As usual, the best treatment of this subject on youtube. One thing I hoped Doddy would do is, for pedagogical purposes, explicitly call it "rebound damping" and "compression damping" rather than the shorthand "rebound" and "compression" since, to a complete beginner, a statement like "to reduce the pogo stick effect, add more rebound" sounds like the opposite of what you want to do-since an actual pogo stick already has LOTS of rebound. For teaching purposes "to reduce the pogo stick effect add more rebound damping" makes more sense and may be less confusing to a novice, though I understand the shorthand phrasing is completely understood by experienced suspension users.
USD forks were introduced to motocross in the early 90's, with the road bikes not far behind. Conventional forks are still used on many models other than sports bikes. So USD forks on motorbikes are still called USD and conventional are still conventional. Exactly the same as on mountainbikes.
Exactly! I have made this comment at least a handful of times now! It drives me absolutely mad that an obviously talented mechanic and tech journalist keeps on spreading misinformation.
Also the longer the travel of the fork the more it needs to hang below the axle in a conventional fork. Just have a look at the last of the conventional MX forks. They were having ground clearance issues. MTB doesn't have anywhere near as much travel so it can all be packaged above the axle.
Great instructional video! NJ USA newbie here. This really helped me understand the functionality of the front and rear suspension. This also helps me decide if I should upgrade my suspension or make some minor changes/adjustments to them. Thanks for posting! & Keep Riding.
I agree with the below comments-you are a great teacher and the amount of detail is perfect. I am new to this sport and want to learn as much as possible. Thank you
Yeah man I had some circa 2000 Z3 Flylight 100’s on my jump bike as I couldn’t stretch to a Z1 drop off. I remember the launch of the Boxxer and the SID, what an exciting time it was...
Hmmm yhea. I'd be amazed if they shipped Forks by air mate so... 🤔 If flying your bike make sure you take most of the air out of your suspension.. Maybe you could stash whatever you might need in there instead... 🤔 😉
If your talking about rear suspension it’s based on the travel that the axle moves in and with the added leverage and depending on design the axle will move 130mm rather than the actual shock shaft being this size.
At one time I owned a Lefty fork. This was on my Cannondale Jekyll. It got a lot of looks. Besides that it was also great for riding in wet conditions because you wouldn’t get it caked up like on a standard fork.
A couple of things here. Moto-forks started out just like our conventional forks of today. The "upside down/inverted" fork came much later than the conventional fork. Doddy, you're probably too young to have known that. :) And for Gods sake people. Your mountain bike has a FORK on the front (singular), it's not called FORKs (plural), there is just one fork on your bike. Sorry, just a pet-peeve of mine.
First suspension fork was a triple clamp sr suntour which came on my Saracen Raw DH circa 1998, they were absolutely poo. I upgraded them to a set of RST 461DH with a massive 100mm travel, the off white with red lettering looked mint on the black and red bike. I then upgraded the rear shock from a no brand piece of crap to a rock shock deluxe I got off a friends brothers old voodoo frame. Thing was a tank but a plusher tank after those tweaks. That was the glory days of the sport, the World Cup XC and Dual came to Newnham Park in Plymouth, as a 12 year old lad going to a place within riding distance of my house and watching Steve Peat , Brain Lopes, Wade Boots etc race made a serious impression. The money in the sport back then was crazy!
The top MotoGp Forks are hardly "over built" for strength. They're as light as they can possibly be, the expense isn't important in any way which is what actually gets the hit, the price of making them. Yes they're to big and heavy for a MtB, yes they can be heavier as the engine takes the strain not you but over built? Nope. Great video though as usual.
I just my set my settings to midway and just go out and enjoy my riding instead of messing my head up with a myriad of different tuning ways. Mountain biking doesn't need to be complicated.
Great work Doddy and the GMBN team! This video is very informative! 😀 Hopefully in the next video Doddy would touch on the DVO suspensions since that will be the one that I am having for my bike. Would really appreciate that! Ride safe always guys and God bless! 😀
#askGMBNtech I have had a hard time finding good discussion on when, for whom, and why the mid range forks are good enough. Or perhaps more important what terrains are mid range forks always going to be adequate, when/what will be speeds that just reach the limits of those forks. Another point in that discussion I'd like to see is for bigger riders, bigger weights. Currently, I know low end forks are adequate for many folk because they really don't ride at all. Mid range forks tend to get called trash by most riders' comments and reviews with very little reasoning in the dismissal.
I'm as confused as you are in this regard. It'd be nice to hear Doddy's thoughts on it. I have been riding a 10 year old, second-hand Rockshox coil fork for years. I have no complaints. I recently built a bike with a Suntour Durolux 36 and have been really enjoying it. Both of these forks are considered mid-tier, but I've had a blast riding them. Is this because I don't know how nice the mega-expensive ones are? Is it because I don't ride hard or fast enough to need the snazziest fork? I am ~200 lbs, maybe a touch more with all of my riding gear, and these forks have held up well under me.
why does everyone say fast and slow rebound and compression but the adjustment is + or - ??? Do I put more (plus) to slow or speed up the respond or compression ????
The other advantage of running USD forks is less unsprung weight,, which is why high performance road and dirt motorbikes tend to run them. The big negative of USDs, however, is having the fork inners far more exposed to damage from rocks, etc.
Would like to know a bit more on spacers in forks. Can't wrap my head around advantages for my riding style. I usually like rough terrain with drops and rocks. Black diamond trails. Thanks Doddy for the tech info.
Are you talking like volume spacers? Ok say for example your 90kg and to get the correct sag for yourself you need to use 25% for sag. To get this sag number for yourself you might need to run say 120 psi which is max psi for fox forks adding volume spacers should reduce the air pressure needed to do the same effect. So after you put in say 3 volume spacers you might be able to knock the psi back to a 100psi by doing that you will also create a much more progressive dampening curve and instead of sort of being the same stiffness the whole way through the stroke it will seem much plusher on the initial stroke and then ramp up towards the end
USD forks are USD forks as motorbikes started with conventional forks. Another advantage of USD forks, less unsprung weight. There was a lot of discussion around USD and stiction vs conventional forks... this was mainly with high energy use like motor cross and race bikes. A down side of downside forks... the staunches (we tend to pronounce it storn-shins in NZ) are open to damage from lower leg hits which is why the large plastic fork leg protectors on motor x bikes. Linkage forks have an advantage of no stiction but an increase in failure over weak points at the crown for the girder fork and forward weight countersteering of the 'Trailing link' fork design. I chatted with the pit crew of the most beautiful race bike ever built, the 'Britten V1000' that brought out the 1st successful trailing fork system and was told one of the main reasons John Britten made the forks.. was that 'they could". They weren't any great advantage and there is a good bit of footage of (i think Andrew Stroud) testing the bike, which was wheelie happy, when the forks failed. If you have never heard of the Britten V1000, check it out... It's not very often when a bike built on a farm at the bottom of the world, takes on Factory Ducati's at Daytona and not only pull up beside the 2 front runners.... but then proceed to pull wheelies beside them while they were full throttle... then leave them behind... wait.. where were we... oh yes MTB... there is also a fork I have seen that runs a rod through the crown and through a lever, runs the shock on the frame, removing all the weight from the forks. I've got a 2010 Giant Faith 0 with Rockshox Totem Solo Air forks (40mm staunches)... the stiction is quite bad. I tip the bike upside down before a session to wet the seals but long for the plush feel of my old Foes with Boxxer tripples.
What advice would you give to "bigger" riders say above 100k? would you change anything in riding style or change anything on the bike itself? #askGMBNtech
Why do so many Brits call the ground a floor?? This has to be the tenth time I've heard one say something like "when you're going downhill the tires just track well across the floor". What? Get outside a little, huh? Seriously though, in the one video The guy puts his friend's bike down in a bed of grass and the friend said "Don't lay my bike on the floor!". Just weird (to me). Anyway, I was just curious. Take care, everyone & Happy New Year!
Shock brands need to come up with a better way for armatures to tune their suspensions so they track as well as possible not just based on their weights etc, but also on the type of environment they ride on. I don’t know where to start on setting up my suspension for tree roots I mostly ride over.
I think I'm hearing things, at first I thought it was coming somewhere in my room, but it turned out it's from this video. It kept repeating sounded like a flute or recorder (wind instrument), with two notes that are the same and the third one a lower note. I'm not sure if anyone else hears it... Maybe I'm just going crazy... LOL
Great Video Doddy like always but this was especially action packed. Would love to see graphics of the insides of both with you explaining the airflow. I get that air is the main driver but when you talk about oil it confuses me a little ie is that just for aiding the slide? Is it air and oil that goes into the piggy back? In the coffee analogy is it the filter holes that are changing and not the liquid? I’ve a new Fox 36 but didn’t have low and high speed compression. How does that work?
As usual, the best treatment of this subject on youtube. One thing I hoped Doddy would do is, for pedagogical purposes, explicitly call it "rebound damping" and "compression damping" rather than the shorthand "rebound" and "compression" since, to a complete beginner, a statement like "to reduce the pogo stick effect, add more rebound" sounds like the opposite of what you want to do-since an actual pogo stick already has LOTS of rebound. For teaching purposes "to reduce the pogo stick effect add more rebound damping" makes more sense and may be less confusing to a novice, though I understand the shorthand phrasing is completely understood by experienced suspension users.
Yes he means rebound damping, not rebound. Plus or a snail logo is more damping.
It's the only part of the video I would change.
Agreed 👍
@R T Fully agreed, I was going to write very similar comment.
cheers, thought i was loosing it there
That’s a very good point well made
"Just like on suspension forks, rebound is always red and compression always is blue"
*laughs in Manitou
Cheers Doddy Brilliant video
USD forks were introduced to motocross in the early 90's, with the road bikes not far behind. Conventional forks are still used on many models other than sports bikes. So USD forks on motorbikes are still called USD and conventional are still conventional. Exactly the same as on mountainbikes.
Was just going to say this. Conventional was how it all started and should be "conventioonal"
Exactly! I have made this comment at least a handful of times now! It drives me absolutely mad that an obviously talented mechanic and tech journalist keeps on spreading misinformation.
Also the longer the travel of the fork the more it needs to hang below the axle in a conventional fork. Just have a look at the last of the conventional MX forks. They were having ground clearance issues.
MTB doesn't have anywhere near as much travel so it can all be packaged above the axle.
Great instructional video! NJ USA newbie here. This really helped me understand the functionality of the front and rear suspension. This also helps me decide if I should upgrade my suspension or make some minor changes/adjustments to them. Thanks for posting! & Keep Riding.
I have no idea what this man said after I watched it three times
I love this guy what a great lecturer. I literally listened things that I already know, he explains things like a story.
this was crazy helpful! Doddy is a natural communicator and teacher.
I agree with the below comments-you are a great teacher and the amount of detail is perfect. I am new to this sport and want to learn as much as possible. Thank you
Brilliant explanations! Thanks! So confusing with so many options on the forks and shocks.
The classic Vespa still uses that trailing style front suspension :).
Any chance of an "all you need to know about retro suspension" such as Mag 21s, Marzocchi Bombers etc from the 90s?
Yeah man I had some circa 2000 Z3 Flylight 100’s on my jump bike as I couldn’t stretch to a Z1 drop off.
I remember the launch of the Boxxer and the SID, what an exciting time it was...
About atmospherically balancing:
I had a bike shipped from one country to another, I pressed the button and it did give me a long hiss.
Stay off the glass BBQ mate...lol
Hmmm yhea. I'd be amazed if they shipped Forks by air mate so... 🤔 If flying your bike make sure you take most of the air out of your suspension.. Maybe you could stash whatever you might need in there instead... 🤔 😉
I would like to know how my shock has 130mm of travel but the actual shaft looks less then 100mm
If your talking about rear suspension it’s based on the travel that the axle moves in and with the added leverage and depending on design the axle will move 130mm rather than the actual shock shaft being this size.
Great vid Doddy
The focus and pic quality is great and Doddy, as always, is simply the best.
Bought a Scott aspect 740 XL with suntour XCM front fork and I am happy with it so far. Just bought for $150 :) :)
I will save up for a gt fury
Great video Doddy. For a novice rider like myself. Found it really infomative and easy to understand
And retain. Cheers!!!
Great to hear!
At one time I owned a Lefty fork. This was on my Cannondale Jekyll. It got a lot of looks. Besides that it was also great for riding in wet conditions because you wouldn’t get it caked up like on a standard fork.
Great and informative video 🙏🏼
A couple of things here. Moto-forks started out just like our conventional forks of today. The "upside down/inverted" fork came much later than the conventional fork. Doddy, you're probably too young to have known that. :) And for Gods sake people. Your mountain bike has a FORK on the front (singular), it's not called FORKs (plural), there is just one fork on your bike. Sorry, just a pet-peeve of mine.
Doddy da man
New drinking game, take a shot every time Doddy says "ok" in this video xD
Another interesting exploration of everything
This video is so amazing. Thank you so much Doddy. ❤️
First suspension fork was a triple clamp sr suntour which came on my Saracen Raw DH circa 1998, they were absolutely poo.
I upgraded them to a set of RST 461DH with a massive 100mm travel, the off white with red lettering looked mint on the black and red bike.
I then upgraded the rear shock from a no brand piece of crap to a rock shock deluxe I got off a friends brothers old voodoo frame.
Thing was a tank but a plusher tank after those tweaks.
That was the glory days of the sport, the World Cup XC and Dual came to Newnham Park in Plymouth, as a 12 year old lad going to a place within riding distance of my house and watching Steve Peat , Brain Lopes, Wade Boots etc race made a serious impression.
The money in the sport back then was crazy!
The top MotoGp Forks are hardly "over built" for strength. They're as light as they can possibly be, the expense isn't important in any way which is what actually gets the hit, the price of making them. Yes they're to big and heavy for a MtB, yes they can be heavier as the engine takes the strain not you but over built? Nope. Great video though as usual.
👍 # öhlins
Suspensions are my favourite subject
Part 1 & 2 have lots of information. Thanks.
Beautiful review of suspension forks and shocks. Cannot wait for Part 2. Many thanks.
Coming soon!
I just my set my settings to midway and just go out and enjoy my riding instead of messing my head up with a myriad of different tuning ways. Mountain biking doesn't need to be complicated.
Absolutely superb presentation once again, Doddy.
Great work Doddy and the GMBN team! This video is very informative! 😀 Hopefully in the next video Doddy would touch on the DVO suspensions since that will be the one that I am having for my bike. Would really appreciate that! Ride safe always guys and God bless! 😀
Just got my first full sus and this video is great!!
Excellent information! Thank you!
Nice one Doddy!
Magnífica explicación. Doddy must be the nicest guy in the world. Thanks for all the knowledge you share. Greetings from Peru.
Take a shot everytime Doddy says "okay?" lmao
Okay.
#askGMBNtech
I have had a hard time finding good discussion on when, for whom, and why the mid range forks are good enough. Or perhaps more important what terrains are mid range forks always going to be adequate, when/what will be speeds that just reach the limits of those forks.
Another point in that discussion I'd like to see is for bigger riders, bigger weights.
Currently, I know low end forks are adequate for many folk because they really don't ride at all.
Mid range forks tend to get called trash by most riders' comments and reviews with very little reasoning in the dismissal.
I'm as confused as you are in this regard. It'd be nice to hear Doddy's thoughts on it.
I have been riding a 10 year old, second-hand Rockshox coil fork for years. I have no complaints. I recently built a bike with a Suntour Durolux 36 and have been really enjoying it. Both of these forks are considered mid-tier, but I've had a blast riding them. Is this because I don't know how nice the mega-expensive ones are? Is it because I don't ride hard or fast enough to need the snazziest fork? I am ~200 lbs, maybe a touch more with all of my riding gear, and these forks have held up well under me.
Nice vid doddy just got a scott genious and getting to know my suspension
Great tech talk!
Perfectly explained! Thanks Doddy!
Great Tutorial!!! Thanks a lot!
Excellent video!
why does everyone say fast and slow rebound and compression but the adjustment is + or - ??? Do I put more (plus) to slow or speed up the respond or compression ????
Great stuff as usual, thanks!
Holycrap! Well done!
Excellent information as usual, Doddy. Thanks!
Really good video Doddy. Thought I had a good basic knowledge on suspension but definitely learnt a few things here 🤘👏
Happy to help!
Well explained and put together, thanks mate
Highly interesting! I love GMBN Tech! :D
Great video again. Educational as always, I've learned a lot. Very helpful, thanks Dodd!
The other advantage of running USD forks is less unsprung weight,, which is why high performance road and dirt motorbikes tend to run them. The big negative of USDs, however, is having the fork inners far more exposed to damage from rocks, etc.
Can you please do a complete coil shock service video - one with a piggyback) 🤘🏻
Awesome video! Thanks Doddy 👌🏼
Very well done! Perfectly explained.
Very interesting! Thanks, Doddy!
Seeing all the complexities of shock absorbers, I think I'll keep my Montague folding hardtail 26" mountain bike.
great video guys
Very interesting, thanks Doddy!
Great explanation Doddy, Thank You :-)
Good job Doddy!
Liked the old Amp/concept linkage forks so much that I have 5 of them lol.
Great video! I learned a lot! Thumbs up!
Greetings Doddy
Could you please cover the new tech from Avalanche Suspension.
Very informative. Thank you!
Brilliant as usual
Brilliant, really needed this!!
Nice video , I really like how you explain
Tidy content, crispy audio and tasty DoF!
Would like to know a bit more on spacers in forks. Can't wrap my head around advantages for my riding style. I usually like rough terrain with drops and rocks. Black diamond trails.
Thanks Doddy for the tech info.
Are you talking like volume spacers? Ok say for example your 90kg and to get the correct sag for yourself you need to use 25% for sag. To get this sag number for yourself you might need to run say 120 psi which is max psi for fox forks adding volume spacers should reduce the air pressure needed to do the same effect. So after you put in say 3 volume spacers you might be able to knock the psi back to a 100psi by doing that you will also create a much more progressive dampening curve and instead of sort of being the same stiffness the whole way through the stroke it will seem much plusher on the initial stroke and then ramp up towards the end
@@benfairhall5331 Thanks!! That actually makes sense!
Haven't done anything yet.
Thanks
Awesome video Doddy. You da bomb.
USD forks are USD forks as motorbikes started with conventional forks.
Another advantage of USD forks, less unsprung weight. There was a lot of discussion around USD and stiction vs conventional forks... this was mainly with high energy use like motor cross and race bikes. A down side of downside forks... the staunches (we tend to pronounce it storn-shins in NZ) are open to damage from lower leg hits which is why the large plastic fork leg protectors on motor x bikes.
Linkage forks have an advantage of no stiction but an increase in failure over weak points at the crown for the girder fork and forward weight countersteering of the 'Trailing link' fork design.
I chatted with the pit crew of the most beautiful race bike ever built, the 'Britten V1000' that brought out the 1st successful trailing fork system and was told one of the main reasons John Britten made the forks.. was that 'they could". They weren't any great advantage and there is a good bit of footage of (i think Andrew Stroud) testing the bike, which was wheelie happy, when the forks failed.
If you have never heard of the Britten V1000, check it out...
It's not very often when a bike built on a farm at the bottom of the world, takes on Factory Ducati's at Daytona and not only pull up beside the 2 front runners.... but then proceed to pull wheelies beside them while they were full throttle... then leave them behind...
wait.. where were we... oh yes MTB...
there is also a fork I have seen that runs a rod through the crown and through a lever, runs the shock on the frame, removing all the weight from the forks.
I've got a 2010 Giant Faith 0 with Rockshox Totem Solo Air forks (40mm staunches)... the stiction is quite bad. I tip the bike upside down before a session to wet the seals but long for the plush feel of my old Foes with Boxxer tripples.
Great video Doddy. How about Wren fork from Wrensports. Inverted fork from 100mm to 150 mm.
Would be nice to see a review from u about them.
Great and informative video. I wish I could understand Compression and damping more. I'm still lost 😔
Check out vorsprung suspension.
Also check out Race Tech suspension Bible.
@@archetypex65 Super, thanks!
Lovely video today, congrats!!
Sag is the amount of initial preload on the spring, whether it is air or coil.
Thanks Doddy!
Great vid. I learned some good stuff.
Wonderful vid Doddy
Lefty for the win
Probably the only fork worth the high price
Very good video.....!
“they all have compression and rebound”
me: *cries in fox DHX 3.0*
ye i have the same with my lyrik fork, i can't fully lock it out, i only have like soft and a 3/4 but of a pain tbh
Or any department store bike xD
@@thatguynathan5816 yeah but the fox 3.0 still shreds today lmao, fort william ain’t got shit on the specialized big hit
Legend.
What a brilliant video
Amazing video, cheers!
Really helpful thanks
I have bos deville 170. I can’t seem to find many official documents on how to carry out a lower leg service specifically on oil weights or volumes.
Contact BOS or their service center
What advice would you give to "bigger" riders say above 100k? would you change anything in riding style or change anything on the bike itself? #askGMBNtech
Linkage forks bmw has mastered them i think in the gs's
Why do so many Brits call the ground a floor?? This has to be the tenth time I've heard one say something like "when you're going downhill the tires just track well across the floor". What? Get outside a little, huh? Seriously though, in the one video The guy puts his friend's bike down in a bed of grass and the friend said "Don't lay my bike on the floor!". Just weird (to me). Anyway, I was just curious. Take care, everyone & Happy New Year!
Did anyone else notice how many times Doddy was saying ok?
Shock brands need to come up with a better way for armatures to tune their suspensions so they track as well as possible not just based on their weights etc, but also on the type of environment they ride on. I don’t know where to start on setting up my suspension for tree roots I mostly ride over.
#askgmbn. Why don’t bike manufacturers give us BB night and bike geometry based on the bike sitting at the sag points.
I think I'm hearing things, at first I thought it was coming somewhere in my room, but it turned out it's from this video. It kept repeating sounded like a flute or recorder (wind instrument), with two notes that are the same and the third one a lower note. I'm not sure if anyone else hears it... Maybe I'm just going crazy... LOL
Great Video Doddy like always but this was especially action packed. Would love to see graphics of the insides of both with you explaining the airflow. I get that air is the main driver but when you talk about oil it confuses me a little ie is that just for aiding the slide? Is it air and oil that goes into the piggy back? In the coffee analogy is it the filter holes that are changing and not the liquid? I’ve a new Fox 36 but didn’t have low and high speed compression. How does that work?
You're on top form here Doddy, brilliant analogies
Mine uses coil shocks
I use to have a manitou splice with red as lockout and blue as rebound