I want to apologize, I am stupidly sick. So, please excuse sounding worst than usual. Do you believe Abigail was the rat? What would you want to be covered next? Or who?
Dude Abigail wasn't the rat. It's very apparent it's micha. You literally proved nothing about Abigail being a rat. She was literally held at gunpoint...... Even the voice actors came out and said micha was the rat.
@@spartacus2650 i agree n she doesnt got time to be a damn ass rat she got a husband n a child to look After n to take care of ) if they dont like abagil then thats there Problem not ours let them hate her 🥰🤣
When John finds Micah on the mountain, a rat literally comes across the path right in front of the cabin lmfao. Rockstar literally put a rat in a place it could NOT survive, to tell you “hey, you found the rat”
Literally comes across? Literally put a rat? Can we please stop using that L word in a superfluous or incorrect way? It's not going to age well. You might as well say "groovy". You're embarrassing yourself just as much. Twice in one comment, really?
I felt that hosea simply just gave himself up to ensure that Abigail made it out since hosea knew he didn't have much time left and seeing how much abigail meant to jack so hosea figured that it wasn't a hard choice to make, I think he knew that he was going to die as an outlaw in one way or another.
You also have to take into account that when the explosion went off, it would be hard to identify anyone especially a woman. Im sure abigail wasnt one of their main targets so it would make sense if they saw hosea and instantly recognized him. While abigail looked like all the other people running during the panic.
Yeah was gonna say the pinkertons didn't even know who john was when they first saw him in Rhodes i doubt they even knew about Abigail hell they didn't know who jack was they probably only knew about the members who are most involved in stuff like arthur, dutch, hosea, bill, and Javier
I would just like to point out that it was actually Mary-Beth who got the information on the train robbery. In the first chapter 2 mission in Valentine she says that she learned about this train while talking to people or something. She could've been told this by undercover lawmen looking to lure in outlaw gangs. That could be why the law was prepared for the robbery.
No, she snuck into a house, pretended to be a maid and overheard the info about the train from a conversation between rich people (she tells you this in the mission)
@kingnugget4050 she also tells you abt the tip directly infront of the busy valentine general store. Even Arthur suggests someone saw/overheard them in valentine, which led Cornwall to them. Micah was only a rat after Guarma, before then, its like Arthur said. They didnt need a rat, they got sloppy. Micah gets blamed for tha gang falling apart alot, but thats not the case. He played a hand in how it ended up happening, but it was happening one way or another.
@@gbazo762 but im think molly got drunk n she told too so she rated us out wen uncle find her then she got shot nobody liked her noway stuck up bitch Attitude lmafo
@@gbazo762 don’t forget everything micah was involved with usually went wrong, including the o’driscoll meeting which he heavily supported that almost got Arthur killed. Micah wasn’t always a rat for the Pinkertons, but it’s heavily implied that he was trying to guide the gang in a bad direction, in which he did. Of course, Dutch’s deteriorating mental state was the main cause of the gang falling apart, but Micah’s hand in it was enormous.
Here's the proof that Micah was the rat. -How Micah met Dutch. Micah met Dutch at a bar in a town in the Grizzlies named Crenshaw Hills. Dutch tried to sell gold that his gang had recently stolen, but the deal went sour, leading to an altercation where Micah stepped in and saved his life. As a result, Micah was accepted into the Van der Linde gang. Despite being an experienced outlaw who was respected for his skill in combat, Micah was generally disliked within the gang; in particular, Arthur and Hosea saw him as argumentative, reckless and hot-headed, with Dutch alone taking a liking to him. It's very clear to me from the moment he saw Dutch, that Micah saw a mark. Someone he can profit off of and manipulate. See the problem with Dutch is how much of a narcissist he is. He is so vain and so delusional that there is always this plan. Dutch is a weak vain man and Micah manipulated him and milked him for all he's worth. Micah may have been the rat, but Dutch is responsible for everything that went wrong with the gang. -The Blackwater Ferry Job. It was Micah's idea. Arthur and Hosea had a rich real estate scam going on and Dutch went with Micah's idea, because one big score was just too big for Dutch to pass up. And when the job happened. Death happened. It began with Heidi McCourt's murder. "Micah encouraged it" as John would later say. Then Pinkertons swarmed in and it turned into a clusterfuck. Mac and John gets shot to hell, Sean gets captured, Jenny and Davey die. This was the beginning of the end. -If you go to his “hermit camp” by strawberry/monto’s rest, you can find a newspaper clipping about the Blackwater heist (150,000 dollars stolen), and Dutch’s wanted poster (1000 dollar reward) which tells me that his goal was to get Dutch arrested or killed, turn him in for clemency, and then go back and get the rest of the cash, which the newspapers/treasure chest imply he’s done the latter by the epilogue. -Throughout the game Micah constantly pesters Dutch and Arthur about picking up the money they left in Blackwater. From what we learn about Blackwater in the mission where we rescue Sean, Blackwater is completely overrun with Pinkertens. It’s practically their base of operations. -After you save Sean with Trelawny, there is a piece of dialogue at camp where Arthur tells Dutch that Trelawny told him there are posters of Dutch and Hosea all over Blackwater. Thing is, Hosea wasn't a part of the ferry heist. If you read Arthur's journal, he says that he and Hosea have been running a real estate scam while the gang was camped outside of Blackwater and that it was Dutch and Micah who were planning the ferry job. He even says that he's gonna have to sit the job out because he was too busy working with Hosea, which automatically tells us that Hosea skipped the ferry heist as well. So isn't it a little suspicious that the heist was carried out by Dutch, Micah and a group (likely Bill, Javier and maybe Sean and the Callanders) but the wanted posters all over town are of Dutch and Hosea? My theory is that Micah has already been working with the Pinkertons at this point and he acted as their mole in Dutch's whole operation. Then in this case specifically, the Pinkertons and Micah pretty much set Hosea up and had him take the blame for the heist as well, despite physically not being there. It would explain why Trelawny doesn't mention posters of Micah in Blackwater, despite him being pretty recognizable and definitely involved. -Micah's getting close to the O'Driscolls. After the prologue. The next time we see Micah, he's in jail in Strawberry. We break him out and the first thing he does is kill an O'Driscoll. Maybe Micah talked because he realized he was being hanged and the O'Driscoll offered him to join Colm and Micah accepted. And his little murder rampage in Strawberry started by killing the one guy who could rat him out to Arthur… an O’Driscoll he seemed quite chummy with in their cell. Also when they rob the Stagecoach, it’s the O’Driscolls who ambush them. But I believe it goes beyond that. I believe Colm and Micah knew each other before. He offered Micah a lot of money to destroy Dutch's gang from the inside out. -Micah's camp idea in Dewberry Creek. At the start of chapter 3 before Arthur and Charles found Clemons Point. Micah told Dutch about Dewberry Creek and when we find it, it's out in the open and indefensible. So my belief was that Micah was going to have the Pinkertons ambush the gang and pick them off one by one. -The Braithewaites vs Grays. I believe Micah gave Dutch and Hosea the idea to play both sides. The plan was to play it cool and keep things quiet, but Dutch, Hosea and Micah saw get rich quick scheme and fell for the rumored Confederate Gold. Eventually things got loud. Micah most likely told the Grays and the Braithewaites. Sean was killed and Jack was taken and in the end it was all for nothing because there was no gold. -The O'Driscoll "parley." The mission where Arthur gets captured by the O’Driscolls makes me very suspicious. It’s Micah’s suggestion to have Arthur go up on that perch where they seem to know where he is. Colm planned to sell out Dutch's gang to the Pinkertons, but who's to say him and Micah didn't have a deal going on? He sells everyone out and splits the reward with Colm I think the botched O’driscoll parley was definitely Micah’s intention. Did he want Arthur out of the way, was he hoping they’d kill Dutch, was he a double agent for the O’Driscolls or the Pinkerton’s? Who knows? -The O'Driscoll attack on Shady Bell. Before we begin. I had a thought. What if Micah took Kieran away from the camp. He promised to help him prove himself to Dutch and the rest of the gang. In reality, Micah handed Kieran over to the O'Driscolls to show what happens to traitors. Micah also gives them the location of the gang and they attacked. Isn't it a little suspicious that Micah is nowhere to be seen defending Shady Bell? -The Saint Denis Bank heist. It goes wrong fast. You can see Pinkerton agents before any shooting as you walk up to the bank at the end of chapter 4. I think some more proof of Micah being the rat is in the bank job where he is the only one not wearing black. I think him wearing white was his way of having the Pinkertons and the Law not shoot at him. And honestly I believe Micah wanted Hosea killed. If Hosea were there, he couldn't get into Dutch's head. He manipulated Dutch and just showering him in praises and making Dutch believe he's the only one on his side and that Arthur and John are snakes and that all we need is one last take. -Milton says Micah is the rat after Guarma, simply because Milton is too proud and vain to admit that someone like Micah Bell was responsible for foiling the bank heist in Saint Denis or going even further than that. -When Susan kills Molly, take a careful look at Micah. He looks fearful, but glad someone took the fall for him -Look where the gang is in chapter 6. In a cave. What did Arthur say at the beginning of chapter 3? "There ain't no way Dutch is gonna just hide away in a cave somewhere. Goes against everything he stands for. That'd be admitting we're nothing more than lowdown criminals." tensions high, everyone turning each other. Karen deteriorating, Dutch willing to let John hang, Dutch using Eagle Flies and the tribe for his own selfish wants and desires, Micah supplanting Cleet and Joe into the gang, Dutch not giving a damn about his first son dying a slow and painful death and Dutch leaving John behind on the heist and magically, the Pinkertons arrive when the tension finally reaches it's boiling point. -If you chose "go for the money" Arthur will tell Dutch "you let him damn us all" and you can see Micah visibly laughing To me Micah was playing everyone. Dutch, O'Driscoll and the Pinkertons. Micah literally says he only believes in winning and losing. Living and dying. Survivor. That's all there is. Micah literally told us he was the rat from the getgo. I think his consistent habit of being involved in things that go wrong is neither a coincidence nor an accident. His goal, as I see it, is to weaken the gang so he can collect the bounties and walk free. Let’s not forget that he seems to have his own lackeys waiting in the wings in Cleet and Joe. So yes. Micah was the rat from the start and the only rat and the fact that anyone is trying so hard and desperately to believe that Abigail was the rat is so fucking stupid. Micah was a real outlaw, Racist, Backstabber, selfish and knew his actions well. So why everyone wants another member to be a rat is just ridiculously stupid.
i agree with most points but the one about the lemoyne bank heist. micah wore white yes but lenny also did. pinkertons shot lenny on the heist. i just dont believe that if micah told pinkertons to not shoot the person in white, cause this would mean that lenny wouldve not been shot. id like to believe that micah wore white becausehe thinks hes some sorta knight in shining armor. like he sees everyone below him in some sense.
There is a lot of logical flaws in this post, and I don't really want to make a very long post to counter everything. A few things: The common white suit myth, first of all even if you take Milton's words Micah was not a rat until they got back from Caribbean, and the fanbase generally believe he cant lie so we have to take his words because he is a saint. Then, Lenny was shot on sight without hesitation wearing white, Arthur didn't even have the time to save him. The only two got away from the following gunfight was Abigail and John, Micah was there all the way fighting alongside the gang when he could easily arrange a similar deal. Dutch had very good reason to let John rot in Prison, he was arrested instead of shot on sight like the rest of the gang members, he was not executed when they got back from the Caribbean, if this does not smell a traitor, I don't know what will. The only way to clear John's name is wait and see what the law is going to do to him, if it comes to hanging, which is appropriate to his crime, then Dutch would rescue him at the execution because John is not the rat. If John was let go easy, then he is the one that talked. Dutch even said " Not now, Not yet, I need time and no traitors" when Arthur asked about rescuing John. This is also why he was furious when Arthur broke John out behind his back, because now he has no way to know if he can trust any of them. Unlike the fanbase, as a gang leader he needs more proof than words. There is no one in the camp has a stronger motivation than Abigail, she hates the idea about raising Jack among outlaws, and Jack was even kidnapped at one point, how does that make her feel? She even has an end game plan of getting away with Dutch's money since she has the chest located with a key I will stop here due to not wanting to write an essay.
after years of thinking about it, and watching a bunch of videos about it, this is what ive come to. dutch and the gang just got sloppy. arthur said it himself towards the end, they didnt need a rat cause they started making way too much noise, starting with blackwater. from then on, they just got worse and worse at being discreet and covering their tracks. plus, the dutch and them probably had an M.O. that the pinkertons were able to follow. micah only started working with the feds at the end cause he saw where everything was going and since he has no honor, he was gonna do what he needed to do to save himself
I like this conclusion because it makes perfect sense. The gang was getting sloppy and the age of outlaws was also dying. This means lawmen would be more persistent in their pursuit against gangs: hence why it’s so tough for them to pull good scores. The combination of these factors as well as Micah wanting to get the most out of his situation makes this theory make perfect sense. I honestly think that’s what the game was trying to convey and I don’t think it’s much deeper than that and Micah ratting towards the end.
I like this better too because then the times Micah calls you his brother and stuff COULD have SOME truth to them Micah was willing to betray all of them, but I don’t think he WANTED to, at least not until the end But I don’t know if it’s what I believe I think Micah was a planted O’Driscoll, he joined the O’Ds out of necessity, he didn’t care about them O’Ds started working with Pinkerton, so Micah would feed info to O’Driscoll who would feed it to Pinkertons I think when we bust Micah outta jail and he shoots that guy, he wasn’t an O’Driscoll, the cop says there was an O’Driscoll and a drunk, I think Micah was the O’Driscoll not the other guy, Micah kills him to ensure Arthur doesn’t connect any dots I think Micah started to go soft towards the gang in his own way, I think he cared for them minutely , situationally, in a perfect world, before the Old West was dying, he would’ve wanted to run with the gang outright, he wanted community just had never experienced it But he ratted to save his own skin
I’ve always questioned how Milton knew Dutch was responsible for the train robbery in the grizzlies. Under the assumption you killed all the guards then there wouldn’t be any witnesses and Colm’s gang had been in the area as well so it doesn’t make much sense how they knew it was Dutch and how they knew about Arthur being orphaned and raised by Dutch.
because colm would know that his entire outpost at ewing basin had been wiped out, and would of course know it was by dutch’s gang. he would probably know the plans had been stolen for the train robbery as well. colm was known to have some connection with the pinkertons, so maybe he told them, or maybe the pinkertons were able to track down the van der linde gang because they were already aware of the feud between the two gangs and were able to track them down by process of elimination
@@thefakenotckh5062 didn’t really think of Colm talking to them, under the assumption they reached out to him sooner than chapter 2 or 3 then that actually makes a lot of sense.
@@thefakenotckh5062Isn't it said in game that Colm was working on a deal with the Pinkerton's to get rid of Dutch in exchange for being forgotten about for a while?
I always assumed it was an educated guess I mean they knew the gang was headed that direction it fits their MO and he's finding them on the otherside of the Grizzlies
Here’s why I don’t but this theory: With the exception of the fishing trip, everyone of these events put triggerhappy, aggressive men at odds with triggerhappy, aggressive men. If Abigail was concerned enough about their safety to start scheming like that, it makes zero sense whatsoever for her to put John in harm’s way on multiple occasions. “I’m gonna save my husband by tipping the law off to his involvement in a violent train robbery” that’s a great way to get your husband killed. That said, I could see one or two instances of her colluding. Tipping the Pinkertons off to Jack’s outing with Arthur makes sense, because as you said that’s a non-violent encounter and the gunfighter who is there is NOT her husband. Her escape during the bank heist and John’s capture, I could see her giving info there. “I’ll help you get Dutch if you let me save my husband and child.” I also don’t think that Hosea would have ratted her out to Dutch right before his death, because Hosea seems to have enough integrity to know she was doing right by her family (he had a woman who he lost because of his lifestyle and I think he regretted it). Thus, she could have been A rat. However, I also think Milton was smart enough to figure a lot of this stuff out on his own. Like the fishing trip. Obviously, Dutch and his crew is operating in the area. They save Sean, all of a sudden there are heists in the area, the war with Colm sparks up. Good detectives would have guessed they were in or near Valentine because it’s a central location for all the trouble the gang is causing. Going on patrol and running into Arthur and Jack could easily have been a coincidence. And Milton wants Dutch. He’s the real catch. He’s willing to play the long game to get Dutch. As far as Cornwall, two of your trains get robbed in the same area around the same time and the descriptions of some of the people match… Idk how Cornwall figured out Dutch’s gang was the one doing either robbery (although I think he was working with the Pinkertons, right? That would explain that) but it doesn’t take a huge logical leap to go “okay, one of my trains got hit by this Dutch fellow, and then a week later another one of my trains gets hit in the same area… Dude. This Dutch guy keeps hitting my trains!!”
I think Micah saying he’s a survivor after Arthur calls him a ray on the mountain in pretty much him admiting it to him cuz there the only two there and it’s to late to do anything about it
The Saint Dennis bank robery was foiled because they made too much noise. There was the succesful but bloody poker boat heist, then the failed Trolly station heist/setup. Then Dutch made it glaringly obvious something was gonna go down when he ordered the attack on Angelo Bronte which left a power vacuum allowing Agent Milton to move in freely.
I think it’s fair that both of them could be rats. Micah definitely is when you see his reaction to being found out, the wanted poster, the blackwater heist etc. but it could be that they also implied Abigail was as well
At the time of the train robbery near the Lemoyne border Abigail and John didnt really speak at all. She was still mad at him being a crappy father. Even if, then in order to tell the authorieties she would have needed to leave camp - which she did not and also could not do bec auf Jack. Letting John end up in Sisika would also end her chances of ever having a normal life. Also ratting out the gangs whereabouts would not make sense since she and Jack got under fire in Lakay when Agent Milton turned up with a Maxim MG. Abigail being the rat is utter bullshit.
I will give you something to figure out, its actually very easy: Consider the following: The rat must have a strong motive The rat must never be in danger during shootouts when shit hits the fan The rat must have access to detailed robbery information The rat must have an end game plan upon gang destruction The only person satisfies all the criteria is Abigail She is the only one with a kid and unlike john, she hates the idea of raising him among outlaws, Jack was even kidnapped, what does that make her feel? She is never in shootouts because she is not one of the guns. Jack was never present during Pinkerton base assault (Go play the missions and search the camp) but when Odriscolls showed up after Kieran death, Jack was right there and the game made sure to let you know that for making him run towards John at the start of the gunfight. She has detailed information about robberies due to being John’s wife and she was directly involved in Saint Denis bank robbery. She "slipped away" John arrested. She located Dutch’s chest with a key for a possible running away with gang’s money scenario. She even sent Arthur to get the money in the end. If you cant think it through with all the deliberate information left by devs, you probably should just read children books.
@@kaydens6964 First of all your pulling these criteria out of your ass but anyways, abagail was underfire during the lakay shootout definitely after she wouldve started 'snitching' and during a period of time she definitely couldve simply slipped away if she believed john couldnt of been executed due to a deal with the pinkertons and Micah effectively gets all these criteria too besides safety but hes also never at the forefront of the pinkerton shootouts. Micah has the motive of getting off with the cash and his life, he didnt begin ratting purely out of greed but also because the pinkertons had him by the balls, he talks about the BW money constantly and is shown to barely be loyal to dutch let alone the gang, he treats dutch unlike the mentor/surrogate father arthur and john does or boss/teacher the rest of the gang does as more of a mark. Someone he knows he has power over and can convince, he kisses ass, after bronte's betrayal he even steers clear of dutch as he knows he is too angry and emotional to control. Micah by the time hes a rat is pretty much planning every robbery or move with dutch Micahs end plan is to use the destruction of the gang to go back to blackwater and get the $150,000 The Pinkertons also arrested Sean during the BWM and the police of Saint Denis also have their own jurisdiction superseding the Pinkertons who are a corporation not a proper police force making the *arrest* of John a moot point.
@@ultra-papasmurf So tell me which of those criteria doesn’t need to be met for a rat? But anyway. The motive you stated about Micah makes zero sense, BW money is an interest of the whole gang, literally everyone wants to go and get the money, Micah was just being more vocal, who among them doesn’t want BW money? And in order to get BW money he needs Dutch, betraying the gang would be doing the exact opposite of this goal. On the other hand, Abigail has the strongest motivation of keeping her family safe, especially for Jack after he was kidnapped. Being a non combatant is very different when it comes to shootouts, guns are literally in combat, and non combatant are not in direct line of fire. The reason she sent Jack away is because she needs to shield him from the bloodshed like any other mother would do. Micah is the least likely rat among the gang because he was in position of multiple occasions to sell out the gang but didn’t, the Cornwall assassination is a direct proof that Milton was lying his ass off. He was also one of the most Royale member of the gang based on in game actions, like you said, he practically planned every robbery after Caribbean with Dutch, because unlike Arthur who was actively sabotaging the gang behind Dutch’s back or John being under major suspicion, all Micah did was helping Dutch during the most difficult times. Did they put Sean in a chain gang? He was tortured and sent to be executed lol
@@maykonbrasileiro761what if both of em was a rat acroding to miltion he only rated after caribien rockstar always put debouts into our heads and they also put small things for a reason into the games just something to think ab when it comes to rockstar
but she did say for Arthur specifically to take Jack out, and then the Pinkertons find him after searching around the area a bit, as you fish a bit before the cutscene with them plays
@@joedwyer3297 convincing Arthur to stand down and keeping Arthur safe, Abigail liked Arthur and trusted him to help her family as early as Chapter 1, so maybe she wanted to make sure he didn't get wasted
@@channel45853 Massive reach. She ASKS Arthur to spend some time with Jack, because Jack's father was doing a dreadful job [at the time] of BEING a positive male role modal, for Jack. And she asks Arthur to for the very REASON she stated, because Jack LIKES him. Maybe she also had an ulterior motive of making John a "lil" bit jealous, maybe giving him a kick up the arse in the process, to step up to the plate. So here's the thing of it. All that being true, which seems plausible, why would she want her son in harms way, by telling the Pinkertons? Why would she try and set Arthur up, knowing full well he's Dutch's right hand, and pretty much one of if not THE MOST competent member's of the gang? Arthur could gun down both the agents who show up, but in the process, Jack might have gotten hurt. Abigail wouldn't be able to stand for that. And even presuming for one solitary moment that she did, at any time, inform on the gangs activities, in that one event where Jack's taken fishing, she doesn't KNOW that would be what Arthur decides to do. Which means that they [the Pinkertons] wouldn't KNOW where Arthur was going to be. It's quite obvious that they had some idea of the "general" location of the gang, not the specific location but an educated guess. They came across Arthur and Jack by chance, likely considering the river-front a logical area to scout around in. They were "fishing" in another way, and come across a big fish which they hoped would lead to the biggest fish. I could go on here, but it boils down to this. If Abigail Roberts was the "rat", her SONS life would have been in MORE danger because of it. For Abigail, as much as she wanted more for her family, in the medium term at least, the GANG was security, and providing of a life, maybe not the one in an ideal one that she would choose, but the one that she had in the moment. There is no way she could be the rat. Micah, on the other hand, had been around all of SIX MONTHS and shows from a very early stage that he's both a ass kisser AND ambitious. He exhibits no real LOYALTY to anyone in the gang, he only thinks about himself. I have no doubt in my mind he would sell out EVERYONE in the gang, including Dutch, if he thinks there's any benefit to him.
@dbdvdvbhddbdbb the Pinkerton was still trying to track down all the gang members, including Micah, if Sadie and John was able to track him down, so can the Pinkerton and there was a gun fight just happened there.
PLEASE stop with these ridiculous theories. Micah was the rat. Milton said "We picked him up when you boys came back from Guarma and he's been a good boy ever since." How do we know Milton didn't pick up Micah earlier? Milton was under no obligation to tell them every detail. How do we know Micah wasn't captured by Pinkertons before he joined the gang. After all he had Dutch's wanted poster in his little camp behind Strawberry. Notice how much of a kiss ass and boot licker he is with Dutch, maybe he's terrified he'll be suspected, Arthur never trusted him from the beginning. Micah is the most likely person to have ratted out the gang since he joined. All these theories about Abigail and John they carry no weight.
Okay so what about the paper that says the pinkertons were tipped off to the train robbery in chapter 2? Arthur John Sean and Charles all make a comment about how fast the pinkertons show up there nearly 3 chapters before guarma so who was it if micah didn't turn untill he got back?
I feel like Micah could still be the one who tipped authorities off to John's train robbery. All Micah would have to know is which train and when. The details of where and what time are going to be as obvious to lawmen as it was for John to choose those details for their likelihood of a cleaner job. Finding a stopped train isn't going to be that difficult when you know it's going to be near the border (since trains have to stay on the track).
The thing is the tipping off is not as frequent as you think, Arthur and John are practically gunfight magnets. Even escorting the Romeo and Juliet out of town is gonna get you into gunfights. train robbery is probably just increased security due to higher bounties, the law wasn’t like “come out with your hands up now Arthur!”, they were investigating what was wrong. The difference is really in the cutscenes, where Arthur can’t shoot his way out, Saint Denis bank and the camp assaults are probably the only times Abigail tipped them off.
@@kaydens6964 Certainly many of the encounters they had with lawmen were just a result of the suspicious nature of what they were doing and the noise it made while they were doing it. This train robbery specifically though was foiled by lawmen that had been tipped off that the train was going to be robbed. The in-game lore they discussed in the video does include the newspaper article that states that the train robbery was interrupted by lawmen who had been tipped off to the robbery (see 7:20).
@@davepeesthepool you can’t really trust everything the news paper is saying, since this is just like Milton telling Arthur, Micah is the rat. You want to plant doubts within the gang as law enforcement. sure maybe it is tipped off, but it would still be a lot easier to do as Abigail since John even made a remark of going to get Abigail when he departed to get the wagon/dynamite ready.
How he could have tipped the law he was arrested in strawberry at that time as u know John micah doesn't even speak to each other ao how could he tip the law it's abigail who is close too John probably loves him like the our friend said in the video this game is not that straight forward that you can only think ohh they have declared micah as traitor he wasn't traitor before at all
Micah was still camped outside of Strawberry when all this was taking place, so he wouldn’t have had knowledge they were even going to rob the train. Theory debunked
The problem is with the tip off to the train robbery, WHEN would Abigail leave to tip off authorities? She has to stay at camp for Jack and even jn the game John says he is always running into town FOR Abigail so there isn't really an oppurtunity for her to leave. Leviticus Cornwall also could've said "keep" because he can compare to the previous robbery and base it off that. He could also just be blindly guessing because Cornwall isn't exactly stupid, you don't get rich like him unless you know how to exploit people which requires intellegence. Abigail never had an oppurtunity to become a rat and Cornwall was probably just guessing.
Micah quite literally confesses while fighting arthur. And then why would we get a whole mission where we murder micah in the most badass way if he wasnt the rat. Cmon now
if she's the rat she will not stick with the gang after the bank job gone wrong, after the gang return to guarma she immediately said to Dutch that John was captured
Did we all play the same game??? Rockstar could tell us a banana is yellow and y'all would still say its blue. Micahs the rat. Why would Milton lie. He had sadie fucked up. Abigail tied up and Arthur at his mercy. What the hell can he destroy from the inside out??? He had all the power at that moment. Its also really dumb to say Abigail would want him in person to be safe. ESPECIALLY SINCE HES BEEN TALKED ABOUT BEING HUNG . 10/10 logic in this video. My man played the story and still thought this video needed to be made
I know for a fact that Micah was the rat. Right at the beginning of the video Micah tackles Arthur and Arthur says "You rat. You rat!" and rather then deny it, Micah justifies it and says "I'm a survivor"
You know the simplest and quickest way to prove abigail wasnt the rat? The pinkertons shot their temperary hideout to pieces with jack and her inside it Its different for micah as hes able to take care of himself but there is no way abigail would have allowed it to happen that way with Jack in the equation And that conversation with dutch in the caves of guarma is the game trying to draw our attention away from whats really happening. We know by this point its likely someone is tipping off the pinkertons and duch is voicing his suspicions, but the developers never play their hand so early, its to take suspicion away from micah
This is actually the quickest way to prove Abigail is the rat, Jack was never there during Pinkerton camp busts, go replay those missions and search the camp. But when Odriscoll shows up after Kieran, Jack was there. Micah is with the gang during all the shootouts until the very end, no slip aways no arrests.
@@kaydens6964 it's a nice theory but Micah is the rat as confirmed by the developers. Abigail is just a frustrated mother and there are lots of theories on her, like her cheating on John for example but it's all in people's imagination
@@joedwyer3297 If developer officially confirmed that, then it would just be plot holes and bad writing. The truth is there are a lot of clues deliberately left by the dev/writers point towards Abigail being the only possible rat in the gang. Micah is just your classic low honor gunslinger with gang code, being called a rat is the worst offense and hence he had every reason to kill Arthur after that which makes him seem to be the villain without confession.
@@kaydens6964 no not really, in fact the clues point towards micah being the rat, really subtle details and of course really obvious ones like Milton telling Arthur directly. At the end of the game there's a rat 🐀 above the cabin where you face micah. Plus he doesn't even deny it when it's just him and Arthur, just says "I'm a survivor blacklung". He only denies it round Dutch Round the campfire he tells stories about how he'd stab someone in the back, a very obvious and on the nose metaphor for betrayal. Lots of stuff showing he's a guy with no morals who'll do or say anything to survive. Think about it too, the game builds up to this huge moment where the truth hits Arthur like a bombshell, we find out molly never said a thing it was actually micah. Milton has literally no reason to lie to a guy he's planning on killing there and then. You think the developers really intended us to disbelieve him at this moment, when it leads to the final confrontation between Arthur and the rat? It's ridiculous man honestly, from a narrative stand point, the way the game leads up to its conclusion, it makes no sense Just a fun theory
@@joedwyer3297 The thing is, like you said he never denied being a rat, but he never admitted being a rat when from a storytelling point of view, he should be doing the classic villain confession when fighting Arthur. Colm had no trouble with this when he caught Arthur, literally the whole plan was there. The details I mentioned is not what Micah says, or there is a rat above cabin. But actions characters took. Consider the following: The rat must have a strong motive The rat must never be in danger during shootouts when shit hits the fan The rat must have access to detailed robbery information The rat must have an end game plan upon gang destruction The only person satisfies all the criteria is Abigail She is the only one with a kid and unlike john, she hates the idea of raising him among outlaws, Jack was even kidnapped, what does that make her feel? She is never in shootouts because she is not one of the guns.(Micah was there always on the gang's side till the very end) She has detailed information about robberies due to being John’s wife and she was directly involved in Saint Denis bank robbery.(Molly doesn't interact with the rest of the gang, and Dutch wasn't even talking to here let along revealing robbery plan) She located Dutch’s chest with a key for a possible running away with gang’s money scenario. She even sent Arthur to get the money in the end. (Molly's end game is getting shot, good plan!) You see, even when Molly said shes a rat with words, you can exclude her with logical reasoning based on clues deliberately left by the writers.
I find your reasons to be flawed it reeks of having a result and finding reasons to justify it. In Science we call that bias In chapter 2: Abigial didn't know Arthur was going to go fishing + it was so close to camp she would've had to warn the pinkertons at least hours before, there were enough people in Valentine that could've recognized Arthur and Dutch as they had big prices in their head. Hell its litteraly part of the story with Jimmy Brooks. Even Micah being in West Elizabeth at the time could've tipped the pinkertons of where the gang was if you believe he was a rat before Guarma. And on the train job Well Sean I could see being the one who accidentally told a random person about it while being drunk, or Mary-beth got the info of a maid if I remember correctly and told Arthur about it in town someone could've heard them. but the one big lining I see is the gang wasn't exactly being cautious they thought they were safe. In chapter 3: Not enough info but The grays are litteraly the law in Rhodes, Dutch openly Communicating with them and the Braithwates could've given them plenty of time to warn the pinkertons or again Micah could've tipped them of. Chapter4: We don't know enough of Hosea and Abigails part in the Saint denis bank heist to say how tough it would've been for abigail to slip away. I see it in line with Hosea's character to let them catch him so Abigail can get away. Chapter 5: Guarma nothing of note except one big thing the shooting of Lakay at the end, Jack could easily be hit in that gunfight no way Abigail would've let that happen Jack could've easily been hit by the maxim honestly its a mircaly (pot armor) that no one got killed beside the Pinkertons. Who is in Lakay before Arthur, Micah Milton says they picked him up after Guarma so Micah let them there. Chapter 6: Abigail is basilicaly actively working with Arthur and John to get her family out of there while Micah is getting more and more inside Dutch's head making him have more and more knowledge and info on the gangs moves. I don't see Abigail being the rat, Jack is in too much danger in Lakay being the one red lining. Micah is the rat I believe he was the rat before Guarma but After Guarma he definitely was the rat.
A few things, Jack was never there in Pinkerton assault, yes he should be there at lakay, but he's not, go replay the mission and search the camp, its deliberate because when Odriscoll showed up after Kieran, Jack was there in danger. If we want to talk about logic, Abigail is the only logical rat for the following reasons: The rat must have a strong motive The rat must never be in danger during shootouts when shit hits the fan The rat must have access to detailed robbery information The rat must have an end game plan upon gang destruction The only person satisfies all the criteria is Abigail She is the only one with a kid and unlike john, she hates the idea of raising him among outlaws, Jack was even kidnapped She is never in shootouts because she is not one of the guns, and jack was never present at the camp during sudden Pinkerton busts, but when Odriscoll shows up after Kieran, Jack was there in danger. She has detailed information about robberies due to being John’s wife and she was directly involved in Saint Denis bank robbery. And yea she slipped away, and John got arrested. She located Dutch’s chest with a key for a possible running away with gang’s money scenario, she even send Arthur to get the money in the end.
I find it interesting that Micah is there before everyone else from guarma, but idk exactly when or how long he'd been there. I don't think the game tells you, nor do I know when he might've been picked up. Also if he did rat wouldn't he be all beaten up? As signs of torture? Unless he talked willingly
Another big piece of information for the Lakay shootout was that Micah was the only one who showed up dressed in fresh(ish) clothes. The rest of the gang that was in Guarma was a bit dirty still until they got there.
I have a hard time believing Abigail was the true rat… it would have been hard for her to fall off the map with John at the end of the game if she was a true informant. The other key is that I don’t think she would have taken too kindly to Hosea’s death. She was rather close to him. So DEFINITELY after the Guarma chapter I don’t think Abigail would have been obedient. And John being captured with an execution date soon approaching may have been a matter of who captured him? The Pinkerton or the Police in Saint Dennis? Also a dead man can’t provide information. Once Dutch and the others vanished, they may have postponed killing John until they determined he wouldn’t talk.
Honestly? No. Abigail would never put her son at risk (or even John) and both were in danger when the Pinkertons showed up every time we saw an interaction. Micah is pretty good in manipulating others, same as Dutch. And that these videos exist is another proof of it.
I think Milton could have lied because he knew what kind of effect it would’ve had on the gang. He knew it was going to tear the gang apart from the inside so he wouldn’t have to keep trying to kill them and lose more men than he already had.
@@sarahcamarillo1442 It didn't matter at that point. He said it to Arthur, not even loudly. So it's completely plausable that Abigail and Sadie wouldn't here him. And just lying to Arthur who he wants to kill a second later doesn't make sense if he wants to unrest the gang further. And just as the other person below my comment pointed out - why would Abigail shoot him if she was the rat and Milton didn't even come close to reveal her identity? That doesn't make sense either. Micah is far more plausible than Abigail, all his actions and even the hint of Rockstar at Mount Hagen in 'American Venom'.
@@sarahcamarillo1442Why lie to Arthur? He absolutely planned on killing Arthur in that scene and with him mocking Arthur for being sick I doubt he legitimately considered the chance Arthur would get away; especially considering he clearly didn't even think about the possibility of Abigail refusing to let him kill Arthur and retaliating. And if Abigail was the rat then the lie clearly wouldn't be meant for her either.
@@Vallarok117 i completely agree abigail wasn’t the rat, her shooting milton and her actions throughout the game was enough to disprove that theory. i don’t think abigail is the rat but i don’t think micah is either because think about it: even after Arthur dies, micah stays with Dutch. If he truly wanted the Van Der Linde gang to go down, it would’ve meant Dutch would go down with it, causing his arrest. But Micah used Dutch for his cunningness and ability to rob well and that’s why he stayed with him all those years. Wouldn’t he have turned Dutch in if he truly wasn’t loyal? Micah may not have liked the gang, but that doesn’t mean he would rat on the entire gang and risk losing his big chance at being with one of the biggest gang leaders of all time. Also, Micah committed a LOT of crimes along with Dutch during his time in the gang. Why would he be a spy for the Pinkertons and then shoot basically all their men? The idea that he was going to kill Arthur anyways so why would he lie, Did he really truly believe that he could take on Arthur, sick or not, who has proven to be a crazy gunslinger?
To me it doesn’t make much sense from a story perspective. Having the game pretty much confirm in multiple ways (both subtly and directly) that Micah is the rat only for it to secretly be Abigail the whole time would be a strange choice. Besides, if Abigail wanted out she could just leave. Hell John left the gang for a whole year. Dutch himself said he’s not forcing anyone to stay. If Abigail, John, and Jack wanted out all they had to do was leave, especially since Milton didn’t even know who John was until Chapter 3, much less Abigail who never leaves camp. There’s just so much about the theory that doesn’t make sense. Micah doesn’t even deny being the rat when confronted in the epilogue. The only time he denies it is in front of Dutch or the rest of the gang to get them on his side. He straight up murders Susan, which I feel is because of her having no tolerance for traitors as with the Molly situation. He had to get Susan out of the picture and took the chance to kill her. Micah was the one in Dutch’s ear. Notice that Micah is nowhere to be found during the Pinkerton assault in Chapter 5 until after it’s over, which coincidentally is supposed to be right after the Pinkertons pick him up as a spy. The case for Micah being the rat is just so much stronger than Abigail. That and the game is literally spelling it out for us that Micah has been ratting since at least Chapter 5.
For people that are dumb enough to take Saint never lie Milton’s holy words. Micah was there when Cornwall the money bag died under Pinkerton nose. He had every reason and freedom to sell out the gang leadership right there, but didn’t. Imagine saving Elon musk life and how much Tesla stock he would reward you lol John wasn’t there and Abigail didn’t know about the mission because Micah and Dutch were both suspecting there is a rat in the gang, so they only grabbed Arthur, it’s basically the games way to yell at you, the gang members in the mission are not rats.
@@kaydens6964 exactly. The most damning of all evidence that Micah didnt rat tho, is Dutch walks through the door at Lakay & Micah is at Lakay. If Micah talked "after you boys came back from the Caribbean", Micah wouldnt be there, & the Pinkertons wouldve ambushed Dutch & either killed or capture. What the Pinkertons instead did, was an impromptu raid, becuz Arthur alerted them at Shady Belle, & they followed Bill to Lakay, becuz he "asked anyone he can find where you was". Its so funny how we get called idiots by other RDR fans tho, they take everything at face value even tho it makes no sense. What I believe is what Arthur says in Chapter 6 at Annesburg, "maybe we dont need a rat, we got sloppier than the town drunk, & they know who we are, & where we are, & what we're doing."
This is assuming you take everything he says as sacred, he didn't ask any other background member about their names. Unless he admired the badassness John is radiating and wanted to know him, there is no reason for him to even ask this question because he was there for Dutch. Let me ask you a question, if Micah was the rat, why would he not set up Dutch for Cornwall? The mission went as smooth as it can be by rdr standard for its profile , because they only grabbed Arthur while suspecting a rat with in the gang. Abigail has no way to know this, because John was not involved. Micah had every reason and freedom to set it up, Cornwall wanted Dutch so bad, he was also above the law to grant a pardon on top of money reward. Its basically game yelling at you whoever is involved in the mission cant be a rat.
@@kaydens6964 Alternatively, you have to keep in mind that Micah isn't *just* a rat. He's "a survivor." All he cares about is his own benefit, so why would he set up Dutch for Cornwall when Cornwall would almost certainly take Dutch's bounty and not give Micah credit to get a pardon. The smart thing to do is to let Dutch continue until the perfect moment, which is when Arthur is dying. We see that, Micah is so insistent that Dutch come with him, when they're surrounded on all sides by Pinkertons in the area. Further, (and it's been a while so forgive me if I'm misremembering) Micah didn't plan on Arthur being there during that moment, he was planning to do it with just himself and Dutch, which would allow him to get everything he wanted at that moment even if he weren't smart enough to pass it up for another chance later on.
@@GeminiDark Cornwall doesn’t care about Dutch bounty money, he wanted Dutch, he was basically the Elon Musk of RDR2, money is not a problem for him. Micah was supposed to be a rat for Pinkerton there, and the fact that he was there directly associated with Cornwall’s assassination would nullify any deals he could have made with the Pinkerton. If he was a survivor, just being there is the worst thing that he could do. At that point if the game, Micah is way more trusted by Dutch than Arthur, since they are essentially the brains of the gang making plans, and they both suspect a rat inside of the gang, Arthur was just there as a muscle.
Honestly kind of dumb premise to even bring up Jack and Arthur at the river - because what an insane risk to offer her only son as a potential hostage or victim. Arthur seems to have strong moral impulsions - if the Pinkertons tried to take Jack, he’d definitely start shooting. And why on Earth risk her son in that way? Completely irreparable hole.
3:15 I still think it was Micah the whole time, but that doesn't mean Abigail wasn't a rat, as well. This would perfectly explain why Abigail, John, and Jack are able to go into Blackwater without the law immediately on their azzes.
I think this is very circumstantial , in all seriousness Why would Milton tell Arthur it was Micah? He was assuming he was about to kill Arthur… why lie ?
I think it's to trick Arthur into thinking Micah is the rat. Hoping that Arthur feels betrayed and then snitches to him about the gang's next move. It's the "no honor among thieves" kinda thing
Milton knew he wasn't making it out of that room. He was much smarter than the gang and used his knowledge to his advantage. He planted the seed which brought the gang down. Kinda a "if I'm going down I'm bringing you all with me"
@@Wolfsden_Gaming Milton literally set a trap for Arthur and objectively won before he was interrupted… by the person this video is accusing 🤣 He didn’t think he was going to lose. He didn’t do it in a moment of desperation, it was in a moment of pride. He was gloating over his victory! And listen again to his exact words. They picked up Micah AFTER guarma. That’s something I can 100% believe. Maybe Abigail had something to do with the bank robbery and Micah didn’t, the crossing ambitions are part of the drama. But I think it’s very safe to say Micah at least led them to the camp upon returning from guarma. The timing is too perfect my friend.
@@rileyobrien8349 Non of the crew came back from Guarma had the time to find and rat the location, Micah was there first, he is like the least probable member to rat lol Go back and do the Pinkerton Lakay assault mission again, search the camp Jack was not there, Abigail knew they were coming.
OK...I honestly never understood this line of logic. Why would a loving mom like Abigail willingly sell out to the Pinkertons who she knows are lying bastards hiding behind a badge for that slim chance of saving her son? Any smart mom would take the kid, leave the gang, and start over somewhere else. A smart mom wouldn't take a chance on her son's safety, especially with someone like Milton. Abigail is a lot of things but stupid isn't one. Her priority might be her family but she's not going to take a deal that she knows is rigged to kill her
Same logic can apply to any rat, Micah included. The reason Abigail is the most likely rat is very simple if you just detach yourself from emotion. All her actions point towards a rat. She even located Dutch’s chest so she can run away with the gangs money once it’s over. She has the strongest motive to do so, Pinkerton’s words that her son will be safe, if you go back to lakay Pinkerton bust, she sent Jack away before they showed up.
@@geenkaas6380 she does, John literally said he was heading into town for Abigail anyway during the oil wagon mission, and she was one of the scout for Saint Denis bank heist.
@@geenkaas6380 John heading into town for Abigail means she’s in town, which disproves the statement that she doesn’t leave the camp. There is no way she was with Hosea since Hosea’s face is all over the place as wanted criminal. There is a reason the gang sent women for scouting missions.
This is an amazing video. I Heard the theory before but never with this much evidence/detail. That first piece of evidence with the newspaper is pretty damning. The motive was always there but the news article ties everything together pretty well and in conjunction to the fact that she somehow got away and Jon was taken alive in a gunfight that began with a captured Hosea being executed. If this is all true then I wouldn't say she is THE Rat, but A Rat. I believe the combination of both her and Micah manipulating things behind the scenes causing Dutch, Arthur, and John to irrevocably change with the rest of the gang as collateral damage to be an even more tragic and deep story than the one we have come to understand. Hell it even makes Abigail's arc entirely more dark and tragic.
It could well be her, it could also be John Marston, considering how long he's away and is working for the police come the time of the first game. They knew him awfully well, didn't they? The problem for me is how nobody helped Micah have a little 'accident' while leaving the camp, no they all hated him but left him to keep being a cartoon villain? It felt, and still feels contrived purely for reasons of plot.
Wait.....i thought that they found those plans to rob that train and dynamite when they tried to get Colm in one of the first missions....if that is what happened.... Colm could have went and told the law just to fuck with our boys's success in robbing that train.
Very much assuming the first of those. It is "implied" that she was a lady of the night. That DOESN'T mean she was the gang's "bike". We get several incidental scenes throughout the game which highlights that Abigail was a prostitute at one point, due only to her immediate circumstances at the time. It is IMPLIED that prostitution was her PAST. So, she joined the gang to escape that. As for what several gang members say [about Abigail] including Dutch himself, most if not all of that is merely to wind John up. Micah is, predictably lecherous and gross, repeating as a parrot some of what senior members have said, but his words are those of a despicable man who knows very little. And not as it would be for such as Dutch and even Arthur, just a ploy to rile John up, just because it's "fun" to do.
If abigal was the real rat i would be mad, yeah she got a son but she could of just leave the gang and im know dutch would understand ( well before losing hosea ) even dutch tell to arthur " this is not a prison camp who ever whant to leave can leave"
one great flaw in this well plotted theory: why would Abigail betray the gang back when the story really starts regarding conspiracy theories about traitors, which is the Blackwater Robbery. Nothing to gain to rat the gang there and there's the starting point everybody thinks, as the Pinkertons were warned, is where the rat first makes its move. what would drove Abigail? what would drove Micah if he had so much to gain and he prepped the robbery so it would be more of a suspect than Abigail - still I don't believe he did it, he only had eyes for the money? What would John gain, being under fire as he was? And Williamson? Pearson? At this point no one seem to have reason to be a rat, but rockstar lead us to believe there was one. IMO the only rat ever was the gang behavior since blackwater (they literally had a high profile everywhere they went, leaving behind them traces of blood, town after town) and how bad it was lead by a presumptuous, mythomaniac, paranoid and ever more and more out of control of his psychological abilities like Dutch Van der Linde. As Arthur puts it in Annesburg speaking to Dutch and Micah, there's no need for a rat when they as a whole, worstened by a failure of leadership, become so sloppy the Pinkertons only had to follow the bread crumbs left behind.
I have a theory what if hosea was the bank job rat. Now i know it might seem odd but think about it hosea was very persistent on robbing the bank he continuously tried to convince dutch to do it and hosea already knew that gang was starting to crumble around this time and dutch's mental state was deteriorating. definitely didn't have to look up how to spell that. So i think hosea might've made a deal with milton to try to get him to leave hoses and i'd assume the rest of the gang alone in exchange for dutch since milton had previously mentioned he only wanted dutch. Id assume the "diversion" hosea created during the robbery could've been a signal for the pinkertons that the bank was being robbed. Now id assume milton backstabbed him since he has all of them cornered in the bank why not just take/kill all of them. But thats just a theory A GAME THEORY!
Before they came back from Guarma they didn't need a rat lol. Arthur said it himself they always basically ran through a new town with banners flying being loud af Abigail definitely wasn't the rat.
I know people say that Micah is the rat because there’s more proof but what if the game developers are purposefully trying to throw us off? I don’t know who the rat is anymore. Maybe it’s both of them. 🤷♀️
> They literally said Micah was the rat > Even if he wasn't, Dutch and co were so careless and stupid they didn't even need a rat, they made more than enough noise on their own already to bring half the lawmen in the country sniffing for their bounty.
Outside of the tipoff mentioned in the newspaper, which could be a mistake, I don't think anyone tipped off the law about Johns train job. More than likely the law that shows up were the men who were going to be on the train once it crossed the boarder. It was late and the men decided to wonder down the tracks and investigate. Simple as that.
I don't think Abigail is the rat. Thru the whole game she talks about how she wants to take her family away from it all and i don't think she'd do anything to risk losing Jon and especially her son. Also, she wouldn't risk Arthur getting caught. Arthur and Jon are at odds over the fact Jon left her and Jack for a year and Arthur acts like a second father to Jack, so tho i believe she'd not sweat Dutch getting caught she wouldn't risk anything happening to Arthur or Jon for fear of hurting Jack.
I think all your points are wild stretches, Micah not being the rat I could see but Abagail no way, John was unknown to the Pinkerton at the St Denis bank robbery and once he was subdued there wouldn’t be the same reason to kill him as Hosea, and the Pinkertons wouldnt waste men on chasin her if they had Hosea and knew they were about to be in a shootout with a hardened gang of skilled guns
It's funny too how the mission where Micah robs a stagecoach with Arthur it's one of the few to really make a lot of money proportional to the risk involved. I think it's correct though that it's just more of a story about how their way of life is over, Dutch and the Gang's time is up and he refuses to see it. Tbh I think it would have been more profound to this story if like Bronte got away with it. They're going against people much stronger then them, or Cornwall.
How about in the epilog when she tells john shes going to work at the Drs office in strawberry to clean it but yet if you go there when she should be working there is a sign on the door that says gone fishing!
Bill Williamson did it altho Micah is the Pinkerton Informant Micah prob lead them Astray but when Bill knows they could offer him anything like in RDR1 when he said "we all wanted you Dead John" he's talking about Pinkertons not Van Der Linde Gang
17:56 This scene I think is after Micah has convinced Dutch that less people means more money. It would be natural for Dutch to be greedy, but also eliminate anyone from the gang that even remotely questions he orders. i.e. John, Arthur, Hosea, even Lenny.
The second rat was the ódriscoles they found the gang at horseshoe overlook cause of Kieran, kieran disappeared one night and brought the odriscoles to the camp. Colm started taking offers from the pinkertons. Colm meets with Dutch to kidnap Arthur, Hosea said it was a set up, Dutch thought killing colms brother was their beef but colm said he never like his brother. Colm almost kills Arthur In that basement, Colm revealed he’s working under the pinkertons and that they are coming up to the valentine area, in that basement. That would make sense for pinkertons to show up when Arthur takes jack fishing.
Dutch has a superiority complex over Colm. Dutch was different from Colm because Dutch goes on missions with his gang. Colm only ever those it once(I think) when they agreed to meet up in chapter 2. The first time in game we see Colm I feel he did this cause he knew the pinkertons would be in the area. Colm and Dutch both wanted out, Colm saw his way out by giving Dutch to the pinkertons and hoping he’d be out of sight of the law enforcement by working for them with numbers on Dutch. Dutch wanted money and the lifestyle while telling his comrades we can escape the law enforcement like we always have going against the law without the numbers Colm has in his gang. Either way in my opinion Micah was the rat, with Colm being bait to lure out Dutch. I say Dutch cause Milton only wanted Dutch, he gave the gang many ways out, one of which kills Hosea Dutch’s longest member and ‘friend’. The pinkertons even waited on killing Abigail,jack, and John. This tells me they had a hold on Dutch, Milton wanted to get Dutch the least messy way possible. Having Micah in Dutch’s ear, Even had Colm working for them at some point. Milton knew the pressure on Dutch and waited til the cracks where just right, Milton’s the good guy in the eyes of the public painting the picture by manipulating Dutch’s actions. Making Dutch act more irrational too the point only escape is across water which didn’t help if Dutch did have a concussion or some brain damage
Pearson always struck me as odd. He was the only male gang member that seemingly lived without consequences seeing as he openly operated a general store in the end. Bill too considering they are the only two with government ties via the military
It's a pretty big stretch to say that Abigail would send law enforcement on missions where John is going to be involved. What probably would have happened if she actually was the rat is she would talk with the agents and accept the offer of a few thousand dollars for information on where Dutch is, like they offered to Arthur. Then she would send John into town on some errand, then she would sneak Jack out of the camp, probably also with the gangs money if she could get her hands on it. You might ask why Micha wouldnt do the same/similar thing. Well because Micha wouldnt of had a choice. If like Milton said they arrested Micha after coming back from the Caribbean, Micha the "survivor" he is would have no choice but to go along with whatever they said, and what they had him do was go back to the gang and try to break it apart as much as possible, and that is basically exactly what he did.
People point out Hosea and Lenny well I always assumed that Hosea was executed to intimidate the gang and Lenny was gunned down because of one word racism there was a lot of racists back then
It doesn’t have to be shown, characters leave the camp all the time just need to make sure they don’t get followed back. During the oil wagon mission John literally said he was heading into town for Abigail anyway, implying she’s at the town and not at the camp, she was also sent to scout the bank for the Saint Denis heist.
Usually, people that teaches morality codes do not follow those code themselves. Dutch is portrait as that kind of person for me sense minute 1 in the game. "Revenge is a fools game" as Arthur learn from Dutch, but Dutch seeks revenge on Colm sense the beginning of the game with the Train Rob, the Assault to O'Driscoll camp in the snow. About the "rats". Maybe wasn't just 1 rat, probably more gang members speak with the pinkertons. Micah as is told in the game, Molly maybe didn't say anything to the Pinkertons but the follow her to the camp somehow, Abigail may has been forced, or Blackmailed in the event of Saint Denis bank(she was with Hosea in that event). Javier doing some bussimes with pinkertons to return to Mexico without price on his head and some help for the Mexican revolution. Anyone could be the "Rat".
So not only do you show off the scene where Abigail WANTS to go with Arthur and Sadie to break John out of Prison, NEAR the end of the game, AND IGNORE that fact? Yeah your logic is flawed as hell in these videos. I've tried because I like RDR2 content, but saying both Arthur didn't redeem himself when it's the damn title of the video game, and I wouldn't doubt it if someone within the cast or R* themselves finally said the truth, but the whole "Yeah Abi is the rat, the feds wouldn't LIE to you now, would they? After dealing with the indians, I'm sure they're pure of heart!" Whatever man. Downvote me with a nuke if you want, I just can't agree with this shit.
It makes complete sense to me. Even though women were generally more submissive to men, that didn't stop many women in history from having agency. And from the way she acts towards John in the epilogue for something as seemingly justified (and badass imo) as fighting people that stole from the farm, this theory doesn't seem out of character.. She was so mad about it she left him for a while. Even as a woman that would discourage my man from doing crime, I would still admire him for using his skills for something good. I said "what is her problem. Let him be a man!😂". I feel like she is mad enough about being in a gang to do something like tipping off rivals
It wasn’t so much that she didn’t approve of the actions John took per say. She was a criminal herself and rather enjoyed it. “I was always a good thief.” In her own words. Rather that she lamented being dragged back into the life and possibly exposing themselves to the law. When the prospects of a quiet family life were just over the horizon.
I don't think she is because she would never trust send Jack to the river with Arthur knowing he would find agent Milton and Ross there. She would find a way to send Arthur alone to go there.
Reality is, John was loyal to the end. Other than plot armor, we have to realize that the Pinkertons and the Law wanted to hang any Van Der Linde member to show society that they are fighting the Outlaws.
When Marston confronts Micah there’s a literal rat in the scene. Rats dont live on top of snowy mountains. Cant get anymore obvious than that. This video is a streeeeeeeeeetchhhh.
There’s a lot I can poke at here, but I’m gonna speculate a bit myself. Obviously it’s never mentioned, but I’m pretty sure Hosea just covered Abigail’s escape. She loves him too much to serve him up to the law, even for John.
She was too drunk to really snitch and was clearly just trying to get Dutch to notice and talk with her. That's why everyone but Miss Grimshaw hesitated.
10:18 Leviticus Cornwall is a railroad and oil baron. Very rich and very powerful.... He most likely had lawmen secretly on his payroll to feed him info from all the towns and counties. The powerful and wealthy of the world are powerful and wealthy because they make sure to have eyes and ears everywhere.... This is the golden rule of money and power, and also, "Loose lips sink ships." Knowledge is only power when it is in the hands of a very very few.
So, and this is no shit, I’m watching this on my drive home from work and I’m thinkin “man I still feel like it was Micah, he’s just so terribly untrustworthy.” The exact moment on the interstate I’m comin up behind a car in the fast lane with the license plate “M BELL 80”…. HE DID IT!😂
After they said that there was probably a rat, I think it was kinda obvious as the player that it was Micah. He was the only person in the gang who Arthur genuinely did not like at all and I never actually thought it was molly in my playthrough because it was resolved way too easily
The problem is with Cornwall turning up for the train and pointing out multiple train robberies is that we do know for a fact there were at least two train robberies one was John’s job the but you can’t forget there was a job much earlier where you do rob a train
if she was a rat i don't think the acts of rdr1 would have happened as surely betraying the whole gang is enough to get John to escape the punishments he received
Nah, Micah was the Rat along with Molly. I think Micah wanted his own Gang back, needed Money for that and started to spy on Dutch early on in Blackwater. He tracked the Gang, got as much information as he could. He knew Arthur and John were Obstacles that had to be dealt with one way or another. He used Molly to distract Dutch while she cashed in from the Pinkertons. That's how she afforded her expensive Outfits while living as Outlaw. Micah was all about the Blackwater money while trying to get as many members as possible killed. He just didn't expect Dutch hiding the money in the city. So he continued to sell the Gang out while Molly actually started to develop feelings for Dutch. After Beaver Hollow I think that Micah blackmailed and manipulated Dutch to the Point where he suffered from Stockholm Syndrome and that's why he didn't kill Micah. Only when John confronted him he did it. But just to be over and done with it
I feel like it’s hard to make a prequel for such an immense and lore filled game. Marston was captured in Saint Denis to keep the story alive. Its hard to say
The only thing that confused me is that i dont belive abigal woud risk jack to be with arthur because yeah she knew arthur would not shoot at them with jack ,but THEY could! F that they did it with the lackay camp! Part of me thing abigal wont risk jack ,but it still get me confuse about john
Jack was the rat. Just think about it. He wouldn't be suspected considering he's a kid and has a lot to protect, his mother, Cain, His story books and many other things
I want to apologize, I am stupidly sick. So, please excuse sounding worst than usual. Do you believe Abigail was the rat?
What would you want to be covered next? Or who?
I think not cuz she shoots milton and milton told him to join or smth before so I think not
Yes I do believe that Abigail was the rat in rdr2
be serious@@GhosterSlaughter
Dude Abigail wasn't the rat. It's very apparent it's micha. You literally proved nothing about Abigail being a rat. She was literally held at gunpoint...... Even the voice actors came out and said micha was the rat.
@@spartacus2650 i agree n she doesnt got time to be a damn ass rat she got a husband n a child to look After n to take care of ) if they dont like abagil then thats there Problem not ours let them hate her 🥰🤣
When John finds Micah on the mountain, a rat literally comes across the path right in front of the cabin lmfao. Rockstar literally put a rat in a place it could NOT survive, to tell you “hey, you found the rat”
Literally comes across? Literally put a rat? Can we please stop using that L word in a superfluous or incorrect way? It's not going to age well. You might as well say "groovy". You're embarrassing yourself just as much. Twice in one comment, really?
@@L_Trainwell you used it twice as well
@@L_TrainWtf are you on about bro 💀
No there isn’t I just checked
@@SJ-ym1uemaybe it was a random spawn on op’s playthrough that fit thematically, that’s possibly why you never found it
I don’t see a world where Milton DOESNT make fun of Arthur for rescuing Abigail if she was a rat
Why would you think a whore would be loyal to a gang
Yeah he would of rub it in his face like. :" you sacrificing your life for a whore that is my 1# witness!"
Yeah it make sense.
If she’s an informant he wouldn’t do that as his plan would be to frame micha he’s not a child
I felt that hosea simply just gave himself up to ensure that Abigail made it out since hosea knew he didn't have much time left and seeing how much abigail meant to jack so hosea figured that it wasn't a hard choice to make, I think he knew that he was going to die as an outlaw in one way or another.
Interesting theory
I could see Hosea doing that
You also have to take into account that when the explosion went off, it would be hard to identify anyone especially a woman. Im sure abigail wasnt one of their main targets so it would make sense if they saw hosea and instantly recognized him. While abigail looked like all the other people running during the panic.
Yeah was gonna say the pinkertons didn't even know who john was when they first saw him in Rhodes i doubt they even knew about Abigail hell they didn't know who jack was they probably only knew about the members who are most involved in stuff like arthur, dutch, hosea, bill, and Javier
Hey...I suppose that could be true.👍
I would just like to point out that it was actually Mary-Beth who got the information on the train robbery. In the first chapter 2 mission in Valentine she says that she learned about this train while talking to people or something. She could've been told this by undercover lawmen looking to lure in outlaw gangs. That could be why the law was prepared for the robbery.
No, she snuck into a house, pretended to be a maid and overheard the info about the train from a conversation between rich people (she tells you this in the mission)
@@kingnugget4050 agreed llike why would mary be a rat umm weird
@kingnugget4050 she also tells you abt the tip directly infront of the busy valentine general store. Even Arthur suggests someone saw/overheard them in valentine, which led Cornwall to them. Micah was only a rat after Guarma, before then, its like Arthur said. They didnt need a rat, they got sloppy. Micah gets blamed for tha gang falling apart alot, but thats not the case. He played a hand in how it ended up happening, but it was happening one way or another.
@@gbazo762 but im think molly got drunk n she told too so she rated us out wen uncle find her then she got shot nobody liked her noway stuck up bitch Attitude lmafo
@@gbazo762 don’t forget everything micah was involved with usually went wrong, including the o’driscoll meeting which he heavily supported that almost got Arthur killed. Micah wasn’t always a rat for the Pinkertons, but it’s heavily implied that he was trying to guide the gang in a bad direction, in which he did. Of course, Dutch’s deteriorating mental state was the main cause of the gang falling apart, but Micah’s hand in it was enormous.
Here's the proof that Micah was the rat.
-How Micah met Dutch. Micah met Dutch at a bar in a town in the Grizzlies named Crenshaw Hills. Dutch tried to sell gold that his gang had recently stolen, but the deal went sour, leading to an altercation where Micah stepped in and saved his life. As a result, Micah was accepted into the Van der Linde gang. Despite being an experienced outlaw who was respected for his skill in combat, Micah was generally disliked within the gang; in particular, Arthur and Hosea saw him as argumentative, reckless and hot-headed, with Dutch alone taking a liking to him.
It's very clear to me from the moment he saw Dutch, that Micah saw a mark. Someone he can profit off of and manipulate. See the problem with Dutch is how much of a narcissist he is. He is so vain and so delusional that there is always this plan. Dutch is a weak vain man and Micah manipulated him and milked him for all he's worth. Micah may have been the rat, but Dutch is responsible for everything that went wrong with the gang.
-The Blackwater Ferry Job. It was Micah's idea. Arthur and Hosea had a rich real estate scam going on and Dutch went with Micah's idea, because one big score was just too big for Dutch to pass up. And when the job happened. Death happened. It began with Heidi McCourt's murder. "Micah encouraged it" as John would later say. Then Pinkertons swarmed in and it turned into a clusterfuck. Mac and John gets shot to hell, Sean gets captured, Jenny and Davey die. This was the beginning of the end.
-If you go to his “hermit camp” by strawberry/monto’s rest, you can find a newspaper clipping about the Blackwater heist (150,000 dollars stolen), and Dutch’s wanted poster (1000 dollar reward) which tells me that his goal was to get Dutch arrested or killed, turn him in for clemency, and then go back and get the rest of the cash, which the newspapers/treasure chest imply he’s done the latter by the epilogue.
-Throughout the game Micah constantly pesters Dutch and Arthur about picking up the money they left in Blackwater. From what we learn about Blackwater in the mission where we rescue Sean, Blackwater is completely overrun with Pinkertens. It’s practically their base of operations.
-After you save Sean with Trelawny, there is a piece of dialogue at camp where Arthur tells Dutch that Trelawny told him there are posters of Dutch and Hosea all over Blackwater. Thing is, Hosea wasn't a part of the ferry heist. If you read Arthur's journal, he says that he and Hosea have been running a real estate scam while the gang was camped outside of Blackwater and that it was Dutch and Micah who were planning the ferry job. He even says that he's gonna have to sit the job out because he was too busy working with Hosea, which automatically tells us that Hosea skipped the ferry heist as well. So isn't it a little suspicious that the heist was carried out by Dutch, Micah and a group (likely Bill, Javier and maybe Sean and the Callanders) but the wanted posters all over town are of Dutch and Hosea? My theory is that Micah has already been working with the Pinkertons at this point and he acted as their mole in Dutch's whole operation. Then in this case specifically, the Pinkertons and Micah pretty much set Hosea up and had him take the blame for the heist as well, despite physically not being there. It would explain why Trelawny doesn't mention posters of Micah in Blackwater, despite him being pretty recognizable and definitely involved.
-Micah's getting close to the O'Driscolls. After the prologue. The next time we see Micah, he's in jail in Strawberry. We break him out and the first thing he does is kill an O'Driscoll. Maybe Micah talked because he realized he was being hanged and the O'Driscoll offered him to join Colm and Micah accepted. And his little murder rampage in Strawberry started by killing the one guy who could rat him out to Arthur… an O’Driscoll he seemed quite chummy with in their cell. Also when they rob the Stagecoach, it’s the O’Driscolls who ambush them. But I believe it goes beyond that. I believe Colm and Micah knew each other before. He offered Micah a lot of money to destroy Dutch's gang from the inside out.
-Micah's camp idea in Dewberry Creek. At the start of chapter 3 before Arthur and Charles found Clemons Point. Micah told Dutch about Dewberry Creek and when we find it, it's out in the open and indefensible. So my belief was that Micah was going to have the Pinkertons ambush the gang and pick them off one by one.
-The Braithewaites vs Grays. I believe Micah gave Dutch and Hosea the idea to play both sides. The plan was to play it cool and keep things quiet, but Dutch, Hosea and Micah saw get rich quick scheme and fell for the rumored Confederate Gold. Eventually things got loud. Micah most likely told the Grays and the Braithewaites. Sean was killed and Jack was taken and in the end it was all for nothing because there was no gold.
-The O'Driscoll "parley." The mission where Arthur gets captured by the O’Driscolls makes me very suspicious. It’s Micah’s suggestion to have Arthur go up on that perch where they seem to know where he is. Colm planned to sell out Dutch's gang to the Pinkertons, but who's to say him and Micah didn't have a deal going on? He sells everyone out and splits the reward with Colm
I think the botched O’driscoll parley was definitely Micah’s intention. Did he want Arthur out of the way, was he hoping they’d kill Dutch, was he a double agent for the O’Driscolls or the Pinkerton’s? Who knows?
-The O'Driscoll attack on Shady Bell. Before we begin. I had a thought. What if Micah took Kieran away from the camp. He promised to help him prove himself to Dutch and the rest of the gang. In reality, Micah handed Kieran over to the O'Driscolls to show what happens to traitors. Micah also gives them the location of the gang and they attacked. Isn't it a little suspicious that Micah is nowhere to be seen defending Shady Bell?
-The Saint Denis Bank heist. It goes wrong fast. You can see Pinkerton agents before any shooting as you walk up to the bank at the end of chapter 4. I think some more proof of Micah being the rat is in the bank job where he is the only one not wearing black. I think him wearing white was his way of having the Pinkertons and the Law not shoot at him. And honestly I believe Micah wanted Hosea killed. If Hosea were there, he couldn't get into Dutch's head. He manipulated Dutch and just showering him in praises and making Dutch believe he's the only one on his side and that Arthur and John are snakes and that all we need is one last take.
-Milton says Micah is the rat after Guarma, simply because Milton is too proud and vain to admit that someone like Micah Bell was responsible for foiling the bank heist in Saint Denis or going even further than that.
-When Susan kills Molly, take a careful look at Micah. He looks fearful, but glad someone took the fall for him
-Look where the gang is in chapter 6. In a cave. What did Arthur say at the beginning of chapter 3? "There ain't no way Dutch is gonna just hide away in a cave somewhere. Goes against everything he stands for. That'd be admitting we're nothing more than lowdown criminals." tensions high, everyone turning each other. Karen deteriorating, Dutch willing to let John hang, Dutch using Eagle Flies and the tribe for his own selfish wants and desires, Micah supplanting Cleet and Joe into the gang, Dutch not giving a damn about his first son dying a slow and painful death and Dutch leaving John behind on the heist and magically, the Pinkertons arrive when the tension finally reaches it's boiling point.
-If you chose "go for the money" Arthur will tell Dutch "you let him damn us all" and you can see Micah visibly laughing
To me Micah was playing everyone. Dutch, O'Driscoll and the Pinkertons. Micah literally says he only believes in winning and losing. Living and dying. Survivor. That's all there is. Micah literally told us he was the rat from the getgo. I think his consistent habit of being involved in things that go wrong is neither a coincidence nor an accident. His goal, as I see it, is to weaken the gang so he can collect the bounties and walk free. Let’s not forget that he seems to have his own lackeys waiting in the wings in Cleet and Joe. So yes. Micah was the rat from the start and the only rat and the fact that anyone is trying so hard and desperately to believe that Abigail was the rat is so fucking stupid. Micah was a real outlaw, Racist, Backstabber, selfish and knew his actions well. So why everyone wants another member to be a rat is just ridiculously stupid.
i aint readin all that
Did u actually read all that?
@@jordanmasse2954 yeah i read it all now
i agree with most points but the one about the lemoyne bank heist. micah wore white yes but lenny also did. pinkertons shot lenny on the heist. i just dont believe that if micah told pinkertons to not shoot the person in white, cause this would mean that lenny wouldve not been shot. id like to believe that micah wore white becausehe thinks hes some sorta knight in shining armor. like he sees everyone below him in some sense.
There is a lot of logical flaws in this post, and I don't really want to make a very long post to counter everything.
A few things:
The common white suit myth, first of all even if you take Milton's words Micah was not a rat until they got back from Caribbean, and the fanbase generally believe he cant lie so we have to take his words because he is a saint. Then, Lenny was shot on sight without hesitation wearing white, Arthur didn't even have the time to save him. The only two got away from the following gunfight was Abigail and John, Micah was there all the way fighting alongside the gang when he could easily arrange a similar deal.
Dutch had very good reason to let John rot in Prison, he was arrested instead of shot on sight like the rest of the gang members, he was not executed when they got back from the Caribbean, if this does not smell a traitor, I don't know what will.
The only way to clear John's name is wait and see what the law is going to do to him, if it comes to hanging, which is appropriate to his crime, then Dutch would rescue him at the execution because John is not the rat. If John was let go easy, then he is the one that talked. Dutch even said " Not now, Not yet, I need time and no traitors" when Arthur asked about rescuing John. This is also why he was furious when Arthur broke John out behind his back, because now he has no way to know if he can trust any of them. Unlike the fanbase, as a gang leader he needs more proof than words.
There is no one in the camp has a stronger motivation than Abigail, she hates the idea about raising Jack among outlaws, and Jack was even kidnapped at one point, how does that make her feel? She even has an end game plan of getting away with Dutch's money since she has the chest located with a key
I will stop here due to not wanting to write an essay.
after years of thinking about it, and watching a bunch of videos about it, this is what ive come to. dutch and the gang just got sloppy. arthur said it himself towards the end, they didnt need a rat cause they started making way too much noise, starting with blackwater. from then on, they just got worse and worse at being discreet and covering their tracks. plus, the dutch and them probably had an M.O. that the pinkertons were able to follow. micah only started working with the feds at the end cause he saw where everything was going and since he has no honor, he was gonna do what he needed to do to save himself
I like this conclusion because it makes perfect sense. The gang was getting sloppy and the age of outlaws was also dying. This means lawmen would be more persistent in their pursuit against gangs: hence why it’s so tough for them to pull good scores.
The combination of these factors as well as Micah wanting to get the most out of his situation makes this theory make perfect sense. I honestly think that’s what the game was trying to convey and I don’t think it’s much deeper than that and Micah ratting towards the end.
Like Arthur said “you all rats. All of you!”
I like this better too because then the times Micah calls you his brother and stuff COULD have SOME truth to them
Micah was willing to betray all of them, but I don’t think he WANTED to, at least not until the end
But I don’t know if it’s what I believe
I think Micah was a planted O’Driscoll, he joined the O’Ds out of necessity, he didn’t care about them
O’Ds started working with Pinkerton, so Micah would feed info to O’Driscoll who would feed it to Pinkertons
I think when we bust Micah outta jail and he shoots that guy, he wasn’t an O’Driscoll, the cop says there was an O’Driscoll and a drunk, I think Micah was the O’Driscoll not the other guy, Micah kills him to ensure Arthur doesn’t connect any dots
I think Micah started to go soft towards the gang in his own way, I think he cared for them minutely , situationally, in a perfect world, before the Old West was dying, he would’ve wanted to run with the gang outright, he wanted community just had never experienced it
But he ratted to save his own skin
I’ve always questioned how Milton knew Dutch was responsible for the train robbery in the grizzlies. Under the assumption you killed all the guards then there wouldn’t be any witnesses and Colm’s gang had been in the area as well so it doesn’t make much sense how they knew it was Dutch and how they knew about Arthur being orphaned and raised by Dutch.
because colm would know that his entire outpost at ewing basin had been wiped out, and would of course know it was by dutch’s gang. he would probably know the plans had been stolen for the train robbery as well. colm was known to have some connection with the pinkertons, so maybe he told them, or maybe the pinkertons were able to track down the van der linde gang because they were already aware of the feud between the two gangs and were able to track them down by process of elimination
@@thefakenotckh5062 didn’t really think of Colm talking to them, under the assumption they reached out to him sooner than chapter 2 or 3 then that actually makes a lot of sense.
@@thefakenotckh5062Isn't it said in game that Colm was working on a deal with the Pinkerton's to get rid of Dutch in exchange for being forgotten about for a while?
@@John.McMillan yeah he did, he says as much to Dutch during their meeting where Arthur was captured.
I always assumed it was an educated guess I mean they knew the gang was headed that direction it fits their MO and he's finding them on the otherside of the Grizzlies
Here’s why I don’t but this theory:
With the exception of the fishing trip, everyone of these events put triggerhappy, aggressive men at odds with triggerhappy, aggressive men.
If Abigail was concerned enough about their safety to start scheming like that, it makes zero sense whatsoever for her to put John in harm’s way on multiple occasions.
“I’m gonna save my husband by tipping the law off to his involvement in a violent train robbery” that’s a great way to get your husband killed.
That said, I could see one or two instances of her colluding. Tipping the Pinkertons off to Jack’s outing with Arthur makes sense, because as you said that’s a non-violent encounter and the gunfighter who is there is NOT her husband.
Her escape during the bank heist and John’s capture, I could see her giving info there. “I’ll help you get Dutch if you let me save my husband and child.” I also don’t think that Hosea would have ratted her out to Dutch right before his death, because Hosea seems to have enough integrity to know she was doing right by her family (he had a woman who he lost because of his lifestyle and I think he regretted it).
Thus, she could have been A rat.
However, I also think Milton was smart enough to figure a lot of this stuff out on his own. Like the fishing trip. Obviously, Dutch and his crew is operating in the area. They save Sean, all of a sudden there are heists in the area, the war with Colm sparks up. Good detectives would have guessed they were in or near Valentine because it’s a central location for all the trouble the gang is causing. Going on patrol and running into Arthur and Jack could easily have been a coincidence. And Milton wants Dutch. He’s the real catch. He’s willing to play the long game to get Dutch.
As far as Cornwall, two of your trains get robbed in the same area around the same time and the descriptions of some of the people match… Idk how Cornwall figured out Dutch’s gang was the one doing either robbery (although I think he was working with the Pinkertons, right? That would explain that) but it doesn’t take a huge logical leap to go “okay, one of my trains got hit by this Dutch fellow, and then a week later another one of my trains gets hit in the same area… Dude. This Dutch guy keeps hitting my trains!!”
One problem to the Abigail theory - we never see her leave camp except for the bank robbery in St. Denise. How would she pass along all that info?
Also why would Milton lie, he hardly planned on sacrificing himself for the gang to have a false lead
I think Micah saying he’s a survivor after Arthur calls him a ray on the mountain in pretty much him admiting it to him cuz there the only two there and it’s to late to do anything about it
Abigail was not a rat, jeez.
She was a mother with a family who saw the writing on the wall. The end.
The Saint Dennis bank robery was foiled because they made too much noise. There was the succesful but bloody poker boat heist, then the failed Trolly station heist/setup. Then Dutch made it glaringly obvious something was gonna go down when he ordered the attack on Angelo Bronte which left a power vacuum allowing Agent Milton to move in freely.
I think it’s fair that both of them could be rats. Micah definitely is when you see his reaction to being found out, the wanted poster, the blackwater heist etc. but it could be that they also implied Abigail was as well
At the time of the train robbery near the Lemoyne border Abigail and John didnt really speak at all. She was still mad at him being a crappy father. Even if, then in order to tell the authorieties she would have needed to leave camp - which she did not and also could not do bec auf Jack.
Letting John end up in Sisika would also end her chances of ever having a normal life. Also ratting out the gangs whereabouts would not make sense since she and Jack got under fire in Lakay when Agent Milton turned up with a Maxim MG.
Abigail being the rat is utter bullshit.
When someone tells you “they’re a survivor,” they’re indicating you’re disposable. If you can’t figure that out, you’re in for a rough ride.
I will give you something to figure out, its actually very easy:
Consider the following:
The rat must have a strong motive
The rat must never be in danger during shootouts when shit hits the fan
The rat must have access to detailed robbery information
The rat must have an end game plan upon gang destruction
The only person satisfies all the criteria is Abigail
She is the only one with a kid and unlike john, she hates the idea of raising him among outlaws, Jack was even kidnapped, what does that make her feel?
She is never in shootouts because she is not one of the guns. Jack was never present during Pinkerton base assault (Go play the missions and search the camp) but when Odriscolls showed up after Kieran death, Jack was right there and the game made sure to let you know that for making him run towards John at the start of the gunfight.
She has detailed information about robberies due to being John’s wife and she was directly involved in Saint Denis bank robbery. She "slipped away" John arrested.
She located Dutch’s chest with a key for a possible running away with gang’s money scenario. She even sent Arthur to get the money in the end.
If you cant think it through with all the deliberate information left by devs, you probably should just read children books.
@@kaydens6964explain the rat at the mountain
@@kaydens6964
First of all your pulling these criteria out of your ass but anyways,
abagail was underfire during the lakay shootout definitely after she wouldve started 'snitching' and during a period of time she definitely couldve simply slipped away if she believed john couldnt of been executed due to a deal with the pinkertons and Micah effectively gets all these criteria too besides safety but hes also never at the forefront of the pinkerton shootouts.
Micah has the motive of getting off with the cash and his life, he didnt begin ratting purely out of greed but also because the pinkertons had him by the balls, he talks about the BW money constantly and is shown to barely be loyal to dutch let alone the gang, he treats dutch unlike the mentor/surrogate father arthur and john does or boss/teacher the rest of the gang does as more of a mark. Someone he knows he has power over and can convince, he kisses ass, after bronte's betrayal he even steers clear of dutch as he knows he is too angry and emotional to control.
Micah by the time hes a rat is pretty much planning every robbery or move with dutch
Micahs end plan is to use the destruction of the gang to go back to blackwater and get the $150,000
The Pinkertons also arrested Sean during the BWM and the police of Saint Denis also have their own jurisdiction superseding the Pinkertons who are a corporation not a proper police force making the *arrest* of John a moot point.
@@ultra-papasmurf So tell me which of those criteria doesn’t need to be met for a rat? But anyway.
The motive you stated about Micah makes zero sense, BW money is an interest of the whole gang, literally everyone wants to go and get the money, Micah was just being more vocal, who among them doesn’t want BW money? And in order to get BW money he needs Dutch, betraying the gang would be doing the exact opposite of this goal.
On the other hand, Abigail has the strongest motivation of keeping her family safe, especially for Jack after he was kidnapped. Being a non combatant is very different when it comes to shootouts, guns are literally in combat, and non combatant are not in direct line of fire. The reason she sent Jack away is because she needs to shield him from the bloodshed like any other mother would do.
Micah is the least likely rat among the gang because he was in position of multiple occasions to sell out the gang but didn’t, the Cornwall assassination is a direct proof that Milton was lying his ass off.
He was also one of the most Royale member of the gang based on in game actions, like you said, he practically planned every robbery after Caribbean with Dutch, because unlike Arthur who was actively sabotaging the gang behind Dutch’s back or John being under major suspicion, all Micah did was helping Dutch during the most difficult times.
Did they put Sean in a chain gang? He was tortured and sent to be executed lol
@@maykonbrasileiro761what if both of em was a rat acroding to miltion he only rated after caribien rockstar always put debouts into our heads and they also put small things for a reason into the games just something to think ab when it comes to rockstar
I don’t think Abigail was a traitor, but I know she was a little whoo-aah! 😂
She was a fucking whoo-aah!
“We all had her”!!!
Mama's little tramp mama's little whoo-ah. I'm gonna pimp you out bitch
But she wasnt tho n she dont got time to be a mf rat ....like wdf she got a damn husband to look After n a damn child
Ralph Cifaretto in the Van der Linde gang
Abigail didnt tell Arthur to take Jack fishing so imo that just dismantles that situation and there would be no way for her to know before hand
but she did say for Arthur specifically to take Jack out, and then the Pinkertons find him after searching around the area a bit, as you fish a bit before the cutscene with them plays
@@channel45853 what does abigail gain from the pinkertons meeting Jack and Arthur though why would she deliberately plan that it makes no sense
@@joedwyer3297 convincing Arthur to stand down and keeping Arthur safe, Abigail liked Arthur and trusted him to help her family as early as Chapter 1, so maybe she wanted to make sure he didn't get wasted
@@channel45853copium
@@channel45853 Massive reach. She ASKS Arthur to spend some time with Jack, because Jack's father was doing a dreadful job [at the time] of BEING a positive male role modal, for Jack. And she asks Arthur to for the very REASON she stated, because Jack LIKES him. Maybe she also had an ulterior motive of making John a "lil" bit jealous, maybe giving him a kick up the arse in the process, to step up to the plate.
So here's the thing of it. All that being true, which seems plausible, why would she want her son in harms way, by telling the Pinkertons? Why would she try and set Arthur up, knowing full well he's Dutch's right hand, and pretty much one of if not THE MOST competent member's of the gang? Arthur could gun down both the agents who show up, but in the process, Jack might have gotten hurt. Abigail wouldn't be able to stand for that. And even presuming for one solitary moment that she did, at any time, inform on the gangs activities, in that one event where Jack's taken fishing, she doesn't KNOW that would be what Arthur decides to do. Which means that they [the Pinkertons] wouldn't KNOW where Arthur was going to be.
It's quite obvious that they had some idea of the "general" location of the gang, not the specific location but an educated guess. They came across Arthur and Jack by chance, likely considering the river-front a logical area to scout around in. They were "fishing" in another way, and come across a big fish which they hoped would lead to the biggest fish.
I could go on here, but it boils down to this. If Abigail Roberts was the "rat", her SONS life would have been in MORE danger because of it. For Abigail, as much as she wanted more for her family, in the medium term at least, the GANG was security, and providing of a life, maybe not the one in an ideal one that she would choose, but the one that she had in the moment. There is no way she could be the rat.
Micah, on the other hand, had been around all of SIX MONTHS and shows from a very early stage that he's both a ass kisser AND ambitious. He exhibits no real LOYALTY to anyone in the gang, he only thinks about himself. I have no doubt in my mind he would sell out EVERYONE in the gang, including Dutch, if he thinks there's any benefit to him.
I can't possibly entertain this theory after playing both games. It's just not what was portrayed on screen.
It’s exactly what is being portrayed on screen beneath emotions. Use hard logic, everything points towards Abigail being the rat, it’s deliberate.
Stop sniffing glue, kay
@@doomerius1300 *sniff
@@AeroZephron 😅 no, not you, kayden
@dbdvdvbhddbdbb the Pinkerton was still trying to track down all the gang members, including Micah, if Sadie and John was able to track him down, so can the Pinkerton and there was a gun fight just happened there.
PLEASE stop with these ridiculous theories. Micah was the rat. Milton said "We picked him up when you boys came back from Guarma and he's been a good boy ever since." How do we know Milton didn't pick up Micah earlier? Milton was under no obligation to tell them every detail. How do we know Micah wasn't captured by Pinkertons before he joined the gang. After all he had Dutch's wanted poster in his little camp behind Strawberry. Notice how much of a kiss ass and boot licker he is with Dutch, maybe he's terrified he'll be suspected, Arthur never trusted him from the beginning. Micah is the most likely person to have ratted out the gang since he joined. All these theories about Abigail and John they carry no weight.
Dude literally pick and choose what Milton's words to believe lol
Okay so what about the paper that says the pinkertons were tipped off to the train robbery in chapter 2? Arthur John Sean and Charles all make a comment about how fast the pinkertons show up there nearly 3 chapters before guarma so who was it if micah didn't turn untill he got back?
Bro you’re blind
Short answer: no
Abigail killing Milton makes a lot of sense too.
I feel like Micah could still be the one who tipped authorities off to John's train robbery. All Micah would have to know is which train and when. The details of where and what time are going to be as obvious to lawmen as it was for John to choose those details for their likelihood of a cleaner job. Finding a stopped train isn't going to be that difficult when you know it's going to be near the border (since trains have to stay on the track).
The thing is the tipping off is not as frequent as you think, Arthur and John are practically gunfight magnets. Even escorting the Romeo and Juliet out of town is gonna get you into gunfights.
train robbery is probably just increased security due to higher bounties, the law wasn’t like “come out with your hands up now Arthur!”, they were investigating what was wrong. The difference is really in the cutscenes, where Arthur can’t shoot his way out, Saint Denis bank and the camp assaults are probably the only times Abigail tipped them off.
@@kaydens6964 Certainly many of the encounters they had with lawmen were just a result of the suspicious nature of what they were doing and the noise it made while they were doing it. This train robbery specifically though was foiled by lawmen that had been tipped off that the train was going to be robbed. The in-game lore they discussed in the video does include the newspaper article that states that the train robbery was interrupted by lawmen who had been tipped off to the robbery (see 7:20).
@@davepeesthepool you can’t really trust everything the news paper is saying, since this is just like Milton telling Arthur, Micah is the rat. You want to plant doubts within the gang as law enforcement. sure maybe it is tipped off, but it would still be a lot easier to do as Abigail since John even made a remark of going to get Abigail when he departed to get the wagon/dynamite ready.
How he could have tipped the law he was arrested in strawberry at that time as u know John micah doesn't even speak to each other ao how could he tip the law it's abigail who is close too John probably loves him like the our friend said in the video this game is not that straight forward that you can only think ohh they have declared micah as traitor he wasn't traitor before at all
Micah was still camped outside of Strawberry when all this was taking place, so he wouldn’t have had knowledge they were even going to rob the train. Theory debunked
The problem is with the tip off to the train robbery, WHEN would Abigail leave to tip off authorities? She has to stay at camp for Jack and even jn the game John says he is always running into town FOR Abigail so there isn't really an oppurtunity for her to leave. Leviticus Cornwall also could've said "keep" because he can compare to the previous robbery and base it off that. He could also just be blindly guessing because Cornwall isn't exactly stupid, you don't get rich like him unless you know how to exploit people which requires intellegence. Abigail never had an oppurtunity to become a rat and Cornwall was probably just guessing.
The story really pushes Micah. Micah is too proud to snitch. No way he does that IRL but it is just a video game.
In the saint denis bank robbery i think hosea sacrificed himself in order for abigail to escape
the writing on this game was masterful because years later and im still second guessing so much
Micah quite literally confesses while fighting arthur. And then why would we get a whole mission where we murder micah in the most badass way if he wasnt the rat. Cmon now
if she's the rat she will not stick with the gang after the bank job gone wrong, after the gang return to guarma she immediately said to Dutch that John was captured
Micah and Colm were working together from the start the clues are right there lmao
Like what? I believe Mi ahs the rat but it was only after Guarma.
Did we all play the same game??? Rockstar could tell us a banana is yellow and y'all would still say its blue. Micahs the rat. Why would Milton lie. He had sadie fucked up. Abigail tied up and Arthur at his mercy. What the hell can he destroy from the inside out??? He had all the power at that moment. Its also really dumb to say Abigail would want him in person to be safe. ESPECIALLY SINCE HES BEEN TALKED ABOUT BEING HUNG . 10/10 logic in this video. My man played the story and still thought this video needed to be made
I figured Abigail was a rat, and then I thought about it for 5min and then was like, "nah, that doesn't hold up".
I know for a fact that Micah was the rat. Right at the beginning of the video Micah tackles Arthur and Arthur says "You rat. You rat!" and rather then deny it, Micah justifies it and says "I'm a survivor"
You know the simplest and quickest way to prove abigail wasnt the rat? The pinkertons shot their temperary hideout to pieces with jack and her inside it
Its different for micah as hes able to take care of himself but there is no way abigail would have allowed it to happen that way with Jack in the equation
And that conversation with dutch in the caves of guarma is the game trying to draw our attention away from whats really happening. We know by this point its likely someone is tipping off the pinkertons and duch is voicing his suspicions, but the developers never play their hand so early, its to take suspicion away from micah
This is actually the quickest way to prove Abigail is the rat, Jack was never there during Pinkerton camp busts, go replay those missions and search the camp. But when Odriscoll shows up after Kieran, Jack was there.
Micah is with the gang during all the shootouts until the very end, no slip aways no arrests.
@@kaydens6964 it's a nice theory but Micah is the rat as confirmed by the developers. Abigail is just a frustrated mother and there are lots of theories on her, like her cheating on John for example but it's all in people's imagination
@@joedwyer3297 If developer officially confirmed that, then it would just be plot holes and bad writing. The truth is there are a lot of clues deliberately left by the dev/writers point towards Abigail being the only possible rat in the gang.
Micah is just your classic low honor gunslinger with gang code, being called a rat is the worst offense and hence he had every reason to kill Arthur after that which makes him seem to be the villain without confession.
@@kaydens6964 no not really, in fact the clues point towards micah being the rat, really subtle details and of course really obvious ones like Milton telling Arthur directly. At the end of the game there's a rat 🐀 above the cabin where you face micah. Plus he doesn't even deny it when it's just him and Arthur, just says "I'm a survivor blacklung". He only denies it round Dutch
Round the campfire he tells stories about how he'd stab someone in the back, a very obvious and on the nose metaphor for betrayal. Lots of stuff showing he's a guy with no morals who'll do or say anything to survive.
Think about it too, the game builds up to this huge moment where the truth hits Arthur like a bombshell, we find out molly never said a thing it was actually micah. Milton has literally no reason to lie to a guy he's planning on killing there and then. You think the developers really intended us to disbelieve him at this moment, when it leads to the final confrontation between Arthur and the rat?
It's ridiculous man honestly, from a narrative stand point, the way the game leads up to its conclusion, it makes no sense
Just a fun theory
@@joedwyer3297 The thing is, like you said he never denied being a rat, but he never admitted being a rat when from a storytelling point of view, he should be doing the classic villain confession when fighting Arthur. Colm had no trouble with this when he caught Arthur, literally the whole plan was there.
The details I mentioned is not what Micah says, or there is a rat above cabin. But actions characters took.
Consider the following:
The rat must have a strong motive
The rat must never be in danger during shootouts when shit hits the fan
The rat must have access to detailed robbery information
The rat must have an end game plan upon gang destruction
The only person satisfies all the criteria is Abigail
She is the only one with a kid and unlike john, she hates the idea of raising him among outlaws, Jack was even kidnapped, what does that make her feel?
She is never in shootouts because she is not one of the guns.(Micah was there always on the gang's side till the very end)
She has detailed information about robberies due to being John’s wife and she was directly involved in Saint Denis bank robbery.(Molly doesn't interact with the rest of the gang, and Dutch wasn't even talking to here let along revealing robbery plan)
She located Dutch’s chest with a key for a possible running away with gang’s money scenario. She even sent Arthur to get the money in the end. (Molly's end game is getting shot, good plan!)
You see, even when Molly said shes a rat with words, you can exclude her with logical reasoning based on clues deliberately left by the writers.
Fun Fact: For Us That Have 100% Completed Rdr2, The Moment John Returns Home Home We Get The Interaction For Abigail- “Make Love” ❤
Its not that special, we all had her, after all
For real? Wtf
I don't remember that in my playthrough
I find your reasons to be flawed it reeks of having a result and finding reasons to justify it. In Science we call that bias
In chapter 2:
Abigial didn't know Arthur was going to go fishing + it was so close to camp she would've had to warn the pinkertons at least hours before, there were enough people in Valentine that could've recognized Arthur and Dutch as they had big prices in their head. Hell its litteraly part of the story with Jimmy Brooks. Even Micah being in West Elizabeth at the time could've tipped the pinkertons of where the gang was if you believe he was a rat before Guarma. And on the train job Well Sean I could see being the one who accidentally told a random person about it while being drunk, or Mary-beth got the info of a maid if I remember correctly and told Arthur about it in town someone could've heard them. but the one big lining I see is the gang wasn't exactly being cautious they thought they were safe.
In chapter 3:
Not enough info but The grays are litteraly the law in Rhodes, Dutch openly Communicating with them and the Braithwates could've given them plenty of time to warn the pinkertons or again Micah could've tipped them of.
Chapter4:
We don't know enough of Hosea and Abigails part in the Saint denis bank heist to say how tough it would've been for abigail to slip away. I see it in line with Hosea's character to let them catch him so Abigail can get away.
Chapter 5:
Guarma nothing of note except one big thing the shooting of Lakay at the end, Jack could easily be hit in that gunfight no way Abigail would've let that happen Jack could've easily been hit by the maxim honestly its a mircaly (pot armor) that no one got killed beside the Pinkertons. Who is in Lakay before Arthur, Micah Milton says they picked him up after Guarma so Micah let them there.
Chapter 6:
Abigail is basilicaly actively working with Arthur and John to get her family out of there while Micah is getting more and more inside Dutch's head making him have more and more knowledge and info on the gangs moves.
I don't see Abigail being the rat, Jack is in too much danger in Lakay being the one red lining. Micah is the rat I believe he was the rat before Guarma but After Guarma he definitely was the rat.
Oh, just in science? I guess the rest of the english speaking population will have to find a new word.
A few things, Jack was never there in Pinkerton assault, yes he should be there at lakay, but he's not, go replay the mission and search the camp, its deliberate because when Odriscoll showed up after Kieran, Jack was there in danger.
If we want to talk about logic, Abigail is the only logical rat for the following reasons:
The rat must have a strong motive
The rat must never be in danger during shootouts when shit hits the fan
The rat must have access to detailed robbery information
The rat must have an end game plan upon gang destruction
The only person satisfies all the criteria is Abigail
She is the only one with a kid and unlike john, she hates the idea of raising him among outlaws, Jack was even kidnapped
She is never in shootouts because she is not one of the guns, and jack was never present at the camp during sudden Pinkerton busts, but when Odriscoll shows up after Kieran, Jack was there in danger.
She has detailed information about robberies due to being John’s wife and she was directly involved in Saint Denis bank robbery. And yea she slipped away, and John got arrested.
She located Dutch’s chest with a key for a possible running away with gang’s money scenario, she even send Arthur to get the money in the end.
I find it interesting that Micah is there before everyone else from guarma, but idk exactly when or how long he'd been there. I don't think the game tells you, nor do I know when he might've been picked up. Also if he did rat wouldn't he be all beaten up? As signs of torture? Unless he talked willingly
Another big piece of information for the Lakay shootout was that Micah was the only one who showed up dressed in fresh(ish) clothes. The rest of the gang that was in Guarma was a bit dirty still until they got there.
I have a hard time believing Abigail was the true rat… it would have been hard for her to fall off the map with John at the end of the game if she was a true informant. The other key is that I don’t think she would have taken too kindly to Hosea’s death. She was rather close to him. So DEFINITELY after the Guarma chapter I don’t think Abigail would have been obedient. And John being captured with an execution date soon approaching may have been a matter of who captured him? The Pinkerton or the Police in Saint Dennis? Also a dead man can’t provide information. Once Dutch and the others vanished, they may have postponed killing John until they determined he wouldn’t talk.
I think they may have been keeping John behind bars as a means to "force" Abigail to keep giving them info. IF she's a rat. Man....I really hope not.
Honestly? No. Abigail would never put her son at risk (or even John) and both were in danger when the Pinkertons showed up every time we saw an interaction. Micah is pretty good in manipulating others, same as Dutch. And that these videos exist is another proof of it.
Also why would Milton lie? And why would Abugail shoot Milton if she was with him.
I think Milton could have lied because he knew what kind of effect it would’ve had on the gang. He knew it was going to tear the gang apart from the inside so he wouldn’t have to keep trying to kill them and lose more men than he already had.
@@sarahcamarillo1442 It didn't matter at that point. He said it to Arthur, not even loudly. So it's completely plausable that Abigail and Sadie wouldn't here him. And just lying to Arthur who he wants to kill a second later doesn't make sense if he wants to unrest the gang further. And just as the other person below my comment pointed out - why would Abigail shoot him if she was the rat and Milton didn't even come close to reveal her identity? That doesn't make sense either. Micah is far more plausible than Abigail, all his actions and even the hint of Rockstar at Mount Hagen in 'American Venom'.
@@sarahcamarillo1442Why lie to Arthur? He absolutely planned on killing Arthur in that scene and with him mocking Arthur for being sick I doubt he legitimately considered the chance Arthur would get away; especially considering he clearly didn't even think about the possibility of Abigail refusing to let him kill Arthur and retaliating. And if Abigail was the rat then the lie clearly wouldn't be meant for her either.
@@Vallarok117 i completely agree abigail wasn’t the rat, her shooting milton and her actions throughout the game was enough to disprove that theory. i don’t think abigail is the rat but i don’t think micah is either because think about it: even after Arthur dies, micah stays with Dutch. If he truly wanted the Van Der Linde gang to go down, it would’ve meant Dutch would go down with it, causing his arrest. But Micah used Dutch for his cunningness and ability to rob well and that’s why he stayed with him all those years. Wouldn’t he have turned Dutch in if he truly wasn’t loyal? Micah may not have liked the gang, but that doesn’t mean he would rat on the entire gang and risk losing his big chance at being with one of the biggest gang leaders of all time. Also, Micah committed a LOT of crimes along with Dutch during his time in the gang. Why would he be a spy for the Pinkertons and then shoot basically all their men? The idea that he was going to kill Arthur anyways so why would he lie, Did he really truly believe that he could take on Arthur, sick or not, who has proven to be a crazy gunslinger?
To me it doesn’t make much sense from a story perspective. Having the game pretty much confirm in multiple ways (both subtly and directly) that Micah is the rat only for it to secretly be Abigail the whole time would be a strange choice.
Besides, if Abigail wanted out she could just leave. Hell John left the gang for a whole year. Dutch himself said he’s not forcing anyone to stay. If Abigail, John, and Jack wanted out all they had to do was leave, especially since Milton didn’t even know who John was until Chapter 3, much less Abigail who never leaves camp.
There’s just so much about the theory that doesn’t make sense. Micah doesn’t even deny being the rat when confronted in the epilogue. The only time he denies it is in front of Dutch or the rest of the gang to get them on his side. He straight up murders Susan, which I feel is because of her having no tolerance for traitors as with the Molly situation. He had to get Susan out of the picture and took the chance to kill her. Micah was the one in Dutch’s ear. Notice that Micah is nowhere to be found during the Pinkerton assault in Chapter 5 until after it’s over, which coincidentally is supposed to be right after the Pinkertons pick him up as a spy.
The case for Micah being the rat is just so much stronger than Abigail. That and the game is literally spelling it out for us that Micah has been ratting since at least Chapter 5.
More Clickbait = RENT DUE.
Factsssssss
Yep
YOU'LL GET YOUR RENT WHEN YOU FIX THIS DAMN DOOR
For people that are dumb enough to take Saint never lie Milton’s holy words.
Micah was there when Cornwall the money bag died under Pinkerton nose. He had every reason and freedom to sell out the gang leadership right there, but didn’t. Imagine saving Elon musk life and how much Tesla stock he would reward you lol
John wasn’t there and Abigail didn’t know about the mission because Micah and Dutch were both suspecting there is a rat in the gang, so they only grabbed Arthur, it’s basically the games way to yell at you, the gang members in the mission are not rats.
@@kaydens6964 exactly. The most damning of all evidence that Micah didnt rat tho, is Dutch walks through the door at Lakay & Micah is at Lakay. If Micah talked "after you boys came back from the Caribbean", Micah wouldnt be there, & the Pinkertons wouldve ambushed Dutch & either killed or capture. What the Pinkertons instead did, was an impromptu raid, becuz Arthur alerted them at Shady Belle, & they followed Bill to Lakay, becuz he "asked anyone he can find where you was". Its so funny how we get called idiots by other RDR fans tho, they take everything at face value even tho it makes no sense. What I believe is what Arthur says in Chapter 6 at Annesburg, "maybe we dont need a rat, we got sloppier than the town drunk, & they know who we are, & where we are, & what we're doing."
I don't think she'd give up Hosea. He was good to her. And we never see her leave camp.
So if John is under some kind of protection, why when Milton shows up at Clements point does he have no idea who John is?
This is assuming you take everything he says as sacred, he didn't ask any other background member about their names. Unless he admired the badassness John is radiating and wanted to know him, there is no reason for him to even ask this question because he was there for Dutch.
Let me ask you a question, if Micah was the rat, why would he not set up Dutch for Cornwall? The mission went as smooth as it can be by rdr standard for its profile , because they only grabbed Arthur while suspecting a rat with in the gang. Abigail has no way to know this, because John was not involved.
Micah had every reason and freedom to set it up, Cornwall wanted Dutch so bad, he was also above the law to grant a pardon on top of money reward. Its basically game yelling at you whoever is involved in the mission cant be a rat.
@@kaydens6964 that… is strangely well reasoned for a UA-cam comment… that is a good point that I had not considered.
@@kaydens6964explain the rat at the mountain
@@kaydens6964 Alternatively, you have to keep in mind that Micah isn't *just* a rat. He's "a survivor." All he cares about is his own benefit, so why would he set up Dutch for Cornwall when Cornwall would almost certainly take Dutch's bounty and not give Micah credit to get a pardon. The smart thing to do is to let Dutch continue until the perfect moment, which is when Arthur is dying. We see that, Micah is so insistent that Dutch come with him, when they're surrounded on all sides by Pinkertons in the area.
Further, (and it's been a while so forgive me if I'm misremembering) Micah didn't plan on Arthur being there during that moment, he was planning to do it with just himself and Dutch, which would allow him to get everything he wanted at that moment even if he weren't smart enough to pass it up for another chance later on.
@@GeminiDark Cornwall doesn’t care about Dutch bounty money, he wanted Dutch, he was basically the Elon Musk of RDR2, money is not a problem for him. Micah was supposed to be a rat for Pinkerton there, and the fact that he was there directly associated with Cornwall’s assassination would nullify any deals he could have made with the Pinkerton. If he was a survivor, just being there is the worst thing that he could do.
At that point if the game, Micah is way more trusted by Dutch than Arthur, since they are essentially the brains of the gang making plans, and they both suspect a rat inside of the gang, Arthur was just there as a muscle.
Maybe jack was the real rat!?
He disguise as a innocent kid so that no one gonna suspect him😮😮
BITCH HOW LIKE U DONT EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE GAME SHUT THE FUCK UP
Honestly kind of dumb premise to even bring up Jack and Arthur at the river - because what an insane risk to offer her only son as a potential hostage or victim. Arthur seems to have strong moral impulsions - if the Pinkertons tried to take Jack, he’d definitely start shooting. And why on Earth risk her son in that way? Completely irreparable hole.
the pinkertons aren’t gonna shoot jack. in no scenario would they do that at this point in the story. they were just trying to round up the members.
3:15 I still think it was Micah the whole time, but that doesn't mean Abigail wasn't a rat, as well. This would perfectly explain why Abigail, John, and Jack are able to go into Blackwater without the law immediately on their azzes.
I think this is very circumstantial , in all seriousness
Why would Milton tell Arthur it was Micah? He was assuming he was about to kill Arthur… why lie ?
I think it's to trick Arthur into thinking Micah is the rat. Hoping that Arthur feels betrayed and then snitches to him about the gang's next move.
It's the "no honor among thieves" kinda thing
Milton knew he wasn't making it out of that room. He was much smarter than the gang and used his knowledge to his advantage. He planted the seed which brought the gang down. Kinda a "if I'm going down I'm bringing you all with me"
@@Wolfsden_Gaming Milton literally set a trap for Arthur and objectively won before he was interrupted… by the person this video is accusing 🤣
He didn’t think he was going to lose. He didn’t do it in a moment of desperation, it was in a moment of pride. He was gloating over his victory!
And listen again to his exact words. They picked up Micah AFTER guarma. That’s something I can 100% believe.
Maybe Abigail had something to do with the bank robbery and Micah didn’t, the crossing ambitions are part of the drama.
But I think it’s very safe to say Micah at least led them to the camp upon returning from guarma. The timing is too perfect my friend.
@@rileyobrien8349 Non of the crew came back from Guarma had the time to find and rat the location, Micah was there first, he is like the least probable member to rat lol Go back and do the Pinkerton Lakay assault mission again, search the camp Jack was not there, Abigail knew they were coming.
OK...I honestly never understood this line of logic. Why would a loving mom like Abigail willingly sell out to the Pinkertons who she knows are lying bastards hiding behind a badge for that slim chance of saving her son? Any smart mom would take the kid, leave the gang, and start over somewhere else. A smart mom wouldn't take a chance on her son's safety, especially with someone like Milton. Abigail is a lot of things but stupid isn't one. Her priority might be her family but she's not going to take a deal that she knows is rigged to kill her
Same logic can apply to any rat, Micah included.
The reason Abigail is the most likely rat is very simple if you just detach yourself from emotion. All her actions point towards a rat. She even located Dutch’s chest so she can run away with the gangs money once it’s over. She has the strongest motive to do so, Pinkerton’s words that her son will be safe, if you go back to lakay Pinkerton bust, she sent Jack away before they showed up.
@@kaydens6964How would she tell the Pinkertons? Becouse she never leaves camp
@@geenkaas6380 she does, John literally said he was heading into town for Abigail anyway during the oil wagon mission, and she was one of the scout for Saint Denis bank heist.
@@kaydens6964So your first sentence proves my point and with the bak heist she was with Hossea
@@geenkaas6380 John heading into town for Abigail means she’s in town, which disproves the statement that she doesn’t leave the camp.
There is no way she was with Hosea since Hosea’s face is all over the place as wanted criminal. There is a reason the gang sent women for scouting missions.
This is an amazing video. I Heard the theory before but never with this much evidence/detail. That first piece of evidence with the newspaper is pretty damning. The motive was always there but the news article ties everything together pretty well and in conjunction to the fact that she somehow got away and Jon was taken alive in a gunfight that began with a captured Hosea being executed. If this is all true then I wouldn't say she is THE Rat, but A Rat. I believe the combination of both her and Micah manipulating things behind the scenes causing Dutch, Arthur, and John to irrevocably change with the rest of the gang as collateral damage to be an even more tragic and deep story than the one we have come to understand. Hell it even makes Abigail's arc entirely more dark and tragic.
It could well be her, it could also be John Marston, considering how long he's away and is working for the police come the time of the first game. They knew him awfully well, didn't they?
The problem for me is how nobody helped Micah have a little 'accident' while leaving the camp, no they all hated him but left him to keep being a cartoon villain?
It felt, and still feels contrived purely for reasons of plot.
And it's perfectly plausible that there could have been more than one informant, not sure why we have to think in such binary terms.
Wait.....i thought that they found those plans to rob that train and dynamite when they tried to get Colm in one of the first missions....if that is what happened.... Colm could have went and told the law just to fuck with our boys's success in robbing that train.
i mean if she couldnt keep her legs closed why would she keep her mouth closed
Bruh 😂😂
Damn😂😂😂
Very much assuming the first of those. It is "implied" that she was a lady of the night. That DOESN'T mean she was the gang's "bike". We get several incidental scenes throughout the game which highlights that Abigail was a prostitute at one point, due only to her immediate circumstances at the time. It is IMPLIED that prostitution was her PAST. So, she joined the gang to escape that. As for what several gang members say [about Abigail] including Dutch himself, most if not all of that is merely to wind John up. Micah is, predictably lecherous and gross, repeating as a parrot some of what senior members have said, but his words are those of a despicable man who knows very little. And not as it would be for such as Dutch and even Arthur, just a ploy to rile John up, just because it's "fun" to do.
@@Requiemslove 🤓
If abigal was the real rat i would be mad, yeah she got a son but she could of just leave the gang and im know dutch would understand ( well before losing hosea ) even dutch tell to arthur " this is not a prison camp who ever whant to leave can leave"
one great flaw in this well plotted theory: why would Abigail betray the gang back when the story really starts regarding conspiracy theories about traitors, which is the Blackwater Robbery. Nothing to gain to rat the gang there and there's the starting point everybody thinks, as the Pinkertons were warned, is where the rat first makes its move. what would drove Abigail? what would drove Micah if he had so much to gain and he prepped the robbery so it would be more of a suspect than Abigail - still I don't believe he did it, he only had eyes for the money? What would John gain, being under fire as he was? And Williamson? Pearson? At this point no one seem to have reason to be a rat, but rockstar lead us to believe there was one. IMO the only rat ever was the gang behavior since blackwater (they literally had a high profile everywhere they went, leaving behind them traces of blood, town after town) and how bad it was lead by a presumptuous, mythomaniac, paranoid and ever more and more out of control of his psychological abilities like Dutch Van der Linde. As Arthur puts it in Annesburg speaking to Dutch and Micah, there's no need for a rat when they as a whole, worstened by a failure of leadership, become so sloppy the Pinkertons only had to follow the bread crumbs left behind.
I have a theory what if hosea was the bank job rat. Now i know it might seem odd but think about it hosea was very persistent on robbing the bank he continuously tried to convince dutch to do it and hosea already knew that gang was starting to crumble around this time and dutch's mental state was deteriorating. definitely didn't have to look up how to spell that. So i think hosea might've made a deal with milton to try to get him to leave hoses and i'd assume the rest of the gang alone in exchange for dutch since milton had previously mentioned he only wanted dutch. Id assume the "diversion" hosea created during the robbery could've been a signal for the pinkertons that the bank was being robbed. Now id assume milton backstabbed him since he has all of them cornered in the bank why not just take/kill all of them. But thats just a theory A GAME THEORY!
Before they came back from Guarma they didn't need a rat lol. Arthur said it himself they always basically ran through a new town with banners flying being loud af
Abigail definitely wasn't the rat.
I wonder if anyone considered that Micah AND Abbigail could’ve snitched.
I know people say that Micah is the rat because there’s more proof but what if the game developers are purposefully trying to throw us off? I don’t know who the rat is anymore. Maybe it’s both of them. 🤷♀️
> They literally said Micah was the rat
> Even if he wasn't, Dutch and co were so careless and stupid they didn't even need a rat, they made more than enough noise on their own already to bring half the lawmen in the country sniffing for their bounty.
Outside of the tipoff mentioned in the newspaper, which could be a mistake, I don't think anyone tipped off the law about Johns train job. More than likely the law that shows up were the men who were going to be on the train once it crossed the boarder. It was late and the men decided to wonder down the tracks and investigate. Simple as that.
I don't think Abigail is the rat. Thru the whole game she talks about how she wants to take her family away from it all and i don't think she'd do anything to risk losing Jon and especially her son. Also, she wouldn't risk Arthur getting caught. Arthur and Jon are at odds over the fact Jon left her and Jack for a year and Arthur acts like a second father to Jack, so tho i believe she'd not sweat Dutch getting caught she wouldn't risk anything happening to Arthur or Jon for fear of hurting Jack.
I think all your points are wild stretches, Micah not being the rat I could see but Abagail no way, John was unknown to the Pinkerton at the St Denis bank robbery and once he was subdued there wouldn’t be the same reason to kill him as Hosea, and the Pinkertons wouldnt waste men on chasin her if they had Hosea and knew they were about to be in a shootout with a hardened gang of skilled guns
The pinkerton only visited Arthur after he sprung Micah from jail
It's funny too how the mission where Micah robs a stagecoach with Arthur it's one of the few to really make a lot of money proportional to the risk involved.
I think it's correct though that it's just more of a story about how their way of life is over, Dutch and the Gang's time is up and he refuses to see it. Tbh I think it would have been more profound to this story if like Bronte got away with it. They're going against people much stronger then them, or Cornwall.
I just don't get the part of "staying low" on every place they move to and then "lEtS mAke sOmE nOiSe" like tf
How about in the epilog when she tells john shes going to work at the Drs office in strawberry to clean it but yet if you go there when she should be working there is a sign on the door that says gone fishing!
Bill Williamson did it altho Micah is the Pinkerton Informant Micah prob lead them Astray but when Bill knows they could offer him anything like in RDR1 when he said "we all wanted you Dead John" he's talking about Pinkertons not Van Der Linde Gang
17:56 This scene I think is after Micah has convinced Dutch that less people means more money. It would be natural for Dutch to be greedy, but also eliminate anyone from the gang that even remotely questions he orders. i.e. John, Arthur, Hosea, even Lenny.
Could be two rats. Micah AND Abigail, neither knew the other was a rat etc.
The second rat was the ódriscoles they found the gang at horseshoe overlook cause of Kieran, kieran disappeared one night and brought the odriscoles to the camp. Colm started taking offers from the pinkertons. Colm meets with Dutch to kidnap Arthur, Hosea said it was a set up, Dutch thought killing colms brother was their beef but colm said he never like his brother. Colm almost kills Arthur In that basement, Colm revealed he’s working under the pinkertons and that they are coming up to the valentine area, in that basement. That would make sense for pinkertons to show up when Arthur takes jack fishing.
Dutch has a superiority complex over Colm. Dutch was different from Colm because Dutch goes on missions with his gang. Colm only ever those it once(I think) when they agreed to meet up in chapter 2. The first time in game we see Colm I feel he did this cause he knew the pinkertons would be in the area. Colm and Dutch both wanted out, Colm saw his way out by giving Dutch to the pinkertons and hoping he’d be out of sight of the law enforcement by working for them with numbers on Dutch.
Dutch wanted money and the lifestyle while telling his comrades we can escape the law enforcement like we always have going against the law without the numbers Colm has in his gang.
Either way in my opinion Micah was the rat, with Colm being bait to lure out Dutch. I say Dutch cause Milton only wanted Dutch, he gave the gang many ways out, one of which kills Hosea Dutch’s longest member and ‘friend’. The pinkertons even waited on killing Abigail,jack, and John. This tells me they had a hold on Dutch, Milton wanted to get Dutch the least messy way possible. Having Micah in Dutch’s ear, Even had Colm working for them at some point. Milton knew the pressure on Dutch and waited til the cracks where just right, Milton’s the good guy in the eyes of the public painting the picture by manipulating Dutch’s actions. Making Dutch act more irrational too the point only escape is across water which didn’t help if Dutch did have a concussion or some brain damage
Pearson always struck me as odd. He was the only male gang member that seemingly lived without consequences seeing as he openly operated a general store in the end. Bill too considering they are the only two with government ties via the military
It's a pretty big stretch to say that Abigail would send law enforcement on missions where John is going to be involved. What probably would have happened if she actually was the rat is she would talk with the agents and accept the offer of a few thousand dollars for information on where Dutch is, like they offered to Arthur. Then she would send John into town on some errand, then she would sneak Jack out of the camp, probably also with the gangs money if she could get her hands on it.
You might ask why Micha wouldnt do the same/similar thing. Well because Micha wouldnt of had a choice. If like Milton said they arrested Micha after coming back from the Caribbean, Micha the "survivor" he is would have no choice but to go along with whatever they said, and what they had him do was go back to the gang and try to break it apart as much as possible, and that is basically exactly what he did.
People point out Hosea and Lenny well I always assumed that Hosea was executed to intimidate the gang and Lenny was gunned down because of one word racism there was a lot of racists back then
Abigail never leaves the camp. Well it’s not shown. So she sent a messenger pigeon?
It doesn’t have to be shown, characters leave the camp all the time just need to make sure they don’t get followed back.
During the oil wagon mission John literally said he was heading into town for Abigail anyway, implying she’s at the town and not at the camp, she was also sent to scout the bank for the Saint Denis heist.
@@kaydens6964 heading to town for Abigail as in she asked him to go get something, not go get her. She scouted the bank with Hosea.
It doesn't make sense because, if Pinkertons knew Abigail and Jack, then they would've known John too. Instead they met Rip Van Winkle
Bro your actually a genius.
If Abigail is a rat, then Bonnie is Edgar’s informant sent to look after John in RDR1.
I just realized that RDR2 is the only story mode I’ve ever beaten, also the only I’ve ever completed.
I don’t think Abigail would put John’s life at risk, but I guess you gotta use whatever to make a yt video
after john got shot it would have been not so hard for milton to convince Abigail that it was the only way to save john so i can see her ratting
john went missing for a year why is it hard to imagine that in that year away he turned rat
Usually, people that teaches morality codes do not follow those code themselves. Dutch is portrait as that kind of person for me sense minute 1 in the game. "Revenge is a fools game" as Arthur learn from Dutch, but Dutch seeks revenge on Colm sense the beginning of the game with the Train Rob, the Assault to O'Driscoll camp in the snow. About the "rats". Maybe wasn't just 1 rat, probably more gang members speak with the pinkertons. Micah as is told in the game, Molly maybe didn't say anything to the Pinkertons but the follow her to the camp somehow, Abigail may has been forced, or Blackmailed in the event of Saint Denis bank(she was with Hosea in that event). Javier doing some bussimes with pinkertons to return to Mexico without price on his head and some help for the Mexican revolution. Anyone could be the "Rat".
So not only do you show off the scene where Abigail WANTS to go with Arthur and Sadie to break John out of Prison, NEAR the end of the game, AND IGNORE that fact? Yeah your logic is flawed as hell in these videos. I've tried because I like RDR2 content, but saying both Arthur didn't redeem himself when it's the damn title of the video game, and I wouldn't doubt it if someone within the cast or R* themselves finally said the truth, but the whole "Yeah Abi is the rat, the feds wouldn't LIE to you now, would they? After dealing with the indians, I'm sure they're pure of heart!" Whatever man. Downvote me with a nuke if you want, I just can't agree with this shit.
It makes complete sense to me. Even though women were generally more submissive to men, that didn't stop many women in history from having agency. And from the way she acts towards John in the epilogue for something as seemingly justified (and badass imo) as fighting people that stole from the farm, this theory doesn't seem out of character.. She was so mad about it she left him for a while. Even as a woman that would discourage my man from doing crime, I would still admire him for using his skills for something good. I said "what is her problem. Let him be a man!😂".
I feel like she is mad enough about being in a gang to do something like tipping off rivals
It wasn’t so much that she didn’t approve of the actions John took per say. She was a criminal herself and rather enjoyed it. “I was always a good thief.” In her own words. Rather that she lamented being dragged back into the life and possibly exposing themselves to the law. When the prospects of a quiet family life were just over the horizon.
@@Fockfly Yeah
IDK if Abby would ever switch up on Hosea and Arthur like that, Dutch and John notwithstanding
I don't think she is because she would never trust send Jack to the river with Arthur knowing he would find agent Milton and Ross there. She would find a way to send Arthur alone to go there.
Reality is, John was loyal to the end. Other than plot armor, we have to realize that the Pinkertons and the Law wanted to hang any Van Der Linde member to show society that they are fighting the Outlaws.
When Marston confronts Micah there’s a literal rat in the scene. Rats dont live on top of snowy mountains. Cant get anymore obvious than that.
This video is a streeeeeeeeeetchhhh.
Micah was a rat but there can be more rats then just Micah
the real rat was Jack
I think thats partly why dutch absolutely trashes abigail in red dead 1 indont think he knew for shurebut he knew something was up
Abigail wasn't the rat like obviously was Micah
The end we find out Micah is the rat but who told them about the bank that's the part I'm confused about
There’s a lot I can poke at here, but I’m gonna speculate a bit myself. Obviously it’s never mentioned, but I’m pretty sure Hosea just covered Abigail’s escape. She loves him too much to serve him up to the law, even for John.
but not for Jack
I like how even rdr content creators forget molly excited 😂
She was too drunk to really snitch and was clearly just trying to get Dutch to notice and talk with her. That's why everyone but Miss Grimshaw hesitated.
10:18 Leviticus Cornwall is a railroad and oil baron. Very rich and very powerful.... He most likely had lawmen secretly on his payroll to feed him info from all the towns and counties. The powerful and wealthy of the world are powerful and wealthy because they make sure to have eyes and ears everywhere.... This is the golden rule of money and power, and also, "Loose lips sink ships." Knowledge is only power when it is in the hands of a very very few.
So, and this is no shit, I’m watching this on my drive home from work and I’m thinkin “man I still feel like it was Micah, he’s just so terribly untrustworthy.” The exact moment on the interstate I’m comin up behind a car in the fast lane with the license plate “M BELL 80”…. HE DID IT!😂
“A protagonist that’s nearly universally loved.”
Watching reactions of female and gay letsplayers taught me that. Arthur is a Man’s Man’s Man.
After they said that there was probably a rat, I think it was kinda obvious as the player that it was Micah. He was the only person in the gang who Arthur genuinely did not like at all and I never actually thought it was molly in my playthrough because it was resolved way too easily
The problem is with Cornwall turning up for the train and pointing out multiple train robberies is that we do know for a fact there were at least two train robberies one was John’s job the but you can’t forget there was a job much earlier where you do rob a train
if she was a rat i don't think the acts of rdr1 would have happened as surely betraying the whole gang is enough to get John to escape the punishments he received
Nah, Micah was the Rat along with Molly. I think Micah wanted his own Gang back, needed Money for that and started to spy on Dutch early on in Blackwater. He tracked the Gang, got as much information as he could. He knew Arthur and John were Obstacles that had to be dealt with one way or another. He used Molly to distract Dutch while she cashed in from the Pinkertons. That's how she afforded her expensive Outfits while living as Outlaw. Micah was all about the Blackwater money while trying to get as many members as possible killed. He just didn't expect Dutch hiding the money in the city. So he continued to sell the Gang out while Molly actually started to develop feelings for Dutch. After Beaver Hollow I think that Micah blackmailed and manipulated Dutch to the Point where he suffered from Stockholm Syndrome and that's why he didn't kill Micah. Only when John confronted him he did it. But just to be over and done with it
I feel like it’s hard to make a prequel for such an immense and lore filled game. Marston was captured in Saint Denis to keep the story alive. Its hard to say
The only thing that confused me is that i dont belive abigal woud risk jack to be with arthur because yeah she knew arthur would not shoot at them with jack ,but THEY could! F that they did it with the lackay camp! Part of me thing abigal wont risk jack ,but it still get me confuse about john
Jack was the rat. Just think about it. He wouldn't be suspected considering he's a kid and has a lot to protect, his mother, Cain, His story books and many other things