Stop Complaining About Waterfowl Dance
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2023
- It is literally one of the only fun things she has going for her, you people are dumb. And before you try and say she got patched, show me the damn proof. I am so sick of people winging that Radahn or Malenia got patched and when I ask them what they changed they literally just ghost me.
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It's so stupid that EVERYONE knows a about the speedrun godlike circle around Malenia dodge, but this one is obscure to most.
Something went so wrong with informations and echo chambers in this game
both methods are unintuitive, but jumping mechanics were a whole new bag of nonsense, while the playerbase already knew how rolling worked.
dunno what's so surprising about the community not figuring this one out before the game dropped out of mainstream interest.
@@the_Red_Starit’s surprising because jumping is a core mechanic of the game, there is a laundry list of attacks that are dodged with jumps so it’s odd this was never widely noticed
@@beargrill42I still find new ways to jump over attacks in videos, even after all this time.
And don’t forget about crouching. That works too, even though it’s mostly useful in no rolls
@@beargrill42 Probably because there are many attacks that look like you can jump over them but you can't or the timing is so much more precise than a roll most people stopped trying. Then you have this, an eleventy million hit flurry of sword slashes that crosses the entire arena. I would be shocked if more than 1% of players attempted to jump Waterfowl in this way. There is zero reason to try this besides the tiny percentage of players that like to discover all the quirks of bosses. Playing passive to avoid big scary death combo and just bait and running is so much easier and safer
@@jeff3221 You arent using the Jump to jump over the attack, so much as you are using the Sprint Jump to outspace it.
People don't have a problem with dodging waterfowl dance.
The problem is intuitiveness. There are so many ways to dodge the attack, yet none of them feel intended. Sekiro did this way better, by putting a marker each time an attack is only dodgable by jumping, etc. In elden ring, you have to google the attack to find out how to appropriately dodge it. That isn't intuitive game design
I don't think there actually is an intended way. Do people really think the boomers at from are sitting there analyzing this attack frame by frame, "ah yes, you can unlock the camera and spin around like this" like the game doesn't even introduce that as a real mechanic. If you held them at gunpoint and forced them to answer I guarantee all they could say is use a shield or "lol bloodhound step." There's no design here.
Ah yes people who found out first how to dodge this attack definitely fucking googled it actual giga brain.
There's no such thing as intuitive dodges because it purely relies on , you're fucking telling me dodging through a hammer aoe is intuitive? or how about dodging towards a thrust attack does that sound intuitive to you?
@meatbicycle6456 Just because something is unintuitive doesn't mean it's impossible to figure out. You can very well find the right way to do it by chance. Or you can analyze every frame and find it like that. That doesn't change the fact that it's unintuitive though.
@@icecp6532 Wtfuck does this even mean are u agreeing with me or what? lol
I think it’s fair to complain still, because jumping in this situation is not intuitive whatsoever.
Neither is rolling through a nuclear bomb
@@loopine meaning?
@@loaf1712 it means that nothing about these games is intuitive until you try. I've talked to people who've beaten ds1 and 2 without ever knowing the dodge had s because they played it like monster hunter.
@@loopine What's up, moron, "press roll to dodge an attack" is literally an in-game tutorial message.
RETARD ALERT, RETARD ALERT
So, that only works when done with a heavy weapon? If that's the case, it only reinforces the "game forces you to play x or y way" point.
No its just easier to execute the higher your weapon is held. Typically lighter weapons are held lower but you will have way less recovery so you can get a headstart running away much faster. Also makes the circle strat 100x easier
@@loopine I finished the game for the first time yesterday, and I felt the same way Joseph ANderson did. Been playing Dark Souls for over a decade, and I always play as a fast hitter dex. I tried to play this ay in ER, but everywhere I went I just ate shit, and things got very frustrating. So I respec'd and got moonveil + comet azur, and melted my way into the ending. Watched JA's video, and watcher yours, and the 2h30min video you posted in your other channel. Gotta say that you convinced me to give the game another try with a different mindset this time.
@@GustavoSousas I'm way bigger on combat and gameplay than I am on exploration so I've always said that the worst playthrough of any souls game is the first one
@@loopine me as well! I think I love DS3 and 2 bc their linearity make them more combat centered, and hell, My first playthrough of DS2 (the first from game I ever played) was a nightmare. the same goes for DS3. I hope I can enjoy ER more now, knowing some of the tricks and patterns.
@@loopine Bro I have to say that now the game is REALLY fun. I'm rocking a dual dagger bleed build where I just trade blows with bosses and the last man standing wins (I die a lot but who cares just try again). I killed Mogh at level 60 even before going for Renalla. Changing my mindset about the game was vital for enjoyng it at its fullest. And that was because of your video, thanks for the 90 minute lecture.
To me it doesn't really matter that you can dodge waterfowl consistently. She could have been the next Swordsaint Isshin but Waterfowl breaks up the lovely tempo.
I'm the opposite I guess, I think her tempo is kinda bad (especially phase 1) but I get a kick out of dodging her super moves. In my rl1+0 vid of her I outline all my problems with her in the description
Great strat, but it doesn't change just how unintuitive waterfowl is.
There being this many videos on how to "properly" dodge waterfowl speaks for itself in volumes.
I would more look at all these dodge videos and say look at all the ways you can dodge/avoid this attack
When an alcoholic wagie knows how to dodge waterfowl better than full time Elden Ring content creators.
god damn 💀
This made the difference in my RL1 run. I was dreading having to learn Waterfowl Dance, but this method is consistent, easy to learn, and when you do it the game gives you comprehensible feedback on why you messed up. Now I can completely dodge the attack multiple times in some attempts and I am so happy that I get to finally enjoy this boss.
This game desperately needs a jump indicator like in Sekiro, there's absolutely no way to know which attacks you can jump over and which you cant. Like you cant jump over Godfrey's earthquake but you can jump over this?
given how obscure jumping mechanics are, i'm not very surprised that most players never tried this. and now that the honeymoon period is over, most players never will.
also, I'm not sure if malenia herself ever got patched, but like half the weapons and attacks in this game were made faster or given earlier recoveries since release. twice for colossal swords.
She got patched to be harder since they removed the tell on the slow vs fast triple slash followup
It's not like jumping attacks were spelled out to you in the tutorial. Not to mention, sprint jumping is used a bunch in platforming sections and was also in past games to an extent. While a bit obscure, I wouldn't really say that it's super unintuitive to use it to dodge some attacks, especially when you can also dodge attacks in the game during the recovery frames of a jumping r2. Taking advantage of move hitboxes to dodge in unconventional ways was always a thing. It's why circle strafing was so damn op against spear enemies.
@@thesnatcher3616 Yeah, jumping _attacks_ were spelled out, not jumping as an evasion tool, least of all jumping in this way.
This waterfowl dodge works because of a bunch of different factors in combination, none of which are told to the player:
- A sprint jump gives you a burst of distance bigger than only sprinting.
- Your leg hitboxes are invulnerable while you jump sprint.
- Your character leans forward while you sprintjump, keeping your vulnerable top half further away from waterfowl's sphere of damage.
- You can queue your sprint by keeping the roll button held down while you fight, which saves you the half-second it takes to start sprinting normally.
It looks simple after you see someone else do it, but there's a reason most people were just running BHS when the game came out.
@@the_Red_Star Which some people looked up the location for btw. I didn't even find the damn thing on my playthrough. And again, people try to sprint away from waterfowl anyway, and the distance given by jumping is established in some platforming sections that can show up from time to time in Leyendell/and other dungeons throughout the game. It's not the most intuitive thing in the world but I wouldn't call it SUPER obscure. I can definitely see someone applying it naturally.
Great video @LupineOS & with proof in front of the viewers’ eyes, I like it! Man we need more people like you to educate some of these old outdated Souls people that can’t acclimate to anything new & interesting, they’re honestly too picky & fickly, they wouldn’t want anything innovative at all even if it makes their games better lol.
Beautiful.
nOW hOW lOnG dID iT tAkES u 2 LrN thAt!???!?
Born with it. It's just an instinct if you're a real grindset millionaire like me
Yeah, dodging Malenia's Waterfowl is cool and all but I'm just here to vibe to Delfino Plaza dude
This made the boss click for me and now I love the fight. Thanks for this
My jaw is on my desk right now. Just... jumping? JUST JUMPING? This would have saved me HOURS of frustration had I known about it earlier.
Beautiful guide, you just made this fight bearable
I couldnt focus on this video the first time though I was too distracted by that sexy stache. Most attractive ER player I've ever seen which admittedly might not be a very high bar
I didn't know jumps had i-frames untill a week ago
I used to think Melania punished strength builds with slow weapons, but I was wrong. Now I can’t go back to using “little bitch weapons” that don’t stagger her. You just have to be cautious about not attacking her when she has hyperarmor frames, but even still it’s relatively easy to dodge by running away and jumping.
After playing this game to NG+7 and beyond where everything does ridiculous levels of damage I realized Melania on NG is really not that hard. Even if you completely Fk up and tank half of the combo there’s a good chance you can survive it because the punishment is not that high for an adequately leveled character.
If you learn how to circle her or simply run away and jump and dodge the other two parts of the combo you can survive most of the time.
FWIW even daggers can stagger her just like normal GS's with the R2.
I never looked up any methods. I just tested different things and noticed jumping messes with her approaching speed for some reason, so it's what I stuck with. It has a weirdly precise timing window if you want to avoid being chipped, but it is consistent on even ground. Slopes can still mess it up.
I think its proximity based. Like "ok youre in collision range, stop advaning" ive seen A LOT of the sekiro bosses do the same thing (especially inner owl)
Ayo shoutouts to Slave Sax Gael!
Best souls UA-camr in the game
I can dodge it just fine, what I have a problem with is her doing it literally back-to-back. I just had an attempt on my rl1 where she did it 5 times in a row. That isn't fun it is just obnoxious.
2:58 immaculate "it was revealed to me in a dream" vibes
Oh dang. Maybe I actually need to fight her again and learn waterfowl. Last time I just panic-rolled it and somehow lived each time.
If it works, it works
honestly, these days, I just like to use zamor's storm or deathpoker's WA to straight up just knock her out of it lol
She gets more and more resistant to frost each time. Its not reliable
It’s honestly insane how much of a collective tantrum the souls community got into over this move. Not only is it nowhere near the most dangerous move in a Souls game, it’s not even close to the most dangerous move Malenia has.
I like this fight a lot, but if I were to pick what’s actually unbalanced it’s her ability to do a double slash in phase 2 when you’re behind her and can’t see it coming through her wings. That shit is harder to react to than noble presence and yet people complain about this instead. I can only assume they’re literally just salty about how much damage it does.
Yeah, her winds makes some attacks confusing to react, it's more about learning her old attacks and remembering them. Scarlet Aeonian is much more passive to react than Waterfowl, though.
You shouldnot have to lookup a guide to dodge a oneshot attack.
@@AbassAli092There are various approaches. Just like how majority of the players didn't realize that Vigor was important and what Soft and Hard caps are.
@@midgard9057 It's like saying if they made true isshin's hurricane slash hit the entire map and oneshot you, but oh, someone figured out you can do a frame perfect jump off the edge of the cliff while the hitbox is out and walljump back up... or use bloodhound step. Like no one cares dude, it's still stupid.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS It's the fact that you have a multitude of options to get out of a specific situation. There is always an answer for something and sometimes those answers are extremely easy to figure out or there are harder ones to find out but are simple answers to your problem.
That's how the game works.
The amount of times I've tried to tell people that this exists is ridiculous.
Thank you.
This is pretty insane. For all the Malenia strats I've learned from people online, I have not seen this one, cannot wait to try it
Just a reminder to check the animation of what weapon you are holding. The arms don't get i-frames when you jump so the lower they hang, the harder this method is. If it's a fast weapon then at least you can get farther away at the start and jump later in the animation.
@@loopineThanks for this point of clarification. Good thing I used a Zwei for my RL1, maybe that helped me there and I didn’t know it. I never stopped to think that your arms would have hitboxes, but it makes total sense
Can you jump it by two-handing any weapon, or only weapons that make you raise your arms as high as colossal swords, do like greatswords?
I used the magma wyrm scalesword against her, and yeah, it does work.
This boss is honestly pretty fair.
She hits like 2 trucks, but, just don't get hit 😊
I mean they put dragoncrest greatshield talisman right in front of her for a reason too, basically fixes her high dmg by itself
I honestly really like this fight and it does bother me how pissy people get about waterfowl dance. The double slash is unironically far worse, though it is still just barely reactable. Also the clone attack is technically easier to dodge but i always forget exactly which way and how many times to roll, so it ends up killing me far more than waterfowl does lmao
Takes longer to learn it too since its phase 2 only. I think a lot of people get by just panic rolling it somehwoe though from what my comments say
The double slash that she does to disengage? That shit annoys the hell out of me and sometimes the second slash clips me at the end of my roll
My brother waterfowl dance is some bullshit, people are rightfully "pissy" about it. It's basically an insta-kill that I used to think can only be dodged from a distance, so this single move forced me to play like a pussy and run away after every time I hit her
The fact that it can be dodged non-sensically doesn't change that it's bullshit and turned the fight into a slog
How are you recovering so fast?
Like your recovery seems a lot faster than mine
You can cancel the end of most animations with another action. A basic example would be cancelling a roll animation by buffering a parry. This allows for block cancelling where you cancel a variety of animations by tapping block to cancel that animation with the block animation. This has been around since DeS and is especially good for going straight from an attack into a sprint pr turning around 180 degrees without activating the "forgot my kids at walmart" animation. It's even more applicable in elden ring as you can go straight into a sprinting jump with this method by cancelling the startup animation as you start to sprint.
Dodging this feels easier than perfectly deflecting floating passage combo from Genichiro in Sekiro. It's balanced and amazing, people should focus more on hating a re-used bosses and fucking "ohh we need another boss fight, let's just take some tough dudes and make a "Godskin Duo" or a "Crucible Knight Duo". " etc. cause this is what actually making me feel that game is unfair
Crucible Knight Duo is a great boss though; go after Godefroy if you want to hate on some reuse.
Godskin Duo is the original fight, you just fight them seperately first. They are 100% designed as a gank, and are lots of fun when you learn them. Also deflecting floating passage/one mind is pretty much RNG unless you are a robot. Spamming deflect makes the deflect window smaller each time, to the point where the final hit of both of those combos is a 1 or 2 frame window - borderline impossible for a human to do consistently.
Duck and cover
Exactly when are you starting to jump with the colossal weapons?
Let her travel a bit, it's like after one spin. The reason distance from her doesn't matter as much is when she starts WD she zooms right up to you, stopping just short, and then slowly travels forwards while the hitboxes are active. If you jump too early she'll just zoom up to you mid jump and then catch you landing. You need to wait until she has positioned herslef before getting into the air.
@@loopinedoes it still work with a light roll?
@@Docandballtorture7756 I would imagine so given that you can actually roll straight thru the first flurry towards her with light roll. The jump seems like you get more distance but idk
@@loopine I'll try it out
Apparently this is really inconsistent on the slopes but i agree if you can't do the ,,speedrun strats" just maybe try something other than the roll button.
It can be but mostly I've had good luck. I find the slope mostly affects her third flurry and how fast she U-turns back towards you.
It is also recommended to duck her last swoop by if you end up getting caught on the top of your head.
That's a sick idea
Hell yes
The hole Souls community forgot Ebrietas' bullsh*t laser attack, Manus' dark magic barrage, Watchdog's hitboxes among many other BS attacks just to fixate on Waterfowl. It isn't that great of an attack, but very manageable and nowhere near the worst attack compare to previous games. Selective amnesia at its best.
The stuff you just listed is so trivial I hardly remember what they are. Maybe that's the reason? Maybe randomly shoving oneshot damage down your throat is kind of a problem?
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS I think, to a different extend, we agree on what I wrote. We talk about Waterfowl (which I said isn't great) but we ignore even more glaring problems. Unless you're really well position, Manus's barrage can oneshot you or stun you near death, and Ebrieta's laser can also potentially oneshot you, with very little in the way circumvent or avoid it. It also doesn't help that the runbacks to those bosses are tedious. Like all opinions, it may be trivial to some, but are valid complaints against, arguably, worse bosses than Malenia.
Ebrieta's charge attack is dog shit. Hard to read with a bullshit hitbox on her ass
@@BBQcheese that attack sucks so much
@@BBQcheese Funnily enough, that charge also makes me enjoy the fight even less. Like you said, it feels like a prototype to the better (yet flawed) fight that is Midir, but being a Giant blob isn't that visually interesting and her attacks, like most of Bloodborne's, feel kinda samey. I still prefer Ebrietas over anything related to Nicolash or One Reborn.
I'm using raptor talons so this doesn't help me whatsoever! Thanks!
hope they make more bosses like her in the dlc
I think Malenia is as much a Mental Test as she is a Test of Skill. Both Waterfowl and the Lifesteal are designed to scare you into staying away, when engaging her at Close-Range is both more fun and effective. She tests if you can overcome your Fear.
Yeah dunno about that. I think the most effective thing is doing exploity shiz like getting her to 75% and then throwing daggers at the robot so she automatically whiffs her beep boop oneshot attack for the kids out there. Epic.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS Not really. Malenia will dodge most daggers, making the fight last forever, increasing the chances for her to hit you with the rest of her Moveset.
Thats pretty much all of Soulsborne TBH.
@@shinyhydreigon7257 Yeah, that's probably true. I guess it's just way more extreme with Malenia.
Are Malenia whiners STILL complaining about this move!?!! It's been over a year how have they not learned how to do it yet 💀
They just spread misinfo that they read from other random comments for years instead of actually trying shit themselves, that's why. "Poise is disabled in ds3" - actual people in 2023
@@loopineJoseph Anderson stans be like
because dodging it very often makes no sense
@@Dr.AvenVon he said on a video explaining one of many ways to dodge it
@@Dr.AvenVon malenia whiner spotted
No I don't think I will
Couldn't you just roll at that distance? Stop simping bro before they add something so stupid not even you can defend it next time. That's really the whole point, stopping them from drinking their own kool aid which they clearly did here because all the kids out there think souls == le hardest game ever therefore we better not disappoint them.
I think you're part of the Kool aid kids you're talking about because you're using that stupid fucking lingo
@@BBQcheese That's because this man is unfortunately braindead 😔
The only man with brain on this channel. Mw you've lterally gaslit the company into making bullshit games instead of masterpieces.
@@BBQcheeseImpossible, unfortunately
Hi, I don't care about the content of the video. Just leaving a dislike because of the obnoxious video title. Good job with that 👍
Thanks for the view loser
fucking hell, i might disagree about waterfowls quality and neededness in the fight but he gave you a free tip.
the title was meant to grab your attention just watch the video dude... dont leave a dislike on someones video because of title, do it because of the content and i see no issue with the content here
i cant believe i have to defend someone who i disagree with (other videos i mean) but this is so childlish i honestly am on loopines side here
a question i have is, what if you're stuck in an attack animation? i've tried it out with a malenia just waterfowl mod and it kills me instantly
The way I can do a fully charged UGS R2 and still get away is because I block cancel the recovery animation so I can start sprinting sooner. All you have to do is tap L1. If you are still in the swing of the animation then you may be attacking too late.
@@loopine yeah, and i assume block cancelling with a less heavy weapon would be even faster no?
this move is so silly sometimes bro, miyazakis crack cocaine session type shit
well i mean i already beat malenia solo with great WFD rng so theres no need to actually put this into practice anytime soon for me, but i can always see what works with a only waterfowl mod
another thing i have is that sometimes, you hold down sprint and it has alot of delay, even more than the normal input delay, this usually happens when i was recovering stamina (keyboard and mouse btw)
@@3psilon674 probably good old input dropping, the real number 1 issue that plagues this game imo
@@loopine yeah, its hilarious walking away slowly while malenia is chasing your ass and you instantly die
jesus christ this was SUPER helpful
thank you alot for this, i will finally no longer sulk in the corner while she's at 70% health cuz of waterfowl