Is what happened to the Downes Family Arthur's fault?

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  • Опубліковано 21 лис 2024

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  • @planderlinde1969
    @planderlinde1969 10 місяців тому +585

    In my opinion Arthur might have accelerated Downs' journey to the grave but ultimately the result would have been the same. The family was already in financial troubles and tuberculosis would have killed him at some point down the road.

    • @mrgoober6320
      @mrgoober6320 10 місяців тому

      A quick google search reveals that a TB infection would be fatal within five years.

    • @0xyg3ng0d7
      @0xyg3ng0d7 3 місяці тому +9

      And they accelerated Arthur into the grave as well

    • @Nifty102
      @Nifty102 3 місяці тому +3

      Yeah kinda like how the stress put on Arthur caused his TB to accelerate

  • @theimperialist2686
    @theimperialist2686 10 місяців тому +1423

    It's not entirely Arthur's fault, what he pretty much did was speed up the process of driving the Downes into poverty. Thomas Downes was the one who willingly borrowed money from Strauss, so agreed to the terms of paying it back which he failed to comply with. Also, they were on the way to poverty whether Arthur was involved or not, since Thomas was dying of TB and that would have definitely put a strain on their finances.

    • @aspirantdrummer
      @aspirantdrummer 10 місяців тому +281

      Also, burrowing money to support your charity instead of your family wasn´t the smartest move either

    • @dogeshow2651
      @dogeshow2651 10 місяців тому +60

      Doesn’t justify Arthur whatsoever

    • @Amk4421
      @Amk4421 10 місяців тому +139

      @@dogeshow2651don’t ask for money when you can’t pay it back when it’s time to pay up 😂

    • @marythecontrarian
      @marythecontrarian 10 місяців тому +54

      He already owed more on the house than it was worth meaning he was already in debt and Strauss is not the only loan shark tbh if it hadn’t been him it would have been someone else. The other loan sharks might not have physically beat Downes so he would have likely had a more dignified death but the wife having to sell herself and the son having to work in coal mines was going to happen whether or not he even took a loan, much less if he had taken it from someone other than Strauss.
      The amount of money Arthur or anyone else would have had to give him to keep his wife and child afloat would have been crazy. Yes, Arthur can afford it but most people could not. It was inevitable.

    • @marythecontrarian
      @marythecontrarian 10 місяців тому +38

      @@dogeshow2651no but it answers was everything Arthur’s fault. No. Beating him was Arthur’s fault, everything else was going to happen. Even if Arthur didn’t come to collect the debt at all, they were still in debt even then.

  • @Ivkoni
    @Ivkoni 10 місяців тому +379

    Interesting thing is that you can do the mission without laying a hand on Downes. You can just choose the intimidate option and Arthur won't hit him. He'll throw him to the ground in the cutscene, but no punches will be thrown.

    • @ChuloInYourCulo
      @ChuloInYourCulo 10 місяців тому +6

      Which is kinda pointless and annoying since Arthur still gets TB

    • @BH02377
      @BH02377 10 місяців тому +19

      That’s no fun!!

    • @Dr.Gainzzz
      @Dr.Gainzzz 10 місяців тому +121

      Let’s be honest though on our first play through almost 99% of us picked to beat him up. It’s canonically how the story is meant to unfold I believe.

    • @Qwertzuioyxcv
      @Qwertzuioyxcv 10 місяців тому +13

      @@Dr.Gainzzz Like no! When I played the game firts time than mutiple times my Arthus allways just threaten never hurts if I can choose not to. It is more fun that Arthur want to be and is a good man but hist family don't let him be.

    • @dastemplar9681
      @dastemplar9681 10 місяців тому +20

      But you still get infected with TB and the family still blames you for their downfall.

  • @thechosenone4422
    @thechosenone4422 10 місяців тому +92

    A minor easter egg, that connects RDR2 and GTA V: the golf club in GTA V were called by the name of Edith Downes. A small detail that perfectly connects and finishes this story

    • @kevinmcdonald951
      @kevinmcdonald951 8 місяців тому +2

      wrong

    • @titanusgodzillaa4274
      @titanusgodzillaa4274 7 місяців тому +15

      @@plebisMaximus California was mentioned multiple times in the story and even some animals have California in their name so its canon in rdr2

    • @plebisMaximus
      @plebisMaximus 7 місяців тому +2

      @@titanusgodzillaa4274 I'm a moron with a horrible memory, you are correct. Disregard previous comments.

    • @matthewfennell8283
      @matthewfennell8283 Місяць тому +1

      ​@@plebisMaximusbased

  • @troperhghar9898
    @troperhghar9898 10 місяців тому +147

    Arthur: stop lending money to desperate people who cant pay
    Strauss: rich people dont need my help, but my work keeps us fed

    • @dazmaz1269
      @dazmaz1269 10 місяців тому +55

      He says after I've caught the third meal for the day

  • @warmcanadain7649
    @warmcanadain7649 10 місяців тому +75

    9:58 she knows who Arthur is she even says “oh no, not you” she’s scared Arthur will hurt her family further

  • @cadence4527
    @cadence4527 10 місяців тому +170

    Two things:
    1. Edith actually comes to Horseshoe Overlook to confront Strauss after Thomas dies, informing him that Thomas had died and even pays off some of the debt.
    2: some NPCs around Valentine will elude to Thomas’ passing. I heard the shopkeeper at Wallace Station mention it and another instance, I heard the doctor in Valentine mention it as well all of this is before Strauss informs Arthur himself that Thomas had passed away.

    • @juhaeerjayran4246
      @juhaeerjayran4246 8 місяців тому +18

      man edith is a better tracker than the pinkertons

    • @1mdr0w5y
      @1mdr0w5y 3 місяці тому +4

      I never knew that, rdr2 has sm hidden details man

    • @juanluisquinteroreyes7108
      @juanluisquinteroreyes7108 2 місяці тому +1

      I always had the questions:
      1) How did Edith get the camp's location?
      2) Why did the gang let her go after it's evident she discovered their hideout? The latter's location was supposed to be a zealously guarded secret and Edith had all the reasons to report such location to the authorities.
      3) Once leaving, why did Edith did not report the location to the authorities? Being them the responsibles for her husband's assault, death and her and her son's desperate situation, she had more than enough motivation to report them, she would be the first one to want to see them in prison or hanging. Please don't tell me she did not know who they were, since they were the most wanted criminal gang in the USA, Arthur alone had a $5000 bounty on his head.

    • @joshmanis9860
      @joshmanis9860 Місяць тому +2

      @@juhaeerjayran4246that’s hilarious. A ranchers widow managed to find the van der lin gang before the pinkertons

    • @juhaeerjayran4246
      @juhaeerjayran4246 Місяць тому +1

      @@joshmanis9860 idk edith maybe the goat when it comes to tracking

  • @Merica1776o
    @Merica1776o 9 місяців тому +41

    11:55 I think Charles played a major role in the way Arthur turned out, especially his sacrifice. Charles demonstrated that you can be a loyal friend but still do what’s right, and he rightly called Arthur out on it. Virtue isn’t always convenient and we often don’t understand it. Until you end up in a better place, despite it’s difficultly. In this case Arthur found a better place to camp. Thats certainly one way in which God will test the hearts of men, unbeknownst by them. I’m also proud of Arthur’s humility when speaking with the nun. Rockstar and Obsidian have the best story writing imo.

  • @majorlagg9321
    @majorlagg9321 10 місяців тому +118

    I've played computer games since 1983.
    This one is the best game I ever played.

    • @siyacer
      @siyacer 7 місяців тому +5

      It must be crazy seeing how much games have evolved

    • @majorlagg9321
      @majorlagg9321 7 місяців тому +8

      @@siyacer From the days of Asteroids and Adventure? Yes. My kids don't understand how I'm fascinated with how well done these games are.

    • @الطابق30
      @الطابق30 7 місяців тому +1

      You must be a very, very expert in video games and know everything about games
      Video games amazing talent

    • @majorlagg9321
      @majorlagg9321 7 місяців тому

      @@الطابق30 I'm better at proper grammar. Something, you should try.

    • @johnrockyryan
      @johnrockyryan 4 місяці тому +2

      Damn bro that is amazing you saw the evolution of gaming and gaming consoles happen right before your eyes

  • @dudebro8811
    @dudebro8811 10 місяців тому +51

    I think the duality of Arthur between high and low honor is fascinating. Both are just as much who he is as the either, but this projection of what's inside to the outside world (to us, the audience). The honor system isn't come cosmic alignment between good or evil. It's how the character feels about themselves. Ultimately, playing Good Cowboy or Bad Cowboy doesn't make a difference. But the expression of the characters' internal dialog gives us real insight into the characters. Jack's expressions are much more plain to see because there really is no future for him, the story is over. If you think the concept is interesting as I do please cover it because your analysis is very welcome in the community.

  • @danielja1832
    @danielja1832 10 місяців тому +35

    I'll make a case for Strauss and Arthur here. Ultimately, they were doing what Dutch wanted them to do, which was make money the only way they knew how. I think I would be tempted to treat the gang like a business and say Dutch, as the leader, should be held responsible for the actions of his underlings. The gangs actions should be ultimately done under his supervision, and him held responsible for consequences. Everyone else was just surviving the only way they knew how. As the gangs leader, he had control over how Strauss and Arthur collected the money, and I believe Strauss is a Red Herring, or a scapegoat.
    Not that Strauss and Arthur have no responsibility whatsoever, to a degree they had their own agency, I just think people go way too hard on Strauss, when Dutch signed off on all his actions, and would not have kept him around if he wasn't making money.

  • @TheTwistedTraceur
    @TheTwistedTraceur 10 місяців тому +10

    i think guarma is the thing that made the tuberculosis truly come out in arthur, he was really fine before that

    • @stevepalpatine2828
      @stevepalpatine2828 10 місяців тому +6

      Tropical conditions and humidity is the worst environment possible for that kind of illness.
      Before antibiotics people with consumption (TB) were advised to stay in places with clean dry air, a lot of sanitoriums where in the desert and in arid alpine environments.
      Living in the Bayou swamps for months, and then being shipwrecked and being stuck on a tropical island, and then Beaver Hollow which has constant rain accelerated his illness.
      People could and did live for years with TB provided they stayed in dry climates.
      Doc Holliday had TB for years before he died.

    • @goduxunike
      @goduxunike 10 місяців тому +2

      Solid point. Before the TB diagnosis, I assumed he looked sick because of some other disease from the island. Before he really looked fine. But what you wrote makes more sense.

  • @digitalbathrx4529
    @digitalbathrx4529 10 місяців тому +6

    Just started up an old save I was playing early last year. And I ran into Mrs Downes in Saint Denis. Could not for the life of me remember who she was. And this video pops up. Thank you!

  • @Fishpasta4
    @Fishpasta4 10 місяців тому +21

    Arthur is no more responsible for Thomas Downs' fate than Thomas is responsible for Arthur's, they are both symptoms of wider issues in each others lives.
    For Thomas, Arthur is the embodiment of his desperation brought about by his failing health & finances. Turning to a loan shark to try and fix things in the short term which leads to Arthur shortening his life.
    For Arthur, Thomas is the embodiment of the consequences resulting from the lifestyle he has led for most of his life. While he may not have been actively aware of it Arthur's actions do have an affect and eventually these things catch up to you. This is shown literally when Arthur contracts TB from Thomas, something that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't collecting debts for Strauss.
    If I were to point a finger I'd point both fates to Strauss himself. Strauss targeted the Downes family specifically because they were destitute and had no alternative, Arthur himself tells Strauss how foolish it was to loan money to a family that had no means of paying it back. Meanwhile Strauss specifically instructs Arthur to not go gentle on Thomas because he 'doesn't like his sort' an act that would lead to Arthur's own downfall which Arthur comes to realize during his last days when he reflects on his life and the choices he has made.

  • @stassie23
    @stassie23 8 місяців тому +5

    Thomas could have died next day anyways either with his meeting with Arthur or without. Who would she blame? They already were broke af, so I didn’t blame Arthur to be honest. Just that woman decided to put all her emotions on Arthur.

  • @anthonyholmes5965
    @anthonyholmes5965 10 місяців тому +10

    I did catch this interaction of her in camp this last play through. I slowed down for awhile and caught a lot more conversations I’ve always missed.

  • @s0upra536
    @s0upra536 Місяць тому +3

    Thomas Downes was a nice man. He was in crippling debt and extreme financial troubles, yet he still had the heart to raise money for the poor. He can even be seen donating money to beggers.
    Thomas was doing everything he could to help his family. He knew his time was coming, so he decided to do as many nice things as possible, including making money for the poor.
    Rest In Peace Thomas Downes, you were one of the nicest characters in all of RDR2

  • @shinrugal
    @shinrugal 10 місяців тому +78

    While Arthur didn't kill him he definitely accelerated Thomas's demise. If you remember the first time you meet Thomas is when you go to Valentine with Uncle and the girls. He's building a charity house, which goes unfinished due to his death. That charity house theoretically could've fed his family for years after his death if he could have been left to finish it. Tuberculosis would've killed him within a few years but at least his family would have been taken care of.

    • @andrewf9423
      @andrewf9423 10 місяців тому +9

      Is that house finished in the epilogue?

    • @shinrugal
      @shinrugal 10 місяців тому +8

      @andrewf9423 no it never gets done. Or rather it might be built but it's repurposed for something else.

    • @IrishColin
      @IrishColin 9 місяців тому +12

      Except Downes owed more money than his own house was worth between all the debt collectors he borrowed from, and if it’s for charity that it’s not like that house was gonna give him all sorts of cash. In case you’re unaware it can’t be called charity if you sell it for full price. Even if he did though, at best he would’ve paid back his debts but his family would still be destitute. The reality is Thomas Downes ruined his families lives with his choices.

    • @shinrugal
      @shinrugal 8 місяців тому

      @JohnMarston1911s it was repurposed as something else

  • @liammurphy2022
    @liammurphy2022 10 місяців тому +23

    Has anyone noticed when Arthur picks up the cross of the floor and mrs downes is in the same shot u think it could be the first time he starts to feel bad about his choices that's what I got from it just a nice little detail I put together the other day during my 3rd play through (probably just me😂)

  • @tacosaus5924
    @tacosaus5924 10 місяців тому +114

    I think it was good for the Downes that Arthur came into their lives since without the money he gave them in the last encounter, they wouldn't be able to get anywhere. Even if Arthur hadn't beaten Thomas, he still would've died from the TB, making his family have no money and thus sending them deeper into poverty.

    • @whodatn4l948
      @whodatn4l948 10 місяців тому

      Arthur expedited his death by beating him into a pulp, who knows how much time he had left, he could've had time to make more money and keep the house...he still would've died but maybe they could've kept the house and Edith wouldn't have had to turn to prostitution.

    • @thebandit9982
      @thebandit9982 10 місяців тому +1

      Arthur only caught TB cuz of the beating. He was in Downes face and that’s when Arthur got coughed on. So no Arthur wouldn’t of caught TB had he not beaten downes

    • @sociopathicsquirrel3989
      @sociopathicsquirrel3989 10 місяців тому +32

      I think he meant thomas wouldve died from the TB regardless if Arthur beat him

    • @tacosaus5924
      @tacosaus5924 10 місяців тому +2

      @@sociopathicsquirrel3989 exactly

    • @violetaa_aa
      @violetaa_aa 10 місяців тому +2

      I'm fairly sure the Downes family even ends up wealthy by the epilogue, because of arthurs money giving them a new opportunity.

  • @GamingSkeptic
    @GamingSkeptic 10 місяців тому +12

    Arthur accelerated the inevitable. As you said maybe that's the better way for them cause now rather than blaming God they could blame Arthur and keep their sanity. I'm so glad they made money in the end. Beautiful story overall and that's just a side story.

  • @VileMr.Grinch
    @VileMr.Grinch 10 місяців тому +90

    The lack of understanding how the body works, and the Arthur meat riding in the comments is wild.
    Arthur 100% accelerated Thomas Downes death, his body is already quite weak with his immune system trying to fight off one hell of an illness, fever, cold sweats, shivers, and now it suffers the trauma of being punched, kicked and thrown about like a ragdoll by an absolute unit of an outlaw (hardened and used to fighting) in his physical prime. Downes even has to pull himself up with the fence because he's so weak after the beating he can't even stand on his own.
    Did he make a stupid, desperate decision in taking the loan ? Yes. Did he deserve what he got ? Absolutely not.
    Arthur CHOSE to beat an already dying man, and that imo, is THE most cruel and despicable thing we see Arthur do during the game that is out of our control, he also wouldn't have contracted TB if he wasn't so eager to beat Downes.

    • @hornetguy9063
      @hornetguy9063 10 місяців тому +19

      Fair. But this is basically how loan sharks have always operated. They target people who are denied financing elsewhere, because lenders who only have legal means of getting their money back see them as too risky to lend to. Sharks have enforcers like this.
      So it’s probably not the first time Arthur has beaten a man up in search of payment. He had no idea Downes was essentially dying of TB. But it really comes down to organized crime being a nasty thing.

    • @ambientnoiseaddict
      @ambientnoiseaddict 10 місяців тому

      Dick riding or not, you still sound like you're taking this wayyy too serious/personal yourself.

    • @VileMr.Grinch
      @VileMr.Grinch 10 місяців тому +4

      @@hornetguy9063 No I know all this, but I'm not talking about the ones we don't see in his past.
      The ones we do see, like Winton Holmes, Wrobel, the kid in Rhodes, but specifically Wrobel you can get away with simply intimidating him, you don't even have to take the gold ring if you already know about it and don't want to do that to him, so we know Arthur is capable of not beating them to a pulp.
      But with Downes we are forced to beat him, and in the cutscene it continues a bit, it's completely out of our control, it's all Arthur's own decision

    • @mrspo7012
      @mrspo7012 10 місяців тому +1

      You are right, the same thing Micah did to Arthur.

    • @batkat0
      @batkat0 9 місяців тому +6

      I think a lot of people underestimate how damaging a hard punch or kick can be.

  • @dmc6617
    @dmc6617 10 місяців тому +3

    I am simply amazed about the level of detail Rockstar put in this story. And also about your effort to uncover and explain allof this. Thank you!

  • @manbearpig342
    @manbearpig342 10 місяців тому +24

    Makes you wonder what would have happened if Arthur didn't beat Mr. Downes. Obviously he still would have died but would his family have been any better off? Perhaps, but maybe not, one could make the argument that had Arthur not done what he did and given them money they may have stayed poor and destitute.
    Im not suggesting what Arthur did was right but maybe it gave them a life they wouldn't have had otherwise.

    • @IrishColin
      @IrishColin 9 місяців тому +2

      They would definitely still be destitute because he already owed more than his house was worth aside from the debt to Strauss. More than that though is Downes was a grown man and made his own decisions. I think money lending is dirty work for sure but I have ZERO sympathy for those who borrow and can’t pay it back because they made a choice knowing full well the consequences (which everyone back then did) including beatings, debtors prison, losing what you own etc. I’ve spent my life in poverty but I’ve never borrowed money I couldn’t pay back no matter how tough things got because my poverty is NO ONE else’s responsibility.

    • @mieszkoi2746
      @mieszkoi2746 9 місяців тому

      ​@@IrishColin Human life is more important than money, Mr Downes made dumb decision with lending money but that does not mean he deserves dying. You should have zero sympathy to the people that lend money to desperate people and then cause psyhical harm to them when they cant pay back. Banks wont lend you money when you cant pay it back

  • @SillyNacho
    @SillyNacho 7 місяців тому +5

    14:00 - You couldn't have worded that ANY WORSE

  • @hrodebrt
    @hrodebrt 10 місяців тому +14

    It honestly all comes back to Dutch, there's a conversation between Arthur and Dutch where he convinces Arthur to help Strauss if you wait on the missions. This is also why I don't believe Dutch was ever a "good" outlaw, he knew what Strauss was doing was immoral at best but because it made HIM money he allowed it and even pushed for it.

    • @Foogi9000
      @Foogi9000 2 місяці тому

      Exactly

    • @JimIBobIJones
      @JimIBobIJones Місяць тому

      Dutch (moreso than anyone else in the series) embodies the wild west that existed before "civilization" and modernization. Its the unstoppable march of progress that brings an end to it and the gang's way of life.
      What's left intentionally ambiguous was whether the ethics and values the gang lived by was ever real or always illusionary: did the end of their way of life bring about Dutch's fall from grace and his turn to villainy or did it just reveal Dutch for the villain he always was? The fact that it isn't clear and is left to the player to decide for themselves is part of the artistry of the series.

  • @theneweraofmusic5578
    @theneweraofmusic5578 10 місяців тому +95

    You need to cover the fact of how Arthur could have been an amazing father. Like literally just how much the youngsters meant to him despite of him being a ruthless and honestly a cold killer but he’s a teddy bear once you get to know him. And I know you’re up for the task of him being a father or a father figure.

    • @assbutt6969
      @assbutt6969 10 місяців тому

      he was a father

    • @theneweraofmusic5578
      @theneweraofmusic5578 10 місяців тому +8

      @@assbutt6969 he was but not to the full extent… you see he tells rains falls that he has a son but he didn’t had that interaction on a daily basis and plus he die so young that I don’t really count it. Now with Jack you can see how he is or with Lenny, Archie, hell even kirean the “o Driscoll”

    • @alienlife7754
      @alienlife7754 10 місяців тому +16

      I don’t think Arthur would have been as good a father as you think. Remember when he and Hosea were discussing Hosea’s past marriage on their hunting trip? Hosea tried it but in the end drifted back into the life. I think Arthur would have been the same. Maybe he would send money to the woman raising his child and be a “pop in dad” every now and then but I don’t think he would have stuck around and become a farmer. In the end that’s what he wanted for John because because he knew John could do it. But he hi self? No.

    • @ChasenColeman
      @ChasenColeman 10 місяців тому

      I think arthur would be as or just as good as john, john kinda neglected jack and abigail for a while if arthur settled down like john did, im sure they would both be good fathers@@alienlife7754

    • @hornetguy9063
      @hornetguy9063 10 місяців тому +12

      @@alienlife7754do remember that back then, a woman having a child out of wedlock was basically a social death sentence. Making sure she was taken care of while not being able to physically be there was pretty big of Arthur. If not for misplaced loyalty, he probably would’ve stuck around and took care of his family. His failure to do so ate at him

  • @warrengouldthorpe5091
    @warrengouldthorpe5091 10 місяців тому +7

    Mrs Downes and Archie probably reminded Arthur of his own son and his kids mum

  • @androrobuiques9497
    @androrobuiques9497 10 місяців тому +21

    How many other families have suffered a similar faith after their father or husband or brother or son was gunned down by Arthur's own hand?

    • @TherealDexterMorgan
      @TherealDexterMorgan 5 місяців тому +1

      Arthur Morgan clears

    • @NamesPhimble
      @NamesPhimble 4 місяці тому +1

      You can’t change Arthur Stan’s minds

    • @ros3m4ries
      @ros3m4ries 2 місяці тому

      I jist started the game and spend 46 hours into it. Though i believe that answer depends on how you played the game. I made sure to avoid killing innocent or even animals. Though i might have killed cops or hostile npc that could theoretically.

  • @Aurainmaker
    @Aurainmaker 10 місяців тому +32

    There are several answers to the title, as it is more nuanced than a broad strokes question. Is it's Arthur's fault that Thomas died? Sort of, with a stronger bias to yes. The beating surely accelerated the TB, Arthur's TB also accelerates when he takes beatings and other similar bad health situations (Like Colm's torture, Guarma as a whole, the ending). Thomas was going to die anyway but it would have taken longer and Arthur was particularly brutal to Thomas who he knew was poorly because he didn't like him. If had been more merciful or pulled a gun on him instead of beating him, Arthur would not have caught the TB.
    Is what happened to the Downes family Arthur's fault? No. It's Strauss' fault. He predates on people who won't be able to pay back properly and Arthur was basically just a sentient baseball bat that Strauss used to extort the money out of Downes. Strauss is probably the worst of the gang, including Rat Bell and Dutch the Plan Man.

    • @IrishColin
      @IrishColin 9 місяців тому +3

      Actually what happened to Downes and his family is Thomas’s fault. No one forced a grown man to take a loan he couldn’t repay on top of his other loans he couldn’t repay. How about some accountability here. I’ve said it in other comments but I think money lending is a dirty business but ultimately the choice to take a loan falls on the debtor, he was a grown man not a naive child, not someone mentally disabled, but a grown man. He knew the consequences of not repaying which he knew damn well he wouldn’t be able to repay. At what age do your choices become your fault?!?! Also don’t say I wouldn’t know because I’ve spent my life up until now in poverty and have never borrowed money I couldn’t repay no matter how bad things got because in the end your poverty is YOUR OWN responsibility and NO ONE else’s. I believe in helping people but that doesn’t mean it’s ok to borrow when you can’t repay essentially forcing the lender into being charity that they didn’t chose, that’s essentially just scamming someone out of money.

    • @Aurainmaker
      @Aurainmaker 9 місяців тому

      @@IrishColin I'm not going to comment on your personal life but I'm sorry you've had to live through it. Think the overall point is simplistic. Downes has some responsibility, but it plays into the greater point of the capitalist society pushing the money rules the world appraoch further west. You can't live without it, and Sharks circle those who need it because they're the prey.

  • @joelcarver8932
    @joelcarver8932 10 місяців тому +5

    I love how that guy says "you couldn't kill no one" and then Arthur later beats the sh*t out of Micah about 1 min. before he dies of TB. Tough as nails to the bitter end.

  • @scrubbear2425
    @scrubbear2425 10 місяців тому +6

    Woah, I never noticed Thomas was there at the fist fight

  • @SIsReal
    @SIsReal 10 місяців тому +4

    14:36 you know a game and character is written well when you start to tear up just thinking about Arthur

  • @mimonikeda5768
    @mimonikeda5768 10 місяців тому +79

    Downes knew exactly what he was doing when he borrowed the money from Strauss. Arthur is in no way responsible for his death. Thomas would have died and his family would have wound up poor regardless of what Arthur did.

    • @jacktaylor8195
      @jacktaylor8195 8 місяців тому

      Think about it. If it wasn't Authur, it would probably be Micah who Strauss sent to retrieve the debt. And he would have absolutely robbed and killed the whole family.

  • @dastemplar9681
    @dastemplar9681 10 місяців тому +5

    In the end, Arthur does show the Downes family that he truly was sincerely sorry and deeply regrets for where he put the family. Both parties know and acknowledge that he can’t fix what he has done, but the Downes were at least able to see that there was indeed a change of heart in Arthur.

  • @Phantom-iv7lb
    @Phantom-iv7lb 7 місяців тому +3

    I think what makes Arthurs moments in Annesburg with the Downes family even more tear jerking is that when Arthur gets to Archie at the mine and Archie proclaims that Arthur killed his dad, Arthur just stays in silent agreement which turns into a subtle admition of guilt when faced with the foreman he just says he's gonna kill him too as if he's agreeing to Archies prior comment.

  • @hopelesswolfkin5353
    @hopelesswolfkin5353 10 місяців тому +3

    Aggravated assault which in turn aggravated Downes tuberculosis, tuberculosis itself has progression almost exclusively tapered by immune system strength when taken into account alongside how ideal the current environment is for tuberculosis replication. Healing is one of the more taxing immune system processes lengthy and resources intensive already being compromised, even if not from the beating itself this beating especially from a low honor Arthur would be very difficult on his body that was already fighting tuberculosis.

  • @theejshow758
    @theejshow758 10 місяців тому +2

    I feel like the Downes family situation wasn't supposed to be a direct comment on Arthur's wrongdoing, but rather a general collection of what Arthur has done wrong. While the Downes situation may not be entirely his fault, the interactions he has with them is supposed to be a symbol for every other awful thing Arthur has done. When Arthur helps them in the "Do Not Seek Absolution" he isn't looking for forgiveness or is not seeking absolution from them, but trying to put right in the world where he has done wrong, with the Downes being the people plaguing his mind due to the punishment he receives from his actions towards them. The Downes are a symbol for all the other people he has hurt.

  • @richardemmart1954
    @richardemmart1954 10 місяців тому +3

    Debts are debts and should be paid. Any attempt to avoid the debt is trying to take advantage of the people you owe the money to and is highly disrespectful. When others wouldn't take a chance on your, they gave you a chance.

  • @billbombshiggy9254
    @billbombshiggy9254 10 місяців тому +7

    Okay, I have first hand knowledge of TB. I can tell you that you usually don't just contract it and start showing symptoms. You contract it and your body fights it, making you have it BUT you are asymptomatic. It's called latent TB. My husband and brothers in law contracted it from my father in law who, as the doctor said, likely contracted it years ago from someone who was active, and the stroke he had, triggered it. His body was weak and couldn't keep fighting it, causing him to go into active TB and start showing symptoms and becoming contagious.
    Latent TB is not contagious.
    My FIL, when he was in the midst of active TB, even a minor beating from a tiny girl like me (5'4" 125lbs) would have killed him. He's quite lucky we have modern medicine. One year of antibiotics later and he was cleared entirely. He had to do like six months of antibiotics before he wasn't even contagious anymore.
    So yes, Arthur did kill him. But I see what you mean that back then, he would likely die of it, and Arthur just sped it along.
    My question is what caused Arthur to go into active as fast as he did?
    I have to assume he was latent or would have been for a while, until the beating from the Odriscolls, combine that with all the stress from the gang, and his immune system probably wasnt up to par and it's why he went into active so quick.
    But you can take solace in the fact, likely everyone in that gang caught it from him, Micah included. Yes, poor Tilly, Mary Beth, etc.
    Whether or not they stayed latent through their lives is another question.
    Had dutch not taken the leap of faith, had John not killed Javier and Micah, and they likely would have died of TB.

    • @aleNoyz91
      @aleNoyz91 10 місяців тому

      TB doesnt exist anymore

    • @billbombshiggy9254
      @billbombshiggy9254 10 місяців тому +1

      @@aleNoyz91 I think you're thinking of smallpox. TB absolutely still exists and is still a problem in many parts of the world.
      Unless you're just joking around.
      Hard to tell.
      Either way, Google is your friend.

    • @MrsJasmyn45
      @MrsJasmyn45 10 місяців тому +2

      ​@aleACAB91 Oh, yes, it does. Tuberculosis is still around, and 1 million people die every year from it. We now have different kinds like DRTB. That stands for Drug Resistant Tuberculosis. This means medications won't touch this type of TB. Some research on your part might be a good idea

    • @billbombshiggy9254
      @billbombshiggy9254 10 місяців тому

      Also, isn't the theory that Abigail died of TB?

    • @billbombshiggy9254
      @billbombshiggy9254 10 місяців тому +1

      @@aleNoyz91 and yes, it absolutely does. I thought I had responded to you before about this, but it does. You may be thinking of smallpox which was labeled eradicated by the WHO in the 70s and by the 80s all routine vaccinations had stopped.

  • @mttokrnk
    @mttokrnk 10 місяців тому +4

    Imagine arthur getting salvia into the stew and everybody died of tb

  • @TheWilku22
    @TheWilku22 10 місяців тому +4

    Arthur sped up the process, but Mr Downes would die anyway and his family would end up in the slums. The truth is all three of them are guilty - Arthur for being brutal, Strauss for being an agressive loan shark who will even target dead debtor;s family and Mr Downes for taking money to build fundation to get money for poor.

  • @Novocane23
    @Novocane23 9 місяців тому +5

    Saying that Arthur was responsible for Downes death is like shooting someone who is already fatally wounded. Perhaps Arthur shortened his time on this earth, but by how much? A few days? A few weeks? Maybe months?
    Typically, after symptoms manifest tuberculosis is fatal within 30 days to 3 years without some form of treatment. There were some forms of treatment, even in 1899, but most people couldn't afford to move somewhere warm/dry and relax. Just like we see Arthur continue to do his best for the gang as the sickness claims him, extended bed rest and relaxation just wasn't something the common person could afford. Which brings us back to Thomas Downes, he was out tending to his field, which is physical work. The area of the Downes ranch is just east of the Grizzlies, between Strawberry and Valentine. It can get pretty cold at night and during the winter, an environment that isn't great for TB patients.
    So realistically, at the point he's coughing when we meet him at his ranch, I would say he has at most a month left. We also don't know the exact timeframe from our beating of Thomas and Strauss telling us about his death. Possibly a couple of days to a week.
    At the end of the day, I don't believe Arthur was to blame for what happened to the Downes family following their first encounter. My grandfather once said that life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you deal with it. In the end, it was Edith's choice to become a prostitute and refuse to leave the region.

    • @fuejrbtb
      @fuejrbtb 6 місяців тому

      Yeah, Arthur is just a good man for helping them

    • @puncake8945
      @puncake8945 2 місяці тому

      Do you think women had choices in 1899? Lmaooo

  • @AMAZINGMAN198
    @AMAZINGMAN198 10 місяців тому +2

    I am loving these analysis videos. Keep up the good work my man!😁

  • @Shade04rek
    @Shade04rek 10 місяців тому +8

    I have a thought after reading some comments. I think contracting TB is what saved Arthur mentally and morally. It might depend a bit on how you played him, but generally the story seems to try and show that Arthur is more ruthless up until that point of being sick and seeing the damage his past actions caused for others, if not only mentally, since I think the Downes's where already on this path even if Arthur never was involved.
    The interesting point I have though is that if Arthur never contracted TB, I think he would have remained more ruthless and unsympathetic to others, although while still knowing what's right, but also just not caring because of his own strength in self-preserving. I feel that strength kind of enables him to be willfully ignorant of his opportunities to do good, like when Charles needed to push him to not ignore the german family's plight by "playing evil" when Arthur in fact knows better. It makes me wonder if that healthy version of Arthur would have deterred Micah from poking and prodding him, which only happens because Micah notices Arthur's weakness of being sick. Micah might have been more of a suck up instead, while trying to "recruit" him to his thinking and style. Arthur's social status would have been even more feared and respected throughout many events, and he might even have stayed sided with Dutch in the end over helping John and the other "defecting" members. He'd maybe even make it to the events of rdr1 as a target, provided John would even survive with Arthur on the Dutch's side.

    • @deleted_acoount_0530
      @deleted_acoount_0530 9 місяців тому

      I think the canon may be: play low honor, get TB, then play high honor to redeem him.

  • @madd.villain
    @madd.villain 10 місяців тому +2

    I've always interpreted the Downes' family situation as Thomas being the fulcrum of not only their moral compasses but also the reason they were able to live soundly. The two would rather blame Arthur for their husband/father's demise than own up to their shortcomings as people. Archie always came off as a lackadaisical "woe is me" kind of person that was living off his family's land, and Edith felt like she needed her husband's guidance to a more just life.
    I think it's a fairly accurate representation on how some mourn the loss of loved ones in real life, some fall victim to the grief and want to blame others for what's happened. Just another subplot in the game that I really enjoyed playing through.

  • @loudelk99
    @loudelk99 10 місяців тому +3

    Downes borrowed the money. He had to know that someone would be by to reclaim the money.

  • @AndreiPopescu
    @AndreiPopescu 9 місяців тому +2

    I think the Downes were lucky Arthur agreed to visit them. Imagine what would have happened if he refused and Strauss would have sent Micah Bell instead.

  • @Rucker1980
    @Rucker1980 10 місяців тому +2

    If Arthur hadn't beaten Thomas, his family would have died. Wow, i never thought of that

  • @DANKY-LEAF
    @DANKY-LEAF Місяць тому +1

    I believe Strauss knew he had TB

  • @JubeiKibagamiFez
    @JubeiKibagamiFez 5 місяців тому +1

    3:39 Here's the thing, the first time I played this mission, I only threatened Downes, I never beat him. When he didn't give up the money, I thought there might have been an alternate ending to the mission, so I reloaded and did the mission again, beating Downes severely, with the same mission ending. The player doesn't have to beat Downes at all to complete the mission, therefore, Thomas Downes' fate would still have been the same, he would've have died, they would've have lost the farm, and the mother and son would've been left destitute.
    The son blames Arthur because the son has no one else to blame, and it's easy to blame a heartless thug who only cares about money.

  • @wadeintonature2975
    @wadeintonature2975 10 місяців тому +3

    Thomas should have never taken the money from Straus. It is Thomas fault.

  • @endeavor691
    @endeavor691 10 місяців тому +4

    0:03 Before watching the video I would have to say by the time Arthur got to them it was already too late because Thomas fell for Strauss manipulation’s I mean, if you think about it Strauss could have sent John or Micah and the outcome would be the same

  • @firesighnavatar3283
    @firesighnavatar3283 8 місяців тому +1

    I started a new game last week and noticed something. Arthur coughs at the end of the robbery mission with Javier, as Javier is leaving and he's in the barn. this happens regardless of whether Arthur has gone after Downes yet or not, because I chose to put that off as long as I possibly could so Arthur would be healthy for as long as possible during the game. we all know there's no saving him, but that doesn't mean we can't put it off just a wee bit longer. and while this could have been a throwaway thing on that mission, I don't think it was. Arthur doesn't start coughing again until the disease picks up, and I didn't notice anyone else doing it without some aggravating factor like a cloud of dust. Javier's mission doesn't show up until after Arthur has the bar fight that spills into the street. the one Downes intervenes in. and I think THAT is when Arthur got it. the thing with TB, the reason my skin crawled whenever Arthur got too close to anyone in the game, is TB is airborne. just the act of coughing or singing or whatever is enough to spread it. and Downes coughs in Arthur's face when he intervenes in that fight. I think Arthur was doomed after that fight, before he went to confront Downes at all.

  • @ImThatDeadpool
    @ImThatDeadpool 8 місяців тому +9

    Nobody forced Thomas to borrow the money.

  • @wasabi5338
    @wasabi5338 9 місяців тому +4

    Thomas was already a dead man walking at that point. Arthur killed him but honestly it was probably for the best that High Honor Arthur tried to make it right, because without him giving the Downes some money before he died (giving them a chance to leave and start new lives) then Mrs. Downes would probably continued working as a prostitute and Archie would get worked to death in the mines.

  • @Big-w9r
    @Big-w9r 10 місяців тому +1

    15:28 "arther puts his hands on the forman" forman: gets slammed to the ground

  • @Stormyy6310
    @Stormyy6310 10 місяців тому +1

    I think the Golf course of the Downes family is the Golf course in Los Santos (in GTA V)

  • @alexandercope4049
    @alexandercope4049 10 місяців тому +1

    11 years later and this video is still being used to teach apprentice mechanics about alignments

  • @raze5783
    @raze5783 10 місяців тому +2

    Thomas Downes would’ve died from TB regardless, which would’ve resulted in Mrs. Downes and their son living in poverty anyways. It was inevitable.

  • @aeoey5251
    @aeoey5251 10 місяців тому +1

    The dad was already dying and he accepted money from a loan shark. The dad is at fault.

  • @tomzydaone8976
    @tomzydaone8976 10 місяців тому +4

    I know this might sound stupid but I heard a theory that says that Jamie is not actually Mary Linton’s brother but he’s hers and Arthur’s son. However since her father despises Arthur’s lifestyle and the fact that he’s an outlaw, he raised as his own instead of grandchild.

    • @dylanbyrne9597
      @dylanbyrne9597 10 місяців тому +2

      As much as I would like to agree with you Mary and Arthur would have to have been very young in order for Jamie to be their son because Jamie I think is 20 when you meet him in the game and I don't know how old Arthur is I just know he's in his late 30s and Mary ia at least 41

    • @theimperialist2686
      @theimperialist2686 10 місяців тому

      @@dylanbyrne9597 Arthur and Mary are in their mid to late 30s.

    • @dylanbyrne9597
      @dylanbyrne9597 10 місяців тому +1

      ​@@theimperialist2686OK thanks for Clarifying that for me

    • @theimperialist2686
      @theimperialist2686 10 місяців тому

      @@dylanbyrne9597 No problem

    • @tomzydaone8976
      @tomzydaone8976 10 місяців тому

      @@dylanbyrne9597 wait Jamie is 20?

  • @cb-9938
    @cb-9938 4 місяці тому

    What always broke my heart is when Arthur says "don't thank me" after helping Edith and her son

  • @lewis9159
    @lewis9159 10 місяців тому +9

    In part, yes, because he still took money off desperate people and assaulted a very ill man. Thomas Downes was trying his best, despite his illness, to provide for his family at a time when poor farmers had very few means of getting medical or financial help.
    Arthur isn't solely responsible, the society of the time was brutal for the sick and the poor, but he isn't completely innocent either.

  • @GhostRydr1172
    @GhostRydr1172 8 місяців тому

    Arthur's VA really did a fantastic job in that last cutscene. The pain and remorse in his voice was just heartbreaking.

  • @panxinator644
    @panxinator644 10 місяців тому +1

    I hope Arthur could've let go Thomas, the Downes would've probably end being there at Annesbourg.
    Being able to let go Thomas not only Arthur wouldn't get Tuberculosis, this would surely mean either Micah is even more of a rat and would try to take Arthur out in another way, because I'm sure Micah would have betrayed the Van Der Linde anyways, or Arthur would've taken Micah down quite easily.
    For the Downes maybe Arthur could've helped them with the mines and get some information in a possible "I have a plan" from Dutch and attack the mines, obviously failing because of the intervention of the Pinkertons.

  • @jimlevenstein7227
    @jimlevenstein7227 2 місяці тому +3

    I blame Mr Downes

  • @Heisen_burger-dude
    @Heisen_burger-dude 10 місяців тому +1

    I hate how so many people people just defend Arthur for no matter what.
    Like seriously, these people don't understand the story at all.
    Arthur himself knows he isn't a good person. At the end he just fixed what he could

  • @MrsJasmyn45
    @MrsJasmyn45 10 місяців тому +3

    If you don't think the attack did anything horrible to Downes, then you do not understand much about a sickness like TB and the strain it puts on the body. Cause when a person is at a late stage of TB like Downes was, the body isn't able to recuperate. It's unable to heal from the wounds. The body is in a tired state, where moving around is a challenge on patients. That's why when you see a person who is sick without the ability to walk or get out of bed, that's the result of a debilitating illness, which is what TB is. To say that it only affects the lungs, you don't know anything about the body, or even tuberculosis, for that matter. I think it's important for you to research this horrific illness before saying anything like that.

  • @TPFB129
    @TPFB129 10 місяців тому +8

    It's not Arthur's fault. It was the TB and Strauss.

  • @Petmyhead
    @Petmyhead 10 місяців тому +2

    ultimately it's the faullt of the dad and strauss

  • @love_craft6524
    @love_craft6524 2 місяці тому +3

    Not Authors fault. It's like blaming the hangman instead of the judge.

  • @enigma7310
    @enigma7310 10 місяців тому +15

    *The kiss assing for Arthur in these comments are crazy, but if Micah did the same thing to the debt victims yall would had hold nothing back....*

    • @redfs7414
      @redfs7414 3 місяці тому

      If it wasn’t Arthur it could’ve been Charles. Or Micah. If Strauss hadn’t lent him money another loan shark he couldn’t pay back would have. Thomas Downes destroyed his own family

    • @enigma7310
      @enigma7310 3 місяці тому

      @@redfs7414 *But if you was Thomas Downes and you were just trying to feed your family in the 1800s where they barely had toilets you will beg to differ, they were desperate, The Vanderlinde gang where just a gang of Vicious outlaws just like the rest of them making lives harder for people than they already were...😂🤷*

  • @buruzn09
    @buruzn09 2 місяці тому

    Roger Clark did such an amazing job in this game, and it’s on full display in this storyline.

  • @realQuestion
    @realQuestion 10 місяців тому +17

    They borrowed money and didn't pay it back. How could their fate be Arthur's fault because he was sent to make them to do what they agreed to??

    • @IrishColin
      @IrishColin 9 місяців тому +3

      Right! So many people take no accountability for themselves and they then project that into how they feel for Downes and act like he was some poor victim instead of what he really was, someone who kept borrowing money despite how it’d destroy his families lives all while knowing he would die before he could ever come close to paying it all off this leaving his debt to his wife and son. He was a big boy and made his choice to borrow money knowing what a loan entailed, Strauss didn’t put a gun to his head and force him to borrow anything. I can’t stand how many people have no sense of accountability so your comment was nice to see.

    • @jozs8
      @jozs8 9 місяців тому +2

      arthur isn't at fault because of what he did (because he did what he was told to as you said) but because how he did it, arthur was a ruthless killer up to that point and he saw the gang before anything or anyone else, him beating mr. downs made his sickness worsen in a higher rate thus putting him into the ground much sooner but in actuality in this case everyone was at fault, arthur for choosing to beat a sick man for a few bucks, the downs family for taking the loan despite knowing they won't be financially stable enough to oay it back, and ofc strauss for loan sharking desperate people knowing well they won't be able to pay

    • @pepehabichuela1004
      @pepehabichuela1004 9 місяців тому

      It's about the interest on the loan, like the story of Merchant of Venice.

    • @jegr3398
      @jegr3398 8 місяців тому

      You really don't know that it's not morally or legally right to beat a sick and dying man who is desperately trying to provide for his wife and son? Doesn't matter if the gang loaned him money, it's still an evil thing to do. Yes it is Arthur's fault, and Strauss, and the gang and their loansharking practices. Arthur knows this, that's why he feels guilty about it in the later chapters.

  • @Kimberly-cx9uv
    @Kimberly-cx9uv 10 місяців тому +13

    No, actually not, she would've still ended up poor, plus her Husband knew what he was getting him and *HIS FAMILY* into, actually it's her Husbands fault, it was kind of Arhur to help, they/he knew the rules, and that's it.

    • @channel45853
      @channel45853 10 місяців тому +2

      That sounds like Dimitri's line of thinking.
      And still, it's Arthur's fault that Downes died as quickly as he did. Just because a car is gonna crash sometime, doesn't mean you're excused for crashing it.

    • @drrobotnik44
      @drrobotnik44 10 місяців тому

      ​@@channel45853 No, it's strauss's fault

    • @channel45853
      @channel45853 10 місяців тому +2

      ​@@drrobotnik44but Arthur actually did the job. Like the other men in the game, he could have said "No," to Strauss.

    • @drrobotnik44
      @drrobotnik44 10 місяців тому

      @@channel45853 then dutch probably would have said something about it

    • @Kimberly-cx9uv
      @Kimberly-cx9uv 10 місяців тому +1

      @@channel45853 That's the thing he would've died anyways, probably not even long enough to rake anything of worth up, but as he said in the Video he didn't really smack his Lungs or so.

  • @ChrisHarmon1
    @ChrisHarmon1 10 місяців тому

    I saw her when i saved the women in Beaver Hollow, but never again. I must not have gone back to Anne's Burg.

  • @sefmusic6273
    @sefmusic6273 11 днів тому

    I always imagine that Arthur felt for the Downes family (and kind of protective of them) because it was a lone woman and her son. He would leave his baby mama and their son (Issac) until one day they died *because* he was gone. In saving them, I imagine he feels a bit redeemed for not being there when those bandits killed those who were close to him.
    Arthur only mentions the girl and his son once in game, but that's the kind of background that's always there within him; and I feel like we really see that with how he treats the Downes.

  • @RoastedCharly
    @RoastedCharly 9 місяців тому +1

    rdr3 better be set in heaven where he tries searching for thomas and micah for killing him, having to kill god and stuff in the process

  • @RANDOMGUY5050
    @RANDOMGUY5050 10 місяців тому +1

    I didn’t even beat downes I just kept threatening him until the cutscene played where he coughed on Arthur

  • @JackBarry-f9s
    @JackBarry-f9s 10 місяців тому

    Love love love your channel brotha

  • @runicdiva
    @runicdiva 10 місяців тому +2

    Thomas Downes doomed his family, not Arthur. Downes could have gotten a loan from any other loan shark and it would have had the same outcome. I've known people who are like Downes, so charitable that they put themselves and their family into extreme poverty. I had an Evangelical Christian roommate years ago, she gave so much money to charities and her church that she only had $40 for food every month. I told her that she can't help others if she can't help herself. She didn't listen to me or her family that was telling her the same thing and things didn't turn out well for her.

    • @MIKE2111ful
      @MIKE2111ful 10 місяців тому +4

      And I bet you most of that money was not used for a good cause

    • @NAMI20207
      @NAMI20207 10 місяців тому +1

      What happened to her?

  • @CleverRiley9
    @CleverRiley9 10 місяців тому

    You know, i never made the connection between the end slide and it being Archie and Edith, just assumed it was the Gray and braithwaite kids for some reason.

  • @Zabrixis1919
    @Zabrixis1919 8 місяців тому

    Never realized Thomas stops you from killing the guy outside the bar, that’s crazy

  • @TygerClawGaming
    @TygerClawGaming 10 місяців тому +5

    Here's a hot take: Strauss is worse than Micah, Micah is an up front scum bag but at least he gets his hands dirty, Strauss sends others to do his dirty work. Arthur was being an enforcer, it's the same concept as people who borrow money from the Mob you know what you're getting into best to stay away from loan sharks. How much Arthur did or did not worsen his condition is unknown but at the end of the day Thomas Downes is responsible for that entire exchange.

    • @Ernesto-ir8ds
      @Ernesto-ir8ds 10 місяців тому

      yea well strauss is a pretty accurate depiction of "the chosen people"... always plotting, but cowardly in nature...

    • @stormichow5325
      @stormichow5325 10 місяців тому +1

      As a person? Definitely not. Yes, what Strauss was doing was wrong 100%, but at least he was loyal to the gang. Micah was there only to help himself, and all he did was cause trouble. Strauss at the very least expressed concern for others, even Arthur himself. Plus, Strauss didn't tell the Pinkertons anything that he knew, and he was tortured to death. This happens even if Arthur throws Strauss out of the camp, showing that he held no disdain for them even after they removed him.

    • @Ernesto-ir8ds
      @Ernesto-ir8ds 10 місяців тому

      @@stormichow5325 strauss was loyal only because it benefited him, if he could make more somewhere else, he would betray the gang in a heartbeat... such is the nature of his kind...

    • @aurairl6406
      @aurairl6406 10 місяців тому +1

      @@Ernesto-ir8dsthey literally say in the epilogue how Strauss was picked up by the Pinkertons and died in the custody, never saying a word about the gang.

  • @RomarioToretto
    @RomarioToretto 10 місяців тому +1

    You can assume to Syphilis killed her as it did to Al capone.

  • @plamf1278
    @plamf1278 10 місяців тому +1

    arthur paid the ultimate price for what he did to the family, he lost his life which he may have been fit enough to avoid, and his gang falling apart may have not been as much of a mess if he was still fit, I reckon the illness would have given micah leverage when whispering into dutch's ear

  • @user-fh5zb6bu4b
    @user-fh5zb6bu4b 10 місяців тому +1

    can you do a video on if jack got shipped to italy instead of going to bronte

  • @tigerfanfrv
    @tigerfanfrv 10 місяців тому

    the Downes took out too many loans and relied on a known loan shark.. TB was not curable at the time. Mrs. Downes had some other options, she could have become a seamstress, worked at a factory, a nanny, a housemaid, anything. She chose that path. they are responsible for their own downfall. What happened to the Downes family is not completely on Arthur's shoulders. Saying as much implies that is Arthur had never visited them they would financially stable family. Mr. Downes even said they own more than the farm is worth. That implies that they owe multiple people.

  • @juntacuyan462
    @juntacuyan462 8 місяців тому +4

    I don't blame Arthur for Thomas's death, Thomas has TB already and at its death's door, I blame Strauss for Thomas's and Arthur's death in the end.

  • @morgan0__o
    @morgan0__o 10 місяців тому +1

    Mr. Downes, despite his charity and good intentions, knew he was heading into his grave soon, and what does he decide to leave behind to his family? a debt that could have at best left his family destitute, and at worst, for all he knew regarding one of the most dangerous gangs, potentially murdered if someone more heartless got involved.
    imagine, for a minute, what would have happened if he borrowed money from a more brutal gang that would murder his family, or worse, if Micah was sent to deal with the debt. hell, even a bank would be more heartless than chapter 6 Arthur.
    and if Arthur didn't come along and give them money, his wife would resort to prostitution indefinitely, and his son would be doomed into being worked to death in the mines.

  • @KentaElZeroM
    @KentaElZeroM 7 місяців тому

    I actually felt bad playing through that mission.

  • @iceluvndiva21
    @iceluvndiva21 10 місяців тому +1

    Honestly? I'm glad the game makes it clear that forgiveness, revenge, and Redemption are all choices. Everyone has those choices and their reasons for it.

  • @cavemandude257
    @cavemandude257 10 місяців тому +1

    Actually I don’t care about the Downes family any more than I would care about any other npc in red dead.
    We mass murdered entire towns as Arthur and beat thousands of people. We are a piece of shit and not better than Micah in this regard. The fate of the Downes family is the same fate that countless other families had in this universe. I don’t like helping them in Chapter 6.
    I still appreciate the story of Arthur and how he redeems himself but it isn’t actually that logical. Fans tend to romanticize the story but if we look at it cold it doesn’t really make that much sense

  • @gfdrffd3279
    @gfdrffd3279 2 місяці тому +1

    If anything Arthur helped them he got rid of the financially irresponsible Thomas Downs who if anything would drive them further into to debt, and he hook them up with a lot of money in the later chapters

  • @gabrielreichert5362
    @gabrielreichert5362 10 місяців тому +1

    If strauss hadn't joined the gang Arthur would've gotten sick

  • @Lennox1224
    @Lennox1224 10 місяців тому +13

    Its not his fault, Downes was dying anyway and his wife would've still turned tricks to get by.

    • @channel45853
      @channel45853 10 місяців тому +6

      We are all gonna die, but that doesn't mean a murderer is excused for rushing the process

    • @Angeloading
      @Angeloading 10 місяців тому +6

      murdering someone thats dying doesnt justify it bro lmfaoo

    • @shinrugal
      @shinrugal 10 місяців тому +6

      Thomas could have lived another 5=10 years if not for the beating Arthur gave him. Remember that Arthur's disease was accelerated due to his capture and torture by Colm and the shipwreck. Without those events, he still would have been sick, but he would've lived longer before the illness killed him.

    • @TPFB129
      @TPFB129 10 місяців тому +2

      Was just going to say that!

    • @Lennox1224
      @Lennox1224 10 місяців тому +1

      @@Angeloading Nobody said it did, the question was , was it Arthur's fault that the family went broke, and no, it wasnt his fault, the family was already in debt with the bank before Strauss lent them money and Downes was already dying.

  • @jaylarkin4331
    @jaylarkin4331 2 місяці тому

    Definitely never knew Edith pulled up to camp 😅

  • @joenesvick7043
    @joenesvick7043 9 місяців тому +1

    "Well Thomas Downes did borrow money he couldn't repay, so who's really at fault 🤔, now one could also say Tom killed Arthur" lol 🤪

  • @AnonymousEnigma19
    @AnonymousEnigma19 10 місяців тому

    That's why Strauss when he was caught didn't say a dagum thing, in the end he blamed himself for what happened to Arthur because he's the one who sent him to collect the money from the guy.