My thanks to you both for this marvelous discussion! The Lorn/Tavore and Bridgeburner/Bonehunter typological associations are very cool. I also appreciate the film studies chat in the middle, and the conversation about the soldier as a human being with moral choices makes me incredibly excited for The God Is Not Willing. Brilliant stuff!
That scene had such incredible momentum built on the ramifications of decision-making. The writing did make me slow down and feel that intensity, and what a ride from that point on. This was one of the most high stakes scenes I've ever read in a fantasy book. I love how you two discussed the setup and very distinct, complicated character motivations. I also enjoyed the discussion on following orders. Thank you both for this fantastic discussion!
I found this very illuminating, A.P.!. I remember reading that chapter and feeling the historic weight of it, that I was witness to a decision with many ramifications. Regarding the connection with the dinner scene... it seems so obvious! Interesting: to me there are three uncharismatic but powerful women in the MBotF - Laseen, Lorn, Tavore. The first desires power too much, and loses it; the second obeys it, and gets killed; and the third refuses it, and lives... Thanks for this winner, Steve and A.P.! And for those tantalising hints about the Witness trilogy...
I love these interviews with Erikson! The scenes with Tavore and Kalam were some of my favorites of the books I've read so far! I cannot wait to see it's implications carried out until the end!
This was amazing. This is one of my favourite scenes of the series. But really liked the conversation towards the end of what it means to be a soldier. Gave me a lot to think about. This is why the Bonehunters is my fav book of all time. Thank you A.P for sharing this!!
@@ACriticalDragon Also it would be interesting if music has had any impact on the direction that Malazan takes. I know that certain sections evoke certain music cues in my head while reading. For example, Kimloc's Tanno song will alwayd sound like Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan to me.
Perfect timing having just finished Bonehunter. Very interesting conversation of one of the most intense parts of the book. We oftentimes focus too much on the great action scenes, but it is the politics and the exploration of individual motivations that make this series great. I love trying to understand why characters behave and act the way they do; understand their decisions. While I did pick up on some of the threads, I loved your insights into the importance of Seven Cities as the bread basket of the Malazan empire and the option grabbing the Wickan plains to replace the lost food production. Thanks 🙏.
Hi Francois, I am glad that you enjoyed it. As much as I love the grand, epic scenes, there is something about these quieter scenes that really capture my attention.
When you and Erikson are discussing film and the narrative buildup to the action sequence I looked over your right shoulder and saw the Dune book. I think the movie (which I believe came out after this interview) Does a great job in the narrative buildup to the Harkonnen invasion of Arakus. In fact when I rewatch this movie those narrative scenes are the most interesting and well done part of Dune’s adaptation. The other scene that is my favorite is the acting that Josh Brolin does early on when sparring with Paul. He says the Harkonnens are BRUTAL. The way he makes his face muscles change is a beautiful bit of acting. I have replayed those words to see his acting over and over to see what the best can do. Thanks.
Thanks for watching, it is great that so many people have enjoyed these. They are a lot of fun to do and give me an excuse to chat to Erikson about topics we don't normally discuss.
It is a really fascinating chapter because so much is implied. So much hinges on understanding unstated motivations and trying to imagine the positions of non-PoV characters. Thanks for watching.
This was fascinating! This chapter is one that I've reread many times, since I've always felt that I don't grasp the deepest level of subtext in it. There's just so much going on, on so many levels.
AP I've always wondered about Laseen's people the Napan, they are described as blue and I never knew if that was literally blue. If you don't know could you ask Steve for me.
Erikson has talked about this on some Q&A, can't remember where(maybe his Reddit AMA or the TOR reread of the fallen...). The tone of blue is roughly the one that Lord Shiva has in some Hindu depictions.
@@ACriticalDragon We can discuss your cut when the bets come in haha Great video also, and really interesting to hear Steve talking about how important the meeting scene is to Witness.
Please let me say how I envy both of you, wearing long sleeved stuff. It's been so hot here for so long, that if removing my own skin would provide some relief from the heat, I might consider it :))) There was something you said about Laseen not having earned the loyalty of Tavore and Kalam. And it sent me to a dialogue in Gardens of the Moon where Topper tells Paran that the empress expects obedience and demands loyalty, to which Paran replies by asking shouldn't be the other way? And I remember thinking that apparently the difference between them is insignificant, and yet it marked something right there and then about Laseen's style of leadership. Which then comes to fruition in the scene in the Bonehunters. Also, I am going to act publicly dumb and say that I don't quite see the parallel between the dinner scene in Gardens of the Moon and the scene in The Bonehunters, other than a bunch of powerful people coming together to discuss things, and the possibility of things going bad between them as a result. And since both you and Steve are saying that there is a symmetry there, could you please spell it out for me in unambiguous terms, with nothing left in subtext? :D Because it seems to me that Tavore did choose the Empire in her choice, even she did not choose Laseen's rule. Which brings me back again to an idea that Steve planted in GOTM, where Paran wonders is Laseen is the Empire and the Empire is Laseen. And there is another point that I wanted to make with regards to Kalam's choice. True, the people neeeded to have someone thrown at them. Why not throw Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom? There was already a suspicion that they were traitors. Why not get rid of them, tell the people that indeed, they had been the traitors, spin the story of the heroism of the Wickans, and secure Laseen's throne? Unless Laseen really could not have done without the Wickan planes, and she would have sacrificed the Wickans no matter what. In which case, indeed, they could not have thrown Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom to the crowds. Did the fate of her empire really hinge on the food they could have grown on those planes to the point she would not only sacrifice the Wickans but also risk her life and her rule to have it?
Hi Claudia... I might have to make a full video on this as it would take a long time to type everything out... and I am lazy. But thanks for watching, sorry you are suffering through unbearable weather.
I really enjoyed this AP maybe my favourite one of your videos so far :) you and Steven complement each so well and we always get so much insight on the story and characters.
Glad you enjoyed it, Stephen. I always have a lot of fun chatting with Erikson, he is a very smart and talented guy, so I am always learning new things every time we chat.
I haven't read the Black Company in a few years. Once I am done with Malazan I have a few different long and short series that I am considering for the next project. The Black Company might very well end up in that list.
Oh man! This was a great chat. Can't wait for that spicy The God is Not Willing spoilery interview with questions submitted by the loyal followers of this channel. ;-)
Hi Suryansh, I did pass on your message and questions. Erikson is very cagey about what might or might not be in the later books of the Witness trilogy. Sorry I can't tell you more.
@@josephk5654 I wonder if the WoT and new LotR productions have to succeed or fail for a Malazan series to get a shot. On the one hand, the Powers That Be say, "Wow, viewers have an appetite for this stuff. What other epic is out there that's not been adapted yet." On the other, they say, "Well, we tried with these. What else is there that may succeed."
They want the same but different. When GoT first launched there were a few other shows that tried, but they focused on the sex and violence and generally had relatively cheap looking production effects, costumes, etc. So even if there is an appetite for adaptation, it is not always a given that the teams involved will want to invest the money unless they believe it will be a sure thing.
Fascinating conversation. Vital for the books, this scene, but the real world references and observations were at least as important. Not to mention the hints for upcoming books 😋 It's fun to compare the three who end up on the throne. Kellanved never had true interest in or dedication to ruling an empire - it was a means to an end. Yet he may well have been the most capable and/or benevolent. Laseen felt she was forced to, and had the dedication but not the capability. Mallick Rel is both capable and dedicated, he _wants_ it. Which might make him the worst candidate in the long run.
Did you edit out the obligatory insult usually found at the start the video? Wow, Silverado and Big Red One, both excellent movies. Yes Mark Hamill is in the latter. And the scene in the tank is so absurd it is comical.
My thanks to you both for this marvelous discussion! The Lorn/Tavore and Bridgeburner/Bonehunter typological associations are very cool. I also appreciate the film studies chat in the middle, and the conversation about the soldier as a human being with moral choices makes me incredibly excited for The God Is Not Willing. Brilliant stuff!
Glad you enjoyed it Philip.
That scene had such incredible momentum built on the ramifications of decision-making. The writing did make me slow down and feel that intensity, and what a ride from that point on. This was one of the most high stakes scenes I've ever read in a fantasy book. I love how you two discussed the setup and very distinct, complicated character motivations. I also enjoyed the discussion on following orders. Thank you both for this fantastic discussion!
Always great to hear from you Johanna, I am glad that you enjoyed the discussion.
I found this very illuminating, A.P.!. I remember reading that chapter and feeling the historic weight of it, that I was witness to a decision with many ramifications. Regarding the connection with the dinner scene... it seems so obvious!
Interesting: to me there are three uncharismatic but powerful women in the MBotF - Laseen, Lorn, Tavore. The first desires power too much, and loses it; the second obeys it, and gets killed; and the third refuses it, and lives...
Thanks for this winner, Steve and A.P.! And for those tantalising hints about the Witness trilogy...
Hi Johan, thanks for watching, I am glad that you enjoyed it. I love being able to share some of my conversations with Erikson with people.
I love these interviews with Erikson! The scenes with Tavore and Kalam were some of my favorites of the books I've read so far! I cannot wait to see it's implications carried out until the end!
I am so pleased that you enjoyed it. Always good to hear from you.
This was amazing. This is one of my favourite scenes of the series. But really liked the conversation towards the end of what it means to be a soldier. Gave me a lot to think about. This is why the Bonehunters is my fav book of all time. Thank you A.P for sharing this!!
Hi Jay, I am glad that you enjoyed it.
Excellent AP, that was an hour well spent listening to a really interesting conversation between you both.
I am very glad that you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching.
Another hour well spent:D Thank you both, I can't get enough of these videos!
Thank you for watching, I am glad that you enjoyed it.
I would love to see a conversation about cinema and it's influence on Steve's writing. Was not expecting a Silverado discussion. Great video AP.
I keep meaning to discuss film with Erikson as a full discussion, and keep forgetting. I will have to bear it in mind for a future chat.
@@ACriticalDragon Also it would be interesting if music has had any impact on the direction that Malazan takes. I know that certain sections evoke certain music cues in my head while reading. For example, Kimloc's Tanno song will alwayd sound like Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan to me.
@@ACriticalDragon and don't forget that New Trek full-bore tear down... I mean, even-handed discussion.
@@marsrock316 I have a special beer chilling and set asidefor that video.👍
Perfect timing having just finished Bonehunter. Very interesting conversation of one of the most intense parts of the book. We oftentimes focus too much on the great action scenes, but it is the politics and the exploration of individual motivations that make this series great. I love trying to understand why characters behave and act the way they do; understand their decisions. While I did pick up on some of the threads, I loved your insights into the importance of Seven Cities as the bread basket of the Malazan empire and the option grabbing the Wickan plains to replace the lost food production. Thanks 🙏.
Hi Francois, I am glad that you enjoyed it. As much as I love the grand, epic scenes, there is something about these quieter scenes that really capture my attention.
When you and Erikson are discussing film and the narrative buildup to the action sequence I looked over your right shoulder and saw the Dune book. I think the movie (which I believe came out after this interview) Does a great job in the narrative buildup to the Harkonnen invasion of Arakus. In fact when I rewatch this movie those narrative scenes are the most interesting and well done part of Dune’s adaptation. The other scene that is my favorite is the acting that Josh Brolin does early on when sparring with Paul. He says the Harkonnens are BRUTAL. The way he makes his face muscles change is a beautiful bit of acting. I have replayed those words to see his acting over and over to see what the best can do. Thanks.
Another excellent video. This is one of my favorite scenes in the entire series. So wonderful to get your thoughts and Erikson's insight.
I am very glad that you enjoyed it.
These are a lot of fun to record.
these discussions are always so enjoyable, thank you both!
Thanks for watching, it is great that so many people have enjoyed these. They are a lot of fun to do and give me an excuse to chat to Erikson about topics we don't normally discuss.
What a great choice. I love this chapter. Definitely a fan favorite.
It is a really fascinating chapter because so much is implied. So much hinges on understanding unstated motivations and trying to imagine the positions of non-PoV characters.
Thanks for watching.
This was fascinating! This chapter is one that I've reread many times, since I've always felt that I don't grasp the deepest level of subtext in it. There's just so much going on, on so many levels.
Hi Sanna, you are absolutely right. It is a wonderfully complex and subtle scene.
AP I've always wondered about Laseen's people the Napan, they are described as blue and I never knew if that was literally blue. If you don't know could you ask Steve for me.
They are literally blue.
Yep, look up methemoglobinemia.
Erikson has talked about this on some Q&A, can't remember where(maybe his Reddit AMA or the TOR reread of the fallen...).
The tone of blue is roughly the one that Lord Shiva has in some Hindu depictions.
Very tall Smurfs/Strumpf...
An excess of colloidal silver in the bloodstream will do it too.
One of my favorite chapters!
Any bets on which trilogies AP is discussing at the very end? My guess is Mistborn Era 1 and 2 ;)
How much money is riding on this bet, and more importantly do I get a cut?
@@ACriticalDragon We can discuss your cut when the bets come in haha
Great video also, and really interesting to hear Steve talking about how important the meeting scene is to Witness.
I would have guess First Law and Age of Madness
Please let me say how I envy both of you, wearing long sleeved stuff. It's been so hot here for so long, that if removing my own skin would provide some relief from the heat, I might consider it :)))
There was something you said about Laseen not having earned the loyalty of Tavore and Kalam. And it sent me to a dialogue in Gardens of the Moon where Topper tells Paran that the empress expects obedience and demands loyalty, to which Paran replies by asking shouldn't be the other way? And I remember thinking that apparently the difference between them is insignificant, and yet it marked something right there and then about Laseen's style of leadership. Which then comes to fruition in the scene in the Bonehunters.
Also, I am going to act publicly dumb and say that I don't quite see the parallel between the dinner scene in Gardens of the Moon and the scene in The Bonehunters, other than a bunch of powerful people coming together to discuss things, and the possibility of things going bad between them as a result. And since both you and Steve are saying that there is a symmetry there, could you please spell it out for me in unambiguous terms, with nothing left in subtext? :D Because it seems to me that Tavore did choose the Empire in her choice, even she did not choose Laseen's rule. Which brings me back again to an idea that Steve planted in GOTM, where Paran wonders is Laseen is the Empire and the Empire is Laseen.
And there is another point that I wanted to make with regards to Kalam's choice. True, the people neeeded to have someone thrown at them. Why not throw Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom? There was already a suspicion that they were traitors. Why not get rid of them, tell the people that indeed, they had been the traitors, spin the story of the heroism of the Wickans, and secure Laseen's throne? Unless Laseen really could not have done without the Wickan planes, and she would have sacrificed the Wickans no matter what. In which case, indeed, they could not have thrown Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom to the crowds. Did the fate of her empire really hinge on the food they could have grown on those planes to the point she would not only sacrifice the Wickans but also risk her life and her rule to have it?
Hi Claudia... I might have to make a full video on this as it would take a long time to type everything out... and I am lazy.
But thanks for watching, sorry you are suffering through unbearable weather.
Steve is wearing a hat! One of life's simple pleasures
I really enjoyed this AP maybe my favourite one of your videos so far :) you and Steven complement each so well and we always get so much insight on the story and characters.
Glad you enjoyed it, Stephen. I always have a lot of fun chatting with Erikson, he is a very smart and talented guy, so I am always learning new things every time we chat.
Another excellent video, really enjoy these.
Thank you. I am glad that you enjoyed them.
"Flicker mystery" grabbed *my* *and* *Niflrog's* attention...
*Our
there, fixed it ;-)
No comment at this stage. 🤐
@@ACriticalDragon Well that's just peachy...
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd Peachybuns! 🤣🤣🤣
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Careful, I don't know if SE has a name for your character yet...
Phillipe D'Asphixier perhaps...
😂😂
Fantastic stuff! Would you ever consider doing a Glen Cook/ The Black company dissection?
I haven't read the Black Company in a few years. Once I am done with Malazan I have a few different long and short series that I am considering for the next project. The Black Company might very well end up in that list.
Cool! I understand! Thnx for answering
Oh man! This was a great chat.
Can't wait for that spicy The God is Not Willing spoilery interview with questions submitted by the loyal followers of this channel.
;-)
I am sure that we will get around to TGinW at some point.
Hey AP, did you tell him about my message
Hi Suryansh, I did pass on your message and questions. Erikson is very cagey about what might or might not be in the later books of the Witness trilogy. Sorry I can't tell you more.
The movie story tie-ins turns the worm in my gut, why can't amazon just throw a half billion dollars at a Garden's adaptation?
I would love a Malazan adaptation. I think it could produce a fascinating television show.
@@ACriticalDragon Like GOT, except better narratives, more developed and interesting characters, more diverse (in all respects) and less nihilistic.
@@josephk5654 I wonder if the WoT and new LotR productions have to succeed or fail for a Malazan series to get a shot. On the one hand, the Powers That Be say, "Wow, viewers have an appetite for this stuff. What other epic is out there that's not been adapted yet." On the other, they say, "Well, we tried with these. What else is there that may succeed."
@@marsrock316 My guess would be succeed, so they're looking for more "of the same" from their perspective.
They want the same but different.
When GoT first launched there were a few other shows that tried, but they focused on the sex and violence and generally had relatively cheap looking production effects, costumes, etc.
So even if there is an appetite for adaptation, it is not always a given that the teams involved will want to invest the money unless they believe it will be a sure thing.
That was fantastic, some great food for thought and gave me a few movies to watch
I am glad that you enjoyed it.
How the fuck have I missed this channel for so long? Holy shit this was a good conversation mate
I am glad that you found the channel and enjoyed the conversation. I hope that you enjoy a few of the other videos.
@@ACriticalDragon Don't worry, I'll be sure to raid through your videos :) Thanks again
Fascinating conversation. Vital for the books, this scene, but the real world references and observations were at least as important. Not to mention the hints for upcoming books 😋
It's fun to compare the three who end up on the throne. Kellanved never had true interest in or dedication to ruling an empire - it was a means to an end. Yet he may well have been the most capable and/or benevolent.
Laseen felt she was forced to, and had the dedication but not the capability.
Mallick Rel is both capable and dedicated, he _wants_ it. Which might make him the worst candidate in the long run.
Hi Rob, I hadn't thought of framing it that way, so that is an interesting angle that I will have to think about. Thanks for that.
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the trilogy AP read was the second Mistborn trilogy?
Nope. I haven't read that.
Silverado, the seven samurai, the magnificent seven, never so few. All great
Did you edit out the obligatory insult usually found at the start the video?
Wow, Silverado and Big Red One, both excellent movies. Yes Mark Hamill is in the latter. And the scene in the tank is so absurd it is comical.
I hadn't realised the insults had become such regular things. He is a very funny man.
There are two types of leadership; those who are for 'Pineapple on pizza' and those who are against 'Pineapple on pizza.'
I am all for black olives on pizza... I walk my own path.
Open Range! ..you know.
Is it just me or does Erikson seem like he wants nothing to do with this conversation in the beginning?
He hadn't had his morning coffee. Time zones can really mess up recorded chats.