If Gondor's steward had accepted Arvedui's demand to become the king of Gondor after Earnil II's death then Arnor would've come back very strong according to the seer Malbeth.
I would hope Melian would take them to the Valar to recreate the trees or deliver them to feanor in the halls of mandos. All 3 is different than just having 1.
The sons of Feanor feared Luthien. It said in the book none dare assail Luthien while she wore the Silmaril. So she still had her half Maiar powers after she returned from the dead. They did attack her son Dior tho..
@@greendragn I think the legend and gravitas of Luthien kept them away. If they attacked her all of the children of Eru would have snuffed them out. Not just her parents. Which Melian would been a force to deal with. Don't know how those that killed her grandchildren and great grandchildren are doing in the halls of Mandos.
Had Arnor survived the role of the hobbits would have greatly expanded with the Earth-shattering event in ca 2670. This was when "leaf" was invented (Tobold basically is the Middle Earth version of John Rolfe) who came up with a strain of tobacco that was mild enough to have market appeal. Tobacco is addictive, and soon the elves of Lindon would take up the habit as well as the dwarves of the Blue Mtns, and possibly also the elves in Mirkwood and the Dwarves of Erebor. This would create enormous foreign exchange for the Shire which would allow the Shire to acquire Elvish seeds and plant-growing know-how that would give them vastly increased agricultural productivity making the Shire the breakbasket of Arnor. This actually happened in the actual timeline to a lesser extent as evidenced by the high standard of living the hobbits enjoyed*, and the fact that families like the Baggins were able to live a life of leisure apparently from investment income. *Many have noted that the Shire resembles the English countryside in which Tolkein lived as a Child, indicating three-fold higher productivity
@@DarthGandalfYT I've always taken the idea of idea that Tobacco is neither as destructive nor as addictive in Middle Earth as in our own. Certainly, we don't get a lot of talk of hobbits, men, or dwarves developing any kind of problems as a result of smoking the stuff for years. How does this work you may ask? Through the power of *fantasy.* [jazz hands].
@@morgant.dulaman8733Or because tobacco is simply rare enough to be too expensive for most people to be addicted. Look at how Saruman is obviously hooked.
One other possibility. With Arnor never falling, perhaps Isengard is never turned over to Saruman, who then ends up having to build his stronghold somewhere else entirely. By the time of the War of the Ring, the Fellowship can safely travel from Imladris to Minas Tirith (or wherever they might decide to go) in much more safety as they would not have to go through Moria either and certainly it would be a lot harder for the Nazgûl to pursue them.
If Saruman didn't have Isengard, maybe he didn't make a move towards evil so openly, joining Sauron and developing his own army. He might have waited until Mordor was defeated and Sauron were no more. Maybe a grim consecuence of Arnor surviving could be Saruman being still around in the fourth age to become the next dark lord
It’s also possible Saruman could’ve manipulated Anor to his own ends, slowly turning them down a darker path and leading them to pledging to Mordor in the later third age.
@@taylormacmillan544I like this answer, if he was searching for the ring for himself he would definitely have an advantage over Sauron, seeing as how the Shire is surrounded by Arnor, and the hobbits would be in much greater peril beginning their journey moving through lands under the corruption of evil
Of course they still have the problems of how the hell to get into Mordor. Maybe they use the eagles to take them round to the east where there are no mountains preventing access.
For the War of the Ring, I suspect that Sauron would at least attempt to revive the Realm of Angmar in some capacity. As we know, Sauron's whole strategy was to keep the forces of his enemies from uniting against him, so it stands to reason that preventing Gondor and Arnor from joining forces would be at the top of his list (In fact, this is probably what prompted Sauron to send the Witch- King to Angmar in the first place. Destroying Arnor would not only destroy one kingdom of his most hated enemies, but also deprive the other of a valuable ally). An old enemy resurfacing on their very borders would likely set off quite a few alarm bells in Arnor, who would send its forces to put an end to the threat as soon as possible, which would delay the arrival of any Arnorian reinforcements to Gondor for quite some time. Time enough, perhaps, for Sauron to overrun Eastern Gondor.
Great work as usual; I lol'd at the Tolkien Gateway notes. I always wondered why Tolkien went to such lengths to establish the convoluted inheritance laws of the Kings and Queens of Numenor. Now it kinda makes sense. Arvedui and Pelendur both have a plausible argument, but it seems like the less disastrous choice would have been "default to how the Old Numenoreans did things," which is something Tolkien's pretty adamant about.
"default to how the Old Numenoreans did things," Which is ironic, as the oldest Numenoreans followed the Gondorian logic, by which Silmarilliën could not inherit. Both sides could have gone back and forth endlessly, but ultimately Gondor would be the one to choose. Also, I can't not see the opportunism in Arvedui's claim.
Oh I definitely smell opportunism, I think both sides care less about the law itself and more about how they can justify their preference. Hey, maybe Meneldur's sisters just both pulled a Vardamir and said "nope, don't need that drama" 😆
Please make an episode "What if Angmar would reborn?" Angmar is my favourite realm and it's the one of the greatest potential in Third Age, even Tolkien many times stated that reborn Angmar which would be a lot weaker than the original will still be a great threat to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth.
This might come off a bit optimistic, but if Arnor survives and has many centuries of peace to recover, and Gondor is also strengthened by its survival, it may well be that the alliance between them, Rohan and the remaining Elves and possibly Dwarves, brokered by the Wise, invade Mordor before Sauron can even try to get ahead of them in military buildup. Sauron himself would be put to flight or lose his body (again 🙄). In this scenario, if the Ring comes to Frodo by roughly the same means, he, Sam and Gandalf may well travel straight from Bag End to Orodruin openly, with a strong company Dunedain (and Hobbit?) guards, all on paved roads maintained and guarded by the power of the Kings. With little to no wear, tear, weariness and sorrow to weigh him down, and Gandalf with him and Sam instead of Gollum, he might even manage to throw the Ring into the Fire willingly! Not a very exciting story, though
What if Darth Gandalf had the 300 000 UA-cam following he deserves, is a scenario I'd like to be explored indepth.....also cheeky on the "never read the books" part, nearly got me there mate, nearly got me
I think the war of the ring would have happened in a similar fashion regardless, but just later. Sauron was definitely a very patient being, only revealing his hand once he is confident he can win with his armies. He had already hidden himself for a couple thousand years while waiting for his enemies to inevitably decay through his influence in the east and the nazgul, what's a thousand more years gonna add anyways
While Sauron can certainly wait a long time, a lot of it would come down to when the One Ring revealed itself again, and in whose hands it ended up in.
The longer he waited though, the more powerful Arnor would become until it’s essentially the old Realm of Elendil again. Then he’d have to deal with his greatest enemies kingdom coming back with a fiery vengeance alongside Gondor. Sauron would not even come close to standing a chance against a united Arnor Gondor front, it’d just be last alliance again but he doesn’t have the ring and there’s a lack of Noldor.
Here is a what if scenario, what if Morgoth truly repented, or what if Gollum ate Bilbo and kept the one ring, and how about what if Sauron defeated Gondor in the War of the Last Alliance but was still defeated.
If Melkor didn't turn evil, the perfect world of harmony and ease would have been created and everyone that came into existance would live happily ever after
The rise of Angmar and the Fall of Arnor is another idea for a LOTR prequel spin off movie or TV show once Amazon's Numenor series and The War of the Rohhirrim movie as an anime are said and done and are a success for Tolkien/Middle Earth fans.
I was thinking about this for about a week. An Arnor that is still alive and providing aid to the southern realm would mean that Gondor and Rohan would not be in dire straits and Mordor would have to wait longer to make it's strike on the free people. Sauron has all the time in middle earth. But with Arnor recovering and not engaged that time is cutting both ways. It might be possible that the paths of the misty moutains will be cleared. With Arnor still around there might be enough strength for a direct conflict with Sauron that might not need such a gamble with hobbits. Or at least the hobbits could take the ring to mordor without as much peril. Aragorn might not have the skills he had as a ranger though. Like Darth Gandalf said this is speculation. In any case an Arnor that did not fall would put the Dunedain in a much better place.
I really liked his video as you were so right that it was a clear fork in the road which could have ended with a reunited kingdom a thousand years earlier. I wonder though whether the weaknesses in Dunedain society would have meant their decline was just delayed by a few centuries? They still didn’t have many kids, relationship with elves was declining, they still had plenty of other enemies that Sauron could push to attack them. Also there was a very real fear of a kin strife 2.0 when when Earnur disappeared suggesting tensions and rivalries. Who’s to say how long Gondors nobles would have put up with helping rebuild Arnor? Sauron would have readily exploited these as he did between the Faithful and Kings men in Numenor. Maybe the Dunedain strength being split between north and south might have seen Gondor fall and Arnor, sheltered behind the Misty mountains, being the bastion of the free peoples?
Great video! I wish we could see more of Arnor in LOTR-media. There's something about Eriador in general, and this kingdom in particular that gets my imagination going : thinking these were the lands where the Edain stepped on their way to Beleriand... Do you think Arnor could have had similar relations with the Eothéod that Gondor had in the normal timeline? I'd like to think they'd give a fief in the eastern parts of Arnor to the Horse-Masters, in exchange for their help against the forces of Angmar
Arnor would ride to aid of the Gondor during the war of the ring and I reckon that Aragorn would try to take the ring from him and Arwen would never marry him and the ring would be destroyed or recaptured by sauron as no diversion and the eye would keep look on his lands till Gondor and arnor get fully prepared to attack Mordor
The Dunedain are my favorite thing within the legendarium. Their history, their culture, and the fantasy that surrounds them. Their ultimate tragic history is both beautiful and melancholy. As much as I would love this to be how the story played out, it undermines the point of The Lord of The Rings. Gondor, which was the most powerful Kingdom of Men, was far from its height, and the Dunedain as a whole, were arguably at their lowest point. If they were a much more powerful Kingdom, with Arnor not only intact but prospering, they would have been able to hold their own much better against the forces of evil. Not to mention that this could possibly dissuade Sauroman from turning against the Free People's, being sandwiched between Rohan and Arnor, out of a need for survival alone he would have needed to be more cautious. But in the Canon time-line, it wasn't a powerful kingdom of men that defeated Souron. Numenor could have ended him in the second age but didn't. It was a Hobbit, a small humble creature that desired no power, or even go be a part of the larger world. From a narrative standpoint, Arnor had to fall as much as that pains me.
Well, in a way, it did. Since those of the Dunedain survived the fall, and the kingdom was reborn as a part of the reunited kingdoms ruled by the line of Aragorn of the 4th age. But, I do wonder, how powerful were the armies of Morgoth? factoring in all the creatures he's swayed to his side or made from the age of the lamps to the War of Wrath.
Enjoyed this video and was inspired to make an extremely long effortpost that I doubt will ever be read. The survival of Arnor would undoubtedly be a good thing, but I suspect that Sauron would have kept on trying to attack it. Eriador in the timeline of the books is a bit of a backwater because other than Rivendell and Lindon (basically impregnable to anything but a full-scale invasion, not a direct military threat by the War of the Ring), and the Shire/Breeland (unknown and ***apparently unimportant), there isn't really much there for Sauron to focus his attentions on. Whilst the orcs of the Misty Mountains, trolls, wargs, wights and other creatures were still causing trouble and required the constant efforts of the Dunedain of the North to combat, it did not seem to be with much active coordination from Sauron. But with a surviving Arnor, Sauron would likely continue trying to wear it down, as he successfully did in the canon timeline. Additionally, this is my own pet theory, but I think Sauron especially disliked the line of Isildur (for obvious reasons) and this might have some bearing on why his most powerful lieutenant was tasked with Arnor's destruction whilst Gondor was mostly attacked and weakened by proxies in the form of various groups of men. An Arnor which had survived the war with Angmar would still be on its knees, demographically and militarily speaking, and it would make good military sense to try and prevent its recovery. The resources to keep attacking Arnor definitely exist, if Sauron's efforts are focussed towards the task. The Misty Mountains are a breeding ground for numerous orcs, are incredibly challenging to attack, and impossible to hold. There are dragons in the wastes of the far north, and many wild men to the south, including both the Dunlendings and the descendants of the Men of Eryn Vorn who once worked for Sauron and burnt Lond Daer several times. Now, getting these various groups to do his bidding would likely mean Sauron might not be as active as he was elsewhere. Perhaps Gondor, the Elves of what was then still Greenwood, the Dwarves still holding out in the Grey Mountains, or other peoples further East get a slightly easier time of it as Sauron has less attention to spare? So does this mean Arnor simply falls a bit later? Perhaps, but that's a bit depressing and not in the spirit of the video. What we instead could imagine is that whilst Sauron would be unable to destroy Arnor - especially in a scenario where Gondor will keep bailing it out of trouble - the kingdom is unlikely to recover to its former glory, either. Plagues, pestilences, continual orc raids from the mountains and mannish raids from the south - there are a number of ways to thwart or at least limit the recovery of Arnor. Now, this would still likely be a net benefit for the Free Peoples, because every bit of effort Sauron is using to try and kill the hated heirs of Isildur is effort he can't spend elsewhere, but it should constrain our expectations. One might imagine a kingdom of Arnor by the time of the War of the Ring which was more or less centralised around Arthedain, central Cardolan, and of Rhudar probably only the Angle if anything. The rest of Rhudar would be too vulnerable to attack from the Misty Mountains, and southern Cardolan would likely become a debateable land similar to the Scottish Borders, with constant raids and conflict with the Dunlendings and wild men of Eryn Vorn. Such a kingdom might command more military might than say, Dale, but perhaps not as much as Rohan. If Sauron places more emphasis on building up the orcs of the Misty Mountains to oppose this kingdom, or perhaps even re-establishing Angmar in secret very late in the Third Age around the same time he reveals himself in Mordor, such a kingdom could be hard-pressed, just as realms like Rohan, Dale, Erebor and Mirkwood were. So rather than imagining the Prince of Arnor simply marching south with ten thousand spears at his back, recalling Gil-Galad and Elendil marching south as part of the Last Alliance, I suspect the military aid that a surviving Arnor could offer might be more limited. Or at the very least it might only be able to send more than token aid after first fighting off its own aggressors, just as Rohan had to first overcome Saruman before it could ride to Gondor's aid. Distance is also a factor here. Whilst any War of the Ring would be very different in this scenario, it is simply not easy to move an army from the North to Gondor. The overland route that the Last Alliance used already stretches logistical credulity, and this was with a much stronger Elven kingdom in Greenwood and Dwarven Kingdom in Moria, who could help hold the upper Anduin as both a barrier and a line of communication and supply. Realistically, given that the Misty Mountains are held by orcs, and with Dunland interdicting the Gap of Rohan, I think the only way that aid could arrive from Arnor to Gondor in time and numbers enough to make a difference to the outcome of the war would be by sea. This has the added benefit of feeling like a kind of coming-full-circle, with Gondor's decision to save its sibling kingdom with an armada centuries ago being repaid in its own darkest hour. But then we have to remember the corsairs, who would be the perfect instrument for interdicting such a relief force, a contingency which Sauron would definitely have planned for. This prevents another obstacle the northern Dunedain would have to overcome. So TL;DR, this timeline's equivalent of The Lord of the Rings probably has an epic sea battle somewhere.
I think the survival of Arnor would have pushed the War of the Ring back some, but with the fall of Minas Ithil, Sauron would have used the Palantir of that city to corrupt the nobility of Arnor, leading it either into civil war, or war against Gondor. Just my take, but it seems more like Sauron’s m.o. and the fear of a United northern and southern kingdom is what led him to test Arnor with the wars against Angmar in the first place. He would have tried again using other means.
What if Bard missed? But then I got thinking did the dwarves ever actually defeat a dragon in any of the texts? Because it is like what was Gandalf thinking sending a dozen dwarfs and a hobbit off to get rid of Smaug. Talk about optimistic thinking. What was Gandalf smoking when he came up with that idea? Was he senile after all this time and forgot that Smaug was bigger then a pony.
I’ve always thought it’s implied the dwarves must have defeated a few dragons in their time. The War of dwarves and Dragons lasted for 19 years. If it had all been one sided like Smaug’s sack of Erebor it wouldn’t have lasted that long. Some lesser dragons surely got dispatched by dwarven axes, or at least driven off (like Glaurung v Azaghal).
Very interesting! Thanks for making this! I think personally that is Angmar fell Sauron would have still focused on Arnor in some new way. Maybe through the Dunlanding peoples or Orcs. Perhaps going to the dragons and enduring them to come west of the mountains or even partnering with the Balrog. 🤷♂️ So many options.
Honestly it would be interesting if gondor was in ruins, an extension of murder, while dwarves men and elves lived in the last safe Kingdom. Hobbits may have even stayed on the other side of the misty moutnains
I think this would lead to Sauron winning yes Gondor + Arnor would be quite formidable but Sauron is patient, cunning and could even spark a Numenorian civil war. Think about this, the one ring still exists, it would still be held by Gollum. Without the need to pass via the misty mountains to get to Erebor or perhaps having a solid company of Dunedain to reclaim Erebor with. they might not even ask for the help of Bilbo. Gandalf will never have the time to identify it which took near a damn century. while the Angmar, Goblins, and the ringwraiths will be on the move and actively hunting it with special powers.
i think the more fascinating one is, what if Elendur son of Isildur survived or had lived? what changes might be done to both of the kingdoms and the dunedain? wish this would have had happened. the High Kingship would still remain for the House of Isildur
i wander if carlenarthon would still be depopulated since this time line it has become a major travel route to arnor, so i guess they had to find another land for the eothed i guess
What if Anarion never died and how would that affect Gondor's history and the whole High Kingship? Maybe not very much, but it's still an interesting question.
If Arnor survived like in your theory. Mordor wouldn't have unassailable at best and held in check at least. Sauron would still be a cunning a-hole and find a way to divide and conquer. Possibly through Rohan.
What if the Ent wives were found hibernating in the Old Forest During the War of the Rings Or What if the Brown lands were not scorch earthed by Sauron Or what if the Ent Wives were discovered in the Forest next to the Sea of Rhun
I like this Arnor could have and should have survived Tolkien didn't want them to survive so it didn't, even if had mutable chances the thrive the plot didn't allow it. we all have at least one good point as to why it could have been rebuilt so I will not add any myself just insert the one you like the most and pretend that's the one I said.
with Arnor never falling, the united kingdom could have subdued Sauron conventionally. Once the Ring is found, Aragon might be swayed to take it from Frodo or Bilbo and reward them with the shire as fiefdom for it. It would then be locked away in Amon Sûl, Anuminas or even Minas Tirith, as far away from Saurons prison as possible. Since the Istari would have no need to come to middle earth, Sauron might have reclaimed the ring in time and doom the Kingdom of Aragon to the same fate as Numenor before it, because if we know one thing about men, is they do not learn from the mistakes of the past. Maybe a great flood would destroy the lands along the Anduin, including Minas Tirith and the Ring might be claimed by Ulmo to remain in the ocean and thus damming the people of middle earth to suffer Sauron for all time or until a worthy champion would show himself and be presented with the opportunity to rid the world of this evil.
The story is as it is, but were I to be forced to reconcile a surviving Arnor, it would still suffer ills and not just become some paradise. The plague would still hit and it would hit all the harder for there being so much more people. The dunedain were still dwindling, intermarrying or simply dying off, the seldom talked about sort of light style apartheid where numenorean descent grants prominence would loose its grip on society. The lack of a threat such as Angmar nearby would corrupt the armed forces, making them stagnant, underfunded, and the coercion of taxes would meet growing opposition. I wouldn't be surprised if what we end up with by the time of Frodo, is just simply several more example of places like Bree, while an Aragorn viceroy sits almost powerless at Fornost or Amon Sûl, clutching his palantir. Perhaps being shown images of past grandeurs, of the might of numenor under Ar Pharazon, by a mysteriois shadow inside the deep orb. Now at least that grants a story. 😅
The troll at the black gate was originally supposed to be Sauron himself. But, Peter Jackson decided against that, and stuck a big troll there instead.
The development of the lands of Arnor could have been VERY bad in the War of the Ring. sauron was unable to find the One Ring because the Shire was a complete backwater isolated from any area Sauron considered relevant. Being in the heart of a vibrant and powerful Arnor, Sauron would know exactly where to find it, with dire consequences for the hobbits.
Well he can't exactly send his armies or the nazgul in a powerful and prosperous version of arnor as easily as he would have been able to do so in the original timeline ,the shire would more than likely possess an extremely important position in arnor as it would more than likely be one of the most important breadbasket of arnor or perhaps the primary breadbasket of arnor .It would be protected and defended by strong armies of the northern kingdom and it is right in the heart of arnor .
You keep saying "Arnor" when discussing Arvedui, but Arvedui (though in direct descent from Elendil) was only king of Arthedain. Arnor proper, if I recall correctly, hadn't existed for about 1100 years by that point (1945 TA), and Cardolan and Rhudaur were also long gone.
Arvedui was de facto King of Arthedain, but Argeleb I claimed to be de jure King of Arnor after the lines of Isildur died out in Cardolan and Rhudaur. So in reality, Arvedui was only King of Arthedain, but his claimed title would've been King of Arnor.
I hope we will see Arnor in Amazon Prime's prequel series towards the series' finale in the later seasons after Numenor has been sunk into the sea when Ar Pharazon unwisely decides to invade Aman while the faithful Numenoreans going into exile to establish the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor and form the last alliance with Gil Galad and Lord Elrond to deal with Sauron towards the end of the Second Age.
It was stupid to make them so far geographically from the other all that land in the middle its insane and when speaking of reunification you would want that land closer 🤦🏾♂️😂
If Arnor survived it's likely Sauron would have heard of The Shire much sooner as there would likely have been trade between it and other lands, and Sauron captured Gollum in 3009 and Gandalf only leant the truth in 3017! Yes, Gandalf asked for the guard at the boarders of The Shire to be doubled in 3001, but Sauron could have sent the Corsairs of Umbar with Easterlings and Haradrim to attack Arnor! This would happen before Gandalf knew why for sure, and he would not be able to get Frodo away, and if he did, he would have taken him to Saruman, who was corrupted in 3000! Therefore Middle-Earth would have fallen to either Sauron or Saruman! The fall of Arnor came to be a great aid to the Free People of Middle-Earth! So yes, it would have been nice if Arnor survived, but the rejection of Gondor and fall of Arthedain allowed the Heirs of Isildur a place to hide from Sauron and survive, and it brought the Free People of Middle-Earth the time they needed to bring about the utter fall of Sauron and Saruman. In the end, the fall of Arthedain proved to be a good thing!
Don't know why, but Arnor's history fascinates me the most. You give Arnor the attention it deserves. Thank you.
If Gondor's steward had accepted Arvedui's demand to become the king of Gondor after Earnil II's death then Arnor would've come back very strong according to the seer Malbeth.
Arnor becoming so strong it becomes Arm more.
I see myself out thank you.
Here's a "What If" scenario, What if Beren & Luthien had regained all 3 silmarils?
Interesting. I'll definitely have a think about this one.
@Rizal Disraeli Ramos That is only if they could break through Doriath's defenses. Also would Morgoth take that kind of risk?
I would hope Melian would take them to the Valar to recreate the trees or deliver them to feanor in the halls of mandos. All 3 is different than just having 1.
The sons of Feanor feared Luthien. It said in the book none dare assail Luthien while she wore the Silmaril. So she still had her half Maiar powers after she returned from the dead. They did attack her son Dior tho..
@@greendragn I think the legend and gravitas of Luthien kept them away. If they attacked her all of the children of Eru would have snuffed them out. Not just her parents. Which Melian would been a force to deal with. Don't know how those that killed her grandchildren and great grandchildren are doing in the halls of Mandos.
Had Arnor survived the role of the hobbits would have greatly expanded with the Earth-shattering event in ca 2670. This was when "leaf" was invented (Tobold basically is the Middle Earth version of John Rolfe) who came up with a strain of tobacco that was mild enough to have market appeal. Tobacco is addictive, and soon the elves of Lindon would take up the habit as well as the dwarves of the Blue Mtns, and possibly also the elves in Mirkwood and the Dwarves of Erebor. This would create enormous foreign exchange for the Shire which would allow the Shire to acquire Elvish seeds and plant-growing know-how that would give them vastly increased agricultural productivity making the Shire the breakbasket of Arnor. This actually happened in the actual timeline to a lesser extent as evidenced by the high standard of living the hobbits enjoyed*, and the fact that families like the Baggins were able to live a life of leisure apparently from investment income.
*Many have noted that the Shire resembles the English countryside in which Tolkein lived as a Child, indicating three-fold higher productivity
So Arnor being destroyed essentially saved all of the northern lands from developing an addiction to tobacco? Hmm, maybe the Witch-king wasn't so bad.
@@DarthGandalfYT I've always taken the idea of idea that Tobacco is neither as destructive nor as addictive in Middle Earth as in our own. Certainly, we don't get a lot of talk of hobbits, men, or dwarves developing any kind of problems as a result of smoking the stuff for years.
How does this work you may ask?
Through the power of *fantasy.* [jazz hands].
@@morgant.dulaman8733Or because tobacco is simply rare enough to be too expensive for most people to be addicted. Look at how Saruman is obviously hooked.
@@morgant.dulaman8733 maybe pipeweed is just less toxic than IRL tobacco
It’s not the Tobacco that’s harmful, it’s the chemicals that are added in the cigarette making process that is harmful.
One other possibility. With Arnor never falling, perhaps Isengard is never turned over to Saruman, who then ends up having to build his stronghold somewhere else entirely. By the time of the War of the Ring, the Fellowship can safely travel from Imladris to Minas Tirith (or wherever they might decide to go) in much more safety as they would not have to go through Moria either and certainly it would be a lot harder for the Nazgûl to pursue them.
If Saruman didn't have Isengard, maybe he didn't make a move towards evil so openly, joining Sauron and developing his own army. He might have waited until Mordor was defeated and Sauron were no more. Maybe a grim consecuence of Arnor surviving could be Saruman being still around in the fourth age to become the next dark lord
It’s also possible Saruman could’ve manipulated Anor to his own ends, slowly turning them down a darker path and leading them to pledging to Mordor in the later third age.
@@taylormacmillan544I like this answer, if he was searching for the ring for himself he would definitely have an advantage over Sauron, seeing as how the Shire is surrounded by Arnor, and the hobbits would be in much greater peril beginning their journey moving through lands under the corruption of evil
Of course they still have the problems of how the hell to get into Mordor.
Maybe they use the eagles to take them round to the east where there are no mountains preventing access.
For the War of the Ring, I suspect that Sauron would at least attempt to revive the Realm of Angmar in some capacity. As we know, Sauron's whole strategy was to keep the forces of his enemies from uniting against him, so it stands to reason that preventing Gondor and Arnor from joining forces would be at the top of his list (In fact, this is probably what prompted Sauron to send the Witch- King to Angmar in the first place. Destroying Arnor would not only destroy one kingdom of his most hated enemies, but also deprive the other of a valuable ally). An old enemy resurfacing on their very borders would likely set off quite a few alarm bells in Arnor, who would send its forces to put an end to the threat as soon as possible, which would delay the arrival of any Arnorian reinforcements to Gondor for quite some time. Time enough, perhaps, for Sauron to overrun Eastern Gondor.
True I could see Sauron sending a dol guldur like force to the misty mountains or angmar to distract arnor from helping Gondor
Great work as usual; I lol'd at the Tolkien Gateway notes.
I always wondered why Tolkien went to such lengths to establish the convoluted inheritance laws of the Kings and Queens of Numenor. Now it kinda makes sense. Arvedui and Pelendur both have a plausible argument, but it seems like the less disastrous choice would have been "default to how the Old Numenoreans did things," which is something Tolkien's pretty adamant about.
"default to how the Old Numenoreans did things,"
Which is ironic, as the oldest Numenoreans followed the Gondorian logic, by which Silmarilliën could not inherit. Both sides could have gone back and forth endlessly, but ultimately Gondor would be the one to choose. Also, I can't not see the opportunism in Arvedui's claim.
Oh I definitely smell opportunism, I think both sides care less about the law itself and more about how they can justify their preference.
Hey, maybe Meneldur's sisters just both pulled a Vardamir and said "nope, don't need that drama" 😆
YES! Been waiting on what if Arnor survived for ages.
Can you do a Arnor Army/population size speculation video?
Please make an episode "What if Angmar would reborn?" Angmar is my favourite realm and it's the one of the greatest potential in Third Age, even Tolkien many times stated that reborn Angmar which would be a lot weaker than the original will still be a great threat to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth.
What if tolkien was a grammarnazi?
When you live in shadow, all your wishes lead to shadow....
WE BUILD FOR IRON CROWN!!!
well Angmar is just Mordor but with snow, soooo...
Cool idea though
This might come off a bit optimistic, but if Arnor survives and has many centuries of peace to recover, and Gondor is also strengthened by its survival, it may well be that the alliance between them, Rohan and the remaining Elves and possibly Dwarves, brokered by the Wise, invade Mordor before Sauron can even try to get ahead of them in military buildup. Sauron himself would be put to flight or lose his body (again 🙄).
In this scenario, if the Ring comes to Frodo by roughly the same means, he, Sam and Gandalf may well travel straight from Bag End to Orodruin openly, with a strong company Dunedain (and Hobbit?) guards, all on paved roads maintained and guarded by the power of the Kings.
With little to no wear, tear, weariness and sorrow to weigh him down, and Gandalf with him and Sam instead of Gollum, he might even manage to throw the Ring into the Fire willingly!
Not a very exciting story, though
Honestly that sounds the most realistic, but yes less exciting
What if Darth Gandalf had the 300 000 UA-cam following he deserves, is a scenario I'd like to be explored indepth.....also cheeky on the "never read the books" part, nearly got me there mate, nearly got me
Here is a "what if" question I'd love to hear about! What if the balrog didn't bring Gandalf down with it when it fell?
I think the war of the ring would have happened in a similar fashion regardless, but just later. Sauron was definitely a very patient being, only revealing his hand once he is confident he can win with his armies. He had already hidden himself for a couple thousand years while waiting for his enemies to inevitably decay through his influence in the east and the nazgul, what's a thousand more years gonna add anyways
While Sauron can certainly wait a long time, a lot of it would come down to when the One Ring revealed itself again, and in whose hands it ended up in.
The longer he waited though, the more powerful Arnor would become until it’s essentially the old Realm of Elendil again. Then he’d have to deal with his greatest enemies kingdom coming back with a fiery vengeance alongside Gondor. Sauron would not even come close to standing a chance against a united Arnor Gondor front, it’d just be last alliance again but he doesn’t have the ring and there’s a lack of Noldor.
Arnor deserves to have its own Middle Earth spin off movie or tv series.
Here is a what if scenario, what if Morgoth truly repented, or what if Gollum ate Bilbo and kept the one ring, and how about what if Sauron defeated Gondor in the War of the Last Alliance but was still defeated.
If Melkor didn't turn evil, the perfect world of harmony and ease would have been created and everyone that came into existance would live happily ever after
The fan fiction we never wanted but we all needed keep
Up the great videos Gandalf
The rise of Angmar and the Fall of Arnor is another idea for a LOTR prequel spin off movie or TV show once Amazon's Numenor series and The War of the Rohhirrim movie as an anime are said and done and are a success for Tolkien/Middle Earth fans.
Perhaps a what if the Noldor won Nirnaeth Arnoediad? Would it change the outcome of the war with Morgoth?
This is an interesting one. Thanks for the suggestion.
Ah yes. Enveloped in Tolkien's magical grasp once again.
" Can Arnor into space?" LOL!
I was thinking about this for about a week. An Arnor that is still alive and providing aid to the southern realm would mean that Gondor and Rohan would not be in dire straits and Mordor would have to wait longer to make it's strike on the free people. Sauron has all the time in middle earth. But with Arnor recovering and not engaged that time is cutting both ways. It might be possible that the paths of the misty moutains will be cleared. With Arnor still around there might be enough strength for a direct conflict with Sauron that might not need such a gamble with hobbits. Or at least the hobbits could take the ring to mordor without as much peril. Aragorn might not have the skills he had as a ranger though. Like Darth Gandalf said this is speculation. In any case an Arnor that did not fall would put the Dunedain in a much better place.
Your point about "time cutting both ways" is a good one.
Witch King a badass mf, conquered 3 kingdoms, even Sauron couldnt complain after he was finally beaten in 1975 TA
Someone had to do the job after all.
I really liked his video as you were so right that it was a clear fork in the road which could have ended with a reunited kingdom a thousand years earlier. I wonder though whether the weaknesses in Dunedain society would have meant their decline was just delayed by a few centuries? They still didn’t have many kids, relationship with elves was declining, they still had plenty of other enemies that Sauron could push to attack them.
Also there was a very real fear of a kin strife 2.0 when when Earnur disappeared suggesting tensions and rivalries. Who’s to say how long Gondors nobles would have put up with helping rebuild Arnor? Sauron would have readily exploited these as he did between the Faithful and Kings men in Numenor.
Maybe the Dunedain strength being split between north and south might have seen Gondor fall and Arnor, sheltered behind the Misty mountains, being the bastion of the free peoples?
Great video
What if Numenor never sank?
What if Glorfindel had joined with the fellowship of the ring?
"What if Glorfindel had joined with the fellowship of the ring?"
Balrog tackling 2 electric boogaloo.
Feels like as long as Sauron was around the successor kingdoms were up against something insurmountable
Great video! I wish we could see more of Arnor in LOTR-media. There's something about Eriador in general, and this kingdom in particular that gets my imagination going : thinking these were the lands where the Edain stepped on their way to Beleriand...
Do you think Arnor could have had similar relations with the Eothéod that Gondor had in the normal timeline? I'd like to think they'd give a fief in the eastern parts of Arnor to the Horse-Masters, in exchange for their help against the forces of Angmar
Rhudaur could definitely use some more loyal inhabitants. :) We might even get a Dunlendings 2.0 with the remaining men of Rhudaur and Angmar
Arnor would ride to aid of the Gondor during the war of the ring and I reckon that Aragorn would try to take the ring from him and Arwen would never marry him and the ring would be destroyed or recaptured by sauron as no diversion and the eye would keep look on his lands till Gondor and arnor get fully prepared to attack Mordor
The war of the ring would be way easier like way arnor surviving really changes everything
That is an excellent video with great points! Thank you for making it!
The Dunedain are my favorite thing within the legendarium. Their history, their culture, and the fantasy that surrounds them. Their ultimate tragic history is both beautiful and melancholy. As much as I would love this to be how the story played out, it undermines the point of The Lord of The Rings.
Gondor, which was the most powerful Kingdom of Men, was far from its height, and the Dunedain as a whole, were arguably at their lowest point. If they were a much more powerful Kingdom, with Arnor not only intact but prospering, they would have been able to hold their own much better against the forces of evil. Not to mention that this could possibly dissuade Sauroman from turning against the Free People's, being sandwiched between Rohan and Arnor, out of a need for survival alone he would have needed to be more cautious.
But in the Canon time-line, it wasn't a powerful kingdom of men that defeated Souron. Numenor could have ended him in the second age but didn't. It was a Hobbit, a small humble creature that desired no power, or even go be a part of the larger world. From a narrative standpoint, Arnor had to fall as much as that pains me.
ther is one more "how Arnor survive". What if help from Gondor came faster and Fornost never fell
Well, in a way, it did. Since those of the Dunedain survived the fall, and the kingdom was reborn as a part of the reunited kingdoms ruled by the line of Aragorn of the 4th age. But, I do wonder, how powerful were the armies of Morgoth? factoring in all the creatures he's swayed to his side or made from the age of the lamps to the War of Wrath.
Enjoyed this video and was inspired to make an extremely long effortpost that I doubt will ever be read.
The survival of Arnor would undoubtedly be a good thing, but I suspect that Sauron would have kept on trying to attack it. Eriador in the timeline of the books is a bit of a backwater because other than Rivendell and Lindon (basically impregnable to anything but a full-scale invasion, not a direct military threat by the War of the Ring), and the Shire/Breeland (unknown and ***apparently unimportant), there isn't really much there for Sauron to focus his attentions on. Whilst the orcs of the Misty Mountains, trolls, wargs, wights and other creatures were still causing trouble and required the constant efforts of the Dunedain of the North to combat, it did not seem to be with much active coordination from Sauron.
But with a surviving Arnor, Sauron would likely continue trying to wear it down, as he successfully did in the canon timeline. Additionally, this is my own pet theory, but I think Sauron especially disliked the line of Isildur (for obvious reasons) and this might have some bearing on why his most powerful lieutenant was tasked with Arnor's destruction whilst Gondor was mostly attacked and weakened by proxies in the form of various groups of men. An Arnor which had survived the war with Angmar would still be on its knees, demographically and militarily speaking, and it would make good military sense to try and prevent its recovery.
The resources to keep attacking Arnor definitely exist, if Sauron's efforts are focussed towards the task. The Misty Mountains are a breeding ground for numerous orcs, are incredibly challenging to attack, and impossible to hold. There are dragons in the wastes of the far north, and many wild men to the south, including both the Dunlendings and the descendants of the Men of Eryn Vorn who once worked for Sauron and burnt Lond Daer several times. Now, getting these various groups to do his bidding would likely mean Sauron might not be as active as he was elsewhere. Perhaps Gondor, the Elves of what was then still Greenwood, the Dwarves still holding out in the Grey Mountains, or other peoples further East get a slightly easier time of it as Sauron has less attention to spare?
So does this mean Arnor simply falls a bit later? Perhaps, but that's a bit depressing and not in the spirit of the video. What we instead could imagine is that whilst Sauron would be unable to destroy Arnor - especially in a scenario where Gondor will keep bailing it out of trouble - the kingdom is unlikely to recover to its former glory, either. Plagues, pestilences, continual orc raids from the mountains and mannish raids from the south - there are a number of ways to thwart or at least limit the recovery of Arnor. Now, this would still likely be a net benefit for the Free Peoples, because every bit of effort Sauron is using to try and kill the hated heirs of Isildur is effort he can't spend elsewhere, but it should constrain our expectations.
One might imagine a kingdom of Arnor by the time of the War of the Ring which was more or less centralised around Arthedain, central Cardolan, and of Rhudar probably only the Angle if anything. The rest of Rhudar would be too vulnerable to attack from the Misty Mountains, and southern Cardolan would likely become a debateable land similar to the Scottish Borders, with constant raids and conflict with the Dunlendings and wild men of Eryn Vorn. Such a kingdom might command more military might than say, Dale, but perhaps not as much as Rohan. If Sauron places more emphasis on building up the orcs of the Misty Mountains to oppose this kingdom, or perhaps even re-establishing Angmar in secret very late in the Third Age around the same time he reveals himself in Mordor, such a kingdom could be hard-pressed, just as realms like Rohan, Dale, Erebor and Mirkwood were.
So rather than imagining the Prince of Arnor simply marching south with ten thousand spears at his back, recalling Gil-Galad and Elendil marching south as part of the Last Alliance, I suspect the military aid that a surviving Arnor could offer might be more limited. Or at the very least it might only be able to send more than token aid after first fighting off its own aggressors, just as Rohan had to first overcome Saruman before it could ride to Gondor's aid. Distance is also a factor here. Whilst any War of the Ring would be very different in this scenario, it is simply not easy to move an army from the North to Gondor. The overland route that the Last Alliance used already stretches logistical credulity, and this was with a much stronger Elven kingdom in Greenwood and Dwarven Kingdom in Moria, who could help hold the upper Anduin as both a barrier and a line of communication and supply.
Realistically, given that the Misty Mountains are held by orcs, and with Dunland interdicting the Gap of Rohan, I think the only way that aid could arrive from Arnor to Gondor in time and numbers enough to make a difference to the outcome of the war would be by sea. This has the added benefit of feeling like a kind of coming-full-circle, with Gondor's decision to save its sibling kingdom with an armada centuries ago being repaid in its own darkest hour. But then we have to remember the corsairs, who would be the perfect instrument for interdicting such a relief force, a contingency which Sauron would definitely have planned for. This prevents another obstacle the northern Dunedain would have to overcome.
So TL;DR, this timeline's equivalent of The Lord of the Rings probably has an epic sea battle somewhere.
Ow, and if Melkor never became evil there would never have been a Numenor, and so there would never have been an Arnor!
I think the survival of Arnor would have pushed the War of the Ring back some, but with the fall of Minas Ithil, Sauron would have used the Palantir of that city to corrupt the nobility of Arnor, leading it either into civil war, or war against Gondor. Just my take, but it seems more like Sauron’s m.o. and the fear of a United northern and southern kingdom is what led him to test Arnor with the wars against Angmar in the first place. He would have tried again using other means.
Did I just hear "can Arnor into space"? At 0:05
Yes, and the answer is no.
@@DarthGandalfYT yes and yes, the shire(technically arnor) repeatedly launches into space from a launchpad in lindon
What if Bard missed? But then I got thinking did the dwarves ever actually defeat a dragon in any of the texts? Because it is like what was Gandalf thinking sending a dozen dwarfs and a hobbit off to get rid of Smaug. Talk about optimistic thinking. What was Gandalf smoking when he came up with that idea? Was he senile after all this time and forgot that Smaug was bigger then a pony.
I’ve always thought it’s implied the dwarves must have defeated a few dragons in their time. The War of dwarves and Dragons lasted for 19 years. If it had all been one sided like Smaug’s sack of Erebor it wouldn’t have lasted that long. Some lesser dragons surely got dispatched by dwarven axes, or at least driven off (like Glaurung v Azaghal).
What if Gil Galad survived?
Heres a what if scenario, what if Melkor never turned evil 🤔
Fool of a Took!
If Melkor never turned evil:
None of the events in the story happen and everything is peaceful and uneventful forever; the end!
Very interesting! Thanks for making this! I think personally that is Angmar fell Sauron would have still focused on Arnor in some new way. Maybe through the Dunlanding peoples or Orcs. Perhaps going to the dragons and enduring them to come west of the mountains or even partnering with the Balrog. 🤷♂️ So many options.
I would love for you to do a series of The Dunedain rangers rebuilding Arnor and how would they do it.
Only way arnor survives is gondor and elves arriving Just in time to strike at angmar's rear while they are busy
Honestly it would be interesting if gondor was in ruins, an extension of murder, while dwarves men and elves lived in the last safe Kingdom. Hobbits may have even stayed on the other side of the misty moutnains
The ring would fall into hands of men because frodo would probably be forced to held council in fornost
Saruman would have required a totally different approach.
I think this would lead to Sauron winning yes Gondor + Arnor would be quite formidable but Sauron is patient, cunning and could even spark a Numenorian civil war.
Think about this, the one ring still exists, it would still be held by Gollum. Without the need to pass via the misty mountains to get to Erebor or perhaps having a solid company of Dunedain to reclaim Erebor with. they might not even ask for the help of Bilbo. Gandalf will never have the time to identify it which took near a damn century. while the Angmar, Goblins, and the ringwraiths will be on the move and actively hunting it with special powers.
great video as usual, do more what ifs!!
i think the more fascinating one is, what if Elendur son of Isildur survived or had lived? what changes might be done to both of the kingdoms and the dunedain? wish this would have had happened. the High Kingship would still remain for the House of Isildur
00:06 Not even the Numenorian skyships of one of Tolkien's drafts could into space, so probably not, unfortunately.
Love you and your content so fucking much! I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but could you do 'What If" Bilbo took the ring to Mordor?!?
Gondor arrived earlier and the Arthedine army was not destroyed.
Why did not Gandalf the Grey bother to help save Arnor from Angmar?
I love your videos!!! Hidden gem!
i wander if carlenarthon would still be depopulated since this time line it has become a major travel route to arnor, so i guess they had to find another land for the eothed i guess
BY THE BLOOD OF ARNOR!!!!
What if Melkor never turned evil?
But honestly tho, what if Melkor never turned evil?!
9:58 had me for a moment there
What if Anarion never died and how would that affect Gondor's history and the whole High Kingship? Maybe not very much, but it's still an interesting question.
I always wondered if Tharbard would become the great city of the High King a 3rd if you will province of the United kingdoms.
Thanks for this
If Arnor survived like in your theory. Mordor wouldn't have unassailable at best and held in check at least. Sauron would still be a cunning a-hole and find a way to divide and conquer. Possibly through Rohan.
I made this request some time ago thanks.
Nice video, but I made sure they don't.
What if the Ent wives were found hibernating in the Old Forest During the War of the Rings
Or
What if the Brown lands were not scorch earthed by Sauron
Or what if the Ent Wives were discovered in the Forest next to the Sea of Rhun
I like this Arnor could have and should have survived Tolkien didn't want them to survive so it didn't, even if had mutable chances the thrive the plot didn't allow it. we all have at least one good point as to why it could have been rebuilt so I will not add any myself just insert the one you like the most and pretend that's the one I said.
What if Westfold never fell and Gondor actually answered Rohan?
Very good
What if Fingolfin turned back?
with Arnor never falling, the united kingdom could have subdued Sauron conventionally. Once the Ring is found, Aragon might be swayed to take it from Frodo or Bilbo and reward them with the shire as fiefdom for it. It would then be locked away in Amon Sûl, Anuminas or even Minas Tirith, as far away from Saurons prison as possible. Since the Istari would have no need to come to middle earth, Sauron might have reclaimed the ring in time and doom the Kingdom of Aragon to the same fate as Numenor before it, because if we know one thing about men, is they do not learn from the mistakes of the past.
Maybe a great flood would destroy the lands along the Anduin, including Minas Tirith and the Ring might be claimed by Ulmo to remain in the ocean and thus damming the people of middle earth to suffer Sauron for all time or until a worthy champion would show himself and be presented with the opportunity to rid the world of this evil.
The story is as it is, but were I to be forced to reconcile a surviving Arnor, it would still suffer ills and not just become some paradise. The plague would still hit and it would hit all the harder for there being so much more people. The dunedain were still dwindling, intermarrying or simply dying off, the seldom talked about sort of light style apartheid where numenorean descent grants prominence would loose its grip on society. The lack of a threat such as Angmar nearby would corrupt the armed forces, making them stagnant, underfunded, and the coercion of taxes would meet growing opposition. I wouldn't be surprised if what we end up with by the time of Frodo, is just simply several more example of places like Bree, while an Aragorn viceroy sits almost powerless at Fornost or Amon Sûl, clutching his palantir. Perhaps being shown images of past grandeurs, of the might of numenor under Ar Pharazon, by a mysteriois shadow inside the deep orb.
Now at least that grants a story. 😅
And do a what if minas ithil never fell please
(sorry my bad English). What if Witch King have survived in Gondor battle ? And then Aragorn meet Witch King instead of a Troll in Black Gate ?
The troll at the black gate was originally supposed to be Sauron himself. But, Peter Jackson decided against that, and stuck a big troll there instead.
What if ar pharazon didn't take sauron prisoner?
What if Thingol survived?
What is Saruman was never allowed to live in Isengard
What if, not what is
Cheers
The development of the lands of Arnor could have been VERY bad in the War of the Ring. sauron was unable to find the One Ring because the Shire was a complete backwater isolated from any area Sauron considered relevant. Being in the heart of a vibrant and powerful Arnor, Sauron would know exactly where to find it, with dire consequences for the hobbits.
Well he can't exactly send his armies or the nazgul in a powerful and prosperous version of arnor as easily as he would have been able to do so in the original timeline ,the shire would more than likely possess an extremely important position in arnor as it would more than likely be one of the most important breadbasket of arnor or perhaps the primary breadbasket of arnor .It would be protected and defended by strong armies of the northern kingdom and it is right in the heart of arnor .
You keep saying "Arnor" when discussing Arvedui, but Arvedui (though in direct descent from Elendil) was only king of Arthedain. Arnor proper, if I recall correctly, hadn't existed for about 1100 years by that point (1945 TA), and Cardolan and Rhudaur were also long gone.
Arvedui was de facto King of Arthedain, but Argeleb I claimed to be de jure King of Arnor after the lines of Isildur died out in Cardolan and Rhudaur. So in reality, Arvedui was only King of Arthedain, but his claimed title would've been King of Arnor.
What if eru never made the ainur?
If Eru never made the Ainur:
The universe doesn't exist and the concept of reality remains purely hypothetical.
I hope we will see Arnor in Amazon Prime's prequel series towards the series' finale in the later seasons after Numenor has been sunk into the sea when Ar Pharazon unwisely decides to invade Aman while the faithful Numenoreans going into exile to establish the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor and form the last alliance with Gil Galad and Lord Elrond to deal with Sauron towards the end of the Second Age.
It was stupid to make them so far geographically from the other all that land in the middle its insane and when speaking of reunification you would want that land closer 🤦🏾♂️😂
If Arnor survived it's likely Sauron would have heard of The Shire much sooner as there would likely have been trade between it and other lands, and Sauron captured Gollum in 3009 and Gandalf only leant the truth in 3017!
Yes, Gandalf asked for the guard at the boarders of The Shire to be doubled in 3001, but Sauron could have sent the Corsairs of Umbar with Easterlings and Haradrim to attack Arnor! This would happen before Gandalf knew why for sure, and he would not be able to get Frodo away, and if he did, he would have taken him to Saruman, who was corrupted in 3000! Therefore Middle-Earth would have fallen to either Sauron or Saruman!
The fall of Arnor came to be a great aid to the Free People of Middle-Earth! So yes, it would have been nice if Arnor survived, but the rejection of Gondor and fall of Arthedain allowed the Heirs of Isildur a place to hide from Sauron and survive, and it brought the Free People of Middle-Earth the time they needed to bring about the utter fall of Sauron and Saruman.
In the end, the fall of Arthedain proved to be a good thing!
Is it a situation where it stays United?