Typically longer travel shocks like the one he has do not have a lock out feature because there application is for rough trail riding where the space in the shock can be used for more adjustment,. In his case, that was a lower end shock and it didn't have many adjustment feature for price savings.
As a mountain biker. I long suspected this was Bullshit, but don't have the technical background to call it. I loved that you did this! That being said, Kashima certainly looks good but anodized black take the win, not that it really matters all that much.
yo i work in the industry. I'm a long time watcher of the channel, I'm glad you getting in to the bike stuff. I'll try answer/clear up as much as possible: Firstly they are serviceable but you need to have the right tools and know what you are doing with them. Most local bike shops should be able to repair them fairly cheaply (for less than the tooling and consumables costs as least), otherwise they send them out to the manufacturer/distributor for service/repairs. The red dial you are turning is a cam (as in: it' has a lobe) that operates a long push rod (usually alloy, with a couple of dynamic seals along the length) that will be a needle valve for the rebound circuit, and by looks of it, that shock has no shim stack valving for the rebound so it is basically a tap for rebound only. To add a lockout you would need to do a 2 stepped camming knob system (note how the blue lockout knobs for this this style of shock are always in line with the red rebound knobs) and an extra push rod (with seals of course), this would then operate a lockout with some sort of spring preloaded blow through system or shim stack or both (you could never lockout a shock completely, the high pressure from compression of the shock comes from displacement of the shaft, not from the main piston where all the valves are. The pressure it could generate would be enough to blow the thin alloy body to pieces). As far as the coatings go, I'm no expert on the anodising thing, but I can say from experience that the Kashima coatings have amazing durability (might be due to other factors, overall design of the item, oil capacities, higher demographic of customers (more likely to follow service intervals), better initial assembly). One thing I recommend for all my pro level/affluent customers is to give them a service/oil change before it goes on the bike from new, even the most expensive shit just gets thrown together super roughly, and by the time time you get it, it's probably hit it's service interval anyway. FYI I don't own the business I work at or anything, it's not a scam for me to be able earn a living doing this shit. But I have, from first hand experience, saved a many certain future warranty claims, and if you're lucky it's still in warranty when it fails. The external oil reservoir/internal floating piston tube is for increased oil capacity(thermal capacity). Go up whistler one day and do a top to bottom run (no stopping fatty) and give it a touch, gets plenty hot. Oil temps are such a pain when tuning a shock, chances are for a quick rider the cold temp tune will feel terrible, quite an issue when you have to wait around half an hour away from the pits before the race runs. But external reservoir shocks also give the ability to run different oil flow designs, like the formerly Ohlins patented twin tube design, and many other almost patent infringing designs. I wont go into it but basically gives you a shock with adjustable high speed and low speed for both compression and rebound. Lots of check valves, lots of tiny little shims that you really don"t want to drop, etc. Oh shit, that was a bit long winded, maybe I was just offended when you said your car shocks work the same :P haha. I'll leave it at that, if any one's really that interested I'll try to remember to check the replies at some point. Peace out
Aaaaaand thats the sound of someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Thanks for this. I watched the video and really thought this guy seems to know what he's talking about and yet he actually seems to know nothing about bikes or how they operate. Too many people will watch this and assume the guy is way smarter than them and take his word for it but the minute he tried to claim the piggyback reservoir was for more air volume i knew the whole thing was bullshit.
@@ieuanf Yeah I was super bummed when he said incorrect things about the piggyback because his credibility went out the window. It's unfortunate that he mixes bullshit with true facts because he's entertaining to listen to.
That air you let out of the damper portion of the shock was actually about a 200 psi nitrogen charge on the back side of a small piston to keep pressure on the oil (damping fluid) to prevent cavitation during use. I was a bicycle mechanic for 15 years and specialized in suspension. It was fun watching this vegaio and all your other content
Same concept has been used on many types of shocks for quite some time. I believe Bilstein held the original patent on it. The Moto and mtb stuff is just much more refined.
@@brycedavis907 you are correct. The mtb shocks tend to mimic the desert racing truck suspension technology. It was always odd to me that my DH bike had better brakes and suspension (shock damping technology) than moto bikes and most cars.
You can change the air volume, and spring rate, without an extra dingus - most shocks have plastic inserts you can clip in to the main air chamber to reduce the volume. The extra dingus is beneficial for additional oil volume, which can keep the oil cooler on longer descents
I wont lie it was a difficult and scary experience to watch AvE talk about something I know more about than he does. Though every time he went back to metallurgy I felt a calming wave of comfort wash over my body.
That's actually not true. You want to keep the oil cool that's right. However the dingus just makes it easier to add more valves to the system. It's hard to put more then one valve where the rebound valve is for obvious space reasons. When you route the oil into the piggy aka dingus you can add as many valves as you like compression as well as rebound valves. The dingus also gives you more space to add an IFP. Which is a simple moving seal between the oil and the nitrogen. The damper he had didn't have it so it most likely be a shitty ride due to cavitation.
@@OpeKoney Agreed. It was a bit funny watching him figure out what was going on with the negative air chamber. Wish he would've actually gotten a Kashima shock and done some comparative tests though. It would be a big deal to the mtb industry if he proved it was BS.
The extra reservoir isn't to change the spring rate, it is to regulate the oil temperature better on long descents, the oil is typically kept under pressure by a secondary piston containing ~300psi nitrogen. Spring rates are essentially only affected by the compression damping (on higher end shocks, not the same as lockout) as well as the volumes of the positive and negative air chambers at full compression and extension.
The extra dingus is for additional oil volume, usually an oil reservoir backed by a pressurized bladder or IFP to increase oil pressure when piston speeds are high (to reduce the possibility of cavitation). Some shocks, like the Fox DHX2, also have high/low compression and rebound valving in the piggyback as well. The spring rate is only adjusted in the air can. On a coil shock, like the Fox DHX2, there is no air can-the piggyback dingus doesn't affect spring rate of the actual spring. Sure, the damping rates are changed and impact how the compression and rebound speeds, but not the actual spring rate. Also, please keep making more videos about bikes. It's awesome to learn more about the machining, metallurgy and whatnots. :) Carry on!
@divorcedme The upgrade of a mountain bicycle is a dirt bike. Yammyhammer no insurance necessary. You can turn around and go back UP that crazy hill. Its not as good as a snowmobile when it snows where you can drive literally anywhere in the wilderness you want without leaving a track, but it'll get you through the summer.
@divorcedme show me a racing motorcycle you can buy for 8k. 8k is the utter top end for bikes, road bikes or mountain bikes. You can go higher, but you're treading in that last percent up there looking for marginal gains. For 5k european you can get a completely race ready bike with actual components on it that are actually raced on actual world cup level. And if you're buying a bike like that, you're a crazy, spoilt idiot. Trust me, i know this, i have a bike like this. You can get a perfectly good bike where there's nothing wrong with it and it has all the functionality and robustness you'd ever need for 3k. How much is a new Ducati (because that's what we should be comparing it to)?
You're usually great at these, way off on how bike shocks work though... Lockouts are old news, proper damping and suspension setup to use the chain tension to hold the suspension at a set length is the new happy. And the little cylinder on those shocks, and all shocks, holds extra oil so it doesnt get as hot, it may have a pressure chamber, but that is to keep it under positive pressure during the rebound phase to prevent cavitation which would alter the motion control properties of the oil.
There is a tool bleeding air from Schraeder valves hidden on some of the Topeak multitools (And probably others - copying Topeak's designs is the next best thing to employing your own designers). It's just a round hole in one of the plastic parts of the tool with a pin in the centre to push in the centre of the valve.
Valve cap releases air too slowly I find. I'd have to take my gloves off to use fingernails and they're too trimmed. Beauty of mountain biking is no shortage of rocks and sticks.
The age old question: "It's better but is it $[n] better?". To me bikes have always been the best example of the law of diminishing returns. An £800 bike is perhaps twice as good as a £400 bike. A £2000 bike is maybe about 25% better than a £1000 bike. And even a professional rider would struggle to find much difference between a £10000 and a £5000 bike.
The difference between a 10k bike and a 5k bike could be 3 to 5 pounds. A lot of the $ difference would be for lighter wheels and tires which reduces rotational weight. Anybody, professional or not, would feel the difference. Go walk up a 2 mile hill with an extra 5lbs... feel the difference? The Tour De France has roughly 21k meters of climbing any extra weight is going to slow you down. Weight is just one of the limiters that is improved on a high $ bike. Other limiters are CdA, rolling resistance, frame suspension loss, etc. The law of diminishing returns is always in play but to suggest a professional would not benefit from marginal gains is silly.
Marketing reframes the question from "is it [objectively] better?" to "does it make the buyer /feel/ better?" Cyclists are weight weenies, although the misunderstand is of course that the actual goal is to unweight the buyer from as much disposable income as possible.
@@johngaudi8546 a hyphen on both sides of the word. - hyphens - (I added spaces) -hyphens- _ for italics _ _italics_ * bold * *bold* It gets a bit funny to try to embolden a struck through word, or _-struck through italics-_ but if you play with it you'll get the hang of it.
@@edwatts9890 Oh, I get it. You're being funny. That's very clever. Touché to you sir. It was more important to me to be polite and unassuming than to make sure I flew under the grammatical pedantry radar.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz THANKS! Like we used to put ascii codes in cells in excel to get colour dot matrix printers to print in different colours or bold etc. Wow I have proper learned something today thank you thank you *thank you*
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz Thank you very much. I really appreciate you taking the time to not only respond but explain and add. I'm surprised I never knew about this; reminds me of good ol' AOL days when someone first showed me that you can use certain symbols ( i.e. + - , " ") to filter search results as well. I think that still works, at least on some search engines.
As always a great video with some great info on anodizing. At a risk of getting into another condom conversation I will add my 2cents on lubrication...Hydrodynamic lubrication is not as efficient as mixed-film lubrication since you need higher viscosity to support the load and higher viscosity means viscous drag and lack of response, energy consumption, and lubricant breakdown thru shear. The most likely reason why the Kashima surfaces have such low friction is they operate in mixed film lubrication. In mixed film the lubricant pressurizes in the sealed pockets between solid metal contact and you get what is known as EHL or elastohydrodynamic lubrication where you get the best of both worlds no viscous drag and full lubricant support. The very small pores in the anodizing would ensure EHL (or micro EHL). This is the holy grail for lubrication engineers.
"Additional Little Dingus" is now my go-to phrase to describe piggyback shocks. The ALD is typically there to keep the nitrogen and shock oil circuits further from the heat build-up that occurs in the main shock body from repeated strokes so as to try and prevent "shock fade". Only really needed in applications that see sustained rear wheel hits over long intervals, e.g. downhill racing. Most modern air shocks adjust spring rate through the addition or subtraction of volume spacers / volume reducers / bottomless tokens. That's what your Fox graph at 21:19 is explaining. Would you like any more bike parts to d̶e̶s̶t̶r̶o̶y̶ investigate? I might have some parts at work. Great vejayo as per usual.
No Truer Words spoken by a Man 19:54 "And you see you can't force it in quick, it doesn't want to go, If you force it in nice and slow, it slides easy "
Dear Uncle Bumblefuck, I've just received one of your Cockford Ollie t-shirts and it's skookum as frig. Fits well and great quality. Makes me chuckle to myself when I wear it but to be honest that could be down to the meds.
Great video! I’m actually a bicycle mechanic turned mechanical engineer. Working on shocks was one of my favorite things to do in the shop. One thing that is often overlooked is that the stiction of the forks is more affected by the rigidity of the lowers and the tolerances between the bushings in the lowers and the stanchions. As you pointed out, unless you never service your bike, you should have lube which will dominate the friction factor. Also, the air (supposedly pure N2 from the factory) you let out of the damper end was to pressurize the damping oil with an internal floating piston to prevent cavitation and foaming of the oil, which is typically 5 wt. mineral oil. Loved the video. Keep them coming!
"Dye lots" similair to where the color actually resides in carpeting. These "dye lots" are what gets sealed when you apply some sort of stain gaurd protection. Dye lots sealed = no place for "stains" to adhere. Hence they wash out. I know..seemingly unrelated. Just extra info
Dye lots refer to which batch the product was made. It's not exactly the same every time, so you need the lot numbers to match up so your carpet, tile, wood/laminate flooring, etc. isn't slightly different colors. That's all a dye lot is, the batch it was made.
@@connivingcactus539 thst is correct . And its exactly what i said when i was presented with this info. Turns out that "they" refer to both of these things using the same terminology. It also matters if the carpet was produced using "batch" or "solution " dyeing. One is coloring the carpet after the threads have been produced. The other, the dye is added when they are producing the material from which the carpet fibers will later be produced
Would love to see a short motion picture of where and how you amassed this ocean of learnedness that you ever so kindly bestow upon us without even making us buy a ticket! -- I’ll admit, I’ve only been a viewer for about a year or so now, but I am absolutely enthralled with watching these tear downs, analysis, and learning myself about just how much I don’t know. Thank you, brother!
Lockouts actually work on the compression circuit of a shock. The lever actually bends the shock shims on the compression side to a shape where oil doesn't flow well through them, so that when enough force is applied, like hitting big boulder, the shims go flat again and let oil through. During this, rebound damping is the same speed as always, so that it doesn't pack into the travel after successive hits. As far as I know they don't do anything to the air spring.
Re: Presta vs Schrader valves, the reason I've heard for the presta valve's existence in the bike world is just for wheels. The valve stem diameter on a presta valve is smaller, so the drill hole in the bike rim is smaller too. For skinny/weak/light rims this is advantageous. You'd probably know more about that than I do. As for adjusting pressure with a tool, that's usually done when there's a gauge (pump) attached anyway, so the tool is there in either case. I love your bike videos, seeing the engineer/metallurgist's perspective is awesome.
Presta valve also allows for higher pressure that is commonly used for road bike tires and I've also found them to be much more easy to use as a personal preference albeit more fragile when physically abused.
@@HHalcyon Schrader actually is a higher pressure valve. Presta just allows for a smaller hole to be drilled and is more readily available with longer stems for deep rim profiles.
@@SamuelMcMain And here I thought Presta was invented just so some weirdo can come up to me in the night and say "You got a presta adapter?" because none of them seem to own one.
@@SamuelMcMain Schrader is useless for road tires, there is so little volume that the air escaping when you take off the pump lowers the PSI by like 30. A presta valve is normally closed and opens with air pressure, so no leaks when disconnecting the pump.
that dingus end has its own internal floating piston inside, when the damper shaft pushes into the main damper part, it has to displace some oil volume equal to that of the shaft. that displaced oil builds pressure in the dingus end. The internal floating piston inside the dingus end has its own adjustment via air pressure and other dials to control its movement, thus effecting the shocks resistance to compression, mostly in the end of its travel, when the displaced oil volume is greatest. moving the static position of the internal floating position also controls how much the shock resists bottoming out, and can be used to create platforms in the damping curve, (like a plateau on the graph) that can help resist pedaling induced oscillation.
+AvE If you look at 'most' Schrader valve dust caps, they normally have a little nipple on the top. You can normally just remove the dust cap from a Schrader valve and invert it so the nipple depresses the the valve pin and lets out air without the need for any tools (just like a Presta valve).
I used to work with a chap called Brian Johnson (not of AC/DC fame). He held many UK / eu / world motorcycle drag racing tittles. He was an old boy when I knew him and he has sadly passed away now but I used to love getting him talking about all the things he made for the bike. He built his own engine based on a bmw unit. He has the pistons and bores coated with something unusual that was very hard and slippy but I can’t for the life of me remember what the hell it was. He had 12 pistons done when he built the engine and they lasted so well he still had some left over when he retired the bike after a hell of a lot of use and abuse. My point is he used something really strange and created something that outlasted the competition / alternatives by miles and all from his home workshop. RIP Brian. All men are not created equal.
Coating was likely nickel silicone carbide, "nikasil". It's an incredibly hard, thin lining in your aluminum cylinder, what for, containing the infernal combustion. It allows for better heat transfer to the block/cylinder and tighter piston to cylinder clearance than an iron cylinder liner. Thus, it allows for more intense Dinosaur squeezing consumption. This plating was kind of black magic until the 90s, before which it was mainly used in elite racing. It's common place on many high performance engines today. It works very well, but if you screw up with some crappy fuel or some oil starvation, the coating will score and flake, and then you're outta luck, partner. Repair is a lot more complicated than just punching a bigger bore in your iron cylinder, and it was especially problematic before such plating became popular.
Title’s? I’m dyslexic. Can’t help it. Even auto correct can’t help sometimes. I don’t think it was nikasil. I was aware of nikasil at the time so It wouldn’t have seemed odd. It might have had something to do with boron carbide maybe? 🤔
I know I engaged MY safety squints when you were working with a pressurized contrivance. Neat video. Love seeing this automotive tech trickle down into more consumer goods, but wary at the same time. Consumer market is rife with dupes!
A couple of quick notes on this: When you turned that hex screw in the base of the shock, with the white plastic plug previously in it, you released the pressurized nitrogen on the gas side of the IFP(internal floating piston). That piston is there to separate the damper fluid from the pressurized nitrogen that compresses in order to compensate for the volume of the smaller stanchion entering the damper circuit's compartment. In those extra cartridges you mentioned that sit on the outside of the shock(commonly referred to as "piggybacks") the IFP is relocated to that small canister and the nitrogen chamber is accessible from the end of it through a similar valve or sometimes just a standard schrader valve. This allows the total damper fluid volume to increase and more of the damper circuit's chamber in the stanchion to be dedicated to more robust or intricate damper and rebound components in some cases as well. Also, that little ring that slides on the stanchion is actually to calculate your suspension sag percentage, not bottom out, so you know how much of the travel is used up by just your body weight. This helps with setting up your air pressure. This is interesting to see you delving into bicycle parts. As well, the chemical processes for the kashima coating are something I never bothered to look into but are welcome knowledge nonetheless.
@AvE, the additional Dingus at @21:00 is not for air, but for extra compression and rebound damping oil. It keeps it the stuff cooler this way and prevents the shock to "fade" during longer descents. Also, you should do more bike parts tear downs!!!
Presta is also pretty much standard on sew-up tires and rims. Presta is also a good choice for aero-style rims, what with them being very narrow. All of that poo mainly applies to higher end road bikes, though. I wouldn't want a Presta valve on my off road bike. Hell no.
Yeah, Fox charges ~100 USD extra (depending on the market) for the Factory (Kashima) vs Performance Elite with the same damper and internals. Still a bit of a rip-off, but not anywhere close to 2500 USD.
Today i learnt why Aluminium oxidising isn't anywhere near as bad as rust, so, thank you very much. You're a font of awesome information. Keep up the good work sir.
Been a mountain biker for 13 years, watching AvE for nearly 4, loving them both coming together. Now they're expensive new and rare second hand, but I'd love to see what you think of a rohloff gear hub. They take several thousand miles to bed in, have up to 14 gears in a 4 inch diameter hub, and can handle the torque of trans continental tandem riders. Shimano make one too that's a lot cheaper, the alfine. A gearbox like a pinion or effigear would be cool too. Don't know how practical any of that would be but it would be awesome
Ave, we would service the damper on shocks when I used to work at the bike shop. The inside contains an IFP (internal floating piston). The set screw has that hole in it so you can charge it with nitrogen. The set screw backs out against a rubber "puck" sealing the hole you made when you punctured the seal with your injection tool. The white bead is punched into the set screw to discourage end users from opening that side of the shock.
The additional dingus on some shocks is not to increase air volume. It is connected to the main oil chamber and has a piston (IFP) inside with the oil on one and high pressure air on the other side. It keeps the oil cooler and reduces foaming.
I would be interested in Uncle's thoughts on the Titanium Nitride finishes on various firearms. The "Gucci Glock" comes to mind after his recent pew pew review and his analysis of the various coatings in this video. Anyone else ?
That's an interesting thought. I'd love to hear his comments on other common explosive powered projectile tools. I have a Titanium Nitride finish on a custom Glock9 slide and what a chincy piece of crap coating that thing is! A scant 500 rounds through and I see wear marks all over the place inside.
Loving the bike content. Many riders don't want a full lockout on the rear shock because they want the suspension to remain active while climbing. The goal of that suspension is to keep the rear tire on the ground as best as possible and therefore maintain the traction of your drive wheel.
Some would say that you really don't want to lock your suspension for climbing. Leaving your suspension unlocked, or on a stiffer setting will increase traction by allowing your rear wheel to stay in contact with the terrain. Depending on the design of your suspension (such as DW link) it is advised to allow your rear triangle to articulate while climbing. TL:DR if you are going to lockout your suspension, you should've bought a hardtail.
"Dry Lubricity" - that was my nickname back in high school. I am only two years' worth of VJOs back now, UB! Working my way to catch up to real time!!!
I started working for an anti-vibration company about a year ago and I've learned a lot. Before I started, I always imagined an engine mount like the good ol days where it was just a bushing. But I learned that engine mounts are very complicated and filled with glycol (in most cases, not the case for Ford's new hev trucks for some reason). Not only that, they can be actively switched so the characteristics change depending on circumstances. But the general idea between the engine mounts we make and this shock absorber are the same; a fluid passing thru a designed orifice or path of some kind. Oh, and that rubber o ring for which you couldn't come up with the name... Snubber...
They're super simple. It's literally a cone on a thread. Pedal forwards screws the cone out to grip inside the hub, backwards it unscrews and doesn't grip the hub.
The primo freemix is an interesting one. I would love to see bumblfuck do the 60 or so 1/8 ball bearings all over the shop. Shimano nexus 8 speed internal hub. Thats a project.
I see your wearing gloves now, but years ago I can recall you having a purple coating on our hands for help in the cold shop, and as a fellow all weather worker I'm hoping you can tell me what it was since I seem to be unable to remember what video you talked about it in. Ifin anyone can help, I would greatly appreciate it!
Just brought a Release the Schmoo tee shirt from teespring for my little boy. Have to filter some of AVE productions for him but he thinks release the schmoo is hilarious!!! Not sure how he will explain it to his mates! Engineering’s been my thing for nearly 40 years since I took apart my parents washing machine when I was about 4 years old, which is why I love the vids. Keep up the great work. Andrew.
He should take the HAAS CNC machine and make some unique bicycle parts. I had to order a brake pull lever that pulls both the front and back brakes at once because I'm handicapped in my left hand due to a surgery gone wrong.
I'm glad you eventually got to the nerdgasm, I always enjoyed servicing suspension forks and shocks. Years ago Fox had one with an inertia valve. It saw vertical with a counterweight and once it hit a hard enough bump it would allow the shock to compress.
Do not try without clear plan At least you'll need an adapter to pressurize your IFP chamber and there are some critical precautions, tools and lubricants needed.
The air-spring is the black can you removed initially. The smaller diameter part unscrewed after that was the damper. Lockout doesn't act on the air-spring it just affects the compression circuit of the damper, usually by closing off the low-speed compression circuit by blocking oil flow through it (leaving the high-speed compression open to prevent damage to the shock in case you forget, start descending, and hit something big with the shock locked-out). Low speed compression is usually a simple orifice so it's easy to block unlike high-speed compression damping that usually uses a shim stack. The "dingus" thing on some shocks houses some of the valving and a nitrogen charge. The nitrogen fills the volume needed to compensate for the displacement of the shock shaft as it slides in and out of the damper and pressurises the oil which helps to prevent cavitation in the damping fluid.
Not sure if it's the same on the mountain bike shocks, but in the "piggy back" cylinder on motorbike shocks(dampers) is a piston or diaphragm that has nitrogen at somewhere around 180psi that keeps that main body (and oil within it) under pressure to help prevent cavitation as well as providing the spring assistance. In the early days of this design, they also put cooling fins on them, trying to keep the damping oil cooler to avoid a loss of viscosity.
Bicycle tire valves are interesting, next to Schrader and Presta there is the Dunlop valve (a.k.a. Woods valve or English valve) which is popular in Europe, South Asia, and Japan. One has to admire its design simplicity.
the reservoir is designed mainly to help keep oil temperatures down by having more oil cycling through everything. This will help prevent shock fade. Most higher end shocks will have an air bladder inside the resi to adjust pressure as well.
@@MrEazyE357 just that the oxide has caused me to blow holes in perfectly good aluminium trying to weld. It has a much higher melting point than the metal beneath it, so if you heat the oxide trying to weld the good metal falls out the bottom of what you are working on.
That's what oil is for. Scrape and clean the oxide off while coated with oil. Any oil that will keep the oxygen away from the aluminum. Weld while the oil is still present, a thin film is all that's required, oh and a shielding gas.
Well I learn something new every time I watch your videos. That and your hilarious dark humor are the reasons I’m subscribed haha. I wasn’t sure why aluminum didn’t rust as much. Makes sense now. They do oxidize over time but makes sense why at a much longer rate than steel.
I cant help but point out (like others have before me) that the "additional dingus" on most shocks isn't for altering the spring rate curve. With an air shock the spring rate curve is adjusted by inserting volume adjustment spacers of one form or another into the air-can itself.
The reason for the use of the coating is actually quite simple. When the current "upside down" style forks came out on motocross bikes the first run of them were not coated. This made for a huge problem in that they would contaminate the fork oil in a matter of hours. The coating was the answer to this, plus it looks cool.
Sometimes they jack up the prices PURELY to imbue the product with that elite snobbery of ‘it has to be awesome, did you see the price !?!?!’ Great review as always ! You are a genius !!!
Would love to hear your take on Diamond Like Coatings. I know they get used in oil rig gear. Where would they be practical to use on tools and maybe shocks or pistons.
Now that would be interesting. One of the main properties of cobolt (and diamonds) is the heat transfer. Curious what that would do to something like a shock's functionality.
@@eideticex DLC thermal properties are extremely sensitive to even small changes in composition. Small amount of impurities can make them good insulators. Hard to make them good conductors.
@@carlosflanders518 remember there is a difference between electrical and thermal conductivity. Depending on form carbon can be either. Also I believe DLC has different quality levels depending on method and purity. The highest level is supposed to be stupid hard as well as abrasion resistant.
You get that from this channel, when he pulled out the notebook with that on the front cover? I was trying to remember the mnemonic, but couldn't quite remember the details until i read your post, lol.
The gold dye is actually orange triple A (Orange AAA) . The color is is based on the length of time and voltage the part is submerged in the anodize solution as well as the dye concentration, length of time in the dye tank. The ph level and temp of the dye plays a huge roll in the hue or tint of the final color.
Y'know, no matter whether you're black, white, male, female; whether you say dah-duh, day-tuh, potayto, potahto, whether you measure in mm or thousandths, whether you call it aluminium or wrong: Have a nice day, y'hear?
Great teardown! From what I understand, the Presta valve is just sort of a holdover from bygone days when the idea on bicycles was to make the rims as narrow as possible for road racers. The presta was preferred because it was a smaller diameter valve that allowed for less material removal from the rim. Back when running 18c wide tires at 130psi was all the rage. Could be total bullshit, but makes sense to me!
the reason it did not have 'lock out' is so you can buy upgrades.
Jerry Bear are you a mountain biker?
@@zanetaylor7 I am
Mountain bike DLC
Jerry Bear You are not.
Typically longer travel shocks like the one he has do not have a lock out feature because there application is for rough trail riding where the space in the shock can be used for more adjustment,. In his case, that was a lower end shock and it didn't have many adjustment feature for price savings.
As a mountain biker. I long suspected this was Bullshit, but don't have the technical background to call it. I loved that you did this! That being said, Kashima certainly looks good but anodized black take the win, not that it really matters all that much.
Exactly all my friends wet their pants over kashima suspension. Sad to hear all the hype isn’t true
Oh damn skills with phil!!!
silent radmonster innit
Phil (K)metz!!
Hi Phil!
“Rotary wedge ramp... I guess you would call that a thread.” Lol
Seth Bracken, aka a spiral inclined plane
Why use one word when three will do :)
@@SuperbikeSurgeryTV the Archimedean wound ramp
"You dont want dry friction, you want hydrodynamic slip"
Think I read this on a Magnum box once...things are starting to add up here
I think the magic happens some time after you remove the slip. At least that's how it worked in my younger days.
Ah Magnum... that's those rubber slip seals especially formulated for hardened rods!
yo i work in the industry. I'm a long time watcher of the channel, I'm glad you getting in to the bike stuff.
I'll try answer/clear up as much as possible:
Firstly they are serviceable but you need to have the right tools and know what you are doing with them. Most local bike shops should be able to repair them fairly cheaply (for less than the tooling and consumables costs as least), otherwise they send them out to the manufacturer/distributor for service/repairs.
The red dial you are turning is a cam (as in: it' has a lobe) that operates a long push rod (usually alloy, with a couple of dynamic seals along the length) that will be a needle valve for the rebound circuit, and by looks of it, that shock has no shim stack valving for the rebound so it is basically a tap for rebound only.
To add a lockout you would need to do a 2 stepped camming knob system (note how the blue lockout knobs for this this style of shock are always in line with the red rebound knobs) and an extra push rod (with seals of course), this would then operate a lockout with some sort of spring preloaded blow through system or shim stack or both (you could never lockout a shock completely, the high pressure from compression of the shock comes from displacement of the shaft, not from the main piston where all the valves are. The pressure it could generate would be enough to blow the thin alloy body to pieces).
As far as the coatings go, I'm no expert on the anodising thing, but I can say from experience that the Kashima coatings have amazing durability (might be due to other factors, overall design of the item, oil capacities, higher demographic of customers (more likely to follow service intervals), better initial assembly). One thing I recommend for all my pro level/affluent customers is to give them a service/oil change before it goes on the bike from new, even the most expensive shit just gets thrown together super roughly, and by the time time you get it, it's probably hit it's service interval anyway. FYI I don't own the business I work at or anything, it's not a scam for me to be able earn a living doing this shit. But I have, from first hand experience, saved a many certain future warranty claims, and if you're lucky it's still in warranty when it fails.
The external oil reservoir/internal floating piston tube is for increased oil capacity(thermal capacity). Go up whistler one day and do a top to bottom run (no stopping fatty) and give it a touch, gets plenty hot. Oil temps are such a pain when tuning a shock, chances are for a quick rider the cold temp tune will feel terrible, quite an issue when you have to wait around half an hour away from the pits before the race runs.
But external reservoir shocks also give the ability to run different oil flow designs, like the formerly Ohlins patented twin tube design, and many other almost patent infringing designs. I wont go into it but basically gives you a shock with adjustable high speed and low speed for both compression and rebound. Lots of check valves, lots of tiny little shims that you really don"t want to drop, etc.
Oh shit, that was a bit long winded, maybe I was just offended when you said your car shocks work the same :P haha. I'll leave it at that, if any one's really that interested I'll try to remember to check the replies at some point.
Peace out
Whuh?
Aaaaaand thats the sound of someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Thanks for this. I watched the video and really thought this guy seems to know what he's talking about and yet he actually seems to know nothing about bikes or how they operate.
Too many people will watch this and assume the guy is way smarter than them and take his word for it but the minute he tried to claim the piggyback reservoir was for more air volume i knew the whole thing was bullshit.
Glad someone wrote this because I cba
Yes
@@ieuanf Yeah I was super bummed when he said incorrect things about the piggyback because his credibility went out the window. It's unfortunate that he mixes bullshit with true facts because he's entertaining to listen to.
That air you let out of the damper portion of the shock was actually about a 200 psi nitrogen charge on the back side of a small piston to keep pressure on the oil (damping fluid) to prevent cavitation during use. I was a bicycle mechanic for 15 years and specialized in suspension. It was fun watching this vegaio and all your other content
Same concept has been used on many types of shocks for quite some time. I believe Bilstein held the original patent on it. The Moto and mtb stuff is just much more refined.
@@brycedavis907 you are correct. The mtb shocks tend to mimic the desert racing truck suspension technology. It was always odd to me that my DH bike had better brakes and suspension (shock damping technology) than moto bikes and most cars.
I'd say the mx and offrod moto stuff is pretty much on par with mtb components, both of which eclipse most automotive dampers!
Most shocks with an inline IFP run more then 300 psi. The last xFusion shock I rebuilt called for 500 psi!
@@speergolddot motocross suspension lead the way and is still the leader in the field.
You can change the air volume, and spring rate, without an extra dingus - most shocks have plastic inserts you can clip in to the main air chamber to reduce the volume. The extra dingus is beneficial for additional oil volume, which can keep the oil cooler on longer descents
True, but it also makes it easier to adjust if you want to experiment with different settings
I wont lie it was a difficult and scary experience to watch AvE talk about something I know more about than he does. Though every time he went back to metallurgy I felt a calming wave of comfort wash over my body.
That's actually not true. You want to keep the oil cool that's right. However the dingus just makes it easier to add more valves to the system. It's hard to put more then one valve where the rebound valve is for obvious space reasons. When you route the oil into the piggy aka dingus you can add as many valves as you like compression as well as rebound valves. The dingus also gives you more space to add an IFP. Which is a simple moving seal between the oil and the nitrogen. The damper he had didn't have it so it most likely be a shitty ride due to cavitation.
@@OpeKoney Agreed. It was a bit funny watching him figure out what was going on with the negative air chamber. Wish he would've actually gotten a Kashima shock and done some comparative tests though. It would be a big deal to the mtb industry if he proved it was BS.
To really prove it though you would need a shock dyno and more than one sample of each... Just saying Kashima coating is smoother proves nothing
Learned something today, a strawberry blonde one is actually thinner than a regular blonde one. Wonders never cease.
The extra reservoir isn't to change the spring rate, it is to regulate the oil temperature better on long descents, the oil is typically kept under pressure by a secondary piston containing ~300psi nitrogen. Spring rates are essentially only affected by the compression damping (on higher end shocks, not the same as lockout) as well as the volumes of the positive and negative air chambers at full compression and extension.
The extra dingus is for additional oil volume, usually an oil reservoir backed by a pressurized bladder or IFP to increase oil pressure when piston speeds are high (to reduce the possibility of cavitation). Some shocks, like the Fox DHX2, also have high/low compression and rebound valving in the piggyback as well.
The spring rate is only adjusted in the air can. On a coil shock, like the Fox DHX2, there is no air can-the piggyback dingus doesn't affect spring rate of the actual spring. Sure, the damping rates are changed and impact how the compression and rebound speeds, but not the actual spring rate.
Also, please keep making more videos about bikes. It's awesome to learn more about the machining, metallurgy and whatnots. :) Carry on!
I was just skimming the comments hoping someone else pointed this put 👍
You know they have those with ENGINES on them right?
@divorcedme Yeah but you couldn't get any passing cyclist to polish you off.
@@Asdayasman *chuckles*
@divorcedme The upgrade of a mountain bicycle is a dirt bike. Yammyhammer no insurance necessary. You can turn around and go back UP that crazy hill. Its not as good as a snowmobile when it snows where you can drive literally anywhere in the wilderness you want without leaving a track, but it'll get you through the summer.
@divorcedme Because, regrettably, I am not the owner of a clitoris.
@divorcedme show me a racing motorcycle you can buy for 8k. 8k is the utter top end for bikes, road bikes or mountain bikes. You can go higher, but you're treading in that last percent up there looking for marginal gains. For 5k european you can get a completely race ready bike with actual components on it that are actually raced on actual world cup level. And if you're buying a bike like that, you're a crazy, spoilt idiot. Trust me, i know this, i have a bike like this.
You can get a perfectly good bike where there's nothing wrong with it and it has all the functionality and robustness you'd ever need for 3k. How much is a new Ducati (because that's what we should be comparing it to)?
"Release the schmoo" My wife hates it when I say that, whether I'm educamating myself via your videos, or dissapointing her in the bedroom.
Can you blame the poor lass? Schmoo isn't the sexiest word in the dickchunary
I see you talk to your wife in bed about how expensive the new bike is. Lol
You're usually great at these, way off on how bike shocks work though...
Lockouts are old news, proper damping and suspension setup to use the chain tension to hold the suspension at a set length is the new happy.
And the little cylinder on those shocks, and all shocks, holds extra oil so it doesnt get as hot, it may have a pressure chamber, but that is to keep it under positive pressure during the rebound phase to prevent cavitation which would alter the motion control properties of the oil.
Special tool to remove air from schrader valves, you mean like my special trailside jagged rock or stick?
There is a tool bleeding air from Schraeder valves hidden on some of the Topeak multitools (And probably others - copying Topeak's designs is the next best thing to employing your own designers). It's just a round hole in one of the plastic parts of the tool with a pin in the centre to push in the centre of the valve.
Or just use the valve cap the one he removed has a nipple on it to bleed out air
or your fingernail
Valve cap releases air too slowly I find. I'd have to take my gloves off to use fingernails and they're too trimmed. Beauty of mountain biking is no shortage of rocks and sticks.
@@bassackwards6184 But surely when out mountain biking you want to keep the air *inside*......
Only a humble man can appreciate sweater puppies
Winter is coming!
Probably the first time i watch your video and feel i knew more about the actual thing than the talking hand man. 😂👍
"Some kind of rotary wedge ramp" Uncle Bumblefuck just invented the screw
Hambini does a nice job taking on bike bullshit, his ceramic bearings video is great.
how good would an AvE/Hambini collaboration be? simultaneously the most informative and most crass assessment of bike tech imaginable
Any channel that calls out bullshit for what it is and how it done is a good channel.
Hambini’s professor “Always think the person you’re talking to is a FUCKING IMBECILE “
Plumbers faucet knurler is quickly becoming one of my all time favourite terms
The age old question: "It's better but is it $[n] better?".
To me bikes have always been the best example of the law of diminishing returns. An £800 bike is perhaps twice as good as a £400 bike. A £2000 bike is maybe about 25% better than a £1000 bike. And even a professional rider would struggle to find much difference between a £10000 and a £5000 bike.
The difference between 10000 and 5000 is ... 5000
Problem solved, didn’t even break a sweat. You are welcome!
@@jmcasler1512 But he never said there was a problem...
The difference between a 10k bike and a 5k bike could be 3 to 5 pounds. A lot of the $ difference would be for lighter wheels and tires which reduces rotational weight. Anybody, professional or not, would feel the difference. Go walk up a 2 mile hill with an extra 5lbs... feel the difference? The Tour De France has roughly 21k meters of climbing any extra weight is going to slow you down. Weight is just one of the limiters that is improved on a high $ bike. Other limiters are CdA, rolling resistance, frame suspension loss, etc. The law of diminishing returns is always in play but to suggest a professional would not benefit from marginal gains is silly.
Vince Dibona ... Just because he didn’t say quid pro quo doesn’t mean there wasn’t quid pro quo.
Marketing reframes the question from "is it [objectively] better?" to "does it make the buyer /feel/ better?"
Cyclists are weight weenies, although the misunderstand is of course that the actual goal is to unweight the buyer from as much disposable income as possible.
"We have a shock"
Well, imagine my -shock- surprise.
Hey can I ask how did you do that strikethrough text?
@@johngaudi8546 a hyphen on both sides of the word.
- hyphens - (I added spaces)
-hyphens-
_ for italics _
_italics_
* bold *
*bold*
It gets a bit funny to try to embolden a struck through word, or _-struck through italics-_ but if you play with it you'll get the hang of it.
@@edwatts9890 Oh, I get it. You're being funny. That's very clever. Touché to you sir.
It was more important to me to be polite and unassuming than to make sure I flew under the grammatical pedantry radar.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz THANKS! Like we used to put ascii codes in cells in excel to get colour dot matrix printers to print in different colours or bold etc. Wow I have proper learned something today thank you thank you *thank you*
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz Thank you very much. I really appreciate you taking the time to not only respond but explain and add. I'm surprised I never knew about this; reminds me of good ol' AOL days when someone first showed me that you can use certain symbols ( i.e. + - , " ") to filter search results as well. I think that still works, at least on some search engines.
As always a great video with some great info on anodizing. At a risk of getting into another condom conversation I will add my 2cents on lubrication...Hydrodynamic lubrication is not as efficient as mixed-film lubrication since you need higher viscosity to support the load and higher viscosity means viscous drag and lack of response, energy consumption, and lubricant breakdown thru shear. The most likely reason why the Kashima surfaces have such low friction is they operate in mixed film lubrication. In mixed film the lubricant pressurizes in the sealed pockets between solid metal contact and you get what is known as EHL or elastohydrodynamic lubrication where you get the best of both worlds no viscous drag and full lubricant support. The very small pores in the anodizing would ensure EHL (or micro EHL). This is the holy grail for lubrication engineers.
Bingo. Had to scroll pretty far to find the right answer 😅
Where did your hands go?
UB had to get 'em ampupertated after the purple affliction finally took it's toll.
I’m thinking he is on vacation and had to hire a hand model to fill in for him. So they had to wear gloves to hide their identity
I'm guessing the Frozen North is approaching liquid nitrogen temperatures. It's that time of year y'know.
Some folks are trying to fingers out his hands. 🤣
They're on to him...closing in on his fingerprints.
"Additional Little Dingus" is now my go-to phrase to describe piggyback shocks. The ALD is typically there to keep the nitrogen and shock oil circuits further from the heat build-up that occurs in the main shock body from repeated strokes so as to try and prevent "shock fade". Only really needed in applications that see sustained rear wheel hits over long intervals, e.g. downhill racing. Most modern air shocks adjust spring rate through the addition or subtraction of volume spacers / volume reducers / bottomless tokens. That's what your Fox graph at 21:19 is explaining. Would you like any more bike parts to d̶e̶s̶t̶r̶o̶y̶ investigate? I might have some parts at work. Great vejayo as per usual.
Pro Tip: Keep tools in your car, so when you're driving 'round you can take the shocks off a bike you found on the side of the road.
No Truer Words spoken by a Man 19:54
"And you see you can't force it in quick, it doesn't want to go,
If you force it in nice and slow, it slides easy "
Dear Uncle Bumblefuck, I've just received one of your Cockford Ollie t-shirts and it's skookum as frig. Fits well and great quality. Makes me chuckle to myself when I wear it but to be honest that could be down to the meds.
I have the stickers on my van doors 😎
BECAUSE I'M COOL AS FUUUURK (not)
The only possible way to get skookumer than that is if there was a shirt that actually said Skookum as Frig on it...
peglor I want to say there is or was? I think I have one.
@@TylerLL2112 Still available on teespring, still skookumer than the average short... :-D
Great video! I’m actually a bicycle mechanic turned mechanical engineer. Working on shocks was one of my favorite things to do in the shop.
One thing that is often overlooked is that the stiction of the forks is more affected by the rigidity of the lowers and the tolerances between the bushings in the lowers and the stanchions. As you pointed out, unless you never service your bike, you should have lube which will dominate the friction factor.
Also, the air (supposedly pure N2 from the factory) you let out of the damper end was to pressurize the damping oil with an internal floating piston to prevent cavitation and foaming of the oil, which is typically 5 wt. mineral oil.
Loved the video. Keep them coming!
"Dye lots" similair to where the color actually resides in carpeting. These "dye lots" are what gets sealed when you apply some sort of stain gaurd protection. Dye lots sealed = no place for "stains" to adhere. Hence they wash out.
I know..seemingly unrelated. Just extra info
Dye lots refer to which batch the product was made. It's not exactly the same every time, so you need the lot numbers to match up so your carpet, tile, wood/laminate flooring, etc. isn't slightly different colors. That's all a dye lot is, the batch it was made.
@@connivingcactus539 thst is correct . And its exactly what i said when i was presented with this info. Turns out that "they" refer to both of these things using the same terminology. It also matters if the carpet was produced using "batch" or "solution " dyeing. One is coloring the carpet after the threads have been produced. The other, the dye is added when they are producing the material from which the carpet fibers will later be produced
oh, Jefferey Epstien didnt kill himself
Would love to see a short motion picture of where and how you amassed this ocean of learnedness that you ever so kindly bestow upon us without even making us buy a ticket! -- I’ll admit, I’ve only been a viewer for about a year or so now, but I am absolutely enthralled with watching these tear downs, analysis, and learning myself about just how much I don’t know. Thank you, brother!
The secundary chamber is filled with nitrogen and helps the oil not to foam up. And may i say it hurt me the whole video.
Lockouts actually work on the compression circuit of a shock. The lever actually bends the shock shims on the compression side to a shape where oil doesn't flow well through them, so that when enough force is applied, like hitting big boulder, the shims go flat again and let oil through. During this, rebound damping is the same speed as always, so that it doesn't pack into the travel after successive hits. As far as I know they don't do anything to the air spring.
Re: Presta vs Schrader valves, the reason I've heard for the presta valve's existence in the bike world is just for wheels. The valve stem diameter on a presta valve is smaller, so the drill hole in the bike rim is smaller too. For skinny/weak/light rims this is advantageous. You'd probably know more about that than I do. As for adjusting pressure with a tool, that's usually done when there's a gauge (pump) attached anyway, so the tool is there in either case. I love your bike videos, seeing the engineer/metallurgist's perspective is awesome.
Presta valve also allows for higher pressure that is commonly used for road bike tires and I've also found them to be much more easy to use as a personal preference albeit more fragile when physically abused.
@@HHalcyon Schrader actually is a higher pressure valve. Presta just allows for a smaller hole to be drilled and is more readily available with longer stems for deep rim profiles.
@@SamuelMcMain And here I thought Presta was invented just so some weirdo can come up to me in the night and say "You got a presta adapter?" because none of them seem to own one.
@@SamuelMcMain Schrader is useless for road tires, there is so little volume that the air escaping when you take off the pump lowers the PSI by like 30.
A presta valve is normally closed and opens with air pressure, so no leaks when disconnecting the pump.
@@coast2coast00 That happens when you don't know how to operate a pump properly.
that dingus end has its own internal floating piston inside, when the damper shaft pushes into the main damper part, it has to displace some oil volume equal to that of the shaft. that displaced oil builds pressure in the dingus end. The internal floating piston inside the dingus end has its own adjustment via air pressure and other dials to control its movement, thus effecting the shocks resistance to compression, mostly in the end of its travel, when the displaced oil volume is greatest. moving the static position of the internal floating position also controls how much the shock resists bottoming out, and can be used to create platforms in the damping curve, (like a plateau on the graph) that can help resist pedaling induced oscillation.
That bouncing oil drip, that's exactly how full synthetic engine oil behaves.
Water does as well. Smarter every day has a pretty extensive video about it, definitely worth a watch
Uuuuh surface tension 🤘
+AvE If you look at 'most' Schrader valve dust caps, they normally have a little nipple on the top. You can normally just remove the dust cap from a Schrader valve and invert it so the nipple depresses the the valve pin and lets out air without the need for any tools (just like a Presta valve).
I used to work with a chap called Brian Johnson (not of AC/DC fame).
He held many UK / eu / world motorcycle drag racing tittles. He was an old boy when I knew him and he has sadly passed away now but I used to love getting him talking about all the things he made for the bike. He built his own engine based on a bmw unit. He has the pistons and bores coated with something unusual that was very hard and slippy but I can’t for the life of me remember what the hell it was. He had 12 pistons done when he built the engine and they lasted so well he still had some left over when he retired the bike after a hell of a lot of use and abuse. My point is he used something really strange and created something that outlasted the competition / alternatives by miles and all from his home workshop. RIP Brian. All men are not created equal.
Tittles? Is that another word for small titties?
You're probably thinking of Nikasil! Cool stuff and still used today.
Coating was likely nickel silicone carbide, "nikasil". It's an incredibly hard, thin lining in your aluminum cylinder, what for, containing the infernal combustion. It allows for better heat transfer to the block/cylinder and tighter piston to cylinder clearance than an iron cylinder liner. Thus, it allows for more intense Dinosaur squeezing consumption. This plating was kind of black magic until the 90s, before which it was mainly used in elite racing. It's common place on many high performance engines today. It works very well, but if you screw up with some crappy fuel or some oil starvation, the coating will score and flake, and then you're outta luck, partner. Repair is a lot more complicated than just punching a bigger bore in your iron cylinder, and it was especially problematic before such plating became popular.
Oh, yes and there is another one that came along called "alusil" It has similar properties, but it holds up better to sulfur in the fuel.
Title’s? I’m dyslexic. Can’t help it. Even auto correct can’t help sometimes.
I don’t think it was nikasil. I was aware of nikasil at the time so It wouldn’t have seemed odd. It might have had something to do with boron carbide maybe? 🤔
That o ring isnt to tell you where it bottoms out but to set the sag.
I love how you changed your language and assumed mechanical background of viewers for bicycle repair guys 😂
Wtf is that supposed to mean huh
It's was my birthday today in the 5th. This video was my only gift and just what I wanted and needed. Thank you
My wife is a pressure vessel, I tried to poke her Schrader valve to release some air, but she released loads of schmoo
TMI
:D
@Yo you should see her spring rate
Vile unfunny joke
@@nunyabiz2016 that's why I divorced you darling, take your schmoo elsewhere
I know I engaged MY safety squints when you were working with a pressurized contrivance.
Neat video. Love seeing this automotive tech trickle down into more consumer goods, but wary at the same time. Consumer market is rife with dupes!
Even a blackout in the shop never puts of the main man. Hard core!
Off
A couple of quick notes on this: When you turned that hex screw in the base of the shock, with the white plastic plug previously in it, you released the pressurized nitrogen on the gas side of the IFP(internal floating piston). That piston is there to separate the damper fluid from the pressurized nitrogen that compresses in order to compensate for the volume of the smaller stanchion entering the damper circuit's compartment. In those extra cartridges you mentioned that sit on the outside of the shock(commonly referred to as "piggybacks") the IFP is relocated to that small canister and the nitrogen chamber is accessible from the end of it through a similar valve or sometimes just a standard schrader valve. This allows the total damper fluid volume to increase and more of the damper circuit's chamber in the stanchion to be dedicated to more robust or intricate damper and rebound components in some cases as well.
Also, that little ring that slides on the stanchion is actually to calculate your suspension sag percentage, not bottom out, so you know how much of the travel is used up by just your body weight. This helps with setting up your air pressure.
This is interesting to see you delving into bicycle parts. As well, the chemical processes for the kashima coating are something I never bothered to look into but are welcome knowledge nonetheless.
17 minutes or so in. RELEASE THE SCHMOO! :-)
Well, he has been stroking that shaft for minutes.
@AvE, the additional Dingus at @21:00 is not for air, but for extra compression and rebound damping oil. It keeps it the stuff cooler this way and prevents the shock to "fade" during longer descents.
Also, you should do more bike parts tear downs!!!
Presta valves are made so you can thread them out, throw them away, and drill out your rim for a Schrader. 😉
And you need special presta valves for tubeless setups which are more expensive...When schrader valves have removable cores as part of their design.
Presta is also pretty much standard on sew-up tires and rims. Presta is also a good choice for aero-style rims, what with them being very narrow. All of that poo mainly applies to higher end road bikes, though. I wouldn't want a Presta valve on my off road bike. Hell no.
We use Schrader valves in refrigeration as well in access ports.
You'll find Schraders everywhere once you start looking for 'em. They're a very well designed little component.
the 2500 for the bike with fox stuff isn't just the suspension, its got nicer wheels, seatpost, brakes and rotors, and cranks from what I can tell
2500 for the fork
The price at the top of the page for that entire bike was 10k...
@@luciussulla987 yup. The bike was 2500 more than the lesser expensive model
Yeah, Fox charges ~100 USD extra (depending on the market) for the Factory (Kashima) vs Performance Elite with the same damper and internals. Still a bit of a rip-off, but not anywhere close to 2500 USD.
Today i learnt why Aluminium oxidising isn't anywhere near as bad as rust, so, thank you very much. You're a font of awesome information. Keep up the good work sir.
19:54
Nope, can't think of a single joke or innuendo to make here.
Me neither.
Alumulum?
Been a mountain biker for 13 years, watching AvE for nearly 4, loving them both coming together.
Now they're expensive new and rare second hand, but I'd love to see what you think of a rohloff gear hub. They take several thousand miles to bed in, have up to 14 gears in a 4 inch diameter hub, and can handle the torque of trans continental tandem riders.
Shimano make one too that's a lot cheaper, the alfine. A gearbox like a pinion or effigear would be cool too. Don't know how practical any of that would be but it would be awesome
a "rotary wedge ramp", or "I guess they would call that a thread" :-)
I bet you that is the same way the man that invented it must have stumbled upon the thread.
says this at 20:38
Ave, we would service the damper on shocks when I used to work at the bike shop. The inside contains an IFP (internal floating piston). The set screw has that hole in it so you can charge it with nitrogen. The set screw backs out against a rubber "puck" sealing the hole you made when you punctured the seal with your injection tool. The white bead is punched into the set screw to discourage end users from opening that side of the shock.
This whole video, all I saw were parts and tools moving on their own.
The additional dingus on some shocks is not to increase air volume. It is connected to the main oil chamber and has a piston (IFP) inside with the oil on one and high pressure air on the other side. It keeps the oil cooler and reduces foaming.
I would be interested in Uncle's thoughts on the Titanium Nitride finishes on various firearms. The "Gucci Glock" comes to mind after his recent pew pew review and his analysis of the various coatings in this video.
Anyone else ?
That's an interesting thought. I'd love to hear his comments on other common explosive powered projectile tools. I have a Titanium Nitride finish on a custom Glock9 slide and what a chincy piece of crap coating that thing is! A scant 500 rounds through and I see wear marks all over the place inside.
Loving the bike content. Many riders don't want a full lockout on the rear shock because they want the suspension to remain active while climbing. The goal of that suspension is to keep the rear tire on the ground as best as possible and therefore maintain the traction of your drive wheel.
Everything is a fluid given enough time and large enough scale.
Belias Phyre Is this a joke or are you trying to sound smart?
@@bloogaming8827 Have you ever studied Geology?
Belias Phyre So that would be the latter
By that logic everything is a gas if you've got a large enough window/scale.
You're not wrong, but you sure as shit ain't right either.
Tzuede Off the Cuff Glass is an amorphous solid
Some would say that you really don't want to lock your suspension for climbing. Leaving your suspension unlocked, or on a stiffer setting will increase traction by allowing your rear wheel to stay in contact with the terrain. Depending on the design of your suspension (such as DW link) it is advised to allow your rear triangle to articulate while climbing. TL:DR if you are going to lockout your suspension, you should've bought a hardtail.
"Dry Lubricity" - that was my nickname back in high school.
I am only two years' worth of VJOs back now, UB! Working my way to catch up to real time!!!
I love AvE and I love cycling. This is the video I've been waiting for!
Best line ever: it's the debutante's ball. LMAO!
I started working for an anti-vibration company about a year ago and I've learned a lot. Before I started, I always imagined an engine mount like the good ol days where it was just a bushing. But I learned that engine mounts are very complicated and filled with glycol (in most cases, not the case for Ford's new hev trucks for some reason). Not only that, they can be actively switched so the characteristics change depending on circumstances. But the general idea between the engine mounts we make and this shock absorber are the same; a fluid passing thru a designed orifice or path of some kind.
Oh, and that rubber o ring for which you couldn't come up with the name... Snubber...
You should take apart a BMX free coaster hub, the mechanism has always interested me
They're super simple. It's literally a cone on a thread. Pedal forwards screws the cone out to grip inside the hub, backwards it unscrews and doesn't grip the hub.
The primo freemix is an interesting one. I would love to see bumblfuck do the 60 or so 1/8 ball bearings all over the shop. Shimano nexus 8 speed internal hub. Thats a project.
@@staalcyclesecurities1423 yeah I've commented asking for a rohloff/alfine/gearbox, no idea how likely it is to happen but you never know
I see your wearing gloves now, but years ago I can recall you having a purple coating on our hands for help in the cold shop, and as a fellow all weather worker I'm hoping you can tell me what it was since I seem to be unable to remember what video you talked about it in. Ifin anyone can help, I would greatly appreciate it!
Amazing floating tool trick 👌 invisible hands get me every time
Just brought a Release the Schmoo tee shirt from teespring for my little boy. Have to filter some of AVE productions for him but he thinks release the schmoo is hilarious!!! Not sure how he will explain it to his mates! Engineering’s been my thing for nearly 40 years since I took apart my parents washing machine when I was about 4 years old, which is why I love the vids. Keep up the great work. Andrew.
Finally some more mtb stuff! As an avid mtber I love it. keep on posting stuff like this brotha!
He should take the HAAS CNC machine and make some unique bicycle parts. I had to order a brake pull lever that pulls both the front and back brakes at once because I'm handicapped in my left hand due to a surgery gone wrong.
I'm glad you eventually got to the nerdgasm, I always enjoyed servicing suspension forks and shocks. Years ago Fox had one with an inertia valve. It saw vertical with a counterweight and once it hit a hard enough bump it would allow the shock to compress.
Pretty sophistomakated really. I’d be interested to see how the electromagnetique ones work. But I don’t think the budget stretches that far.
The real reason Presta Valves exist is because they're thinner and therefore require a smaller hole in the rim making the weakspot less worse
I imagine the reason that the oil inside looked funny is that it would have contained some sort of defoaming surfactant.
defoaming isn't all that important because this one has an IFP tube that prevents any cavitation or bubble formation.
Always been a fan of the channel but am an even bigger MTBer. Love the crossover and finally understanding how these things work!
Just realized how easy it is to service my shocks 👍 never had mine apart tbh, another interesting video.
Do not try without clear plan
At least you'll need an adapter to pressurize your IFP chamber and there are some critical precautions, tools and lubricants needed.
It's ok lads I'm a time served mechanical/electrical engineer, any specific tools I would most likely make tbh.
The air-spring is the black can you removed initially.
The smaller diameter part unscrewed after that was the damper.
Lockout doesn't act on the air-spring it just affects the compression circuit of the damper, usually by closing off the low-speed compression circuit by blocking oil flow through it (leaving the high-speed compression open to prevent damage to the shock in case you forget, start descending, and hit something big with the shock locked-out). Low speed compression is usually a simple orifice so it's easy to block unlike high-speed compression damping that usually uses a shim stack.
The "dingus" thing on some shocks houses some of the valving and a nitrogen charge. The nitrogen fills the volume needed to compensate for the displacement of the shock shaft as it slides in and out of the damper and pressurises the oil which helps to prevent cavitation in the damping fluid.
"Embiggen the thickness" she said.
"Increase the amplitudes" I sais.
Not sure if it's the same on the mountain bike shocks, but in the "piggy back" cylinder on motorbike shocks(dampers) is a piston or diaphragm that has nitrogen at somewhere around 180psi that keeps that main body (and oil within it) under pressure to help prevent cavitation as well as providing the spring assistance. In the early days of this design, they also put cooling fins on them, trying to keep the damping oil cooler to avoid a loss of viscosity.
Take apart the orifice! You’ll discover some washers, it’s a variable valve!!! I think you’ll enjoy it and nerdgasm rather immediately
Bicycle tire valves are interesting, next to Schrader and Presta there is the Dunlop valve (a.k.a. Woods valve or English valve) which is popular in Europe, South Asia, and Japan. One has to admire its design simplicity.
19:00 I love when Uncle Bumblefuck gets excited!
the reservoir is designed mainly to help keep oil temperatures down by having more oil cycling through everything. This will help prevent shock fade. Most higher end shocks will have an air bladder inside the resi to adjust pressure as well.
That oxide is what makes welding aluminium so challenging. Lol
Lol? I'm not seeing the humor, let alone laughing out loud.
@@MrEazyE357 just that the oxide has caused me to blow holes in perfectly good aluminium trying to weld. It has a much higher melting point than the metal beneath it, so if you heat the oxide trying to weld the good metal falls out the bottom of what you are working on.
That's what oil is for. Scrape and clean the oxide off while coated with oil. Any oil that will keep the oxygen away from the aluminum. Weld while the oil is still present, a thin film is all that's required, oh and a shielding gas.
@@GlennHamblin hey thank you sir,
will give that a shot.
@@andyreid7274
Let me know about your success!!
Fuck me that glove joke had my laughing so hard it hurt. Your delivery is fantastic.
18:22 for shmoo release!
Well I learn something new every time I watch your videos. That and your hilarious dark humor are the reasons I’m subscribed haha. I wasn’t sure why aluminum didn’t rust as much. Makes sense now. They do oxidize over time but makes sense why at a much longer rate than steel.
Aluminium 🎉 got there in the end🤣
I cant help but point out (like others have before me) that the "additional dingus" on most shocks isn't for altering the spring rate curve. With an air shock the spring rate curve is adjusted by inserting volume adjustment spacers of one form or another into the air-can itself.
Fella! You keep playing with that your gonna go blind!
What did you think the safety squints were for?
The reason for the use of the coating is actually quite simple. When the current "upside down" style forks came out on motocross bikes the first run of them were not coated. This made for a huge problem in that they would contaminate the fork oil in a matter of hours. The coating was the answer to this, plus it looks cool.
A "This old Tony" collaboration would be neat.
Sometimes they jack up the prices PURELY to imbue the product with that elite snobbery of ‘it has to be awesome, did you see the price !?!?!’ Great review as always ! You are a genius !!!
You released the smoo!
Love your addition of images and graphes thanks for all the free knowledge
I definitely wont be sending my shock to you for service lol
Service it yourself. It's easy. Unless you need damper service.
Would love to hear your take on Diamond Like Coatings. I know they get used in oil rig gear. Where would they be practical to use on tools and maybe shocks or pistons.
Now that would be interesting. One of the main properties of cobolt (and diamonds) is the heat transfer. Curious what that would do to something like a shock's functionality.
@@eideticex DLC thermal properties are extremely sensitive to even small changes in composition. Small amount of impurities can make them good insulators. Hard to make them good conductors.
@@carlosflanders518 remember there is a difference between electrical and thermal conductivity. Depending on form carbon can be either. Also I believe DLC has different quality levels depending on method and purity. The highest level is supposed to be stupid hard as well as abrasion resistant.
Don't PANIC:
Positive is Anode, Negative Is Cathode
but if the saying is "DON'T panic", doesn't that mean to take all the "is" words and make 'em "isn't"? Just asking, from a logic standpoint...
Reminds me of a joke about an ox and a red cat...
W. Bush oh this old thing:
learning-laboratory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/CatAn.jpg
alternatively - "Cations are Pussy-tive" (this actually did help me get through enginerding school)
You get that from this channel, when he pulled out the notebook with that on the front cover? I was trying to remember the mnemonic, but couldn't quite remember the details until i read your post, lol.
The gold dye is actually orange triple A (Orange AAA) . The color is is based on the length of time and voltage the part is submerged in the anodize solution as well as the dye concentration, length of time in the dye tank. The ph level and temp of the dye plays a huge roll in the hue or tint of the final color.
Y'know, no matter whether you're black, white, male, female; whether you say dah-duh, day-tuh, potayto, potahto, whether you measure in mm or thousandths, whether you call it aluminium or wrong:
Have a nice day, y'hear?
What happens if I do all of the above? And use kph, mph, and kts?
Great teardown! From what I understand, the Presta valve is just sort of a holdover from bygone days when the idea on bicycles was to make the rims as narrow as possible for road racers. The presta was preferred because it was a smaller diameter valve that allowed for less material removal from the rim. Back when running 18c wide tires at 130psi was all the rage. Could be total bullshit, but makes sense to me!