In my opinion Arthur might have accelerated Downs' journey to the grave but ultimately the result would have been the same. The family was already in financial troubles and tuberculosis would have killed him at some point down the road.
It's not entirely Arthur's fault, what he pretty much did was speed up the process of driving the Downes into poverty. Thomas Downes was the one who willingly borrowed money from Strauss, so agreed to the terms of paying it back which he failed to comply with. Also, they were on the way to poverty whether Arthur was involved or not, since Thomas was dying of TB and that would have definitely put a strain on their finances.
He already owed more on the house than it was worth meaning he was already in debt and Strauss is not the only loan shark tbh if it hadn’t been him it would have been someone else. The other loan sharks might not have physically beat Downes so he would have likely had a more dignified death but the wife having to sell herself and the son having to work in coal mines was going to happen whether or not he even took a loan, much less if he had taken it from someone other than Strauss. The amount of money Arthur or anyone else would have had to give him to keep his wife and child afloat would have been crazy. Yes, Arthur can afford it but most people could not. It was inevitable.
@@dogeshow2651no but it answers was everything Arthur’s fault. No. Beating him was Arthur’s fault, everything else was going to happen. Even if Arthur didn’t come to collect the debt at all, they were still in debt even then.
Interesting thing is that you can do the mission without laying a hand on Downes. You can just choose the intimidate option and Arthur won't hit him. He'll throw him to the ground in the cutscene, but no punches will be thrown.
@@Dr.Gainzzz Like no! When I played the game firts time than mutiple times my Arthus allways just threaten never hurts if I can choose not to. It is more fun that Arthur want to be and is a good man but hist family don't let him be.
A minor easter egg, that connects RDR2 and GTA V: the golf club in GTA V were called by the name of Edith Downes. A small detail that perfectly connects and finishes this story
Two things: 1. Edith actually comes to Horseshoe Overlook to confront Strauss after Thomas dies, informing him that Thomas had died and even pays off some of the debt. 2: some NPCs around Valentine will elude to Thomas’ passing. I heard the shopkeeper at Wallace Station mention it and another instance, I heard the doctor in Valentine mention it as well all of this is before Strauss informs Arthur himself that Thomas had passed away.
I always had the questions: 1) How did Edith get the camp's location? 2) Why did the gang let her go after it's evident she discovered their hideout? The latter's location was supposed to be a zealously guarded secret and Edith had all the reasons to report such location to the authorities. 3) Once leaving, why did Edith did not report the location to the authorities? Being them the responsibles for her husband's assault, death and her and her son's desperate situation, she had more than enough motivation to report them, she would be the first one to want to see them in prison or hanging. Please don't tell me she did not know who they were, since they were the most wanted criminal gang in the USA, Arthur alone had a $5000 bounty on his head.
11:55 I think Charles played a major role in the way Arthur turned out, especially his sacrifice. Charles demonstrated that you can be a loyal friend but still do what’s right, and he rightly called Arthur out on it. Virtue isn’t always convenient and we often don’t understand it. Until you end up in a better place, despite it’s difficultly. In this case Arthur found a better place to camp. Thats certainly one way in which God will test the hearts of men, unbeknownst by them. I’m also proud of Arthur’s humility when speaking with the nun. Rockstar and Obsidian have the best story writing imo.
I think the duality of Arthur between high and low honor is fascinating. Both are just as much who he is as the either, but this projection of what's inside to the outside world (to us, the audience). The honor system isn't come cosmic alignment between good or evil. It's how the character feels about themselves. Ultimately, playing Good Cowboy or Bad Cowboy doesn't make a difference. But the expression of the characters' internal dialog gives us real insight into the characters. Jack's expressions are much more plain to see because there really is no future for him, the story is over. If you think the concept is interesting as I do please cover it because your analysis is very welcome in the community.
I'll make a case for Strauss and Arthur here. Ultimately, they were doing what Dutch wanted them to do, which was make money the only way they knew how. I think I would be tempted to treat the gang like a business and say Dutch, as the leader, should be held responsible for the actions of his underlings. The gangs actions should be ultimately done under his supervision, and him held responsible for consequences. Everyone else was just surviving the only way they knew how. As the gangs leader, he had control over how Strauss and Arthur collected the money, and I believe Strauss is a Red Herring, or a scapegoat. Not that Strauss and Arthur have no responsibility whatsoever, to a degree they had their own agency, I just think people go way too hard on Strauss, when Dutch signed off on all his actions, and would not have kept him around if he wasn't making money.
Has anyone noticed when Arthur picks up the cross of the floor and mrs downes is in the same shot u think it could be the first time he starts to feel bad about his choices that's what I got from it just a nice little detail I put together the other day during my 3rd play through (probably just me😂)
Thomas Downes was a nice man. He was in crippling debt and extreme financial troubles, yet he still had the heart to raise money for the poor. He can even be seen donating money to beggers. Thomas was doing everything he could to help his family. He knew his time was coming, so he decided to do as many nice things as possible, including making money for the poor. Rest In Peace Thomas Downes, you were one of the nicest characters in all of RDR2
Just started up an old save I was playing early last year. And I ran into Mrs Downes in Saint Denis. Could not for the life of me remember who she was. And this video pops up. Thank you!
While Arthur didn't kill him he definitely accelerated Thomas's demise. If you remember the first time you meet Thomas is when you go to Valentine with Uncle and the girls. He's building a charity house, which goes unfinished due to his death. That charity house theoretically could've fed his family for years after his death if he could have been left to finish it. Tuberculosis would've killed him within a few years but at least his family would have been taken care of.
Except Downes owed more money than his own house was worth between all the debt collectors he borrowed from, and if it’s for charity that it’s not like that house was gonna give him all sorts of cash. In case you’re unaware it can’t be called charity if you sell it for full price. Even if he did though, at best he would’ve paid back his debts but his family would still be destitute. The reality is Thomas Downes ruined his families lives with his choices.
Thomas could have died next day anyways either with his meeting with Arthur or without. Who would she blame? They already were broke af, so I didn’t blame Arthur to be honest. Just that woman decided to put all her emotions on Arthur.
I think it was good for the Downes that Arthur came into their lives since without the money he gave them in the last encounter, they wouldn't be able to get anywhere. Even if Arthur hadn't beaten Thomas, he still would've died from the TB, making his family have no money and thus sending them deeper into poverty.
Arthur expedited his death by beating him into a pulp, who knows how much time he had left, he could've had time to make more money and keep the house...he still would've died but maybe they could've kept the house and Edith wouldn't have had to turn to prostitution.
Arthur only caught TB cuz of the beating. He was in Downes face and that’s when Arthur got coughed on. So no Arthur wouldn’t of caught TB had he not beaten downes
You need to cover the fact of how Arthur could have been an amazing father. Like literally just how much the youngsters meant to him despite of him being a ruthless and honestly a cold killer but he’s a teddy bear once you get to know him. And I know you’re up for the task of him being a father or a father figure.
@@assbutt6969 he was but not to the full extent… you see he tells rains falls that he has a son but he didn’t had that interaction on a daily basis and plus he die so young that I don’t really count it. Now with Jack you can see how he is or with Lenny, Archie, hell even kirean the “o Driscoll”
I don’t think Arthur would have been as good a father as you think. Remember when he and Hosea were discussing Hosea’s past marriage on their hunting trip? Hosea tried it but in the end drifted back into the life. I think Arthur would have been the same. Maybe he would send money to the woman raising his child and be a “pop in dad” every now and then but I don’t think he would have stuck around and become a farmer. In the end that’s what he wanted for John because because he knew John could do it. But he hi self? No.
I think arthur would be as or just as good as john, john kinda neglected jack and abigail for a while if arthur settled down like john did, im sure they would both be good fathers@@alienlife7754
@@alienlife7754do remember that back then, a woman having a child out of wedlock was basically a social death sentence. Making sure she was taken care of while not being able to physically be there was pretty big of Arthur. If not for misplaced loyalty, he probably would’ve stuck around and took care of his family. His failure to do so ate at him
Arthur is no more responsible for Thomas Downs' fate than Thomas is responsible for Arthur's, they are both symptoms of wider issues in each others lives. For Thomas, Arthur is the embodiment of his desperation brought about by his failing health & finances. Turning to a loan shark to try and fix things in the short term which leads to Arthur shortening his life. For Arthur, Thomas is the embodiment of the consequences resulting from the lifestyle he has led for most of his life. While he may not have been actively aware of it Arthur's actions do have an affect and eventually these things catch up to you. This is shown literally when Arthur contracts TB from Thomas, something that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't collecting debts for Strauss. If I were to point a finger I'd point both fates to Strauss himself. Strauss targeted the Downes family specifically because they were destitute and had no alternative, Arthur himself tells Strauss how foolish it was to loan money to a family that had no means of paying it back. Meanwhile Strauss specifically instructs Arthur to not go gentle on Thomas because he 'doesn't like his sort' an act that would lead to Arthur's own downfall which Arthur comes to realize during his last days when he reflects on his life and the choices he has made.
Tropical conditions and humidity is the worst environment possible for that kind of illness. Before antibiotics people with consumption (TB) were advised to stay in places with clean dry air, a lot of sanitoriums where in the desert and in arid alpine environments. Living in the Bayou swamps for months, and then being shipwrecked and being stuck on a tropical island, and then Beaver Hollow which has constant rain accelerated his illness. People could and did live for years with TB provided they stayed in dry climates. Doc Holliday had TB for years before he died.
Solid point. Before the TB diagnosis, I assumed he looked sick because of some other disease from the island. Before he really looked fine. But what you wrote makes more sense.
Makes you wonder what would have happened if Arthur didn't beat Mr. Downes. Obviously he still would have died but would his family have been any better off? Perhaps, but maybe not, one could make the argument that had Arthur not done what he did and given them money they may have stayed poor and destitute. Im not suggesting what Arthur did was right but maybe it gave them a life they wouldn't have had otherwise.
They would definitely still be destitute because he already owed more than his house was worth aside from the debt to Strauss. More than that though is Downes was a grown man and made his own decisions. I think money lending is dirty work for sure but I have ZERO sympathy for those who borrow and can’t pay it back because they made a choice knowing full well the consequences (which everyone back then did) including beatings, debtors prison, losing what you own etc. I’ve spent my life in poverty but I’ve never borrowed money I couldn’t pay back no matter how tough things got because my poverty is NO ONE else’s responsibility.
@@IrishColin Human life is more important than money, Mr Downes made dumb decision with lending money but that does not mean he deserves dying. You should have zero sympathy to the people that lend money to desperate people and then cause psyhical harm to them when they cant pay back. Banks wont lend you money when you cant pay it back
Arthur accelerated the inevitable. As you said maybe that's the better way for them cause now rather than blaming God they could blame Arthur and keep their sanity. I'm so glad they made money in the end. Beautiful story overall and that's just a side story.
There are several answers to the title, as it is more nuanced than a broad strokes question. Is it's Arthur's fault that Thomas died? Sort of, with a stronger bias to yes. The beating surely accelerated the TB, Arthur's TB also accelerates when he takes beatings and other similar bad health situations (Like Colm's torture, Guarma as a whole, the ending). Thomas was going to die anyway but it would have taken longer and Arthur was particularly brutal to Thomas who he knew was poorly because he didn't like him. If had been more merciful or pulled a gun on him instead of beating him, Arthur would not have caught the TB. Is what happened to the Downes family Arthur's fault? No. It's Strauss' fault. He predates on people who won't be able to pay back properly and Arthur was basically just a sentient baseball bat that Strauss used to extort the money out of Downes. Strauss is probably the worst of the gang, including Rat Bell and Dutch the Plan Man.
Actually what happened to Downes and his family is Thomas’s fault. No one forced a grown man to take a loan he couldn’t repay on top of his other loans he couldn’t repay. How about some accountability here. I’ve said it in other comments but I think money lending is a dirty business but ultimately the choice to take a loan falls on the debtor, he was a grown man not a naive child, not someone mentally disabled, but a grown man. He knew the consequences of not repaying which he knew damn well he wouldn’t be able to repay. At what age do your choices become your fault?!?! Also don’t say I wouldn’t know because I’ve spent my life up until now in poverty and have never borrowed money I couldn’t repay no matter how bad things got because in the end your poverty is YOUR OWN responsibility and NO ONE else’s. I believe in helping people but that doesn’t mean it’s ok to borrow when you can’t repay essentially forcing the lender into being charity that they didn’t chose, that’s essentially just scamming someone out of money.
@@IrishColin I'm not going to comment on your personal life but I'm sorry you've had to live through it. Think the overall point is simplistic. Downes has some responsibility, but it plays into the greater point of the capitalist society pushing the money rules the world appraoch further west. You can't live without it, and Sharks circle those who need it because they're the prey.
Downes knew exactly what he was doing when he borrowed the money from Strauss. Arthur is in no way responsible for his death. Thomas would have died and his family would have wound up poor regardless of what Arthur did.
Think about it. If it wasn't Authur, it would probably be Micah who Strauss sent to retrieve the debt. And he would have absolutely robbed and killed the whole family.
I jist started the game and spend 46 hours into it. Though i believe that answer depends on how you played the game. I made sure to avoid killing innocent or even animals. Though i might have killed cops or hostile npc that could theoretically.
I love how that guy says "you couldn't kill no one" and then Arthur later beats the sh*t out of Micah about 1 min. before he dies of TB. Tough as nails to the bitter end.
It honestly all comes back to Dutch, there's a conversation between Arthur and Dutch where he convinces Arthur to help Strauss if you wait on the missions. This is also why I don't believe Dutch was ever a "good" outlaw, he knew what Strauss was doing was immoral at best but because it made HIM money he allowed it and even pushed for it.
Dutch (moreso than anyone else in the series) embodies the wild west that existed before "civilization" and modernization. Its the unstoppable march of progress that brings an end to it and the gang's way of life. What's left intentionally ambiguous was whether the ethics and values the gang lived by was ever real or always illusionary: did the end of their way of life bring about Dutch's fall from grace and his turn to villainy or did it just reveal Dutch for the villain he always was? The fact that it isn't clear and is left to the player to decide for themselves is part of the artistry of the series.
The lack of understanding how the body works, and the Arthur meat riding in the comments is wild. Arthur 100% accelerated Thomas Downes death, his body is already quite weak with his immune system trying to fight off one hell of an illness, fever, cold sweats, shivers, and now it suffers the trauma of being punched, kicked and thrown about like a ragdoll by an absolute unit of an outlaw (hardened and used to fighting) in his physical prime. Downes even has to pull himself up with the fence because he's so weak after the beating he can't even stand on his own. Did he make a stupid, desperate decision in taking the loan ? Yes. Did he deserve what he got ? Absolutely not. Arthur CHOSE to beat an already dying man, and that imo, is THE most cruel and despicable thing we see Arthur do during the game that is out of our control, he also wouldn't have contracted TB if he wasn't so eager to beat Downes.
Fair. But this is basically how loan sharks have always operated. They target people who are denied financing elsewhere, because lenders who only have legal means of getting their money back see them as too risky to lend to. Sharks have enforcers like this. So it’s probably not the first time Arthur has beaten a man up in search of payment. He had no idea Downes was essentially dying of TB. But it really comes down to organized crime being a nasty thing.
@@hornetguy9063 No I know all this, but I'm not talking about the ones we don't see in his past. The ones we do see, like Winton Holmes, Wrobel, the kid in Rhodes, but specifically Wrobel you can get away with simply intimidating him, you don't even have to take the gold ring if you already know about it and don't want to do that to him, so we know Arthur is capable of not beating them to a pulp. But with Downes we are forced to beat him, and in the cutscene it continues a bit, it's completely out of our control, it's all Arthur's own decision
In the end, Arthur does show the Downes family that he truly was sincerely sorry and deeply regrets for where he put the family. Both parties know and acknowledge that he can’t fix what he has done, but the Downes were at least able to see that there was indeed a change of heart in Arthur.
I have a thought after reading some comments. I think contracting TB is what saved Arthur mentally and morally. It might depend a bit on how you played him, but generally the story seems to try and show that Arthur is more ruthless up until that point of being sick and seeing the damage his past actions caused for others, if not only mentally, since I think the Downes's where already on this path even if Arthur never was involved. The interesting point I have though is that if Arthur never contracted TB, I think he would have remained more ruthless and unsympathetic to others, although while still knowing what's right, but also just not caring because of his own strength in self-preserving. I feel that strength kind of enables him to be willfully ignorant of his opportunities to do good, like when Charles needed to push him to not ignore the german family's plight by "playing evil" when Arthur in fact knows better. It makes me wonder if that healthy version of Arthur would have deterred Micah from poking and prodding him, which only happens because Micah notices Arthur's weakness of being sick. Micah might have been more of a suck up instead, while trying to "recruit" him to his thinking and style. Arthur's social status would have been even more feared and respected throughout many events, and he might even have stayed sided with Dutch in the end over helping John and the other "defecting" members. He'd maybe even make it to the events of rdr1 as a target, provided John would even survive with Arthur on the Dutch's side.
Okay, I have first hand knowledge of TB. I can tell you that you usually don't just contract it and start showing symptoms. You contract it and your body fights it, making you have it BUT you are asymptomatic. It's called latent TB. My husband and brothers in law contracted it from my father in law who, as the doctor said, likely contracted it years ago from someone who was active, and the stroke he had, triggered it. His body was weak and couldn't keep fighting it, causing him to go into active TB and start showing symptoms and becoming contagious. Latent TB is not contagious. My FIL, when he was in the midst of active TB, even a minor beating from a tiny girl like me (5'4" 125lbs) would have killed him. He's quite lucky we have modern medicine. One year of antibiotics later and he was cleared entirely. He had to do like six months of antibiotics before he wasn't even contagious anymore. So yes, Arthur did kill him. But I see what you mean that back then, he would likely die of it, and Arthur just sped it along. My question is what caused Arthur to go into active as fast as he did? I have to assume he was latent or would have been for a while, until the beating from the Odriscolls, combine that with all the stress from the gang, and his immune system probably wasnt up to par and it's why he went into active so quick. But you can take solace in the fact, likely everyone in that gang caught it from him, Micah included. Yes, poor Tilly, Mary Beth, etc. Whether or not they stayed latent through their lives is another question. Had dutch not taken the leap of faith, had John not killed Javier and Micah, and they likely would have died of TB.
@@aleNoyz91 I think you're thinking of smallpox. TB absolutely still exists and is still a problem in many parts of the world. Unless you're just joking around. Hard to tell. Either way, Google is your friend.
@aleACAB91 Oh, yes, it does. Tuberculosis is still around, and 1 million people die every year from it. We now have different kinds like DRTB. That stands for Drug Resistant Tuberculosis. This means medications won't touch this type of TB. Some research on your part might be a good idea
@@aleNoyz91 and yes, it absolutely does. I thought I had responded to you before about this, but it does. You may be thinking of smallpox which was labeled eradicated by the WHO in the 70s and by the 80s all routine vaccinations had stopped.
Arthur sped up the process, but Mr Downes would die anyway and his family would end up in the slums. The truth is all three of them are guilty - Arthur for being brutal, Strauss for being an agressive loan shark who will even target dead debtor;s family and Mr Downes for taking money to build fundation to get money for poor.
I think what makes Arthurs moments in Annesburg with the Downes family even more tear jerking is that when Arthur gets to Archie at the mine and Archie proclaims that Arthur killed his dad, Arthur just stays in silent agreement which turns into a subtle admition of guilt when faced with the foreman he just says he's gonna kill him too as if he's agreeing to Archies prior comment.
Saying that Arthur was responsible for Downes death is like shooting someone who is already fatally wounded. Perhaps Arthur shortened his time on this earth, but by how much? A few days? A few weeks? Maybe months? Typically, after symptoms manifest tuberculosis is fatal within 30 days to 3 years without some form of treatment. There were some forms of treatment, even in 1899, but most people couldn't afford to move somewhere warm/dry and relax. Just like we see Arthur continue to do his best for the gang as the sickness claims him, extended bed rest and relaxation just wasn't something the common person could afford. Which brings us back to Thomas Downes, he was out tending to his field, which is physical work. The area of the Downes ranch is just east of the Grizzlies, between Strawberry and Valentine. It can get pretty cold at night and during the winter, an environment that isn't great for TB patients. So realistically, at the point he's coughing when we meet him at his ranch, I would say he has at most a month left. We also don't know the exact timeframe from our beating of Thomas and Strauss telling us about his death. Possibly a couple of days to a week. At the end of the day, I don't believe Arthur was to blame for what happened to the Downes family following their first encounter. My grandfather once said that life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you deal with it. In the end, it was Edith's choice to become a prostitute and refuse to leave the region.
In part, yes, because he still took money off desperate people and assaulted a very ill man. Thomas Downes was trying his best, despite his illness, to provide for his family at a time when poor farmers had very few means of getting medical or financial help. Arthur isn't solely responsible, the society of the time was brutal for the sick and the poor, but he isn't completely innocent either.
Debts are debts and should be paid. Any attempt to avoid the debt is trying to take advantage of the people you owe the money to and is highly disrespectful. When others wouldn't take a chance on your, they gave you a chance.
Aggravated assault which in turn aggravated Downes tuberculosis, tuberculosis itself has progression almost exclusively tapered by immune system strength when taken into account alongside how ideal the current environment is for tuberculosis replication. Healing is one of the more taxing immune system processes lengthy and resources intensive already being compromised, even if not from the beating itself this beating especially from a low honor Arthur would be very difficult on his body that was already fighting tuberculosis.
If it wasn’t Arthur it could’ve been Charles. Or Micah. If Strauss hadn’t lent him money another loan shark he couldn’t pay back would have. Thomas Downes destroyed his own family
@@redfs7414 *But if you was Thomas Downes and you were just trying to feed your family in the 1800s where they barely had toilets you will beg to differ, they were desperate, The Vanderlinde gang where just a gang of Vicious outlaws just like the rest of them making lives harder for people than they already were...😂🤷*
No, actually not, she would've still ended up poor, plus her Husband knew what he was getting him and *HIS FAMILY* into, actually it's her Husbands fault, it was kind of Arhur to help, they/he knew the rules, and that's it.
That sounds like Dimitri's line of thinking. And still, it's Arthur's fault that Downes died as quickly as he did. Just because a car is gonna crash sometime, doesn't mean you're excused for crashing it.
@@channel45853 That's the thing he would've died anyways, probably not even long enough to rake anything of worth up, but as he said in the Video he didn't really smack his Lungs or so.
3:39 Here's the thing, the first time I played this mission, I only threatened Downes, I never beat him. When he didn't give up the money, I thought there might have been an alternate ending to the mission, so I reloaded and did the mission again, beating Downes severely, with the same mission ending. The player doesn't have to beat Downes at all to complete the mission, therefore, Thomas Downes' fate would still have been the same, he would've have died, they would've have lost the farm, and the mother and son would've been left destitute. The son blames Arthur because the son has no one else to blame, and it's easy to blame a heartless thug who only cares about money.
I feel like the Downes family situation wasn't supposed to be a direct comment on Arthur's wrongdoing, but rather a general collection of what Arthur has done wrong. While the Downes situation may not be entirely his fault, the interactions he has with them is supposed to be a symbol for every other awful thing Arthur has done. When Arthur helps them in the "Do Not Seek Absolution" he isn't looking for forgiveness or is not seeking absolution from them, but trying to put right in the world where he has done wrong, with the Downes being the people plaguing his mind due to the punishment he receives from his actions towards them. The Downes are a symbol for all the other people he has hurt.
0:03 Before watching the video I would have to say by the time Arthur got to them it was already too late because Thomas fell for Strauss manipulation’s I mean, if you think about it Strauss could have sent John or Micah and the outcome would be the same
If you don't think the attack did anything horrible to Downes, then you do not understand much about a sickness like TB and the strain it puts on the body. Cause when a person is at a late stage of TB like Downes was, the body isn't able to recuperate. It's unable to heal from the wounds. The body is in a tired state, where moving around is a challenge on patients. That's why when you see a person who is sick without the ability to walk or get out of bed, that's the result of a debilitating illness, which is what TB is. To say that it only affects the lungs, you don't know anything about the body, or even tuberculosis, for that matter. I think it's important for you to research this horrific illness before saying anything like that.
Thomas was already a dead man walking at that point. Arthur killed him but honestly it was probably for the best that High Honor Arthur tried to make it right, because without him giving the Downes some money before he died (giving them a chance to leave and start new lives) then Mrs. Downes would probably continued working as a prostitute and Archie would get worked to death in the mines.
I've always interpreted the Downes' family situation as Thomas being the fulcrum of not only their moral compasses but also the reason they were able to live soundly. The two would rather blame Arthur for their husband/father's demise than own up to their shortcomings as people. Archie always came off as a lackadaisical "woe is me" kind of person that was living off his family's land, and Edith felt like she needed her husband's guidance to a more just life. I think it's a fairly accurate representation on how some mourn the loss of loved ones in real life, some fall victim to the grief and want to blame others for what's happened. Just another subplot in the game that I really enjoyed playing through.
Right! So many people take no accountability for themselves and they then project that into how they feel for Downes and act like he was some poor victim instead of what he really was, someone who kept borrowing money despite how it’d destroy his families lives all while knowing he would die before he could ever come close to paying it all off this leaving his debt to his wife and son. He was a big boy and made his choice to borrow money knowing what a loan entailed, Strauss didn’t put a gun to his head and force him to borrow anything. I can’t stand how many people have no sense of accountability so your comment was nice to see.
arthur isn't at fault because of what he did (because he did what he was told to as you said) but because how he did it, arthur was a ruthless killer up to that point and he saw the gang before anything or anyone else, him beating mr. downs made his sickness worsen in a higher rate thus putting him into the ground much sooner but in actuality in this case everyone was at fault, arthur for choosing to beat a sick man for a few bucks, the downs family for taking the loan despite knowing they won't be financially stable enough to oay it back, and ofc strauss for loan sharking desperate people knowing well they won't be able to pay
You really don't know that it's not morally or legally right to beat a sick and dying man who is desperately trying to provide for his wife and son? Doesn't matter if the gang loaned him money, it's still an evil thing to do. Yes it is Arthur's fault, and Strauss, and the gang and their loansharking practices. Arthur knows this, that's why he feels guilty about it in the later chapters.
I started a new game last week and noticed something. Arthur coughs at the end of the robbery mission with Javier, as Javier is leaving and he's in the barn. this happens regardless of whether Arthur has gone after Downes yet or not, because I chose to put that off as long as I possibly could so Arthur would be healthy for as long as possible during the game. we all know there's no saving him, but that doesn't mean we can't put it off just a wee bit longer. and while this could have been a throwaway thing on that mission, I don't think it was. Arthur doesn't start coughing again until the disease picks up, and I didn't notice anyone else doing it without some aggravating factor like a cloud of dust. Javier's mission doesn't show up until after Arthur has the bar fight that spills into the street. the one Downes intervenes in. and I think THAT is when Arthur got it. the thing with TB, the reason my skin crawled whenever Arthur got too close to anyone in the game, is TB is airborne. just the act of coughing or singing or whatever is enough to spread it. and Downes coughs in Arthur's face when he intervenes in that fight. I think Arthur was doomed after that fight, before he went to confront Downes at all.
I know this might sound stupid but I heard a theory that says that Jamie is not actually Mary Linton’s brother but he’s hers and Arthur’s son. However since her father despises Arthur’s lifestyle and the fact that he’s an outlaw, he raised as his own instead of grandchild.
As much as I would like to agree with you Mary and Arthur would have to have been very young in order for Jamie to be their son because Jamie I think is 20 when you meet him in the game and I don't know how old Arthur is I just know he's in his late 30s and Mary ia at least 41
I hate how so many people people just defend Arthur for no matter what. Like seriously, these people don't understand the story at all. Arthur himself knows he isn't a good person. At the end he just fixed what he could
I think the Downes were lucky Arthur agreed to visit them. Imagine what would have happened if he refused and Strauss would have sent Micah Bell instead.
I hope Arthur could've let go Thomas, the Downes would've probably end being there at Annesbourg. Being able to let go Thomas not only Arthur wouldn't get Tuberculosis, this would surely mean either Micah is even more of a rat and would try to take Arthur out in another way, because I'm sure Micah would have betrayed the Van Der Linde anyways, or Arthur would've taken Micah down quite easily. For the Downes maybe Arthur could've helped them with the mines and get some information in a possible "I have a plan" from Dutch and attack the mines, obviously failing because of the intervention of the Pinkertons.
Thomas Downes doomed his family, not Arthur. Downes could have gotten a loan from any other loan shark and it would have had the same outcome. I've known people who are like Downes, so charitable that they put themselves and their family into extreme poverty. I had an Evangelical Christian roommate years ago, she gave so much money to charities and her church that she only had $40 for food every month. I told her that she can't help others if she can't help herself. She didn't listen to me or her family that was telling her the same thing and things didn't turn out well for her.
Actually I don’t care about the Downes family any more than I would care about any other npc in red dead. We mass murdered entire towns as Arthur and beat thousands of people. We are a piece of shit and not better than Micah in this regard. The fate of the Downes family is the same fate that countless other families had in this universe. I don’t like helping them in Chapter 6. I still appreciate the story of Arthur and how he redeems himself but it isn’t actually that logical. Fans tend to romanticize the story but if we look at it cold it doesn’t really make that much sense
the Downes took out too many loans and relied on a known loan shark.. TB was not curable at the time. Mrs. Downes had some other options, she could have become a seamstress, worked at a factory, a nanny, a housemaid, anything. She chose that path. they are responsible for their own downfall. What happened to the Downes family is not completely on Arthur's shoulders. Saying as much implies that is Arthur had never visited them they would financially stable family. Mr. Downes even said they own more than the farm is worth. That implies that they owe multiple people.
arthur paid the ultimate price for what he did to the family, he lost his life which he may have been fit enough to avoid, and his gang falling apart may have not been as much of a mess if he was still fit, I reckon the illness would have given micah leverage when whispering into dutch's ear
Here's a hot take: Strauss is worse than Micah, Micah is an up front scum bag but at least he gets his hands dirty, Strauss sends others to do his dirty work. Arthur was being an enforcer, it's the same concept as people who borrow money from the Mob you know what you're getting into best to stay away from loan sharks. How much Arthur did or did not worsen his condition is unknown but at the end of the day Thomas Downes is responsible for that entire exchange.
As a person? Definitely not. Yes, what Strauss was doing was wrong 100%, but at least he was loyal to the gang. Micah was there only to help himself, and all he did was cause trouble. Strauss at the very least expressed concern for others, even Arthur himself. Plus, Strauss didn't tell the Pinkertons anything that he knew, and he was tortured to death. This happens even if Arthur throws Strauss out of the camp, showing that he held no disdain for them even after they removed him.
@@stormichow5325 strauss was loyal only because it benefited him, if he could make more somewhere else, he would betray the gang in a heartbeat... such is the nature of his kind...
@@Ernesto-ir8dsthey literally say in the epilogue how Strauss was picked up by the Pinkertons and died in the custody, never saying a word about the gang.
Thomas could have lived another 5=10 years if not for the beating Arthur gave him. Remember that Arthur's disease was accelerated due to his capture and torture by Colm and the shipwreck. Without those events, he still would have been sick, but he would've lived longer before the illness killed him.
@@Angeloading Nobody said it did, the question was , was it Arthur's fault that the family went broke, and no, it wasnt his fault, the family was already in debt with the bank before Strauss lent them money and Downes was already dying.
Honestly? I'm glad the game makes it clear that forgiveness, revenge, and Redemption are all choices. Everyone has those choices and their reasons for it.
Mr. Downes, despite his charity and good intentions, knew he was heading into his grave soon, and what does he decide to leave behind to his family? a debt that could have at best left his family destitute, and at worst, for all he knew regarding one of the most dangerous gangs, potentially murdered if someone more heartless got involved. imagine, for a minute, what would have happened if he borrowed money from a more brutal gang that would murder his family, or worse, if Micah was sent to deal with the debt. hell, even a bank would be more heartless than chapter 6 Arthur. and if Arthur didn't come along and give them money, his wife would resort to prostitution indefinitely, and his son would be doomed into being worked to death in the mines.
'Course not. It's the old enemy, "time" and "progress". Strauss found a customer. The customer chose to go for the loan. Arthur was only there to ask for the money. I dunno if a time-limit was ever set, or if Strauss just sent them the day after or not, but if there was any decent amount of time it's Thomas's fault.
That's why Strauss when he was caught didn't say a dagum thing, in the end he blamed himself for what happened to Arthur because he's the one who sent him to collect the money from the guy.
You know, i never made the connection between the end slide and it being Archie and Edith, just assumed it was the Gray and braithwaite kids for some reason.
it really wasn't Arthur's fault, he may have "helped" the family get to rock bottom, but he wasn't the one who didn't think about asking money from a random stranger, he wasn't the family's failed breadwinner and he wasn't the one who put the family into debt, maybe his beating ultimately sped up Thomas' death, but everything else was abound one way or another, including Thomas' death ANYWAYS. it's true what the video says, it's just easier to give misfortune and a dead man's failures a form in Arthur... and I don't even know if I blame Leopold either, he was a loan shark, so he loaned, then he had to collect, "render unto Caesar" and all that, though he really should've chosen his clients better, in all fairness
no i don't think its arthurs fault. arthur didn't make thomas downes get tb. arthur didn't give them money troubles. if arthur didn't go to collect the money strauss would have sent someone else. i hate how edith blames arthur for everything. but i think it's her way of finding someone to blame for her unfortunate set of circumstances. of course she wouldn't blame her loving husband. so it's easy to blame the money collector. it's a sad thing that happened to that family. but if anyone is to blame it's her husband for making poor money decisions.
In my opinion Arthur might have accelerated Downs' journey to the grave but ultimately the result would have been the same. The family was already in financial troubles and tuberculosis would have killed him at some point down the road.
A quick google search reveals that a TB infection would be fatal within five years.
And they accelerated Arthur into the grave as well
Yeah kinda like how the stress put on Arthur caused his TB to accelerate
It's not entirely Arthur's fault, what he pretty much did was speed up the process of driving the Downes into poverty. Thomas Downes was the one who willingly borrowed money from Strauss, so agreed to the terms of paying it back which he failed to comply with. Also, they were on the way to poverty whether Arthur was involved or not, since Thomas was dying of TB and that would have definitely put a strain on their finances.
Also, burrowing money to support your charity instead of your family wasn´t the smartest move either
Doesn’t justify Arthur whatsoever
@@dogeshow2651don’t ask for money when you can’t pay it back when it’s time to pay up 😂
He already owed more on the house than it was worth meaning he was already in debt and Strauss is not the only loan shark tbh if it hadn’t been him it would have been someone else. The other loan sharks might not have physically beat Downes so he would have likely had a more dignified death but the wife having to sell herself and the son having to work in coal mines was going to happen whether or not he even took a loan, much less if he had taken it from someone other than Strauss.
The amount of money Arthur or anyone else would have had to give him to keep his wife and child afloat would have been crazy. Yes, Arthur can afford it but most people could not. It was inevitable.
@@dogeshow2651no but it answers was everything Arthur’s fault. No. Beating him was Arthur’s fault, everything else was going to happen. Even if Arthur didn’t come to collect the debt at all, they were still in debt even then.
Interesting thing is that you can do the mission without laying a hand on Downes. You can just choose the intimidate option and Arthur won't hit him. He'll throw him to the ground in the cutscene, but no punches will be thrown.
Which is kinda pointless and annoying since Arthur still gets TB
That’s no fun!!
Let’s be honest though on our first play through almost 99% of us picked to beat him up. It’s canonically how the story is meant to unfold I believe.
@@Dr.Gainzzz Like no! When I played the game firts time than mutiple times my Arthus allways just threaten never hurts if I can choose not to. It is more fun that Arthur want to be and is a good man but hist family don't let him be.
But you still get infected with TB and the family still blames you for their downfall.
Arthur: stop lending money to desperate people who cant pay
Strauss: rich people dont need my help, but my work keeps us fed
He says after I've caught the third meal for the day
A minor easter egg, that connects RDR2 and GTA V: the golf club in GTA V were called by the name of Edith Downes. A small detail that perfectly connects and finishes this story
wrong
@@plebisMaximus California was mentioned multiple times in the story and even some animals have California in their name so its canon in rdr2
@@titanusgodzillaa4274 I'm a moron with a horrible memory, you are correct. Disregard previous comments.
@@plebisMaximusbased
9:58 she knows who Arthur is she even says “oh no, not you” she’s scared Arthur will hurt her family further
Two things:
1. Edith actually comes to Horseshoe Overlook to confront Strauss after Thomas dies, informing him that Thomas had died and even pays off some of the debt.
2: some NPCs around Valentine will elude to Thomas’ passing. I heard the shopkeeper at Wallace Station mention it and another instance, I heard the doctor in Valentine mention it as well all of this is before Strauss informs Arthur himself that Thomas had passed away.
man edith is a better tracker than the pinkertons
I never knew that, rdr2 has sm hidden details man
I always had the questions:
1) How did Edith get the camp's location?
2) Why did the gang let her go after it's evident she discovered their hideout? The latter's location was supposed to be a zealously guarded secret and Edith had all the reasons to report such location to the authorities.
3) Once leaving, why did Edith did not report the location to the authorities? Being them the responsibles for her husband's assault, death and her and her son's desperate situation, she had more than enough motivation to report them, she would be the first one to want to see them in prison or hanging. Please don't tell me she did not know who they were, since they were the most wanted criminal gang in the USA, Arthur alone had a $5000 bounty on his head.
@@juhaeerjayran4246that’s hilarious. A ranchers widow managed to find the van der lin gang before the pinkertons
@@joshmanis9860 idk edith maybe the goat when it comes to tracking
11:55 I think Charles played a major role in the way Arthur turned out, especially his sacrifice. Charles demonstrated that you can be a loyal friend but still do what’s right, and he rightly called Arthur out on it. Virtue isn’t always convenient and we often don’t understand it. Until you end up in a better place, despite it’s difficultly. In this case Arthur found a better place to camp. Thats certainly one way in which God will test the hearts of men, unbeknownst by them. I’m also proud of Arthur’s humility when speaking with the nun. Rockstar and Obsidian have the best story writing imo.
I've played computer games since 1983.
This one is the best game I ever played.
It must be crazy seeing how much games have evolved
@@siyacer From the days of Asteroids and Adventure? Yes. My kids don't understand how I'm fascinated with how well done these games are.
You must be a very, very expert in video games and know everything about games
Video games amazing talent
@@الطابق30 I'm better at proper grammar. Something, you should try.
Damn bro that is amazing you saw the evolution of gaming and gaming consoles happen right before your eyes
I think the duality of Arthur between high and low honor is fascinating. Both are just as much who he is as the either, but this projection of what's inside to the outside world (to us, the audience). The honor system isn't come cosmic alignment between good or evil. It's how the character feels about themselves. Ultimately, playing Good Cowboy or Bad Cowboy doesn't make a difference. But the expression of the characters' internal dialog gives us real insight into the characters. Jack's expressions are much more plain to see because there really is no future for him, the story is over. If you think the concept is interesting as I do please cover it because your analysis is very welcome in the community.
I'll make a case for Strauss and Arthur here. Ultimately, they were doing what Dutch wanted them to do, which was make money the only way they knew how. I think I would be tempted to treat the gang like a business and say Dutch, as the leader, should be held responsible for the actions of his underlings. The gangs actions should be ultimately done under his supervision, and him held responsible for consequences. Everyone else was just surviving the only way they knew how. As the gangs leader, he had control over how Strauss and Arthur collected the money, and I believe Strauss is a Red Herring, or a scapegoat.
Not that Strauss and Arthur have no responsibility whatsoever, to a degree they had their own agency, I just think people go way too hard on Strauss, when Dutch signed off on all his actions, and would not have kept him around if he wasn't making money.
Has anyone noticed when Arthur picks up the cross of the floor and mrs downes is in the same shot u think it could be the first time he starts to feel bad about his choices that's what I got from it just a nice little detail I put together the other day during my 3rd play through (probably just me😂)
Thomas Downes was a nice man. He was in crippling debt and extreme financial troubles, yet he still had the heart to raise money for the poor. He can even be seen donating money to beggers.
Thomas was doing everything he could to help his family. He knew his time was coming, so he decided to do as many nice things as possible, including making money for the poor.
Rest In Peace Thomas Downes, you were one of the nicest characters in all of RDR2
Just started up an old save I was playing early last year. And I ran into Mrs Downes in Saint Denis. Could not for the life of me remember who she was. And this video pops up. Thank you!
I did catch this interaction of her in camp this last play through. I slowed down for awhile and caught a lot more conversations I’ve always missed.
While Arthur didn't kill him he definitely accelerated Thomas's demise. If you remember the first time you meet Thomas is when you go to Valentine with Uncle and the girls. He's building a charity house, which goes unfinished due to his death. That charity house theoretically could've fed his family for years after his death if he could have been left to finish it. Tuberculosis would've killed him within a few years but at least his family would have been taken care of.
Is that house finished in the epilogue?
@andrewf9423 no it never gets done. Or rather it might be built but it's repurposed for something else.
Except Downes owed more money than his own house was worth between all the debt collectors he borrowed from, and if it’s for charity that it’s not like that house was gonna give him all sorts of cash. In case you’re unaware it can’t be called charity if you sell it for full price. Even if he did though, at best he would’ve paid back his debts but his family would still be destitute. The reality is Thomas Downes ruined his families lives with his choices.
@JohnMarston1911s it was repurposed as something else
Thomas could have died next day anyways either with his meeting with Arthur or without. Who would she blame? They already were broke af, so I didn’t blame Arthur to be honest. Just that woman decided to put all her emotions on Arthur.
I think it was good for the Downes that Arthur came into their lives since without the money he gave them in the last encounter, they wouldn't be able to get anywhere. Even if Arthur hadn't beaten Thomas, he still would've died from the TB, making his family have no money and thus sending them deeper into poverty.
Arthur expedited his death by beating him into a pulp, who knows how much time he had left, he could've had time to make more money and keep the house...he still would've died but maybe they could've kept the house and Edith wouldn't have had to turn to prostitution.
Arthur only caught TB cuz of the beating. He was in Downes face and that’s when Arthur got coughed on. So no Arthur wouldn’t of caught TB had he not beaten downes
I think he meant thomas wouldve died from the TB regardless if Arthur beat him
@@sociopathicsquirrel3989 exactly
I'm fairly sure the Downes family even ends up wealthy by the epilogue, because of arthurs money giving them a new opportunity.
You need to cover the fact of how Arthur could have been an amazing father. Like literally just how much the youngsters meant to him despite of him being a ruthless and honestly a cold killer but he’s a teddy bear once you get to know him. And I know you’re up for the task of him being a father or a father figure.
he was a father
@@assbutt6969 he was but not to the full extent… you see he tells rains falls that he has a son but he didn’t had that interaction on a daily basis and plus he die so young that I don’t really count it. Now with Jack you can see how he is or with Lenny, Archie, hell even kirean the “o Driscoll”
I don’t think Arthur would have been as good a father as you think. Remember when he and Hosea were discussing Hosea’s past marriage on their hunting trip? Hosea tried it but in the end drifted back into the life. I think Arthur would have been the same. Maybe he would send money to the woman raising his child and be a “pop in dad” every now and then but I don’t think he would have stuck around and become a farmer. In the end that’s what he wanted for John because because he knew John could do it. But he hi self? No.
I think arthur would be as or just as good as john, john kinda neglected jack and abigail for a while if arthur settled down like john did, im sure they would both be good fathers@@alienlife7754
@@alienlife7754do remember that back then, a woman having a child out of wedlock was basically a social death sentence. Making sure she was taken care of while not being able to physically be there was pretty big of Arthur. If not for misplaced loyalty, he probably would’ve stuck around and took care of his family. His failure to do so ate at him
Arthur is no more responsible for Thomas Downs' fate than Thomas is responsible for Arthur's, they are both symptoms of wider issues in each others lives.
For Thomas, Arthur is the embodiment of his desperation brought about by his failing health & finances. Turning to a loan shark to try and fix things in the short term which leads to Arthur shortening his life.
For Arthur, Thomas is the embodiment of the consequences resulting from the lifestyle he has led for most of his life. While he may not have been actively aware of it Arthur's actions do have an affect and eventually these things catch up to you. This is shown literally when Arthur contracts TB from Thomas, something that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't collecting debts for Strauss.
If I were to point a finger I'd point both fates to Strauss himself. Strauss targeted the Downes family specifically because they were destitute and had no alternative, Arthur himself tells Strauss how foolish it was to loan money to a family that had no means of paying it back. Meanwhile Strauss specifically instructs Arthur to not go gentle on Thomas because he 'doesn't like his sort' an act that would lead to Arthur's own downfall which Arthur comes to realize during his last days when he reflects on his life and the choices he has made.
i think guarma is the thing that made the tuberculosis truly come out in arthur, he was really fine before that
Tropical conditions and humidity is the worst environment possible for that kind of illness.
Before antibiotics people with consumption (TB) were advised to stay in places with clean dry air, a lot of sanitoriums where in the desert and in arid alpine environments.
Living in the Bayou swamps for months, and then being shipwrecked and being stuck on a tropical island, and then Beaver Hollow which has constant rain accelerated his illness.
People could and did live for years with TB provided they stayed in dry climates.
Doc Holliday had TB for years before he died.
Solid point. Before the TB diagnosis, I assumed he looked sick because of some other disease from the island. Before he really looked fine. But what you wrote makes more sense.
I am simply amazed about the level of detail Rockstar put in this story. And also about your effort to uncover and explain allof this. Thank you!
Makes you wonder what would have happened if Arthur didn't beat Mr. Downes. Obviously he still would have died but would his family have been any better off? Perhaps, but maybe not, one could make the argument that had Arthur not done what he did and given them money they may have stayed poor and destitute.
Im not suggesting what Arthur did was right but maybe it gave them a life they wouldn't have had otherwise.
They would definitely still be destitute because he already owed more than his house was worth aside from the debt to Strauss. More than that though is Downes was a grown man and made his own decisions. I think money lending is dirty work for sure but I have ZERO sympathy for those who borrow and can’t pay it back because they made a choice knowing full well the consequences (which everyone back then did) including beatings, debtors prison, losing what you own etc. I’ve spent my life in poverty but I’ve never borrowed money I couldn’t pay back no matter how tough things got because my poverty is NO ONE else’s responsibility.
@@IrishColin Human life is more important than money, Mr Downes made dumb decision with lending money but that does not mean he deserves dying. You should have zero sympathy to the people that lend money to desperate people and then cause psyhical harm to them when they cant pay back. Banks wont lend you money when you cant pay it back
Arthur accelerated the inevitable. As you said maybe that's the better way for them cause now rather than blaming God they could blame Arthur and keep their sanity. I'm so glad they made money in the end. Beautiful story overall and that's just a side story.
There are several answers to the title, as it is more nuanced than a broad strokes question. Is it's Arthur's fault that Thomas died? Sort of, with a stronger bias to yes. The beating surely accelerated the TB, Arthur's TB also accelerates when he takes beatings and other similar bad health situations (Like Colm's torture, Guarma as a whole, the ending). Thomas was going to die anyway but it would have taken longer and Arthur was particularly brutal to Thomas who he knew was poorly because he didn't like him. If had been more merciful or pulled a gun on him instead of beating him, Arthur would not have caught the TB.
Is what happened to the Downes family Arthur's fault? No. It's Strauss' fault. He predates on people who won't be able to pay back properly and Arthur was basically just a sentient baseball bat that Strauss used to extort the money out of Downes. Strauss is probably the worst of the gang, including Rat Bell and Dutch the Plan Man.
Actually what happened to Downes and his family is Thomas’s fault. No one forced a grown man to take a loan he couldn’t repay on top of his other loans he couldn’t repay. How about some accountability here. I’ve said it in other comments but I think money lending is a dirty business but ultimately the choice to take a loan falls on the debtor, he was a grown man not a naive child, not someone mentally disabled, but a grown man. He knew the consequences of not repaying which he knew damn well he wouldn’t be able to repay. At what age do your choices become your fault?!?! Also don’t say I wouldn’t know because I’ve spent my life up until now in poverty and have never borrowed money I couldn’t repay no matter how bad things got because in the end your poverty is YOUR OWN responsibility and NO ONE else’s. I believe in helping people but that doesn’t mean it’s ok to borrow when you can’t repay essentially forcing the lender into being charity that they didn’t chose, that’s essentially just scamming someone out of money.
@@IrishColin I'm not going to comment on your personal life but I'm sorry you've had to live through it. Think the overall point is simplistic. Downes has some responsibility, but it plays into the greater point of the capitalist society pushing the money rules the world appraoch further west. You can't live without it, and Sharks circle those who need it because they're the prey.
Downes knew exactly what he was doing when he borrowed the money from Strauss. Arthur is in no way responsible for his death. Thomas would have died and his family would have wound up poor regardless of what Arthur did.
Think about it. If it wasn't Authur, it would probably be Micah who Strauss sent to retrieve the debt. And he would have absolutely robbed and killed the whole family.
How many other families have suffered a similar faith after their father or husband or brother or son was gunned down by Arthur's own hand?
Arthur Morgan clears
You can’t change Arthur Stan’s minds
I jist started the game and spend 46 hours into it. Though i believe that answer depends on how you played the game. I made sure to avoid killing innocent or even animals. Though i might have killed cops or hostile npc that could theoretically.
Mrs Downes and Archie probably reminded Arthur of his own son and his kids mum
I love how that guy says "you couldn't kill no one" and then Arthur later beats the sh*t out of Micah about 1 min. before he dies of TB. Tough as nails to the bitter end.
It honestly all comes back to Dutch, there's a conversation between Arthur and Dutch where he convinces Arthur to help Strauss if you wait on the missions. This is also why I don't believe Dutch was ever a "good" outlaw, he knew what Strauss was doing was immoral at best but because it made HIM money he allowed it and even pushed for it.
Exactly
Dutch (moreso than anyone else in the series) embodies the wild west that existed before "civilization" and modernization. Its the unstoppable march of progress that brings an end to it and the gang's way of life.
What's left intentionally ambiguous was whether the ethics and values the gang lived by was ever real or always illusionary: did the end of their way of life bring about Dutch's fall from grace and his turn to villainy or did it just reveal Dutch for the villain he always was? The fact that it isn't clear and is left to the player to decide for themselves is part of the artistry of the series.
The lack of understanding how the body works, and the Arthur meat riding in the comments is wild.
Arthur 100% accelerated Thomas Downes death, his body is already quite weak with his immune system trying to fight off one hell of an illness, fever, cold sweats, shivers, and now it suffers the trauma of being punched, kicked and thrown about like a ragdoll by an absolute unit of an outlaw (hardened and used to fighting) in his physical prime. Downes even has to pull himself up with the fence because he's so weak after the beating he can't even stand on his own.
Did he make a stupid, desperate decision in taking the loan ? Yes. Did he deserve what he got ? Absolutely not.
Arthur CHOSE to beat an already dying man, and that imo, is THE most cruel and despicable thing we see Arthur do during the game that is out of our control, he also wouldn't have contracted TB if he wasn't so eager to beat Downes.
Fair. But this is basically how loan sharks have always operated. They target people who are denied financing elsewhere, because lenders who only have legal means of getting their money back see them as too risky to lend to. Sharks have enforcers like this.
So it’s probably not the first time Arthur has beaten a man up in search of payment. He had no idea Downes was essentially dying of TB. But it really comes down to organized crime being a nasty thing.
Dick riding or not, you still sound like you're taking this wayyy too serious/personal yourself.
@@hornetguy9063 No I know all this, but I'm not talking about the ones we don't see in his past.
The ones we do see, like Winton Holmes, Wrobel, the kid in Rhodes, but specifically Wrobel you can get away with simply intimidating him, you don't even have to take the gold ring if you already know about it and don't want to do that to him, so we know Arthur is capable of not beating them to a pulp.
But with Downes we are forced to beat him, and in the cutscene it continues a bit, it's completely out of our control, it's all Arthur's own decision
You are right, the same thing Micah did to Arthur.
I think a lot of people underestimate how damaging a hard punch or kick can be.
I am loving these analysis videos. Keep up the good work my man!😁
In the end, Arthur does show the Downes family that he truly was sincerely sorry and deeply regrets for where he put the family. Both parties know and acknowledge that he can’t fix what he has done, but the Downes were at least able to see that there was indeed a change of heart in Arthur.
Woah, I never noticed Thomas was there at the fist fight
I have a thought after reading some comments. I think contracting TB is what saved Arthur mentally and morally. It might depend a bit on how you played him, but generally the story seems to try and show that Arthur is more ruthless up until that point of being sick and seeing the damage his past actions caused for others, if not only mentally, since I think the Downes's where already on this path even if Arthur never was involved.
The interesting point I have though is that if Arthur never contracted TB, I think he would have remained more ruthless and unsympathetic to others, although while still knowing what's right, but also just not caring because of his own strength in self-preserving. I feel that strength kind of enables him to be willfully ignorant of his opportunities to do good, like when Charles needed to push him to not ignore the german family's plight by "playing evil" when Arthur in fact knows better. It makes me wonder if that healthy version of Arthur would have deterred Micah from poking and prodding him, which only happens because Micah notices Arthur's weakness of being sick. Micah might have been more of a suck up instead, while trying to "recruit" him to his thinking and style. Arthur's social status would have been even more feared and respected throughout many events, and he might even have stayed sided with Dutch in the end over helping John and the other "defecting" members. He'd maybe even make it to the events of rdr1 as a target, provided John would even survive with Arthur on the Dutch's side.
I think the canon may be: play low honor, get TB, then play high honor to redeem him.
14:00 - You couldn't have worded that ANY WORSE
14:36 you know a game and character is written well when you start to tear up just thinking about Arthur
Imagine arthur getting salvia into the stew and everybody died of tb
Okay, I have first hand knowledge of TB. I can tell you that you usually don't just contract it and start showing symptoms. You contract it and your body fights it, making you have it BUT you are asymptomatic. It's called latent TB. My husband and brothers in law contracted it from my father in law who, as the doctor said, likely contracted it years ago from someone who was active, and the stroke he had, triggered it. His body was weak and couldn't keep fighting it, causing him to go into active TB and start showing symptoms and becoming contagious.
Latent TB is not contagious.
My FIL, when he was in the midst of active TB, even a minor beating from a tiny girl like me (5'4" 125lbs) would have killed him. He's quite lucky we have modern medicine. One year of antibiotics later and he was cleared entirely. He had to do like six months of antibiotics before he wasn't even contagious anymore.
So yes, Arthur did kill him. But I see what you mean that back then, he would likely die of it, and Arthur just sped it along.
My question is what caused Arthur to go into active as fast as he did?
I have to assume he was latent or would have been for a while, until the beating from the Odriscolls, combine that with all the stress from the gang, and his immune system probably wasnt up to par and it's why he went into active so quick.
But you can take solace in the fact, likely everyone in that gang caught it from him, Micah included. Yes, poor Tilly, Mary Beth, etc.
Whether or not they stayed latent through their lives is another question.
Had dutch not taken the leap of faith, had John not killed Javier and Micah, and they likely would have died of TB.
TB doesnt exist anymore
@@aleNoyz91 I think you're thinking of smallpox. TB absolutely still exists and is still a problem in many parts of the world.
Unless you're just joking around.
Hard to tell.
Either way, Google is your friend.
@aleACAB91 Oh, yes, it does. Tuberculosis is still around, and 1 million people die every year from it. We now have different kinds like DRTB. That stands for Drug Resistant Tuberculosis. This means medications won't touch this type of TB. Some research on your part might be a good idea
Also, isn't the theory that Abigail died of TB?
@@aleNoyz91 and yes, it absolutely does. I thought I had responded to you before about this, but it does. You may be thinking of smallpox which was labeled eradicated by the WHO in the 70s and by the 80s all routine vaccinations had stopped.
Arthur sped up the process, but Mr Downes would die anyway and his family would end up in the slums. The truth is all three of them are guilty - Arthur for being brutal, Strauss for being an agressive loan shark who will even target dead debtor;s family and Mr Downes for taking money to build fundation to get money for poor.
I think what makes Arthurs moments in Annesburg with the Downes family even more tear jerking is that when Arthur gets to Archie at the mine and Archie proclaims that Arthur killed his dad, Arthur just stays in silent agreement which turns into a subtle admition of guilt when faced with the foreman he just says he's gonna kill him too as if he's agreeing to Archies prior comment.
Nobody forced Thomas to borrow the money.
hahhahaha :D
@@elegrin5170 Why are you laughing?
I believe Strauss knew he had TB
Saying that Arthur was responsible for Downes death is like shooting someone who is already fatally wounded. Perhaps Arthur shortened his time on this earth, but by how much? A few days? A few weeks? Maybe months?
Typically, after symptoms manifest tuberculosis is fatal within 30 days to 3 years without some form of treatment. There were some forms of treatment, even in 1899, but most people couldn't afford to move somewhere warm/dry and relax. Just like we see Arthur continue to do his best for the gang as the sickness claims him, extended bed rest and relaxation just wasn't something the common person could afford. Which brings us back to Thomas Downes, he was out tending to his field, which is physical work. The area of the Downes ranch is just east of the Grizzlies, between Strawberry and Valentine. It can get pretty cold at night and during the winter, an environment that isn't great for TB patients.
So realistically, at the point he's coughing when we meet him at his ranch, I would say he has at most a month left. We also don't know the exact timeframe from our beating of Thomas and Strauss telling us about his death. Possibly a couple of days to a week.
At the end of the day, I don't believe Arthur was to blame for what happened to the Downes family following their first encounter. My grandfather once said that life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you deal with it. In the end, it was Edith's choice to become a prostitute and refuse to leave the region.
Yeah, Arthur is just a good man for helping them
Do you think women had choices in 1899? Lmaooo
In part, yes, because he still took money off desperate people and assaulted a very ill man. Thomas Downes was trying his best, despite his illness, to provide for his family at a time when poor farmers had very few means of getting medical or financial help.
Arthur isn't solely responsible, the society of the time was brutal for the sick and the poor, but he isn't completely innocent either.
Debts are debts and should be paid. Any attempt to avoid the debt is trying to take advantage of the people you owe the money to and is highly disrespectful. When others wouldn't take a chance on your, they gave you a chance.
Aggravated assault which in turn aggravated Downes tuberculosis, tuberculosis itself has progression almost exclusively tapered by immune system strength when taken into account alongside how ideal the current environment is for tuberculosis replication. Healing is one of the more taxing immune system processes lengthy and resources intensive already being compromised, even if not from the beating itself this beating especially from a low honor Arthur would be very difficult on his body that was already fighting tuberculosis.
*The kiss assing for Arthur in these comments are crazy, but if Micah did the same thing to the debt victims yall would had hold nothing back....*
If it wasn’t Arthur it could’ve been Charles. Or Micah. If Strauss hadn’t lent him money another loan shark he couldn’t pay back would have. Thomas Downes destroyed his own family
@@redfs7414 *But if you was Thomas Downes and you were just trying to feed your family in the 1800s where they barely had toilets you will beg to differ, they were desperate, The Vanderlinde gang where just a gang of Vicious outlaws just like the rest of them making lives harder for people than they already were...😂🤷*
11 years later and this video is still being used to teach apprentice mechanics about alignments
No, actually not, she would've still ended up poor, plus her Husband knew what he was getting him and *HIS FAMILY* into, actually it's her Husbands fault, it was kind of Arhur to help, they/he knew the rules, and that's it.
That sounds like Dimitri's line of thinking.
And still, it's Arthur's fault that Downes died as quickly as he did. Just because a car is gonna crash sometime, doesn't mean you're excused for crashing it.
@@channel45853 No, it's strauss's fault
@@drrobotnik44but Arthur actually did the job. Like the other men in the game, he could have said "No," to Strauss.
@@channel45853 then dutch probably would have said something about it
@@channel45853 That's the thing he would've died anyways, probably not even long enough to rake anything of worth up, but as he said in the Video he didn't really smack his Lungs or so.
3:39 Here's the thing, the first time I played this mission, I only threatened Downes, I never beat him. When he didn't give up the money, I thought there might have been an alternate ending to the mission, so I reloaded and did the mission again, beating Downes severely, with the same mission ending. The player doesn't have to beat Downes at all to complete the mission, therefore, Thomas Downes' fate would still have been the same, he would've have died, they would've have lost the farm, and the mother and son would've been left destitute.
The son blames Arthur because the son has no one else to blame, and it's easy to blame a heartless thug who only cares about money.
The dad was already dying and he accepted money from a loan shark. The dad is at fault.
I feel like the Downes family situation wasn't supposed to be a direct comment on Arthur's wrongdoing, but rather a general collection of what Arthur has done wrong. While the Downes situation may not be entirely his fault, the interactions he has with them is supposed to be a symbol for every other awful thing Arthur has done. When Arthur helps them in the "Do Not Seek Absolution" he isn't looking for forgiveness or is not seeking absolution from them, but trying to put right in the world where he has done wrong, with the Downes being the people plaguing his mind due to the punishment he receives from his actions towards them. The Downes are a symbol for all the other people he has hurt.
0:03 Before watching the video I would have to say by the time Arthur got to them it was already too late because Thomas fell for Strauss manipulation’s I mean, if you think about it Strauss could have sent John or Micah and the outcome would be the same
If you don't think the attack did anything horrible to Downes, then you do not understand much about a sickness like TB and the strain it puts on the body. Cause when a person is at a late stage of TB like Downes was, the body isn't able to recuperate. It's unable to heal from the wounds. The body is in a tired state, where moving around is a challenge on patients. That's why when you see a person who is sick without the ability to walk or get out of bed, that's the result of a debilitating illness, which is what TB is. To say that it only affects the lungs, you don't know anything about the body, or even tuberculosis, for that matter. I think it's important for you to research this horrific illness before saying anything like that.
Thomas was already a dead man walking at that point. Arthur killed him but honestly it was probably for the best that High Honor Arthur tried to make it right, because without him giving the Downes some money before he died (giving them a chance to leave and start new lives) then Mrs. Downes would probably continued working as a prostitute and Archie would get worked to death in the mines.
Downes borrowed the money. He had to know that someone would be by to reclaim the money.
I've always interpreted the Downes' family situation as Thomas being the fulcrum of not only their moral compasses but also the reason they were able to live soundly. The two would rather blame Arthur for their husband/father's demise than own up to their shortcomings as people. Archie always came off as a lackadaisical "woe is me" kind of person that was living off his family's land, and Edith felt like she needed her husband's guidance to a more just life.
I think it's a fairly accurate representation on how some mourn the loss of loved ones in real life, some fall victim to the grief and want to blame others for what's happened. Just another subplot in the game that I really enjoyed playing through.
What always broke my heart is when Arthur says "don't thank me" after helping Edith and her son
They borrowed money and didn't pay it back. How could their fate be Arthur's fault because he was sent to make them to do what they agreed to??
Right! So many people take no accountability for themselves and they then project that into how they feel for Downes and act like he was some poor victim instead of what he really was, someone who kept borrowing money despite how it’d destroy his families lives all while knowing he would die before he could ever come close to paying it all off this leaving his debt to his wife and son. He was a big boy and made his choice to borrow money knowing what a loan entailed, Strauss didn’t put a gun to his head and force him to borrow anything. I can’t stand how many people have no sense of accountability so your comment was nice to see.
arthur isn't at fault because of what he did (because he did what he was told to as you said) but because how he did it, arthur was a ruthless killer up to that point and he saw the gang before anything or anyone else, him beating mr. downs made his sickness worsen in a higher rate thus putting him into the ground much sooner but in actuality in this case everyone was at fault, arthur for choosing to beat a sick man for a few bucks, the downs family for taking the loan despite knowing they won't be financially stable enough to oay it back, and ofc strauss for loan sharking desperate people knowing well they won't be able to pay
It's about the interest on the loan, like the story of Merchant of Venice.
You really don't know that it's not morally or legally right to beat a sick and dying man who is desperately trying to provide for his wife and son? Doesn't matter if the gang loaned him money, it's still an evil thing to do. Yes it is Arthur's fault, and Strauss, and the gang and their loansharking practices. Arthur knows this, that's why he feels guilty about it in the later chapters.
I started a new game last week and noticed something. Arthur coughs at the end of the robbery mission with Javier, as Javier is leaving and he's in the barn. this happens regardless of whether Arthur has gone after Downes yet or not, because I chose to put that off as long as I possibly could so Arthur would be healthy for as long as possible during the game. we all know there's no saving him, but that doesn't mean we can't put it off just a wee bit longer. and while this could have been a throwaway thing on that mission, I don't think it was. Arthur doesn't start coughing again until the disease picks up, and I didn't notice anyone else doing it without some aggravating factor like a cloud of dust. Javier's mission doesn't show up until after Arthur has the bar fight that spills into the street. the one Downes intervenes in. and I think THAT is when Arthur got it. the thing with TB, the reason my skin crawled whenever Arthur got too close to anyone in the game, is TB is airborne. just the act of coughing or singing or whatever is enough to spread it. and Downes coughs in Arthur's face when he intervenes in that fight. I think Arthur was doomed after that fight, before he went to confront Downes at all.
I know this might sound stupid but I heard a theory that says that Jamie is not actually Mary Linton’s brother but he’s hers and Arthur’s son. However since her father despises Arthur’s lifestyle and the fact that he’s an outlaw, he raised as his own instead of grandchild.
As much as I would like to agree with you Mary and Arthur would have to have been very young in order for Jamie to be their son because Jamie I think is 20 when you meet him in the game and I don't know how old Arthur is I just know he's in his late 30s and Mary ia at least 41
@@dylanbyrne9597 Arthur and Mary are in their mid to late 30s.
@@theimperialist2686OK thanks for Clarifying that for me
@@dylanbyrne9597 No problem
@@dylanbyrne9597 wait Jamie is 20?
I don't blame Arthur for Thomas's death, Thomas has TB already and at its death's door, I blame Strauss for Thomas's and Arthur's death in the end.
I hate how so many people people just defend Arthur for no matter what.
Like seriously, these people don't understand the story at all.
Arthur himself knows he isn't a good person. At the end he just fixed what he could
It's not Arthur's fault. It was the TB and Strauss.
I think the Downes were lucky Arthur agreed to visit them. Imagine what would have happened if he refused and Strauss would have sent Micah Bell instead.
Arthur's VA really did a fantastic job in that last cutscene. The pain and remorse in his voice was just heartbreaking.
I hope Arthur could've let go Thomas, the Downes would've probably end being there at Annesbourg.
Being able to let go Thomas not only Arthur wouldn't get Tuberculosis, this would surely mean either Micah is even more of a rat and would try to take Arthur out in another way, because I'm sure Micah would have betrayed the Van Der Linde anyways, or Arthur would've taken Micah down quite easily.
For the Downes maybe Arthur could've helped them with the mines and get some information in a possible "I have a plan" from Dutch and attack the mines, obviously failing because of the intervention of the Pinkertons.
Love love love your channel brotha
Thomas should have never taken the money from Straus. It is Thomas fault.
15:28 "arther puts his hands on the forman" forman: gets slammed to the ground
Thomas Downes doomed his family, not Arthur. Downes could have gotten a loan from any other loan shark and it would have had the same outcome. I've known people who are like Downes, so charitable that they put themselves and their family into extreme poverty. I had an Evangelical Christian roommate years ago, she gave so much money to charities and her church that she only had $40 for food every month. I told her that she can't help others if she can't help herself. She didn't listen to me or her family that was telling her the same thing and things didn't turn out well for her.
And I bet you most of that money was not used for a good cause
What happened to her?
If Arthur hadn't beaten Thomas, his family would have died. Wow, i never thought of that
ultimately it's the faullt of the dad and strauss
Thomas Downes would’ve died from TB regardless, which would’ve resulted in Mrs. Downes and their son living in poverty anyways. It was inevitable.
I think the Golf course of the Downes family is the Golf course in Los Santos (in GTA V)
Never realized Thomas stops you from killing the guy outside the bar, that’s crazy
Roger Clark did such an amazing job in this game, and it’s on full display in this storyline.
"Well Thomas Downes did borrow money he couldn't repay, so who's really at fault 🤔, now one could also say Tom killed Arthur" lol 🤪
Actually I don’t care about the Downes family any more than I would care about any other npc in red dead.
We mass murdered entire towns as Arthur and beat thousands of people. We are a piece of shit and not better than Micah in this regard. The fate of the Downes family is the same fate that countless other families had in this universe. I don’t like helping them in Chapter 6.
I still appreciate the story of Arthur and how he redeems himself but it isn’t actually that logical. Fans tend to romanticize the story but if we look at it cold it doesn’t really make that much sense
the Downes took out too many loans and relied on a known loan shark.. TB was not curable at the time. Mrs. Downes had some other options, she could have become a seamstress, worked at a factory, a nanny, a housemaid, anything. She chose that path. they are responsible for their own downfall. What happened to the Downes family is not completely on Arthur's shoulders. Saying as much implies that is Arthur had never visited them they would financially stable family. Mr. Downes even said they own more than the farm is worth. That implies that they owe multiple people.
arthur paid the ultimate price for what he did to the family, he lost his life which he may have been fit enough to avoid, and his gang falling apart may have not been as much of a mess if he was still fit, I reckon the illness would have given micah leverage when whispering into dutch's ear
Here's a hot take: Strauss is worse than Micah, Micah is an up front scum bag but at least he gets his hands dirty, Strauss sends others to do his dirty work. Arthur was being an enforcer, it's the same concept as people who borrow money from the Mob you know what you're getting into best to stay away from loan sharks. How much Arthur did or did not worsen his condition is unknown but at the end of the day Thomas Downes is responsible for that entire exchange.
yea well strauss is a pretty accurate depiction of "the chosen people"... always plotting, but cowardly in nature...
As a person? Definitely not. Yes, what Strauss was doing was wrong 100%, but at least he was loyal to the gang. Micah was there only to help himself, and all he did was cause trouble. Strauss at the very least expressed concern for others, even Arthur himself. Plus, Strauss didn't tell the Pinkertons anything that he knew, and he was tortured to death. This happens even if Arthur throws Strauss out of the camp, showing that he held no disdain for them even after they removed him.
@@stormichow5325 strauss was loyal only because it benefited him, if he could make more somewhere else, he would betray the gang in a heartbeat... such is the nature of his kind...
@@Ernesto-ir8dsthey literally say in the epilogue how Strauss was picked up by the Pinkertons and died in the custody, never saying a word about the gang.
Its not his fault, Downes was dying anyway and his wife would've still turned tricks to get by.
We are all gonna die, but that doesn't mean a murderer is excused for rushing the process
murdering someone thats dying doesnt justify it bro lmfaoo
Thomas could have lived another 5=10 years if not for the beating Arthur gave him. Remember that Arthur's disease was accelerated due to his capture and torture by Colm and the shipwreck. Without those events, he still would have been sick, but he would've lived longer before the illness killed him.
Was just going to say that!
@@Angeloading Nobody said it did, the question was , was it Arthur's fault that the family went broke, and no, it wasnt his fault, the family was already in debt with the bank before Strauss lent them money and Downes was already dying.
Honestly? I'm glad the game makes it clear that forgiveness, revenge, and Redemption are all choices. Everyone has those choices and their reasons for it.
rdr3 better be set in heaven where he tries searching for thomas and micah for killing him, having to kill god and stuff in the process
Kratos Arthur
You can assume to Syphilis killed her as it did to Al capone.
I saw her when i saved the women in Beaver Hollow, but never again. I must not have gone back to Anne's Burg.
Mr. Downes, despite his charity and good intentions, knew he was heading into his grave soon, and what does he decide to leave behind to his family? a debt that could have at best left his family destitute, and at worst, for all he knew regarding one of the most dangerous gangs, potentially murdered if someone more heartless got involved.
imagine, for a minute, what would have happened if he borrowed money from a more brutal gang that would murder his family, or worse, if Micah was sent to deal with the debt. hell, even a bank would be more heartless than chapter 6 Arthur.
and if Arthur didn't come along and give them money, his wife would resort to prostitution indefinitely, and his son would be doomed into being worked to death in the mines.
I actually felt bad playing through that mission.
'Course not. It's the old enemy, "time" and "progress". Strauss found a customer. The customer chose to go for the loan. Arthur was only there to ask for the money. I dunno if a time-limit was ever set, or if Strauss just sent them the day after or not, but if there was any decent amount of time it's Thomas's fault.
That's why Strauss when he was caught didn't say a dagum thing, in the end he blamed himself for what happened to Arthur because he's the one who sent him to collect the money from the guy.
You know, i never made the connection between the end slide and it being Archie and Edith, just assumed it was the Gray and braithwaite kids for some reason.
If strauss hadn't joined the gang Arthur would've gotten sick
I didn’t even beat downes I just kept threatening him until the cutscene played where he coughed on Arthur
There's also the other Arthur that died working himself to the bone.
perhaps Mr. Downes did that as well worsening his TB.
it really wasn't Arthur's fault, he may have "helped" the family get to rock bottom, but he wasn't the one who didn't think about asking money from a random stranger, he wasn't the family's failed breadwinner and he wasn't the one who put the family into debt, maybe his beating ultimately sped up Thomas' death, but everything else was abound one way or another, including Thomas' death ANYWAYS. it's true what the video says, it's just easier to give misfortune and a dead man's failures a form in Arthur... and I don't even know if I blame Leopold either, he was a loan shark, so he loaned, then he had to collect, "render unto Caesar" and all that, though he really should've chosen his clients better, in all fairness
no i don't think its arthurs fault. arthur didn't make thomas downes get tb. arthur didn't give them money troubles. if arthur didn't go to collect the money strauss would have sent someone else. i hate how edith blames arthur for everything. but i think it's her way of finding someone to blame for her unfortunate set of circumstances. of course she wouldn't blame her loving husband. so it's easy to blame the money collector. it's a sad thing that happened to that family. but if anyone is to blame it's her husband for making poor money decisions.
Definitely never knew Edith pulled up to camp 😅
Thomas knew he was gonna die right then and there and that's why he spit in Arthur's mouth knowing he would get the TB.