Another discussion I thoroughly enjoyed! Reaper’s Gale packs such a powerful punch, and chatting about it with you helped me understand why. Thank you, my friend. I’m excited for part two of the spoilers!
There is so much to explore in these books. The Red Mask storyline had a deep impact on me. AP, you took the words right out of my mouth when you referenced Grey Owl. Red Mask appropriates the Awl culture with the support of another powerful culture; Red Mask’s guardians are really a metaphor for English society praising and celebrating the efforts of Grey Owl. When Grey Owl was revealed to be a “fraud”, that same society turned on him. Red Mask is also the “white man” who wants to save the “natives”; the heroic figure who single handedly saves the down trotted. The fallacy of the “white man” that they can be both conqueror and saviour of a culture. Can’t wait for Part 2 and your insights into the multiple facets of Hood; he is not just the reaper of souls…
Just finished today. I think Redmask more suffered from complete delusion rather than cowardice. We get his POV right before his death and he thought the battle was going swimmingly; said something to the effect that the Awl on the platform were moments away from breaking the Letherri lines. Like you suggested though I think he was pretty clearly an inversion of the chosen one trope. Right up until his death I was thinking that surely he had one more trick up his sleeve. Especially since Toc was with him, Erikson wouldn’t make Toc suffer more than he already has.. 😭
@@ACriticalDragon then I need to get married in Canada as soon as possible. Got to get those naturalized citizen rights to combat the bad personal choices.
37:00 it was very tragic and macabre. Hedge blew Emroth I think was her name up and he later sees part of her blown up body and a leg that found itself in the refugium was blood and flesh and that's when Hedge realized and wept for her
I completely agree. If she had journeyed just a little further then she may have had the same revelatory experience that Onrack had. So it frames the whole thing as tragic and a missed opportunity.
"I know writers who use subtext, and they're all cowards!" - Garth Marenghi, "Garth Marenghi's Darkplace" (not my personal opnion, but too hilarious to not mention!)
A lot of great moments in RG. One you didn't mention: Abasard and his sister. SE at his finest, demonstrating his ability to draw you deeply into a new character after only a handful of pages. So good.
That is such a powerful and understated moment in the series. One of the quotations that we like to use is the whole 'Children are dying' and here we see it in such stark detail. It is a great moment, thank you for reminding me.
Brilliant discussion! I love the deep exploration of how social and human rights issues are addressed in multiple complex ways. Udinaas and Seren Pedac are such fascinating characters, and their interactions highlighted so much that was shown to us in previous books while adding even more intensity in this one. I loved the quest journey and various motivations. So many tragic ends or diverging paths for characters who had other ambitions or hopes in mind. Thank you both! I’m looking forward to Part 2!
I am so pleased that you enjoyed it, Johanna. There are so many big questions asked by the books, and so few ready answers. The movement between macros scale and micro scale considerations endlessly fascinates me.
“At some point, no matter how repressive the regime, the citizenry will come to comprehend the vast power in their hands. The destitute, the Indebted, the beleaguered middle classes; in short, the myriad victims. Control was sleight of hand trickery, and against a hundred thousand defiant citizens it stood no real chance. All at once, the game was up.” (p.874) - despatches from Melbourne, Australia.
Just finished Reapers Gale 2 days ago and it is my new favorite Malazan, Deadhouse Gates was holding that slot for me until now, and I have a renewed excitement for this series. I’m reading with Mikes crew but she want to go straight into Toll the Hounds right NOW
Always great to see you two talk things Malazan. RG can be very dark indeed, but Erikson is very objective. You get the perspectives of both victim and perpetrator, where the victim has agency and the perpetrator is not mysteriously monstrous, but all too human. Looking forward to Part 2!
Hi Johan, I am glad that you enjoyed it. Seeing inside the monster and realising that the monster is all too human is one of the most difficult things to read for me. It is so easy to think that evil is only perpetrated by monsters when it is all too common that the monstrosity is actually far too human.
Always read the epigraphs. You will be very surprised what suddenly becomes obvious when you pay attention to the epigraphs. But more to the point you are only learning this now??? Have my other videos had no impact? Woe is me. Woe, I tell you.
1/3 is a start. I think it has to do with some of what we discussed before. Thinking about the literal meanings, and then applying that to more generalised or abstract patterns. If you pick out a couple of epigraphs I can always do a video about some of the ones that you don't understand.
The story about the trapper made me think of a certain character from The God is not Willing. Really enjoy it when you two get together for these spoiler chats. Thanks again for them.
27:00 come on I also didn't see Kettle being the vessel for the Azath. I mean I knew she has a bad end coming for her but that Silchas just takes the Finnest dagger and by killing Kettle is summoning a new Azath. Like I mean it doesn't surprise cuz in Malazan things are very weird and magical but I also didn't expect it and was like yeah I know exactly what will happen. Prof Chase you aren't the only one surprised by those events
lol right?? I WAS SHOOK when AP was all "you didn't see that coming????" Like bruh. We didn't know the details of the bargain Silchas made with the dying Azath in Letheras. I also don't think we've known explicitly that Finnests can turn into Azaths... ??? I'm not sure about that one, cause in GoTM, an acorn Finnest did turn into an Azath. But I don't remember that being explictly discussed to where we should know "any Finnest can or will grow a new Azath" lol. And even if we did -- what triggers it? Even if a ton of hints were dropped I just don't see how we could have specifically guessed what happened. Maybe I missed something *shrug* Anyway I just finished Reaper's Gale and am starting TTH so if anyone replies, don't spoil if you have corrections to what I said above, but they're revealed after RG!
Oh how I wish I could have started to read this sooner to participate in these discussions. For me when Redmask was revealed as Letharii I personally thought this was like a clandestine mission to further advance the Letharii Empire that by drawing Edur forces at the sacrifice of your own you'd kill the remaining Awl and open yourself up to still contested grasslands with the others, but the others would have also seen Redmask and a legend die. I suppose it'd be a one off Letharii to clothes themselves in the mystisim, but How do the K'Chain play into this by being tricked?! Anyway! My first read.
That was good as always. As for the Red Mask story we have to acknowledge that we get most of it from the ppl around him. And Toc need some more discussion not just a mention since he's part of the saddest part of this book. And yes I'm up for more malazan talk the more the merrier.
I must add that as a kid if you asked me what attract me to reading and fantasy book in particular I would have said it's a good place to run to since it's not our world. Later when I grew up I found out that it's not the escape I was looking for but the different background where I (or the author) can tackle complex ideas without the real world to weight it down and then I found Malazan and that is partly why it's probably at the top of the list of my favorite books.
This was a wonderfully insightful discussion and I can't wait for Part 2, as the Malazan thread in RG was one of my favorite's in the whole series! A.P., if you were the official editor of Reaper's Gale, would you have recommended the narrative be tightened up by just a hair in the Letheras portion? I noticed you and Philip didn't mention my least favorite strand of the book even once in this chat, involving the Liberty Consign of Merchants and POV characters like Rautos Hivanar and Venitt Sathad. I fear that the inclusion of this supremely inimpactful strand greatly lessened my overall enjoyment of what was otherwise an incredible and powerful book, and I wonder if you had edited it if it could have been avoided.
and I know you like seeing criticism with some reasoning behind it, so I'll just extend my thoughts here: I feel like Erikson accomplished the same themes in the Letheras sphere more powerfully with the Patriotists thread and those characters, and so the Liberty Consign thread just felt redundant, not to mention its events were less central to the book's main plot elements as well. When a book has so many POVs and plot threads already to keep track of, one redundant one feels like one too many.
This was actually going to come up in part 2 because it was about the Malazans, and the denoument in Lether, which is where I feel the Liberty Consign element fits in discussion. But to answer your question, I don't think that I would have suggested excising that plot thread and I wouldn't call it redundant. It is intrinsically bound up in the relationship between the Letherii political, commercial, military web. If you noticed, we barely spoke about a lot of the Patriotist story elements, mostly because there is a huge amount happening in this novel and we were trying to hit as many different high aspects that we could with at least some attempt at depth and not listing. We also skipped over a lot of other elements and threads. It is a matter of time and of trying to make points that we think people will be interested in hearing in addition to things that interest us. We could have done a far more detailed breakdown of all the different threads but that would have been several hours of discussion, and while I enjoy that sort of thing, I do try to be at least a little mindful of what people might want to listen to and have patience for. But I tend not to separate it out as a distinct element and I see it as part and parcel of all the others and directly linked to the Patriotists for the main, but it is linked and tied to everything else. For me, the Liberty consign bridged the political, economic and military threads of the Letherii storylines, (which is why discussion of it remains at the end once the other threads are discussed) and was integral to the support that the Patriotists had (otherwise they would never have been so powerful) and to remove that would have potentially caused a massive plot hole as to why these med men were able to wield such power. So it demonstrated the willingness of the powerful to look the other way when their interests were not threatened and they believed that they could wield the Patriotists as tools. So it is essential in linking the Redmask and Letharii/Edur conflict on the plains to the events at the capital. Obviously this also thematically ties into the divine /worshipper aspects of the story in that disregard, inattention, and willful ignorance of duties lead to disaster. So the profane reflects the divine in these circumstances. It is therefore essential in explaining and supporting the rise and fall of the patriotists, the rise and fall of the Errant and Feather Witch , the rise and fall of Rhulad, and the destruction of the Letherri and Edur force facing Redmask,, It adds significant weight to Tehol's plot arc and his machinations. The inattention of Hivanar is integral to both the escalating excesses of the Patriotists, as well as their downfall, but also to the Icarium storyline and thread, which is connected to the excavation of the machine. Plus it serves as part of the thematic focus on runaway capitalism and the potential harm that extreme capitalism can cause. So it also serves to further illustrate that investigation of the downfall of the Edur caused by the systems they inherited, which is a significant development of the theme promised in Midnight Tides. There is enough material in this novel to write multiple academic papers and essays, so another way of framing it could be, instead of looking at it as this novel needing trimmed down and streamlined, why do all other novels short change us with so little? Why aren't other novels as expansive and all encompassing?
Then again, if you didn't enjoy the thread then there is little I can say that will convince you otherwise. If it were a different type of book, and if Erikson were writing it for the current marketplace, and I was a commercial editor, then more than likely there would have been a discussion about making the book more 'commercial' and making it slimmer, more accessible, more understandable, more approachable, less dense... in effect writing a different style of book. But this is in the middle of a series in which a market and readership had been already been established and therefore it was commercially viable as written as that was a style that both Erikson and the publisher felt that the current fans and readership would enjoy.
@@ACriticalDragon A.P. thanks so much for such a substantive response! You couched the Liberty Consign as a lynchpin in a way I just hadn't viewed it myself, and now when I get to a reread I think I'll be much more open to slowing down with that storyline and making more connections throughout the narrative. You once again patiently remind me to approach each book and series on its own terms, and to appreciate it for what it's doing and giving us rather than what it is not. I particularly loved your line about how maybe other authors and books are shortchanging us when they aren't as expansive. Touche! You must understand, I came to fantasy a few years ago via Sanderson's Cosmere books and the Temeraire series, and then made my way through the Dresden Files, John Gwynne's books, the Riyria Revelations, and First Law before giving Malazan a go. I had been been conditioned I think by those series to expect a certain pacing and narrative scope, and Malazan runs so counter to the style of all those. All that to say, thanks again for patiently and sagely leading me through my fantasy journey!
No worries at all. We all have personal preferences, tastes, and responses to books, that is a given. I am not saying you are wrong to feel that the Liberty Consign thread bored you or was repetitive, repetitive after all is a negative way of framing 'supporting'. You identified it as echoing and supporting other themes in the narrative, but it didn't work for you so you framed it in the negative. I argue it serves the same function that you identify but see it as echoing and supporting and drawing things together because I think that it works in that sense. We both see the same narrative function. We just evaluate it differently, and have a different preference. That is the joy of books and it is why we all have favourite books that our friends think we are insane for liking (and vice versa). I always appreciate interesting comments and views on the books, especially when there is a rationale for feeling that way, and an explanation for why. When we have those things we can have a discussion about them and about different approaches we can take in appreciating or evaluating those aspects. But it certainly doesn't invalidate your personal response. So thanks for the comment. It was interesting and it made me think about more clearly expressing these elements in the video.
Loved this book. Bonecasters and then this one really packed a punch. These were the first two books in this series I read back to back, and I'm glad I did. The Patriotists reminded a bit of the Inquisition from the First Law books, probably just because I read that series back in June, so it was fresh in my mind. I enjoyed the way the political situation in Letheras was explored, how the entrenched bureaucracy was able to isolate Rhulad. I also thought it was interesting that the Malazans initially misread the situation (bad intel), but Hellian's squad (I think it was her squad) was able to figure out that the Indebted were the Letheri who would welcome them. Glad that Tehol ended up where he did, I liked his character. Although that's two books in a row where he gets beat to within an inch of his life. Very happy to see Brys back; he was one of my favorites from Midnight Tides and his death in that book hit hard. Hope he shows back up in some of the later books. I'll need to do a reread to totally connect the dots on his story from Midnight Tides, presumably we needed someone to die and spend time in that underwater monument thing with the names to get the name of that demon that was frozen? Does it have something to do with who they worship in Lether?
One of the things that I found fascinating is that Kellanved's and Laseen's standard protocol of wiping out nobles and the upper echelons of society as a means of control is so often viewed as evil and barbaric by readers, yet Helian's squad essentially does the same thing and most readers react with praise. It is fascinating how perspective can shift opinion.
@@ACriticalDragonthat’s a good point. I wonder if it, in part, depends on whose POV we are seeing events through. Because I definitely thought the cull was overly harsh in Deadhouse Gates, and I think they were also talking about doing that in Darujistan in Gardens of the Moon, and it seemed harsh there too. Maybe part of the difference is that in Lether we saw that institutional debt slavery that was baked into their way of life, and we also spent a lot of time in the Patriotists heads, who were definitely bad guys
@paulharvey5505 exactly. Yet, when you think about it, they are the same actions. Removing the privileged class of 'haves', thus 'liberating' the 'have nots' and redistributing wealth and opportunity. Thus 'conquerors' become 'liberators'. So those earlier actions are now shown in a new light and context, and if we choose we can re-evaluate them. We know that nobles were buying commissions in the army (Ganoes got to Captain without drawing his sword), and that the Emperor's merit based system was being corrupted. So it presents us with a more complex picture should we choose to engage with it.
I have a long comment about colonialism percolating that I'm not entirely sure would fit well in the youtube comment section. Honestly feels more like an essay. I'll see what comes of it and maybe post it on part 2. Thanks for sharing another thoughtful discussion. I also just finished rereading this book and am still sorting through my thoughts but am grateful to hear yours and Phillip's thoughts
Hi Lusipher, Colonialism is such a complex, fraught, and emotional topic. There is a reason that it often is studied intently at university. So it is hard to even give it the most cursory treatment in a short video like this. I greatly look forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject, no matter the format.
@@ACriticalDragon it really is. In addition to re-reading the Malazan series, I've also been reading some Native American books (both historical and contemporary) and books covering Modern Irish history, starting from the Nine Years' War. All's I can say is holy hell. I've been interested in and reading about those topics for most of my life, but, as with so many other things, my understanding of them has changed so much with age and exposure. And it's horrifying, as I'm sure you know. Anyway, hope you're well, thanks for the response and, of course, for these and all your videos
You are very welcome. Those are some pretty heavy topics you are reading about. The parallel histories that can develop can be so radically different from each other, and some of the details that emerge can be both heart-breaking and rage inducing. It almost seems that we should refer to 'Histories' rather than 'History'. The idea that there is only one past loses sight of how perspective and position can radically change meaning, at least in my ill-educated opinion.
Hi nickorobearsson, as wonderful as that idea is, and I would love to do it, the logistics of it rule it out at this time. With Philip in the US and myself in the UK, flying to the same place requires transatlantic flights. Even if cost of flights and hotels were not an issue, that is a huge time commitment to fly to the West Coast of Canada to record a video, not to mention time away from family and work commitments. However, I am absolutely positive that in the future there will be opportunities for Philip and I to meet up to do some live in person discussion.
@@ACriticalDragon Apparently UA-cam doesn't like it when I put a link in a comment, probably spam protection, but the review is on the blog for anyone who is interested.
@@jeroenadmiraal8714 Weird, I just checked the spam folder and nothing is there. I will check back later and if it appears I will add the comment in. Sorry about that.
@@ACriticalDragon Oh I suspect that UA-cam has an automated algorithm that removes comments automatically. I doubt you will find something in a spam folder. It happened to me before simply by mentioning some company's name.
Redmask thinks he is on his way to continue the slaughter at the end. AP, are you saying he was in fact fleeing? Or did we just read that differently? A lot of people don’t resonate with his storyline, perhaps because his POV virtually disappears after the first third of the book. His is a variation on the theme of the initiate/hero returning. But he doesn’t bring the treasure home. I’m not sure if I prefer the interpretation that he doesn’t return, or that he doesn’t really separate from his origin. So he is wearing the persona of an Awl, and also the persona of a KCCM, literally wearing a mask of a matron’s skin. Those ‘guardians’ of his, can we read them as adoptive parents?
You are right, I misremembered something. Redmask abandoned his place as leader, he left the men, women and children behind to pursue a personal vendetta. At the end he becomes so focused on personal revenge and his desire for personal vengeance that he abandons his roles as leader, commander, and general, he abandons his responsibilities, and rides off to try to destroy Bivatt. So in my head I had labelled him a coward for abandoning his post and responsibilities, but I should have framed it as his personal ego and mission had him betray his role. He wasn't in it to elevate the Awl or protect the Awl, or even be their champion. He did all of this to satisfy a bloodlust and a need for personal vengeance. I think that this is actually the reason why the Che'Malle turn on him.
I'm sorry to tell you this but you are quite wrong about the power dynamics. To be a swordsman you have to be able to avoid several bolts at the same time like the Seguleh. Therefore a sniper would always lose. Anyway great video as always.
First readthrough so I had to share my thoughts in roughly the order you discussed them: -I honestly couldn't care less about the Red Mask storyline. Just didn't feel like it added much to the overall story besides another tragic end for Toc. Nothing new IMO. -Udinas I agree was similar to Felisin, who I found insufferable. I know where he's coming from but he was just a little much. I wanted more of Kettle, I really loved her character and I usually despise child characters. Her ending I thought was so heartbreaking. Udinas did have a beautiful moment with his son, one of my favorites of the book. -I was so happy to see Trull just wipe the floor with Clip after he killed Fear right in front of him. -39:32: Other realms "which are filled with death and danger and demons and other things beginning with 'd'" like a bunch of DICKS!! Sorry couldn't help myself but there are a ton of dicks in this story, chief among them The Crippled God. -Oh god I couldn't care less about the POV Patriotists chapters. The arrogance of them all was staggering. If there were about half of those chapters I wouldn't have minded them as much, but it got to the point where I was reading them going 'ok I get it you all think you're smarter than everyone else and you can't lose' etc. And then they proceed to lose and die thank fuck. -I really enjoy the Tehol and Bugg scenes, although not as much as when Tehol didn't know Bugg was an elder god. -Speaking of Karsa, (and again this is my first read so I may not have the answer yet) why the hell doesn't he take that flint sword and chop up The Crippled God? Or why doesn't Mael? Is The Crippled God invulnerable? Great discussion guys!!
@@ACriticalDragon After a quick Google search it is between Redmask and Toc. Togg's Teats? Togg is a god so useless. Hood's breath. God of death so no breath. And an excellent comment on the worship of gods. 'Imagine how unhelpful they would be if we didn't.'
42:00 the Patriotists are the worst. Them and Chancellor Triban Gnol. I really wished Sirryn Kanar's eternal torment also for Tanal, Karos and Triban. They are maybe the worst human beings in the whole series and that's not an easy title to get in this grim world
The Liberty Consign are almost worse because they employ the Patriotists, knowing full well that they are evil and morally bankrupt, as a method of control so that they can carry on with their plans. While the Patriotists are foaming at the mouth villains filled with rage, hate, and self-aggrandisement, the Liberty Consign are callous, cruel, and uncaring about the cost in human lives and suffering in employing such a rabid tool.
32:00 come on you say the thing with the Azath and Kettle wasn't surprising but Clip being the assassin was? He screamed emo and Child of Darkness so for me it was 100% clear he's a sneaky assassin
This goes to the point that I usually make about how we interpret the words on the text differently and how we give weight and meaning to aspects on an individual basis despite reading the same text. None of the assassins we have met have been like this. The Andii assassin mages in GotM, Kallam, Pearl, Topper, Mallick Rel, Vorcan, Sorry... none of these assassins have been like this. Duellists and sword masters on the other hand are frequently described as arrogant and obnoxious. We have plenty of examples of those. SO Clip claiming to be the Mortal Sword and apparently on a quest for Vengeance fits with 'warrior' not necessarily 'assassin'. So I was more surprised by this than by the reveal about Kettle. Kettle, on the other hand, was someone as I saw in terms of her position relative to the Azath. There were hints in Midnight Tides about her role and what the Azath intended. We had already seen aspects of this in GotM. There is a recurring theme about sacrifice and sacrificing a soul to create. This just 'clicked' for me, so I wasn't surprised.
@@ACriticalDragon very interesting. I didn't see it coming this way cuz I remember that Silchas or someone said sth about Kettle havimg the soul of a Forkrul Assail and I thouht sth would come out of that. I might misremember tho well but that's what I was hung up on
@@aysseralwan okay well I'm responding to you on two different comments now lol, but I do wanna say here you're right about the Forkrul Assail soul in Kettle. And that was specifically why Silchas was going to maybe kill her, as mentioned in MT. So that specific part was fairly well foreshadowed, but not the Azath growing out of her. Additionally, at this point (and I just finished RG for the first time so I don't know if we get more info on this in the last 3 books) the Forkrul Assail soul is just completely unexplained. Like, what happened to it or how it affects things now. I guess we can assume it's in the Azath somehow, with Scabandari but... I hope it's not just left at that lmao. What they doing in there???
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![Spoiler Chat: Reaper's Gale (Book 07 Malazan Book of the Fallen) with Philip Chase [Part Two]](/img/tr.png)
One of my favorite Fiddler moments happens near the end and can be summarized succinctly with a quote -"F*cking dragon."
He does have his moments in the series 😂
Another discussion I thoroughly enjoyed! Reaper’s Gale packs such a powerful punch, and chatting about it with you helped me understand why. Thank you, my friend. I’m excited for part two of the spoilers!
Always a pleasure. And, now that we will have a bit more time, we can go back over some of the things we skipped as well... if we have time.
There is so much to explore in these books. The Red Mask storyline had a deep impact on me. AP, you took the words right out of my mouth when you referenced Grey Owl. Red Mask appropriates the Awl culture with the support of another powerful culture; Red Mask’s guardians are really a metaphor for English society praising and celebrating the efforts of Grey Owl. When Grey Owl was revealed to be a “fraud”, that same society turned on him. Red Mask is also the “white man” who wants to save the “natives”; the heroic figure who single handedly saves the down trotted. The fallacy of the “white man” that they can be both conqueror and saviour of a culture. Can’t wait for Part 2 and your insights into the multiple facets of Hood; he is not just the reaper of souls…
Francois, those are great points. Thank you.
Just finished today. I think Redmask more suffered from complete delusion rather than cowardice. We get his POV right before his death and he thought the battle was going swimmingly; said something to the effect that the Awl on the platform were moments away from breaking the Letherri lines.
Like you suggested though I think he was pretty clearly an inversion of the chosen one trope. Right up until his death I was thinking that surely he had one more trick up his sleeve. Especially since Toc was with him, Erikson wouldn’t make Toc suffer more than he already has.. 😭
A critical dragon drinking game, drink when: Colonialism, Psychic Distance, Nemesis, Rags on Lasseen. Narrative, Kernels, Spoilers,
I am not paying for your liver transplant.
@@ACriticalDragon time to move to Canada 🇨🇦
What happens when we add diegetic, perspective, and ochre?
@@ACriticalDragon then I need to get married in Canada as soon as possible. Got to get those naturalized citizen rights to combat the bad personal choices.
37:00 it was very tragic and macabre. Hedge blew Emroth I think was her name up and he later sees part of her blown up body and a leg that found itself in the refugium was blood and flesh and that's when Hedge realized and wept for her
I completely agree. If she had journeyed just a little further then she may have had the same revelatory experience that Onrack had. So it frames the whole thing as tragic and a missed opportunity.
"I know writers who use subtext, and they're all cowards!" - Garth Marenghi, "Garth Marenghi's Darkplace" (not my personal opnion, but too hilarious to not mention!)
The irony of that statement is wonderful.
A lot of great moments in RG. One you didn't mention: Abasard and his sister.
SE at his finest, demonstrating his ability to draw you deeply into a new character after only a handful of pages. So good.
That is such a powerful and understated moment in the series. One of the quotations that we like to use is the whole 'Children are dying' and here we see it in such stark detail. It is a great moment, thank you for reminding me.
Brilliant discussion! I love the deep exploration of how social and human rights issues are addressed in multiple complex ways. Udinaas and Seren Pedac are such fascinating characters, and their interactions highlighted so much that was shown to us in previous books while adding even more intensity in this one. I loved the quest journey and various motivations. So many tragic ends or diverging paths for characters who had other ambitions or hopes in mind. Thank you both! I’m looking forward to Part 2!
I am so pleased that you enjoyed it, Johanna.
There are so many big questions asked by the books, and so few ready answers. The movement between macros scale and micro scale considerations endlessly fascinates me.
“At some point, no matter how repressive the regime, the citizenry will come to comprehend the vast power in their hands. The destitute, the Indebted, the beleaguered middle classes; in short, the myriad victims. Control was sleight of hand trickery, and against a hundred thousand defiant citizens it stood no real chance. All at once, the game was up.” (p.874) - despatches from Melbourne, Australia.
Let them eat cake.
I can't tell you how excited I was to see this video was only part one, I love these discussions and Reaper's Gale is my favorite Malazan book!
Hi Blake, thanks for watching. I hope that you enjoyed it. We can't do the book justice, even in these longer conversations, but we do love trying.
Just finished Reapers Gale 2 days ago and it is my new favorite Malazan, Deadhouse Gates was holding that slot for me until now, and I have a renewed excitement for this series. I’m reading with Mikes crew but she want to go straight into Toll the Hounds right NOW
I am so pleased to hear that you enjoyed the book. I hope that you enjoy the videos and the rest of the series.
🎶 Quest friends are best friends🎶
My favorite book of the series!
Always great to see you two talk things Malazan. RG can be very dark indeed, but Erikson is very objective. You get the perspectives of both victim and perpetrator, where the victim has agency and the perpetrator is not mysteriously monstrous, but all too human.
Looking forward to Part 2!
Hi Johan, I am glad that you enjoyed it.
Seeing inside the monster and realising that the monster is all too human is one of the most difficult things to read for me. It is so easy to think that evil is only perpetrated by monsters when it is all too common that the monstrosity is actually far too human.
Great, now I have to reread all the epigraphs in RG to figure out what the heck AP is talking about.
Always read the epigraphs. You will be very surprised what suddenly becomes obvious when you pay attention to the epigraphs. But more to the point you are only learning this now??? Have my other videos had no impact?
Woe is me. Woe, I tell you.
@@ACriticalDragon I read them but I don't know what it is that I missed. Honestly, I only understand about 1/3 of the epigraphs.
1/3 is a start. I think it has to do with some of what we discussed before. Thinking about the literal meanings, and then applying that to more generalised or abstract patterns.
If you pick out a couple of epigraphs I can always do a video about some of the ones that you don't understand.
@@ACriticalDragon Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.
been looking forward to this omg
The story about the trapper made me think of a certain character from The God is not Willing.
Really enjoy it when you two get together for these spoiler chats. Thanks again for them.
Hi Andrew, you are very welcome, thanks for watching.
You gents are always a joy to watch. Excited for Toll the Hounds!
I am glad that you enjoyed it. I hope that you enjoy Toll the Hounds. Have a great weekend.
27:00 come on I also didn't see Kettle being the vessel for the Azath. I mean I knew she has a bad end coming for her but that Silchas just takes the Finnest dagger and by killing Kettle is summoning a new Azath. Like I mean it doesn't surprise cuz in Malazan things are very weird and magical but I also didn't expect it and was like yeah I know exactly what will happen. Prof Chase you aren't the only one surprised by those events
lol right?? I WAS SHOOK when AP was all "you didn't see that coming????" Like bruh. We didn't know the details of the bargain Silchas made with the dying Azath in Letheras. I also don't think we've known explicitly that Finnests can turn into Azaths... ??? I'm not sure about that one, cause in GoTM, an acorn Finnest did turn into an Azath. But I don't remember that being explictly discussed to where we should know "any Finnest can or will grow a new Azath" lol. And even if we did -- what triggers it? Even if a ton of hints were dropped I just don't see how we could have specifically guessed what happened. Maybe I missed something *shrug*
Anyway I just finished Reaper's Gale and am starting TTH so if anyone replies, don't spoil if you have corrections to what I said above, but they're revealed after RG!
What a good way to start the morning!
Not as good as coffee, but we do our best.
39:00 and Trull/Kettle? 👀👀 hinted that she might be the seed the Eres’al stole from him in HOC
Oh how I wish I could have started to read this sooner to participate in these discussions. For me when Redmask was revealed as Letharii I personally thought this was like a clandestine mission to further advance the Letharii Empire that by drawing Edur forces at the sacrifice of your own you'd kill the remaining Awl and open yourself up to still contested grasslands with the others, but the others would have also seen Redmask and a legend die. I suppose it'd be a one off Letharii to clothes themselves in the mystisim, but How do the K'Chain play into this by being tricked?! Anyway! My first read.
1 hour for part 1!! Let’s go! So happy you guys are doing two parts for this one. Can’t wait to watch this later on!
The second chat is also about an hour. I hope you enjoy it.
That was good as always.
As for the Red Mask story we have to acknowledge that we get most of it from the ppl around him. And Toc need some more discussion not just a mention since he's part of the saddest part of this book.
And yes I'm up for more malazan talk the more the merrier.
Toc always seems to get the short end of the stick. He really did deserve a lot more discussion. Sorry about that.
I must add that as a kid if you asked me what attract me to reading and fantasy book in particular I would have said it's a good place to run to since it's not our world. Later when I grew up I found out that it's not the escape I was looking for but the different background where I (or the author) can tackle complex ideas without the real world to weight it down and then I found Malazan and that is partly why it's probably at the top of the list of my favorite books.
I think that you and I had a similar experience with Fantasy.
This was a wonderfully insightful discussion and I can't wait for Part 2, as the Malazan thread in RG was one of my favorite's in the whole series! A.P., if you were the official editor of Reaper's Gale, would you have recommended the narrative be tightened up by just a hair in the Letheras portion? I noticed you and Philip didn't mention my least favorite strand of the book even once in this chat, involving the Liberty Consign of Merchants and POV characters like Rautos Hivanar and Venitt Sathad.
I fear that the inclusion of this supremely inimpactful strand greatly lessened my overall enjoyment of what was otherwise an incredible and powerful book, and I wonder if you had edited it if it could have been avoided.
and I know you like seeing criticism with some reasoning behind it, so I'll just extend my thoughts here: I feel like Erikson accomplished the same themes in the Letheras sphere more powerfully with the Patriotists thread and those characters, and so the Liberty Consign thread just felt redundant, not to mention its events were less central to the book's main plot elements as well. When a book has so many POVs and plot threads already to keep track of, one redundant one feels like one too many.
This was actually going to come up in part 2 because it was about the Malazans, and the denoument in Lether, which is where I feel the Liberty Consign element fits in discussion. But to answer your question, I don't think that I would have suggested excising that plot thread and I wouldn't call it redundant. It is intrinsically bound up in the relationship between the Letherii political, commercial, military web. If you noticed, we barely spoke about a lot of the Patriotist story elements, mostly because there is a huge amount happening in this novel and we were trying to hit as many different high aspects that we could with at least some attempt at depth and not listing. We also skipped over a lot of other elements and threads. It is a matter of time and of trying to make points that we think people will be interested in hearing in addition to things that interest us.
We could have done a far more detailed breakdown of all the different threads but that would have been several hours of discussion, and while I enjoy that sort of thing, I do try to be at least a little mindful of what people might want to listen to and have patience for.
But I tend not to separate it out as a distinct element and I see it as part and parcel of all the others and directly linked to the Patriotists for the main, but it is linked and tied to everything else.
For me, the Liberty consign bridged the political, economic and military threads of the Letherii storylines, (which is why discussion of it remains at the end once the other threads are discussed) and was integral to the support that the Patriotists had (otherwise they would never have been so powerful) and to remove that would have potentially caused a massive plot hole as to why these med men were able to wield such power. So it demonstrated the willingness of the powerful to look the other way when their interests were not threatened and they believed that they could wield the Patriotists as tools. So it is essential in linking the Redmask and Letharii/Edur conflict on the plains to the events at the capital.
Obviously this also thematically ties into the divine /worshipper aspects of the story in that disregard, inattention, and willful ignorance of duties lead to disaster. So the profane reflects the divine in these circumstances. It is therefore essential in explaining and supporting the rise and fall of the patriotists, the rise and fall of the Errant and Feather Witch , the rise and fall of Rhulad, and the destruction of the Letherri and Edur force facing Redmask,,
It adds significant weight to Tehol's plot arc and his machinations.
The inattention of Hivanar is integral to both the escalating excesses of the Patriotists, as well as their downfall, but also to the Icarium storyline and thread, which is connected to the excavation of the machine.
Plus it serves as part of the thematic focus on runaway capitalism and the potential harm that extreme capitalism can cause. So it also serves to further illustrate that investigation of the downfall of the Edur caused by the systems they inherited, which is a significant development of the theme promised in Midnight Tides.
There is enough material in this novel to write multiple academic papers and essays, so another way of framing it could be, instead of looking at it as this novel needing trimmed down and streamlined, why do all other novels short change us with so little? Why aren't other novels as expansive and all encompassing?
Then again, if you didn't enjoy the thread then there is little I can say that will convince you otherwise.
If it were a different type of book, and if Erikson were writing it for the current marketplace, and I was a commercial editor, then more than likely there would have been a discussion about making the book more 'commercial' and making it slimmer, more accessible, more understandable, more approachable, less dense... in effect writing a different style of book.
But this is in the middle of a series in which a market and readership had been already been established and therefore it was commercially viable as written as that was a style that both Erikson and the publisher felt that the current fans and readership would enjoy.
@@ACriticalDragon A.P. thanks so much for such a substantive response! You couched the Liberty Consign as a lynchpin in a way I just hadn't viewed it myself, and now when I get to a reread I think I'll be much more open to slowing down with that storyline and making more connections throughout the narrative.
You once again patiently remind me to approach each book and series on its own terms, and to appreciate it for what it's doing and giving us rather than what it is not. I particularly loved your line about how maybe other authors and books are shortchanging us when they aren't as expansive. Touche!
You must understand, I came to fantasy a few years ago via Sanderson's Cosmere books and the Temeraire series, and then made my way through the Dresden Files, John Gwynne's books, the Riyria Revelations, and First Law before giving Malazan a go. I had been been conditioned I think by those series to expect a certain pacing and narrative scope, and Malazan runs so counter to the style of all those. All that to say, thanks again for patiently and sagely leading me through my fantasy journey!
No worries at all. We all have personal preferences, tastes, and responses to books, that is a given. I am not saying you are wrong to feel that the Liberty Consign thread bored you or was repetitive, repetitive after all is a negative way of framing 'supporting'. You identified it as echoing and supporting other themes in the narrative, but it didn't work for you so you framed it in the negative. I argue it serves the same function that you identify but see it as echoing and supporting and drawing things together because I think that it works in that sense. We both see the same narrative function. We just evaluate it differently, and have a different preference.
That is the joy of books and it is why we all have favourite books that our friends think we are insane for liking (and vice versa).
I always appreciate interesting comments and views on the books, especially when there is a rationale for feeling that way, and an explanation for why. When we have those things we can have a discussion about them and about different approaches we can take in appreciating or evaluating those aspects. But it certainly doesn't invalidate your personal response. So thanks for the comment. It was interesting and it made me think about more clearly expressing these elements in the video.
Loved this book. Bonecasters and then this one really packed a punch. These were the first two books in this series I read back to back, and I'm glad I did. The Patriotists reminded a bit of the Inquisition from the First Law books, probably just because I read that series back in June, so it was fresh in my mind. I enjoyed the way the political situation in Letheras was explored, how the entrenched bureaucracy was able to isolate Rhulad. I also thought it was interesting that the Malazans initially misread the situation (bad intel), but Hellian's squad (I think it was her squad) was able to figure out that the Indebted were the Letheri who would welcome them.
Glad that Tehol ended up where he did, I liked his character. Although that's two books in a row where he gets beat to within an inch of his life. Very happy to see Brys back; he was one of my favorites from Midnight Tides and his death in that book hit hard. Hope he shows back up in some of the later books. I'll need to do a reread to totally connect the dots on his story from Midnight Tides, presumably we needed someone to die and spend time in that underwater monument thing with the names to get the name of that demon that was frozen? Does it have something to do with who they worship in Lether?
One of the things that I found fascinating is that Kellanved's and Laseen's standard protocol of wiping out nobles and the upper echelons of society as a means of control is so often viewed as evil and barbaric by readers, yet Helian's squad essentially does the same thing and most readers react with praise.
It is fascinating how perspective can shift opinion.
@@ACriticalDragonthat’s a good point. I wonder if it, in part, depends on whose POV we are seeing events through. Because I definitely thought the cull was overly harsh in Deadhouse Gates, and I think they were also talking about doing that in Darujistan in Gardens of the Moon, and it seemed harsh there too.
Maybe part of the difference is that in Lether we saw that institutional debt slavery that was baked into their way of life, and we also spent a lot of time in the Patriotists heads, who were definitely bad guys
@paulharvey5505 exactly. Yet, when you think about it, they are the same actions. Removing the privileged class of 'haves', thus 'liberating' the 'have nots' and redistributing wealth and opportunity. Thus 'conquerors' become 'liberators'.
So those earlier actions are now shown in a new light and context, and if we choose we can re-evaluate them.
We know that nobles were buying commissions in the army (Ganoes got to Captain without drawing his sword), and that the Emperor's merit based system was being corrupted. So it presents us with a more complex picture should we choose to engage with it.
I have a long comment about colonialism percolating that I'm not entirely sure would fit well in the youtube comment section. Honestly feels more like an essay. I'll see what comes of it and maybe post it on part 2.
Thanks for sharing another thoughtful discussion. I also just finished rereading this book and am still sorting through my thoughts but am grateful to hear yours and Phillip's thoughts
Hi Lusipher, Colonialism is such a complex, fraught, and emotional topic. There is a reason that it often is studied intently at university. So it is hard to even give it the most cursory treatment in a short video like this. I greatly look forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject, no matter the format.
@@ACriticalDragon it really is. In addition to re-reading the Malazan series, I've also been reading some Native American books (both historical and contemporary) and books covering Modern Irish history, starting from the Nine Years' War.
All's I can say is holy hell. I've been interested in and reading about those topics for most of my life, but, as with so many other things, my understanding of them has changed so much with age and exposure. And it's horrifying, as I'm sure you know. Anyway, hope you're well, thanks for the response and, of course, for these and all your videos
You are very welcome. Those are some pretty heavy topics you are reading about. The parallel histories that can develop can be so radically different from each other, and some of the details that emerge can be both heart-breaking and rage inducing. It almost seems that we should refer to 'Histories' rather than 'History'. The idea that there is only one past loses sight of how perspective and position can radically change meaning, at least in my ill-educated opinion.
With the travel restrictions getting lifted soon… maybe you guys could do the last two books at the same table?? (Love all of these btw..)
Maybe a table at Munro’s books? With a certain special guest?
Hi nickorobearsson, as wonderful as that idea is, and I would love to do it, the logistics of it rule it out at this time. With Philip in the US and myself in the UK, flying to the same place requires transatlantic flights. Even if cost of flights and hotels were not an issue, that is a huge time commitment to fly to the West Coast of Canada to record a video, not to mention time away from family and work commitments.
However, I am absolutely positive that in the future there will be opportunities for Philip and I to meet up to do some live in person discussion.
I've just finished Reaper's Gale and I liked it a lot! Now typing my own review. Great discussion.
I am glad that you liked the book. I am looking forward to the review. Stick a link to the review here if you want.
@@ACriticalDragon Apparently UA-cam doesn't like it when I put a link in a comment, probably spam protection, but the review is on the blog for anyone who is interested.
@@jeroenadmiraal8714 Weird, I just checked the spam folder and nothing is there. I will check back later and if it appears I will add the comment in. Sorry about that.
@@ACriticalDragon Oh I suspect that UA-cam has an automated algorithm that removes comments automatically. I doubt you will find something in a spam folder. It happened to me before simply by mentioning some company's name.
Redmask thinks he is on his way to continue the slaughter at the end. AP, are you saying he was in fact fleeing? Or did we just read that differently?
A lot of people don’t resonate with his storyline, perhaps because his POV virtually disappears after the first third of the book. His is a variation on the theme of the initiate/hero returning. But he doesn’t bring the treasure home. I’m not sure if I prefer the interpretation that he doesn’t return, or that he doesn’t really separate from his origin.
So he is wearing the persona of an Awl, and also the persona of a KCCM, literally wearing a mask of a matron’s skin. Those ‘guardians’ of his, can we read them as adoptive parents?
You are right, I misremembered something.
Redmask abandoned his place as leader, he left the men, women and children behind to pursue a personal vendetta. At the end he becomes so focused on personal revenge and his desire for personal vengeance that he abandons his roles as leader, commander, and general, he abandons his responsibilities, and rides off to try to destroy Bivatt.
So in my head I had labelled him a coward for abandoning his post and responsibilities, but I should have framed it as his personal ego and mission had him betray his role. He wasn't in it to elevate the Awl or protect the Awl, or even be their champion. He did all of this to satisfy a bloodlust and a need for personal vengeance.
I think that this is actually the reason why the Che'Malle turn on him.
I'm sorry to tell you this but you are quite wrong about the power dynamics. To be a swordsman you have to be able to avoid several bolts at the same time like the Seguleh. Therefore a sniper would always lose.
Anyway great video as always.
Hi Hans, thanks for watching, and thank you for the support, it is greatly appreciated.
First readthrough so I had to share my thoughts in roughly the order you discussed them:
-I honestly couldn't care less about the Red Mask storyline. Just didn't feel like it added much to the overall story besides another tragic end for Toc. Nothing new IMO.
-Udinas I agree was similar to Felisin, who I found insufferable. I know where he's coming from but he was just a little much. I wanted more of Kettle, I really loved her character and I usually despise child characters. Her ending I thought was so heartbreaking. Udinas did have a beautiful moment with his son, one of my favorites of the book.
-I was so happy to see Trull just wipe the floor with Clip after he killed Fear right in front of him.
-39:32: Other realms "which are filled with death and danger and demons and other things beginning with 'd'" like a bunch of DICKS!! Sorry couldn't help myself but there are a ton of dicks in this story, chief among them The Crippled God.
-Oh god I couldn't care less about the POV Patriotists chapters. The arrogance of them all was staggering. If there were about half of those chapters I wouldn't have minded them as much, but it got to the point where I was reading them going 'ok I get it you all think you're smarter than everyone else and you can't lose' etc. And then they proceed to lose and die thank fuck.
-I really enjoy the Tehol and Bugg scenes, although not as much as when Tehol didn't know Bugg was an elder god.
-Speaking of Karsa, (and again this is my first read so I may not have the answer yet) why the hell doesn't he take that flint sword and chop up The Crippled God? Or why doesn't Mael? Is The Crippled God invulnerable?
Great discussion guys!!
I might be jumping ahead but was it in RG where you are provided the history and proper usage of swearing on Hood's various body parts?
I am not sure exactly what you are referring to, so I would be interested in hearing more.
@@ACriticalDragon After a quick Google search it is between Redmask and Toc.
Togg's Teats?
Togg is a god so useless.
Hood's breath.
God of death so no breath.
And an excellent comment on the worship of gods. 'Imagine how unhelpful they would be if we didn't.'
Ahhh I know what you mean now.
I was so lost on this book 😕. This is helpful to understand what I just read lol
Glad we could help. Thanks for watching. Have a great Christmas.
@@ACriticalDragon you as well 🎅😊
42:00 the Patriotists are the worst. Them and Chancellor Triban Gnol. I really wished Sirryn Kanar's eternal torment also for Tanal, Karos and Triban. They are maybe the worst human beings in the whole series and that's not an easy title to get in this grim world
The Liberty Consign are almost worse because they employ the Patriotists, knowing full well that they are evil and morally bankrupt, as a method of control so that they can carry on with their plans. While the Patriotists are foaming at the mouth villains filled with rage, hate, and self-aggrandisement, the Liberty Consign are callous, cruel, and uncaring about the cost in human lives and suffering in employing such a rabid tool.
@@ACriticalDragon good point. They deserve each other
32:00 come on you say the thing with the Azath and Kettle wasn't surprising but Clip being the assassin was? He screamed emo and Child of Darkness so for me it was 100% clear he's a sneaky assassin
This goes to the point that I usually make about how we interpret the words on the text differently and how we give weight and meaning to aspects on an individual basis despite reading the same text. None of the assassins we have met have been like this. The Andii assassin mages in GotM, Kallam, Pearl, Topper, Mallick Rel, Vorcan, Sorry... none of these assassins have been like this. Duellists and sword masters on the other hand are frequently described as arrogant and obnoxious. We have plenty of examples of those. SO Clip claiming to be the Mortal Sword and apparently on a quest for Vengeance fits with 'warrior' not necessarily 'assassin'. So I was more surprised by this than by the reveal about Kettle.
Kettle, on the other hand, was someone as I saw in terms of her position relative to the Azath. There were hints in Midnight Tides about her role and what the Azath intended. We had already seen aspects of this in GotM. There is a recurring theme about sacrifice and sacrificing a soul to create. This just 'clicked' for me, so I wasn't surprised.
@@ACriticalDragon very interesting. I didn't see it coming this way cuz I remember that Silchas or someone said sth about Kettle havimg the soul of a Forkrul Assail and I thouht sth would come out of that. I might misremember tho well but that's what I was hung up on
@@aysseralwan okay well I'm responding to you on two different comments now lol, but I do wanna say here you're right about the Forkrul Assail soul in Kettle. And that was specifically why Silchas was going to maybe kill her, as mentioned in MT.
So that specific part was fairly well foreshadowed, but not the Azath growing out of her. Additionally, at this point (and I just finished RG for the first time so I don't know if we get more info on this in the last 3 books) the Forkrul Assail soul is just completely unexplained. Like, what happened to it or how it affects things now. I guess we can assume it's in the Azath somehow, with Scabandari but... I hope it's not just left at that lmao. What they doing in there???