The discord an event theory does make a lot of sense. It would still make it so that they are beings created by Illuvitar, at the beginning of time, and are older than Sauron, but would explain why such horrible beings were created in the first place.
I think the nameless things are the result of the corrupted version of the song of Eru Illuvatar orchestrated by Morgoth. What resulted is these twisted creatures. The universe of Eä was created through a great music by Eru Illuvatar, and in this music Illuvatar taught all the ainur spiritrs different part of this theme. Melkor was one of the Ainur. He wanted to create his own music instead of following Illuvatars theme, so this created discords in the music of the ainur. Like this quote. "Out of the discords of the music - that is to say. Not directly out of either of the themes, Eru's or Melkor's, but of their dissonance with regard one to another - evil things started to appear in arda, which did not descend from any direct plan or vision of melkor: they were not 'his children'; and therefore, since all evil hates, they hated him too. The progeniture of things was corrupted" so i think the nameless things are these evil things that the song mentions which was created because not by melkor but of the disharmony/discords of the song so they would hate morgoth even though he is evil. This explains how they are older than sauron and why they are naturally evil while being twisted looking beings.
There is a version in the History of Middle earth about nameless gods older than Melkor and the Valar. There is the dreadful valley in beleriand named Nan Dungortheb where Beren, sorely pressed by Sauron's forces, crossed from north to South. A place where - quote "(...) horror and madness walked". Well, that is the same land identified (in the history of middle earth) as Nan Dungorthin - the land of the dark idols - populated by men that worshipped mysterious nameless deities - quote: "In Nan Dungorthin where nameless gods have shrouded shrines in shadow secret, more old than Morgoth or the Ancient lords the golden Gods of the guarded west". And like Gandalf said: "nameless thing older than Sauron". It's possible that this nameless things are products of Music of the Ainur: "(...) and the music and the echoe of the Music went out into the Void, and it was not void". Or, the Void before the creation was an another dimension filled with lovecraftian gods/monsters older than Ainur.
@@DarthGandalfYT Was Tolkien aware of Lovecraft's work or perhaps both gentlemen had access to ancient knowledge if not an atavic memory we humans cannot get rid off?
Angband had a huge network of tunnels under Beleriand and Middle Earth. Thats how the Balrog espaced the war of wrath and ended up beneath Caradhras. It's possible that the nameless things created the tunnels for Morgoth.
Pretty much all these creatures (including Bombadil) can be attributed to The Music of the Ainur. I do like the thought of Ungoliant scrabbling over the ramparts from the void - why shouldn't she be special.
I see Tolkien as playing around with the genre of Lovecraftian horror and including this because it was cool to him. Concepts like nameless things too horrific to speak of are very Lovecraftian. There are some issues with chronology (Lovecraft himself died in 1947) but there are plenty of other writers in the genre, and I would say Tolkien was influenced by their work if not actively emulating them. We do have later evidence Tolkien read The Doom That Came To Sarnath because he commented on it.
It's not just Lovecraft but the genre: Howard, Ashton Smith, Derleth. Tolkien was in the prime of his life while weird tales pulp fiction was popular. He had to have absorbed a little of it. I see now my typo for 1937.
There's a theory that says that those creatures might be created from te discordant music of the ainur, as Eru said that the music is what shaped arda, but nor the Valar nor Melkor knew about those "unwanted products" created from the discordance of the music. In my opinion thats the only convincing theory
I always thought of the Nameless things as creations of Melkor made through the discord of the music. Not things he intentionally created but manifestations of the discord he created.
Ahh yes your write. It’s quite ambitious and it’s hard to tell if it’s talking about the same beings but it is another interesting bit of lore. That some beings and a creatures got trapped in the darkness and cold until they became completely unrecognizable from what they once had been.
I remember being fascinated about these after watching a Geekzone video and then I was casually playing Lotro one day and came to the Foundations of Stone and let’s just say I never went back. Not even for deeds.
I love this series. I'll just go with the Discord theory. Since Melkor can't create but only corrupt, he could "create" them through the discord he produced in the Music of the Ainur.
The thing about the Nameless Things that I think a lot of people skim over is that Gandalf and the Balrog were both terrified by what they saw and immediately ran away from them. The Balrog probably stumbled upon then at some point in the distant past and had a bad experience but Gandalf was seeing something utterly new. Considering they're both angelic beings, whatever the Nameless Creatures are they can't be of this world.
Where does it say that the balrog feared them? When he “fled” he was fleeing from Gandalf, or just trying to make him stay lost under the earth forever, since the balrog was the only one who knew the way out(showing that he was familiar with the area)
The implication from the passage as I understand it, was that the orcs had not gone that deep but the Balrog for sure had explored the deep tunnels. He just didn't stay down there. The fact that Gandalf "clings to his heel" says to me it's not that the Balrog was fleeing the nameless things. Rather the balrog's fire, and light, even a wicked fire, was enough to keep the nameless things at bay. If they exist in the depths of the world in total darkness it'd make sense to me they do not like light of any kind very much. Plus I think diminishing the highest order of beings, the ainur, doesn't fit with Tolkien's intentions nor his Catholic influences. Which he admitted bled in regardless of his initial intent.
The Nameless things were older than Sauron. We must ask a question if they were older than Melkor as well? One possible answer is yours, that they were created by him before Sauron came. But if they were older than Melkor that means that they were created during Ainulindalë when Melkor and all other Ainur were in Timeless Halls where time is no counted, that's why Nameless things may be older than all Ainur.
I think it is very much likely that they were in fact older than Melkor, as Tolkien had a similar concept of nameless godlike creatures in the Book of Lost Tales written in the 1920s. The only difference is that they live in Nan Dungortheb, not underground, and they are explicitly stated to be older than both the Valar and Melkor. Though these are early writings, this suggests that there may have been nameless things higher above ground, and that they were older than Melkor.
When a master musician starts to tune their instrument, before the structure of the music itself, there are old, nameless sounds... unholy creaking of worn leather cases, disfigured and discoloured metal hinges, the unintentional scraping of finger over string. With an entire orchestra tuning, believe me, many nameless things are created, none intended to be part of the performance.
Loved the video. I personally believe that the music of the Ainur. Was the cause of there creation. Morgoths music and Erus music combines to make them.
@@elliotcrossan6290 that's my biggest hope about the upcoming show, there's an opportunity to show completely new lands and peoples... It could be fascinating. especially since Tolkien had drafts of a story about how Men of Middle Earth perceived Numenoreans...
@@elliotcrossan6290 that's my biggest hope about the upcoming show, there's an opportunity to show completely new lands and peoples... It could be fascinating. especially since Tolkien had drafts of a story about how Men of Middle Earth perceived Numenoreans...
Could you imagine? "I smote my foe and we fell down to the bottom of the mountain, where Betty and Joe and Harrison Blake were gnawing at the roots of the world."
"And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them." -- Genesis 25:26 "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." -- Romans 9:13 Before now, I never noticed that in Gandalf's story. Basically, from the point of view of Catholic typology, Gandalf was a type of Jacob=Israel, who had a good relationship with God, whereas the Balrog was a type of Esau, who had a poor relationship with God. But then, Israel is also a type of Christ, as is Gandalf, as we see a few sentences later in his story.
Giant spider makes me imagine to feed spiders bones of elephants(powdered). Maybe as milk. Sometimes it is like Live(the voice) at pace to my writing, maybe triggered moment(or suntricity at ease) - a soundwave released causing ease to write like a Manipulation maybe, a harassment to decide our life like our decision and choice.
Nameless things might be referenced in the Hobbit as well, in the song of the Dwarves it says, 'In places deep, where dark things sleep/ in hallow halls beneath the fells.' What were these 'dark things'? Could there be nameless things under Erebor as well? This was a cool video. Thank you for making it. The nameless things are such an interesting aspect of Tolkien's work
I think it most likely they were creatures Morgoth corrupted from creatures created when Arda was brought into being but Morgoth decided they were unsuitable for his needs. Some were able to flee and hide deep underground.
Could they not be related to the corruptive dissonant music of Melkor during the creation of Middle Earth? Eru stopped them all when Melkor's dissonance grew to the point of overwhelming everything, at which point Eru unveiled Middle Earth to them all. Melkor's dissonance is part of Middle Earth, and won't be fixed until it's remade after the last battle. Unitl then, those dark and evil elements introduced by Melkor's dissonance are part of the world.
What if the Nameless Things were beings like Ungoliant and Tom Bombadil that were created by the Discord of Melkor but the Nameless Things were also allied with Morgoth at first and they dug all the tunnels under Angband and Utumno
Tolkien Doing the nameless things in his works shows at how dark his world is. Every time I think of being a human in middle earth I am reminded by one horror or another which reminds me that no living on this planet is actually a good thing
Allow me to present an alternate point of view. The Nameless Things aren't evil at all. They are just different. Gandalf may not have wanted to "darken the light of day" by talking about them because they were unsightly and unlikely to be loved by surface dwellers, but that doesn't mean evil. If they dwelt far below the surface and not even Sauron knew of them, than they couldn't possibly have ever been used by him for evil. Dwelling below the surface, they couldn't have possibly have interacted with the peoples of Arda either positively or negatively. In short, they have never harmed anyone where they are. Perhaps they serve a natural purpose deep below the Earth as designed by Eru. Maybe they were innocent beings corrupted by Morgoth, and were so appalled by their own mutation that they rejected Morgoth and buried themselves far below the Earth in shame so that no one would ever find them. Maybe Gandalf is appalled to speak of them because he feels great shame and pity for them, as is befitting his personality. My point is, a more compassionate mindset in examining these kinds of questions seems appropriate to me. Different does not mean Evil.
These two theories are probably the most likely to be true... I'd even say it's possible that they could be both true, in a sense. See, I really dig the idea that the Nameless Things are derived from the original act of Creation of the World... and since Melkor disrupted the Song, maybe the ripples of his discord could have led to the unwanted birth of creatures. Not sentient beings, maybe not even animal-like, but shadows incarnate, taking the matter of Arda to clothe their emptiness with hideous, distorted bodies...
I see others gleaning on to my similar thought. When the music of creation was being made, Melkor's music was discord and dissonant and some of the other Ainur followed that for a time before being stopped by Illuvatar. I think that Melkor's discordant music would be the source of nameless and Ungoliant among other elder horrors. It wouldn't be a direct creation, but a byproduct which was then made into creation by Illuvatar in the formation of Arda. Not all discordant sounds would have necessarily resulted in evil beings. Some discordant sounds can be neutral and I think that's where Tom Bombadil comes in. So, my opinion is that they were the byproducts of the discordance ushered into Arda through Illuvatar's publishing the music that was already made rather than consciously made beings by Melkor.
“The greatest emotion is fear, and the greatest fear of man is the fear of the unknown.” -H.P. Lovecraft. I’m paraphrasing, but that line is what comes to mind when I think of, read about, or hear about the Nameless Things.
Maybe its simpler than all that - Gandalf simply doesn't know what the nameless things are called because very few beings have ever seen them and lived to tell the tale, or that they are so awful nobody stuck around long enough to think up names for them. They could possibly have some vital function in the maintenance of the rock that forms the basis of the world and Eru and the Valar never named them or told anybody about them because they never intended for any other beings to be able to enter into their domain, so unlikely it is for anything to have survived the fall into the depths where they dwelt. I'd imagine apart from a select few Valar and Maiar (such as Aule who definitely would have known about them - perhaps he created them) nobody knew they existed. Maybe they became evil because of how much of Morgoth's evil was used to taint the fabric of which the world was made (primarily rock) but were originally just a neutral class of creatures that perform some function in the roots of Arda.
I've heard that the Nameless Things were created by the discord of the Music caused by Morgoth and those who started singing with him. That explanation makes sense since the Music is what created everything and something must have come of the discord.
You know shit is bad if Gandalf says that his only hope of escaping those unimaginable dungeons and creatures was a Balrog he was fighting just seconds ago.
I personally think that ungoliant is one of the nameless things- natural creatures that were attuned to darkness and chaos, and thus fell under the influence of morgoth... though he did not create them, and they are not loyal to him, they exist in his shadow nonetheless, and are sort of "instinctively" evil, rather than the sort of "calculated" evil that morgoth / sauron were trying to cultivate. If the story of ungoliant is any indicator, nameless things are probably too feral and single-minded to be useful, and even if they did as ordered there is no gurantee of retaining their loyalty once the deed is done. It is my personal theory though that morgoth may have still imprisioned such creatures in Angband or Utumno, but rather than using them as minions he was using them as part of his experiments to create new forms of life, such as dragons
They were created From the Music of the Ainur like Tom Bombadil was when Melkor/Morgoth introduced discord in the Music at the beginning of the universe The nameless things were created as a side effect From the chaos and corruption in the music that he sang In the disruption they were born And Eiu allowed this discord saying it served its purpose and was all part of the plan Which angered Melkor/Morgoth
My theory is that they were created by Morgoth but after Ungoliant betrayed him and tried to eat him, Morgoth was fearful of the nameless things so he buried them as deep as he could.
Arda was created by a song. While the song was being performed, Melkor kept trying to subvert it. His dark dissonant themes, in my mind, is what caused the unnamed things to exist. They are part of his dissonance. Tom Bombadil was Eru's answer, when he wove new themes in to counter Melkor's attempts at subversion. This would explain why Sauron was unaware of the nameless things and how Tom was there before even the first trees. If all of the rest of Arda was from the song, why not nameless things and Tom Bombadil?
I wonder if: when Illuvitar calls upon his power to shape the earth (like the drowning of Numenor or the breaking of Beleriand) it is these creatures he calls upon?
What is the video bits in the video from? It looks like a video game but I just don't recognize it. Love your content, just discovered your channel and it's great!
The nameless things are the Entwives. Gandalf can’t name them so the Ents don’t go looking for them underground. The Entwives were punished by the god of middle earth and caste underground forever. Their sin: being so bitchy to their husbands: “stop going out and roaming through the forest and doing the things you love”. “Stay home and give my knobby toes a foot rub, they are so sore from gardening”. “Actually do the gardening for me”.
As some others have pointed out, they could be the result of the discord introduced into the song of the ainur by Melkor's theme; I personally however believe them to be the oldest creations of Melkor. Melkor went to Arda to create after all and not only create the world as he saw fit, but to create living things. My guess is, that these nameless things were Melkor figuring out how to animate his own creations when he first entered Arda. We also know that Melkor was the one that built up the misty mountains in the first place and that he swayed more of the ainur than just the later Balrogs and Sauron to his side. Those tunnels might well be part of Utumno's original structure or extensions of it. Without the flame imperishable, things can't exist on their own, but unlike the orcs, trolls and dragons aren't corrupted versions of other things, but things animated by the fell power of Melkor or possessed by other spirits. If I remember correctly, trolls were orininally made from stone (just like the dwarves) and animated by summoned spirits and other similar beings (thus why they turn back to stone when exposed to the sun), while dragons are literal pieces of Melkor himself, ripped off from his being and placed into new bodies. This is something that only Melkor seems capable off, as we never see Sauron even attempt it beyond the one ring and likely the reason why Melkor lost so much of his power between the destruction of the lanterns and the battle of powers. He lost that battle whereas he had won the previous battles and this would explain the difference. The timeline would also fit, if Sauron came to Arda and joined Melkor during the later stages of that time.
I wonder if this was a small shout-out to H.P. Lovecraft? Ungoliant and the Nameless Things sound very much like Eldritch Abominations, just a small taste of Cosmic Horror.
I’d like to think they’re just part of the bigger ecosystem. Horrible to behold perhaps, but ultimately neutral. Nameless things in nameless places that nobody normally has any need to venture to. Similar to If a megalodon still swam the ocean, it probably wouldn’t even consider a human a snack. You’d just be a bit of debris to swim past.
Why are we assuming the nameless things are evil? The most we know is that they hang out down below, don't bother anyone, and they're scary. They could just be animals.
What makes them evil? They just seem to be minding their own business gnawing the Earth far below where no one can reach them. The Watcher may have just been hungry. We don't call sharks or tigers evil when they attack humans to eat.
I always looked at them as primordial beings, incomplete and probably made worse by the discord in the creation music but iam not sure about this very likely physical manifestations of nothingness and chaos hence why they are gnawing at the borders of existence. There is an outside the universe aspect to them, Ungoliant sure sounds like an elder chaos God but she is different to all the other gods and creatures, she is just unconscious hunger, they represent just pure animalistic emotions, there is this element of "awakening" to consciousness in Tolkien themes, Melkor and Sauron are sure evil but they are conscious. Morgoth probably knew of some of them and probably experimented on them who knows. I mean Tolkien probably read some cosmic horror, and he probably was well read on stuff like gnosticism so yeah.
Wasn't there an idea or a theory that they kinda just happened as a side effect? So far away from gaze of the gods, but there are still residual forces at play so these things just happened.
There is the idea that they are the side effects of Morgoth's own tampering with the Music, but that would still imply that they were ultimately created by Iluvatar, unless Morgoth created them after he came to Arda.
@@DarthGandalfYTcould one interpret it as a side effect of tampering, period? Sort of like a butterfly effect. The world was being built, Morgoth did his thing, and as he did the "slag" just seeped in deeper and deeper. Plausible?
How can anything be older than Melkor when he is one of the oldest of the Valar and the second or third thing created? Doesn't this mean whatever they are are as old as Iru that existed with him in the void before creation?
This is where it gets tricky because Time as a concept doesn't technically exist outside of Ea. So a way of technically explaining how the Nameless Things are older than Melkor/Sauron is that they were on Arda first. Although Melkor/Sauron were created before them, they were not privy to time until they entered Ea.
@@planersage1117 I like to think that adventure time does a good job answering this. "Before there was time, before there was anything, there was nothing, and before there was nothing, there were monsters".
My favorite bro, ME Mysteries series amazing content thanks :) I dont know but there might be way more mysteries to uncover man, dont let this fall :) i could do a list for you if u want About nameless things, im in the opinion that were created by the Ainur in the music, probably by Melkor when Arda was created, he secretly put them there x)
you must be the only speculator on youtube here who even entertains the idea that the nameless things have a completely seperate origin from everyone/thing else. The others don't even seem to entertain the idea and I met a few who were manically against the very idea.
I think the Void idea has merit. John Milton characterizes the original Chaos from which the universe was created as having sentient beings, as they allow Satan to travel their realm to the newly created Eden. Although his Catholic theology was a bit different than Milton's, Tolkien may have had a similar idea, only with the Void standing in for Chaos.
Namless Thing One and Namless Thing Two, Namless Thing Two and Nameless Thing One. They can find anything, anything, anything under the sun. I'm afraid Gandalf found a way to the dr. Seuss universe.
I think youn are not giving bombadil a good look. Since Gandalf is not in awe of him and ends up going to have a long talk, it is generally accepted bombadil is a mia like Melian who came into middle earth when it was made and fell inl ove with it. goldberry-the river god's daughter is far more of a mystery
There is also the theory they are the inevitable result of the discordance introduced into the Music of the Ainur by Melkor.
That’s what i subscribe to! It’s the only thing that makes perfect sense, and checks all the boxes!
I have liked the discordance theory.
I’m pretty sure this is the most likely explanation. I would guess this is how they were created. Also weren’t there a few discordance in the music?
yeah, that was kind of my thought as well
The discord an event theory does make a lot of sense. It would still make it so that they are beings created by Illuvitar, at the beginning of time, and are older than Sauron, but would explain why such horrible beings were created in the first place.
I think the nameless things are the result of the corrupted version of the song of Eru Illuvatar orchestrated by Morgoth. What resulted is these twisted creatures.
The universe of Eä was created through a great music by Eru Illuvatar, and in this music Illuvatar taught all the ainur spiritrs different part of this theme. Melkor was one of the Ainur. He wanted to create his own music instead of following Illuvatars theme, so this created discords in the music of the ainur.
Like this quote.
"Out of the discords of the music - that is to say. Not directly out of either of the themes, Eru's or Melkor's, but of their dissonance with regard one to another - evil things started to appear in arda, which did not descend from any direct plan or vision of melkor: they were not 'his children'; and therefore, since all evil hates, they hated him too. The progeniture of things was corrupted"
so i think the nameless things are these evil things that the song mentions which was created because not by melkor but of the disharmony/discords of the song so they would hate morgoth even though he is evil.
This explains how they are older than sauron and why they are naturally evil while being twisted looking beings.
There is a version in the History of Middle earth about nameless gods older than Melkor and the Valar. There is the dreadful valley in beleriand named Nan Dungortheb where Beren, sorely pressed by Sauron's forces, crossed from north to South. A place where - quote "(...) horror and madness walked". Well, that is the same land identified (in the history of middle earth) as Nan Dungorthin - the land of the dark idols - populated by men that worshipped mysterious nameless deities - quote:
"In Nan Dungorthin where nameless gods have shrouded shrines in shadow secret, more old than Morgoth or the Ancient lords the golden Gods of the guarded west".
And like Gandalf said: "nameless thing older than Sauron". It's possible that this nameless things are products of Music of the Ainur: "(...) and the music and the echoe of the Music went out into the Void, and it was not void". Or, the Void before the creation was an another dimension filled with lovecraftian gods/monsters older than Ainur.
I actually forgot about this passage, and how ominous it is. It's one of those things I wish Tolkien expanded on.
wow .. were exactly is that passage?
@@lukaskoch2508 It's in the Tale of Tinuviel in the Book of Lost Tales II.
@@DarthGandalfYT Thank you very much.
@@DarthGandalfYT Was Tolkien aware of Lovecraft's work or perhaps both gentlemen had access to ancient knowledge if not an atavic memory we humans cannot get rid off?
Angband had a huge network of tunnels under Beleriand and Middle Earth.
Thats how the Balrog espaced the war of wrath and ended up beneath Caradhras.
It's possible that the nameless things created the tunnels for Morgoth.
What I can most definitely say about the Nameless Things is:
1) They are things;
2) They don't have names.
There is a possibility that Melkor created them when he caused the discord in Eru's music during the creation of Arda.
Pretty much all these creatures (including Bombadil) can be attributed to The Music of the Ainur. I do like the thought of Ungoliant scrabbling over the ramparts from the void - why shouldn't she be special.
I see Tolkien as playing around with the genre of Lovecraftian horror and including this because it was cool to him. Concepts like nameless things too horrific to speak of are very Lovecraftian. There are some issues with chronology (Lovecraft himself died in 1947) but there are plenty of other writers in the genre, and I would say Tolkien was influenced by their work if not actively emulating them. We do have later evidence Tolkien read The Doom That Came To Sarnath because he commented on it.
Lovecraft died in 1937
@@franciscosaez7953 But Tolkien started writing the Silmarillion around 1916...
It's not just Lovecraft but the genre: Howard, Ashton Smith, Derleth. Tolkien was in the prime of his life while weird tales pulp fiction was popular. He had to have absorbed a little of it. I see now my typo for 1937.
@@apstrike as far I know, he only read Howard and others American pulp authors, a small amount of tales
Besides, if he hyped them up too much they would be far more interesting than the threat of Sauron and the ring.
I like the idea that Morgoth created them, was disappointed, and so buried them at the bottom of the world
Since Tolkien expressed regret later at naming trolls William, Tom, and Bert, he likely did not want to assign names to these things. 😉
There's a theory that says that those creatures might be created from te discordant music of the ainur, as Eru said that the music is what shaped arda, but nor the Valar nor Melkor knew about those "unwanted products" created from the discordance of the music.
In my opinion thats the only convincing theory
I think they came from the disharmony in the music of the ainur by melkor
I always thought of the Nameless things as creations of Melkor made through the discord of the music. Not things he intentionally created but manifestations of the discord he created.
There is a bigger reference to the nameless things in The Hobbit, during the chapter in which Bilbo is near Gollum's lake.
What reference?
@@gageshippy2256, It's too big to transcribe. But it's in chapter 5, I believe.
Ahh yes your write. It’s quite ambitious and it’s hard to tell if it’s talking about the same beings but it is another interesting bit of lore. That some beings and a creatures got trapped in the darkness and cold until they became completely unrecognizable from what they once had been.
I remember being fascinated about these after watching a Geekzone video and then I was casually playing Lotro one day and came to the Foundations of Stone and let’s just say I never went back. Not even for deeds.
It's one of the more horrific zones in the game, that's for certain.
I love this series.
I'll just go with the Discord theory. Since Melkor can't create but only corrupt, he could "create" them through the discord he produced in the Music of the Ainur.
That picture of ungoliant with the human arms all over her is proof that the Lord of the Rings can do horror just as well as any other
The thing about the Nameless Things that I think a lot of people skim over is that Gandalf and the Balrog were both terrified by what they saw and immediately ran away from them. The Balrog probably stumbled upon then at some point in the distant past and had a bad experience but Gandalf was seeing something utterly new. Considering they're both angelic beings, whatever the Nameless Creatures are they can't be of this world.
Where does it say that the balrog feared them? When he “fled” he was fleeing from Gandalf, or just trying to make him stay lost under the earth forever, since the balrog was the only one who knew the way out(showing that he was familiar with the area)
The implication from the passage as I understand it, was that the orcs had not gone that deep but the Balrog for sure had explored the deep tunnels. He just didn't stay down there. The fact that Gandalf "clings to his heel" says to me it's not that the Balrog was fleeing the nameless things. Rather the balrog's fire, and light, even a wicked fire, was enough to keep the nameless things at bay. If they exist in the depths of the world in total darkness it'd make sense to me they do not like light of any kind very much.
Plus I think diminishing the highest order of beings, the ainur, doesn't fit with Tolkien's intentions nor his Catholic influences. Which he admitted bled in regardless of his initial intent.
The Nameless things were older than Sauron. We must ask a question if they were older than Melkor as well? One possible answer is yours, that they were created by him before Sauron came. But if they were older than Melkor that means that they were created during Ainulindalë when Melkor and all other Ainur were in Timeless Halls where time is no counted, that's why Nameless things may be older than all Ainur.
I think it is very much likely that they were in fact older than Melkor, as Tolkien had a similar concept of nameless godlike creatures in the Book of Lost Tales written in the 1920s. The only difference is that they live in Nan Dungortheb, not underground, and they are explicitly stated to be older than both the Valar and Melkor. Though these are early writings, this suggests that there may have been nameless things higher above ground, and that they were older than Melkor.
When a master musician starts to tune their instrument, before the structure of the music itself, there are old, nameless sounds... unholy creaking of worn leather cases, disfigured and discoloured metal hinges, the unintentional scraping of finger over string. With an entire orchestra tuning, believe me, many nameless things are created, none intended to be part of the performance.
Loved the video. I personally believe that the music of the Ainur. Was the cause of there creation. Morgoths music and Erus music combines to make them.
Have you done a video on the lands east of the map of middle earth? I always found the geography intresting, and that area is a mystery
Same! There's so much we don't know about these regions beyond the Sea of Rhûn...
I wish we knew more about Rhûn and Harad
@@elliotcrossan6290 that's my biggest hope about the upcoming show, there's an opportunity to show completely new lands and peoples... It could be fascinating.
especially since Tolkien had drafts of a story about how Men of Middle Earth perceived Numenoreans...
@@elliotcrossan6290 that's my biggest hope about the upcoming show, there's an opportunity to show completely new lands and peoples... It could be fascinating.
especially since Tolkien had drafts of a story about how Men of Middle Earth perceived Numenoreans...
Could you imagine? "I smote my foe and we fell down to the bottom of the mountain, where Betty and Joe and Harrison Blake were gnawing at the roots of the world."
It sounds like Tolkien was experimenting with some Lovecraft concepts.
This is a super interesting video, thanks for making this!
"And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them." -- Genesis 25:26
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." -- Romans 9:13
Before now, I never noticed that in Gandalf's story.
Basically, from the point of view of Catholic typology, Gandalf was a type of Jacob=Israel, who had a good relationship with God, whereas the Balrog was a type of Esau, who had a poor relationship with God. But then, Israel is also a type of Christ, as is Gandalf, as we see a few sentences later in his story.
Giant spider makes me imagine to feed spiders bones of elephants(powdered). Maybe as milk. Sometimes it is like Live(the voice) at pace to my writing, maybe triggered moment(or suntricity at ease) - a soundwave released causing ease to write like a Manipulation maybe, a harassment to decide our life like our decision and choice.
Nameless things might be referenced in the Hobbit as well, in the song of the Dwarves it says, 'In places deep, where dark things sleep/ in hallow halls beneath the fells.'
What were these 'dark things'? Could there be nameless things under Erebor as well?
This was a cool video. Thank you for making it. The nameless things are such an interesting aspect of Tolkien's work
Also they carved out Gollum's cave beneath Goblin Town.
didn't even occur to me until this video that there were Seven Dwarves
The Hobbit was published the same year the Disney movie was released.
I think it most likely they were creatures Morgoth corrupted from creatures created when Arda was brought into being but Morgoth decided they were unsuitable for his needs. Some were able to flee and hide deep underground.
Could they not be related to the corruptive dissonant music of Melkor during the creation of Middle Earth? Eru stopped them all when Melkor's dissonance grew to the point of overwhelming everything, at which point Eru unveiled Middle Earth to them all. Melkor's dissonance is part of Middle Earth, and won't be fixed until it's remade after the last battle. Unitl then, those dark and evil elements introduced by Melkor's dissonance are part of the world.
Totally epic "mishearing" by YT captions at 2:37: Eru Iluvatar is none other than Louis Vuitton.
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Well have you ever seen Iluvatar and Louis Vuitton in the same place?
I think the idea that they are like ungoilant as insome sort of primordial chaos is to me the most fascinating
The level of detail in LOTR world is just amazing.
What if the Nameless Things were beings like Ungoliant and Tom Bombadil that were created by the Discord of Melkor but the Nameless Things were also allied with Morgoth at first and they dug all the tunnels under Angband and Utumno
Video idea; Middle-Earth Mysteries The Last Desert.
Tolkien Doing the nameless things in his works shows at how dark his world is. Every time I think of being a human in middle earth I am reminded by one horror or another which reminds me that no living on this planet is actually a good thing
Plot twist: It’s the same planet.
Allow me to present an alternate point of view. The Nameless Things aren't evil at all. They are just different. Gandalf may not have wanted to "darken the light of day" by talking about them because they were unsightly and unlikely to be loved by surface dwellers, but that doesn't mean evil. If they dwelt far below the surface and not even Sauron knew of them, than they couldn't possibly have ever been used by him for evil. Dwelling below the surface, they couldn't have possibly have interacted with the peoples of Arda either positively or negatively. In short, they have never harmed anyone where they are. Perhaps they serve a natural purpose deep below the Earth as designed by Eru. Maybe they were innocent beings corrupted by Morgoth, and were so appalled by their own mutation that they rejected Morgoth and buried themselves far below the Earth in shame so that no one would ever find them. Maybe Gandalf is appalled to speak of them because he feels great shame and pity for them, as is befitting his personality.
My point is, a more compassionate mindset in examining these kinds of questions seems appropriate to me. Different does not mean Evil.
I actually like this theory but what about the watcher?
These two theories are probably the most likely to be true... I'd even say it's possible that they could be both true, in a sense.
See, I really dig the idea that the Nameless Things are derived from the original act of Creation of the World... and since Melkor disrupted the Song, maybe the ripples of his discord could have led to the unwanted birth of creatures. Not sentient beings, maybe not even animal-like, but shadows incarnate, taking the matter of Arda to clothe their emptiness with hideous, distorted bodies...
My headcanon is that they’re just all sorts of demons that ran from the Valar when they ripped open Utumno and they just never stopped digging deeper
Alternate theory: the nameless things don't exist, and Gandalf only mentioned them to dissuade the dwarves from delving any deeper
I see others gleaning on to my similar thought. When the music of creation was being made, Melkor's music was discord and dissonant and some of the other Ainur followed that for a time before being stopped by Illuvatar. I think that Melkor's discordant music would be the source of nameless and Ungoliant among other elder horrors. It wouldn't be a direct creation, but a byproduct which was then made into creation by Illuvatar in the formation of Arda. Not all discordant sounds would have necessarily resulted in evil beings. Some discordant sounds can be neutral and I think that's where Tom Bombadil comes in. So, my opinion is that they were the byproducts of the discordance ushered into Arda through Illuvatar's publishing the music that was already made rather than consciously made beings by Melkor.
“The greatest emotion is fear, and the greatest fear of man is the fear of the unknown.”
-H.P. Lovecraft.
I’m paraphrasing, but that line is what comes to mind when I think of, read about, or hear about the Nameless Things.
Maybe its simpler than all that - Gandalf simply doesn't know what the nameless things are called because very few beings have ever seen them and lived to tell the tale, or that they are so awful nobody stuck around long enough to think up names for them. They could possibly have some vital function in the maintenance of the rock that forms the basis of the world and Eru and the Valar never named them or told anybody about them because they never intended for any other beings to be able to enter into their domain, so unlikely it is for anything to have survived the fall into the depths where they dwelt. I'd imagine apart from a select few Valar and Maiar (such as Aule who definitely would have known about them - perhaps he created them) nobody knew they existed. Maybe they became evil because of how much of Morgoth's evil was used to taint the fabric of which the world was made (primarily rock) but were originally just a neutral class of creatures that perform some function in the roots of Arda.
I've heard that the Nameless Things were created by the discord of the Music caused by Morgoth and those who started singing with him. That explanation makes sense since the Music is what created everything and something must have come of the discord.
You know shit is bad if Gandalf says that his only hope of escaping those unimaginable dungeons and creatures was a Balrog he was fighting just seconds ago.
whatever they are they can chew through rock like a worm can move through soil... best to just leave them alone...
The old, nameless and very Dark things....
The nameless things were created during the music of the ainur when Melkor was creating discord in the music.
I hope we see a glimpse of them in the new Hunt for Gollum film.
Introductions yes i imagine they are tricky
I personally think that ungoliant is one of the nameless things- natural creatures that were attuned to darkness and chaos, and thus fell under the influence of morgoth... though he did not create them, and they are not loyal to him, they exist in his shadow nonetheless, and are sort of "instinctively" evil, rather than the sort of "calculated" evil that morgoth / sauron were trying to cultivate. If the story of ungoliant is any indicator, nameless things are probably too feral and single-minded to be useful, and even if they did as ordered there is no gurantee of retaining their loyalty once the deed is done. It is my personal theory though that morgoth may have still imprisioned such creatures in Angband or Utumno, but rather than using them as minions he was using them as part of his experiments to create new forms of life, such as dragons
My theory is they were around before Eru.
Which is a disturbing thought.
Yeah,I don't remember ever reading in silmarilion that Eru was the only thing present in the beginning.
In the words of the Horta: No Kill I
They were created From the
Music of the Ainur like Tom Bombadil was when Melkor/Morgoth introduced discord in the Music at the beginning of the universe The nameless things were created as a side effect
From the chaos and corruption in the music that he sang
In the disruption they were born
And Eiu allowed this discord saying it served its purpose and was all part of the plan
Which angered Melkor/Morgoth
My theory is that they were created by Morgoth but after Ungoliant betrayed him and tried to eat him, Morgoth was fearful of the nameless things so he buried them as deep as he could.
Interesting video.
Arda was created by a song. While the song was being performed, Melkor kept trying to subvert it. His dark dissonant themes, in my mind, is what caused the unnamed things to exist. They are part of his dissonance. Tom Bombadil was Eru's answer, when he wove new themes in to counter Melkor's attempts at subversion. This would explain why Sauron was unaware of the nameless things and how Tom was there before even the first trees. If all of the rest of Arda was from the song, why not nameless things and Tom Bombadil?
I am personally a fan of an embodiment of the void/primordial chaos, if only if it is because that’s an idea I toy with while worldbuilding
I wonder if: when Illuvitar calls upon his power to shape the earth (like the drowning of Numenor or the breaking of Beleriand) it is these creatures he calls upon?
the very best summary of the topic!
What is the video bits in the video from? It looks like a video game but I just don't recognize it. Love your content, just discovered your channel and it's great!
The nameless things are the Entwives. Gandalf can’t name them so the Ents don’t go looking for them underground. The Entwives were punished by the god of middle earth and caste underground forever. Their sin: being so bitchy to their husbands: “stop going out and roaming through the forest and doing the things you love”. “Stay home and give my knobby toes a foot rub, they are so sore from gardening”. “Actually do the gardening for me”.
As some others have pointed out, they could be the result of the discord introduced into the song of the ainur by Melkor's theme; I personally however believe them to be the oldest creations of Melkor. Melkor went to Arda to create after all and not only create the world as he saw fit, but to create living things. My guess is, that these nameless things were Melkor figuring out how to animate his own creations when he first entered Arda. We also know that Melkor was the one that built up the misty mountains in the first place and that he swayed more of the ainur than just the later Balrogs and Sauron to his side. Those tunnels might well be part of Utumno's original structure or extensions of it.
Without the flame imperishable, things can't exist on their own, but unlike the orcs, trolls and dragons aren't corrupted versions of other things, but things animated by the fell power of Melkor or possessed by other spirits. If I remember correctly, trolls were orininally made from stone (just like the dwarves) and animated by summoned spirits and other similar beings (thus why they turn back to stone when exposed to the sun), while dragons are literal pieces of Melkor himself, ripped off from his being and placed into new bodies. This is something that only Melkor seems capable off, as we never see Sauron even attempt it beyond the one ring and likely the reason why Melkor lost so much of his power between the destruction of the lanterns and the battle of powers. He lost that battle whereas he had won the previous battles and this would explain the difference. The timeline would also fit, if Sauron came to Arda and joined Melkor during the later stages of that time.
I wonder if this was a small shout-out to H.P. Lovecraft? Ungoliant and the Nameless Things sound very much like Eldritch Abominations, just a small taste of Cosmic Horror.
I’d like to think they’re just part of the bigger ecosystem. Horrible to behold perhaps, but ultimately neutral. Nameless things in nameless places that nobody normally has any need to venture to. Similar to If a megalodon still swam the ocean, it probably wouldn’t even consider a human a snack. You’d just be a bit of debris to swim past.
Why are we assuming the nameless things are evil? The most we know is that they hang out down below, don't bother anyone, and they're scary. They could just be animals.
The nameless things are a byproduct of the discord of melkor in the song of creation
I wonder if tolkien was inspired by hp lovecraft this seems like something he would make
They are creatures of the void like ungoliant. They were trapped when the world was formed out of the void.
What makes them evil? They just seem to be minding their own business gnawing the Earth far below where no one can reach them. The Watcher may have just been hungry. We don't call sharks or tigers evil when they attack humans to eat.
The Nameless Fings.
i liked the lotro interpretations of the nameless things :)
I always looked at them as primordial beings, incomplete and probably made worse by the discord in the creation music but iam not sure about this very likely physical manifestations of nothingness and chaos hence why they are gnawing at the borders of existence. There is an outside the universe aspect to them, Ungoliant sure sounds like an elder chaos God but she is different to all the other gods and creatures, she is just unconscious hunger, they represent just pure animalistic emotions, there is this element of "awakening" to consciousness in Tolkien themes, Melkor and Sauron are sure evil but they are conscious. Morgoth probably knew of some of them and probably experimented on them who knows. I mean Tolkien probably read some cosmic horror, and he probably was well read on stuff like gnosticism so yeah.
'What about the Droid Attack on the Ent Wifes?'
They were probably maia who went to Arda of their own will and then hid in caverns and took hideous forms.
And Tom Bombadil is obviously a maia, it's very simple. There were many of them and elves and men only knew a few.
Wasn't there an idea or a theory that they kinda just happened as a side effect? So far away from gaze of the gods, but there are still residual forces at play so these things just happened.
There is the idea that they are the side effects of Morgoth's own tampering with the Music, but that would still imply that they were ultimately created by Iluvatar, unless Morgoth created them after he came to Arda.
@@DarthGandalfYTcould one interpret it as a side effect of tampering, period? Sort of like a butterfly effect. The world was being built, Morgoth did his thing, and as he did the "slag" just seeped in deeper and deeper. Plausible?
You should really look around at what other LOTR youtubers have said on the subject.
Why?
Saying things like "outside the universe" does not make sense.
How can anything be older than Melkor when he is one of the oldest of the Valar and the second or third thing created? Doesn't this mean whatever they are are as old as Iru that existed with him in the void before creation?
This is where it gets tricky because Time as a concept doesn't technically exist outside of Ea. So a way of technically explaining how the Nameless Things are older than Melkor/Sauron is that they were on Arda first. Although Melkor/Sauron were created before them, they were not privy to time until they entered Ea.
@@DarthGandalfYT or they were floating in the void when arda form around them.
@@planersage1117 I like to think that adventure time does a good job answering this. "Before there was time, before there was anything, there was nothing, and before there was nothing, there were monsters".
What game r those clips from, of the random weird monsters, and underground eerie settings?
My favorite bro, ME Mysteries series amazing content thanks :)
I dont know but there might be way more mysteries to uncover man, dont let this fall :) i could do a list for you if u want
About nameless things, im in the opinion that were created by the Ainur in the music, probably by Melkor when Arda was created, he secretly put them there x)
you must be the only speculator on youtube here who even entertains the idea that the nameless things have a completely seperate origin from everyone/thing else. The others don't even seem to entertain the idea and I met a few who were manically against the very idea.
The "Nameless Things" is in itself a name, thus meaning they are not nameless
What in the world is the crazy monster video game you use clips from called??
Couldn't they just be subterranean animals? Like Dune-style sandworms or somesuch? I don't remember anything about them being confirmed as sentient.
They certainly could be, but they would have to be very horrific animals for Gandalf to not want to talk about them.
What are you suggesting? I'd never turn off one of your videos!
I think the Void idea has merit. John Milton characterizes the original Chaos from which the universe was created as having sentient beings, as they allow Satan to travel their realm to the newly created Eden. Although his Catholic theology was a bit different than Milton's, Tolkien may have had a similar idea, only with the Void standing in for Chaos.
Comment
Namless Thing One and Namless Thing Two, Namless Thing Two and Nameless Thing One. They can find anything, anything, anything under the sun.
I'm afraid Gandalf found a way to the dr. Seuss universe.
But Sauron and Gandalf are older than time. How can these nameless things be older than both of them?
You’re taking it all too literally
I think youn are not giving bombadil a good look. Since Gandalf is not in awe of him and ends up going to have a long talk, it is generally accepted bombadil is a mia like Melian who came into middle earth when it was made and fell inl ove with it. goldberry-the river god's daughter is far more of a mystery