydraulic or gears bugs me. Mine is a 2004 so smack bang in the middle kind of thing. I think it will be a compromise in the end. Keep posting bro, you have great insight and knowledge.
Thank you, l appreciate it! Twin cams an excellent engine, down side is you gotta replace the weak links the factory installed. Once get one built they are pretty bullet proof.
These little factoids pretty much sums up what I've been saying about the twincams all along. All the way up to the evo, the factory spec on the crank was 2 tenths of a thousands or less. 2 thousands was when it was time for a rebuild. Harley sure got sloppy with the twincam. Just my opinion though. If I ever had another twincam, it would be a 2001 or 2002 with a gear assembly. Great video topic, bro.
Thank you! You've got those Evo's now, best "modern" Harley engine they made. Early twin cams were solid, but like you said they just got sloppy with the twin cam.
So looking at a project bike. Rolling thunder frame. Probably a rubber mounted soft tail.
Planning a knucklehead if it'll make the power I want. Was thinking an Evo if the knuckle won't do what I want power wise. 6 or 7 speed transmission. Thinking of fuel injection and water cooled. Maybe turboed.
Might do some upgrades after I get it sorted in a basic set up. Anything you'd recommend? Basically gonna be like a pimped sportster with a slightly different suspension set up. Wide rear tire 240mm probably.
Kick start plus electric ignition. Trying to build a reliable bobber.
06 ultra. Went with hydraulic tensioner and upgraded the cam plate. Money well spent.
It takes a lot of the worry out of that 88!
Right on the money ! You did not mention their is some horse power to change to gear drive or hydraulic tensioners over the spring tensioners !
That's true, you get much more accurate timing with gears!
I'm pretty lucky so far. 2000 with 18,000 and tensioners still look very good...for now anyway.
It is such a crap shoot on those tensioners, some blew motors from failed tensioners at 15k and other ran towards 100k with no problem.
@@GixxerFoo I it might have something to do with which manufacturing facility produced the spring/quality control issue. Just a guess though.
Exactly right on all points. I would say that in most cases upgrading the chain system will do the trick. It's cheaper and easier, and will work just fine. I think a lot of shops try to sell the gear drive setup just to make more money when it's really not necessary. I have a feeling that some of them also overlook excessive run-out.
Sadly there are some dishonest shops that will setup a gear drive on a wobbly pinion. It will work, for a while anyhow. My biggest gear drive concern is pinion is good at install, but riding it hard, miles and time wears on the crank. If the crank develops excessive run out later you can have a disaster.
I would like to thank gixxerfoo for all the info and guidance on upgrading my 03 road king twin can 88 I had to go back to the original set up as far as the tensioners but I did up grade my bearings pushrods and lifters now I know what's up cause when I bought my bike 4 years ago I had no idea about any of that if you are going to buy a twin can 88 99 -06 I would strongly recommend you research before you buy like gixxer says I got lucky with mine for a change but it can go south on your ass quickly
Thank you, I really appreciate it! This is exactly why I do this, I've seen too many people buy a bike and have issues. I'm very happy to hear you got your bike lined out!
I took your advice about my 05 Soft Tail Deuse that has only 10400 miles on it.I went in and opened up the cam chest and the chain tensioners looked good but I just went ahead and upgraded to a hydraulic with the chain set up the crank did have .3000s run out but the cam side had just .2000th run out.As I installed the oil pump and cam plate I turned the rear wheel as I started to tighten up all the bolts to spec.I figured that way I wasn't putting added pressure on 1 side of the new oil pump.Was well worth doing the upgrade.
That's awesome! You'll get years of trouble free riding out of that engine now!
Have to say... you are my go to when it comes to my bikes...
'94 EVO Softail Standard & '2000 model 88 Twin Cam Electra Glide...
Your videos are very informational & the way you explain them
makes it easy to understand Thank you.
I appreciate it! You've got the good years of the Harley motors in your bikes!
Thanks, I picked up a '99 FXDL with 25k dry miles on. It's got good old CV carb. Checked the tensioner shoes and they will definitely make it till winter here in the UK.
That's awesome to hear! You can't beat a CV carb, you can freshen those up and they are good to go.
How more i here about the tc,how more i love my 84 fxr evo.
Greets from the Netherlands
That is awesome you've got a Evo over in the Netherlands, I imagine you've got some nice country to cruise in over there!
@@GixxerFoo yes i live in the north,nice roads here its getting cold now winter is coming,less bike riding.
Thanks as always for the great info. Put Feuling conversion cam plate, hydraulic tensioners and conversion cams in my 03 Dyna. Was at 60k miles... didn't happen to check pinion run out... but it's running great!
You should be good using the conversion cams, it's worth it to get that later style oil pump!
bought today 04 fxdx so very helpful to see this come up on my feed.
Those are awesome bike! The 88 is a solid motor, just getting some hydraulic tensioners in there and the newer oil pump is all it needs.
@@GixxerFoo that is the plan mate, your channel has been extremely helpful and definitely stirred me towards the twin cam instead of m8. Quite a lot more shaky than my sportster but god it pulls so good.
I've got an 01 FXDX and did gears and cam. You'll love it
Guess I got lucky. Mines a 99 tc88. I was looking at a set of gears. When I replace the cams.
The 99 is an excellent candidate for gears, stout bottom end and a solid crank!
I have an 01 WG run out was .001 put S&S 509G in it runs great ...
I don't doubt it with the tapered bearing bottom end, they are stout!
Thanks Gixer
Excellent vid as usual nice clear and easy to understand.
All the best from NZ
Thank you! I hope it was helpful!
Well done as always sir.
Thank you, I appreciate it!
I wonder why HD couldn’t do a tensioner like on a car’s serpentine setup.. a strong wheel seems like it’d alleviate the many issues of their tensioners
Buell actually had a tensioner like that on the drive belt, but honestly Harley's timing chain tensioner system in the engine is very similar to what is used in car engines.
I measured my pinion shaft three times to be sure on my2001 deuce and it was .0007. yup gear drive here I come.
So happy my FXDX is an '01. Run out was less than .002 so I went with screaming Eagle cam chest, high flow oil pump and gear drive with .510 cams. Runs great. I would avoid '03-'06 like the plague
That's awesome! Those older bikes with the Timkens are solid!
Did you notice how much faster it accelerates with the geared cams? Mine really came alive
@@Mm-ik9uq Absolutely! This winter I plan on doing 95" kit with 10:1 pistons
Have an 03 Dyna. had the oil pump cam plate update with hydraulic tensioners at 45K.. bike just turned 80K...I've been told the hydraulics last twice as long as the spring type so my calculations is I'm good till 135K ( I bought the bike in 2014 with 13K on it.and have been running synthetic since 20K)
Good oil and hydraulic tensioners last a long time, about 40K on the hydraulics. With good oil and changed often I've seen them last well past 40K.
I wish I knew about all this before I bought a big twin or I probably would have gotten another Sportster.
Too late now I got the bike and I already had to put the money into it.
The Sportster is indestructible from the factory, literally almost perfect. Twin Cam is a great motor, just sucks you gotta fix where the factory left it lacking.
Nothing like a Sportster for reliability. I had a 95 and sold it with 50K. Stator bolt loosened once. Only issue ever. My 96S has 30K of flawless running
Hey bro. Hope you an family doing great. Barry Northern Virginia. 1972 flh
Doing well, hope your doing well also!
Great video !
Thank you!
love the info
Glad it was helpful!
Why not go with gear driven cams and a hydraulic tensioner on the outside cam drive?
You don't have to worry about runout and if I am not wrong you can run cams with higher lift than the chain driven ones.
I've never seen anyone run that setup, good point!
Cool video, learned a bit of new/good info. Question, I'm a recent new owner of a 2011 FXDWG, is there anything that I should maybe look out for? Currently weeping from what looks like my primary outer seal.
Seals as they age will leak, they aren't too bad to change. But the 2011 is pretty solid, well past some of the issues the 96 had up to 09. As with any twin cam they run a little hot, but a oil cooler and good tune will take care of that.
Great summary! I have a 2003 RK and at 20k miles the inner and outer shoes looked good, so i feel good for another 10K miles. I want to stay with the stock cam profile but move to hydraulic. It sounds like I need a new cam plate with conversion cams made to the stock profile. Is that change possible? Does HD make stock profile conversion cams?
You can upgrade to a cam plate with hydraulic tensioners using the stock cams through Screamin' Eagle.
‘02 Road King, between .002-.003 runout, put in S&S 509 gear cams this winter and have ridden about 800 miles...prob gonna take ‘em back out this winter and go with 509 chain drive. So far not really digging the sound or feel of the motor, not what I was expecting...hard to describe.
Sometimes that happens, it does change the feel of the motor. When you're really in tune with your bike you will notice that, just been my experience.
Something isn't right. 8 just put .510 cams and gear drive on my '01 and there's no funny sounds or feelings. Runs BEAUTIFUL
@@paulfiore7083 I know, it doesn't make sense. The runout was good and the backlash measured good too. I'm really bummed 'cause I wanted to do it for a long time. I don't know what I would do different? I'm open to suggestions...
@@houseofstylz man, I really wish I could think of why this would happen. I'd be interested to know what you eventually do
So, this is what I am looking at for the winter of 2022/23. Upgrading my cam to a higher torque one. I am really torn between gear or chain. I have no idea how to measure the crank runout, nor do I have the tools to do so. As much as I dont want to, it may be done at a shop that winter, and not by me. I wont know which one to order until they tear it down though. I would like to go gear driven-and am hoping the tolerances are OK for that.
What year is your bike? If you have a 99 to 02 runouts are really good, if it's 03 and up chain is always a safe bet. But if you runout is really bad upwards of five thousandths or more you would likely feel it.
@@GixxerFoo a '19 FLHT
Got an '02 fxd with around 14k on the clock the other day as my first harley. Just gotta figure out what to do to make it a solid runner forever. Not trying to race it or anything.
Once you upgrade that cam chest it's a really solid motor! It's got the Timken bottom end and a solid crank, upgrade to gears or a 07 and later cam plate with hydraulic tensioners and that 07 up oil pump is a great start!
Mine's an '01 with timkin bearings. You're in luck as you also have Timkins and can probably run gears after you measure run out, which I did. I had Screamin Eagle cam chest and oil pump installed too. Was $2,500 but should last me forever. Also installed .510 S&S cams which made a huge difference. I'll go with 95" big bore when time for top end work
Amazing how someone can retain all that knowledge.....now I have a headache! Awesome info as usual, sir....thank you very much.
😄😂 thank you, I just spent a lot of time in the back of the shop growing up and listening to grumpy old guys talk.
@@GixxerFoo i wish i had you as my local Indy, here in NY,brother. love your vids.
Oh btw..., having my 2005 15th anniv fatboy,bottom end rebuilt by my indy up here in NY. getting s&s crank/flywheel, ( the runout was 005 on the gear side and 007 on the main shaft)fueling hp cam plate and oil pump, lifters,gasket set. and labor for 3,900$ what do you think??
Im so psyched.....ever since i did the andrews 37 g drive,adj pushrods, 4 bearings,.. it sounded like a diesel cummings, no joke!!!!.k new something was wrong...3 mechanics later. found the right one. bike will be quite right??? im just hoping! ps....your thoughts on the fueling hp cam plate/oil pump??? i asked my indy for s&s plate, he said...its more for REAL HP...like racing! im just an avert rider ya know ,foo??!!
Feuling is a solid product, they are really high quality. $3900 would be high for a job like that here in Oklahoma, l would definently ask around for some comparison quotes. But you can't put a price on having it done by the right person who gets it right.
If you buy gears you don't need to change cam plate and oil pump because oil pressure will be unused without hydraulic cam tensioners.
You're not using oil pressure just for cam chain tensioners. The upgraded oil pump will greatly increase pressure at idle and greatly reduce wear
I have an 02 Dyna with 50,000 on it. Still has the original tensioners in it. They are due for replacement soon. I have a "theory?" about why these wore out quickly. I think that if the engine is run at too low and rpm, the chains develop chain snatch. Similar to a drive chain when running at to low an engine rpm. On a drive chain, it jerks back and forth. I'm thinking that this might happen to the cam chains too at low speed. If that's the case, the chain slap will load and unload the chain spring tensioner and make it slam up and down.. And HD guys do love to lug their engines down way low... I don't. Perhaps that's why mine is still OK? Your thoughts?
It's a very viable explanation for what is going on, especially if you got 50K out of a set of original spring tensioners. That's very impressive and lends a lot of credit to what you're saying. No ones ever precisely determined the cause but I would for sure add that to list of what happened with those!
My 2000 wide glide now has 70,000 miles on it, still has the original shoe tensioner, I kept checking it every 20,000 miles, it looks like I will probably make it to 100,000 miles, it's been a really reliable motor so far, my 1500 Vulcan broke a piston rod at 45,000 miles not worth fixing.
That's impressive on a early Twin Cam, some bikes never had an issue like that. That's the sad part about the metric bikes, it literally cost more than they are worth to repair them. Parts can be hard to find since they only support them for 10 years after they discontinue the models.
Would you speak to the difference between crank runout in the bike, and on the stand. It would really help Those of us who don't know. I think it's called apparent runout. See you next time Gixx.
Hey that's a great idea! Cause Harley allows for .012 in the bike, but on a truing stand that number is much much lower.
02 rk .003 s&s hydraulic cam plate and cams
09 dyna .003 stock plate woods cams
I feel lucky lol. Keep up the great vids
Thank you! I am not shocked the 02 RK had good runout but the 2009 just goes to show not all the cranks were way out of spec.
I gotta admit ...i was nervous going into the 09
There's a lot of stories of issues but overall a majority of the bikes were good to go.
Good information, what about a 2003 RK CVO with a 103? Can you advise on this motor, Thanks
CVO Road King had the same tensioner system and the crank shaft was a pressed assembly like on the 88. Sadly on the Screamin Eagle motors they still used the factory cam plate and other stock components instead of the Screamin Eagle parts.
@@GixxerFoo go figure, I thought I may have dodged the Harley bullet. Thanks for the quick response
Who makes those conversion cams ? I have not heard about those & have a shop bike that could make use of those !
Andrews and Feuling makes them, it will allow you to use that later style cam plate with a much better oil pump.
Would you opt to have your crank rebuilt to run gears or just upgrade to a hydraulic system with the race cam plate?
Pin and weld the crank all day
I would rather buy a new crank from S&S or Darkhorse.
I upgraded my ‘06 Fat Boy to a hydraulic system (Screamin Eagle cam plate) about 3 years ago. No complaints.
@@backroadmax2344 Same here… 06 Deluxe. I did the same kit. No complaints! Runs great!
New Dark Horse then Timken conversion, then gears. It's close to bulletproof for the bottom end.
For 03+ If it’s in spec at the time of checking, don’t you alway have a chance for it to become out of spec at any time due to the press fit crank?
There always a chance they can develop more run out as miles pile on the stock crank. That's what has always concerned me about gear conversion on a stock crank. A good solid rebuilt crank or aftermarket is the way to go in my opinion for a gear conversion.
@@GixxerFoo Can the '99-02 cranks develop run out too or do Timkin bearings prevent that?
I have a 2000 Fatboy (original owner) with a stock 88B engine, and 54K on the speedo. The outer shoe appears to be about half-worn. Can't see the inner shoe. The outer shoe is easy enough to replace. The inner shoe is major work. I wonder why HD didn't go with gear drive at least on the cam side of the plate.
Because it probably saved them .50 cents a bike
@@paulfiore7083 Maybe. I'd hate to think that HD was that unthinking about their customers, or that it was an engineering short sightedness.
@@ephraimgarrett4727 If you have a better explanation I'd love to hear it
@@paulfiore7083 i don't have one. Would machining gears on the end of the cams really be more expensive than the chain and tensioner system? I don't know. Or, maybe they tried it, and it turned out to be noisier than they wanted.
@@ephraimgarrett4727 it was the EPA that was measuring sound. Harley wanted louder exhaust note so they quieted the cam timing system. It IS more quiet but has more reliability issues, some resulting in catastrophic engine damage
So what’s the acceptable runout for running chain style cams with hydraulic cam plate,asking for a friend?
I believe .0003 or less if I remember correctly
Going with chain drive you can have pretty high runout, but you'd want to stick with the OE cam plate. Harley really seems to be fine with up to ten thousandths. Way to much in my opinion and that's with the stock cam plate. The issue is the race cam plates really need to be five thousandths or less. But you can use the Feuling OE cam plate, much better unit that stock and it will allow you to have a crank run out higher than 5 thousandths. But anything 5 thousandths or less you're golden with a race plate, high volume oil pump and hydraulic tensioners.
@@GixxerFoo ... I went with Feuling. ZERO issues and the bike is alive
@@GixxerFoo thank you 👍
I have an 09 Fatbob with 12500m in it what would you recommend?
A good aftermarket cam and a cam plate upgrade is hard to beat, you can really get a nice bump that way. The chain drive is a lot less work and you don't have to worry about the run out being super tight.
28,500 on a 2014 Ultra Limited with the twin cooled 103. Should I be concerned or ready to throw money at parts?
So far the twin cooled bikes have been really good, haven't seen or heard about any issues with those.
@@GixxerFoo thank you!
👍🏍
I appreciate it!
💯👌
I appreciate it!
I've got a 2014 Firefighter Street Glide with the Hydraulic cam chain set up (103) High Output motor ,bought new that now has 38,500 miles on it . But my 2005 Softail Deuce( bought second hand with 17,000 miles on it) I ran till 20,000 miles then had the crank run out checked . With all the calculations checked I had the 0.003 to run gears. My shoes weren't that worn but I heard some fried at 10,000 miles some still going strong at 90,000 !!!!! A real crap shoot. SO I went with the FULL S+S Gear drive kit , cam plate , high volume oil pump, adjustable push rods ECT ECT with 509 Gear Drive cams. SO Far with a few thousand miles on it and 👍( say no more because I'm a superstitious bastard)😂😂😂Pricy yes BUT Thank God I'm not worrying about those F en plastic shoes anymore.
It is a crap shot on tensioners, engines either blew up at 15k or ran to 100k with no problem! I am jealous of that Firefighter Edition!
I agree. I did same thing. Things like this make me wish HD had a little more Japanese quality in their make up. Try to find an issue with a Honda 1800!
I have an 06 twin cam fatboy. Only have 21k on it
I guess I'll go with the fueling cam chest, figured with that many miles I better go with the hydraulic tentioners instead of the gear drive. I ve always changed the oil all the way around every 3k with syn3
Yo man, what’s up with your handle and talking about Harley’s?? Shouldn’t you be discussing rice burners?
I got that name about 20 years ago when l rode sport bikes lol. It just stuck ever since, 4 cylinders are a pain in the butt to work on 😄😂.
After 46 years of the experience on Harley-Davidson engines watching people like this is real comical
👀💬
Damm shame just a junk motor. Unless you put alot of up grades into it.
They can really benefit from some upgrades, that tensioner system was the biggest issue.
I like mine!!
@@lanceandmelanierogers6255 may she run long and strong. Stay safe.
Twin Cams are good. They have some "issues", but it's not that tragic. There are plenty of Twin Cams still running, and that alone attests they're not junk engines.
I somewhat agree. Just put $2,500 into my 01 for the chain tensioner problem. Now my $6,000 bike just went to $8,500