FINAL ATTEMPT Modern US Carrier Group vs WWII IJN Pearl Harbor Strike Group (Naval 44c) | DCS
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2024
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3:49 Predictions
4:24 FIGHT!
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So are those true F-35C models? They look like they have foldable wings? Where can a brother get his hands on one?
ua-cam.com/video/Y3yDHtn85Ak/v-deo.html
Thanks but that mod has the A and B only
@@grimreapers One advice... Save money for a VERY GOOD PC... And when they will put the plane carrier reload procedures on DCS, repeat again...
@@Yamato-tp2kf i could see this happing
@@Yamato-tp2kf Save money for a good PC? That's only half the battle, just finding a GPU is hard enough. Then deciding if you want to pay ridiculously bloated prices for one is the other half.
Don’t forget that a carrier group also includes an SSN. That alone could take out the ships with Mk48 torpedoes.
Absolutely. They forgot to include at least one ssn.
The Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke class ships also have torpedo tubes. Could they have also been used against surface ships?
@@waynec3563 Not unless they were within shouting distance of them. Torpedoes only carry a small amount of fuel
To be fair, a modern Sub would have been able to sink _all_ of the carriers before the Japanese knew what was happening!
Exactly
There is no way a modern carrier group should ever suffer any damage from a WWII era group except maybe a single very lucky shot. The WWII group would simply not know what hit them. Any modeling that shows a different result needs to be seriously adjusted.
And a diesel powered sub would never get inside a modern carrier group and sink the most expensive aircraft carrier in the world now would it? (I think Sweden would beg to differ)
Never say never and never underestimate your enemy no matter how inferior their equipment might be ! just saying!
@@wideyxyz2271 Believe it or not, war games and real wars aren't actually the same thing.
@@wideyxyz2271 that wouldn’t sink the ship, mess it up, yes, possibly make it go home for repairs, yes, they are made to survive those type things as they are very expensive in lives, initial cost, plus all the planes on it and upkeep, training and wages wasted on dead sailors, they can take a torp, missiles and what not, and live.
@@wideyxyz2271 your comment shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what a diesel sub can do. They are essentially silent when underwater, as they operate off of a battery. That is the whole benefit to a diesel sub. The problem is they have to surface to breathe.
@@wideyxyz2271 if anyone had a modern diesel sub in WW2 that would have been a serious game changer... The conditions were also absolutely perfect for it to happen. So, no, in friendly waters under combat conditions no modern diesel sub would make it inside a modern carrier group. The swedish captain could bottom his boat and wait for the carrier group to run him over, and yes, that was an extremely interesting lesson learned, but it doesn't really change anything.
The generational gap of capabilities is just laughably extreme at this point and actual history teaches that even a gap of a single generation in recent times will aleviate massive numerical gaps. That's why Iraq never stood a chance.
The reality is that all of those Japanese ships would have been mission killed after the first 2 harpoon hits. For the several hundred Harpoons launched, not a single thing would be floating. The DCS damage model for Japanese WWII ships is far too forgiving. Three Harpoons would completely disable a carrier, easily.
The damage model on anything that doesn't fly is atrocious in general.
Unarmored flight decks... damage control procedures that were fair-to-middling at best... A command structure that was entirely too rigid... Yeah, the Kido Butai wouldn't have lasted ten minutes against this sort of an assault.
Saying only 2 harpoons, with payload under 500 lbs, can take out of the fight a WWII era carrier that's designed and compartmentalized for sustaining hits while maintaining partial combat effectiveness, by hitting above the waterline, is a bit of a stretch. They'll lose, no doubt, but laws of physics still apply. Barring any lucky hits on ammo storage, it'll take more than 2.
A single good hit on the wooden deck would take out the carriers combat effectiveness
@@georgedang449 Never seen the videos of harpoon hits sinking ships have you? Trust me when I tell you that a Harpoon hit will take down a ship.
"There's something primal about it, Like eating meat in a cave" Awesome channel, fantastic commentary, two thumbs up :)
Wow two?!?!!?
Meat that eats you back.
Agree w/others that in the "real" world the Japanese fleet would never damage a single American fighter or vessel. The over the horizon capabilities of the ships alone would prevent the Japanese destroyers from reaching the fleet. Fighters would be so high and fast they could drop guided munitions on the carriers that would have all of them out of the fight before any Japanese even knew they were in one. Whatever Zeros got off of the carrier would be shredded.
only problem would be knowing they were there to attack.... although since its a carrier group traveling through time they may have hindsight.
@@blackdeath4eternity 2-3 judiciously placed E-2s should do the trick.
@@blackdeath4eternity And also they would not have satellites to aid them . So would render lots of arms , navigation , communication , fire control inoperable ....a high tech against a low tech foe.
@@petemelanyevans9162 indeed.
@@petemelanyevans9162 it’s a good point. Still, fly above zeros ceiling and drop laser guided GBUs onto the flight deck and those carriers are toast. The HARPOONS would get through before the enemy fleet even knew what they were. The confusion alone about what was smashing them would render their fleet nearly combat ineffective.
I'm pretty sure that a Nimitz-class carrier, at battle speed, could outrun WWII-era Japanese destroyers, especially with a 20-mile head start. The Nimitz-class' maximum speed has never been publicly revealed, but has been listed as "in excess of 30 knots" and has widely been understood to be faster than that. Few WWII-era destroyers could exceed 35 knots, especially for any sustained period, and their speed would be considerably reduced in heavy seas. The easy strategy for the U.S. super carrier would be shoot-and-scoot -- keep ahead and out of range of the pursuing Japanese destroyers (15,000 to 18,000 yards) while landing, re-arming and launching its attack aircraft. The Japanese destroyers, with no air cover, would be sitting ducks. Thus, there would be no reason to sacrifice the U.S. destroyers or cruisers, either. Furthermore, this simulation also omitted one of the key elements of U.S. Navy's carrier battle groups: U.S. carriers almost always travel in concert with a Los Angeles- or Virginia-class nuclear-powered attack sub -- which would also pick off Japanese ships with modern high-tech torpedoes.
Guys I know that have served on Nimitz class carriers say they'll comfortably go 50 or 60 knots. They are the fastest ships in the fleet.
LOL, there is an old audio tape of US ships from the Nimitz carrier group trying to avoid a typhoon and the Nimitz took off to get the hell out of there. A comment from one escort ship to another about the carriers location stated that they had no idea where she was, but the last time they saw her she was disappearing over the horizon doing 50+ knots
@@moabfool which is wild considering they are the biggest ships in the fleet!
They are very very fast
@@realburglazofficial2613 Thats the joy of basically unlimited nuclear power!
In all honesty a single flight of F/A-18s armed with 2000lb guided bombs would have been able to take out the carriers from 40,000 ft in about 2 mins the zeros wouldn't be able to get that high and the laser guided bombs would have been able to be sent right down the deck elevator and blew them to hell just like the SBDs did at Midway
Wouldn’t that be a sight to be scene? Omg. 2000lbs of HE? Good night!
@@matrut28 a literal rain of death
Harpoons,, bombs could miss. Also if they went back in time no GPS guidance only laser most likely which aren't meant for sea battles
There's another video where they tried that--nope, can't designate from 40,000'. And since it's a moving target you have to stick around to guide the bomb all the way in--the planes could be mobbed by zeros.
The ironic part about this?
The reason why the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941, was because they were trying to destroy the American carriers while they were in port at Battleship Row. In real life, the American carriers were all north of Hawaii on shakedown cruises.
As a result, Nimitz was forced to actually change his strategy from a battleship strategy to a carrier strategy.
trust me, harpoons including and after block II+ can be programmed before launch by the firing aircraft's radar to attack a selected target, not just the biggest one it sees. The latest version can also be target and attack profile updated in flight by the secure encrypted link 16 data link. whoever programmed the harpoon in DCS hasnt a clue
Whoever programmed pretty much everything in DCS has no clue...
@@iankemp2627 Frustrating.
well, that's probably because they weren't a missile technician in the Navy
They need pilots to actually use this system.
@@josephwonderless1258 ...not over target...not in 2022!
When I was on USS Saratoga in the early 1980's we almost always had at least one fast attack sub attached to the group. I suspect that the CO of the Nimitz MIGHT have unlocked the "special" weapons as well.
Somehow the Japanese AA fire is just as accurate as a radar guided CIWS. Figure that one out.
in my understanding of the IJN strategy for Pearl, the attack was based on the element of surprise. If they saw early resistance from warplanes they could not shoot down along with any harpoons hitting their carriers, they would have aborted the attack instantly instead of driving on.
probably if they had even been spotted at all, which is why there are so many conspiracy theories about Pearl...
It wouldn't save them. The modern combat group is too fast. They can hold open the range for maximum advantage and keep them there until there are no Japanese ships.
Imagine the paper headlines in Japan... "Imperial Navy Sends Largest Ever Carrier Group to Attack US, Never to be Heard From Again"
Well, the Japanese empire was the typical totalitarian state... After the Kido Butai carriers got an upgrade to submarine in the battle of Midway, the survivors got sent to remote places and the news were never heard in Japan. It would have been absolutely devastating for the morale.
How they would have covered up something like this? An interesting though experiment...
Kido Butai CV spacing was 7km between CVs. 2 columns 7000m apart, the 3 CVs line astern in each column also 7000m apart, each with a guard DD astern (can rescue aircrew on a bad takeoff). Some CAs lead the formation in a sort of trapezoid in front 15km off the centerline, lead CA ~7km ahead with a trailing DD.
Key thing is the wasteage of the missiles (Harpoons and SM2's)
really the harpoons should probably be set to do a constant stream so by the time the initial targets are sunk, they will then be able to attack the other ships.
And the SM2s, why launch 5-6 per plane? in reality if there was a person in control and not letting aegis handle all of it would be more efficient in that regard
I also think it would've been more efficient to take out some of those ships with 2000lb bombs, either guided or unguided.
Me thinks the real Aegis would handle it more efficiently as well...
No, just no. The Aegis system just points the way, the missiles themselves are what are doing the final kill. Also you don't have anything like that under human control as there is literally no way to real time control a missile that is 50+ miles away from you when it is flying that fast.
@@Hairysteed For sure. 2000lbs paveways would be almost unstoppable antiship weapons in the 1940s.
The Harpoons would be a lot more accurate, reliable and are programable to target the carriers only. The pop up attacks would kill the carriers quickly, most of the carriers sunk at Midway were burned out by two or three hits on the deck with 500 pounders.
If I recall correctly, Pearl Harbor also had an airfield.
What this means is that it opens up for having Airforce X (Whatever nation you want) vs WW2 Japanese CV Group
I'd love to see what task manger says about the CPU and memory load for these runs.
all??
@@grimreapers ALL THE RESOURCES!
Its really amazing that ED hasnt gotten this figured out sooner.
Oh god please stop! 😂
i ve never seen anyone have such a predictable and embarrassing moment on YT...in an even more embarrassing way than this
The real problem with the IJN ships was the Long Lance torpedo. (See Battle of Savo Island and others). Very difficult for the US and Aussie navies during the early years of the war.
run it one more time with ships armed with a nuclear tipped tomahawk It would be a very short video but fun to watch.
WWII ships I would imagine have actual armour protecting their citadels. Thus making them harder to sink. It's disappointing that the Tico's don't turn to bring their rear turrets to bear. A DCS thing I imagine?
You do realise that you're going to have to play the other nations now to sate our blood lust lol.
Still that was another fun episode so thank you for that.
he's right DCS AI is stupid it should maneuver and not sit there like a duck.
Actually the Japanese destroyers and cruisers were know by their light armour. The thing that those misiles can pen the the top and superstructure of ww2 ships disabling them
I can't wait to fly the SU 33 from the Kuznetsov fleet when the mission is made...
@@dampsok That's going to be proper mental once Cap gets it up and running. The US CVBG is pretty stacked. But the Russians are just crazy hard cases. I shall look forward to hearing your aqueous of glee Damp. I'm chuckling already at the thought of it.
Just had a thought. In future have the Grim Reapers fleet sailing at 90° (I.e. Crossing the T) to the oncoming Japanese fleet. That way all ships guns come to bear and not a shell gets wasted. How does that sound (other than simple obvious)?
Or would DCS have a nervous breakdown?
@@ser43_OLDC they have more armor than the aluminum Ticonderoga.
You actually left your valued viewers to answer the phone. My faith is somewhat shaken. 😂😂😂
but, it would have just kept on ringing...
If this really happened the Zero pilots would freak out seeing other planes just explode around them. I think they would turn around and the F35's would have a hay day with them. When the anti ship missiles starting hitting the Japanese fleet they would be so confused. Also the US carrier group would a submarine with it.
Not to mention the fact that all of the US planes had 20 mm cannons to shred zeros and surface ships of the Japanese navy. I don't believe a zero would stand a chance in air to air combat vs a F-35 or F-18. 1500 mph vs 350 mph? No chance.
It's the Japanese... the kamikaze dudes, fear and death means little apparently....
Actually .I don't think it would go quite as expected . In this day and age we are all high tech. The ww2 equipment is low tech . Would the Americans even see the Japanese fighters .
The point was proven twice by the royal air force ...they British dropped nuclear bombs on America .on two separate training exercises two years apart ...they simply could not find the Vulcan bombers .
Great scene in the film Final Countdown Down when two F 14s play with a couple of Zeros
@@petemelanyevans9162 the Vulcan was a high altitude high speed subsonic aircraft. The exercises you speak of were part of Operation Skyshield and the results were definitely taken seriously. It also should be noted it happened much closer to WW2 than to our current day, in 1960 to be precise... Modern Radar systems have about as much in common with what was used in the 60ies as your smartphone has with an Abacus. The Integrated Circuit was invented a mere 2 years before that, meaning that all military technology was still using analog computers for almost a decade.
Modern radar has absolutely no problem spotting tiny ultralight aircraft (including electric, so no heat signature to speak of) used for drug smuggling, so the idea that they would somehow miss a 12m wingspan almost 3 ton metal skinned fuel guzzler is frankly ludicrous.
20:20 That's got to be one of the more accurate explosions I've seen in a game. Chunks flying off the carrier, big dust ball.
36:50 Dude probably thought he was a torpedo bomber.
Regarding the treatment of hostiles, a few points:
-US & UK sailors tended to behave with greater compassion. Most were urged/ordered to adhere to the Rules of War.
-Japanese throughout the war would strafe downed pilots in their parachutes and as they landed in the water or were in life rafts.
-By late war, most US ships ignored Japanese sailors and pilots in the water. That was considered humane as it left them to their own devices to live or die.
-Some ships crews, however, returned the Japanese's callousness and would machine gun survivors in the water.
-One notable instance was a US submarine that had torpedoed a troop transport. As it surfaced, there were dozens or hundreds of soldiers and crew in the water. The CO called available crewmen onto the deck with machine guns, submachine guns, rifles, grenades and pistols and then gave them the go-ahead to open fire.
-A British submarine or ship (can't remember which) also did this in the Pacific, although I can't remember what kind of Japanese ship they'd sunk.
-No one was charged, because the Japanese had made it clear that they didn't play by any rules, so nobody on the allied side was going to be especially overzealous in enforcing them on our side either.
A movie with Kirk Douglas called "The Final Countdown" was about a modern, (1980) aircraft carrier goes back in time just days before
the attack on Pearl Harbor. They think they can stop the attack but ultimately decided not to alter the timeline.
Could a single carrier from 1980, with knowledge of the attack have stopped it??
great fun!! thanks for this series. Keep up the great work.
This scenario has finally give me some closure on the movie "Final Countdown". The multiple hits on a Japanese carrier awesome. The first scratch top was satisfying. Love it! Nice work guys.
Closure !!! It was made up ...it's not real .how can you get closure from a fictional event ! Do you actually believe in films that much .......that would explain why America thinks it's so powerful ...though it's yet to prove the point .
@@petemelanyevans9162 i know it's fiction. In the movie they did not engage and I just wonder if they did what would be the possible outcome. Lighten up.
@@mybotoitchi5048 don't listen to them just another auntie American troll.
I thoroughly enjoyed watching these Pearl Harbor missions. Incredibly interesting and very amusing. Keep up the good work.
Love watching the Harpoon's...when they work!
Used to fit them to the Nimrod back in the 90s. Lovely piece of kit.
Glad you've got that wiped off the bucket list. Good to watch as always Sir. Thanks to all involved 👍🏻
I'm surprised we're just now getting to replacing them jn our navy.
Nagumo would have turned around a lot sooner than the AI did. His mission was important but he also knew it was going to be a long war and that the preservation of the IJN carrier force (Kido Butai) was critical to the war effort.
For how many Corsairs, SBD and TBFs it takes to sink the IJN fleet, see the Battle of Midway. (Another Nagumo battle).
I wonder how a Vietnam era carrier group would do. Especially with the Vought F-8’s. Missile capability, fast as hell and still had 4 20mm cannons to get in close
Probably better. Not enough new tech to get fucked up and plenty of old tech to carry the day.
There is usually an Fast Attack Submarine assigned to the CBG to provide protection from other submarines.
Assuming it hasn't already bitch slapped the fuck out of every single ship there. 2 Mk.48 ADCAPs should be more than enough to cripple a carrier and will definitely one shot any cruiser, destroyer, or submarine.
@@a_stone Were you a submarine sailor?
@@DOUGLAS55ish No.
@@a_stone I am a Cold War submarine veteran. I was an A-Ganger on one Boomer, USS HENRY CLAY SSBN625 and two Fast Attacks; USS Puffer SSN652 and USS LOS ANGELES SSN688. I was a plank owner on the 688. About 45 years ago , we did an exercise on the 688 to test the feasibility of using Fast Attacks as long range escorts for Carrier Battle Groups. We could have sunk all the Japanese carriers by ourselves long before they got into striking range of the US forces. Even with pre ADCAP MK48s.
@@DOUGLAS55ish Well shit. 😂
Im just someone who spends too much time reading stuff online.
One thing you didn’t take into account is that an American carrier group contains at least 1 attack submarine. Also after you are out of AGMs you can switch to Laser guided bombs, they may also have worked better than harpoons due to the altitude they can be used from avoiding the Japanese anti air.
The problem is DCS AI is cant throw laser bomb on a moving ship. But player controlled F18 can.
The Japanese navy wasn't about to lose all of those ships they couldn't replace quickly. At the first sign of attack, they would have turned around and run for home and gone into negotiation mode. The real Pearl Harbor attack was to be three waves but the unknown location of US carriers caused Admiral Nagumo to cancel the third and return home. Suicidal attacks by the IJN didn't occur until late 1944 when desperation set in. Go find the movie, "Final Countdown" filmed in 1979. It was a time travel scenario where USS Nimitz goes through a time warp to Dec 7, 1941. It starred Kirk Douglas as the US captain. This would have been a much more realistic attack. Japanese air craft would have been absolutely no match for modern planes that could out run and out gun any of the Zeros. The Japanese anti-aircraft weapons were junk too. Unable to track high speed jets. Japanese carriers were floating fire bombs too as the battle of Midway demonstrated. Damage control was poor as was fuel and weapons handling. If you look at the movie, there is a scene, at the beginning of the film, where Martin Sheen is being taken to his stateroom. I was a crewman extra walking down the passageway in the background. I also provided some still photos support for positioning angles on the flight deck and reprinting historical photos used in several scenes.
42:00 “I did hear the Japanese shot American pilots while they were parachuting which annoys me, no idea why they would do that.”
Easy, it deprives the Americans of experienced pilots. Although the US doctrine for training pilots was insanely different than the Japanese. Like if a new pilot was stationed to a carrier in 1943 he already has much more experience than a majority of Japanese air fleet.
Every pilot that was on those carriers for Pearl Harbor had experience that they had gained while fighting in China, most if not all of those pilots would be killed during Midway. The Japanese doctrine for training pilots was basically this(at least for the navy); you were trained for a certain plane, you were trained to operate on a certain carrier, and you were given the basics of air warfare nothing more. So a pilot who was trained with A6M2’s on the Kaga wouldn’t be able to translate that experience to let say the Zuikaku since each carrier, for whatever reason, had completely different operation doctrines.
Which is why you can see immediately after midway the drop in skill that the Japanese displayed. From early 1942 American pilots were up against aces, 1943 onwards American pilots were up against rookies even if the American pilots were rookies themselves.
The Nazis did it too.
Yeah it was a huge debate if it was moral to shoot parachutist when they are over their own country as not shooting them means they are back up in a plane later on. The Western top brass decided it wasnt moral to shoot them but Pilots on ALL sides sometimes did , especially as revenge if they had just shot down their mate. Over friendly territory it made no sense shooting the parachutist as they were effectively out of the war. The Japanese were known to be particularly ruthless when it came to enemy parachutists sadly , but there are reports of individual US officers giving the order to shoot parachutists during the late war over Germany to save US lives.
@@robdee81 exactly. I’m pretty sure the Japanese started doing that in China.
I can only guess that the brass on the Japanese side saw how effective it was in China and thought it would translate well when it came to the Americans.
@@KRDecade2009 the western powers brought with them the idea of the noble chivalrous knight of the sky from WW1 and looked down on such behaviour ( even though it still occasionaly happened ) Whereas the Japanese saw it as a legitimate act of war and didnt have time for western romanticism , their ancestors were Samurai and Samurai didnt show mercy to the enemy.
The way i undetstood it, the US sent thier experienced pilots home to train recruits. IJN and Luftwaffe pilots would more often fight untill they could no longer beat the odds. Pretty sure I have that right.
I can't even play the game, just watch for the entertaining Anglesness Cap displays, in every video.
Haha same 😑
36:08: Divine wind.
38:26: What are those lines coming out of the carrier's bow?
42:02: But have you heard of the time a US pilot in a parachute shot down a Zero with an M1911?
Okay ,as carrier sailor i can tell your all wrong as to carrier ops. I was on cv-43, the Coral sea . We only had 3 cats could launch and recover at the same time. During full combat ops, i wouldn't give a snowballs chance in hell for that fleet. Plus if they had combat stores ships, they could withdraw after battle and replenish.
my suggestion is that the missiles must hit the islands of the carrier first, then deal with light cruisers or any ships that has heavy AA, and then destroy the carriers and lastly everything, don't leave any trace behind
Yes it is over, what was left out was the attack submarine attached to any battle group which can easily mop up any ships that survives the harpoon attack. Without any planes being not able to land, reaming, land launch makes the end troublesome. Those planes would have easily wiped out what was left too.
Great vid Cap, as always. Cannot wait to learn the Apache from your vids.
Cap.. you do know the raid was in 2 waves right? The first wave was 183 planes.. You only need to defeat that one.
I dont know if they split it up like that but i reckon it was 3 waves but the 3rd one was cancelled
Yeh but really wanted the challenge.
The Navy's F35Cs look beautiful. Outstanding.
Awesome job reapers! If you have the picket line turn broadside, the Ticonderoga can use both guns and the Burke class can use both CIWS. Just a thought for future videos!
ooOO good point!
Thanks to computer simulations we can find out how a small group of modern fighter jets will do against a massive array of WW2 fighters. Only in a good simulation can such wild battles take place, without anyone getting hurt. To me it's the stuff of Sci-Fi.
To whom it may concern, my 3 favorite science fiction art books are :
- Wonderworks by Michael Whelan
- Great Fighter Jets of the Galaxy 1 by Tim Gibson
- Icon by Frank Frazetta
A carrier strike group usually has an attack sub in the fleet too. It could easily sink a few of the carriers.
*All* of the carriers. And absolutely none of those air-air missiles would miss.
And a Zero shooting down an F-35 having matched its speed? Give me a break. Anyway, with realistic parameters there would be zero chance for the IJN fleet. And CVNs carry nukes. Eh.
@@stevebloom5606 Listen if a bird strike can take out a modern jet so can a piece of shrapnel!
@@stevebloom5606 And a diesel powered sub can take out the most expensive and I believe the largest aircraft carrier in the world (just ask the Swedish Navy!) As stated in the first round simulation the Japanese had 35+ subs in their battle group but not modelled in the sim!
@@stevebloom5606 One of our boomers subs would of wiped out the entire Japanese fleet. Kaboom and a mushroom cloud.
Great fun!! BTW, don’t believe that IJN had radar control at this point. Worth looking into. Also, by sinking IJN carriers the command staff would be totally gone.
I think you can get 1 live player in addition, as a fellow 'completionist' The 1 Carrier VS 6 WWII carrier is a fun video.
That was a satisfying conclusion to this series! 👍
I don’t think we need to speculate what Yamamoto would have don’t after his carriers were destroyed. Just look at what he did after Midway. He lost the four carriers in his attack force. But, he still had a powerful surface fleet. The Americans were weakened and the carriers precious. The target of the operation were those carriers. He had the opportunity to take his battleships and seek a night engagement. But, he declined. He took the long view and withdrew.
In this Scenario, despite the loses of the modern American Carrier group, the objective was completely denied. The Pacific Fleet was in tact and the IJN lost 60% of its fleet carriers.
Those guns on the Americans cruisers are only for stuff too cheap to waste a missile on.
I wonder if this would have given Yamamoto and the other naval high rankers (potentially along with the Emperor) enough leverage on the army to try and negotiate a peace treaty?
The 5 inchers on the Burke's are firing much faster in game then they do in reality.
All one need know about the difference between ww2 piston-driven planes and jets are the stories of Mustang pilots and their frustration with the ME262, the first German jet fighter. It flew at 870KPH (100KPH faster than the Mustang P51C) and it was impossible for the P51 to counter it in full flight. While the Zero was a fine plane in the 30s it was no match for the 1943 P51C. The A10 Warthog while slow by jet standards it is the most survivable jet ever built and was not built for speed but for close support, maneuverability and fire power. A Zero ceiling was 9144 m, compared to 13,716 for the A10. a height from which it can launch guided munitions. So the Zero could not reach it! Don't even get me started on the F18! There is nothing beyond a lucky shot from a large caliber (long range) anti-aircraft on a WW2 warship that could touch it The Type 41 A gun's height range was 13,500m, a full 2000 meters short of ceiling for F18! It would be NO contest. These videos need to be more honest in their appraisals.
They're just using the simulation provided to them by the devs mate. They've added a few mods to try and make it more realistic but in the end it's the sim itself that's shit.
I still think its wild that DCS correctly renders an aircraft travelling supersonic and an accurate sonic boom!
What you forgot is an American carrier group usually has a couple of subs on picket duty as well!
You could buy about 83 Corsair’s with the cost of one F-18 with inflation taken into consideration
Seems to me that you would have more luck sinking the japanese fleet, if you equip the hornets with smart bombs and attack from high altitude.
You tried to win harder. Once the CV's were down your force should have reversed course and withdrawn, rearmed the Lightnings and the Hornets and gone back for the final kills. -As for your CPU issues, try running it as a night attack to see if the strategy works. Then do the stress test during daylight
If this type of entertainment should run out of public interest, Cap's new line of profession could be sports commentator. Brilliant!
Didnt think I would enjoy this but, this turned out to be a WILD battle. :-D
Haha I smiled hard soon as I saw this come up 😁! Love your videos 👊!
27:20 IJN procedure was to maneuver to elude attacking aircraft, maybe the fleet is dodging the Harpoons.
(That was one of the reasons they got their second wave off late at Midway)
I love this channel. The simulator is always broken, but I love being referred to as a "viewington".
You can keep doing this one as many times as you like. As long as you win in the end (just started watching now)
Loved it! OK, what happened to the choppers? Did they get through or get shot down? Also, can you fire cruise missiles at ships or just Harpoons?
Harpoons _are_ cruise missiles...
33.47 “you got any beer?”
After landing at pearl., you legend
Well s battle group would have at least two attack subs , and the Ai in this game kinda sucks , the jets would switch to guns after the missiles .. but I really like the attempt
Your scenario is VERY similar to the opening scenes of the time-travel novel Weapons of Choice by John Birmingham. In it, in 2021, a research ship is traveling with a U.S.-led anti-terrorism battle group. The research ship is trying to create an artificial black hole. Something goes wrong and the 2021 battle group is transported back to 1942, smack in the middle of the U.S. task force just before the Battle of Midway.
Question..would not just the jet wash from the F35 and FA/18 flying supersonic past the A6M be enough to stress the air frame ? I'd like to see this done with A1E Skyraiders. and F9F Panthers
I would like to see to find out the same. There is very little on the topic. I do remember one scene from Firefox with Clint Eastwood where he buzzed a ship and helicopter with the sonic boom.
Great battle but those boats also had tomahawks which was originally anti ship missiles
I can't help but wonder at the economic difference between these two forces, especially once you include ordnance and other consumables.
They had guided missiles in ww2. Not only AA missiles but SAMs, AT's and ATG's too. Both wire and radio guided.
The Fritz-X anti ship guided bomb is probably the most well known German precision weapon. In addition to it, there was the Ruhrstal Air-to-air missile, both radio and wire guided. The Hs-293 Anti-ship precision glide bomb. And a bunch of Surface to Air and anti tank guided rockets. They were all late war so hardly saw any use due to material shortages or being stuck in development hell.
The U.S was developing guided munitions too and had a bunch of them by the end of the war. They even had a Fox-1 (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_JB-3_Tiamat)
Get em! Im Hawaiian, and my grandmother picked up her aunt who had been blown across the street by an explosion.
Would love to see a modern tank regiment fight the Desert Fox in the African campaigns of WW2
1991 desert storm showed much newer tank groups (Iraq) against 90s era USA tanks and Iraqi tanks got smoked.
It would be a massacre. Challengers or Abrahms would be able to see and kill the Panzer III and IV from a range at which the Germans would have no chance of responding.
A young British guy going to church is the most surprising thing I,ve found out from this video . It actually blew my mind a little
I'm setting the precedent.
What about the torpedoes the Aegis class carries (2 x triple mounts), can they be used against surface ships in a pinch? EDIT- Plus, as far as the US Navy coming into gun range of the Japanese, the US can simply turn around so they remain out of gun range but still in missile range. Number 4 should be the winner!
They’ve requested you not fly? That your net contribution to the fleet is a deficit? LOL. And you’re not telling them where they can shove it?? Lol.
Ned: “Cap, what is it that you do really well?”
Cap: “I can sew.”
Dusty: “There you go. You can sew! If only we had known this earlier.”
Ned: “Then sew like the WIND!!”
(Sort of inspired by The Three Amigos movie.)
We value you as your valued viewers you are our valued entertainers
Great videos!
True Lies reference, love it. 13:50
It's the final attempt, sure Cap, sure. Love the work, thank you
lols
It’s final until the next time.
I love you've done this again
Take some peace in the thought that the original intent was to prevent the attack on Pearl Harbor, which was definitely prevented in this one...there wasn't a single Japanese plane that made it through with any offensive capability yo speak of.
Also, the ship-to-ship engagement result speaks volumes about the difference in naval combat thinking. For all that the Japanese guns were slower and probably not as accurate, their ships were all built around the premise of engaging other ships in battle, while the American ships are designed to act as a defensive picket and hold enemy ships at a safe distance until carrier-based planes or attack submarines can engage them. We don't think in terms of protracted surface engagements anymore, so modern ships don't mount the same firepower. DCS not having functional submarines actually nerfs US carrier groups massively.
Last thought, in an engagement like this, where the carrier would KNOW there was no risk of getting outflanked and attacked from behind...why keep the last few ships behind the carrier instead of moving them up as a secondary picket? Wouldn't have changed much here, except for maybe adding a few more ship-launched Harpoons, but aside from throwing up some SM2s when the front picket ran out, they served no function in this battle. Just a question of tactics, I suppose...
Always wondered if The Final Countdown if the aircraft carrier had stayed what would of happened to WWll.
We probably wouldn't have entered the war before Hitler invaded England. The same thing with this scenario, without the "Day of Infamy" Roosevelt didn't have enough public backing to get the USA directly involved.
“Things are happening” you should put that on the shirts in your merch store.
Great vid. Never mind the naval shenanigans at the end. In reality, the US carrier group would have kept well away from gun range, and modern naval guns are really only for Gunfire support on shore targets, or small ships that won't shoot back. So when the last Japanese carrier was sunk, that was game over, and the remaining Zeros would have all crashed into the sea. This is the result we were all hoping for. But I still say one attack submarine could have sunk all the carriers in 10 minutes. That would be a fun scenario to try if and when submarine combat gets coded into DCS.
Indeed, one Seawolf would absolutely wreck the IJN fleet. A couple of salvos of ADCAPs and all the capital ships would be on their way to the bottom.
Imagine their horror as they try to maneuver to avoid the torps, only to find the torps altering course to remain on an intercept path. And it's damned unlikely that the pickets would ever get a sniff of the Seawolf. Even if they did, it'd be awfully difficult to make a decent depth charge attack on a sub doing 35 knots and maneuvering.
Or have one of the Ohio-class SSGNs pull a "Macross Missile Massacre", sending in a couple dozen Tomahawks, then relocating and do it again from another location. Any leftovers/cripples could be dispatched with a few ADCAPs.
@@drtidrow oh it would be a total turkey shoot. I also follow a channel now called OnlySubs (fnarr) where an ex USN sonarman gamestreams Cold Waters and shows in precise detail how a modern sub can ruin a surface fleet’s weekend. I recommend subbing to him.
@@macnadoodle You mean Jive Turkey's new channel? I've been subbed to his stuff since '17. :-)
@@drtidrow the very same!🤗
So the reality is that the CV and cruisers would retreat once the enemy CVs were destroyed. Also, the IJN forces would not continue the attack once their CVs were knocked out, as happened at Midway. Also, the IJN did not have radar gunnery--particularly in 1941! So, from my perspective it was a full win for the USN. Well done guys, a really interesting and well presented 'what if'.
that felt good to watch thank you
please link the previous failed attempts in a pinned comment or in the description
If you want to headcanon what happened, even if the F18s couldn't rearm with harpoons for whatever reason, Pearl Harbour had to have seen what was going on, and all the Carrier group would have to do is turn and sail away from the japanese until those 8 battleships and the rest of the fleet comes out to mop up the pathetic remains of the fleet.
What would happen after this engagement is another question however, since there would be no real way to manufacture new missiles in short order in 1941. A nuclear carrier and modern jets could still be great long range strike tools, but much of their modern ordinance would irreplacable
Also the jets and pilots themselves will be irreplaceable and so is the carrier, attack sub and Escorts will apply.
Sometime you need to do the entire IJN fleet vs Kortana. We all know what the predictions the valued viewers would make.
rgr
The Burkes should still be the screen with Ticos closer to the carrier, physically IRL the Ticos might even move to block seaskimmers if thats all they could do to save the CV..., the Burkes are much more capable as ASW screen as well as being less valuable for AAW screening (despite still being awesome AAW platforms)
I was bored thank god you dropped the video
Great content, love it. Would still like to see what would a Russian force do against them.
The best answer I can come up with for what you do is "Tactical Simulations Specialist/Manager"
Nice...
*Send 4 F/A 18s over at 45K feet each loaded with ~8 2000LB Paveway laser guided bombs" *Send 4 each at each of the 6 IJN carriers and 2 battleships* Rinse and repeat as necessary. In reality the US aircraft can stay so far out of range of the IJN that it's not even a contest. Super hornet service ceiling is ~50K the Zero is 33K and takes a LOOOONG time to get up that high.
The Japanese were pretty good in maneuvering to avoid high-altitude bombing... imagine their horror to, after they pull their usual avoidance maneuver, see the bombs _change course_ to follow them.
@@drtidrow It was at that moment that they knew, they had fucked up.
You're forgetting a key thing about the Final Countdown scenario.
When Japan attacked Pearl. the carriers were not in port.
We're talking about USS Enterprise (CV-6), USS Lexington (CV-2), and USS Saratoga(CV-3).
They are in the area.
In theory, the 1941 carriers can join the modern US carrier force to defend Pearl from attack.
Historical archives would allow the modern force to rendevous and inform them on the impending attack.
The combine forces should be enough to stop the attack.
This is realistic and wouldn't be seen as cheating.
It's what I would do if in a similar situation.
Final Countdown is one of my favorite movies because I like “what if” scenarios. Especially, when related to military history.
I like your idea of including the 1941 forces but it would be tricky. The issues I see with bringing in 1941 forces are:
1. The USA needed the kick in the pants Pearl Harbor provided to get into the war. Maybe there could be way to lower the number of people killed at Pearl Harbor, but it kinda had to happen.
2. While the loss of life at Pearl Harbor was horrible, the actual damage wasn’t that serious. Most of the US battleships at Pearl Harbor were re-floated and back in action within a year. And, as Pearl Harbor and Midway proved, battleships were obsolete when pitted against carriers. In the Pacific theatre battleships required a large crew to be nothing more than a heavily armored mobile artillery platform used for pounding islands in preparation for invasion.
Even so, they were useful and it would have been bad if they got sunk in deep water at the beginning of the war.
3. I’m not sure Halsey or Newton (Saratoga was at least 2 days away) would be willing to let the attack on Pearl Harbor happen. And what would happen if there weren’t any major navy ships at Pearl Harbor on December 7th? Would the Japanese attack craft destroyed the fuel tanks? Even a nuclear powered carrier needs fuel for its aircraft and support craft.
Like I said, I enjoy what-if…so I think the best strategy would be to let the attack on Pearl Harbor happen (maybe somehow get the crew off the the Arizona because over half of all sailors killed during the attack were on the Arizona), then follow the Japanese fleet till night fell and destroy, or severely damage, the carriers and the battle ships. Then quickly locate the Japanese support fleet and destroy it. If I remember, the support ships were left about a day behind the attacking force. This tactic would not only save modern ordnance and munitions, but strand the remaining Japanese fleet without fuel and food for their long trip back to Japan.
@@CMTHFAFI agree, the Japanese fleet was well overextend committing their capital ships to attacking Pearl.
The simulation also doesn't account for radio transmisions warning Pearl of the invading fleet.
True, the attack forced the US from a neutral isolated country to a world power.
I don't think we would have many of the major tech developments we enjoy now like nuclear power, moon landings, radar, GPS, internet etc.
I would guess our tech advancements we would be on par with the early 1960s if the attack didn't happen.
and add in the fact that during the USS Enterprise deployment Halsey put his group on a war footing and to act accordingly. This would have made it much easier to combine historical fleet with the modern fleet
dont forget that the modern fleet could alert pearl which would mobilize ships as well as man anti air locations so even if zeros get by it would be far different
"USS Nimitz? Sounds like some kinda joke." - Adm. Husband Kimmel, probably
It would have taken a few hornets to buzz pearl to wake them up to the reality and get them going.
The biggest problem with this type of simulation is that attacks can't be coordinated. Human ship officers and pilots would direct their attacks to limit overlap.
F-35s, in particular, can designate individual targets for their AMRAAMs. Human pilots can spread out attacking from a wider angle to further limit double-targeting.
I have a hard time believing that destroyers and frigates would not be able to do the same. The slow-moving planes can be targeted a couple at a time from each launching ship or airplane.
It doesn't matter if the attacking planes fly past the picket line. They can still be shot down by the missiles. Just shoot them down before they get within a mile of the carrier, which shouldn't be a problem.
F-35s don't want to mingle with the attackers. Let's prevent any being accidentally targeted by missiles. But they're fast enough that they can circle back to stay out in front of the attacking wave and continue hitting them with AMRAAMs.
The Arleigh Burkes have ASW torpedos. Not sure if they can even target a surface ship. If they can, the lightweight torpedos don't do much damage against a surface ship, but they will put holes in the hull beneath the waterline.
Lastly, their guns can be used more effectively by human officers who won't waste ammo.
The Superhornets can also attack more effectively if they spread out and hit the fleet from different angles. Again, coordination helps to make sure missiles aren't wasted. The launching plane should be able to target a specific ship with the Harpoon.
Awesome!!