My favorite part of the video: Professor Fireballs expounding on the various types of fireballs one can cast and the sundry methodologies of conjuring them! 😁
@@GiovaniPablo1 maybe read the second one as well (Deadhouse Gates) and then decide if you like it or not 😊 personally, I loved Gardens but Deadhouse opens the world a lot and you get the first taste (not even close to the whole picture) of what’s to come
@@GiovaniPablo1 don't know if you started yet but it's worth keeping with it despite the possible confusion lol. personally, i loved it so much despite the confusion that i felt motivated enough to read it again which helped a lot. it's a confusing book i couldn't understand fully the first time, so please don't feel bad! it's on audible too
a brilliant discussion! it shows that the importance of studying myth, philosophy and culture is integral to anyone wanting to write in the fantasy genre. thank you!
"... The poet recoils. All those tales of childhood, the magicks and the witches and wizards, the cursed gems and sacred swords - magic, my young friend, belongs to twin goddesses... I see them still. Name this first one Wonder, and she leads you by the hand into unlikely realms..." - Fall of Light, ch. 25 Great video! Your conversation reminded me of the Old Lord and Wreneck scenes at the end if this book. Hmm... this is giving me my own video ideas. Thanks again!
Loved this convo, especially the difference between personal animism and gods, along with religious schisms. It's something I wish more Fantasy and even Scifi authors would tackle more.
This was a incredible conversation. I thought AP’s point on how video games have changed what we expect of certain kinds of magic in storytelling was great. Fascinating as always, thank you both for the time.
I cannot emphasize how much this discussion hits home for me. I've been playing D&D for forty years and love the game to death, but I've never really liked D&D type spell systems in my readings. I've lived with it in some of the books I've enjoyed, but for the most part veered toward the malleable style of magic like the Malazan or the Covenant series reveal. The discussion of how cultures shape magic was fascinating and spot on for me. Great job!!!!
Damn, I had forgotten how much I enjoyed these. This was so much fun to listen to! And now the comments 😁. Steve was saying that we, in the West, are only now achieving this ccthonic level of understanding of the world around us, but I don't know that this is necessarily true. I would rather say that we used to have it and that we lost it at some point. And that we are now returning to it. It brings to mind a story from our folklore teacher who went to a folkloric festival at some point during his life and there he met, among other nations, a group from Belgium. Being a curious man, he asked about their traditional clothing and its symbolism (as an aside, our traditional clothes do have meaning, or at least they used to, and the geometrical patterns sewn on them used to tell a story, unique to the weaver). He was interested in particular by the fact that they wore an ear of wheat on their heads ( I hope I used ear correctl here). To his surprise, they had no idea why they did that. The response they gave was that they had seen it in an old painting and they had replicated it for the festival. Then he told them that in our culture, wheat is seen as a symbol of the cycle of life and death, and as such, in a way, or immortality. Life sprouts from the seed, and in giving life, it dies. I guess that through the prism of this story, it would be easy to conclude that there was a point in time where the Belgians too understood the meaning of these symbols, and that everything else they did held a meaning that was now lost to modern man. It's just an alternative point of view. Then there was something you discussed that drew my attention, and that's the worshipping of dead gods, where people aren't even aware that the god is dead. Or if they are aware, they don't care. I am pretty sure that the worshippers of Meanas knew that there was nobody sitting on the throne of Shadow. That's why there was so much surprise when an occupant showed out of nowhere. And that's a point that has long had my attention. A god may rule temporarily over an aspect, but the god is not its life. The aspect is eternal, the god may not be, and so it feels to me that the books have done a very good job at separating god from realm from aspect. After all, we have aspects with no realm and no god and no worship (Denul being one of them). Take the example of the Tiste Andii. Do they worship Mother Dark, do they unknowingly worship Draconus, or do they worship Elemental Darkness? And is the death of a god even relevant? What does death even constitute for gods? Is Draconus dead, killed by Rake, or is he merely in a state of.... non living? How does his non death impact the power he holds over his domain? And should both he and Mother Dark die for real, would the Tiste Andii stop worshipping Kurald Galain? Nor would Kurald Galain die if its gods are dead, or if there is nobody sitting on its throne. The same could be said for Fener, and Trake, and the Wolves of Winter. So I guess that in worshipping a god, people are worshipping the eternal through them. And the eternal, in these books at least, is the magical aspect. For last, Steve says that mortals can interfere with the godly realms and cause a mess, and he used Quick Ben as an example, but is Quick Ben truly mortal? That doesn't make his statement incorrect, obviously (it's just me being a smart ass 😋)
Thanks so much for these discussions. I honestly think they're an important part of contemporary discourse regarding fantasy literature. Reducing magic to technology, like Erikson talked about in the video, is a major issue for me. Stripping the "magic" out of magic (and fantasy as a whole) has become a bigger and bigger annoyance of mine over the past few years. I'm sure I've rambled about this in the past, but I've started reading literary fiction instead of fantasy to get my fix of wonder. It all comes down to taste, etc. etc.--we've all heard the arguments and there's a lot of truth to them. However, I think it's important to push back against many readers' insistence on the importance of magic "systems" as a part of "good" worldbuilding. Maybe I've just had a bad sampling of fantasy readers, but I've noticed increasingly rigid views of what fantasy "is" and how authors "should" write it. They pay lip service to taste and the subjectivity of art and say that authors should do whatever they want, but as soon as they start discussing specific books that all falls away and they get real prescriptive real quick. Similarly, maybe it's just the authors I've read, but I've found that a *lot* of modern fantasy seems to conform to these views. For me, The Black Company is pretty much the gold standard for magic and worldbuilding, and I have a hard time imagining that book being published today. Maybe I'm a curmudgeonly old bastard at the age of 27, but I'm frustrated. I guess that's why I write, though, since no one else seems to be writing what I want to read. I'm curious to see how fantasy continues to evolve over the coming years, in any case. Thanks again for the video!
I always love these discussions - I'm so behind because I only want to watch them when I can make sure to pay attention... I don't just want them on as background noise!
Reading House of Chains and it is fucking awesome. Love it! Always great to see this mostly dry Steven laugh here and there, you two definitely seem great buddies.
A fascinating discourse, as always. Magic and technology are tools, to put it crudely, to solve problems that would otherwise be difficult or outright impossible to achieve by normal strengths or abilities. The one defining difference between them is, while technology is devised by man, magic is a mysterious, otherworldly force which can be manipulated by a few who understand it sufficiently (note, not completely). And, the manner in which an inventor or engineer understands his machinery differs vastly from the way in which a mage understands magic. While the former knows in and out the nuances of his craft and is able to improve upon them, the latter knows only barely enough and is fully aware there is a much vaster knowledge he doesn't possess and never will. Magic, in my opinion, should be this incomprehensible, mysterious force, yet subject to the will of a mage as an infinitesimal section of an ocean is subject to a ship seeking to navigate it. With the abrupt bloom of these so-called hard magic systems (and this is merely my own observation), modern fantasy unfortunately has been reduced to a scientific or technological tool by which the characters can solve problems. And how do we understand science/technology? By learning and learning and learning. This is why these authors cram their stories with exposition dumps and appendices about the magic system, this losing all its sense of wonder, mystery, mistique, enigma... Magic then becomes formulaic and predictable, which defies the purpose of its existence. If I wanted such, I would have read a Sci-fi novel instead. But, with magic being a major - if not defining - element of fantasy, I'd say fantasy as a genre is slowly losing its way. This trend of harder magic systems being considered not just an alternative to softer magic systems, but superior to it, is one I find rather absurd. There is a reason the Lord of the Rings and the Malazan Book of the Fallen are the best works of fantasy to have ever existed, and this is because readers (and authors) forget magic isn't all there is to fantasy, even if it is a major element.
Listen to SE analyse his work is always such a joy. Wonderful conversation which gave me a lot of things to think about, both in regards to fantasy/my D&D games and the world at large. Thank you ^^
Always get a warm fuzzy feeling when people call it AD&D. And the mention on Rolemaster which is probably why I didn't find warrens confusing at all from jts magic system. As mentioned, Malazan also makes use of multiple cultural as well as geographic magic systems/traditions as opposed to having essentially one for the world.
Thank you for the video, AP! It was great! So following your previous video about hard and soft magic and now this one: In the Malazan world, is it hard magic disguised as soft magic o viceversa? I am sure Steven turned the tables in one situation or another, but I am interested in your take one this.
This is getting me through my having to go through, ehm, let’s call it The Thing, as is the wont of some friends and colleagues of mine who are thoroughly over it. To call this period The Thing.
We all like to feel safe while we are sleeping. "Locks are for honest people." No surprise that humanity has always requested that deity's and the like "Watch the door" while we sleep. Better safe than sorry~!
It is a great talk these one. During the talk, I wander what are the personal religion of both of you. I can't imagine how to reconcile the knowledge of the believing of different cultures and the beliefs on religion that you both may have. Are you atheists? Best wishes from Mexico! By the way. I am at Dust of Dreams and can see the similitudes from many of the cultures around Lether, near the wastelands, and some of the mexican/american cultures from pre Colombian times. It is just awesome.
This video really made me wish I had a group who were more willing to branch out and try different systems rather than (as Steve said) fighting against 5e's constraints to tell the kind of story we want to. Ah well, a man can dream :P
ah, the OhGod of Hangovers... he comes into being in Hogfather - in removing the Hogfather, the villain has created an excess of unexpressed belief, and we get the Veruca Gnome, the Eater of Socks, and various buzzy insectoids that appear when anyone swears. Pratchett as ever, looks at religion, belief, and the interaction of the two, as a mutually fueling system that is inherently unbalanced and wobbles. A LOT.
The internet is full of people who disagree with us. We were just hanging out and chatting about the things we love, and how we see things. We aren't the arbiters of anything, and just like everyone else, we have our perspectives and try to articulate them as best we can.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
My favorite part of the video: Professor Fireballs expounding on the various types of fireballs one can cast and the sundry methodologies of conjuring them! 😁
AP has a secret cave full of bats, just in case...
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd Or at least a bellfry full.
@@EricMcLuen 🤣
Massive respect to Mr. Erikson
For completing and writing the series
Okay you guys have convinced me to read Malazan, great discussion thank you!
If you need a second opinion, you should definitely read the first book Gardens of the Moon. See of you like it
@@ActionMan153 thanks man will do
@@GiovaniPablo1 maybe read the second one as well (Deadhouse Gates) and then decide if you like it or not 😊 personally, I loved Gardens but Deadhouse opens the world a lot and you get the first taste (not even close to the whole picture) of what’s to come
@@GiovaniPablo1 don't know if you started yet but it's worth keeping with it despite the possible confusion lol. personally, i loved it so much despite the confusion that i felt motivated enough to read it again which helped a lot. it's a confusing book i couldn't understand fully the first time, so please don't feel bad! it's on audible too
just go
Thank you 😊
23:45
a brilliant discussion!
it shows that the importance of studying myth, philosophy and culture is integral to anyone wanting to write in the fantasy genre.
thank you!
"... The poet recoils. All those tales of childhood, the magicks and the witches and wizards, the cursed gems and sacred swords - magic, my young friend, belongs to twin goddesses... I see them still. Name this first one Wonder, and she leads you by the hand into unlikely realms..."
- Fall of Light, ch. 25
Great video! Your conversation reminded me of the Old Lord and Wreneck scenes at the end if this book. Hmm... this is giving me my own video ideas. Thanks again!
Excellent discusion. I really enjoyed it. thank you.
Loved this convo, especially the difference between personal animism and gods, along with religious schisms. It's something I wish more Fantasy and even Scifi authors would tackle more.
This was a incredible conversation. I thought AP’s point on how video games have changed what we expect of certain kinds of magic in storytelling was great. Fascinating as always, thank you both for the time.
I cannot emphasize how much this discussion hits home for me. I've been playing D&D for forty years and love the game to death, but I've never really liked D&D type spell systems in my readings. I've lived with it in some of the books I've enjoyed, but for the most part veered toward the malleable style of magic like the Malazan or the Covenant series reveal. The discussion of how cultures shape magic was fascinating and spot on for me. Great job!!!!
Fascinating conversation - thanks both.
I'm here for the meandering, but I'll take the magic and the Malazan too! 😁
I'm also here for the meandering, so much cool stuff comes out when they go off topic
Damn, I had forgotten how much I enjoyed these. This was so much fun to listen to!
And now the comments 😁. Steve was saying that we, in the West, are only now achieving this ccthonic level of understanding of the world around us, but I don't know that this is necessarily true. I would rather say that we used to have it and that we lost it at some point. And that we are now returning to it. It brings to mind a story from our folklore teacher who went to a folkloric festival at some point during his life and there he met, among other nations, a group from Belgium. Being a curious man, he asked about their traditional clothing and its symbolism (as an aside, our traditional clothes do have meaning, or at least they used to, and the geometrical patterns sewn on them used to tell a story, unique to the weaver). He was interested in particular by the fact that they wore an ear of wheat on their heads ( I hope I used ear correctl here). To his surprise, they had no idea why they did that. The response they gave was that they had seen it in an old painting and they had replicated it for the festival. Then he told them that in our culture, wheat is seen as a symbol of the cycle of life and death, and as such, in a way, or immortality. Life sprouts from the seed, and in giving life, it dies. I guess that through the prism of this story, it would be easy to conclude that there was a point in time where the Belgians too understood the meaning of these symbols, and that everything else they did held a meaning that was now lost to modern man. It's just an alternative point of view.
Then there was something you discussed that drew my attention, and that's the worshipping of dead gods, where people aren't even aware that the god is dead. Or if they are aware, they don't care. I am pretty sure that the worshippers of Meanas knew that there was nobody sitting on the throne of Shadow. That's why there was so much surprise when an occupant showed out of nowhere. And that's a point that has long had my attention. A god may rule temporarily over an aspect, but the god is not its life. The aspect is eternal, the god may not be, and so it feels to me that the books have done a very good job at separating god from realm from aspect. After all, we have aspects with no realm and no god and no worship (Denul being one of them). Take the example of the Tiste Andii. Do they worship Mother Dark, do they unknowingly worship Draconus, or do they worship Elemental Darkness? And is the death of a god even relevant? What does death even constitute for gods? Is Draconus dead, killed by Rake, or is he merely in a state of.... non living? How does his non death impact the power he holds over his domain? And should both he and Mother Dark die for real, would the Tiste Andii stop worshipping Kurald Galain? Nor would Kurald Galain die if its gods are dead, or if there is nobody sitting on its throne. The same could be said for Fener, and Trake, and the Wolves of Winter. So I guess that in worshipping a god, people are worshipping the eternal through them. And the eternal, in these books at least, is the magical aspect.
For last, Steve says that mortals can interfere with the godly realms and cause a mess, and he used Quick Ben as an example, but is Quick Ben truly mortal? That doesn't make his statement incorrect, obviously (it's just me being a smart ass 😋)
Thanks so much for these discussions. I honestly think they're an important part of contemporary discourse regarding fantasy literature.
Reducing magic to technology, like Erikson talked about in the video, is a major issue for me. Stripping the "magic" out of magic (and fantasy as a whole) has become a bigger and bigger annoyance of mine over the past few years. I'm sure I've rambled about this in the past, but I've started reading literary fiction instead of fantasy to get my fix of wonder. It all comes down to taste, etc. etc.--we've all heard the arguments and there's a lot of truth to them. However, I think it's important to push back against many readers' insistence on the importance of magic "systems" as a part of "good" worldbuilding. Maybe I've just had a bad sampling of fantasy readers, but I've noticed increasingly rigid views of what fantasy "is" and how authors "should" write it. They pay lip service to taste and the subjectivity of art and say that authors should do whatever they want, but as soon as they start discussing specific books that all falls away and they get real prescriptive real quick. Similarly, maybe it's just the authors I've read, but I've found that a *lot* of modern fantasy seems to conform to these views.
For me, The Black Company is pretty much the gold standard for magic and worldbuilding, and I have a hard time imagining that book being published today. Maybe I'm a curmudgeonly old bastard at the age of 27, but I'm frustrated. I guess that's why I write, though, since no one else seems to be writing what I want to read. I'm curious to see how fantasy continues to evolve over the coming years, in any case.
Thanks again for the video!
I always love these discussions - I'm so behind because I only want to watch them when I can make sure to pay attention... I don't just want them on as background noise!
Reading House of Chains and it is fucking awesome. Love it! Always great to see this mostly dry Steven laugh here and there, you two definitely seem great buddies.
A fascinating discourse, as always.
Magic and technology are tools, to put it crudely, to solve problems that would otherwise be difficult or outright impossible to achieve by normal strengths or abilities. The one defining difference between them is, while technology is devised by man, magic is a mysterious, otherworldly force which can be manipulated by a few who understand it sufficiently (note, not completely). And, the manner in which an inventor or engineer understands his machinery differs vastly from the way in which a mage understands magic. While the former knows in and out the nuances of his craft and is able to improve upon them, the latter knows only barely enough and is fully aware there is a much vaster knowledge he doesn't possess and never will. Magic, in my opinion, should be this incomprehensible, mysterious force, yet subject to the will of a mage as an infinitesimal section of an ocean is subject to a ship seeking to navigate it.
With the abrupt bloom of these so-called hard magic systems (and this is merely my own observation), modern fantasy unfortunately has been reduced to a scientific or technological tool by which the characters can solve problems. And how do we understand science/technology? By learning and learning and learning. This is why these authors cram their stories with exposition dumps and appendices about the magic system, this losing all its sense of wonder, mystery, mistique, enigma... Magic then becomes formulaic and predictable, which defies the purpose of its existence.
If I wanted such, I would have read a Sci-fi novel instead. But, with magic being a major - if not defining - element of fantasy, I'd say fantasy as a genre is slowly losing its way. This trend of harder magic systems being considered not just an alternative to softer magic systems, but superior to it, is one I find rather absurd. There is a reason the Lord of the Rings and the Malazan Book of the Fallen are the best works of fantasy to have ever existed, and this is because readers (and authors) forget magic isn't all there is to fantasy, even if it is a major element.
your videos are getting me through my flu, thank you for the amazing content and discussions!
Listen to SE analyse his work is always such a joy. Wonderful conversation which gave me a lot of things to think about, both in regards to fantasy/my D&D games and the world at large. Thank you ^^
Always get a warm fuzzy feeling when people call it AD&D. And the mention on Rolemaster which is probably why I didn't find warrens confusing at all from jts magic system.
As mentioned, Malazan also makes use of multiple cultural as well as geographic magic systems/traditions as opposed to having essentially one for the world.
Thank you for the video, AP! It was great!
So following your previous video about hard and soft magic and now this one: In the Malazan world, is it hard magic disguised as soft magic o viceversa? I am sure Steven turned the tables in one situation or another, but I am interested in your take one this.
Thanks for sharing this conversation, I hope your lingering sickness fades soon
This is getting me through my having to go through, ehm, let’s call it The Thing, as is the wont of some friends and colleagues of mine who are thoroughly over it. To call this period The Thing.
We all like to feel safe while we are sleeping. "Locks are for honest people." No surprise that humanity has always requested that deity's and the like "Watch the door" while we sleep. Better safe than sorry~!
It is a great talk these one. During the talk, I wander what are the personal religion of both of you. I can't imagine how to reconcile the knowledge of the believing of different cultures and the beliefs on religion that you both may have. Are you atheists? Best wishes from Mexico! By the way. I am at Dust of Dreams and can see the similitudes from many of the cultures around Lether, near the wastelands, and some of the mexican/american cultures from pre Colombian times. It is just awesome.
Oh boi, story of my life in RPGs... "what if I want a paladin with high dex!?" 🤣🤣🤣
But a clumsy paladin is so much more fun! - DM
This video really made me wish I had a group who were more willing to branch out and try different systems rather than (as Steve said) fighting against 5e's constraints to tell the kind of story we want to. Ah well, a man can dream :P
I never had the chance to play D&D, though I own the handbooks lol
Came here just to learn out how to pronounce "Malazan". Never heard it pronounced the same way on any videos.
I doubt there will ever be a consensus. Whatever makes sense in your head is probably the best pronunciation. 😁
Grey Helms & Grey Swords are the Peoples front of Judea vs the Judeans peoples front of Malaz!
Tiles. Cards. Runts..
ah, the OhGod of Hangovers... he comes into being in Hogfather - in removing the Hogfather, the villain has created an excess of unexpressed belief, and we get the Veruca Gnome, the Eater of Socks, and various buzzy insectoids that appear when anyone swears. Pratchett as ever, looks at religion, belief, and the interaction of the two, as a mutually fueling system that is inherently unbalanced and wobbles. A LOT.
wanna write a book in abroad
I wish you had someone there who disagreed with you guys. I saw a lot of big holes in your points.
The internet is full of people who disagree with us. We were just hanging out and chatting about the things we love, and how we see things. We aren't the arbiters of anything, and just like everyone else, we have our perspectives and try to articulate them as best we can.