Critical Conversations 07: The Bonehunters Chapter 23 with Steven Erikson

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  • Опубліковано 23 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 110

  • @PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy
    @PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy 3 роки тому +28

    My thanks to you both for this marvelous discussion! The Lorn/Tavore and Bridgeburner/Bonehunter typological associations are very cool. I also appreciate the film studies chat in the middle, and the conversation about the soldier as a human being with moral choices makes me incredibly excited for The God Is Not Willing. Brilliant stuff!

  • @Johanna_reads
    @Johanna_reads 3 роки тому +16

    That scene had such incredible momentum built on the ramifications of decision-making. The writing did make me slow down and feel that intensity, and what a ride from that point on. This was one of the most high stakes scenes I've ever read in a fantasy book. I love how you two discussed the setup and very distinct, complicated character motivations. I also enjoyed the discussion on following orders. Thank you both for this fantastic discussion!

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +3

      Always great to hear from you Johanna, I am glad that you enjoyed the discussion.

  • @JohanHerrenberg
    @JohanHerrenberg 3 роки тому +8

    I found this very illuminating, A.P.!. I remember reading that chapter and feeling the historic weight of it, that I was witness to a decision with many ramifications. Regarding the connection with the dinner scene... it seems so obvious!
    Interesting: to me there are three uncharismatic but powerful women in the MBotF - Laseen, Lorn, Tavore. The first desires power too much, and loses it; the second obeys it, and gets killed; and the third refuses it, and lives...
    Thanks for this winner, Steve and A.P.! And for those tantalising hints about the Witness trilogy...

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +4

      Hi Johan, thanks for watching, I am glad that you enjoyed it. I love being able to share some of my conversations with Erikson with people.

  • @ravenbellebooks5665
    @ravenbellebooks5665 3 роки тому +2

    I love these interviews with Erikson! The scenes with Tavore and Kalam were some of my favorites of the books I've read so far! I cannot wait to see it's implications carried out until the end!

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      I am so pleased that you enjoyed it. Always good to hear from you.

  • @thebluejay1593
    @thebluejay1593 3 роки тому +4

    This was amazing. This is one of my favourite scenes of the series. But really liked the conversation towards the end of what it means to be a soldier. Gave me a lot to think about. This is why the Bonehunters is my fav book of all time. Thank you A.P for sharing this!!

  • @JayKay-wi2wc
    @JayKay-wi2wc 3 роки тому +8

    Excellent AP, that was an hour well spent listening to a really interesting conversation between you both.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      I am very glad that you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching.

  • @callum8755
    @callum8755 3 роки тому +3

    Another hour well spent:D Thank you both, I can't get enough of these videos!

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      Thank you for watching, I am glad that you enjoyed it.

  • @sethulakovic3722
    @sethulakovic3722 3 роки тому +7

    I would love to see a conversation about cinema and it's influence on Steve's writing. Was not expecting a Silverado discussion. Great video AP.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +3

      I keep meaning to discuss film with Erikson as a full discussion, and keep forgetting. I will have to bear it in mind for a future chat.

    • @sethulakovic3722
      @sethulakovic3722 3 роки тому +2

      @@ACriticalDragon Also it would be interesting if music has had any impact on the direction that Malazan takes. I know that certain sections evoke certain music cues in my head while reading. For example, Kimloc's Tanno song will alwayd sound like Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan to me.

    • @marsrock316
      @marsrock316 3 роки тому +2

      @@ACriticalDragon and don't forget that New Trek full-bore tear down... I mean, even-handed discussion.

    • @sethulakovic3722
      @sethulakovic3722 3 роки тому +2

      @@marsrock316 I have a special beer chilling and set asidefor that video.👍

  • @francoisbouchart4050
    @francoisbouchart4050 3 роки тому +1

    Perfect timing having just finished Bonehunter. Very interesting conversation of one of the most intense parts of the book. We oftentimes focus too much on the great action scenes, but it is the politics and the exploration of individual motivations that make this series great. I love trying to understand why characters behave and act the way they do; understand their decisions. While I did pick up on some of the threads, I loved your insights into the importance of Seven Cities as the bread basket of the Malazan empire and the option grabbing the Wickan plains to replace the lost food production. Thanks 🙏.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      Hi Francois, I am glad that you enjoyed it. As much as I love the grand, epic scenes, there is something about these quieter scenes that really capture my attention.

  • @gandalfthebraindoc2618
    @gandalfthebraindoc2618 10 місяців тому

    When you and Erikson are discussing film and the narrative buildup to the action sequence I looked over your right shoulder and saw the Dune book. I think the movie (which I believe came out after this interview) Does a great job in the narrative buildup to the Harkonnen invasion of Arakus. In fact when I rewatch this movie those narrative scenes are the most interesting and well done part of Dune’s adaptation. The other scene that is my favorite is the acting that Josh Brolin does early on when sparring with Paul. He says the Harkonnens are BRUTAL. The way he makes his face muscles change is a beautiful bit of acting. I have replayed those words to see his acting over and over to see what the best can do. Thanks.

  • @josephmissig5301
    @josephmissig5301 3 роки тому +1

    Another excellent video. This is one of my favorite scenes in the entire series. So wonderful to get your thoughts and Erikson's insight.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      I am very glad that you enjoyed it.
      These are a lot of fun to record.

  • @odiums_taint
    @odiums_taint 3 роки тому +2

    these discussions are always so enjoyable, thank you both!

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      Thanks for watching, it is great that so many people have enjoyed these. They are a lot of fun to do and give me an excuse to chat to Erikson about topics we don't normally discuss.

  • @awallerfamily
    @awallerfamily 3 роки тому +5

    What a great choice. I love this chapter. Definitely a fan favorite.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +2

      It is a really fascinating chapter because so much is implied. So much hinges on understanding unstated motivations and trying to imagine the positions of non-PoV characters.
      Thanks for watching.

  • @SannasBookshelf
    @SannasBookshelf 3 роки тому +1

    This was fascinating! This chapter is one that I've reread many times, since I've always felt that I don't grasp the deepest level of subtext in it. There's just so much going on, on so many levels.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому

      Hi Sanna, you are absolutely right. It is a wonderfully complex and subtle scene.

  • @JayKay-wi2wc
    @JayKay-wi2wc 3 роки тому +5

    AP I've always wondered about Laseen's people the Napan, they are described as blue and I never knew if that was literally blue. If you don't know could you ask Steve for me.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +4

      They are literally blue.

    • @Paul_van_Doleweerd
      @Paul_van_Doleweerd 3 роки тому +5

      Yep, look up methemoglobinemia.

    • @oniflrog4487
      @oniflrog4487 3 роки тому +3

      Erikson has talked about this on some Q&A, can't remember where(maybe his Reddit AMA or the TOR reread of the fallen...).
      The tone of blue is roughly the one that Lord Shiva has in some Hindu depictions.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +4

      Very tall Smurfs/Strumpf...

    • @Paul_van_Doleweerd
      @Paul_van_Doleweerd 3 роки тому +3

      An excess of colloidal silver in the bloodstream will do it too.

  • @bryson2662
    @bryson2662 3 роки тому +3

    One of my favorite chapters!

  • @alexgartland408
    @alexgartland408 3 роки тому +2

    Any bets on which trilogies AP is discussing at the very end? My guess is Mistborn Era 1 and 2 ;)

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому

      How much money is riding on this bet, and more importantly do I get a cut?

    • @alexgartland408
      @alexgartland408 3 роки тому +1

      @@ACriticalDragon We can discuss your cut when the bets come in haha
      Great video also, and really interesting to hear Steve talking about how important the meeting scene is to Witness.

    • @LocallyConstantDuck
      @LocallyConstantDuck 2 роки тому

      I would have guess First Law and Age of Madness

  • @claudiaiovanovici7569
    @claudiaiovanovici7569 3 роки тому +4

    Please let me say how I envy both of you, wearing long sleeved stuff. It's been so hot here for so long, that if removing my own skin would provide some relief from the heat, I might consider it :)))
    There was something you said about Laseen not having earned the loyalty of Tavore and Kalam. And it sent me to a dialogue in Gardens of the Moon where Topper tells Paran that the empress expects obedience and demands loyalty, to which Paran replies by asking shouldn't be the other way? And I remember thinking that apparently the difference between them is insignificant, and yet it marked something right there and then about Laseen's style of leadership. Which then comes to fruition in the scene in the Bonehunters.
    Also, I am going to act publicly dumb and say that I don't quite see the parallel between the dinner scene in Gardens of the Moon and the scene in The Bonehunters, other than a bunch of powerful people coming together to discuss things, and the possibility of things going bad between them as a result. And since both you and Steve are saying that there is a symmetry there, could you please spell it out for me in unambiguous terms, with nothing left in subtext? :D Because it seems to me that Tavore did choose the Empire in her choice, even she did not choose Laseen's rule. Which brings me back again to an idea that Steve planted in GOTM, where Paran wonders is Laseen is the Empire and the Empire is Laseen.
    And there is another point that I wanted to make with regards to Kalam's choice. True, the people neeeded to have someone thrown at them. Why not throw Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom? There was already a suspicion that they were traitors. Why not get rid of them, tell the people that indeed, they had been the traitors, spin the story of the heroism of the Wickans, and secure Laseen's throne? Unless Laseen really could not have done without the Wickan planes, and she would have sacrificed the Wickans no matter what. In which case, indeed, they could not have thrown Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom to the crowds. Did the fate of her empire really hinge on the food they could have grown on those planes to the point she would not only sacrifice the Wickans but also risk her life and her rule to have it?

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      Hi Claudia... I might have to make a full video on this as it would take a long time to type everything out... and I am lazy.
      But thanks for watching, sorry you are suffering through unbearable weather.

  • @bravingbrivatebrian
    @bravingbrivatebrian Рік тому +1

    Steve is wearing a hat! One of life's simple pleasures

  • @Stelfc
    @Stelfc 3 роки тому +2

    I really enjoyed this AP maybe my favourite one of your videos so far :) you and Steven complement each so well and we always get so much insight on the story and characters.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      Glad you enjoyed it, Stephen. I always have a lot of fun chatting with Erikson, he is a very smart and talented guy, so I am always learning new things every time we chat.

  • @paulharvey5505
    @paulharvey5505 Рік тому

    Another excellent video, really enjoy these.

  • @Paul_van_Doleweerd
    @Paul_van_Doleweerd 3 роки тому +4

    "Flicker mystery" grabbed *my* *and* *Niflrog's* attention...

    • @oniflrog4487
      @oniflrog4487 3 роки тому +5

      *Our
      there, fixed it ;-)

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +5

      No comment at this stage. 🤐

    • @Paul_van_Doleweerd
      @Paul_van_Doleweerd 3 роки тому +4

      @@ACriticalDragon Well that's just peachy...

    • @PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy
      @PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy 3 роки тому +5

      @@Paul_van_Doleweerd Peachybuns! 🤣🤣🤣

    • @Paul_van_Doleweerd
      @Paul_van_Doleweerd 3 роки тому +4

      @@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Careful, I don't know if SE has a name for your character yet...
      Phillipe D'Asphixier perhaps...
      😂😂

  • @dadefectivedunyain
    @dadefectivedunyain 3 роки тому +1

    Fantastic stuff! Would you ever consider doing a Glen Cook/ The Black company dissection?

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      I haven't read the Black Company in a few years. Once I am done with Malazan I have a few different long and short series that I am considering for the next project. The Black Company might very well end up in that list.

    • @dadefectivedunyain
      @dadefectivedunyain 3 роки тому

      Cool! I understand! Thnx for answering

  • @oniflrog4487
    @oniflrog4487 3 роки тому +4

    Oh man! This was a great chat.
    Can't wait for that spicy The God is Not Willing spoilery interview with questions submitted by the loyal followers of this channel.
    ;-)

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +2

      I am sure that we will get around to TGinW at some point.

  • @suryanshsingh3788
    @suryanshsingh3788 3 роки тому +3

    Hey AP, did you tell him about my message

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +4

      Hi Suryansh, I did pass on your message and questions. Erikson is very cagey about what might or might not be in the later books of the Witness trilogy. Sorry I can't tell you more.

  • @josephk5654
    @josephk5654 3 роки тому +5

    The movie story tie-ins turns the worm in my gut, why can't amazon just throw a half billion dollars at a Garden's adaptation?

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +2

      I would love a Malazan adaptation. I think it could produce a fascinating television show.

    • @josephk5654
      @josephk5654 3 роки тому +1

      @@ACriticalDragon Like GOT, except better narratives, more developed and interesting characters, more diverse (in all respects) and less nihilistic.

    • @marsrock316
      @marsrock316 3 роки тому

      @@josephk5654 I wonder if the WoT and new LotR productions have to succeed or fail for a Malazan series to get a shot. On the one hand, the Powers That Be say, "Wow, viewers have an appetite for this stuff. What other epic is out there that's not been adapted yet." On the other, they say, "Well, we tried with these. What else is there that may succeed."

    • @josephk5654
      @josephk5654 3 роки тому +1

      @@marsrock316 My guess would be succeed, so they're looking for more "of the same" from their perspective.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      They want the same but different.
      When GoT first launched there were a few other shows that tried, but they focused on the sex and violence and generally had relatively cheap looking production effects, costumes, etc.
      So even if there is an appetite for adaptation, it is not always a given that the teams involved will want to invest the money unless they believe it will be a sure thing.

  • @bryson2662
    @bryson2662 3 роки тому +2

    That was fantastic, some great food for thought and gave me a few movies to watch

  • @ZYXPQI
    @ZYXPQI 2 роки тому +1

    How the fuck have I missed this channel for so long? Holy shit this was a good conversation mate

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  2 роки тому +1

      I am glad that you found the channel and enjoyed the conversation. I hope that you enjoy a few of the other videos.

    • @ZYXPQI
      @ZYXPQI 2 роки тому

      @@ACriticalDragon Don't worry, I'll be sure to raid through your videos :) Thanks again

  • @robpaul7544
    @robpaul7544 3 роки тому +3

    Fascinating conversation. Vital for the books, this scene, but the real world references and observations were at least as important. Not to mention the hints for upcoming books 😋
    It's fun to compare the three who end up on the throne. Kellanved never had true interest in or dedication to ruling an empire - it was a means to an end. Yet he may well have been the most capable and/or benevolent.
    Laseen felt she was forced to, and had the dedication but not the capability.
    Mallick Rel is both capable and dedicated, he _wants_ it. Which might make him the worst candidate in the long run.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому +1

      Hi Rob, I hadn't thought of framing it that way, so that is an interesting angle that I will have to think about. Thanks for that.

  • @ladrac198
    @ladrac198 2 роки тому

    I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the trilogy AP read was the second Mistborn trilogy?

  • @omaramat4813
    @omaramat4813 3 роки тому

    Silverado, the seven samurai, the magnificent seven, never so few. All great

  • @EricMcLuen
    @EricMcLuen 3 роки тому +1

    Did you edit out the obligatory insult usually found at the start the video?
    Wow, Silverado and Big Red One, both excellent movies. Yes Mark Hamill is in the latter. And the scene in the tank is so absurd it is comical.

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому

      I hadn't realised the insults had become such regular things. He is a very funny man.

  • @lonewulfyamcha
    @lonewulfyamcha 3 роки тому +1

    There are two types of leadership; those who are for 'Pineapple on pizza' and those who are against 'Pineapple on pizza.'

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  3 роки тому

      I am all for black olives on pizza... I walk my own path.

  • @christopherwatson1163
    @christopherwatson1163 Рік тому

    Open Range! ..you know.

  • @ronb2008
    @ronb2008 11 місяців тому

    Is it just me or does Erikson seem like he wants nothing to do with this conversation in the beginning?

    • @ACriticalDragon
      @ACriticalDragon  11 місяців тому

      He hadn't had his morning coffee. Time zones can really mess up recorded chats.