I don’t want to have to make you make ANOTHER update video, but I’ve recently been playing through inquisition and I noticed another tidbit of lore. If you do a very specific dialog tree with Dorian when he meets his father, you get a strange comment from him. When he tells you he hates his dad because his dad didn’t supports him for being gay, you can ask for clarification (which I chose accidentally). He gets mad and spells it out for you, and gets all huffy, and you can respond basically “Oh, yeah, I’ve done that too.” Then he gets all confused and wonders aloud how the chantry will record that little tidbit in the chant (in a way that makes it clear they wouldn’t approve) So it seems like the maybe very orthodox chantry (or at least the Tavinter chantry) may not be cool with homosexuality. Dorian’s comments seem to imply they sweep it under the rug, but Dorian implies that if your inquisitor has an openly homosexual relationship as the herald of Andraste, that might be difficult for them (or at least for the Tavinter Chantry, the only Chantry Dorian is familiar with)
Orzammar's dwarves strike me as one of the more rigid societies in Thedas. To me, it looks like it's a question of caste. If you're casteless, no one cares what you do, so sleep with whomever you want. Hell, LGB casteless might even be in demand with the nobility, if human societies are anything to go by. Transgendered dwarves...I'm not sure. Again, dwarves have super rigid roles for literally everything, so they may take a harsher view of people who are trans and genderfluid. Smith, Mining, and Warrior castes might not give any particular $#!+s when it comes to what (or who) you do in your spare time, as long as you pop out at least one heir to the family name. The biggest obstacle one might face is in one's parents; look at the way Jamar acts about Dagna in Origins. Obviously a queer dwarven couple can't adopt, since NOBODY ever seems to adopt in Orzammar. Adopting someone into your family would change their caste and status, and the Shaperate and Assembly would have conniptions. It's why I think you never see a Dwarven orphanage, or even any Dwarven children yoinger than Dagna. And then we have the Noble caste. Paradoxically, I think this is where you can find both the most freedom and the most constraint. If you're noble, like an Aeducan or a Harrowmont, you HAVE to breed and secure an heir. Fortunately (or perhaps not), there's no magic among the dwarves outside of those who've been "Titan-touched" like Valta (which, it's a secret to everybody, so that's unlikely), so someone getting Blood Magicked into being cis-hetero is highly unlikely. Indeed, dwarves are *resistant* to magic, so it would be a tough undertaking even if you brought in outside help. So you may be stuck in an arranged marriage with someone you hate, but hey, at least you can't be converted, so silver ore veins, right? But as a noble, like in all societies, you get money and power. And Orzammar has probably the highest concentration of secret underground ways for someone with money to get what they need. Black markets, Carta, the casteless who literally don't exist in the eyes of anyone else...if you're smart and sneaky, you can live whatever kind of double life you want, as long as "you are the very model of a modern Dwarven Paragon" in image. Asexuality would be frowned upon worse in Dwarven castes than anywhere else apart from Tevinter nobility, I feel, since families and lineages are such a big stonking deal there. Obviously in the Legion of the Dead, you're already dead to your family and caste, so I'm reasonably certain that, like the casteless, they don't care at all. As long as you can swing an axe, hold up a shield, or shoot a bow, you can get down and dirty with all the beardy, hairy, stocky dwarven dude-on-dude action your little tattooed heart desires... Um. That last bit got away from me a little. Sorry. I think I forgot something in my tent...
Dwarven society seems slightly male-centred. Female High Kings are said to be not unheard of, but rare, for example, and if you have a Female Dwarven Noble in DA:O you can see how people fuss about your purity or whatever. If we compare that to RL, I think that would actually fit very well with a society where male same-sex relations are looked down upon, but female same-sex relations are tolerated, or at least within certain bounds.
I do not know if someone has already mentioned this but it is important to consider the following: 1. Dwarves are a dying race. Most of their settlements are gone and their population is dwindling. This could be a contributing factor in looking down on same-sex pairings (if that is indeed the case) since those relationships are effectively childless. Adoption is there of course, but that doesn't bring in any new children into the world. Given how important this is to the Dwarves, I could see this being an issue for them. 2. Family is extremely important in Dwarven society. If you are a dwarf with only one child, and that child reveals that they are homosexual, it essentially means your family might not continue on. Now granted this is an issue in human society as well, as we see with Dorian's personal quest in DA Inquisition, but is likely an issue of even greater proportion in Dwarven society. Remember that dwarves, generally speaking, are traditional to the bone. They expect their children not just to continue the family line, but the profession as well, which is tied to the whole caste system.
A good point you made there, but if you elect Bahlen to be king (I think that's how you spell it), he changes certain things about how Dwarven society and such works. It could be possible that that is one of the things that is changed. Alternatively, Dwarves could accept same sex relationships, but they sort of dislike them because of how they are so few in number compared to the other races of Thaedas.
Actually I noticed something with Oghren, He seems to be okay with female lgbt, as seen with Hespith and Branka and again when Leliana, Isabella, and the warden(if female) in the Pearl, but is somewhat disturbed with Zevran(A Bi male). Maybe in dwarven society female lgbt are more accepted than male ones, but i could be wrong
@@Hjalmar_an_Craite I don't get it what have hypocrisy have to do with my comment? I comment about Oghren be like most (if not all) straight men. Maybe my comment wasn't clear so let me clear it. We don't mind watching lesbians but we don't like watching gay men. It has nothing to do with how i feel for gay people as a person.
@@MELKORBAOUGLIR factually incorrect. there are straight men who are ok with either and ones who are "disturbed" by both. I personally know many straight men who have no problem with gay men. the only way this statement makes sense is if you go by fetishisation logic. and even then, plenty of cis, herero men don´t find the idea of lesbians attractive.
@@cillianthestupendous6093 You understand that i am talking about lesbian/gay porn and not about lesbian/gay people. Because i don't care about other people's sexual live and most people i know don't care either.
About Oghren and Zevran, it could simply be that since Oghren is straight he is uncomfortable with Zevran flirting with him specifically. There are a lot of men, who are straight, who have nothing against gay men, but just don't want that kind of attention directed at them.
And as a homosexual man, I can enjoy banter with a heterosexual woman, pretending or feigning sexual interest in me, but if it was genuine, I'd feel a little uncomfortable. I certainly wouldnt feel as relaxed in that case.
In Dragon Age Inquisition, Oghren would be forced to sit in judgement for feeling uncomfortable and every companion would greatly approve of his execution. Seriously, im bi, but the world protrayed in Dragon Age is overwhelmingly accepting. Not a single society bar Tevinter ,who wear spikes and use blood magic, have a controversial opinion? In the real world about 2 billion people atleast openly disapprove of LGBT rights. I'll let you guess who they are. In Thedas its one.
@@The1Floyd Tevinter actively encourages same sex relations with favored slaves. And to put Da and TRW in perspective, Thedas is a single continent which follows the same, or a slightly altered version, Religion, save the Qun outliers, yet neither of these religions decries same-sex relations. What, in TRW, is the biggest driving force behind anti-LGBT rights? Religion.
@@The1Floyd Christianity and patriarchal religion which make homosexuality a sin (due to patriarchal laws around property) do not exist in Thedas. So of course it's going to be "overwhelmingly accepting" compared to the real world. There isn't patriarchal backing to make homosexuality as "bad" as there is here.
Oghren strikes me as a dirty old man, making him a dubious source of dwarven sexuality in Orgramar. They seem very focused on lineage & bloodlines, as they are in decline. Surface dwarves like Verrick are more in tune with surface races like humans & tend to reflect their values, again not good insights to standard dwarven cultures. Even Bronka seemed to be very independent & disdainful of standard noble causes/interests, pursuing her own goals of perfecting her smithing & unlocking the secrets of golemcraft.
Dwarves, at least the Orzammar once, in general, seem much more conservative in compersion to other Thedas' societies, that connects possible to their strict class system / social restrictions. That said, it didn't stop my bisexual Dwarven noble, in my latest DA:O playthrough, to have fun with everyone he liked (had a Son with Mandy, flirted with Morrigan, romanced Zevran, had fun with Isabela and Zevran together and finally slept with Morrigan for the Ritual) ;)
lol good update Paragon Branka lover was Hespith Oghren's cousin I think Hespith became Branka lover after they left Oghren could challenge Hespith to a dual to avengers besmirched honor if he knew.
Oghren is absolutely a dirty old man, because aside from Branka, he also makes gross comments if a female warden romances Leliana and/or sleeps with Isabela and/or sleeps with a female sex worker. His discomfort with Zevran (as well as with Anders) is a massive double standard. He's only cool with lesbians/bi women and only if he can watch. That doesn't mean all of dwarven society is like that, but it can't be the most tolerant place either if it spat out someone like Oghren.
Late to the party, but I wanted to toss my two cents in. I think a large part of Orzammar sexuality can be broken down into two facets: 1) As your caste matches your same-sex parent's caste, who a female dwarf wants to bed is far more important than whom a male dwarf wants to bed. (Dwarf warrior caste men who bed casteless have a roughly 50/50 chance of more warriors for the cause, where dwarf warrior caste women with casteless men have a 50/50 chance of not gaining a warrior, for example.) 2) The dwarves of Orzammar are dying out. Between a low birth rate and constant losses against darkspawn, any man or woman dwarf (of proper caste) not "contributing" is an active loss to their numbers. As per Varric, these are less of a concern for surface dwarves, so they probably adhere to whichever culture they're living in.
and yes he did not know the guard you see him talking to mentions it if pushed and so do others the entire city knew only he did not as they knew that it would send him over the edge and as he was well known to be quick to anger they did not want to tell him i think after spending some time with your party he lightens up a bit but still finds it weird
I seem to recall female dwarves having low fertility and children being something of a rarity. Given Orzammar's thing of 'duty' and them being a dying, constantly attacked by darkspawn race with extremely rigid castes and zero to no meritocracy, same sex relationships would be discouraged. Same sex relationships aren't exactly encouraged if their caste isn't the same. They have the 'noble' hunters who are trying to have a son so they can move up in caste, so a castless girl would be encouraged to seek a high ranking man even if she was not heterosexual. Women are expected to have children within their caste if noble or with a higher caste if not. Men are allowed to put it anywhere as long as it's a woman, as having children outside their caste will elavate the other, unlike women where they lose their caste if the keep the child.
Curious detail on Orlesian theatre and masks: as per the 'Compendium of Orlesian Theatre, Volume VI: The Plays of False Faces' by Magister Pellinar, Orlesian theatre masks no longer say everything there is to know about the character. Indeed, it is quite commonplace nowadays for the masks to change mid-play, intended to shock and surprise the audience. Coming to gender, this would potentially enable even transition to be portrayed in Orlesian theatre. Dwarven gender roles, I suspect, are also very different in Kal-Sharok than they are in Orzammar, which is described as a far more hierarchical society than Kal-Sharok.
Just because I didn't see it, I'll interject that if you don't romance Dorian or Iron Bull they become a thing. And for Iron Bull it seems strange because it seems to be a loving relationship, which seems to be anti-Qun. (It might also be different if you keep Iron Bull Qunari instead of him becoming Tal-Vashoth(because death and all)) Also Dorian states that his father tried to "Change" him, so I'm wondering if that is a Thedas version of conversion therapy. Just some thoughts love your videos!
Austin Empey conversion therapy seems to be a more widespread idea- I think that the situation with Dorian and his father was kind of an isolated incident and not something that would be openly practiced. Again, it wasn't really the fact that Dorian was gay that made his father angry, it was Dorians decision to be true to himself and not marry a woman, thus ending their bloodline. It was more the act of a (wrong) desperate father, rather than something common in tevinter.
@@leedraconis5793 Yes it was story to reflect conversion 'therapy', by the writer David Gaider, without literally being it. But it was close enough, as the matter was that Dorian would never lay with and marry *any* woman, and him finding his father disregarded any wishes of that. This is where the sexuality still matters - Dorian is one of the (likely few) 'out gay' Tevinter nobiles and while his father doesn't seem to have a specified animosity against that, he is still 'homophobic' because he cannot stand what being an 'out gay' can mean (no more presence, no more sex or marriage with one that you won't care for). Father is still anti-gay without stating such. Dorian is still gay without stating such. It was just written with thin veil.
I do find it weird though. Tevinter is all about magic and I find it strange not a single mage has discovered a way for two men to procreate in nearly 4000 Years. Especially when they have magic that allows for someone to transition from male to female. Again just seems weird. Especially since it would open up the ability for arranged marriages between two gay men of separate noble houses.
Just remembered of Tyrdda Bright-Axe in dai, an Avvar woman and warrior (or maybe a mage as we have her staff) who had an elven female lover. She was also forced to have an heir with a dwarf (I think?) and after fulfilling her duty she went to her lover nevetheless
While Harding does openly flirt with all genders, I'm not sure that clearly defines her as Bi. As you cant reach a full relationship with her regardless. Dorian is 100% gay and yet he openly flirts with a female Inquisitor. And I know Harding accepts the invitation for a drink from all genders but who knows how she takes that. Could be as a date or a friendly drink if she's someone that's just oblivious to the obvious. Just a thought.
Dialogue from Vivienne in Trespasser if you don't get into an official romance hints that the Inquisitor and Harding had a brief relationship in the two year gap.
Hey!! Cool that you admit fault on your video's!! To be honest, I never knew you could romance scout harding nor that Dagna would get to date Sera...So there I learned something aswel ^^ Maybe something else you could add on the topic (if its even in the lore of the game): Relationships between different races... Elves, Dwarves, Qunari, Humans...How does the world view romantic relations between them? Also, what would the child be like? We've already seen a Human and Elf hybrid in DA:2, but what would a child from a Elf and Dwarf couple look like? It's just something that I'd find interesting to hear ^^
There seems to be a bug when romancing Scout Harding, which I'm not sure if it's been fixed or not. At one point she says "Meet me in the tavern once this is over." - I went to every tavern I could find and she wasn't there 😢. WTF? Who stands up THE INQUISITOR?! REALLY!! Who does that??
That's an interesting idea. However it could be that for instance like you said, an elf and dwarf couple's offspring. They may not have the correct genetic makeup to be able to have a child and even if they could, the child could be naturally infertile because of the genetic makeup.
That could be said of all half-breeds in Thedas, and it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. In nature, if a cross-species animal is born, and survives into adulthood, it's not uncommon for that creature to be sterile.
With the dwarves, you have a lot of different issues at play. First, extremely rigid society. Second, though, they are dying out. Third, the differences between surface and traditional dwarves mean that most sources (surface dwarves, casteless, kicked out, rebelling) aren't much of a source for what is allowed. If I were to guess, though... given that, despite the decimation of the dwarven population due to the darkspawn, they are STILL willing to kick out/let die their own grandchildren based on the caste of the parents, that they mean business...when it comes to breeding, at least. But then again, not necessarily a concern with a same sex relationship. So, what may well happen is... as long as you do your duty, and the 'do' with your assigned and proper mate (using that term in both senses of the word), that what you do on the side doesn't matter. In those cases, having someone same sex on the side may even be, if not acceptable, at least not as risky, as that relationship won't leave the parentage of any offspring (and the resulting caste assignment) in doubt.
That's what I read as well. Dwarven society being the most rigid or conservative, but in the passively survivalist way. The kingdoms being fairly open, but not always. Tevinter not caring until lineage concerns. Maybe regions like Rivain not caring at all. And I'm sure Bioware will one day fit in some region where homosexuality is even encouraged (for better or worse) and tell critics to stuff it.
I don't remember where, but I remember reading about the fact that dwarfs were more in a open relationship and I wanted to know if it was just fan theory or actual thing !
Well dwarven paragons are considered living gods in their society so it would stand to reason that ur correct, they can pretty much say/do anything they want
Didn't the dwarven noble origin have two female dwarven "noble hunters" that a male dwarven noble could sleep with at the same time? One of them can get pregnant from it. Or so I've read. I haven't played the dwarven noble origin yet.
I'm not sure if it's already in the comments but wouldn't it make sense for same sex relationships within Orzammar to be problematic because of the caste system? I'm not sure if it makes total sense but, like with what we see of Tevinter through Dorian, it seems plausible that it could be more about carrying on the family line regardless of what you're doing "on the side." Your duty to your house would require propagation. I think it would be really cool if we had sources on castless sexuality in Orzammar...
Erik Karlsson I don't think Shale thinks of itself as a girl, nor as a dwarf. After the reveal that Shale was once a dwarf I remember there being dialogue where you ask it of you should start calling it a girl and Shale is like "no I'd rather not" so I think maybe Shale would fit into being agender more than anything. Even down to pronouns, Shale prefers to be called it than her. So maybe an example of gender nonconformity in Thedas? though Golems, and especially free thinking ones, are incredibly rare in Thedas so it isn't much help on what the status quo is
Wait and doesn't Varric cousin, Thorold (I forgot his name ) marry Mavis? And that was how they knew each other? I don't know if that is particularly cannon or not.
Was Kondrat. When Branka became paragon, house Kondrat was absorbed by house Branka. When Branka left Oghren in Orzammar, he was basically houseless. So, he is just Oghren of the Warrior Caste. And later, Oghren the Grey Warden.
What I gather here is that male dwarfes are more closed minded. Females seem to have an easier feeling for being gay or bi. All the dwarves who are homosexual are female after all. That doesn't mean male dwarfes are not accepting. Ogren would haven been open to adjust. It just seems like male dwarfes, especially when raised in Orzammar, are still to much stuck into their maskulin thinking I suppose. This is however just my opinion on the momentary given information. The player characters, be it warden or inky can both be played as a gay or bi person. I wonder if we ever get to see a set character who is a bi or homosexual male dwarf.
I think Dagna is more of a "maybe". The only word we get on her is from Sera. Not sure if she's just making it up or not. I don't see them really getting along to be perfectly honest. Dagna is into all things magical, and Sera is the complete opposite. Each speak in terms that seem like the other wouldn't understand. And Dagna always struck me as the type who wasn't interested in a relationship or sex.
Idk if anyone else said anything about this, but for topics concerning Transgender references/mentions, you missed the codex entry about the MTF Divine, where it talks about a Sister claiming the recently deceased Divine (In the entry) had a pernus, but the Revered Mother corrects that it was just a squirrel who came in through the window and was seen 'down there'.
In terms of language you used in the previous gender video - it's not generally accepted, and can even be considered offensive to, refer to trans people as transgenderED. It assumes an act of 'becoming' transgender, and grammatically transgender is an adjective not a noun. I would not call myself a 'non-binaried' person - I did not 'become' non-binary. Hope that makes it a little clearer.
So I have to say the guys who make dragon age games need to stop pandering to every little thing the SJWs demand. I am completely OK with homosexual or even trans characters, but I don't want the Role-playing to downgrade because the SJWs like to throw temper tantrums. Again, nothing against homosexuality or transgenders(everyone has their thing). I just want to preserve the role-playing aspect of dragon age.
Do they pander? Perhaps. But many in Bioware are themselves GSM (gender or sexual minority), or avowed allies to LGBTQIA+ causes. This is who they are. It is pandering to 'themselves'. They themselves want gay or trans or otherwise characters, and EA higher ups simply allow it (perhaps with justification that they can use it as some marketing shielding, but that doesn't mean the developers themselves are not social progressives). From the start, writers like David Gaider wanted a fantasy world that was relatively more tolerant to GSM than many/most historical periods of our world. That's their right, and in this setting, yes you'd have less realistic options to oppose such GSM. Doesn't mean a game can't exist with more options, but Bioware doesn't intend it for theirs. To them (or at least such writers/developers that speak on this), the world already has enough sexuality-neutral or sexuality-negative media. They don't want to add to it. They want to provide representation that doesn't or has rarely existed. Sometimes this smacks of quotas, but that's more the reality of limited development resources than something highly inept.
I don’t want to have to make you make ANOTHER update video, but I’ve recently been playing through inquisition and I noticed another tidbit of lore. If you do a very specific dialog tree with Dorian when he meets his father, you get a strange comment from him.
When he tells you he hates his dad because his dad didn’t supports him for being gay, you can ask for clarification (which I chose accidentally). He gets mad and spells it out for you, and gets all huffy, and you can respond basically “Oh, yeah, I’ve done that too.” Then he gets all confused and wonders aloud how the chantry will record that little tidbit in the chant (in a way that makes it clear they wouldn’t approve)
So it seems like the maybe very orthodox chantry (or at least the Tavinter chantry) may not be cool with homosexuality. Dorian’s comments seem to imply they sweep it under the rug, but Dorian implies that if your inquisitor has an openly homosexual relationship as the herald of Andraste, that might be difficult for them (or at least for the Tavinter Chantry, the only Chantry Dorian is familiar with)
Orzammar's dwarves strike me as one of the more rigid societies in Thedas. To me, it looks like it's a question of caste.
If you're casteless, no one cares what you do, so sleep with whomever you want. Hell, LGB casteless might even be in demand with the nobility, if human societies are anything to go by. Transgendered dwarves...I'm not sure. Again, dwarves have super rigid roles for literally everything, so they may take a harsher view of people who are trans and genderfluid.
Smith, Mining, and Warrior castes might not give any particular $#!+s when it comes to what (or who) you do in your spare time, as long as you pop out at least one heir to the family name. The biggest obstacle one might face is in one's parents; look at the way Jamar acts about Dagna in Origins.
Obviously a queer dwarven couple can't adopt, since NOBODY ever seems to adopt in Orzammar. Adopting someone into your family would change their caste and status, and the Shaperate and Assembly would have conniptions. It's why I think you never see a Dwarven orphanage, or even any Dwarven children yoinger than Dagna.
And then we have the Noble caste. Paradoxically, I think this is where you can find both the most freedom and the most constraint.
If you're noble, like an Aeducan or a Harrowmont, you HAVE to breed and secure an heir. Fortunately (or perhaps not), there's no magic among the dwarves outside of those who've been "Titan-touched" like Valta (which, it's a secret to everybody, so that's unlikely), so someone getting Blood Magicked into being cis-hetero is highly unlikely. Indeed, dwarves are *resistant* to magic, so it would be a tough undertaking even if you brought in outside help. So you may be stuck in an arranged marriage with someone you hate, but hey, at least you can't be converted, so silver ore veins, right?
But as a noble, like in all societies, you get money and power. And Orzammar has probably the highest concentration of secret underground ways for someone with money to get what they need. Black markets, Carta, the casteless who literally don't exist in the eyes of anyone else...if you're smart and sneaky, you can live whatever kind of double life you want, as long as "you are the very model of a modern Dwarven Paragon" in image.
Asexuality would be frowned upon worse in Dwarven castes than anywhere else apart from Tevinter nobility, I feel, since families and lineages are such a big stonking deal there.
Obviously in the Legion of the Dead, you're already dead to your family and caste, so I'm reasonably certain that, like the casteless, they don't care at all. As long as you can swing an axe, hold up a shield, or shoot a bow, you can get down and dirty with all the beardy, hairy, stocky dwarven dude-on-dude action your little tattooed heart desires...
Um. That last bit got away from me a little. Sorry.
I think I forgot something in my tent...
It's awesome that you went back to your material and reviewed it and admitted to a fault! Nice! :)
Dwarven society seems slightly male-centred. Female High Kings are said to be not unheard of, but rare, for example, and if you have a Female Dwarven Noble in DA:O you can see how people fuss about your purity or whatever. If we compare that to RL, I think that would actually fit very well with a society where male same-sex relations are looked down upon, but female same-sex relations are tolerated, or at least within certain bounds.
I do not know if someone has already mentioned this but it is important to consider the following:
1. Dwarves are a dying race. Most of their settlements are gone and their population is dwindling. This could be a contributing factor in looking down on same-sex pairings (if that is indeed the case) since those relationships are effectively childless. Adoption is there of course, but that doesn't bring in any new children into the world. Given how important this is to the Dwarves, I could see this being an issue for them.
2. Family is extremely important in Dwarven society. If you are a dwarf with only one child, and that child reveals that they are homosexual, it essentially means your family might not continue on. Now granted this is an issue in human society as well, as we see with Dorian's personal quest in DA Inquisition, but is likely an issue of even greater proportion in Dwarven society. Remember that dwarves, generally speaking, are traditional to the bone. They expect their children not just to continue the family line, but the profession as well, which is tied to the whole caste system.
A good point you made there, but if you elect Bahlen to be king (I think that's how you spell it), he changes certain things about how Dwarven society and such works. It could be possible that that is one of the things that is changed. Alternatively, Dwarves could accept same sex relationships, but they sort of dislike them because of how they are so few in number compared to the other races of Thaedas.
That "fuck" is so real.
Actually I noticed something with Oghren, He seems to be okay with female lgbt, as seen with Hespith and Branka and again when Leliana, Isabella, and the warden(if female) in the Pearl, but is somewhat disturbed with Zevran(A Bi male). Maybe in dwarven society female lgbt are more accepted than male ones, but i could be wrong
No all straight men are ok with lesbians and disturbed with gay men.
@@MELKORBAOUGLIR Ah, the sweet sound of hypocrisy.
@@Hjalmar_an_Craite I don't get it what have hypocrisy have to do with my comment? I comment about Oghren be like most (if not all) straight men. Maybe my comment wasn't clear so let me clear it. We don't mind watching lesbians but we don't like watching gay men. It has nothing to do with how i feel for gay people as a person.
@@MELKORBAOUGLIR factually incorrect. there are straight men who are ok with either and ones who are "disturbed" by both. I personally know many straight men who have no problem with gay men. the only way this statement makes sense is if you go by fetishisation logic. and even then, plenty of cis, herero men don´t find the idea of lesbians attractive.
@@cillianthestupendous6093 You understand that i am talking about lesbian/gay porn and not about lesbian/gay people. Because i don't care about other people's sexual live and most people i know don't care either.
About Oghren and Zevran, it could simply be that since Oghren is straight he is uncomfortable with Zevran flirting with him specifically. There are a lot of men, who are straight, who have nothing against gay men, but just don't want that kind of attention directed at them.
That's what I think too! I know a lot of straight men IRL who are uncomfortable with male homosexuality but find female homosexuality arousing.
And as a homosexual man, I can enjoy banter with a heterosexual woman, pretending or feigning sexual interest in me, but if it was genuine, I'd feel a little uncomfortable. I certainly wouldnt feel as relaxed in that case.
In Dragon Age Inquisition, Oghren would be forced to sit in judgement for feeling uncomfortable and every companion would greatly approve of his execution.
Seriously, im bi, but the world protrayed in Dragon Age is overwhelmingly accepting. Not a single society bar Tevinter ,who wear spikes and use blood magic, have a controversial opinion?
In the real world about 2 billion people atleast openly disapprove of LGBT rights. I'll let you guess who they are.
In Thedas its one.
@@The1Floyd Tevinter actively encourages same sex relations with favored slaves. And to put Da and TRW in perspective, Thedas is a single continent which follows the same, or a slightly altered version, Religion, save the Qun outliers, yet neither of these religions decries same-sex relations. What, in TRW, is the biggest driving force behind anti-LGBT rights? Religion.
@@The1Floyd Christianity and patriarchal religion which make homosexuality a sin (due to patriarchal laws around property) do not exist in Thedas. So of course it's going to be "overwhelmingly accepting" compared to the real world. There isn't patriarchal backing to make homosexuality as "bad" as there is here.
Oghren strikes me as a dirty old man, making him a dubious source of dwarven sexuality in Orgramar. They seem very focused on lineage & bloodlines, as they are in decline. Surface dwarves like Verrick are more in tune with surface races like humans & tend to reflect their values, again not good insights to standard dwarven cultures. Even Bronka seemed to be very independent & disdainful of standard noble causes/interests, pursuing her own goals of perfecting her smithing & unlocking the secrets of golemcraft.
*Varric
FUCK! That was great!
SHIT! was great too.
Not to make another video, but I remember some of the silent sisters being lesbians in Origins, when you have to fight at the arena
What an exciting update noise at the beginning!
The emphatic “fuck!” is a mood
Dwarves, at least the Orzammar once, in general, seem much more conservative in compersion to other Thedas' societies, that connects possible to their strict class system / social restrictions.
That said, it didn't stop my bisexual Dwarven noble, in my latest DA:O playthrough, to have fun with everyone he liked (had a Son with Mandy, flirted with Morrigan, romanced Zevran, had fun with Isabela and Zevran together and finally slept with Morrigan for the Ritual) ;)
lol good update
Paragon Branka lover was Hespith Oghren's cousin
I think Hespith became Branka lover after they left
Oghren could challenge Hespith to a dual to avengers besmirched honor if he knew.
Oghren is absolutely a dirty old man, because aside from Branka, he also makes gross comments if a female warden romances Leliana and/or sleeps with Isabela and/or sleeps with a female sex worker. His discomfort with Zevran (as well as with Anders) is a massive double standard. He's only cool with lesbians/bi women and only if he can watch. That doesn't mean all of dwarven society is like that, but it can't be the most tolerant place either if it spat out someone like Oghren.
Late to the party, but I wanted to toss my two cents in. I think a large part of Orzammar sexuality can be broken down into two facets:
1) As your caste matches your same-sex parent's caste, who a female dwarf wants to bed is far more important than whom a male dwarf wants to bed. (Dwarf warrior caste men who bed casteless have a roughly 50/50 chance of more warriors for the cause, where dwarf warrior caste women with casteless men have a 50/50 chance of not gaining a warrior, for example.)
2) The dwarves of Orzammar are dying out. Between a low birth rate and constant losses against darkspawn, any man or woman dwarf (of proper caste) not "contributing" is an active loss to their numbers.
As per Varric, these are less of a concern for surface dwarves, so they probably adhere to whichever culture they're living in.
and yes he did not know the guard you see him talking to mentions it if pushed and so do others the entire city knew only he did not as they knew that it would send him over the edge and as he was well known to be quick to anger they did not want to tell him i think after spending some time with your party he lightens up a bit but still finds it weird
The sound of you shouting "FUCK" from across the room is the most hilarious thing :P
If it makes you feel better, I have forgotten so many of the finer details of this series.
So glad you made this lol all I could think after the first video was branka and hespith!!
I seem to recall female dwarves having low fertility and children being something of a rarity. Given Orzammar's thing of 'duty' and them being a dying, constantly attacked by darkspawn race with extremely rigid castes and zero to no meritocracy, same sex relationships would be discouraged. Same sex relationships aren't exactly encouraged if their caste isn't the same. They have the 'noble' hunters who are trying to have a son so they can move up in caste, so a castless girl would be encouraged to seek a high ranking man even if she was not heterosexual. Women are expected to have children within their caste if noble or with a higher caste if not. Men are allowed to put it anywhere as long as it's a woman, as having children outside their caste will elavate the other, unlike women where they lose their caste if the keep the child.
Curious detail on Orlesian theatre and masks: as per the 'Compendium of Orlesian Theatre, Volume VI: The Plays of False Faces' by Magister Pellinar, Orlesian theatre masks no longer say everything there is to know about the character. Indeed, it is quite commonplace nowadays for the masks to change mid-play, intended to shock and surprise the audience. Coming to gender, this would potentially enable even transition to be portrayed in Orlesian theatre. Dwarven gender roles, I suspect, are also very different in Kal-Sharok than they are in Orzammar, which is described as a far more hierarchical society than Kal-Sharok.
Just because I didn't see it, I'll interject that if you don't romance Dorian or Iron Bull they become a thing. And for Iron Bull it seems strange because it seems to be a loving relationship, which seems to be anti-Qun. (It might also be different if you keep Iron Bull Qunari instead of him becoming Tal-Vashoth(because death and all)) Also Dorian states that his father tried to "Change" him, so I'm wondering if that is a Thedas version of conversion therapy. Just some thoughts love your videos!
Austin Empey conversion therapy seems to be a more widespread idea- I think that the situation with Dorian and his father was kind of an isolated incident and not something that would be openly practiced. Again, it wasn't really the fact that Dorian was gay that made his father angry, it was Dorians decision to be true to himself and not marry a woman, thus ending their bloodline. It was more the act of a (wrong) desperate father, rather than something common in tevinter.
@@leedraconis5793 Yes it was story to reflect conversion 'therapy', by the writer David Gaider, without literally being it. But it was close enough, as the matter was that Dorian would never lay with and marry *any* woman, and him finding his father disregarded any wishes of that. This is where the sexuality still matters - Dorian is one of the (likely few) 'out gay' Tevinter nobiles and while his father doesn't seem to have a specified animosity against that, he is still 'homophobic' because he cannot stand what being an 'out gay' can mean (no more presence, no more sex or marriage with one that you won't care for). Father is still anti-gay without stating such. Dorian is still gay without stating such. It was just written with thin veil.
I do find it weird though. Tevinter is all about magic and I find it strange not a single mage has discovered a way for two men to procreate in nearly 4000 Years.
Especially when they have magic that allows for someone to transition from male to female.
Again just seems weird. Especially since it would open up the ability for arranged marriages between two gay men of separate noble houses.
Just remembered of Tyrdda Bright-Axe in dai, an Avvar woman and warrior (or maybe a mage as we have her staff) who had an elven female lover. She was also forced to have an heir with a dwarf (I think?) and after fulfilling her duty she went to her lover nevetheless
Wasn't it a male elf lover? His tree is on the Horsemaster's farm.
While Harding does openly flirt with all genders, I'm not sure that clearly defines her as Bi. As you cant reach a full relationship with her regardless. Dorian is 100% gay and yet he openly flirts with a female Inquisitor. And I know Harding accepts the invitation for a drink from all genders but who knows how she takes that. Could be as a date or a friendly drink if she's someone that's just oblivious to the obvious. Just a thought.
Dialogue from Vivienne in Trespasser if you don't get into an official romance hints that the Inquisitor and Harding had a brief relationship in the two year gap.
Maybe Harding is Asexual and while they may have tried out a romantic relationship it ultimately doesn't go anywhere?
U know what all ur DAI videos are the best.
In the comic, Varric's cousin is married to Mae, she is his widow.
Hey!! Cool that you admit fault on your video's!! To be honest, I never knew you could romance scout harding nor that Dagna would get to date Sera...So there I learned something aswel ^^
Maybe something else you could add on the topic (if its even in the lore of the game): Relationships between different races... Elves, Dwarves, Qunari, Humans...How does the world view romantic relations between them? Also, what would the child be like? We've already seen a Human and Elf hybrid in DA:2, but what would a child from a Elf and Dwarf couple look like? It's just something that I'd find interesting to hear ^^
There seems to be a bug when romancing Scout Harding, which I'm not sure if it's been fixed or not. At one point she says "Meet me in the tavern once this is over." - I went to every tavern I could find and she wasn't there 😢.
WTF? Who stands up THE INQUISITOR?! REALLY!! Who does that??
That's an interesting idea. However it could be that for instance like you said, an elf and dwarf couple's offspring. They may not have the correct genetic makeup to be able to have a child and even if they could, the child could be naturally infertile because of the genetic makeup.
That could be said of all half-breeds in Thedas, and it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. In nature, if a cross-species animal is born, and survives into adulthood, it's not uncommon for that creature to be sterile.
I'm more intrigued to see a dwarf and a qunari
With the dwarves, you have a lot of different issues at play. First, extremely rigid society. Second, though, they are dying out. Third, the differences between surface and traditional dwarves mean that most sources (surface dwarves, casteless, kicked out, rebelling) aren't much of a source for what is allowed. If I were to guess, though... given that, despite the decimation of the dwarven population due to the darkspawn, they are STILL willing to kick out/let die their own grandchildren based on the caste of the parents, that they mean business...when it comes to breeding, at least. But then again, not necessarily a concern with a same sex relationship. So, what may well happen is... as long as you do your duty, and the 'do' with your assigned and proper mate (using that term in both senses of the word), that what you do on the side doesn't matter. In those cases, having someone same sex on the side may even be, if not acceptable, at least not as risky, as that relationship won't leave the parentage of any offspring (and the resulting caste assignment) in doubt.
That's what I read as well. Dwarven society being the most rigid or conservative, but in the passively survivalist way. The kingdoms being fairly open, but not always. Tevinter not caring until lineage concerns. Maybe regions like Rivain not caring at all. And I'm sure Bioware will one day fit in some region where homosexuality is even encouraged (for better or worse) and tell critics to stuff it.
for the qun you also have to think it has been over 5 years from DAO to DAI so views on gender and sexuality can change
The Qun doesn’t really seem very mutable
I don't remember where, but I remember reading about the fact that dwarfs were more in a open relationship and I wanted to know if it was just fan theory or actual thing !
1:50
TBH I think that Oghren is just uncomfortable with Zevran's behavior. Same goes for Leliana, she got reeeeeally tired from Zevran's attention.
Well dwarven paragons are considered living gods in their society so it would stand to reason that ur correct, they can pretty much say/do anything they want
Fetishizing lesbians isn't a sign of acceptance.
Didn't the dwarven noble origin have two female dwarven "noble hunters" that a male dwarven noble could sleep with at the same time? One of them can get pregnant from it. Or so I've read. I haven't played the dwarven noble origin yet.
I'm not sure if it's already in the comments but wouldn't it make sense for same sex relationships within Orzammar to be problematic because of the caste system? I'm not sure if it makes total sense but, like with what we see of Tevinter through Dorian, it seems plausible that it could be more about carrying on the family line regardless of what you're doing "on the side." Your duty to your house would require propagation. I think it would be really cool if we had sources on castless sexuality in Orzammar...
Speaking of wich... Isnt Shale(Tecnicaly a female dwarf) flirting with Sten? (Party banter). Someone might have pointed ths one up already...
Erik Karlsson I don't think Shale thinks of itself as a girl, nor as a dwarf. After the reveal that Shale was once a dwarf I remember there being dialogue where you ask it of you should start calling it a girl and Shale is like "no I'd rather not"
so I think maybe Shale would fit into being agender more than anything. Even down to pronouns, Shale prefers to be called it than her. So maybe an example of gender nonconformity in Thedas? though Golems, and especially free thinking ones, are incredibly rare in Thedas so it isn't much help on what the status quo is
Wait and doesn't Varric cousin, Thorold (I forgot his name ) marry Mavis?
And that was how they knew each other?
I don't know if that is particularly cannon or not.
I believe it is cannon as it was in their comic book.
Syvette. Well, I say that because Alistar is King in the comicbooks and that isn't exactly a canon option. Other than that I would say heck yeah!
A line if you have Al as the Grey Warden in Inquisition indicates that the events of the comic still mostly happens.
what is Oghren last name House Kondrat or House Branka
Was Kondrat. When Branka became paragon, house Kondrat was absorbed by house Branka. When Branka left Oghren in Orzammar, he was basically houseless. So, he is just Oghren of the Warrior Caste. And later, Oghren the Grey Warden.
thank u
Zeromaru X ah neat. I learned something. :)
What I gather here is that male dwarfes are more closed minded. Females seem to have an easier feeling for being gay or bi. All the dwarves who are homosexual are female after all.
That doesn't mean male dwarfes are not accepting. Ogren would haven been open to adjust. It just seems like male dwarfes, especially when raised in Orzammar, are still to much stuck into their maskulin thinking I suppose.
This is however just my opinion on the momentary given information. The player characters, be it warden or inky can both be played as a gay or bi person. I wonder if we ever get to see a set character who is a bi or homosexual male dwarf.
HOW COULD YOU FORGET THE TRANS DWARF WE GET IN THE "SURPRISE ME" SECTION OF PEARL.
I think Dagna is more of a "maybe". The only word we get on her is from Sera. Not sure if she's just making it up or not. I don't see them really getting along to be perfectly honest. Dagna is into all things magical, and Sera is the complete opposite. Each speak in terms that seem like the other wouldn't understand. And Dagna always struck me as the type who wasn't interested in a relationship or sex.
I just wanna say U got a gorgeous voice hehe
Idk if anyone else said anything about this, but for topics concerning Transgender references/mentions, you missed the codex entry about the MTF Divine, where it talks about a Sister claiming the recently deceased Divine (In the entry) had a pernus, but the Revered Mother corrects that it was just a squirrel who came in through the window and was seen 'down there'.
In terms of language you used in the previous gender video - it's not generally accepted, and can even be considered offensive to, refer to trans people as transgenderED. It assumes an act of 'becoming' transgender, and grammatically transgender is an adjective not a noun. I would not call myself a 'non-binaried' person - I did not 'become' non-binary. Hope that makes it a little clearer.
69 like
So I have to say the guys who make dragon age games need to stop pandering to every little thing the SJWs demand. I am completely OK with homosexual or even trans characters, but I don't want the Role-playing to downgrade because the SJWs like to throw temper tantrums.
Again, nothing against homosexuality or transgenders(everyone has their thing). I just want to preserve the role-playing aspect of dragon age.
Do they pander? Perhaps. But many in Bioware are themselves GSM (gender or sexual minority), or avowed allies to LGBTQIA+ causes. This is who they are. It is pandering to 'themselves'. They themselves want gay or trans or otherwise characters, and EA higher ups simply allow it (perhaps with justification that they can use it as some marketing shielding, but that doesn't mean the developers themselves are not social progressives). From the start, writers like David Gaider wanted a fantasy world that was relatively more tolerant to GSM than many/most historical periods of our world. That's their right, and in this setting, yes you'd have less realistic options to oppose such GSM. Doesn't mean a game can't exist with more options, but Bioware doesn't intend it for theirs. To them (or at least such writers/developers that speak on this), the world already has enough sexuality-neutral or sexuality-negative media. They don't want to add to it. They want to provide representation that doesn't or has rarely existed. Sometimes this smacks of quotas, but that's more the reality of limited development resources than something highly inept.
It seems to me that people who are the most flaky and loud are the Anti-Sjw's. "I'm okay with homosexuality BUT"
Hell yeah I'd be down for two women
I'm not an SJW.( In fact I dislike politics altogether)