Thanks for this. I realize it is not the sexiest of all videos, but knowing that Shelly cares enough about its customers and trust in its original engineering to get the UL mark means a lot to me. If I am going to put something in my electrical system and have it hidden behind the walls, I want to know that UL has given their stamp of approval. I appreciate all of the research you did to put this video together.
So here in the part of Canada where I live. It's not that the insurance policy specifically prohibits non CSA/UL/ETL devices. It's that it requires your wiring to be code compliant. The electrical code is what requires certified devices. So if you use non-certified devices then you are code non-compliant which means you are in violation of your insurance policy.
Interesting, thanks. I believe the major driver of UL certification is when you, as a device manufacturer, want to sell your device in retail outlets; they are the ones who often demand UL certification before they'll stock and sell your product, because it minimises their legal liability to the consumer that buys your product. This is in fact UL's original reason for existing: "Underwriters Laboratory" = "Underwriters", as in insurance underwriters, and "Laboratory", as in testing products to meet certain standards that provide that legal coverage to retailers, and re-direct any legal recourse by a consumer directly to the manufacturer rather than the retailer.
My conclusion is that any non-UL approved Shelly is not legal to install in the walls of most homes in the US but that the UL approved Shelly is legal to have an electrician install in most homes in the US. Self install gets more grey but may also be legal with a building permit. National Electric Code 2017 (NEC) section 110.2 Approval says "The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved." This is generally interpreted by building departments as being "listed" by one of the recognized testing labs such as UL. Installing anything in the walls that isn't listed is usually interpreted as not permitted by code and insurance policies may include the option to deny claims for fires caused by electrical work that is not up to code. I'm not an electrician, inspector, nor adjuster, but you can easily Google: nec handbook 2017 edition pdf and read the nested and convoluted content yourself starting with 110.2, 110.3, and the definitions of Listed, Approved, Identified, and Labeled in chapter 1.
Technically having a UL certified device doesnt make a safer device. BUT you can bet that any company willing to go for the certification on a product put the time in to engineer a product to some degree of safety. Good on shelly for going the extra mile.
Note the difference between CE ("Conformité Européenne" (French for "European Conformity")) and CE (Chinese Export). The spacing between the letters matters!
Though the font looks the same the spacing between the letters is critical to tell the difference. CE is tangent circles looking like the number eight. China Export is two circles that intersect like a Venn diagram.
There is no china export mark, thats a myth. The misprint of the CE logo happened by different manufecturer completely unrelated of the fact of complying to it or not
Any links to the actual UL listing document? The Amazon product page doesn't say much about amps/voltage ratings. Video mentions "UL tested to 20A at 104deg F". If also rated at 240V, that makes this a great solution for my project to wi-fi enable shut-offs (and turn-ons) for the baseboard and in-floor heating throughout my house. It appears it may be small enough to put in the wiring compartment of baseboard heaters themselves, making this item cheaper than a manual or wall-mount thermostat for these units, up to 20 linear feet of bb heater! This could enable MASSIVE reductions in energy use by baseboard heating loads, and substantial quality-of-life improvements to people suffering from cheapo resistive electric heating systems with only on-unit thermostat controllers.
While I agree that it's very unlikely that an insurance policy would list UL or CSA as a requirement. If a Sonoff shorted out and burned my house down, and the fire inspector found it to be the cause, I'd bet the insurance company would love to try to deny the claim. Not a chance I want to take, so really glad to hear Shelly got UL! I had an electrical inspector fail my rough inspection because a 24v transformer for cabinet lighting only had RU markings not CSA or UL. The final inspector approved it, because it's the same unit everyone uses.
NEC requires a certification agency for new construction inspections, but you don't need to pull a permit to replace a light switch. If your house burned down due diffinatively to a sonoff or similar device your insurance should pay the claim and then try to recover damages from the company involved.
Yup been there. Did a huge plc based home automation system 100+ channels of relays. Over 200 channels of dmx lighting ( over 3kw of 24v led strip hundreds of feet!) ac, door entry the works all custom and had it all field approved for the building inspecter by intertek. Was a fun one!
new here. exactly the video I wanted to see. one question. do you have any info regarding WIFI elctromagnetic radiation emmited from shelly.(2.5)? they have 2 modes: access point and client. in access point I verified with them that the radiation is a lot higher. but I dont have any indication of how much is a lot or anny numbers. specifically I intend to put it as a client (not AP) and was wondering if I should be worried about wifi radiation. is there a certification for this that states something? any info regarding this you can share? thanks!
If you go to the UL site it actually also says the Shelly1 was certified along with the 2.5. Do you have any info on when the Shelly1 UL version will hit markets?
the new sheely 2.5 has pins exposed ! so easy to put tasmota. the template repo does have the config.....$11/sw is camparable to sonoff mini $8/sw w/o programmable pins
CE is very rigid method in this type of product as very tests of electrical security, covers and electromagnetic tests should be done. Like I said, documents that prove this tests and CE conformity is different than a CE logo in a plastic case. Same as UL, in my opinion
Not at all. A company must ship their device you the UL laboratory and it is tested on standardized equipment by UL engineers. For CE all testing is done by the specific manufacturer in their own facilities on whatever equipment they have and they just fill out paperwork to say it meets CE standards, there is nothing stopping a company from submitting fraudulent test results.
I believe that you may have misunderstood the CE process - it is true that low risk items may be self certified but the majority of items that fall into any significant risk category must be submitted to a Notified Body for testing and approval. Of course the markings can be and are forged just as legally approved products can be re-engneered subsequently in a non compliant manner. The main weakness id in enforcement as this depends on the actions of a member country in the European Union and how seriously they view the issue.
Well, that is not true. In this case, almost all Smart Products need a Notified Body for testing and approval. That is why I said for look to documents. Is very different that I say my product complies the CE, and have a Notified Body that certificates my product (is required for general smart home products, eletrical ones, cameras, sensores...). This type of product only has CE certification if a notified body test and approve, otherwise CE marks are not legal and punishable by European law
This is a bonus video to announce the Shelly 2.5 UL Listing, UniFi Part 3 is still scheduled for July 3rd on my normal release schedule.
Thanks for this. I realize it is not the sexiest of all videos, but knowing that Shelly cares enough about its customers and trust in its original engineering to get the UL mark means a lot to me. If I am going to put something in my electrical system and have it hidden behind the walls, I want to know that UL has given their stamp of approval. I appreciate all of the research you did to put this video together.
So here in the part of Canada where I live. It's not that the insurance policy specifically prohibits non CSA/UL/ETL devices. It's that it requires your wiring to be code compliant. The electrical code is what requires certified devices. So if you use non-certified devices then you are code non-compliant which means you are in violation of your insurance policy.
Interesting, thanks. I believe the major driver of UL certification is when you, as a device manufacturer, want to sell your device in retail outlets; they are the ones who often demand UL certification before they'll stock and sell your product, because it minimises their legal liability to the consumer that buys your product. This is in fact UL's original reason for existing: "Underwriters Laboratory" = "Underwriters", as in insurance underwriters, and "Laboratory", as in testing products to meet certain standards that provide that legal coverage to retailers, and re-direct any legal recourse by a consumer directly to the manufacturer rather than the retailer.
My conclusion is that any non-UL approved Shelly is not legal to install in the walls of most homes in the US but that the UL approved Shelly is legal to have an electrician install in most homes in the US. Self install gets more grey but may also be legal with a building permit. National Electric Code 2017 (NEC) section 110.2 Approval says "The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved." This is generally interpreted by building departments as being "listed" by one of the recognized testing labs such as UL. Installing anything in the walls that isn't listed is usually interpreted as not permitted by code and insurance policies may include the option to deny claims for fires caused by electrical work that is not up to code. I'm not an electrician, inspector, nor adjuster, but you can easily Google: nec handbook 2017 edition pdf and read the nested and convoluted content yourself starting with 110.2, 110.3, and the definitions of Listed, Approved, Identified, and Labeled in chapter 1.
Technically having a UL certified device doesnt make a safer device. BUT you can bet that any company willing to go for the certification on a product put the time in to engineer a product to some degree of safety. Good on shelly for going the extra mile.
Note the difference between CE ("Conformité Européenne" (French for "European Conformity")) and CE (Chinese Export).
The spacing between the letters matters!
That’s an old wives tale. There’s no such thing as a China export symbol.
That interview was awkward as hell haha
mockingly the CE logo also stands for China Export
Actually, they build all of their products in Bulgaria, not China
Though the font looks the same the spacing between the letters is critical to tell the difference. CE is tangent circles looking like the number eight. China Export is two circles that intersect like a Venn diagram.
There is no china export mark, thats a myth. The misprint of the CE logo happened by different manufecturer completely unrelated of the fact of complying to it or not
Any links to the actual UL listing document? The Amazon product page doesn't say much about amps/voltage ratings. Video mentions "UL tested to 20A at 104deg F". If also rated at 240V, that makes this a great solution for my project to wi-fi enable shut-offs (and turn-ons) for the baseboard and in-floor heating throughout my house. It appears it may be small enough to put in the wiring compartment of baseboard heaters themselves, making this item cheaper than a manual or wall-mount thermostat for these units, up to 20 linear feet of bb heater! This could enable MASSIVE reductions in energy use by baseboard heating loads, and substantial quality-of-life improvements to people suffering from cheapo resistive electric heating systems with only on-unit thermostat controllers.
While I agree that it's very unlikely that an insurance policy would list UL or CSA as a requirement. If a Sonoff shorted out and burned my house down, and the fire inspector found it to be the cause, I'd bet the insurance company would love to try to deny the claim. Not a chance I want to take, so really glad to hear Shelly got UL! I had an electrical inspector fail my rough inspection because a 24v transformer for cabinet lighting only had RU markings not CSA or UL. The final inspector approved it, because it's the same unit everyone uses.
NEC requires a certification agency for new construction inspections, but you don't need to pull a permit to replace a light switch.
If your house burned down due diffinatively to a sonoff or similar device your insurance should pay the claim and then try to recover damages from the company involved.
Yup been there. Did a huge plc based home automation system 100+ channels of relays. Over 200 channels of dmx lighting ( over 3kw of 24v led strip hundreds of feet!) ac, door entry the works all custom and had it all field approved for the building inspecter by intertek. Was a fun one!
Oh man, was eagerly waiting for the network p3 video :D
Thanks for this great video though
This was a bonus video, Part 3 UniFi will be out on July 3rd :)
Me too!! XD. We'll need to wait another week :P
@@TheHookUp I had my hopes up for tomorrow lol
I already ordered a bunch of hardware and they're waiting for your wisdom! :D
Where Can I find the UL Pre-Certified Battery Packs? Can Someone suggest any suppliers?
Holy cow that power strip had been put through heck.
Thanks Rob, great information
Does cUL508a comply with the CSA standard?
Thanks Rob.
Love your channel so much
Does anyone know on what device did he install home assistant on and is there any cameras connected? Thanks
I have HA on a virtual machine (search my videos for a tutorial), I have 9 cameras on blue iris, all connected to HA for automations.
What if a company made an extra special part for ul cert but makes a really cheap crap part in comparison and sells it with the ul rating on it?
That's fraud and they would be in deep legal trouble.
new here. exactly the video I wanted to see. one question. do you have any info regarding WIFI elctromagnetic radiation emmited from shelly.(2.5)? they have 2 modes: access point and client. in access point I verified with them that the radiation is a lot higher. but I dont have any indication of how much is a lot or anny numbers. specifically I intend to put it as a client (not AP) and was wondering if I should be worried about wifi radiation. is there a certification for this that states something? any info regarding this you can share? thanks!
The Wi-Fi chip is a standard esp8266, the 2.4ghz EM emissions are completely harmless.
If you go to the UL site it actually also says the Shelly1 was certified along with the 2.5. Do you have any info on when the Shelly1 UL version will hit markets?
As an update on this, I reached out to support and they’re expecting to have the UL certified version of the Shelly 1 at the end of September
the new sheely 2.5 has pins exposed ! so easy to put tasmota. the template repo does have the config.....$11/sw is camparable to sonoff mini $8/sw w/o programmable pins
Look for documents that prove the certificate, otherwise anyone can print any logo. That is same for UL, CE, RoHS or all others
As I said, a CE certificate means nothing, anyone can get one by filling out some paperwork. UL sues companies that use their logo fraudulently.
CE is very rigid method in this type of product as very tests of electrical security, covers and electromagnetic tests should be done. Like I said, documents that prove this tests and CE conformity is different than a CE logo in a plastic case. Same as UL, in my opinion
Not at all. A company must ship their device you the UL laboratory and it is tested on standardized equipment by UL engineers. For CE all testing is done by the specific manufacturer in their own facilities on whatever equipment they have and they just fill out paperwork to say it meets CE standards, there is nothing stopping a company from submitting fraudulent test results.
I believe that you may have misunderstood the CE process - it is true that low risk items may be self certified but the majority of items that fall into any significant risk category must be submitted to a Notified Body for testing and approval. Of course the markings can be and are forged just as legally approved products can be re-engneered subsequently in a non compliant manner. The main weakness id in enforcement as this depends on the actions of a member country in the European Union and how seriously they view the issue.
Well, that is not true. In this case, almost all Smart Products need a Notified Body for testing and approval. That is why I said for look to documents. Is very different that I say my product complies the CE, and have a Notified Body that certificates my product (is required for general smart home products, eletrical ones, cameras, sensores...). This type of product only has CE certification if a notified body test and approve, otherwise CE marks are not legal and punishable by European law
Can you guide me where i can get ce notified certification. From india
You can selfcerticate CE, but this doesn't means you can avoid certificator's Labs tests !!!
i was wondering how much it costs to get that certification, anyone?
I've heard it's in the ballpark of $30,000-$40,000 USD per device, but if the device is a derivative of another certified device it is much cheaper.
@@TheHookUp thank you so much for the quick reply , appreciate nice, channel good info