I think we did, but lost them to all the nonsense. I would have no problem with bi men in the spaces either. Gay men born male? Just gay men. Trans men who like men aren’t gay men. They’re trans men who use to be straight or bi women. Sexual orientation is based on a person’s sex not how they choose to “identify.” Why are we changing the definition of what a gay man is?
the mind boggles that this question even needs to be asked, although i will admit i am even more alarmed by the number of people who get so triggered by the idea. any group of people with struggles unique to them for one reason or another for instance, benefit from having their own spaces, support groups and networks and the like. if you are not a gay man, you cannot and should not impose yourself where gay men want their own spaces because duh there is that common denominator. its even more ludicrous if it pertains to a reality and experience you can only have, and know, if you are say, a gay man. i'm not sure when people decided that its wrong, a bad thing, mean even, to acknowledge certain distinctions. this was a lovely discussion, happy to see your subscriber count is growing!
@@ladytia1306agreed. It’s a shame how it went from you’re born this way to well gender is a social construct so sexual orientation doesn’t matter, oh and if you’re gay you should be encouraged to sleep with members of the opposite sex cause homos*xuality isn’t diverse enough and doesn’t really exist. Gender ideology is extremely homophobic in its nature.
Hi Jack - as an older Irish gay man myself, I am totally and utterly convinced and I firmly and passionately believe and maintain that we as gay men who were born male must have spaces that are exclusively gay male only, even if this means having secretive or closeted gay male only spaces, as it used to be when being gay was once illegal, which many older gay men in my teens in the 1980’s strongly argued in favour of, as it afforded them a certain level of protection and safety from homophobic “gay bashing” attacks, even at the risk of “fetishising” Gay shame or the ideas around being gay being illegal - in fact, given the many ways in which gay male identity is under increasingly vicious and all-encompassing forms of attack of all kinds from all sides in our current era of LGBT visibility, legalisation and a fake illusion of LGBT “equality” having our own exclusive spaces where we can be truly ourselves and secure in our identity as gay men without judgement, hatred and discrimination, even from within the wider LGBT community, is not just essential, it is utterly vital - many gay men, including older gay men like myself, feel alienated and excluded from the wider LGBT community in its current form
I am a 55 year old (formerly) progressive former ally from San Francisco, and I heard about the stonewall riots and the Compton cafe riots before that my entire life. But it wasn’t until recent years that the narrative suddenly changed and suddenly it was Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P Clark that supposedly started it all. And they were no longer drag queens, but instead they were a term that hadn’t yet existed at that time. The story went that drag queens and gay men were already upset about Judy Garland’s passing, then the raid happened and it sent them over the edge. Frankly I can’t see a lot of T’s reacting like that to Judy Garland passing, as they don’t tend to have fabulous taste.
The "Judy Garland" thing itself is a myth - it came from an article written about the Stonewall uprising in the Village Voice, the point of which was to mischaracterise and belittle the motivations of the riot into "those damn queens upset about something trivial". It's utterly bizarre that much of the community now accepts this homophobic "fake news" as true and something to celebrate. Likewise, the drive to place Marsha as the central figure of our "creation myth" is motivated partly by homophobia - putting a clownish figure as leading the riots - often the story is told as being a "drag kick line". All of it serves the same purpose - our civil rights struggle was something frivolous and unserious.
So because YOU can't see trans people reacting against a police state, that means it can't be true? And therefore you're absolved from attributing any of your present day freedoms to them. Well it is a fact. It Did happen. Have you found some research proving otherwise?
@@incoglido Marsha P Clark was interview more then once and said she didn't get to stonewall until after the riot. It's easy to find these interviews on youtube(Im sure trans activist will fight for it's removal) and Sylvia may have been there, im not sure but from the stories of people there it started off with people throwing change at the police. Blasting the po po with pennies. lol Also I believe Marsha described themselves as a cross dresser. You can't just trans people after death, that's silly.
@@MH-bw9ztI disagree. There was so much acceptance before all the trans stuff. Nobody cared that you were gay. Now unfortunately, it's linked to all the weird crimes committed by the TQ.
That and whatever the hell those other letters are. None of these people are gay, or if they are it's incidental. Their lives and problems are nothing to do with ours. And plenty of us don't appreciate their politics. We carried actual transsexual people on our bandwagon in the past when they were long-established part of our community, and more importantly weren't nuts! The people who've been transsexual for many years generally aren't down with this nonsense. I was going to say "older transgender people" but then that would also cover 50 year old mid-life crisis fetishists who've been "women" for 5 minutes but feel well entitled to shout down the mere womb-havers who wouldn't know anything about it. If you don't get turned on dressing in your own clothes, if you don't go to work in full lingerie, stockings and suspenders, then you're hardly a woman at all, are you?
It's very exhausting and scary being threatened with r aype, court cases, fire b0mbs and d3@th when standing up to these sociopathic Trenders who are mostly straight people trying to be part of a 'fun' group or AGP predators. They're next level cultists!!!
Oh, we can be, and we are. There's so much establishment and no small amount of law trying to shut us up. But most of the public don't agree with gender nonsense. They're not addicted to kool-aid and cheap affirmation. We're getting somewhere here in the UK, and the backlash is coming, yes, even in "Tranada" Canada! Simply you can't fool all the people all of the time. And people are rightly pissed off about self-ID and transing kids, and there's no talking people around on that. Hence the endless TRA argument of "shut up! you're a transphobe! let's beat up the women and kill you with knives!" There are, though, fetishists in high places. Politicians seem under-informed and just want to be on the "right side of history", not really thinking it through, accepting this as just another "gay rights" thing, so they push it through because that worked in the past. It doesn't make sense to them, they don't agree with it, but it was expedient in the past, so let's do it now. But we massively outnumber the "movement", and we're actually right, and sane. That still carries some weight, though less than it used to in a world with Twitter and Facebook in it. But then Mumsnet in the UK is TERF-Base Alpha, our arguments took root there, among ordinary mums. They can take root in ordinary people. I think ordinary people see problems with this gender ideology, but don't want to be bigots, and don't have the time to devote to thinking it through. So if we make our arguments well-known, they can consider those. We're also aided by the transgender nutcases themselves, who can't stop from provoking outrage on purpose, or through the crazy things they actually believe and want. They're peaking the normies at a rate of knots. So all is far from lost! Rasputin took a lot of killing, but they got him in the end!
I'm a gay living in Texas the vast majority of Republicans don't care if any1 is gay but the T movemen/activism is an issue for most. and 4 myself a bit as well
Texas is so backwards that they make women carry dead fetuses because they are so pro life. They don't believe in feeding poor kids either. Of course they don't tell gays how much they hate them, southerners like to be polite, but look at the elected officials. The people are just as hateful as the people they send to congress, and no they don't think "normal" gays are the good ones. 🙄
The problem is the gay community is no longer the gay community. I remember back in the day when the homosexual community was just referred to as the gay community. The whole problem started when the homosexual females wanted the L added for lesbians. I was one of those who warned if we allow this it will be a slippery slope and everyone will want their own letter. I was called a misogynist for feeling that way but the truth is I was right. The homosexual females got their L and then the G community became the LG community which is redundant when you think about it. Then the bisexuals wanted the B and since we already gave the homosexual females their own letter we were equally obligated to give the bisexual community their own letter and then the rest followed.
What's wrong with lesbians and bisexuals being in there? Most of the issues in gay men's lives also apply to lesbians and bisexuals too. We want the same things, we suffer the same problems. Sure "gay" can include lesbians and bisexuals, but it also has the specific meaning of homosexual men. The problem came about 10 years ago when a bunch of super-PC loonies wanted a civil rights war to fight, but couldn't find one. Gay marriage had been won. Transgender visibility increased massively in the media as the new story of the hour, and it made for interesting human interest stories. These people made an effort to portray themselves like us, just the gay rights battle all over again. And most of the public didn't care enough beyond "it's a bunch of perverts who want rights, we gave them all the other stuff, fine, we'll do it again now". Without thinking about what was being asked for. Which was very different from simple gay rights. As a result of the visibility, a lot of people who were merely transvestites, fetishists, talked each other into thinking this applied to them too, and they could have the fabulous ability to live their fetish 24/7 with people cheering them on! Imagine if the Germans gave people the right to crap on each other, which we know they greatly enjoy. But this time you're allowed to rub it in people's faces and un-teach kids their potty training. And anyone who says "would you mind?" gets fined 10,000 Euros. The thing you're talking about is just because "gay" also means "homosexual male", so was ambiguous to talk about women or bi people with. That's all. It wasn't divisive, or any more than it has to be, since women and men do of course have differences. It's the "me too!" and the idea that anyone can join onto our bandwagon that's the problem. Not lesbians getting recognised.
Watching the gender movement wedge themselves into the gay community has been really hard for me to accept. I was disowned from my family for 12 years after they found out I was living an actively gay life. The only reason I speak with them now is because my father and brother have passed away, and my mother has health problems, and she needs me around to help her. The females identifying as gay men and gay trans-masc are doing so because they want to be a part of a gay clique; they are like the modern version of a [woman that prefers to be friends with gay men over other woman]. But now instead of being wallflowers and our wing-women, they can engage with gay men the way gay men engage with each other. They found the 'work-around.' I accept there are bisexual people, but the gay men engaging with transmen and trans-masc people as more than platonic friends identify themselves as gay men - which validates what these females are doing. My own mother used to say to me "you just haven't met the right girl." The gay men accommodating these females into their lives as more than friends just may be proving my mother right after all. I've lost a lot of friends over this, but none of them we're treated nearly as dismissively and cruelly by their families when they came out as mine did. This is why this transman /trans-masc inclusion cuts me so deeply. Admitting I'm a homosexual was traumatic and costly; but now my own kind are telling me to change my views about females, because they can be gay men too simply by saying they are, and I must validate and celebrate that. I've often wondered how we got to this point today; how did we reach a point in our history where we would embrace females as gay men, and insist gay men "overcome their biased preferences" in order to accommodate females as partners. Maybe after gay marriage was won, and the general public's attitudes about homosexually shifted for the better, coupled with the rise of social media, it was inevitable. Gay bars and organizations have been shutting down at scale for years now. Maybe the gender movement is the only thing keeping what remains alive. Maybe the left needs this animosity as a scary boogeyman for the right? Maybe generation Z isn't that concerned with their sexuality because nobody really cares if they date or sleep with both sexes? Maybe being gay today is more about how you dress, the music you like, your esthetic and tastes, and your personality and attitude. If sexual orientation no longer determines whether one is gay, then what else does? Great discussion; thank you. Cheers!
There is a movement here in Australia where only females meet through word of mouth and only Gay guys make friendship groups through word of mouth which eliminates all the nutters and pervs, hefty/stressful court cases and unnecessary/offensive s3xu@l harassment. After spending over thirty years in gay and Les bars I'm convinced that these infiltrators are absolutely straight people trying to be part of some 'fun' club and can't say that they are either gay, les or bi because they're not and it's at the expense of us real LGB people who have had enough. I miss the old bars and freedoms.
Gay men need their own spaces like everyone else. Back in day London had a lot of various clubs like Heaven, XXL, GAY and many more. We had so much more choices than now.
Sometimes Drag as performance art is interesting but most of the time watching people dressing as an exaggerated woman and miming songs is just not interesting. I never understood why Gay culture is so obsessed with it. As a biological Gay man …. perhaps we can just be ourselves which is sometimes masculine and sometimes feminine. Just as some Gay men act more masculine than they are, many Gay men act more feminine than they are just to fit in to the Gay community ….. can we just be ourselves?
Ah, it's been part of gay culture for centuries, back in the Molly Houses and beyond. You don't have to dig it, but it's part of our culture, there's a lot of us, we can disagree on stuff. I can enjoy a decent drag act, often they tell jokes and stuff. Yeah just lip-synching I don't see the point of, either. But if somebody does, that's fine, plenty of popular culture I don't get. The important thing, is drag acts are... acts. They're acting. None of them up til 10 minutes ago actually thought it was a claim to being anything other than a bloke in a dress. Or that blokes in dresses are anything but hilarious. Those "ball" things the Americans have, with endless categories with 1 contestant each do a bit of a walk in some costume, seem like they'd bore the shit out of me as much as they would the large audience who aren't there. But they're just doing a thing. It's neutral, no harm in it. To them it's theatre I suppose, and I'm not interested in theatre. That said, it's often salacious, and the better for it. But it's never been anything for kids, any more than horror films are. It's fine to let adults have our own culture, we don't need to tell kids. Tell them some men love other men, and some women love other women, and that's their choice and it's fine. It's based on fact, not ideology. But they don't need drag queen story hour.
I do remember gay men did complain about women being on their dating apps and how they behaved with the men in gay bars and stuff, way before the current outcry lesbians about men in *their* spaces, but I guess it either wasn't complained about enough or people just didn't care. Maybe a situation of "well you're men, you can just deal with it", idk
Yeah they are on gay male dating apps and they write in their bio demanding ideas that we don’t need to adhere to because we don’t need them on the app in the first place.
My gosh finally i have found people that talk sense on this subject i don't know if this make me not valid but i am a straight male and i totally see what's going on i have been since 2019. So this has been creeping into society since then and probably a lot earlier to be honest and it's only just come to light as an issue since lea thomas over in America because the impact it has on sports and entertainment such as TV and certain films. In a society way my issue here is pronouns and how people i feel are forced to use the other persons pronouns and this can be directly forced or in directly. The trans movement that started in the early 90's was wonderful but now like XR, BLM and the feminist movement pride has been taken over by extreme activist's in my eyes.
Great conversation, gay Gen Zer who grew up in rural/small town Georgia. Loved the part of the conversation regarding “no one cares if you’re gay anymore”. This seems to be a popular talking point and is mostly true for metro areas, but outside of those it definitely is not the case in the US for the most part.
I'm 52 years old I've been part of the gay community since high school. I have a friend who's a lesbian that I've known since my 20s and they decided recently that they wanted to transition to male. They said they did it because they didn't wanna date lesbians anymore. I can tell you that I have had fantasies about straight men over and over again my whole life there are many a straight man that I would love to be with but I'm not going to change who I am to trick them into dating me. On the other hand and this is crazy because it was in the 80s I have a friend long time friend who's been dressing as a female since grade school. I think it just really boils down to being genuine.
I've been thinking about this interview for a week now. This is such important work James is doing; having felt swallowed by the alphabet mafia, I'm going into my 30s feeling disconnected and lost culturally because I can't bring myself to toe the line with all of the damaging rhetoric and destructive actions of the wider identity politics punters. Bravo.
If you look like a lady, but don't identify as a lady, and I refer to you as a lady, and you make a big fuss about it.... who REALLY is the one being hateful in that scenario??
Yeah I don’t think I said ‘lies.’ She has, however, put people like Stella O’Malley in the firing line when it is clear Stella has such genuine intentions in the progression of this cause and helping detransitioners. I find her behaviour authoritarian - she doesn’t believe men would be able to ‘dress how they please.’ This directly affects hyper feminine gay men, who are more likely to transition if they face discrimination for things like wearing makeup, dresses, heels, etc. I feel she is set in her mission and immune to being open minded, which is a vulnerable place to be in. It’s hard for me not to see the power she enjoys in commanding her ‘toe the line’ narrative. Just my opinion. I respect her still - and I would happily still talk to her and debate the issue. She also does a lot of good, of course.
Thank you for speaking up on this topic of gay erasure. I overheard a conversation btwn drag queeens when this whole bearded drag queen trend started and they were really uncomfortable with a bearded lady drag queen look but they were told that they should be fine with it and not shame other queens. It think that was a big start of a lot of this amalgamation of sexuality and gender identity and presentation. I hope no woman thinks that gay men will find they attractive bc that's delusional. I can kinda understand if they're bi, but I don't think they realize how much of the dating pool people are closing themselves off from when they transition. Only a particular group is going to find that gender/sex presentation attractive
If you'd like to have a conversation with a gay male philosopher who subscribes to some gender critical views, feel free to reach out to me! Love your content so far!
56:16 James says the problem is there's just a small number of men who are violent and both men and women are their victims. If you're going to minimize violence against women, then you should do the same with violence against gay men. The men who are violent towards gay men are probably violent to other men and women so should we not talk about gay bashings?
Your comment makes no sense. First of all, what did they say that was factually wrong? What violence against women? Women are the safest group. Some men will always commit crimes against people. That is never changing. Nothing you can do about it. Move on. 😂
This is an example of what I was talking about. What I said doesn't "minimise" violence against women. Acknowledging that the majority of male violence is against other males doesn't mean we should accept or do nothing about violence against women and girls. It's simply giving the context that the issue isn't just about who the victims of the violence are, but who the perpetrators are. The solutions can't just be about putting a shield up around the victims, although we do need single sex spaces and other mechanism to do that. The solutions also need to address where the problem is coming from, ie a minority of men who are violent. It's not a zero sum game of men vs women.
He’s saying that sometimes across as ‘all men’ and this feeds into the demonisation of ‘straight white men’ all being problematic. The majority of men are good people and we should not alienate them. We can discuss both.
@@HumanGayMale Welcome to GC comment sections in 2024. "It kinda feels weird to call Buck Angel "Miss"". "Oh, so you think telling the truth is weird? That says a lot about you!!!" (sigh).
I think I wouldn't have said it in the way he did, but I don't think he was trying to make that point at all. The point was more that not all men were violent or bad, but he supports single-sex spaces, carers etc as he knows that is what women need and benefits them.
It always makes me laugh a little when I heard the whole LGB without the T nonsense. Most of the trans people I know are lesbians or gay. Are they just supposed to not exist? Act like they’re not real? I just can’t follow the thinking.
How are they lesbians or gay? Do you mean born females who like men, and born males that like women? They are literally the opposite of what gay people are if that is the case.
Well, I know a trans man who was born a woman and is married to a woman. His wife still calls them a lesbian couple. Sure sounds like a lesbian to me. This is reinforced even further when people refuse to use male pronouns. Also, my best friend is a trans woman who is bisexual. You do realize that this isn’t a simple math equation where you cancel out common factors. These are peoples lives, and they’re far too complex for such absolutes.
@@Satch5150clf Well this is why in this video I actually say I'm conflicted about LGB minus the T as lots of trans people are homosexual in regard to their birth sex.
@@Satch5150clf Your `trans man` married to a woman is presenting as straight though..therefore not the same as two women presenting as female lesbians. They refuse to use male pronouns because the `trans man` is not convincing. It`s time for trans people to seek their own spaces. A `trans woman` (man) who is bisexual is presenting as a lesbian though very unlikely to have such a relationship, and is obviously presenting as straight if attracted to men. Again, that needs to be in trans spaces, not gay. It`s pretty simple...gay by birth-sex...LG...gay by gender...TQIA+...personally, the bisexual community don`t count.
🕺🏼Should we have spaces exclusively for gay men (born male)?
🙏 Like, Comment, Subscribe! We are almost at 5K!
I think we did, but lost them to all the nonsense. I would have no problem with bi men in the spaces either. Gay men born male? Just gay men. Trans men who like men aren’t gay men. They’re trans men who use to be straight or bi women. Sexual orientation is based on a person’s sex not how they choose to “identify.” Why are we changing the definition of what a gay man is?
Yes, absolutely.
the mind boggles that this question even needs to be asked, although i will admit i am even more alarmed by the number of people who get so triggered by the idea. any group of people with struggles unique to them for one reason or another for instance, benefit from having their own spaces, support groups and networks and the like. if you are not a gay man, you cannot and should not impose yourself where gay men want their own spaces because duh there is that common denominator. its even more ludicrous if it pertains to a reality and experience you can only have, and know, if you are say, a gay man. i'm not sure when people decided that its wrong, a bad thing, mean even, to acknowledge certain distinctions. this was a lovely discussion, happy to see your subscriber count is growing!
@@ladytia1306agreed. It’s a shame how it went from you’re born this way to well gender is a social construct so sexual orientation doesn’t matter, oh and if you’re gay you should be encouraged to sleep with members of the opposite sex cause homos*xuality isn’t diverse enough and doesn’t really exist. Gender ideology is extremely homophobic in its nature.
Hi Jack - as an older Irish gay man myself, I am totally and utterly convinced and I firmly and passionately believe and maintain that we as gay men who were born male must have spaces that are exclusively gay male only, even if this means having secretive or closeted gay male only spaces, as it used to be when being gay was once illegal, which many older gay men in my teens in the 1980’s strongly argued in favour of, as it afforded them a certain level of protection and safety from homophobic “gay bashing” attacks, even at the risk of “fetishising” Gay shame or the ideas around being gay being illegal - in fact, given the many ways in which gay male identity is under increasingly vicious and all-encompassing forms of attack of all kinds from all sides in our current era of LGBT visibility, legalisation and a fake illusion of LGBT “equality” having our own exclusive spaces where we can be truly ourselves and secure in our identity as gay men without judgement, hatred and discrimination, even from within the wider LGBT community, is not just essential, it is utterly vital - many gay men, including older gay men like myself, feel alienated and excluded from the wider LGBT community in its current form
I am a 55 year old (formerly) progressive former ally from San Francisco, and I heard about the stonewall riots and the Compton cafe riots before that my entire life. But it wasn’t until recent years that the narrative suddenly changed and suddenly it was Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P Clark that supposedly started it all. And they were no longer drag queens, but instead they were a term that hadn’t yet existed at that time. The story went that drag queens and gay men were already upset about Judy Garland’s passing, then the raid happened and it sent them over the edge. Frankly I can’t see a lot of T’s reacting like that to Judy Garland passing, as they don’t tend to have fabulous taste.
The "Judy Garland" thing itself is a myth - it came from an article written about the Stonewall uprising in the Village Voice, the point of which was to mischaracterise and belittle the motivations of the riot into "those damn queens upset about something trivial".
It's utterly bizarre that much of the community now accepts this homophobic "fake news" as true and something to celebrate.
Likewise, the drive to place Marsha as the central figure of our "creation myth" is motivated partly by homophobia - putting a clownish figure as leading the riots - often the story is told as being a "drag kick line". All of it serves the same purpose - our civil rights struggle was something frivolous and unserious.
Why would someone who was 'straight' be an 'ally'. Sounds a bit fishy to me. You don't have to be an ally to not hate us. Bizarre.
watch screaming queens.
So because YOU can't see trans people reacting against a police state, that means it can't be true? And therefore you're absolved from attributing any of your present day freedoms to them. Well it is a fact. It Did happen. Have you found some research proving otherwise?
@@incoglido Marsha P Clark was interview more then once and said she didn't get to stonewall until after the riot. It's easy to find these interviews on youtube(Im sure trans activist will fight for it's removal) and Sylvia may have been there, im not sure but from the stories of people there it started off with people throwing change at the police. Blasting the po po with pennies. lol Also I believe Marsha described themselves as a cross dresser. You can't just trans people after death, that's silly.
We almost managed to free ourselves of being a hated subclass, just to be thrown straight back in....
Nah we weren't even close. The anti gay people now use the same exact ideology as they did before
@@MH-bw9ztI disagree. There was so much acceptance before all the trans stuff. Nobody cared that you were gay. Now unfortunately, it's linked to all the weird crimes committed by the TQ.
Absolutely, drawn back into debates we have already won!
literally
I'm so glad that other gay men are finally speaking up about this. Time to cut ties with the TQ+ cult.
That and whatever the hell those other letters are. None of these people are gay, or if they are it's incidental. Their lives and problems are nothing to do with ours. And plenty of us don't appreciate their politics. We carried actual transsexual people on our bandwagon in the past when they were long-established part of our community, and more importantly weren't nuts! The people who've been transsexual for many years generally aren't down with this nonsense.
I was going to say "older transgender people" but then that would also cover 50 year old mid-life crisis fetishists who've been "women" for 5 minutes but feel well entitled to shout down the mere womb-havers who wouldn't know anything about it. If you don't get turned on dressing in your own clothes, if you don't go to work in full lingerie, stockings and suspenders, then you're hardly a woman at all, are you?
I honestly wish the LGB's out there were louder than the 'movement' and their allies narrative.
from a numbers perspective, the QT movement is principally made up of larping heterosexuals. But yes I get your point
It's very exhausting and scary being threatened with r aype, court cases, fire b0mbs and d3@th when standing up to these sociopathic Trenders who are mostly straight people trying to be part of a 'fun' group or AGP predators. They're next level cultists!!!
Oh, we can be, and we are. There's so much establishment and no small amount of law trying to shut us up. But most of the public don't agree with gender nonsense. They're not addicted to kool-aid and cheap affirmation. We're getting somewhere here in the UK, and the backlash is coming, yes, even in "Tranada" Canada! Simply you can't fool all the people all of the time. And people are rightly pissed off about self-ID and transing kids, and there's no talking people around on that. Hence the endless TRA argument of "shut up! you're a transphobe! let's beat up the women and kill you with knives!"
There are, though, fetishists in high places. Politicians seem under-informed and just want to be on the "right side of history", not really thinking it through, accepting this as just another "gay rights" thing, so they push it through because that worked in the past. It doesn't make sense to them, they don't agree with it, but it was expedient in the past, so let's do it now.
But we massively outnumber the "movement", and we're actually right, and sane. That still carries some weight, though less than it used to in a world with Twitter and Facebook in it. But then Mumsnet in the UK is TERF-Base Alpha, our arguments took root there, among ordinary mums. They can take root in ordinary people. I think ordinary people see problems with this gender ideology, but don't want to be bigots, and don't have the time to devote to thinking it through. So if we make our arguments well-known, they can consider those.
We're also aided by the transgender nutcases themselves, who can't stop from provoking outrage on purpose, or through the crazy things they actually believe and want. They're peaking the normies at a rate of knots.
So all is far from lost! Rasputin took a lot of killing, but they got him in the end!
It is time the LGB breaks away from the TQ+
No it’s not
@@adultswiiim You need us more than we need you buddy. You can't hold someone to ransom. Go play with your own friends.
Relieving, measured conversation from gay men not captured by the ideological insanity. You’re out there! 😍 Like a breath of fresh air. Thanks.
I'm a gay living in Texas the vast majority of Republicans don't care if any1 is gay but the T movemen/activism is an issue for most. and 4 myself a bit as well
Texas is so backwards that they make women carry dead fetuses because they are so pro life. They don't believe in feeding poor kids either. Of course they don't tell gays how much they hate them, southerners like to be polite, but look at the elected officials. The people are just as hateful as the people they send to congress, and no they don't think "normal" gays are the good ones. 🙄
Okay, I know this a serious topic, but I just keep noticing how beautiful Jack’s eyes are. 🙂
I totally agree - and Jack is a very handsome looking man as well ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
😂 Winning hearts and minds ❤
I noticed a wee twinkle in both their eyes every now and then
😍+😍=❤
I for one am over it…!!! I’m sick of the Gender Borg and the cry bullies, want nothing to do with this culty stuff.
Check mr. menno out ❤
I’ve been likening the transgenders to the Borg for years! Great to see someone else who sees the likeness
@@monty2005 gay man here The T doesn't exist it's been bad form the beginning but has been the worst in the last few.
@@monty2005 Only a blind idiot choking on their disingenuous virtue would think otherwise. The Gayboys need to start speaking up... enough is enough.
@@derekb4977 Yes the Alphabet cult are out of control... A bunch of crafty zealots.
The problem is the gay community is no longer the gay community. I remember back in the day when the homosexual community was just referred to as the gay community. The whole problem started when the homosexual females wanted the L added for lesbians. I was one of those who warned if we allow this it will be a slippery slope and everyone will want their own letter. I was called a misogynist for feeling that way but the truth is I was right. The homosexual females got their L and then the G community became the LG community which is redundant when you think about it. Then the bisexuals wanted the B and since we already gave the homosexual females their own letter we were equally obligated to give the bisexual community their own letter and then the rest followed.
That’s a very interesting point - the more we divide, the more we divide
Very good point.
What's wrong with lesbians and bisexuals being in there? Most of the issues in gay men's lives also apply to lesbians and bisexuals too. We want the same things, we suffer the same problems. Sure "gay" can include lesbians and bisexuals, but it also has the specific meaning of homosexual men.
The problem came about 10 years ago when a bunch of super-PC loonies wanted a civil rights war to fight, but couldn't find one. Gay marriage had been won. Transgender visibility increased massively in the media as the new story of the hour, and it made for interesting human interest stories. These people made an effort to portray themselves like us, just the gay rights battle all over again. And most of the public didn't care enough beyond "it's a bunch of perverts who want rights, we gave them all the other stuff, fine, we'll do it again now". Without thinking about what was being asked for. Which was very different from simple gay rights.
As a result of the visibility, a lot of people who were merely transvestites, fetishists, talked each other into thinking this applied to them too, and they could have the fabulous ability to live their fetish 24/7 with people cheering them on! Imagine if the Germans gave people the right to crap on each other, which we know they greatly enjoy. But this time you're allowed to rub it in people's faces and un-teach kids their potty training. And anyone who says "would you mind?" gets fined 10,000 Euros.
The thing you're talking about is just because "gay" also means "homosexual male", so was ambiguous to talk about women or bi people with. That's all. It wasn't divisive, or any more than it has to be, since women and men do of course have differences. It's the "me too!" and the idea that anyone can join onto our bandwagon that's the problem. Not lesbians getting recognised.
Finally sane gay men. Down with woke!!!
@@JessicaMarieLayne 💜
Watching the gender movement wedge themselves into the gay community has been really hard for me to accept. I was disowned from my family for 12 years after they found out I was living an actively gay life. The only reason I speak with them now is because my father and brother have passed away, and my mother has health problems, and she needs me around to help her. The females identifying as gay men and gay trans-masc are doing so because they want to be a part of a gay clique; they are like the modern version of a [woman that prefers to be friends with gay men over other woman]. But now instead of being wallflowers and our wing-women, they can engage with gay men the way gay men engage with each other. They found the 'work-around.' I accept there are bisexual people, but the gay men engaging with transmen and trans-masc people as more than platonic friends identify themselves as gay men - which validates what these females are doing. My own mother used to say to me "you just haven't met the right girl." The gay men accommodating these females into their lives as more than friends just may be proving my mother right after all. I've lost a lot of friends over this, but none of them we're treated nearly as dismissively and cruelly by their families when they came out as mine did. This is why this transman /trans-masc inclusion cuts me so deeply. Admitting I'm a homosexual was traumatic and costly; but now my own kind are telling me to change my views about females, because they can be gay men too simply by saying they are, and I must validate and celebrate that.
I've often wondered how we got to this point today; how did we reach a point in our history where we would embrace females as gay men, and insist gay men "overcome their biased preferences" in order to accommodate females as partners. Maybe after gay marriage was won, and the general public's attitudes about homosexually shifted for the better, coupled with the rise of social media, it was inevitable. Gay bars and organizations have been shutting down at scale for years now. Maybe the gender movement is the only thing keeping what remains alive. Maybe the left needs this animosity as a scary boogeyman for the right? Maybe generation Z isn't that concerned with their sexuality because nobody really cares if they date or sleep with both sexes? Maybe being gay today is more about how you dress, the music you like, your esthetic and tastes, and your personality and attitude. If sexual orientation no longer determines whether one is gay, then what else does?
Great discussion; thank you. Cheers!
There is a movement here in Australia where only females meet through word of mouth and only Gay guys make friendship groups through word of mouth which eliminates all the nutters and pervs, hefty/stressful court cases and unnecessary/offensive s3xu@l harassment. After spending over thirty years in gay and Les bars I'm convinced that these infiltrators are absolutely straight people trying to be part of some 'fun' club and can't say that they are either gay, les or bi because they're not and it's at the expense of us real LGB people who have had enough. I miss the old bars and freedoms.
Fascinating conversation. Hopefully this is just the beginning of taken back our stolen culture.
Gay men need their own spaces like everyone else. Back in day London had a lot of various clubs like Heaven, XXL, GAY and many more. We had so much more choices than now.
Such a refreshing respectful discussion… common sense and critical thinking appears to be disappearing at an alarming rate… subscribed
Thank you very much!
you put me onto so many other gays in this space i love it
New community 💜
Sometimes Drag as performance art is interesting but most of the time watching people dressing as an exaggerated woman and miming songs is just not interesting. I never understood why Gay culture is so obsessed with it. As a biological Gay man …. perhaps we can just be ourselves which is sometimes masculine and sometimes feminine. Just as some Gay men act more masculine than they are, many Gay men act more feminine than they are just to fit in to the Gay community ….. can we just be ourselves?
True enough!!
Ah, it's been part of gay culture for centuries, back in the Molly Houses and beyond. You don't have to dig it, but it's part of our culture, there's a lot of us, we can disagree on stuff. I can enjoy a decent drag act, often they tell jokes and stuff. Yeah just lip-synching I don't see the point of, either. But if somebody does, that's fine, plenty of popular culture I don't get.
The important thing, is drag acts are... acts. They're acting. None of them up til 10 minutes ago actually thought it was a claim to being anything other than a bloke in a dress. Or that blokes in dresses are anything but hilarious. Those "ball" things the Americans have, with endless categories with 1 contestant each do a bit of a walk in some costume, seem like they'd bore the shit out of me as much as they would the large audience who aren't there. But they're just doing a thing. It's neutral, no harm in it. To them it's theatre I suppose, and I'm not interested in theatre.
That said, it's often salacious, and the better for it. But it's never been anything for kids, any more than horror films are. It's fine to let adults have our own culture, we don't need to tell kids. Tell them some men love other men, and some women love other women, and that's their choice and it's fine. It's based on fact, not ideology. But they don't need drag queen story hour.
I do remember gay men did complain about women being on their dating apps and how they behaved with the men in gay bars and stuff, way before the current outcry lesbians about men in *their* spaces, but I guess it either wasn't complained about enough or people just didn't care. Maybe a situation of "well you're men, you can just deal with it", idk
Yeah they are on gay male dating apps and they write in their bio demanding ideas that we don’t need to adhere to because we don’t need them on the app in the first place.
My gosh finally i have found people that talk sense on this subject i don't know if this make me not valid but i am a straight male and i totally see what's going on i have been since 2019.
So this has been creeping into society since then and probably a lot earlier to be honest and it's only just come to light as an issue since lea thomas over in America because the impact it has on sports and entertainment such as TV and certain films. In a society way my issue here is pronouns and how people i feel are forced to use the other persons pronouns and this can be directly forced or in directly. The trans movement that started in the early 90's was wonderful but now like XR, BLM and the feminist movement pride has been taken over by extreme activist's in my eyes.
Everyone has their right to an opinion, thank you :)
Great conversation, gay Gen Zer who grew up in rural/small town Georgia. Loved the part of the conversation regarding “no one cares if you’re gay anymore”. This seems to be a popular talking point and is mostly true for metro areas, but outside of those it definitely is not the case in the US for the most part.
@@SamN-yo6db thank you! It’s the important point that us being missed. X
I'm 52 years old I've been part of the gay community since high school. I have a friend who's a lesbian that I've known since my 20s and they decided recently that they wanted to transition to male. They said they did it because they didn't wanna date lesbians anymore. I can tell you that I have had fantasies about straight men over and over again my whole life there are many a straight man that I would love to be with but I'm not going to change who I am to trick them into dating me.
On the other hand and this is crazy because it was in the 80s I have a friend long time friend who's been dressing as a female since grade school.
I think it just really boils down to being genuine.
Excellent guys, thank you very much for doing this.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you James and Jack for your support and work,
Brilliant and terrifying. Thanks guys.
I've been thinking about this interview for a week now. This is such important work James is doing; having felt swallowed by the alphabet mafia, I'm going into my 30s feeling disconnected and lost culturally because I can't bring myself to toe the line with all of the damaging rhetoric and destructive actions of the wider identity politics punters. Bravo.
Glad it helps a bit!
Really loved this interview ❤
Thank you for watching!
Cat fishing should be illegal!
Someone should make a couple of documentaries about gay history
If you look like a lady, but don't identify as a lady, and I refer to you as a lady, and you make a big fuss about it.... who REALLY is the one being hateful in that scenario??
This was a really interesting conversation. Thanks.
I've heard a lot of Kellie Jay and I can't think of any lies she's spread. Jack, can you or somebody enlighten me?
She just doesn’t think you can change sex, or demand access to women’s spaces if you are a man.
Neither do I, so what's the problem?
I watch KJK all the time (along with a host of other GC feminists) and I don’t know of a single lie she’s said.
He said “lives” not lies
Yeah I don’t think I said ‘lies.’ She has, however, put people like Stella O’Malley in the firing line when it is clear Stella has such genuine intentions in the progression of this cause and helping detransitioners. I find her behaviour authoritarian - she doesn’t believe men would be able to ‘dress how they please.’ This directly affects hyper feminine gay men, who are more likely to transition if they face discrimination for things like wearing makeup, dresses, heels, etc. I feel she is set in her mission and immune to being open minded, which is a vulnerable place to be in. It’s hard for me not to see the power she enjoys in commanding her ‘toe the line’ narrative. Just my opinion. I respect her still - and I would happily still talk to her and debate the issue. She also does a lot of good, of course.
Thank you for speaking up on this topic of gay erasure. I overheard a conversation btwn drag queeens when this whole bearded drag queen trend started and they were really uncomfortable with a bearded lady drag queen look but they were told that they should be fine with it and not shame other queens. It think that was a big start of a lot of this amalgamation of sexuality and gender identity and presentation. I hope no woman thinks that gay men will find they attractive bc that's delusional. I can kinda understand if they're bi, but I don't think they realize how much of the dating pool people are closing themselves off from when they transition. Only a particular group is going to find that gender/sex presentation attractive
Great video
Fascinating discussion, guys. It’s so refreshing to hear talk of nuance and a spectrum of different views, rather than zero-sum screaming 🙂👍.
Thanks for turning me on to humangaymale. And to James Roberts (even though I-obviously an American-had trouble with his accent).
Great conversation! I'm really curious as to the bit that was muted 😅 thank you Jack! Keep them coming ❤
That was a mistake! I just asked James where people can go to see more of him and HGM haha
If you'd like to have a conversation with a gay male philosopher who subscribes to some gender critical views, feel free to reach out to me! Love your content so far!
Cute date guys
56:16 James says the problem is there's just a small number of men who are violent and both men and women are their victims. If you're going to minimize violence against women, then you should do the same with violence against gay men. The men who are violent towards gay men are probably violent to other men and women so should we not talk about gay bashings?
Your comment makes no sense. First of all, what did they say that was factually wrong? What violence against women? Women are the safest group. Some men will always commit crimes against people. That is never changing. Nothing you can do about it. Move on. 😂
This is an example of what I was talking about. What I said doesn't "minimise" violence against women. Acknowledging that the majority of male violence is against other males doesn't mean we should accept or do nothing about violence against women and girls. It's simply giving the context that the issue isn't just about who the victims of the violence are, but who the perpetrators are. The solutions can't just be about putting a shield up around the victims, although we do need single sex spaces and other mechanism to do that. The solutions also need to address where the problem is coming from, ie a minority of men who are violent. It's not a zero sum game of men vs women.
He’s saying that sometimes across as ‘all men’ and this feeds into the demonisation of ‘straight white men’ all being problematic. The majority of men are good people and we should not alienate them. We can discuss both.
@@HumanGayMale Welcome to GC comment sections in 2024.
"It kinda feels weird to call Buck Angel "Miss"".
"Oh, so you think telling the truth is weird? That says a lot about you!!!"
(sigh).
I think I wouldn't have said it in the way he did, but I don't think he was trying to make that point at all. The point was more that not all men were violent or bad, but he supports single-sex spaces, carers etc as he knows that is what women need and benefits them.
Absolutely. Superb discussion and this needs to be heard by everyone!!!
Listened to the first 14 minutes and you guys said NOTHING! Figure out your content and get there. I'm outta here.
Well give them details in where they want wrong.
It always makes me laugh a little when I heard the whole LGB without the T nonsense. Most of the trans people I know are lesbians or gay. Are they just supposed to not exist? Act like they’re not real? I just can’t follow the thinking.
How are they lesbians or gay? Do you mean born females who like men, and born males that like women? They are literally the opposite of what gay people are if that is the case.
Well, I know a trans man who was born a woman and is married to a woman. His wife still calls them a lesbian couple. Sure sounds like a lesbian to me. This is reinforced even further when people refuse to use male pronouns. Also, my best friend is a trans woman who is bisexual. You do realize that this isn’t a simple math equation where you cancel out common factors. These are peoples lives, and they’re far too complex for such absolutes.
@@Satch5150clf Well this is why in this video I actually say I'm conflicted about LGB minus the T as lots of trans people are homosexual in regard to their birth sex.
You made a fantastic point that when Philosophy/ideology is strong you miss bad behaviour. Haven’t heard this articulated so clearly before.
@@Satch5150clf Your `trans man` married to a woman is presenting as straight though..therefore not the same as two women presenting as female lesbians. They refuse to use male pronouns because the `trans man` is not convincing. It`s time for trans people to seek their own spaces. A `trans woman` (man) who is bisexual is presenting as a lesbian though very unlikely to have such a relationship, and is obviously presenting as straight if attracted to men. Again, that needs to be in trans spaces, not gay. It`s pretty simple...gay by birth-sex...LG...gay by gender...TQIA+...personally, the bisexual community don`t count.
Not true