Post-modernism seems to generate intellectual midgets who rather than recognize they should stand upon the shoulders of giants instead must tear down the giants to avoid the embarrassment of comparison.
@@thorinhannahs4614 And you must destroy the very idea of skyscrapers because even the concept of such a thing being possible reflects poorly upon their efforts and abilities.
Its not post modernism, it's just progressivism taken to an extreme. Everything is racist, bigoted, fatphobic. Calling people fat is now bigoted. You take logic that used to be applied to real issues like race and you apply it to literally everything else, heightism, colorism, ageism, classism. It's hyper-progressivism.
I remember when a reporter asked Ian McKellen if he thought it was disgraceful that they use straight actors to play gay roles thinking he would jump on the woke band wagon. And Ian replied "so by that stance you must think I can only play gay roles, not straight ones?" A legend
I remember that one, it was brilliant. And it really highlights the thing that seems to be forgotten these days: Actors' jobs is: ACTING. If someone can't act a role, they shouldn't have it. Gender, sexuality, etc does not matter. If they visually and mentally are portraying whatever the writer had in mind, then that's all that matters.
It's all make believe and they ruin it by thinking it needs to reflect reality. It's like Mac said: "Ian mckellan plays a wizard, do you think he goes home at the end of the day and shoots lasers out of his fingers into his boyfriend's asshole?"
The Drinker is spot on with his observation that people writing movies, shows, and even popular books today have little to no real life experiences to draw from. These people have no concept of what real people are like or what real human drama is. They are also usually very poorly read people. They didn't read the greats or study their techniques. Writers and filmmakers in the past would combine their experiences with their literary inspirations to create stories, but writers today just try to copy what they have seen before. They don't actually know why it was interesting or compelling, they just know that it was popular and so they try to mimic it without having any foundational experience to build on.
Yes, that is a big part of it. But I also think the not being well read is the bigger issue. A great writer can make something without having to experience it, living in someone elses skin so to speak. Research and knowing the proper techniques can make up for not being in a certain time/situation. But these people know neither.
@@christianbjorck816 I agree that being well read helps. And really skilled/insightful people can use that to help them write. But I do think that is far more rare than writers who have life experience to draw from. When I think of the great writers in history most of them went to or lived through wars, went on expeditions to new lands (not vacations), or lived long periods of their life in hardship. Also most of them had jobs before being writers that required them to interact on a daily basis with ordinary people. They were doctors, lawyers, mailmen, clerks, and so on. So when we talk about life experience, it also includes living the life of an ordinary person. There weren't a ton of writers back then that went to school to write and did nothing but that as a profession. I think even if you are well read it would be exceedingly hard to be a good writer while living in the bubble that modern writers do.
I was trying to help a young screenwriter improve his noir script. He cited TITANIC as the source for the romantic relationship and said Ross's mom was the antagonist. I recommend he study THE BIG SLEEP, and he said "Why should I look at a movie from the 40s." The thread ended when he claimed my comments, meant in good faith to help him be a better writer, were "disrespectful" and "offensive."
and they're all backed by publishers who solely care about how marketable something is, more so today than ever before. Quality is marketable, but not as easily achieved as simple-minded franchise spamming. Man I love Chris Nolan for so many things, perhaps more than most is the quote in his TDK movie saying "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain". This phrase extends soooo deep into so many industries today. They are suffering from their own success. Marvel pioneered the whole mega-franchise approach. They did the impossible. They made a superhero universe massively popular - and thus profitable. But they didn't know when to stop. When to call it quits. When to realize the market is getting oversaturated. Instead, they choose to milk that franchise for every drop it's worth, and other branches of modern film making has taken this approach to heart and are now milking literally every established profitable franchise in existence. That's why we have continuations of Star Wars, of Fast and Furious, of Lord of the Rings, of Harry Potter. And they all have one thing in common: They're inspired by marketability, rather than originality. Original works have the major unknown factor that is: "We do not know if this will be a major success or not". With established IPs and franchises, this factor goes down drastically, and in turn promises consistent high revenue - EVEN IF the end product itself wouldn't be able to stand on its own legs. It is carried by the franchise it is a part of. Standalone, it would fail, or it would fade into irrelevance quickly - being at best a seasonal flick or some weekend tv worthy watch. If you look at things, everyone are trying to make "big blockbusters" now. That didn't use to be the case 15+ years ago, because back then a big blockbuster would come with major consequences such as "is the writing and acting good enough? Is the story intriguing and well written?". All these factors would determine the success of a big budget movie back then, because they didn't step on the shoulders of prior giants when making a name for themselves. Their quality equalled their profit. Today, quality no longer equals profit. Because no one does original work anymore, so quality doesn't have to exist to establish hype and interest. Quality, you might say, is in their eyes just wasted time and budget. It is not a necessity for success, it is at best just a happy byproduct in a few cases, but far from the norm.
Cliff, you MUST have Critical Drinker on again in the near future. There is much more that can be discussed and your banter is nice and much needed. Love your channel.
I'm sooooo glad you brought up Patrice O'Neal. He is so underrated, but probably the most honest man who worked in showbusiness and had the balls to burn bridges, in order to keep his integrity.
My father was friends with Robert and Jill Donner. Jill was a screenwriter and I asked her questions about the shows that she had worked on. She wrote a couple of episodes of Star Trek, and what she said intrigued me (and should shed some light on what you are talking about, including continuity). Apparently, the producers gave her layouts of the ship, explanations of terms and jargon in Star Trek, and other files containing vital information she should know while writing an episode. I highly doubt that protocols such as that are being followed today.
It was really interesting when Clifton brought up Captain Marvel in a "male dominated society" because the first thing that came to mind was the horrendous flashback montage from that movie where she is remembering countless moments of being oppressed by the 'male patriarchy' notably one clip of air force recruits discouraging her , it really tied into what the drinker was saying about woke writers having next to no life experience of hardships or having any military service.They see everything through the lens of their ideology first, characters and story are their last priorities.
Great conversation between two great guys. One note... @TheCriticalDrinker lists Adam Driver among the current crop of young actors that lack the life experience of past generations... He actually enlisted in the Marines after September 11 and, though he was discharged for a non-combat injury 2.5 years in, I would not lump him in with the other "soft" actors of his generation. The fact that he enlisted is a good sign of character, not to mention the life experience he gained.
I absolutely love how often I am hearing the name Thomas Sowell lately. IMO he is the most important and far too neglected intellectual of the last 50 years. I first came across his name about 7 years ago and read 6 of his books and really want to read them all. I said a few years ago that it is a crime that his name is not common knowledge but I am seeing more and more that is being corrected.
at 44:00 when talking about Luke with the mind trick compared to Rey; Luke also immediately tried using it against Jabba and it failed; so even at max power Luke was not allowed to 'win' all situations the way Rey was. TFA was already annoying the crap out of me by that time but that also was a big "f*** this film" moment for me.
100% agreed. He had been put in the naughty corner by the academies and media for several decades. His level of intellectual curiosity and calm rationality was, and still is, a threat to the mainstream narrative. The fact he's black meant he couldn't be attacked the same way anyone else with his views is.
@@timeweston Well, "they're" giving up on the pretense now. Just look at all the despicable things they've come out and said regarding Justice Thomas and Eric July: when the light is shown on them they always revert back to their old tricks.
it's because since Jan 2021 Thomas SowellTV channel has been publishing clips of interviews going back well over a decade. The titles of the clips are related to social, political, and economic issues that are relevant today. That is why the YT algorithm has produced more links to Sowell's work than ever before. The ABOUT tab on the channel says: "Enjoy the best of Dr. Thomas Sowell. We use the work of Dr. Sowell to debunk cultural narratives."
keynesian economics created the largest , broadest economy the world has ever seen .the austrian economists like hayek freidman and sowell shrink the middle class and blow up poverty. but instead of having a conversation about class its a fight between the woke and the anti-woke.
Two of the smartest, well-spoken, insightful guys on YT regarding movie commentary and the current plight of the industry. Thank you so much, Clifton and CD, you guys should do this again someday!
Clifton nails the Hero's Journey. I had the same reaction to the first rebooted Star Wars film. The original trilogy was written with a growth-mindset at its core: Luke is a nobody who battles his way to the top, and even then it's not certain he will win. The Force Awakens is written for people with a fragile, fixed-mindset, which is why Rey must demonstrate innate superiority at the first opportunity. The whole film is a vanity mirror for gender ideologues.
Yeah, I didn't realize it at first, but Kylo losing to Rey was the critical moment that meant the trilogy wasn't going to work. That managed to ruin both the hero *and* the villain in one scene, and for no reason. If they're going to escape due to a convenient crevasse, Kylo could have been about to win the fight, which would have made him more threatening and given Rey something to work towards in the next movie. But no, Rey just had to be perfect from the beginning. (That would be fine if she was supposed to be the Paragon -- the Gandalf or Dumbledore -- but that's clearly not her role.)
Yeah it's just god aweful writing. It's about maturity. Thinking "it's cool" when the hero does everything perfectly is how a 5 year old would try to write a story. Aren't these adults?
@@paulpena5040 I don't think it's impossible to write a good movie that way. Like a Bond movie, or certain kinds of comedies, it could work. But it's definitely a bad idea for a *trilogy* -- and particularly for a Star Wars trilogy.
@@pfeilspitze True there is a place for "fluff" entertainment. Bond is like action porn. But even in that franchise he makes mistakes and has to adjust - Look at Casino Royale where he lost more than 1 hand of poker to Leschiffe and gets visibly agitated. Yet even in that universe the secret agent had tons of training which at least makes it somewhat believable. But REY, she is just perfect from day one. And even her motivations are not compelling or clear.
The most obvious example for me would be the live action Mulan. The animated Mulan was exactly the perfect hero's journey. It triggers wish fulfilment, you want to emulate Mulan dedication to overcoming her flaws for her family and then country. The new live action version, she's BORN special. It was always her destiny to succeed.
"They can put in all kinds of racial minorities, sexual minorities, or whatever. It's not going to make a difference if they're not going back to the core root of who humanity is." Very well-said! The great 19th Century French Reactionary, Joseph de Maistre, once quipped of the Rights of Man, "In my lifetime, I have seen French, Italians, Russians, etc. Thanks to Montesquieu, I even know that one can be Persian. But as for Man, I declare that I have never in my life met him. If he exists, he exists unknown to me." The modern Left, ironically, has come full round to de Maistre's way of thinking in identity politics, albeit without the wit that makes de Maistre a joy to read.
The other actor they auditioned for The Graduate was Robert Redford. There was also a story that Mike Nichols asked him how he would react to getting turned down by a girl and Redford didn't understand the question.
@@nuckygulliver9607 I feel like people used to look way older in general. Our lives are twice as long now but feature less than half the growth/experience of previous generations.
Taylor Swift becoming "political" was nothing more than her audition for Hollywood Executives. She wants that sweet, sweet Hollywood acting career. Sure, she can't act, but that has never stopped us before!
You have no idea what you're talking about. She was worth a bazillion dollars when she went woke after being beaten down by the constant "Taylor's silence on [woke agenda item du jour] is deafening!" hit pieces. The irony is that when she sold out to woketardedness, she claimed that previously she was doing what she was told, but now she's her own person. Right. She became what was demanded of her and now she's authentic. I figured that her flipping woke and flipping off her country base would wreck her, but nope. The old fans stuck by Tay Tay and the new fans for her pop dreck (other than 1989; that album is a banger) have combined to make her the top-selling live tour ever, selling out football stadiums for multiple nights and grossing nearly $600M. But sure, she wants to get some Hollywood money. /rolleyes
Conflict is what is missing. True and meaningful Conflict. The kind that changes you. The kind that costs you to face. The hard cold Conflict that breaks you, only for the question to be asked will you rise up and face it? Or are we going to cower away from any conflicts because of its very nature to inspire that change? At my workplace (leftist dominant) they wrote me up for insubordination because I asked questions but their answers never made sense. Questions lead to Conflict, so it's unsafe work environment and that can't happen in a work place... sigh... so I quit to find something better, let's hope it's another chapter in my personal journey. Thanks for another great video
and you hit the nail on the head with the stories now. these screenwriters are mostly all coddled from birth and were raised in a culture where you just ghost people if the situation becomes uncomfortable. Nobody has to engage when conflict happens they just avoid it ... so they're not learning or growling and their stories are lacking in any real drama or villains worth watching. Evil is just evil works for some simple stories but growing up avoiding legitimate conflicts has given these people nothing to pull from so their writing is inauthentic and forced and the characters don't really seem to behave like real people in their situations should or would. It all feels insanely shallow and sad.
Absolutely correct. 41:54 I want to emphasize the point Duncan is making here. There will absolutely be a "reflexive rejection" from audiences when it comes to this subject. His phrase is so eloquent and perfect, I am going use it. However, this reflexive rejection is very much alive at this point. How many here did not watch The Last Jedi, or Lightyear, or will not watch the LotR Amazon show, because we knew ahead they would be woke? We are already rejecting this nonsense and even the new Top Gun is evidence of it. Excellent show guys, loved every second of it!
I've been skipping new releases for a while. At best you get a good story for the first forty odd minutes then BAM!!!! The train wreck occurs. It's best to wait for the reviews to decide if you're going to watch something.
Totally agree. I caught myself watching something the other day (can't remember what it was) and as soon as a black actress came on screen I had an automatic 'oh here we go' reaction. And it completely caught me off guard. Prior to all this woke nonsense, it wouldn't mean a thing to me- I would be eager to see the talent of the actor, how their character fit into the story etc. And now it's just 'theres the diversity hire'. And I was upset with myself that I have started to be subconsciously influenced like this. I think in one way it's why I like revisiting older works, because if there's a non-white person in it, they're just there because they're talented and important to the story. I absolutely agree this reflexive rejection is going on right now.
@@katthunter6561: It's a serious disservice to women and/or minority characters. In the past they were characters who had flaws, failed, made mistakes and became awesome as a result of struggling as much as the white men. Now they're perfect from word go and totally boring. Identity aside characters need flaws and struggle to be good.
@@katthunter6561 Absolutely. I never gave a second thought to anyone that appeared on screen. A good example for me is the Walking Dead. I was deep into that show and mixed cast meant nothing to me. Now the show is woke, I don’t watch it now but it’s obvious many characters have been added for diversity points and not telling the story.
Pretty sure this was recommended because I am subbed to Drinker. That being said, my dude, you are INCREDIBLY well spoken. I really enjoyed this conversation and will be subbing and keeping an eye on your channel. My best wishes for your success!
I was surprised to find that out too, because I knew him first as The Critical Drinker. Then I remembered his video on how to improve the ending of Game of Thrones and it all made sense. The depth and level of understanding he had on character development, pacing and plot progression, and ultimately conflict resolution would've been too knowledgeable for anyone who wasn't already an experienced writer.
Strong female character. Hmm. Was watching The African Queen on TV a couple of weeks ago. 1951. 71 years ago. Rose Sayer, played by Katharine Hepburn is a woman who knows her own mind but develops and softens as does her counterpart played by Humphrey Bogart. She faces the jungle, the river and even execution with dignity and courage and eventually helps to destroy an enemy ship. Strong female character who has an engaging story arc.
There is an interesting connecting theme of "hurting someone by mindlessly thinking you are 'helping' them" in your two examples from the acting world. The first one you mentioned were actors introducing themselves by everyone having to state their pronouns, and the second was actors from "marginalized groups" being given undeserved awards/roles/etc by a guilt-ridden entertainment industry. Considering the second one first, you've seen the backlash from audiences that occurs against those actors, and being known for huge controversy - for example, consider Kelly Marie Tran's waning star, among others - will kill a future career like nothing else. In the case of the pronoun situations, the damage is done through reinforcing or creating mental phobias in people, through a psychological process called "operant conditioning". The insidious thing about "operant conditioning" is that it is not only negative experiences, but _positive_ ones as well, that can instill or exacerbate a phobia. Somehow this danger from "positive" experiences gets overlooked, even though everyone knows that - for example - a person with a fear of leaving their house does not get better by staying inside for months, but only becomes more fearful and sick even as they don't have to deal with the potential emotional terror of being outside. The same thing happens to people who fear someone saying the wrong thing to them - they are not made more comfortable by being coddled by the world. In actual fact, their discomfort only increases. And left untreated, phobias can lead to thoughts of suicide, substance abuse, mood disorders, depression, and other illnesses, especially if events occur to reinforce the fear response (again, this includes *positive* reinforcement events such as avoidance of fearful situations). Validating a person's fear is not kindness; it is unthinkable cruelty masquerading as simple-minded altruism. Ultimately, altruism can easily become pathological - or maladaptive might be a better description for it - at both the personal and the societal level, and "good intentions" will end up meaning nothing when you mindlessly destroy the human being that you hoped you were saving.
@@CliftonADuncan You know my honest opinion. Black men aren't doing enough for their own industry so you have 2 different bases clashing with each other. Can you image where we would be if black men were creating fantasy and horror and arthouse films and video games simultaneously. for their audiences just as Asians were doing the same keeping up with America? You completely neglected to foster a market that could've been there by 2022. You would have a gaming studio or animation by now. Tyler Perry has his own studio. Instead you have black men being complaining of these forced groups when it falls on YOUR shoulders to make sure that an industry is there for black women in entertainment.
@@CliftonADuncan I can't take you seriously if Madea is the biggest thing for African Americans. You wasted all those years post Blaxploitation doing nothing but begging for seats at tables that were made for a handful like Denzel, Will Smith, and Eddie Murphy. The legacy for black Hollywood isn't there.
@@williampearson6299 Blah blah, he is not the savior of black men, wtf is these comments? Yaull are so damn dull and off of the point. Why does it have to be " All black everything", just shut up and do your part, if you happen to be black then bonus points but no one gives a damn. Now go sing some R Kelly, believe you can fly or somethin ffs.
I passionately agree with at least 95% of what the Critical Drinker says in every video he makes. His finger is most definitely on the pulse. Living legend.
Brilliant, insightful and smart commentary...both...spot on in so many ways. As someone who works in the industry. We reward the least talented and give the organ grinders the keys to the car and are we surprised when it crashes and burns.
16:42...... you just described Henry Cavill on the set of the Witcher. Which is why people love him and despise the showrunners who, by and large, hate the source material.
Engaging, fast-paced, free-wheeling interview with the Critical Drinker that delves into the hyper-identity consciousness and other maladies in modern popular cinema 📽️ and theater 🎭.
TS and VDH brilliant thinkers 👍🏼 It seems movies have become a struggle session for the audience instead of the audience witnessing the struggles and triumph of the protagonist.
Many writers today aim for ‘timeliness, rather than timelessness’. A spot on observation. There needs to be more attention paid to archetypal stories and story structure, these are the stories, films, books, etc, that will resonate down the ages.
Artistic creativity does not necessarily require experience. It requires research and imagination. Actors understand this better than most. The poor quality of movies today says more about the business interests that control the industry than about the actual filmmakers.
I was a "theater kid" all throughout high school and my freshman year of college. I sang the male lead portion of our choral rendition of "Seasons of Love" and played the role of Ligniere in our troupe performance of Cyrano. But I dropped out of college after a year and a half to pursue a military career, and I'm very glad I did so. To see the utterly Babylonian state of the theater industry from the outside in, and to think that I could have been a part of that apparatus if I'd stayed the course, still give me shudders to think about. The price of my soul and humanity is higher than what the Gomorrites of Hollywood offer.
I was born of this generation and my parents always show me older movies, especially my Dad who showed me The Last Starfighter years ago and I was just in love with that movie. You don't really get that feeling much out of the movies of my generation because they're either made to check boxes or they are made out of spite. It's because of movies like the new Jurassic World that's causing me to write my own screenplay, It's crazy how some 19 year old typing on google docs can try to come up with a better story than The largest movie make in the world.
Good luck. It shouldn't be too hard to top the terrible scripts of most movies today. With luck, and the right attitude, you could certainly become a success. If the industry of (at best) mediocre identitarian hacks lets you...
@Ali Chaudhry It's not that I'm being lazy, it's just that those indie films are far off from Hollywoood. I'm sure there are good indie films, but you have to go through certain hoops to find them.
Keep going dude. I started on the same task when I was your age. I'm 42 and still have yet to complete one of my, oh....16 projects or so. I don't think I'll ever be done but I've learned what not to do. . I'm not gonna claim to have the best advice and take it ot leave it if you want, but one thing I have learned about any creative endeavor is that the most important thing is just GET SOMETHING DOWN. Even if it sucks, just get it out. You can always go back and edit. You will never, never get perfection right out of the gate. So, fuck it! Let your imagination run wild and just crank those wild visions out. Best wishes and I hope to see your name in the credits of something mind blowing. Dream big, motherfucker!
Thank you, Bad Connection, for restoring my faith in the younger generation. I showed The Last Starfighter to some Gen Z's in my family. They didn't get it at all. I was heartbroken. You've given me hope for the future.
Clifton, there was a mention of Cary Grant and a comparison of how actors today conduct themselves so differently versus his era...which makes this quote from Mr. Grant particularly apropos: "I'm opposed to actors taking sides in public and spouting spontaneously about love, religion or politics. We aren't experts on these subjects. Personally I'm a mass of inconsistencies when it comes to politics. My opinions are constantly changing. That's why I don't ever take a public stand on issues." - Cary Grant
Subbed 10! I saw Critical come up from nothing really, a real early subscriber...this is first rate what the internet should be, this level of philosophy where art, society and culture are discussed and compared by smart people that can talk and listen deeply to each other, all the while regaling an audience with such depth interest and mutual respect. We need more of this as the corporates become diluted watered down vanilla.
Well said - modern films and tv series suffer from terrible scripts by terrible scriptwriters... great visuals, fx, actors and directors cannot fix a bad story repeating everything done before it and inputing modern values. Where are the good scriptwiters??? As Robin Green said "Repetition is the death of art."
There seems to be a block package of writing like it’s a framework given to these woker-drone writers like a call centre script. They have to weave a story around: -Straight white men are incompetent -The bad guy is Trump -All black women can do “science” -Anti-colonialisation messaging -A female character is the key to everything It’s like one of those Nacho kits you get but you have to add your own ‘Star Trek’ or ‘Indiana Jones’ flavour to it.
A white male character can be portrayed positively, as long as he's on program with "the message," he's "one of the good ones." He must accept transgenderism as legitimate and support brave women standing against "the patriarchy." Sometimes, the bad guy is Elon or Bill Gates. There must be a girl boss character. Girl bosses take no Ls and always win no matter what, be it in a social situation with coworkers, or a hand to hand combat against professional fighters. They really need to push the idea that women are fit to lead in every aspect of life, not because of qualifications or their righteousness of character, but by dint of gender. Wait, didn't I just describe sexism?
Yes. There's so many checkboxes to tick now compared to movies 10-30 years ago. I mean the og star wars films seems to only have one checkbox - "Fun". Compared to what you have now. I don't have issues if they want to represent diversity and other woke messages but make it quality or don't overshadow the fun. Also don't keep using established well loved franchises to keep on doing it e.g Dr Who, Star Wars, the 2022 predator etc.
To what you mentioned about black actors now hired for diversity points above all else, unlike the past where actors were more assured of their worth, it reminded me of a recent interview on The Unspeakable. Daum was interviewing the choreographer Lincoln Jones who does not play the diversity points game, and you got a spot in his company on your abilities alone. The reasons he gave for this were two fold. First it would create disharmony and resentment in the troupe if people were given positions based on immutable characteristics alone. This is important for a company. Second and really important is for the person who gets the position based on ESG points for a grant he or she, no matter how much they achieve, will always at the back of their mind wonder was it just this one characteristic that got me here or was it truly my abilities and hard work. That undermines people's sense of self and joy in achievement so much.
WJ has brought me to tears sometimes with his commentary. He loves movies / shows / stories as much as I do and he's able to point out the things that are being destroyed in them and how that affects and deprives the culture. I really appreciate him.
I remember a scene from the original Matrix movie where Agent Smith, I think it was, was telling Neo that the first iteration of the Matrix was all rainbows and unicorns and it collapsed. It was a failure. We need adversity, we need reality to smack us in the face, otherwise, it's not believable, it's not real. Sci-fi and fantasy are great, any story is great, but only if it is grounded in some archetypical foundation. Something that we as humans understand to be a fundamental foundation of who we are. So much of the stuff being produced today has none of that.
"Grit" is a perfect word to use. One reason I love watching the first series or 2 of Heartbreak High (Australian teen drama from the 90s when I was young) is cause it was gritty - it wasn't afraid to have rascism in it, because it reflected real life. And Rocky is an immense film, again gritty showing him living in a dump and striving to be better. I p[ersonally am not even interested in all these action hero movies, they all just look exactly the same and have uninteresting actors/actresses in them - and I actually really enjoyed the cartoons as a child. Great conversation Clifton
Clifton, have you considered recording audiobooks? I think your voice would be great for narration. A great narrator is key to enjoying an audiobook. Perhaps you can do voices too...
Duncan nailed it. There are so many movies I have watched because actor\actress "X" was in it. Even if it sucks, I will like watching him\her. But none of them are new movies.
Back in the old days of video stores I'd rent movies I'd never heard of just because they had Al Pacino or someone good like that in them. Nowadays I just avoid movies BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT AN ACTOR'S CAREER, usually due to his history of political lectures.
What he said at 16:50 reminds me of a Rob Alger video about Dirty Harry. Scorpio wasn’t hired to because people liked him, he was hired because Clint Eastwood thought that he, in particular his eyes, made an expressive contrast to his own character in the film. What I find interesting is that Scorpio also was able to ad lib and improv many of his scenes in the film as well.
Those older movies were just written in ways that were above the heads of the average movie watcher. Written by professional crafters of stories. Today the average movie goer can sit there in the theatre and pick out major plot holes and think of a million ways the writers could have gone to make more sense than what was released. Insults to our intelligence were more rare of an occurrence back then.
It's because the characters feel real. They are individual, unique, and imperfect. Another good example I often come back to is the original "Ghostbusters". Every character and actor delivers an original and unique performance that is full of life and joy. Most movies fail to have such real humanity today. In part, because of the world that has created shallow actors, but also because a script and movie are so scrutinized and homogenized by the system to never cause offense, that the chance for anything real, new, or original is also drained away.
Loved this podcast. Especially baby with the bath water analogy. I’m a massive hp lovecraft fan. I’ve read his short stories/books, seen some shitty b-level movies (and some great ones) about his works specifically, but also a massive amount of horror which was influenced by him. Alien, evil dead, the thing, prince of darkness, ghostbusters, even horizon, the mist, It…..all influenced by lovecraft. However, people have openly challenged me about it. “He was a racist, so how could you support him?”. My goodness, like 3/4 of the world was racist a hundred years ago. Everyone hated everyone, and it wasn’t until modern times (last 50 years, probably even 30) that we all started dropping many misconceptions about other humans based off their skin colour or culture. But does that mean We should just throw away all the works of the man who is literally the grandfather of modern horror, who influenced an entire generation? I don’t think so. Celebrate the good things about them. Learn from their bad points/flaws and do better in our day to day lives.
Lovecraft was writing during the Jim Crow era, when lynchings were a regular occurrence, north and south. These idiots need to watch some movies filmed in the 20s and 30s and see how the black characters were treated in film contemporary to Lovecraft; they'd find out what real racism looks like.
This was an excellent podcast. I’m a fan of the drinker and decided to watch for him. I got a lot out of this. I myself want to write and create and put work out there. I run a DnD game I’m very proud of and would love to adapt it. As someone who wants to put work out there I am becoming more conscientious about what my work says. I want to put stories out there that tell the audience that heroes are real, that life is worth living and can be improved, albeit slowly and piece by piece, that the high road is worth walking, difficult as it may be, that there is light at the end of struggle, and that just because you don’t get what you want, doesn’t mean life is abysmal. I wouldn’t say I came out of this podcast learning things I didn’t know, but it’s helping me to consider them more deeply, and the two of you being very well spoken helped but into words, thoughts I knew I had but couldn’t quite vocalize. I want look more into learning from the classics, understanding what makes something timeless, how much of myself and focus I should put into the espousement of philosophy and world view, the importance of having friction and disagreement with my collaborators, the importance of diversity of thought in collaboration, giving diverse people a spotlight without pandering or tokenizing, or walking on egg shells. I think I’m on the right track to make good and worthwhile entertainment. But I want to dig deeper and double down on making things worthy of standing the test of time, whether they do so or not.
I watched this video because of Critical Drinker. I think he’s incredibly insightful & funny in a sarcastic vein. I subscribed because you’ve got so much interesting insight to offer. Your intelligence and institutional knowledge was awesome. You were great together & Iook forward to more of your video’s
The first video of the drinker I ever watched was the hilarious female gaming rant, whilst simultaneously showing clips of badass female gaming characters over decades, since the 80s. Hooked me More convos between you two please! Two people with passion & experience in the universe of storytelling! More, more, more!
Drinker's really been making the rounds! Happy for his channels success! Always great to watch and have a laugh and ponder his insights into story telling.
Great conversation! I was an early subscriber for both of you. Your interview skills are really starting to shine. You reference so many interesting books, you should provide some links in your descriptions. Some links to your guest's works would be a bonus as well.
@@CliftonADuncan It's a great idea... you're an extremely well read and erudite cat... links to some of these books being brought up by you and your guests would be great reference material. Keep up the fantastic work!
"There's just no edge about you anymore" This is going to be a weird example but even Animal Crossing has this problem. Yes it's a "baby game" etc. etc. but I find it very relaxing to play. In the older games some of the villagers would be straight up ***holes. There would be pushy salesmen characters, and if you forgot to save you'd be forced to click through a bunch of aggressive dialogue from Resetti. None of this exists now. All of the villagers love you all the time, Resetti's been retired, and the villagers don't feel as real anymore.
I suspect movies are disposable now because instead of presenting the world as they perceive it (as their contemporary audiences would), they present a world as they perceive it should be. Suspension of disbelief can only take so much and so many plot holes.
I'd love to see a part 2 to this! This is a team up that explores the heart of the real issues. It's interesting too, I was just talking with my partner today about how it's the lack of real life experience that has stunted these milk toast writers. There's no substance to what they're doing because they're vapid hollow shells of the elitist world that they so prolifically try to undermine and destroy. This isn't even an age thing its more a matter of not having to grind to be the better writer, actor, or whatever. This the decline of true characterization within our entertainment all caught up in a veil of self importance. Good stream!
I just watched "Leon, the professional" and it's still fantastic. So much better than the junk coming out today. That's why Top Gun Maverick is so popular, it's a real movie, and not political propaganda .
I rewatched Nikita recently and felt the same. But then I rewatched The Fifth Element and I was like, uhh well this one still sucks. Oh well, Nikita and Leon were good!
An amazing example of an older movie that has an agenda but is still good is BORN on the Fourth of July. That movie is an example of how to make an amazing movie with great acting and characters that just so happens to have an agenda. Nowadays, movies have an agenda and just so happen to have good characters here and there and good acting.
That’s pretty much it right there in that opening sentence. Some of the best sci fi and fantasy ever for example, Planet Of The Apes, Seven Days In May, The Twilight Zone, all created by Rod Serling: a man carrying the emotional scars of fighting the Japanese in WWII and witnessing his best friend’s violent accidental death. But he was also a deeply well read and literate man. Education and life experience. You can’t supplement these things.
Quoting the great Patrice O’Neal is an instant sub for me, few people understood the industry like he did so early. Excellent convo guys, you both do great work.
Just read, re-read rather, CS Lewis's TILL WE HAVE FACES. It was like watching a film while reading it. Why hasn't someone given this a film treatment??
Absolutely critical point from Critical Drinker about how many of those in the creative team for the original Trek series were military veterans and had LIFE EXPERIENCE. That maturity and experience is quite obvious in the finished episodes, especially compared to tv episodes created today by people who seem to have no real world experience in anything...!
tremendous episode; love these two guys' deep knowledge and passion for film and the broader arts, and their deep understanding of story architecture. so fun listening to duncan mock the absurdity of modern 'star wars', abandoning the hero's journey, etc. keep up the great work.
What a sobering conversation! No pun intended! I came here from the Drinker and I am not disappointed! I'll be going through your catalog and looking forward to more in the future! Subbed!
"You know when you’re searching for the Lost Ark of the Covenant or the Holy Grail that you’re dealing with quests. Take away Indy’s leather jacket, fedora, and whip and give him chain mail, helmet, and lance and see if he doesn’t look considerably like Sir Gawain." -Thomas C. Foster
So much of this is class based. I spoke to a lawyer in Hollywood several years ago. And he told me how the industry was becoming much more monolithic. They are very loathe to bring in unvetted outsiders. So you have a growing echo chamber of upperclass writers/producers who, like Critical Drinker said, have very little life experience. These people are talking about privilege non-stop, yet will never address their own. So many of the great comedies dealt with class: Meatballs, Caddyshack, Blues Brothers, Animal House, even Wedding Crashers to a degree. Where are the great comedies? The upperclass aren't gonna write them.
Thank you Clifton, as always you have given us a gem of a show. Disclaimer, found you through FNT. Love you work, your intelligent discourse, and your widely varied selection of intelligent and interesting guests. Thank you. Greetings from the land down under.
Post-modernism seems to generate intellectual midgets who rather than recognize they should stand upon the shoulders of giants instead must tear down the giants to avoid the embarrassment of comparison.
Excellent observation.
Yes rather than build up your own building to be a skyscraper you tear down any building taller than your own.
@@thorinhannahs4614 And you must destroy the very idea of skyscrapers because even the concept of such a thing being possible reflects poorly upon their efforts and abilities.
Its not post modernism, it's just progressivism taken to an extreme. Everything is racist, bigoted, fatphobic. Calling people fat is now bigoted. You take logic that used to be applied to real issues like race and you apply it to literally everything else, heightism, colorism, ageism, classism. It's hyper-progressivism.
Underrated comment
I remember when a reporter asked Ian McKellen if he thought it was disgraceful that they use straight actors to play gay roles thinking he would jump on the woke band wagon. And Ian replied "so by that stance you must think I can only play gay roles, not straight ones?" A legend
I remember that one, it was brilliant. And it really highlights the thing that seems to be forgotten these days: Actors' jobs is: ACTING. If someone can't act a role, they shouldn't have it. Gender, sexuality, etc does not matter. If they visually and mentally are portraying whatever the writer had in mind, then that's all that matters.
Just like how I like that George Takei disagreed with them making Sulu gay just because George is gay.
It's all make believe and they ruin it by thinking it needs to reflect reality.
It's like Mac said: "Ian mckellan plays a wizard, do you think he goes home at the end of the day and shoots lasers out of his fingers into his boyfriend's asshole?"
Imagine Niles Crane from the show "Frasier" not being played by David Hyde Pierce...
@@Elgsdyr Wait Niles isn't gay?
The Drinker is spot on with his observation that people writing movies, shows, and even popular books today have little to no real life experiences to draw from. These people have no concept of what real people are like or what real human drama is. They are also usually very poorly read people. They didn't read the greats or study their techniques. Writers and filmmakers in the past would combine their experiences with their literary inspirations to create stories, but writers today just try to copy what they have seen before. They don't actually know why it was interesting or compelling, they just know that it was popular and so they try to mimic it without having any foundational experience to build on.
Yes, that is a big part of it. But I also think the not being well read is the bigger issue. A great writer can make something without having to experience it, living in someone elses skin so to speak. Research and knowing the proper techniques can make up for not being in a certain time/situation. But these people know neither.
@@christianbjorck816 I agree that being well read helps. And really skilled/insightful people can use that to help them write. But I do think that is far more rare than writers who have life experience to draw from. When I think of the great writers in history most of them went to or lived through wars, went on expeditions to new lands (not vacations), or lived long periods of their life in hardship. Also most of them had jobs before being writers that required them to interact on a daily basis with ordinary people. They were doctors, lawyers, mailmen, clerks, and so on. So when we talk about life experience, it also includes living the life of an ordinary person. There weren't a ton of writers back then that went to school to write and did nothing but that as a profession. I think even if you are well read it would be exceedingly hard to be a good writer while living in the bubble that modern writers do.
I was trying to help a young screenwriter improve his noir script. He cited TITANIC as the source for the romantic relationship and said Ross's mom was the antagonist. I recommend he study THE BIG SLEEP, and he said "Why should I look at a movie from the 40s." The thread ended when he claimed my comments, meant in good faith to help him be a better writer, were "disrespectful" and "offensive."
and they're all backed by publishers who solely care about how marketable something is, more so today than ever before. Quality is marketable, but not as easily achieved as simple-minded franchise spamming.
Man I love Chris Nolan for so many things, perhaps more than most is the quote in his TDK movie saying "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain".
This phrase extends soooo deep into so many industries today. They are suffering from their own success. Marvel pioneered the whole mega-franchise approach. They did the impossible. They made a superhero universe massively popular - and thus profitable. But they didn't know when to stop. When to call it quits. When to realize the market is getting oversaturated. Instead, they choose to milk that franchise for every drop it's worth, and other branches of modern film making has taken this approach to heart and are now milking literally every established profitable franchise in existence. That's why we have continuations of Star Wars, of Fast and Furious, of Lord of the Rings, of Harry Potter. And they all have one thing in common: They're inspired by marketability, rather than originality. Original works have the major unknown factor that is: "We do not know if this will be a major success or not". With established IPs and franchises, this factor goes down drastically, and in turn promises consistent high revenue - EVEN IF the end product itself wouldn't be able to stand on its own legs. It is carried by the franchise it is a part of. Standalone, it would fail, or it would fade into irrelevance quickly - being at best a seasonal flick or some weekend tv worthy watch.
If you look at things, everyone are trying to make "big blockbusters" now. That didn't use to be the case 15+ years ago, because back then a big blockbuster would come with major consequences such as "is the writing and acting good enough? Is the story intriguing and well written?". All these factors would determine the success of a big budget movie back then, because they didn't step on the shoulders of prior giants when making a name for themselves. Their quality equalled their profit.
Today, quality no longer equals profit. Because no one does original work anymore, so quality doesn't have to exist to establish hype and interest. Quality, you might say, is in their eyes just wasted time and budget. It is not a necessity for success, it is at best just a happy byproduct in a few cases, but far from the norm.
Absolutely 🥃
19:02 Christopher Lee is a wicked example even though he was privileged he did go through hardship incredible life RIP Lord Sir Don Lee
Cliff, you MUST have Critical Drinker on again in the near future. There is much more that can be discussed and your banter is nice and much needed.
Love your channel.
great interview, you got a new suscriber here.
What a couple of real good bastards.
You mean susan?
@@felipecampos3045 oh yep, that's correct. my bad. haha
Agreed. Would also like them to make a drinker's after hours episode, where they talk about a movie they both love.
I'm sooooo glad you brought up Patrice O'Neal. He is so underrated, but probably the most honest man who worked in showbusiness and had the balls to burn bridges, in order to keep his integrity.
Fact!
My father was friends with Robert and Jill Donner. Jill was a screenwriter and I asked her questions about the shows that she had worked on. She wrote a couple of episodes of Star Trek, and what she said intrigued me (and should shed some light on what you are talking about, including continuity). Apparently, the producers gave her layouts of the ship, explanations of terms and jargon in Star Trek, and other files containing vital information she should know while writing an episode. I highly doubt that protocols such as that are being followed today.
Love these cultural warriors who willing to make fun of lunacy and keep humor.
It was really interesting when Clifton brought up Captain Marvel in a "male dominated society" because the first thing that came to mind was the horrendous flashback montage from that movie where she is remembering countless moments of being oppressed by the 'male patriarchy' notably one clip of air force recruits discouraging her , it really tied into what the drinker was saying about woke writers having next to no life experience of hardships or having any military service.They see everything through the lens of their ideology first, characters and story are their last priorities.
Great conversation between two great guys.
One note... @TheCriticalDrinker lists Adam Driver among the current crop of young actors that lack the life experience of past generations...
He actually enlisted in the Marines after September 11 and, though he was discharged for a non-combat injury 2.5 years in, I would not lump him in with the other "soft" actors of his generation.
The fact that he enlisted is a good sign of character, not to mention the life experience he gained.
I absolutely love how often I am hearing the name Thomas Sowell lately. IMO he is the most important and far too neglected intellectual of the last 50 years. I first came across his name about 7 years ago and read 6 of his books and really want to read them all. I said a few years ago that it is a crime that his name is not common knowledge but I am seeing more and more that is being corrected.
at 44:00 when talking about Luke with the mind trick compared to Rey; Luke also immediately tried using it against Jabba and it failed; so even at max power Luke was not allowed to 'win' all situations the way Rey was. TFA was already annoying the crap out of me by that time but that also was a big "f*** this film" moment for me.
100% agreed. He had been put in the naughty corner by the academies and media for several decades.
His level of intellectual curiosity and calm rationality was, and still is, a threat to the mainstream narrative.
The fact he's black meant he couldn't be attacked the same way anyone else with his views is.
@@timeweston
Well, "they're" giving up on the pretense now. Just look at all the despicable things they've come out and said regarding Justice Thomas and Eric July: when the light is shown on them they always revert back to their old tricks.
it's because since Jan 2021 Thomas SowellTV channel has been publishing clips of interviews going back well over a decade. The titles of the clips are related to social, political, and economic issues that are relevant today. That is why the YT algorithm has produced more links to Sowell's work than ever before. The ABOUT tab on the channel says: "Enjoy the best of Dr. Thomas Sowell. We use the work of Dr. Sowell to debunk cultural narratives."
keynesian economics created the largest , broadest economy the world has ever seen .the austrian economists like hayek freidman and sowell shrink the middle class and blow up poverty. but instead of having a conversation about class its a fight between the woke and the anti-woke.
Two of the smartest, well-spoken, insightful guys on YT regarding movie commentary and the current plight of the industry. Thank you so much, Clifton and CD, you guys should do this again someday!
Clifton nails the Hero's Journey. I had the same reaction to the first rebooted Star Wars film. The original trilogy was written with a growth-mindset at its core: Luke is a nobody who battles his way to the top, and even then it's not certain he will win. The Force Awakens is written for people with a fragile, fixed-mindset, which is why Rey must demonstrate innate superiority at the first opportunity. The whole film is a vanity mirror for gender ideologues.
Yeah, I didn't realize it at first, but Kylo losing to Rey was the critical moment that meant the trilogy wasn't going to work. That managed to ruin both the hero *and* the villain in one scene, and for no reason. If they're going to escape due to a convenient crevasse, Kylo could have been about to win the fight, which would have made him more threatening and given Rey something to work towards in the next movie. But no, Rey just had to be perfect from the beginning. (That would be fine if she was supposed to be the Paragon -- the Gandalf or Dumbledore -- but that's clearly not her role.)
Yeah it's just god aweful writing. It's about maturity. Thinking "it's cool" when the hero does everything perfectly is how a 5 year old would try to write a story. Aren't these adults?
@@paulpena5040 I don't think it's impossible to write a good movie that way. Like a Bond movie, or certain kinds of comedies, it could work. But it's definitely a bad idea for a *trilogy* -- and particularly for a Star Wars trilogy.
@@pfeilspitze True there is a place for "fluff" entertainment. Bond is like action porn. But even in that franchise he makes mistakes and has to adjust - Look at Casino Royale where he lost more than 1 hand of poker to Leschiffe and gets visibly agitated. Yet even in that universe the secret agent had tons of training which at least makes it somewhat believable. But REY, she is just perfect from day one. And even her motivations are not compelling or clear.
The most obvious example for me would be the live action Mulan.
The animated Mulan was exactly the perfect hero's journey. It triggers wish fulfilment, you want to emulate Mulan dedication to overcoming her flaws for her family and then country.
The new live action version, she's BORN special. It was always her destiny to succeed.
I fuckin love it when 2 intelligent people are in the same room talking about movies🤟😎
"They can put in all kinds of racial minorities, sexual minorities, or whatever. It's not going to make a difference if they're not going back to the core root of who humanity is." Very well-said! The great 19th Century French Reactionary, Joseph de Maistre, once quipped of the Rights of Man, "In my lifetime, I have seen French, Italians, Russians, etc. Thanks to Montesquieu, I even know that one can be Persian. But as for Man, I declare that I have never in my life met him. If he exists, he exists unknown to me." The modern Left, ironically, has come full round to de Maistre's way of thinking in identity politics, albeit without the wit that makes de Maistre a joy to read.
de Maistre in a YT comment section -- fantastic!
@@Ahabite Thanks!
Yum y B guy G g B
I came for the Drinker and found a new subscription. Hello Mr. Duncan! This conversation was absolutely fantastic. Do it again please. Just awesome.
Read up on Clifton! Incredible singer (Broadway musicals) that left the industry on top of his game. He is fantastic!
The other actor they auditioned for The Graduate was Robert Redford. There was also a story that Mike Nichols asked him how he would react to getting turned down by a girl and Redford didn't understand the question.
Wow
Too bad your story is false.
both actors were too old. ... or does Dustin Hoffman just look older than he should.
@@nuckygulliver9607 I feel like people used to look way older in general. Our lives are twice as long now but feature less than half the growth/experience of previous generations.
@@docsavage8640 Proof?
Taylor Swift becoming "political" was nothing more than her audition for Hollywood Executives. She wants that sweet, sweet Hollywood acting career. Sure, she can't act, but that has never stopped us before!
She can't write songs and doesn't have much of a singing voice and that didn't stop a music career when her daddy pulled some strings.
@@docsavage8640 filtered
@@docsavage8640 Her songs all sound like novelty songs. And not good ones like Weird Al's either
@@docsavage8640 isn't her dad a stock broker? Just how does a stock broker from Pennsylvania pull strings in the Music Industry?
You have no idea what you're talking about. She was worth a bazillion dollars when she went woke after being beaten down by the constant "Taylor's silence on [woke agenda item du jour] is deafening!" hit pieces. The irony is that when she sold out to woketardedness, she claimed that previously she was doing what she was told, but now she's her own person. Right. She became what was demanded of her and now she's authentic.
I figured that her flipping woke and flipping off her country base would wreck her, but nope. The old fans stuck by Tay Tay and the new fans for her pop dreck (other than 1989; that album is a banger) have combined to make her the top-selling live tour ever, selling out football stadiums for multiple nights and grossing nearly $600M.
But sure, she wants to get some Hollywood money. /rolleyes
Conflict is what is missing. True and meaningful Conflict. The kind that changes you. The kind that costs you to face. The hard cold Conflict that breaks you, only for the question to be asked will you rise up and face it? Or are we going to cower away from any conflicts because of its very nature to inspire that change? At my workplace (leftist dominant) they wrote me up for insubordination because I asked questions but their answers never made sense. Questions lead to Conflict, so it's unsafe work environment and that can't happen in a work place... sigh... so I quit to find something better, let's hope it's another chapter in my personal journey. Thanks for another great video
I hope you find a place that allow you to add value to their organization as opposed to punish you for asking questions.
and you hit the nail on the head with the stories now. these screenwriters are mostly all coddled from birth and were raised in a culture where you just ghost people if the situation becomes uncomfortable. Nobody has to engage when conflict happens they just avoid it ... so they're not learning or growling and their stories are lacking in any real drama or villains worth watching. Evil is just evil works for some simple stories but growing up avoiding legitimate conflicts has given these people nothing to pull from so their writing is inauthentic and forced and the characters don't really seem to behave like real people in their situations should or would. It all feels insanely shallow and sad.
Just Re-watched this episode... LOVE YOU BOTH! 🍷🧐🎩
So nice to see Drinker say "Top Gun might make $1 Billion" and to see that it has now blasted beyond $1 Billion that still has a lot left in the tank.
Absolutely correct. 41:54 I want to emphasize the point Duncan is making here. There will absolutely be a "reflexive rejection" from audiences when it comes to this subject. His phrase is so eloquent and perfect, I am going use it. However, this reflexive rejection is very much alive at this point. How many here did not watch The Last Jedi, or Lightyear, or will not watch the LotR Amazon show, because we knew ahead they would be woke? We are already rejecting this nonsense and even the new Top Gun is evidence of it. Excellent show guys, loved every second of it!
I've been skipping new releases for a while. At best you get a good story for the first forty odd minutes then BAM!!!! The train wreck occurs. It's best to wait for the reviews to decide if you're going to watch something.
I watched them just to be objective when giving praise or criticism. Lately, there has been a lot of criticism.
Totally agree. I caught myself watching something the other day (can't remember what it was) and as soon as a black actress came on screen I had an automatic 'oh here we go' reaction. And it completely caught me off guard. Prior to all this woke nonsense, it wouldn't mean a thing to me- I would be eager to see the talent of the actor, how their character fit into the story etc. And now it's just 'theres the diversity hire'. And I was upset with myself that I have started to be subconsciously influenced like this. I think in one way it's why I like revisiting older works, because if there's a non-white person in it, they're just there because they're talented and important to the story. I absolutely agree this reflexive rejection is going on right now.
@@katthunter6561: It's a serious disservice to women and/or minority characters. In the past they were characters who had flaws, failed, made mistakes and became awesome as a result of struggling as much as the white men. Now they're perfect from word go and totally boring. Identity aside characters need flaws and struggle to be good.
@@katthunter6561 Absolutely. I never gave a second thought to anyone that appeared on screen. A good example for me is the Walking Dead. I was deep into that show and mixed cast meant nothing to me. Now the show is woke, I don’t watch it now but it’s obvious many characters have been added for diversity points and not telling the story.
Pretty sure this was recommended because I am subbed to Drinker. That being said, my dude, you are INCREDIBLY well spoken. I really enjoyed this conversation and will be subbing and keeping an eye on your channel. My best wishes for your success!
same
Yep. Subscribing.
"People aim for timeliness, not timelessness." I love that.
Duncan is an actor, Drinker is a writer... you guys should make a movie.
Duncan can forget about acting. No serious company would hire this guy if he talks to white supremacist nazi like drinker.
This was great, an actor talking to a writer. I followed Drinker for ages now, but had no idea he's an author. Great work!
His books are action-packed. Well Worth a read.
He links his books on his videos
I was surprised to find that out too, because I knew him first as The Critical Drinker. Then I remembered his video on how to improve the ending of Game of Thrones and it all made sense. The depth and level of understanding he had on character development, pacing and plot progression, and ultimately conflict resolution would've been too knowledgeable for anyone who wasn't already an experienced writer.
Great conversation. It's refreshing to listen to adults speak.
stop hanging around children, weirdo
Strong female character. Hmm. Was watching The African Queen on TV a couple of weeks ago. 1951. 71 years ago. Rose Sayer, played by Katharine Hepburn is a woman who knows her own mind but develops and softens as does her counterpart played by Humphrey Bogart. She faces the jungle, the river and even execution with dignity and courage and eventually helps to destroy an enemy ship. Strong female character who has an engaging story arc.
...ok...cool.
There is an interesting connecting theme of "hurting someone by mindlessly thinking you are 'helping' them" in your two examples from the acting world. The first one you mentioned were actors introducing themselves by everyone having to state their pronouns, and the second was actors from "marginalized groups" being given undeserved awards/roles/etc by a guilt-ridden entertainment industry. Considering the second one first, you've seen the backlash from audiences that occurs against those actors, and being known for huge controversy - for example, consider Kelly Marie Tran's waning star, among others - will kill a future career like nothing else. In the case of the pronoun situations, the damage is done through reinforcing or creating mental phobias in people, through a psychological process called "operant conditioning". The insidious thing about "operant conditioning" is that it is not only negative experiences, but _positive_ ones as well, that can instill or exacerbate a phobia. Somehow this danger from "positive" experiences gets overlooked, even though everyone knows that - for example - a person with a fear of leaving their house does not get better by staying inside for months, but only becomes more fearful and sick even as they don't have to deal with the potential emotional terror of being outside. The same thing happens to people who fear someone saying the wrong thing to them - they are not made more comfortable by being coddled by the world. In actual fact, their discomfort only increases. And left untreated, phobias can lead to thoughts of suicide, substance abuse, mood disorders, depression, and other illnesses, especially if events occur to reinforce the fear response (again, this includes *positive* reinforcement events such as avoidance of fearful situations). Validating a person's fear is not kindness; it is unthinkable cruelty masquerading as simple-minded altruism.
Ultimately, altruism can easily become pathological - or maladaptive might be a better description for it - at both the personal and the societal level, and "good intentions" will end up meaning nothing when you mindlessly destroy the human being that you hoped you were saving.
@@CliftonADuncan You know my honest opinion. Black men aren't doing enough for their own industry so you have 2 different bases clashing with each other. Can you image where we would be if black men were creating fantasy and horror and arthouse films and video games simultaneously. for their audiences just as Asians were doing the same keeping up with America? You completely neglected to foster a market that could've been there by 2022. You would have a gaming studio or animation by now. Tyler Perry has his own studio. Instead you have black men being complaining of these forced groups when it falls on YOUR shoulders to make sure that an industry is there for black women in entertainment.
@@CliftonADuncan I can't take you seriously if Madea is the biggest thing for African Americans. You wasted all those years post Blaxploitation doing nothing but begging for seats at tables that were made for a handful like Denzel, Will Smith, and Eddie Murphy. The legacy for black Hollywood isn't there.
@@williampearson6299 Blah blah, he is not the savior of black men, wtf is these comments? Yaull are so damn dull and off of the point. Why does it have to be " All black everything", just shut up and do your part, if you happen to be black then bonus points but no one gives a damn. Now go sing some R Kelly, believe you can fly or somethin ffs.
I passionately agree with at least 95% of what the Critical Drinker says in every video he makes. His finger is most definitely on the pulse. Living legend.
Brilliant, insightful and smart commentary...both...spot on in so many ways. As someone who works in the industry. We reward the least talented and give the organ grinders the keys to the car and are we surprised when it crashes and burns.
16:42...... you just described Henry Cavill on the set of the Witcher. Which is why people love him and despise the showrunners who, by and large, hate the source material.
Engaging, fast-paced, free-wheeling interview with the Critical Drinker that delves into the hyper-identity consciousness and other maladies in modern popular cinema 📽️ and theater 🎭.
TS and VDH brilliant thinkers 👍🏼
It seems movies have become a struggle session for the audience instead of the audience witnessing the struggles and triumph of the protagonist.
Many writers today aim for ‘timeliness, rather than timelessness’. A spot on observation. There needs to be more attention paid to archetypal stories and story structure, these are the stories, films, books, etc, that will resonate down the ages.
Artistic creativity does not necessarily require experience. It requires research and imagination. Actors understand this better than most. The poor quality of movies today says more about the business interests that control the industry than about the actual filmmakers.
Follow the Drinker, bought his books and watched this just due to his involvement. Now I found Mr. Duncan and need to catch up on his posts.
I was a "theater kid" all throughout high school and my freshman year of college. I sang the male lead portion of our choral rendition of "Seasons of Love" and played the role of Ligniere in our troupe performance of Cyrano. But I dropped out of college after a year and a half to pursue a military career, and I'm very glad I did so. To see the utterly Babylonian state of the theater industry from the outside in, and to think that I could have been a part of that apparatus if I'd stayed the course, still give me shudders to think about. The price of my soul and humanity is higher than what the Gomorrites of Hollywood offer.
I was born of this generation and my parents always show me older movies, especially my Dad who showed me The Last Starfighter years ago and I was just in love with that movie. You don't really get that feeling much out of the movies of my generation because they're either made to check boxes or they are made out of spite. It's because of movies like the new Jurassic World that's causing me to write my own screenplay, It's crazy how some 19 year old typing on google docs can try to come up with a better story than The largest movie make in the world.
Good luck. It shouldn't be too hard to top the terrible scripts of most movies today.
With luck, and the right attitude, you could certainly become a success. If the industry of (at best) mediocre identitarian hacks lets you...
Awesome
@Ali Chaudhry It's not that I'm being lazy, it's just that those indie films are far off from Hollywoood. I'm sure there are good indie films, but you have to go through certain hoops to find them.
Keep going dude. I started on the same task when I was your age. I'm 42 and still have yet to complete one of my, oh....16 projects or so. I don't think I'll ever be done but I've learned what not to do.
.
I'm not gonna claim to have the best advice and take it ot leave it if you want, but one thing I have learned about any creative endeavor is that the most important thing is just GET SOMETHING DOWN. Even if it sucks, just get it out. You can always go back and edit. You will never, never get perfection right out of the gate. So, fuck it! Let your imagination run wild and just crank those wild visions out.
Best wishes and I hope to see your name in the credits of something mind blowing. Dream big, motherfucker!
Thank you, Bad Connection, for restoring my faith in the younger generation.
I showed The Last Starfighter to some Gen Z's in my family. They didn't get it at all. I was heartbroken. You've given me hope for the future.
My two crushes sharing a screen! So much intelligence, wit and thoughtful reflection. More, please.
I love how proper this guy is. "Mr. Drinker" "Mr. Fist." That's so endearing
Clifton, there was a mention of Cary Grant and a comparison of how actors today conduct themselves so differently versus his era...which makes this quote from Mr. Grant particularly apropos:
"I'm opposed to actors taking sides in public and spouting spontaneously about love, religion or politics. We aren't experts on these subjects. Personally I'm a mass of inconsistencies when it comes to politics. My opinions are constantly changing. That's why I don't ever take a public stand on issues."
- Cary Grant
Subbed 10!
I saw Critical come up from nothing really, a real early subscriber...this is first rate what the internet should be, this level of philosophy where art, society and culture are discussed and compared by smart people that can talk and listen deeply to each other, all the while regaling an audience with such depth interest and mutual respect.
We need more of this as the corporates become diluted watered down vanilla.
I'm glade to see drinker, gray, and razor first getting more attention from other creators
Will mentioned Rocky and going the distance. It made me think of Carl Weathers, who was a key supporting actor in that film
Well said - modern films and tv series suffer from terrible scripts by terrible scriptwriters... great visuals, fx, actors and directors cannot fix a bad story repeating everything done before it and inputing modern values. Where are the good scriptwiters??? As Robin Green said "Repetition is the death of art."
There seems to be a block package of writing like it’s a framework given to these woker-drone writers like a call centre script.
They have to weave a story around:
-Straight white men are incompetent
-The bad guy is Trump
-All black women can do “science”
-Anti-colonialisation messaging
-A female character is the key to everything
It’s like one of those Nacho kits you get but you have to add your own ‘Star Trek’ or ‘Indiana Jones’ flavour to it.
Very true!
A white male character can be portrayed positively, as long as he's on program with "the message," he's "one of the good ones." He must accept transgenderism as legitimate and support brave women standing against "the patriarchy."
Sometimes, the bad guy is Elon or Bill Gates.
There must be a girl boss character. Girl bosses take no Ls and always win no matter what, be it in a social situation with coworkers, or a hand to hand combat against professional fighters. They really need to push the idea that women are fit to lead in every aspect of life, not because of qualifications or their righteousness of character, but by dint of gender.
Wait, didn't I just describe sexism?
Yes. There's so many checkboxes to tick now compared to movies 10-30 years ago. I mean the og star wars films seems to only have one checkbox - "Fun". Compared to what you have now.
I don't have issues if they want to represent diversity and other woke messages but make it quality or don't overshadow the fun. Also don't keep using established well loved franchises to keep on doing it e.g Dr Who, Star Wars, the 2022 predator etc.
@@zogwort1522 interesting. Could you name some examples?
To what you mentioned about black actors now hired for diversity points above all else, unlike the past where actors were more assured of their worth, it reminded me of a recent interview on The Unspeakable. Daum was interviewing the choreographer Lincoln Jones who does not play the diversity points game, and you got a spot in his company on your abilities alone. The reasons he gave for this were two fold. First it would create disharmony and resentment in the troupe if people were given positions based on immutable characteristics alone. This is important for a company. Second and really important is for the person who gets the position based on ESG points for a grant he or she, no matter how much they achieve, will always at the back of their mind wonder was it just this one characteristic that got me here or was it truly my abilities and hard work. That undermines people's sense of self and joy in achievement so much.
WJ has brought me to tears sometimes with his commentary. He loves movies / shows / stories as much as I do and he's able to point out the things that are being destroyed in them and how that affects and deprives the culture. I really appreciate him.
I remember a scene from the original Matrix movie where Agent Smith, I think it was, was telling Neo that the first iteration of the Matrix was all rainbows and unicorns and it collapsed. It was a failure. We need adversity, we need reality to smack us in the face, otherwise, it's not believable, it's not real. Sci-fi and fantasy are great, any story is great, but only if it is grounded in some archetypical foundation. Something that we as humans understand to be a fundamental foundation of who we are. So much of the stuff being produced today has none of that.
It was the architect in the 2nd movie. I too always think about that scene.
Nailed it Duncan, the writers are completely isolated from the basic human experience.
"Grit" is a perfect word to use. One reason I love watching the first series or 2 of Heartbreak High (Australian teen drama from the 90s when I was young) is cause it was gritty - it wasn't afraid to have rascism in it, because it reflected real life. And Rocky is an immense film, again gritty showing him living in a dump and striving to be better. I p[ersonally am not even interested in all these action hero movies, they all just look exactly the same and have uninteresting actors/actresses in them - and I actually really enjoyed the cartoons as a child. Great conversation Clifton
Clifton, have you considered recording audiobooks? I think your voice would be great for narration. A great narrator is key to enjoying an audiobook. Perhaps you can do voices too...
I came here for his whisky-smooth voice and stayed for the intelligent convos.
Dude voice is exceptional and so is his intellect
Clifton has a perfect radio voice.
I see the Drinker, I click.
Duncan nailed it. There are so many movies I have watched because actor\actress "X" was in it. Even if it sucks, I will like watching him\her. But none of them are new movies.
Sort of gone the other way too: more actors I won’t watch because I’m tired of being lectured by them
Back in the old days of video stores I'd rent movies I'd never heard of just because they had Al Pacino or someone good like that in them. Nowadays I just avoid movies BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT AN ACTOR'S CAREER, usually due to his history of political lectures.
I wish this was 2 more hours
Great interview. UA-cam is not sending out notifications though, so I missed the live stream. Come on UA-cam don't bury this channel
@@CliftonADuncan I should still get a notification when you release a video I thought. Sorry I don’t trust UA-cam to not interfere with you
What he said at 16:50 reminds me of a Rob Alger video about Dirty Harry. Scorpio wasn’t hired to because people liked him, he was hired because Clint Eastwood thought that he, in particular his eyes, made an expressive contrast to his own character in the film. What I find interesting is that Scorpio also was able to ad lib and improv many of his scenes in the film as well.
Watched Trading Places for the first time yesterday and loved it, those older movies just FEEL different in a way I can't explain.
Those older movies were just written in ways that were above the heads of the average movie watcher. Written by professional crafters of stories. Today the average movie goer can sit there in the theatre and pick out major plot holes and think of a million ways the writers could have gone to make more sense than what was released. Insults to our intelligence were more rare of an occurrence back then.
That's really weird, it was one of the 1st movies that popped into my head when I was thinking about how great movies used to be.
Trading places is an underrated comedy. It's serious at times but knows how to remain mostly funny.
@@Lonovavir absolutely. Watching Winthorpe decay in his poverty comes to mind. Amazing acting.
It's because the characters feel real. They are individual, unique, and imperfect. Another good example I often come back to is the original "Ghostbusters". Every character and actor delivers an original and unique performance that is full of life and joy. Most movies fail to have such real humanity today. In part, because of the world that has created shallow actors, but also because a script and movie are so scrutinized and homogenized by the system to never cause offense, that the chance for anything real, new, or original is also drained away.
Had the opportunity to recommend your podcast the other day, and I am happy to report that we are still on speaking terms. Keep up the good work.
Loved this podcast. Especially baby with the bath water analogy.
I’m a massive hp lovecraft fan. I’ve read his short stories/books, seen some shitty b-level movies (and some great ones) about his works specifically, but also a massive amount of horror which was influenced by him. Alien, evil dead, the thing, prince of darkness, ghostbusters, even horizon, the mist, It…..all influenced by lovecraft.
However, people have openly challenged me about it. “He was a racist, so how could you support him?”. My goodness, like 3/4 of the world was racist a hundred years ago. Everyone hated everyone, and it wasn’t until modern times (last 50 years, probably even 30) that we all started dropping many misconceptions about other humans based off their skin colour or culture.
But does that mean We should just throw away all the works of the man who is literally the grandfather of modern horror, who influenced an entire generation? I don’t think so.
Celebrate the good things about them. Learn from their bad points/flaws and do better in our day to day lives.
Lovecraft was writing during the Jim Crow era, when lynchings were a regular occurrence, north and south. These idiots need to watch some movies filmed in the 20s and 30s and see how the black characters were treated in film contemporary to Lovecraft; they'd find out what real racism looks like.
If they'd read his stories they'd have a hard time finding more than a few racist remarks, nine of which affect the story.
Well this was a lovely surprise notification on my phone!
Great discussion with two great minds.
Fantastic conversation! Thank you so much, Clifton and Will (The Drinker).
Another excellent conversation. I'm not surprised at your 5 ⭐️ Spotify ratings. Well deserved! 🥂
An excellent conversation between two intelligent individuals. Thank you gentlemen, an hour was not long enough with such insightful conversation.
You're killing it, with these long form discussions, Clifton.
All the best, from northern England.
i´m on a binge of the old classics lately.. my god, the disparity in quality, writing and character depth is down right painful.
This was an excellent podcast. I’m a fan of the drinker and decided to watch for him. I got a lot out of this. I myself want to write and create and put work out there. I run a DnD game I’m very proud of and would love to adapt it. As someone who wants to put work out there I am becoming more conscientious about what my work says. I want to put stories out there that tell the audience that heroes are real, that life is worth living and can be improved, albeit slowly and piece by piece, that the high road is worth walking, difficult as it may be, that there is light at the end of struggle, and that just because you don’t get what you want, doesn’t mean life is abysmal.
I wouldn’t say I came out of this podcast learning things I didn’t know, but it’s helping me to consider them more deeply, and the two of you being very well spoken helped but into words, thoughts I knew I had but couldn’t quite vocalize.
I want look more into learning from the classics, understanding what makes something timeless, how much of myself and focus I should put into the espousement of philosophy and world view, the importance of having friction and disagreement with my collaborators, the importance of diversity of thought in collaboration, giving diverse people a spotlight without pandering or tokenizing, or walking on egg shells.
I think I’m on the right track to make good and worthwhile entertainment. But I want to dig deeper and double down on making things worthy of standing the test of time, whether they do so or not.
I gave up on new movies, we get maybe one good one a year by mistake. Thank you for the Siskel and ebert idea, good way to find old movies
Same here, I started looking up best hit lists from prior decades. The "new" films are either reboots of them anyway or too safe.
I watched this video because of Critical Drinker. I think he’s incredibly insightful & funny in a sarcastic vein. I subscribed because you’ve got so much interesting insight to offer. Your intelligence and institutional knowledge was awesome. You were great together & Iook forward to more of your video’s
The first video of the drinker I ever watched was the hilarious female gaming rant, whilst simultaneously showing clips of badass female gaming characters over decades, since the 80s. Hooked me
More convos between you two please! Two people with passion & experience in the universe of storytelling! More, more, more!
YES YES YES and YES!!!!! Thank you to the BOTH of you!!!! Two of my favorite people right here!!! THANK YOU!!!
Drinker's really been making the rounds! Happy for his channels success! Always great to watch and have a laugh and ponder his insights into story telling.
Great conversation! I was an early subscriber for both of you. Your interview skills are really starting to shine. You reference so many interesting books, you should provide some links in your descriptions. Some links to your guest's works would be a bonus as well.
@@CliftonADuncan
It's a great idea... you're an extremely well read and erudite cat... links to some of these books being brought up by you and your guests would be great reference material.
Keep up the fantastic work!
So spot on; glad to see the world isn't completely blind to what's going on.
"There's just no edge about you anymore"
This is going to be a weird example but even Animal Crossing has this problem. Yes it's a "baby game" etc. etc. but I find it very relaxing to play. In the older games some of the villagers would be straight up ***holes. There would be pushy salesmen characters, and if you forgot to save you'd be forced to click through a bunch of aggressive dialogue from Resetti.
None of this exists now. All of the villagers love you all the time, Resetti's been retired, and the villagers don't feel as real anymore.
🤣🤣🤣 lol that silly analogy..but yeah, it got uber.babyfied
still like it tho
I suspect movies are disposable now because instead of presenting the world as they perceive it (as their contemporary audiences would), they present a world as they perceive it should be.
Suspension of disbelief can only take so much and so many plot holes.
Douglas Murray, then the Critical Drinker… never saw that coming! Bravo Mr Duncan 👍
I'd love to see a part 2 to this! This is a team up that explores the heart of the real issues. It's interesting too, I was just talking with my partner today about how it's the lack of real life experience that has stunted these milk toast writers. There's no substance to what they're doing because they're vapid hollow shells of the elitist world that they so prolifically try to undermine and destroy. This isn't even an age thing its more a matter of not having to grind to be the better writer, actor, or whatever. This the decline of true characterization within our entertainment all caught up in a veil of self importance. Good stream!
I just watched "Leon, the professional" and it's still fantastic. So much better than the junk coming out today. That's why Top Gun Maverick is so popular, it's a real movie, and not political propaganda .
I rewatched Nikita recently and felt the same. But then I rewatched The Fifth Element and I was like, uhh well this one still sucks. Oh well, Nikita and Leon were good!
Top Gun Maverick IS political, as the first one was.
An amazing example of an older movie that has an agenda but is still good is BORN on the Fourth of July. That movie is an example of how to make an amazing movie with great acting and characters that just so happens to have an agenda. Nowadays, movies have an agenda and just so happen to have good characters here and there and good acting.
Now this was an outstanding podcast interview. Well done!👍🏾👍🏾
this is my new favourite podcast
That’s pretty much it right there in that opening sentence. Some of the best sci fi and fantasy ever for example, Planet Of The Apes, Seven Days In May, The Twilight Zone, all created by Rod Serling: a man carrying the emotional scars of fighting the Japanese in WWII and witnessing his best friend’s violent accidental death. But he was also a deeply well read and literate man. Education and life experience. You can’t supplement these things.
Critical Drinker is the man. Spot on!
Quoting the great Patrice O’Neal is an instant sub for me, few people understood the industry like he did so early. Excellent convo guys, you both do great work.
Fantastic conversations about the problem with modern movies.
Just read, re-read rather, CS Lewis's TILL WE HAVE FACES. It was like watching a film while reading it. Why hasn't someone given this a film treatment??
Absolutely critical point from Critical Drinker about how many of those in the creative team for the original Trek series were military veterans and had LIFE EXPERIENCE. That maturity and experience is quite obvious in the finished episodes, especially compared to tv episodes created today by people who seem to have no real world experience in anything...!
This is the creator crossover I never expected, but never realized I needed. Drinker's reviews and assessments of modern media are always spot on.
tremendous episode; love these two guys' deep knowledge and passion for film and the broader arts, and their deep understanding of story architecture. so fun listening to duncan mock the absurdity of modern 'star wars', abandoning the hero's journey, etc. keep up the great work.
What a sobering conversation!
No pun intended!
I came here from the Drinker and I am not disappointed! I'll be going through your catalog and looking forward to more in the future! Subbed!
"You know when you’re searching for the Lost Ark of the Covenant or the Holy Grail that you’re dealing with quests. Take away Indy’s leather jacket, fedora, and whip and give him chain mail, helmet, and lance and see if he doesn’t look considerably like Sir Gawain." -Thomas C. Foster
I am loving these conversations Clifton. Keep it up, and you'll reach Drinker levels of subs. Believe it.
Grand Budapest Hotel. Still some good movies being made.
Honestly the best podcast with Drinker I have seen. Really loved listening to you two interact. Hope you do more together.
So much of this is class based. I spoke to a lawyer in Hollywood several years ago. And he told me how the industry was becoming much more monolithic. They are very loathe to bring in unvetted outsiders. So you have a growing echo chamber of upperclass writers/producers who, like Critical Drinker said, have very little life experience. These people are talking about privilege non-stop, yet will never address their own. So many of the great comedies dealt with class: Meatballs, Caddyshack, Blues Brothers, Animal House, even Wedding Crashers to a degree. Where are the great comedies? The upperclass aren't gonna write them.
Thank you Clifton, as always you have given us a gem of a show. Disclaimer, found you through FNT. Love you work, your intelligent discourse, and your widely varied selection of intelligent and interesting guests. Thank you. Greetings from the land down under.