I understand why people may think this was not good Wing Chun, but this was a classic case of two very good Wing Chun exponents cancelling each other out. I remember a vid of two closed door students of Ip Man, Master Wong Shong Leung with Master Chu Shong Tin, being asked to do Chi Sao together at a seminar. Master WSL respectfully declined saying it wouldn't look good because they would cancel each other out, or words to that effect.
Yes Chu Shong Tin was WSL ‘s Senior. They had great respect for each other. WSL was a great fighter. I stumbled into CST Wing Chun but I could’ve just as easily stumbled into WSL Wing Chun. I’m glad I did find CST because internal Wing Chun is very powerful, it’s truly a clever art.
Nailed it! Both are a very high standard. Most Chi Sao Practitioners would never get a single hit on either. I could train for 10 more years and still get smashed.
Please understand: a disciple of CST is the real thing. These are two high level Wing Chun practitioners performing Chi Sao. Those who think otherwise don't understand WC. Period.
I don't care where they are from. Either you're good at something or you're not. You can see if the person does something well, if he trained a lot. You can tell with football, acrobatics, martial arts, cooking, painting, anything...This is not good. No matter what they practice and from which lineage they come from. Giving fancy names to bs is just one way for charlatans to make money from the stupidity of naive people who stop to use their common sense and just see what's actually happening - two old men hastily moving around with their hands. Chi Sao can be a great practice but this has nothing to do with it. It's an absolute joke.
@@Skeptical_Dante its obvs you never touched hands with cst practioner...u can go to they schools for trial see for yrself as i did n see, not alot of money like 20 usd or free if your are friendly. I went n they waived the fee, i bought a week pass after cuz i was intrigued.
this is the real chi shao of wing chun.= chi shao is basically the free sparing version of wing chun. you can use most of your power, & speed without hurting the other person. trick is that the attack is already half way, so as the defense. the hands & bridge ( forearms) are constantly acting/reacting/contacting. power always applied/pushed subtlely forward to center line. purpose is to train 1) the basic action & reaction of either upper extremities. 2) to develop power, technically this is no difference from tricep, bicep, elbow/shoulder resistance training but in a wing chun dynamic way ( moving in all different necessary directions/combination), unlike a static one plane action as in bicep curl or push ups or bench press. 3) to develop core strength, and core coordination with each use of hand/bridge of each side. core means your whole upper/lower back, abdominal muscle groups. 4) the foot work= which is the weaker part in this demo of chi shao, both are too lazy to use better footwork. 5) to train you constantly, repeatedly attacking/defending for whole 3 minutes= 180 seconds, not just a 1,2,3 choregraphed/pre-arranged tyical martial art combo moves just for 3 seconds.. what is not demonstrated here is "luc shao" meaning, occasionally , the attack/defense can be done not in a form of " forearms constantly kissing & rolling motion" . also these 2 guys are avoiding aggressiveness/speed as they don't want to risk hurting each other. unfortunately, other non-real wing chun observers or learners or practitioners got the whole thing about wing chun by watching too much movies yip man 1,2,3. yip man movies are just movies, it is not real wing chun, but they make it beautifully with no difference from any jet li or jacky chan kung fu moves. also, most wing chun videos on line are wrong, the practitioners showed the wrong training by showing wing chun training as " classical kung fu" or " muay thai" like "combo"= basically, most are like= if you make a straight punch at me, then i can block it like this or that, or stick out your arm/forearm, then i can show you how i attack with this particular 1,2 or 1,2,3 combo. this kind of combo training is unreal for real combat, as combo is mainly choregraphed/pre-determined. yes, the pre-arranged 1, or 1,2 or 1,2,3 combo can train you proficiently in that particular 1,2,3 moves for 3 seconds, but never a constant revolving action/reaction in offense/defense as in this 180 seconds chi shao which is completely not choregraphed or pre-determined. real wing chun training by itself only have a few sets of combo, 95+ % of training is just chi shao to practice the basic 15 moves of hands/bridges in any ways/angles of attack/defense. wing chun real training is about chi shao, but not about 1,2,3 combo, nor about "kata", wing chun only has 3 overly simplistic "kata". & the moves are very basic like western boxing. that is why lot of bullshito demonstrators in youtube can show you "their wing chun" after watching DVD they purchased. a real wing chun expert is someone who practices or trains himself with at least 3-4 years of chi shao with a real sifu from good wing chun linkage. just watching DVD cannot replace that 3x/week, 2 hours /lesson for 3-4 yrs. by end of 4th year, sifu will award the student dummy form for graduation. all 100 hand moves in dummy are already, actually, routinely used in chi shao training for the whole 3-4 years of chi shao practice, basically nothing new. people put too much hype on the dummy form. on top of this, the real wing chun expert also knows wing chun kicks, unfortunately i don't see any correct wing chun kick nor nearly no practitioner in youtube could demonstrate the correct kicks. it is going to be a lost art.
Very high level. Not flashy, but its who can own the centreline and apply the most force. Both men would crush most chi sao practitioners seen on internet. Have to have an eye for it I guess.
This Presentation is for Advanced students. Beginners may think they are using over powering But their structures are purely strong, here and there they are testing their structures. If they do this to beginners, beginners will be pushed away, not able to control opponents or merely structures broken down. It’s because structure of opponents are too strong, there need to change angle of force going in. Even one changes angle and opponent catches up, because their structure is strong both side, it looks like tensed. This and beginners using too much muscles from upper arms can not be treated as the same. If one of practitioners above do this with beginner thinking they are doing correct chi sao because they are more flawless, it’s dead wrong. In tai chi, push hands, advanced practitioners hands are extremely heavy if they want them to be and it can be soft based on what’s intention for training,
i like it, good flow. Although i do Hakka Mor Kiu (rubbing bridges / Chi Sao), its the same. It does not look good on the outside, there is much flow inside. like music, when we can't hear the notes anymore, just music, its good. I don't see techniques anymore, only flow, its good. Keep up the good work !!
@@johnkwc Dear Sifu, it's obvious that you and the other Sifu are both skilful experts and you are obviously cancelling each other. It would be interesting however to see you both touching hands again in a similar chi-sao, on a round table, so that you wouldn't be able to move around too much. I'm sure you've practised that many times, so I'm just mentioning it for reference. Thank you. Respect!
@@Mario-R-3232 ...Some wing chun people don't understand that it is important to be able to freely move in any direction. It is a mistake to feel the need to stand in one place...it is an artificial restriction.
@@johnkwc Thank you for your reply Sifu. I appreciate it. Of course I agree with you. On the round table however one can move in any direction, but in a limited area/space as to when you reach the edge, you need to circle around someway and not go backwards, but you know all that anyway. Respect!
all I see is two old men that never saw their prime acting like they are taking it easy on eachother. I see no wing chun, no striking, no flow whatsoever. I see you both fighting with muscle to overpower one another, and the inability for one to get to the other for a lack of understanding. I see two men who have never fought, never felt a real punch or the immediacy of a real fight, and never will.
greed fox you no nothing mate. If you were to touch hands with Sifu John you'd feel the difference. There is no brute force just good structure , forward intend relaxed. It's how Bruce Lee put it the art of fighting without fighting. many times in this exchange Sifu John broke through his line of defence. You'll see his hands spring forward. Always toward his partners spine or centreline. Unless you've studied internal Wing Chun you can't comment on flow. Unless you've felt its power you are making assumptions based on ignorance.
greed fox Many practice a form of wing chun but still may never understand the internal aspects of it. I Studied under a different lineage before finding a teacher who taught the internal aspect and believe me I may as well have studied kick boxing before hand because what I was learning before in "wing chun" under my first teacher was like chalk and cheese in comparison to what I'm learning now.
@greed fox Based on your comment, I am sorry to say, but you do not practice real wing tsun... you may be learning wing tsun 'techniques' but not its true essence.
I cry When i see chi sau performed so bad. No structure, no Real footwork, to men leaning into each other. I guess they really do give away sifu titles in there happy meals over there.
Seeing comments like his show there are many ignorant people out there. They practice the techniques only but neverver knew wing chun has infernal power. Do yourself a favor check out all the CST lineage videos on UA-cam.
No foot work? If you are moving your centre of mass and your body is connected, moving as one unit you don’t need fancy footwork. Your legs move because your Centre moves.
I agree this was not a great demonstration of chi sau. Very sloppy and more of just flailing arms. Where's the structure? I studied Wing Chun for 6 years under Buddy Wu, who was a student of Ho Kam Ming,who was a student of Yip Man. This was not good. Chi Sau is beautiful to watch when performed right. This was just sloppy.
They’re just being really careful and respectful to each other. They’re mild older guys. Experts. This is a gem.
I understand why people may think this was not good Wing Chun, but this was a classic case of two very good Wing Chun exponents cancelling each other out. I remember a vid of two closed door students of Ip Man, Master Wong Shong Leung with Master Chu Shong Tin, being asked to do Chi Sao together at a seminar. Master WSL respectfully declined saying it wouldn't look good because they would cancel each other out, or words to that effect.
@@suleymankamran1161 go take a class and stfu
bullshit
Yes Chu Shong Tin was WSL ‘s Senior. They had great respect for each other. WSL was a great fighter. I stumbled into CST Wing Chun but I could’ve just as easily stumbled into WSL Wing Chun.
I’m glad I did find CST because internal Wing Chun is very powerful, it’s truly a clever art.
Nailed it!
Both are a very high standard.
Most Chi Sao Practitioners would never get a single hit on either.
I could train for 10 more years and still get smashed.
Nah, this was very poor wing chun all round.
Sifu Ma and Sifu Kaufman are both my idols~~!! They're the TRUE LEGENDS~~!!
Sifu Kaufman, Sifu Tony Psaila, Sifu Ma all in one place...... Wing Chun royalty! amazing video and thank you so much for sharing
Tony knows what he is talking about IWCA
Please understand: a disciple of CST is the real thing. These are two high level Wing Chun practitioners performing Chi Sao. Those who think otherwise don't understand WC. Period.
I don't care where they are from. Either you're good at something or you're not. You can see if the person does something well, if he trained a lot. You can tell with football, acrobatics, martial arts, cooking, painting, anything...This is not good. No matter what they practice and from which lineage they come from. Giving fancy names to bs is just one way for charlatans to make money from the stupidity of naive people who stop to use their common sense and just see what's actually happening - two old men hastily moving around with their hands. Chi Sao can be a great practice but this has nothing to do with it. It's an absolute joke.
@@Skeptical_Dante its obvs you never touched hands with cst practioner...u can go to they schools for trial see for yrself as i did n see, not alot of money like 20 usd or free if your are friendly. I went n they waived the fee, i bought a week pass after cuz i was intrigued.
@@Skeptical_Dante i totally agree and i,m from a WSL VT Lineage- this is bullshit.
this is the real chi shao of wing chun.= chi shao is basically the free sparing version of wing chun. you can use most of your power, & speed without hurting the other person. trick is that the attack is already half way, so as the defense. the hands & bridge ( forearms) are constantly acting/reacting/contacting. power always applied/pushed subtlely forward to center line. purpose is to train 1) the basic action & reaction of either upper extremities. 2) to develop power, technically this is no difference from tricep, bicep, elbow/shoulder resistance training but in a wing chun dynamic way ( moving in all different necessary directions/combination), unlike a static one plane action as in bicep curl or push ups or bench press. 3) to develop core strength, and core coordination with each use of hand/bridge of each side. core means your whole upper/lower back, abdominal muscle groups. 4) the foot work= which is the weaker part in this demo of chi shao, both are too lazy to use better footwork. 5) to train you constantly, repeatedly attacking/defending for whole 3 minutes= 180 seconds, not just a 1,2,3 choregraphed/pre-arranged tyical martial art combo moves just for 3 seconds.. what is not demonstrated here is "luc shao" meaning, occasionally , the attack/defense can be done not in a form of " forearms constantly kissing & rolling motion" . also these 2 guys are avoiding aggressiveness/speed as they don't want to risk hurting each other. unfortunately, other non-real wing chun observers or learners or practitioners got the whole thing about wing chun by watching too much movies yip man 1,2,3. yip man movies are just movies, it is not real wing chun, but they make it beautifully with no difference from any jet li or jacky chan kung fu moves. also, most wing chun videos on line are wrong, the practitioners showed the wrong training by showing wing chun training as " classical kung fu" or " muay thai" like "combo"= basically, most are like= if you make a straight punch at me, then i can block it like this or that, or stick out your arm/forearm, then i can show you how i attack with this particular 1,2 or 1,2,3 combo. this kind of combo training is unreal for real combat, as combo is mainly choregraphed/pre-determined. yes, the pre-arranged 1, or 1,2 or 1,2,3 combo can train you proficiently in that particular 1,2,3 moves for 3 seconds, but never a constant revolving action/reaction in offense/defense as in this 180 seconds chi shao which is completely not choregraphed or pre-determined. real wing chun training by itself only have a few sets of combo, 95+ % of training is just chi shao to practice the basic 15 moves of hands/bridges in any ways/angles of attack/defense. wing chun real training is about chi shao, but not about 1,2,3 combo, nor about "kata", wing chun only has 3 overly simplistic "kata". & the moves are very basic like western boxing. that is why lot of bullshito demonstrators in youtube can show you "their wing chun" after watching DVD they purchased. a real wing chun expert is someone who practices or trains himself with at least 3-4 years of chi shao with a real sifu from good wing chun linkage. just watching DVD cannot replace that 3x/week, 2 hours /lesson for 3-4 yrs. by end of 4th year, sifu will award the student dummy form for graduation. all 100 hand moves in dummy are already, actually, routinely used in chi shao training for the whole 3-4 years of chi shao practice, basically nothing new. people put too much hype on the dummy form. on top of this, the real wing chun expert also knows wing chun kicks, unfortunately i don't see any correct wing chun kick nor nearly no practitioner in youtube could demonstrate the correct kicks. it is going to be a lost art.
it might be free but its certainly not chi sao....i believe sifu john gets the idea what it is. but this is just ridiculous
Very high level. Not flashy, but its who can own the centreline and apply the most force.
Both men would crush most chi sao practitioners seen on internet.
Have to have an eye for it I guess.
Yes...Tony Psaila was there visiting Ma Kee Fai's School.
That was great to watch. I came via Dan Leahy!
Thank you...my best to Dan.
This Presentation is for
Advanced students.
Beginners may think they are using over powering
But their structures are purely strong, here and there they are testing their structures.
If they do this to beginners, beginners will be pushed away, not able to control opponents or merely structures broken down.
It’s because structure of opponents are too strong, there need to change angle of force going in.
Even one changes angle and opponent catches up, because their structure is strong both side, it looks like tensed.
This and beginners using too much muscles from upper arms can not be treated as the same.
If one of practitioners above do this with beginner thinking they are doing correct chi sao because they are more flawless, it’s dead wrong.
In tai chi, push hands, advanced practitioners hands are extremely heavy if they want them to be and it can be soft based on what’s intention for training,
Hey that was Tony Psaila there also!
Hi John. Great to watch this again. Are you left handed ?
Yes.
@@johnkwc love your stuff. Thank you 🙏
4 big names of the Chu Shon Tin lineage... rare..
This is GREAT chi sau 👍🏻
i like it, good flow. Although i do Hakka Mor Kiu (rubbing bridges / Chi Sao), its the same. It does not look good on the outside, there is much flow inside. like music, when we can't hear the notes anymore, just music, its good. I don't see techniques anymore, only flow, its good. Keep up the good work !!
Thank you.
Love it!
Good stuff!
Funny how ignorant people are about relaxation and power. You are a very great teacher, sifu John. This video is great.
Thank you Tsui Siu...much appreciated.
@@johnkwc Dear Sifu, it's obvious that you and the other Sifu are both skilful experts and you are obviously cancelling each other. It would be interesting however to see you both touching hands again in a similar chi-sao, on a round table, so that you wouldn't be able to move around too much. I'm sure you've practised that many times, so I'm just mentioning it for reference. Thank you. Respect!
@@Mario-R-3232 ...Some wing chun people don't understand that it is important to be able to freely move in any direction. It is a mistake to feel the need to stand in one place...it is an artificial restriction.
@@johnkwc Thank you for your reply Sifu. I appreciate it. Of course I agree with you. On the round table however one can move in any direction, but in a limited area/space as to when you reach the edge, you need to circle around someway and not go backwards, but you know all that anyway. Respect!
Well done Sifu John, thanks for charing
Amazing!!!!
2:27 most epic moment!!!
all I see is two old men that never saw their prime acting like they are taking it easy on eachother. I see no wing chun, no striking, no flow whatsoever. I see you both fighting with muscle to overpower one another, and the inability for one to get to the other for a lack of understanding. I see two men who have never fought, never felt a real punch or the immediacy of a real fight, and never will.
greed fox you no nothing mate. If you were to touch hands with Sifu John you'd feel the difference. There is no brute force just good structure , forward intend relaxed. It's how Bruce Lee put it the art of fighting without fighting. many times in this exchange Sifu John broke through his line of defence. You'll see his hands spring forward. Always toward his partners spine or centreline.
Unless you've studied internal Wing Chun you can't comment on flow. Unless you've felt its power you are making assumptions based on ignorance.
I do wing tsun, it's like the cousin you didn't know was better at everything until you played baseball at the family reunion.
greed fox
Many practice a form of wing chun but still may never understand the internal aspects of it. I Studied under a different lineage before finding a teacher who taught the internal aspect and believe me I may as well have studied kick boxing before hand because what I was learning before in "wing chun" under my first teacher was like chalk and cheese in comparison to what I'm learning now.
@greed fox Based on your comment, I am sorry to say, but you do not practice real wing tsun... you may be learning wing tsun 'techniques' but not its true essence.
Sorry man, but you have no idea of what you're talking about. Check some other vids about Wing Chun internal method.
I cry When i see chi sau performed so bad. No structure, no Real footwork, to men leaning into each other. I guess they really do give away sifu titles in there happy meals over there.
Everyone talks shit but no one will fight when you are face to face with a wingchun person yo don’t get the point of chi sau I’ll fight you
Seeing comments like his show there are many ignorant people out there. They practice the techniques only but neverver knew wing chun has infernal power. Do yourself a favor check out all the CST lineage videos on UA-cam.
Lol no structure? That is the most ignorant statement. Try rolling with them you’ll be crushed into dust.
No foot work? If you are moving your centre of mass and your body is connected, moving as one unit you don’t need fancy footwork. Your legs move because your Centre moves.
I agree this was not a great demonstration of chi sau. Very sloppy and more of just flailing arms. Where's the structure? I studied Wing Chun for 6 years under Buddy Wu, who was a student of Ho Kam Ming,who was a student of Yip Man. This was not good. Chi Sau is beautiful to watch when performed right. This was just sloppy.