Thank you so much for providing us with these videos Tim. I've been following your for nearly two years and can't get enough of this series. If I can humbly submit an idea for a video 📹 could it be about the relationship between war and trade? I'm sure there's a better way to suggest this but hopefully it'll cross your mind somehow
"Yes, welcome everyone to our semi-annual oppression conference. We'd like to thank all the Tyrants and Evil Emperors who were able to make it this time. We'd also like to report that our recent expansion into Wicked Step-Mothers has been a huge success."
Meanwhile, in 2014 at St. Regis Monarch Bay, "My name is Charles Koch, and welcome to American Courage: Our Commitment to a Free Society. Today we will be discussing the best ways to circumvent campaign finance laws to protect our private interests, how to best control the narrative around global warming, strategies for derailing the recent uptick in calls for healthcare reform, and the next steps in privatizing primary education. This is my brother, David Koch, who will be speaking first on campaign finance and our current lobbying efforts."
@@Rotaretilbo yeah thats... Thats not how the world works Like i don't say there arent shitty rich people who arent trying to do that, shitty people exists in all clases all races all sexes and all religions after all, but believe that all rich people are cooperating to make of the world a worst place to enrich themselves is frankly, giving them a lot more credit than they deserve
One thing to also consider is how recently the class system has been in place. A recent class system might have a lot of resentment form the conquered lower classes, but maybe a higher level of oppression; while older class system might have a lot of apathetic middle class. Good Video. And good luck in the next one.
I will say there's an edge case where those multi millennia old conflicts defining things can make sense: if there are a decent number of people who have sufficient lifespan to remember it, or sufficient that the generational divide for ten thousand years is closer to something of a more human timescale. If you have your elves living for several centuries on average, with some or many breaching a millennium or more, that kind of thing can make sense, assuming they have the memory to make such a lifespan useful. You have that in Lord of the Rings with the elves, where at least some of them not only recall, but fought in the war against Sauron the first time.
Something that comes to mind with this as well, is the High Elves of Summerset hating Talos (Elder Scrolls). Even though the reasons for which happened 10-15 generations ago for the humans (which Talos was), for the Elves this is more like 2 generations, and a lot of them live way above average; thus a lot of them remember Talos slaughtering them.
I would add however, that you can see in Lord of the Rings, that it only applies to elves again. The human societies are far less influenced by the war against Sauron then the elven ones.
@@petrsevcik5044 Not really elves per se. As William Koch states, it would apply to any combination of groups where one has a much longer lifespan (fantasy stories just tend to cast humans as the shortest-lived species). If you have merpeople and sea dragons and the dragons live way longer, a similar thing would happen. And if you have a world where humans are the long-lived species because the other relevant intelligent species are some kind of sentient mayflies, humans would be the long-term haters. However, you don't need two different species - take a human society where certain humans have a specific gene/ magic/ access to a Spice that greatly prolongs life, and the long-lived group are going to become the long-term haters. All you need is very different lifespans. The Dresden Files is one instance where mages can get an additional few centuries of life if they're careful, and one of the members of the big Council that makes their laws is a Native American who was alive when the colonization of the continent was happening. (There's also Ancient Aztec vampires, faerie folk and actual Gods, so that doesn't even level the playing field. But some of the old wizards can get grumpy about this young folk no longer wanting to learn Latin, and grudges against whole population groups are real). It can be fun to play with this. I would actually like to see the sentient mayfly scenario (imagine if humans were the Ancient Ones, and having to listen to an ant complain about you holding a grudge against her species because of a Big Bad ant who killed a bunch of humans one week ago).
@@trishapellis Yes, of course. I was talking specificaly about the Lord of the Rings case. Basicaly how long an event is going to have an effect on a society/how strong the effect is comes to generations rather than years. Very interesting case would be one, with long life span, but also early maturity.
The reason why many "organic" class systems had warriors at their noble helms were because Warriors were what gave the "leader"/"king" power so the "king" needed to keep them happy or wanted to thank them. You wouldn't wanna risk your life if as thanks you were just left with nothing more than you started (or more realisticly with less than before).
And speaking of "warrior class" is a little oversimplified. In every societies with "warrior classes", you'll find that the bulk of the armies were civilians from the "laboring class", and the members of the "warrior class" will be the elite force and commanders, but not really the only ones to fight ^^
@@krankarvolund7771 Rather the ones who can afford to fight bc they have more ressources. A "wealthy warrior class" so to speak. They would also more likely fill the higher ranks, but not necessarily be the topmost leader of the army. See the Knights in Ancient Rome. They were for the most part very rich, sometimes even richer than the actual ruling class (senators), but still they were always number two, in the Republic and in the Principate.
@James L I never said that the warrior elite would not fight, I said that they would not be the bulk of the army XD As for WWI, you'll find that it's true only for the lower officers, because they were the ones leading the assaults. But the superior officers like generals, the ones giving the orders, were almost never threatened by the fights ;) As for Carrhae, it's most definitely the tactics of Parthians that give them the advantage, roman legionaries were levies, but they were trained (in Caesar's time, they were practically a rofessionnal army ^^), well equipped and crushed many warrior elites of other nations. They failed against the parthians because an army consisting mostly of infantry have very few chances against an army constisting of horse archers. Hell, even knights have a hard-time against horse archers, at Legnica, the Mongols crushed the polish Knights, even if Polish knights were trained from their childhood. Because they had a superior tactic ^^
To respond to what you said about warriors not wanting to fight if they are left off worse than before, here in the modern day veterans are treated like garbage by the government, yet soldiers still fight. But historically you are definitely correct.
The United State's 'warrior class' is largely composed of lower class individuals without easy access to higher education, insurance, health care, etc. While the rewards for success are great, the punishments for failure are harsh, and the reality is that the elite of the military, the ones who reap the most rewards, are composed of either exceptionally skilled special forces units or officers who already had a college education before joining the military.
"No, we won't effect meaningful and necessary reform to our inherently corrupt law enforcement system, but we will paint 'Black Lives Matter' on the street!"
@@hairohukosu433 and now they're using MLK as purity test while ignoring anything he actually said that they disagree with... I got bingo, what about you?
Hunter Stiles You do understand why they’re dismissing you though right? Your initial assertion that race has nothing to do with the police problem in America is just factually incorrect. Black people are disproportionately targeted, arrested, and convicted, oftentimes more severely than white/others who committed the same crime. The police are more likely to stop black people for no reason, more likely to assault them, and, unfortunately, kill them. These protests, most of which have been peaceful, are absolutely warranted. Also, defunding the police is reasonable police reform. Police budgets are often bloated, and many police departments have enough left over that they’re able to literally buy equipment from the military, stuff that is frankly, unnecessary for policing the public.
1:09 - The Origins of Class 5:23 - A Common Mistake 9:10 - Maintaining a Class Structure 11:31 - Things are Fine 13:08 - The Illuminati, I guess 14:51 - 10 Common Strategies 17:28 - Magic, Technology, and Class 19:23 - Review of Campfire (worldbuilding software)
This is one of the things Fire Emblem Three Houses nails pretty well. Their class system is based on Crests, which are these magical . . . inheritances handed down family lines, which make those who have them stronger magically and sometimes in strength. (And they trigger in game, so you see this yourself.) They seem to be diluting, causing problems among families. And the mythology spun around Crests make them mythological gifts from the goddess, and are kind of the biggest connection people have to her at this point in history. The events in the game are triggered by a someone in the power structure being hurt and oppressed because of Crests. It makes them hate the system, and they are positioned to act on this in a way nobody has been before to challenge it. I’m very impressed with Three Houses’ world building.
I hate the idea that Boromir is shown as not resisting. He is. He might not be strong enough to do so without external help, but this conflict is all over his character. Even his name, can be translated to slavic War and Peace. Bor - often was used for War, even today Bulgarians use word "Borba" to describe War. Mir - as in the space station (I am old), means Peace. While it may not have been deliberate - although Tolkien did know his linguistics - it fits very well.
About the house being on fire; you forgot the, "It's their fault their house is on fire", "Should have worked harder to have a less flammable house", "when will they stop setting fire to their own houses?" comments.
There is a legitimate discussion to be had of just where we as a society draw the line between individual responsibility and the contextual circumstances of history and the way those circumstances effect the present. If we strawmen those arguments merely because they can be used, and are frequently used it must be said, in bad faith then we are not truly addressing issues; rather we are inverting paradigms in the blind hope that the inverse is a better world. If A person suffered a life of hardship and as a result resorted to criminal activity to get by we still recognize that said criminal behavior is intolerable. However it can be that context goes above and beyond what we may subjectively hold as "intolerable"; In example a poor man stealing to feed his family is often cited as a moral reason to commit a criminal act, so to is it permissible to kill in defense of life. So, when is it a person's responsibility that the house is on fire and when is the burden collective? Until we can agree upon that we are just jogging in place.
Generally true, but not always. The Big Bang is an easy example, but there have been a number of cataclysms where one major event has changed the world. Generally, events arising entirely from human activity don't qualify - if they hadn't happened as they did, the circumstances that allowed them to happen would still have been present and something similar would probably have happened sooner rather than later. But there are external forces - the Black Death in Europe, the K/T meteor, the Thera eruption - that impact history from the outside. And, yes, there is always debate over how much each event actually changed things. There are even people who argue that if the Big Bang hadn't happened, a different universe would have come along sooner or later, and things would have ended up much the same, one way or another...
Nice to see you touch upon the Indian caste systems. They were extremely rigid in their hierarchy (hence easier to use as an example here) and shape Indian economics and politics even today. I'm trying to draw upon these and Indian mythology to create my own fantasy world, defined by different rules than most mainstream fantasy worlds, which (usually) draw more upon European systems and beliefs for the basis of their world building.
You raise a good point about Panem, with how it fell apart so easily. Same thing kinda happened to the Empire, if you think about it. The Galactic Empire only lasted about 23 years, and collapsed pretty quickly after Palpatine's death.
@@Caspianm2 Speaking as someone who's only seen the Percy Jackson films, they're at least halfway decent fantasies in their own right. Poor adaptation, but not a terrible movie. Coherent, consistent. I'd watch it again. Artemis Fowl is not only a poor adaptation, but a badly organized film. I was willing to ignore the complete rewrite of the main character, that several characters didn't look remotely like themselves and how everyone's motivations were warped around a new and underexplained McGuffin. I could not ignore that characters switched sides with little to no explanation, that the villian was almost as relevant as Snoke while doing even less, that they did a lot of telling without much showing (mostly in regards to Butler), or that the finale suddenly jumped like the audience was shunted from one version of the movie to a different one with no transition. As a movie it was a mess.
@@BonaparteBardithion They're only halfway decent because of what's leftover from the books. They butcher every single character. It's like they took Harry Potter and turned them into teenagers from the first book, and had a soundtrack consisting of Lady Gaga and other modern abominations.
BonaparteBardithion 😭you would understand the true depth of the injustice we were done with the Percy Jackson movies if you read the book (I read them when I was much younger than I am now, but goddamn, they were some of my favorite books when I was a kid).
Well. That's it. After binge watching pretty much all your videos I decided to check out Avatar the last airbender. Finished the first season in three days, finished the second yesterday and watched the end of it today. Now I understand what you've been talking about and I love it now. Thank you for constantly bringing it up to remind me that I have to watch it lol
'Naturalistic Storytelling' was covered extremly-well by Hbomberguy in his Video 'RWBY is Dissapointing' starting at Minute 35, proving that Krimson Rogue Fans, Hello Future Me-Fans and Telltale Foundry-Fans should not just obviously check-out each-other (cause the named channel are very similar and all 'smart Fun') but should check out Hbomberguys channel. And heres the craziest thing: i will comment this often under each of these Channels in a vague Hope to spread Fun and share Knowledge, OBVIOUSLY risking to be mistaken for a B0T. Thats how much i love the IDEA that maybe someone gets in love to Literature thx to Me.
One other thing is how each class lower than the highest echelons ends up hurting each other. Middle class looks down on or criticizes the lower classes, so to speak.
It's also good to state that the middle class do more to hurt the lower class than the upper class hurt those lower than them. The middle class have always seen themselves as the more virtuous and will actively push political, cultural and social change, under the guise that they are helping the lower class, but the reality is that they are making things much worse and they genuinely despise the lower classes.
@@peachesandcream8753 it's because the middle class interact far more with the lower class than the upper class does. The difference in power between middle and lower class is much greater than the difference between upper and middle, which makes the middle class a lot less fearful of doing certain things to the lower class than the upper class would be when dealing with the middle class, who in the right circumstances, can become a real threat to an upper class
@@GuardianShad that's a very good point. The middle class are an active threat to the upper class and they constantly butt heads; the nouveau riche against the old money. The upper class actively look down on the middle class as tacky, too stiff and serious and overall bores to be around. This is why, historically in the UK at least, the upper and lower classes would mingle more often than the middle and upper classes. There were mass brawls between the upper and lower classes in the past, all in good fun, drinking, parties and camaraderie, because the two classes are very similar to one another. The middle class is like the middle child that everyone ignores.
@@peachesandcream8753 bingo, the age old "new money" versus old, a lot of it to do with the fact even if you have the money, it's harder to fake the culture, which old money take pride in and draw lines with
Thinking of class systems as something that is created based on what benefits the higher levels is really interesting and not something I really thought of before. Great study!
I'd say that they are more reinforced based on what benefits the higher levels. Despite what the anarcho-socialists will try to tell you, class structures arise naturally due to specialization and the need for organization.
@@ErekLich "Anarcho-socialists" literally say that class society arose naturally out of the need for specialization and organization lol. Millenia ago. But they also say that the industrial revolution and increasing automatization make class society both obsolete and inefficient.
We have the technology necessary to house, feed and give a scientific education to each and every human being, which would allow everyone to work in maintaining, optimizing and improving an economy built on automatization, in turn ramping up it's efficiency. That's the point "anarcho-socialists" are trying to make.
I'm really loving this series you're making, because class systems and power structures are so complex and not at all defined by one thing, but most people will treat them as such to make an easier explanation or to convenently ignore some of it's aspects.
the communists want to share our waifus- we can't allow that! Hear me weebs from across the lands, from the hidden ones to the extreme neckbeards with waifu pillows- let us unite against our common foes and strike them down. For if we do not, we'll lose not our lives but our waifus communists: but we don't want your imaginary women me the king of weebs: they tell lies- do not listen to their blasphemy! Weebs, unite and heed my orders, as I lead our weeb crusade. When we win, we'll form a nation serving our waifus, with me as the highest priest. Those who serve our cause well, who spread our ideals and fear no death- they'll be honoured by being my divine eyes and hands through which I'll serve our nation
As a writer who hopes to become an author one day, I absolutely LOVE your videos. I devour them. You are so intelligent and the things you say are always thought-provoking. Thank you for your videos (and also for your book!).
~5:04 The idea that skin color was a determining factor of caste is a myth - the word "varna" means color, but it was metaphorical, not literal. Certain relative skin colors are associated with certain castes - Brahmans tend to be paler due to a mix of more central and west Asian ancestry, and more time spent indoors, while Shudras tend to be darker due to more native South Asian ancestry, and more time spent working in the sun - but these associations only exist in certain areas, and they're relative to the average for different regions (South Indian Brahmans tend to be darker than North Indian ones, and in some regions there's no clear difference in skin tone between castes). The association between skin tone and caste is more recent, largely coming about after the incursion of a few Turkic and European empires, who had stronger links between skin tone and class within their own cultures.
the distinction in skin tones probably always existed to a degree since, as you said, brahmans were paler from being exposed less to sunlight and in basically every society paler skin was a point of status. Early on though there was also likely distinction of status based on skin colour as the upper castes seemed to have mostly been conquerors from central asia while locals would become the lower classes, the process probably did repeat since, as you say, later turks in particular established separate islamic upper castes and over time from the vedic period of course there would have been intermingling of castes, particularly in areas like the south where the caste system was more exported than established by conquest. I don't know if you're saying what I'm saying, but I'm adding that the roots and patterns would clearly tend towards brahman having paler skin, so it wouldn't be wrong to take varna as having a literal meaning that doesn't always apply, just as people may have stereotypes of rich people today, while it may generally be true it'd obviously have exceptions and vary by region and culture.
@@jayasuryangoral-maanyan3901 This is also what I was thinking at that point in the video. Ancient Roman society also had a beauty ideal of 'pallor', as seen in for example Catullus's poems. Back in the day, the people of Italy were all genetically pretty similar, but a peasant tended to spend a lot of time outside in the sun, tending crops or animals, and thus would get tan. Pallor indicated the higher class simply because they could afford to stay in the shade and have servants or slaves do the running and working out in the sun. Ironically, the reverse is true today: white people will visit tanning salons to look tan because in this day and age, city dwellers tend to be paler the poorer they are (because they spend a lot of time working in office buildings or factories and don't have the time to sunbathe or the money/time to visit a tanning salon). In a society where your status or wealth determines how much exposure to sunlight you get, people can see where you are on the ladder by looking at your tan.
@@jayasuryangoral-maanyan3901 yeah but when the caste system 1st came: 1. The Indo Aryans were already mixed with the Dravidians meaning the Indian population was a combination of various shades of colour (not to the extent it is now but yeah). 2. The hierarchy wasn't too rigid. Also the Islamic class system doesn't exist. At least not in principle. Today by law we are still divided into castes but it's more about our ancestry rather than religious reasons. Islam came to India in more ways than 'Mughals came'. And despite that we still interact amd marry each other freely, the only restriction being class.
@@EspeonMistress00 about 1. I meant that the upper castes when it first came about were most likely paler as they came from central Asia and conquered northwest India. There was obviously mixing with local populations but you'd still have more central Asian DNA further up the caste system later on (and when selecting for skin tone you can end up with more genetic heritage from a darker skinned group, but due to selection the paler genes have remained in a certain social circle, this happens in the US a lot). Just as there is a sort of caste system involving kerala christians, the mughals did adopt aspects of the caste system with Muslims (mostly turks) at the top, and the British also embraced the caste system though I'm unclear how exactly it worked under the east India trading company and under crown rule. Sikhs were at the top of the caste system in the punjab too as long as they were independent. Now nowadays things have changed and the caste systems are changing with the times, maybe eventually going away but the mughals did adopt the caste system with themselves at the top, though obviously it was different from the classic Hindu system. I know that the rigidity of the hierarchy has changed a lot throughout history, sometimes being very rigid and sometimes loosening. And besides modern day west, south and north Pakistan Islam did pretty much spread into India by mughal conquest. Maybe I misunderstand you but the caste system is officially abolished by the Indian constitution isn't it? Unless you mean according to Hindu religious views it exists by traditional religious law?
@@HunterStiles651 I thought the brainwashing slander was that Communism/Socialism (actually two completely different entities) is completely different then Capitalism because communism/socialism only ever amounts to government workers being rich and using their great wealth and power to oppress the often "necessarily violent" "freedom" fighters who failed to get A's in history and mathematics at public school. Weird that in failed third-world capitalist countries, and even in currently successful capitalist Empires, the government workers ARE the rich and of course WORK FOR the rich (with salaries and donations dependant on the rich).
Hunter, people who benefit from oppression have always said that. People from slave-owning societies insisted that freeing the slaves would mean that their economic prosperity would be destroyed and then EVERYONE would live like slaves. Segregated communities believed that allowing poor blacks to attend the same schools and live in the same neighborhoods meant that now EVERYONE would have to live like an oppressed poor black person. They insist that the comfort they have can only be maintained if there is a system in place that ensures that the lower people don’t spoil it.
@@letsomethingshine "Communism/Socialism (actually two completely different entities)" Someone doesn't know marxist theory. They are not two completely different entities... well, unless you consider striving for the end goal of communism to be a completely different entity from communism proper. Socialism, by proper historical definition, is the government that oversees the transition between a capitalist society to a communist one. That government which oversees it is necessarily authoritarian, otherwise, the end goal cannot be achieved. The problem is, authoritarian power don't and never will give up their power and will continue with their "struggle" until kingdom come because it benefits them while dismantling it doesn't. Oh, theres also the "world revolution" problem, where if even one single nation decides to *not* be communist, communism is unachievable because it is far too decentralized and weak to function, but thats besides the point.
It’s important to note that Oppressor/oppressed is not a “class” where an individual can only be classified as belonging to one at a time. It’s a relationship dynamic where someone can be preforming both roles simultaneously. That is, someone can be an oppressor by oppressing those below them whilst also being oppressed by those above them. Marx did not believe in that insanely reductionist binary model of classification. Everyone grasps that society is more complex than that. It’s just a propagandist straw man to claim Marx believed in such a ridiculous conception of society.
thank you for being a sane person, i guess. And i want to add that Marxist theory doesn't say that the whole of society is divided into oppressor and oppressed at all times, but rather that, in a contradiction, especially in an antagonistic one, there is the oppressor and the oppressed, with the dominant aspect of the contradiction being the oppressor and the other aspect being the oppressed. Please correct me if i made any mistakes. Also, i hate liberals.
I like the worldbuilding element of class conflict between the powered and the unpowered when a power system is a factor(magic vs. non-magic for example).
I love how your videos are written like lessons that helped me in these times to write my first fantasy novel I am not saying it is very good but it was a very big accomplishment for someone who only wrote short stories Thank you and keep up the good work
Marxists are usually pretty aware of bourgeois ideology which justifies the capitalist class system to the masses, it's an important obstacle to be overcome. For example, Antonio Gramsci describes it with the concept Culteral Hegemony. Looking forward to you covering GLORIOUS REVOLUTION next video :)
What you explained about the differences between a caste system when it is new and when it is a few thousand years old, and therefore irrevocably has changed is very helpful to me. I hadn't thought about its necesity. Exactly one of the reasons why I love this series of yours so much.
Wow, good thing this is all about fictional world building and NOTHING LIKE THIS IS HAPPENING at all. Yup, totally meritocracy in our modern times. Totally.
Even if Meritocracy was possible (it isnt) it would just be a justification for the existing class system. It's just divine right of kings with more steps.
The problem is that theres no feasible way of achieving meritocracy. We should strive for it but... it'll be rough. As is, in the US, we ostensibly have a meritocracy. You will generally get a position if you are qualified and have the merit. Exceptions being mostly affirmative action and nepotism with nice slices of sexism, racism, and so on and so forth. Still, you're mostly looking at the former two rather than the latter. Most of our lack of merit isn't from jobs, but rather, opportunity. The problem is, everyone can't have equal opportunity. You can't force a good family life without being ridiculously oppressive. If you force a good family life by being ridiculously oppressive, you have a lot of power. If you have that power, you probably make a caste system. This is the exact thing that happened in the Soviet Union. Give people absolute power and they will make a caste system that benefits them invariably. In any case, right now the problems are cycles of poverty, crime, and single motherhood. How can you be a good mom *AND* work 9-5, or maybe 2 jobs all day? How can you be expected to get out of poverty when you don't know, trust, or value the systems we have due to how you were raised? How do you get out of the cycle of being a criminal when you live in a situation where the only way to survive is to join a gang or to commit criminal acts like stealing? I mean, theres a lot more to all of those cycles, but there's no fix all. Free college for all wouldn't fix it because a lot of people don't want, trust, or value collage. Welfare doesn't solve it because it is reduced by you working and getting paid, so you're better off just not working -- No seriously, in my state at least, they will reduce your welfare income if you begin to make more money so that you end up with the same amount at the end of the month if you work or dont work. Alimony checks don't solve the problem of having to work *and* raise kids, assuming the father even has a decent income. Yet, people will push them because they *sound* nice. They get you elected and loved, but they don't solve anything. And as always, in the US, our problems come back to the fact that we have a two party system where we are giving nothing but shitty candidates that cant solve the problems we have. I was hopeful that these protests would inspire change in our society and people would see that both sides of our political coin are fucked, but it seems to have just reinvigorated the partisanship.
Meritocracy is a system where people are selected according to merit so it’s definitely possible and is actually the way many businesses and governments are operated.
I have never left a comment on anyone’s UA-cam video, but your dedication to your content and the delivery of it is greatly appreciated! I graduated with a degree in English and your On Writing Series feels like a fun elective I missed out on, keep doing what you do!
Mishka is eternal! His glory will shine upon us forever. . There should definitely be a framed picture of Mishka hanging on the wall behind Tim. Supreme Leader Mikhail Felin.
I'm so excited there will be another video on this. The jokes just keep getting better. Also, it's so sad that as an american I still end up learning things about american history from people from other countries.
in Rome rival fire "brigades" were more like gangs and often got to loot some portion of the damaged buildings so the "brigades" would end up having street brawls about who got to put out the fire and thus get the loot
I just bought Campfire Pro for my DnD and amateur novel writing and I listed you as where I first heard of Campfire. Hope that supports your channel in some way! Love your content
Excited to see the third video, hopefully we take a peak at Marx, "the guy" when it comes to analysis of class systems, especially analyizing how they fail, though the internal contradictions they create.
16:23 Tim: "But I want to talk briefly about point number 3..." [highlights "3.) Cronyism"] Tim: "...Making less powerful individuals dependent on them for money, status, or wealth."
I assume he caught the error whilst assembling the video and couldn't be bothered to fix it so he hung a lampshade on it instead. I love it when creators do that.
"Perhaps the majority or a large group of people think that the way thing well, it's okay. They're not the wealthiest or the most powerful or have the highest status but, things are fine. And those that do have all of them well, they deserve it right? Or those that don't- well, things are come right for them in time. So, why force it?" When a Kiwi with Marxist tendencies has a better grasp on your society and class than you do.
I'm glad Campfire added an option to just by it, I can not tell you how much the idea of having an eternal subscription fee once I start using it scared me off ever wanting to try it.
"class and caste system is an important part of the culture" Me, with a society with a class system of a typical mountain village, ie barely any: *heavy sweating*
My favorite sci fi caste systems are the color system used in Pierce Brown's _Red Rising_ series as well as the dynastic-plutocratic caste system in the _Luna_ series by Ian McDonald.
so, if I understood you correctly, I take it that a separation into different roles, job opportunities, political rights and status based on sex is also technically a caste system and that many cultures for a long time had and still have a man caste and a woman caste? You get born into one based on birth and it determines which jobs you may take, your responsibilities in a family, if you are allowed to vote and so on and leaving that role is pretty difficult. I am surprised you didn't mention it as a very relatable example. or I understood you wrong.
I know this channel is aimed at better writing, but damn do you hit the nail on the head with your social commentary! I need to remember that house fire metaphor when talking to "I got mine" people about having compassion for others.
I laughed a lot at 13:14 but actually... Yep, They do meet (and quite a lot) at societies or clubs, not very secret ones but very real ones 😅 Check those Bilderberg meetings and stuff to be sure, just try to avoid weird theories about it so I don't sound crazy by mentioning their existence haha
BTW I'm just adding a little extra (non requested) information about that part, I'm not contradicting any point that the video made about them just doing what's natural to keep maintaining the status quo / Ballance. He got that part right haha
I just want to say thank you so much for your video essays and your book. You have helped me so much with how I build my world, what details I need to consider, and your insight has truly helped me become better as a writer and storyteller. You have also shown me how tied our story-telling is to real-world events, people, and societies. Nothing happens in a vacuum and in addition to becoming a better writer, I feel like I have a better understanding for how HISTORY IS COMPLICATED. Thank you do much!!
9:27 Just for the record, Marxist analysis does take all of this into account. There are concepts such as "false consciousness", and "petty bourgeois liberalism", that correspond to the things you described in this section.
Some possible examples of the American enforcement of its class system. 1) Legal Barriers: harsh and biased criminal sentencing 2) Cultural Barriers: lack of education & practical knowledge (sex education, budgeting, investing, etc) 3) Cronyism: nepotism 4) Less Powerful Dependent on Powerful: low wages 5) Meaningless Concessions: popular vote in president election 6) Violent Force: police violence 7) Ostracism: not sure about this one, any suggestions? 8) Economic Monopolies: Iron Triangle, Citizens United vs FEC 9) Artificial Scarcity of Resources: overpriced drugs 10) Propaganda: liberal and conservative media
That is good summary. 7) Ostracism: Calling someone a communist if they advocate for expending social safety nets. Or calling someone un-patriotic or saying that they hate America if they bring-up the issues listing above
The point about using a specific resource to control the population in a world with magic is demonstrated really well in the Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson. I don't know if you've read them but I highly recommend them.
Great video as always! I started writing down / summarizing your points lately and it is truly amazing how well structured, easy to understand and yet dense with lots of helpful and important information your videos are. I also like your worldbuilding videos because it helps me look at our world in a more analytical way and that is really interesting. I am looking forward to part 3!
In Chronicles of Terras the class system is and isn't unique. Those who can use magic are near the top, with priests, and others dedicated to Gods being at the top as they are generally given powers, and favor being a sort of mortal patron that last only for a generation. They stay in that upper class, and after their time is up they go up a spot as they begin to train, and help the new one(s) However, that is the only thing that is similar around the world. Each empire, and kingdom is different. In the Valentine Empire being a member of a house denotes your class, with House Blue being the upper, and Red being the Lowest?and seem as nothing more than am insult. Using those colors are also a means of insulting, complimenting, or paying someone. And in the Holy Terrasian Imperium, the class system is based more on Merit, and family ties (similar to Rome in that sense), and it is extremely easy to go up, or down.... however, it is extremely difficult to get into the tippy top, the Merchants families and Senators. The emperor gives them a lot of powers, and free reign over their provinces in exchange for stuff as Humanity values equality, and justice more than anything (due to the many genocides, and injustices garnered agaisnt them to the point where they worship any human in power, such as the emperor, and the senate.)
the "house on fire" sketch would have reached perfection when the other dude would have concluded with something like "you know it's also quite warm at in my house and do you see me complaining?"
This is helpful for me, because in the book I'm working on right now, the main character is from one city-state that got destroyed, and as 50-something man has lived in the city-state he escaped to, and their class structures and cultures are very different. In City A, it's based on ancient Near Eastern civilizations and ancient Egyptian civilization. The king is kind of a figurehead, and magical priests do all the actual ruling, including controlling magic so that only their hand-picked apprentices are allowed to learn it. My MC was one such apprentice, but he ran away as a teenager when the city was destroyed. Where he flees to, I'll call City B. This is based on a southern European medieval/Renaissance coastal city. The city is more modern, it's a time of inventiveness, rapid trade, the rapid accumulation of wealth, and by using his magic, the MC becomes a court wizard, defending this city from invasions and raids, which helps it become one of the most prosperous kingdoms in the world. It is a society that has some religion, but the nobles and king don't take it all that seriously. Since a few noble families have within recent decades accumulated so much wealth, they are able to pressure the king into doing things for them, such that sometimes he feels like their servant - he has to appease them because they're powerful enough to usurp him and install a new king that they do like. And the king wants to create a republican government after he dies, as he has no heir. But he tells my MC about this, but deliberately keeps this plan (which is in his will) secret from the nobles. Because he thinks if it were revealed, the nobles would simply have him killed, and would fight a civil war among themselves for the throne. He also thinks that if they all think they have a shot at being chosen to inherit the crown after he dies, they will behave a little nicer, because they want to get on the king's good side. But recent prosperity has also made them spoiled, especially their children. They've become bored, in the absence of any real enemies to fight, and that boredom makes them prone to debauchery and frivolity. They become obsessed with fashion and gambling, kind of like the court of Versailles just before the French Revolution. So this City B has had nobles and a king for a long time, but history has changed their character and whether the king or the nobles had more power, which in the past might have favored a strong king with the power of the nobles being more limited. It's also of concern that the royal house is down to one member, the king, who never married, kind of like Queen Elizabeth I, and that causes instability and conflict over what will happen when the king dies.
"It's as if millions of Marxists suddenly cried out in terror..." ... and then you provide a completely Marxist interpretation of why people tolerate oppression! Not criticising, it's just weird that everyone thinks they're going against Marx when they're honestly describing the exact things Marx highlighted.
Getting distracted from the point of this video by the fact that that's a *really* unusually big Scout Cavalry rush. Normally by that point you throw in some archers or something, but that person's just going for it. Realtalk: "Okay, the revolution won't be this video, haha, jokes!" *proceeds to spend 20 minutes talking about how the ruler class unjustly maintains its power over the masses* (I also think the Ottoman state is a bit miscategorised in its mention but that's. A whole thing, and not really unique to this vid, so whatever)
![On Worldbuilding: How do Empires Work? [ Fire Nation l Roman l Mongols ] PART 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/51MWp0Hgo90/mqdefault.jpg)
![On Worldbuilding: - How Class Systems FALL [ Korra | Feudalism | WWI ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bbkSim9iaOQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![On Writing: Dark Lords! [ Sauron | White Witch | Voldemort ]](/img/n.gif)
Turns out revolutions are incredibly hard to organise.
~ Tim
Avatar: The Boiling Rock
Sokka: We need to start a riot.
Random Prisoner: Riot! Riot! Riot!
Hi Tim, how would you feel about doing a video on archetypal settings?
Thank you so much for providing us with these videos Tim. I've been following your for nearly two years and can't get enough of this series. If I can humbly submit an idea for a video 📹 could it be about the relationship between war and trade? I'm sure there's a better way to suggest this but hopefully it'll cross your mind somehow
Me thinking about boiling rock and bumi getting huis city back, or maybe just katara vs northen water tribe rules
How long did it take you to make this video? 13 hours, a week?
I love how much Scottish there is in your Russian accent
Rebellion and Revolution are familiar to both it seems.
~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe I love how you always sign your comments.
~James
@@jamesgors6650 I might have to start doing that too...
~ Forest
I like this trend
~Z.T. Rin'ovani
@@Quwia So do I.
~Jeff
Wait no-
"Yes, welcome everyone to our semi-annual oppression conference. We'd like to thank all the Tyrants and Evil Emperors who were able to make it this time. We'd also like to report that our recent expansion into Wicked Step-Mothers has been a huge success."
I can totally see this becoming a skit.
You would love the enchanted forest chronicles.
I saw a glorious skit doing the rounds on Twitter a couple of weeks ago about an "Antifa meeting". You would enjoy it.
@@MrInternetHermit The Wicked Step Mother's traveling, drinking and debating society. Aw yes I know it well.
Meanwhile, in 2014 at St. Regis Monarch Bay, "My name is Charles Koch, and welcome to American Courage: Our Commitment to a Free Society. Today we will be discussing the best ways to circumvent campaign finance laws to protect our private interests, how to best control the narrative around global warming, strategies for derailing the recent uptick in calls for healthcare reform, and the next steps in privatizing primary education. This is my brother, David Koch, who will be speaking first on campaign finance and our current lobbying efforts."
@@Rotaretilbo yeah thats... Thats not how the world works
Like i don't say there arent shitty rich people who arent trying to do that, shitty people exists in all clases all races all sexes and all religions after all, but believe that all rich people are cooperating to make of the world a worst place to enrich themselves is frankly, giving them a lot more credit than they deserve
One thing to also consider is how recently the class system has been in place. A recent class system might have a lot of resentment form the conquered lower classes, but maybe a higher level of oppression; while older class system might have a lot of apathetic middle class.
Good Video. And good luck in the next one.
That ussualy evens out in a generation say 20 years.
Unless the rullers are real cruel
@@timvanrijn8239 More like it evens out when those present on the formation of the class system die out.
I will say there's an edge case where those multi millennia old conflicts defining things can make sense: if there are a decent number of people who have sufficient lifespan to remember it, or sufficient that the generational divide for ten thousand years is closer to something of a more human timescale. If you have your elves living for several centuries on average, with some or many breaching a millennium or more, that kind of thing can make sense, assuming they have the memory to make such a lifespan useful. You have that in Lord of the Rings with the elves, where at least some of them not only recall, but fought in the war against Sauron the first time.
Something that comes to mind with this as well, is the High Elves of Summerset hating Talos (Elder Scrolls). Even though the reasons for which happened 10-15 generations ago for the humans (which Talos was), for the Elves this is more like 2 generations, and a lot of them live way above average; thus a lot of them remember Talos slaughtering them.
Or society is ruled by an immortal and precient god emperor who maintains order for 10 thousand years. Looking at you Duke Leto II.
I would add however, that you can see in Lord of the Rings, that it only applies to elves again. The human societies are far less influenced by the war against Sauron then the elven ones.
@@petrsevcik5044 Not really elves per se. As William Koch states, it would apply to any combination of groups where one has a much longer lifespan (fantasy stories just tend to cast humans as the shortest-lived species). If you have merpeople and sea dragons and the dragons live way longer, a similar thing would happen. And if you have a world where humans are the long-lived species because the other relevant intelligent species are some kind of sentient mayflies, humans would be the long-term haters. However, you don't need two different species - take a human society where certain humans have a specific gene/ magic/ access to a Spice that greatly prolongs life, and the long-lived group are going to become the long-term haters. All you need is very different lifespans. The Dresden Files is one instance where mages can get an additional few centuries of life if they're careful, and one of the members of the big Council that makes their laws is a Native American who was alive when the colonization of the continent was happening. (There's also Ancient Aztec vampires, faerie folk and actual Gods, so that doesn't even level the playing field. But some of the old wizards can get grumpy about this young folk no longer wanting to learn Latin, and grudges against whole population groups are real). It can be fun to play with this. I would actually like to see the sentient mayfly scenario (imagine if humans were the Ancient Ones, and having to listen to an ant complain about you holding a grudge against her species because of a Big Bad ant who killed a bunch of humans one week ago).
@@trishapellis Yes, of course. I was talking specificaly about the Lord of the Rings case. Basicaly how long an event is going to have an effect on a society/how strong the effect is comes to generations rather than years. Very interesting case would be one, with long life span, but also early maturity.
The reason why many "organic" class systems had warriors at their noble helms were because Warriors were what gave the "leader"/"king" power so the "king" needed to keep them happy or wanted to thank them. You wouldn't wanna risk your life if as thanks you were just left with nothing more than you started (or more realisticly with less than before).
And speaking of "warrior class" is a little oversimplified. In every societies with "warrior classes", you'll find that the bulk of the armies were civilians from the "laboring class", and the members of the "warrior class" will be the elite force and commanders, but not really the only ones to fight ^^
@@krankarvolund7771 Rather the ones who can afford to fight bc they have more ressources. A "wealthy warrior class" so to speak. They would also more likely fill the higher ranks, but not necessarily be the topmost leader of the army. See the Knights in Ancient Rome. They were for the most part very rich, sometimes even richer than the actual ruling class (senators), but still they were always number two, in the Republic and in the Principate.
@James L I never said that the warrior elite would not fight, I said that they would not be the bulk of the army XD
As for WWI, you'll find that it's true only for the lower officers, because they were the ones leading the assaults. But the superior officers like generals, the ones giving the orders, were almost never threatened by the fights ;)
As for Carrhae, it's most definitely the tactics of Parthians that give them the advantage, roman legionaries were levies, but they were trained (in Caesar's time, they were practically a rofessionnal army ^^), well equipped and crushed many warrior elites of other nations. They failed against the parthians because an army consisting mostly of infantry have very few chances against an army constisting of horse archers.
Hell, even knights have a hard-time against horse archers, at Legnica, the Mongols crushed the polish Knights, even if Polish knights were trained from their childhood. Because they had a superior tactic ^^
To respond to what you said about warriors not wanting to fight if they are left off worse than before, here in the modern day veterans are treated like garbage by the government, yet soldiers still fight. But historically you are definitely correct.
The United State's 'warrior class' is largely composed of lower class individuals without easy access to higher education, insurance, health care, etc. While the rewards for success are great, the punishments for failure are harsh, and the reality is that the elite of the military, the ones who reap the most rewards, are composed of either exceptionally skilled special forces units or officers who already had a college education before joining the military.
That settles it.
I'm writing a story where "tsunamis hit the world every decade and swimmers are revered as gods"
I'm playing that game right now.
@@BonaparteBardithion are you? what's it called?
Are the highest of the upper class called Phelps?
@@leandersearle5094 i was just going to say that, Michael Phelps would be a god on flesh in this world
@@carso1500 The belief on merpeople would be like that in angels!
"Meaningless concessions" reminds me of most businesses. "No, you guys can't have bonuses or raises but we'll throw you a luncheon!"
"No, we won't effect meaningful and necessary reform to our inherently corrupt law enforcement system, but we will paint 'Black Lives Matter' on the street!"
@@HunterStiles651 found the white moderate.
@@hairohukosu433 and now they're using MLK as purity test while ignoring anything he actually said that they disagree with... I got bingo, what about you?
Hunter Stiles You do understand why they’re dismissing you though right? Your initial assertion that race has nothing to do with the police problem in America is just factually incorrect. Black people are disproportionately targeted, arrested, and convicted, oftentimes more severely than white/others who committed the same crime. The police are more likely to stop black people for no reason, more likely to assault them, and, unfortunately, kill them. These protests, most of which have been peaceful, are absolutely warranted. Also, defunding the police is reasonable police reform. Police budgets are often bloated, and many police departments have enough left over that they’re able to literally buy equipment from the military, stuff that is frankly, unnecessary for policing the public.
"We'll just clap for you. That won't pay your bills, but hey ... what more can you ask for?"
1:09 - The Origins of Class
5:23 - A Common Mistake
9:10 - Maintaining a Class Structure
11:31 - Things are Fine
13:08 - The Illuminati, I guess
14:51 - 10 Common Strategies
17:28 - Magic, Technology, and Class
19:23 - Review of Campfire (worldbuilding software)
This is one of the things Fire Emblem Three Houses nails pretty well. Their class system is based on Crests, which are these magical . . . inheritances handed down family lines, which make those who have them stronger magically and sometimes in strength. (And they trigger in game, so you see this yourself.) They seem to be diluting, causing problems among families. And the mythology spun around Crests make them mythological gifts from the goddess, and are kind of the biggest connection people have to her at this point in history.
The events in the game are triggered by a someone in the power structure being hurt and oppressed because of Crests. It makes them hate the system, and they are positioned to act on this in a way nobody has been before to challenge it. I’m very impressed with Three Houses’ world building.
Since I can't find a reference to the arsonist yet, I'll make one. "Do you by any chance happen to have a match?"
Eyyy! You beat me to it!
I see you are a person of culture
I was wondering if Mr. Thorne had inspired that part of the script.
I see thou art a man/woman of culture...
@@AtomicBananaPress Turns out Ms Thorne all along, but I hope that it was inspired by her as well, that would be cool.
I hate the idea that Boromir is shown as not resisting. He is. He might not be strong enough to do so without external help, but this conflict is all over his character. Even his name, can be translated to slavic War and Peace. Bor - often was used for War, even today Bulgarians use word "Borba" to describe War. Mir - as in the space station (I am old), means Peace. While it may not have been deliberate - although Tolkien did know his linguistics - it fits very well.
About the house being on fire; you forgot the, "It's their fault their house is on fire", "Should have worked harder to have a less flammable house", "when will they stop setting fire to their own houses?" comments.
"all houses matter"
"Imagine, for the sake of argument, that their house is REALLY on fire... Don't you think these people would just sell their house and move? "
I'm fine with a fire brigade but I'd rather not be forced to fund or assist it.
I'd give you a like, but you've got 69 likes rn and I don't wanna ruin it. You're welcome.
There is a legitimate discussion to be had of just where we as a society draw the line between individual responsibility and the contextual circumstances of history and the way those circumstances effect the present. If we strawmen those arguments merely because they can be used, and are frequently used it must be said, in bad faith then we are not truly addressing issues; rather we are inverting paradigms in the blind hope that the inverse is a better world.
If A person suffered a life of hardship and as a result resorted to criminal activity to get by we still recognize that said criminal behavior is intolerable. However it can be that context goes above and beyond what we may subjectively hold as "intolerable"; In example a poor man stealing to feed his family is often cited as a moral reason to commit a criminal act, so to is it permissible to kill in defense of life.
So, when is it a person's responsibility that the house is on fire and when is the burden collective? Until we can agree upon that we are just jogging in place.
Just had a neat catchy thought
"Single events do not change all of history. All of history determines all single events."
Generally true, but not always. The Big Bang is an easy example, but there have been a number of cataclysms where one major event has changed the world. Generally, events arising entirely from human activity don't qualify - if they hadn't happened as they did, the circumstances that allowed them to happen would still have been present and something similar would probably have happened sooner rather than later. But there are external forces - the Black Death in Europe, the K/T meteor, the Thera eruption - that impact history from the outside. And, yes, there is always debate over how much each event actually changed things. There are even people who argue that if the Big Bang hadn't happened, a different universe would have come along sooner or later, and things would have ended up much the same, one way or another...
The Mule would like a word with you
Nice to see you touch upon the Indian caste systems. They were extremely rigid in their hierarchy (hence easier to use as an example here) and shape Indian economics and politics even today. I'm trying to draw upon these and Indian mythology to create my own fantasy world, defined by different rules than most mainstream fantasy worlds, which (usually) draw more upon European systems and beliefs for the basis of their world building.
Omg I need to hear more
You raise a good point about Panem, with how it fell apart so easily. Same thing kinda happened to the Empire, if you think about it. The Galactic Empire only lasted about 23 years, and collapsed pretty quickly after Palpatine's death.
The revolution will not be televised, but it will be posted on UA-cam!
When does the second script compilation come out?
Artemis Fowl: Terrible
Disney: How many of these can we make?
Percy Jackson fans: First time?
@@Caspianm2
Speaking as someone who's only seen the Percy Jackson films, they're at least halfway decent fantasies in their own right. Poor adaptation, but not a terrible movie. Coherent, consistent. I'd watch it again.
Artemis Fowl is not only a poor adaptation, but a badly organized film. I was willing to ignore the complete rewrite of the main character, that several characters didn't look remotely like themselves and how everyone's motivations were warped around a new and underexplained McGuffin.
I could not ignore that characters switched sides with little to no explanation, that the villian was almost as relevant as Snoke while doing even less, that they did a lot of telling without much showing (mostly in regards to Butler), or that the finale suddenly jumped like the audience was shunted from one version of the movie to a different one with no transition.
As a movie it was a mess.
@@BonaparteBardithion They're only halfway decent because of what's leftover from the books. They butcher every single character. It's like they took Harry Potter and turned them into teenagers from the first book, and had a soundtrack consisting of Lady Gaga and other modern abominations.
BonaparteBardithion 😭you would understand the true depth of the injustice we were done with the Percy Jackson movies if you read the book (I read them when I was much younger than I am now, but goddamn, they were some of my favorite books when I was a kid).
@@Caspianm2 Eragon fans, too.
I appreciate how you relied heavily on noncontemprary examples, despite them being (inevitably) connected to recent politics. Great video!!!!
On that note the uper class can use the lower class against the middel class.
Well. That's it. After binge watching pretty much all your videos I decided to check out Avatar the last airbender. Finished the first season in three days, finished the second yesterday and watched the end of it today. Now I understand what you've been talking about and I love it now. Thank you for constantly bringing it up to remind me that I have to watch it lol
'Naturalistic Storytelling' was covered extremly-well by Hbomberguy in his
Video 'RWBY is Dissapointing' starting at Minute 35, proving that Krimson Rogue Fans, Hello Future Me-Fans and Telltale Foundry-Fans should not just obviously check-out each-other (cause the named channel are very similar and all 'smart Fun') but should check out Hbomberguys channel.
And heres the craziest thing: i will comment this often under each of these Channels in a vague Hope to spread Fun and share Knowledge, OBVIOUSLY risking to be mistaken for a B0T.
Thats how much i love the IDEA that maybe someone gets in love to Literature thx to Me.
One other thing is how each class lower than the highest echelons ends up hurting each other. Middle class looks down on or criticizes the lower classes, so to speak.
It's also good to state that the middle class do more to hurt the lower class than the upper class hurt those lower than them. The middle class have always seen themselves as the more virtuous and will actively push political, cultural and social change, under the guise that they are helping the lower class, but the reality is that they are making things much worse and they genuinely despise the lower classes.
@@peachesandcream8753 it's because the middle class interact far more with the lower class than the upper class does.
The difference in power between middle and lower class is much greater than the difference between upper and middle, which makes the middle class a lot less fearful of doing certain things to the lower class than the upper class would be when dealing with the middle class, who in the right circumstances, can become a real threat to an upper class
@@GuardianShad that's a very good point. The middle class are an active threat to the upper class and they constantly butt heads; the nouveau riche against the old money. The upper class actively look down on the middle class as tacky, too stiff and serious and overall bores to be around. This is why, historically in the UK at least, the upper and lower classes would mingle more often than the middle and upper classes. There were mass brawls between the upper and lower classes in the past, all in good fun, drinking, parties and camaraderie, because the two classes are very similar to one another. The middle class is like the middle child that everyone ignores.
@@peachesandcream8753 bingo, the age old "new money" versus old, a lot of it to do with the fact even if you have the money, it's harder to fake the culture, which old money take pride in and draw lines with
I can't believe you pulled a Hobbit on us.
Thinking of class systems as something that is created based on what benefits the higher levels is really interesting and not something I really thought of before. Great study!
I'd say that they are more reinforced based on what benefits the higher levels. Despite what the anarcho-socialists will try to tell you, class structures arise naturally due to specialization and the need for organization.
@@ErekLich "Anarcho-socialists" literally say that class society arose naturally out of the need for specialization and organization lol. Millenia ago.
But they also say that the industrial revolution and increasing automatization make class society both obsolete and inefficient.
We have the technology necessary to house, feed and give a scientific education to each and every human being, which would allow everyone to work in maintaining, optimizing and improving an economy built on automatization, in turn ramping up it's efficiency. That's the point "anarcho-socialists" are trying to make.
They arise naturally, but you have to "create" them in your worldbuilding, so it's tempting to act like that's how it works.
@@elsasslotharingen7507 something given has no value.
You give cattle there feed.
A person earns his food
Have you ever read and/or seen anything from “The Expanse”? I think it would be up your alley.
TIM TIM THE ASCENDANCE OF A BOOKWORM
I have a feeling you're going to LOVE that show!
ya know what, this video has completely extinguished my desire to add a class system to my world
"Who of you gets to lose their heads in the coming revolution" is, hands down, the funniest thing I've heard today
I'm really loving this series you're making, because class systems and power structures are so complex and not at all defined by one thing, but most people will treat them as such to make an easier explanation or to convenently ignore some of it's aspects.
"The war between us and the weebs!"
Fellow weebs, to arms!
I'm too lazy for that
I fight for my imouto
the communists want to share our waifus- we can't allow that! Hear me weebs from across the lands, from the hidden ones to the extreme neckbeards with waifu pillows- let us unite against our common foes and strike them down. For if we do not, we'll lose not our lives but our waifus
communists: but we don't want your imaginary women
me the king of weebs: they tell lies- do not listen to their blasphemy! Weebs, unite and heed my orders, as I lead our weeb crusade. When we win, we'll form a nation serving our waifus, with me as the highest priest. Those who serve our cause well, who spread our ideals and fear no death- they'll be honoured by being my divine eyes and hands through which I'll serve our nation
To soft, noodly arms.
they’re all so misguided. We have to show them the true path. The only path. Cute reaction noises
I'm so happy you included Dune in here. One of the greats narratives ever
As a writer who hopes to become an author one day, I absolutely LOVE your videos. I devour them. You are so intelligent and the things you say are always thought-provoking. Thank you for your videos (and also for your book!).
~5:04 The idea that skin color was a determining factor of caste is a myth - the word "varna" means color, but it was metaphorical, not literal. Certain relative skin colors are associated with certain castes - Brahmans tend to be paler due to a mix of more central and west Asian ancestry, and more time spent indoors, while Shudras tend to be darker due to more native South Asian ancestry, and more time spent working in the sun - but these associations only exist in certain areas, and they're relative to the average for different regions (South Indian Brahmans tend to be darker than North Indian ones, and in some regions there's no clear difference in skin tone between castes). The association between skin tone and caste is more recent, largely coming about after the incursion of a few Turkic and European empires, who had stronger links between skin tone and class within their own cultures.
the distinction in skin tones probably always existed to a degree since, as you said, brahmans were paler from being exposed less to sunlight and in basically every society paler skin was a point of status.
Early on though there was also likely distinction of status based on skin colour as the upper castes seemed to have mostly been conquerors from central asia while locals would become the lower classes, the process probably did repeat since, as you say, later turks in particular established separate islamic upper castes and over time from the vedic period of course there would have been intermingling of castes, particularly in areas like the south where the caste system was more exported than established by conquest.
I don't know if you're saying what I'm saying, but I'm adding that the roots and patterns would clearly tend towards brahman having paler skin, so it wouldn't be wrong to take varna as having a literal meaning that doesn't always apply, just as people may have stereotypes of rich people today, while it may generally be true it'd obviously have exceptions and vary by region and culture.
@@jayasuryangoral-maanyan3901 This is also what I was thinking at that point in the video. Ancient Roman society also had a beauty ideal of 'pallor', as seen in for example Catullus's poems. Back in the day, the people of Italy were all genetically pretty similar, but a peasant tended to spend a lot of time outside in the sun, tending crops or animals, and thus would get tan. Pallor indicated the higher class simply because they could afford to stay in the shade and have servants or slaves do the running and working out in the sun. Ironically, the reverse is true today: white people will visit tanning salons to look tan because in this day and age, city dwellers tend to be paler the poorer they are (because they spend a lot of time working in office buildings or factories and don't have the time to sunbathe or the money/time to visit a tanning salon). In a society where your status or wealth determines how much exposure to sunlight you get, people can see where you are on the ladder by looking at your tan.
@@jayasuryangoral-maanyan3901 yeah but when the caste system 1st came:
1. The Indo Aryans were already mixed with the Dravidians meaning the Indian population was a combination of various shades of colour (not to the extent it is now but yeah).
2. The hierarchy wasn't too rigid.
Also the Islamic class system doesn't exist. At least not in principle. Today by law we are still divided into castes but it's more about our ancestry rather than religious reasons. Islam came to India in more ways than 'Mughals came'. And despite that we still interact amd marry each other freely, the only restriction being class.
@@EspeonMistress00 about 1. I meant that the upper castes when it first came about were most likely paler as they came from central Asia and conquered northwest India. There was obviously mixing with local populations but you'd still have more central Asian DNA further up the caste system later on (and when selecting for skin tone you can end up with more genetic heritage from a darker skinned group, but due to selection the paler genes have remained in a certain social circle, this happens in the US a lot).
Just as there is a sort of caste system involving kerala christians, the mughals did adopt aspects of the caste system with Muslims (mostly turks) at the top, and the British also embraced the caste system though I'm unclear how exactly it worked under the east India trading company and under crown rule. Sikhs were at the top of the caste system in the punjab too as long as they were independent.
Now nowadays things have changed and the caste systems are changing with the times, maybe eventually going away but the mughals did adopt the caste system with themselves at the top, though obviously it was different from the classic Hindu system.
I know that the rigidity of the hierarchy has changed a lot throughout history, sometimes being very rigid and sometimes loosening.
And besides modern day west, south and north Pakistan Islam did pretty much spread into India by mughal conquest.
Maybe I misunderstand you but the caste system is officially abolished by the Indian constitution isn't it? Unless you mean according to Hindu religious views it exists by traditional religious law?
Is better with pictures
9:46 "The opressors wouldn't be so powerful if they themselves didn't have support amongst the opressed" Karl Marx.
@@HunterStiles651 I thought the brainwashing slander was that Communism/Socialism (actually two completely different entities) is completely different then Capitalism because communism/socialism only ever amounts to government workers being rich and using their great wealth and power to oppress the often "necessarily violent" "freedom" fighters who failed to get A's in history and mathematics at public school. Weird that in failed third-world capitalist countries, and even in currently successful capitalist Empires, the government workers ARE the rich and of course WORK FOR the rich (with salaries and donations dependant on the rich).
Hunter, people who benefit from oppression have always said that. People from slave-owning societies insisted that freeing the slaves would mean that their economic prosperity would be destroyed and then EVERYONE would live like slaves. Segregated communities believed that allowing poor blacks to attend the same schools and live in the same neighborhoods meant that now EVERYONE would have to live like an oppressed poor black person. They insist that the comfort they have can only be maintained if there is a system in place that ensures that the lower people don’t spoil it.
@@letsomethingshine "Communism/Socialism (actually two completely different entities)"
Someone doesn't know marxist theory.
They are not two completely different entities... well, unless you consider striving for the end goal of communism to be a completely different entity from communism proper.
Socialism, by proper historical definition, is the government that oversees the transition between a capitalist society to a communist one. That government which oversees it is necessarily authoritarian, otherwise, the end goal cannot be achieved. The problem is, authoritarian power don't and never will give up their power and will continue with their "struggle" until kingdom come because it benefits them while dismantling it doesn't.
Oh, theres also the "world revolution" problem, where if even one single nation decides to *not* be communist, communism is unachievable because it is far too decentralized and weak to function, but thats besides the point.
DownUFO might be so but it doesn't change the fact that in socialism or communism, only the top 1% have anything AT ALL.
@@HunterStiles651 ah, nice, another one brainwashed with cold War era propaganda about communism
It’s important to note that Oppressor/oppressed is not a “class” where an individual can only be classified as belonging to one at a time. It’s a relationship dynamic where someone can be preforming both roles simultaneously. That is, someone can be an oppressor by oppressing those below them whilst also being oppressed by those above them. Marx did not believe in that insanely reductionist binary model of classification. Everyone grasps that society is more complex than that. It’s just a propagandist straw man to claim Marx believed in such a ridiculous conception of society.
thank you for being a sane person, i guess. And i want to add that Marxist theory doesn't say that the whole of society is divided into oppressor and oppressed at all times, but rather that, in a contradiction, especially in an antagonistic one, there is the oppressor and the oppressed, with the dominant aspect of the contradiction being the oppressor and the other aspect being the oppressed.
Please correct me if i made any mistakes.
Also, i hate liberals.
>thanks for sponsoring this propa--ganda-- I mean world building
Wonderful.
One man's destabalizing propaganda is another man's empowering treasure.
Comrade Hello Future Me preparing the proletariat for the oncoming revolution
I like the worldbuilding element of class conflict between the powered and the unpowered when a power system is a factor(magic vs. non-magic for example).
Haha but there is a meeting every year between the rich, powerful, and shady. It’s called Davos.
I love how your videos are written like lessons that helped me in these times to write my first fantasy novel I am not saying it is very good but it was a very big accomplishment for someone who only wrote short stories
Thank you and keep up the good work
I love how this channel uses the frame of fiction writting to discuss real serious topics, i really hope things change in a future
It is up to us to action change.
it took me like 3 minutes into the video for me to figure out you were talking about social class systems, not combat classes. 500 iq
This class system parts becomes a miniseries on its own, and I love it.
You make complicated topics easier to digest.
Marxists are usually pretty aware of bourgeois ideology which justifies the capitalist class system to the masses, it's an important obstacle to be overcome. For example, Antonio Gramsci describes it with the concept Culteral Hegemony.
Looking forward to you covering GLORIOUS REVOLUTION next video :)
yeah! its the alienation under capitalism
What you explained about the differences between a caste system when it is new and when it is a few thousand years old, and therefore irrevocably has changed is very helpful to me. I hadn't thought about its necesity. Exactly one of the reasons why I love this series of yours so much.
This really affirmed that I am on the right track in my novel-caste systems are complex and they change based on many factors.
I eeked a little bit when you mentioned Code Geass. It's a fantastic story I would really like to see you reference it more often
I'm really loving the class-system worldbuilding videos because it's a major plot point in the fantasy book I'm writing!
Wow, good thing this is all about fictional world building and NOTHING LIKE THIS IS HAPPENING at all.
Yup, totally meritocracy in our modern times. Totally.
Even if Meritocracy was possible (it isnt) it would just be a justification for the existing class system. It's just divine right of kings with more steps.
The problem is that theres no feasible way of achieving meritocracy. We should strive for it but... it'll be rough.
As is, in the US, we ostensibly have a meritocracy. You will generally get a position if you are qualified and have the merit. Exceptions being mostly affirmative action and nepotism with nice slices of sexism, racism, and so on and so forth. Still, you're mostly looking at the former two rather than the latter.
Most of our lack of merit isn't from jobs, but rather, opportunity. The problem is, everyone can't have equal opportunity. You can't force a good family life without being ridiculously oppressive. If you force a good family life by being ridiculously oppressive, you have a lot of power. If you have that power, you probably make a caste system. This is the exact thing that happened in the Soviet Union. Give people absolute power and they will make a caste system that benefits them invariably.
In any case, right now the problems are cycles of poverty, crime, and single motherhood. How can you be a good mom *AND* work 9-5, or maybe 2 jobs all day? How can you be expected to get out of poverty when you don't know, trust, or value the systems we have due to how you were raised? How do you get out of the cycle of being a criminal when you live in a situation where the only way to survive is to join a gang or to commit criminal acts like stealing?
I mean, theres a lot more to all of those cycles, but there's no fix all. Free college for all wouldn't fix it because a lot of people don't want, trust, or value collage. Welfare doesn't solve it because it is reduced by you working and getting paid, so you're better off just not working -- No seriously, in my state at least, they will reduce your welfare income if you begin to make more money so that you end up with the same amount at the end of the month if you work or dont work. Alimony checks don't solve the problem of having to work *and* raise kids, assuming the father even has a decent income.
Yet, people will push them because they *sound* nice. They get you elected and loved, but they don't solve anything.
And as always, in the US, our problems come back to the fact that we have a two party system where we are giving nothing but shitty candidates that cant solve the problems we have.
I was hopeful that these protests would inspire change in our society and people would see that both sides of our political coin are fucked, but it seems to have just reinvigorated the partisanship.
Meritocracy is a system where people are selected according to merit so it’s definitely possible and is actually the way many businesses and governments are operated.
@@Valencetheshireman927 Businesses, maybe. Governments, no. You're incredibly naive thinking any aspect of our life is a meritocracy.
@@Valencetheshireman927 those with power will define merit as meaning whatever enables them to stay in power.
I have never left a comment on anyone’s UA-cam video, but your dedication to your content and the delivery of it is greatly appreciated! I graduated with a degree in English and your On Writing Series feels like a fun elective I missed out on, keep doing what you do!
I prefer soft class systems. They're more mysterious and magical.
I would agree with you, but it’s not as realistic.
Is soft class system the one where Gandalf comes out of nowhere and places you under indentured servitude?
@Theophrastus Bombastus, of course!
Wow, it is crazy how much I've learned about the world, just from learning about world-building! Amazing
When talking about the revolution I kind of expect to see our supreme leader mishka (rip) :(
Mishka is eternal! His glory will shine upon us forever.
.
There should definitely be a framed picture of Mishka hanging on the wall behind Tim.
Supreme Leader Mikhail Felin.
@@johannageisel5390
*Her Glory :)
@@thelvadam2884 What? Mishka is a male name, so I assumed it was a male cat.
Not only am I getting good lessons in world building, but moral calls to action on avoiding being apathetic to my neighbors issues
I'm so excited there will be another video on this. The jokes just keep getting better.
Also, it's so sad that as an american I still end up learning things about american history from people from other countries.
in Rome rival fire "brigades" were more like gangs and often got to loot some portion of the damaged buildings so the "brigades" would end up having street brawls about who got to put out the fire and thus get the loot
I am so excited that this channel is promptly accepting and stepping up to its role as a part of Breadtube
Hello future... Wheat?
I just bought Campfire Pro for my DnD and amateur novel writing and I listed you as where I first heard of Campfire. Hope that supports your channel in some way! Love your content
just as a heads up, if you properly timestamp your video in the description, UA-cam will split your video into chapters based on those timestamps!
Neat! I am doubly more motivated now to put all my might into the revolut...WORLD I am building, Comrade!
13:17 is literally the Davos Conference though lol
Really awesome to see you mention Max Barry, he's a favourite author of mine that I don't see mentioned often enough
This video is strangely, applicable to current events. :)
That bit about the house on fire is a really concise illustration of the present issue, actually.
you get a like and a comment early for that joke about Leninist-Trotskyist infighting
I love these propa-I mean, informational videos.
Excited to see the third video, hopefully we take a peak at Marx, "the guy" when it comes to analysis of class systems, especially analyizing how they fail, though the internal contradictions they create.
That little bit about the burning house was a pretty damn good microcosm on why social progress is so often slow
Weeaboos brothers, join me and we will bring down the Nerd upper class
RAISE YOUR WAIFU/HUSBANDO!!!!!
I love your content, there is a lot of historical facts in your shows analysis and things that I never take the time of analysing it.
16:23
Tim: "But I want to talk briefly about point number 3..."
[highlights "3.) Cronyism"]
Tim: "...Making less powerful individuals dependent on them for money, status, or wealth."
I assume he caught the error whilst assembling the video and couldn't be bothered to fix it so he hung a lampshade on it instead. I love it when creators do that.
Maybe weird to say, but these videos help me in depressive episodes so much. You distract me with knowledge like no other can
"Perhaps the majority or a large group of people think that the way thing well, it's okay. They're not the wealthiest or the most powerful or have the highest status but, things are fine. And those that do have all of them well, they deserve it right? Or those that don't- well, things are come right for them in time. So, why force it?"
When a Kiwi with Marxist tendencies has a better grasp on your society and class than you do.
I must say, this video is an amazing birthday present.
The sanskirt word "Aryan" comes from the more ancient proto indo-european word "heryos" which means kinsman.
I love that you know Code Geass. It's my favorite anime
Love the Order of the Knights of Bud Light 😂😂😂
I'm glad Campfire added an option to just by it, I can not tell you how much the idea of having an eternal subscription fee once I start using it scared me off ever wanting to try it.
"class and caste system is an important part of the culture"
Me, with a society with a class system of a typical mountain village, ie barely any: *heavy sweating*
My favorite sci fi caste systems are the color system used in Pierce Brown's _Red Rising_ series as well as the dynastic-plutocratic caste system in the _Luna_ series by Ian McDonald.
so, if I understood you correctly, I take it that a separation into different roles, job opportunities, political rights and status based on sex is also technically a caste system and that many cultures for a long time had and still have a man caste and a woman caste? You get born into one based on birth and it determines which jobs you may take, your responsibilities in a family, if you are allowed to vote and so on and leaving that role is pretty difficult. I am surprised you didn't mention it as a very relatable example. or I understood you wrong.
Really looking forward to the finale! Your insight on worldbuilding and writing is always beneficial and cast systems are a large part of my WIP🙇🏻🙇🏻
Well it's nice to see THEY aren't actually watching right now. Oh boy bread and circuses my favorite!
I know this channel is aimed at better writing, but damn do you hit the nail on the head with your social commentary! I need to remember that house fire metaphor when talking to "I got mine" people about having compassion for others.
I laughed a lot at 13:14 but actually... Yep, They do meet (and quite a lot) at societies or clubs, not very secret ones but very real ones 😅 Check those Bilderberg meetings and stuff to be sure, just try to avoid weird theories about it so I don't sound crazy by mentioning their existence haha
BTW I'm just adding a little extra (non requested) information about that part, I'm not contradicting any point that the video made about them just doing what's natural to keep maintaining the status quo / Ballance. He got that part right haha
I just want to say thank you so much for your video essays and your book. You have helped me so much with how I build my world, what details I need to consider, and your insight has truly helped me become better as a writer and storyteller. You have also shown me how tied our story-telling is to real-world events, people, and societies. Nothing happens in a vacuum and in addition to becoming a better writer, I feel like I have a better understanding for how HISTORY IS COMPLICATED. Thank you do much!!
9:27 Just for the record, Marxist analysis does take all of this into account. There are concepts such as "false consciousness", and "petty bourgeois liberalism", that correspond to the things you described in this section.
Thanks for the good laughs at the start. Dat was gud, comrade!
Some possible examples of the American enforcement of its class system.
1) Legal Barriers: harsh and biased criminal sentencing
2) Cultural Barriers: lack of education & practical knowledge (sex education, budgeting, investing, etc)
3) Cronyism: nepotism
4) Less Powerful Dependent on Powerful: low wages
5) Meaningless Concessions: popular vote in president election
6) Violent Force: police violence
7) Ostracism: not sure about this one, any suggestions?
8) Economic Monopolies: Iron Triangle, Citizens United vs FEC
9) Artificial Scarcity of Resources: overpriced drugs
10) Propaganda: liberal and conservative media
That is good summary.
7) Ostracism: Calling someone a communist if they advocate for expending social safety nets. Or calling someone un-patriotic or saying that they hate America if they bring-up the issues listing above
The point about using a specific resource to control the population in a world with magic is demonstrated really well in the Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson. I don't know if you've read them but I highly recommend them.
"The illuminati, I guess"
There was so many references, I love it.
You know welcome to the rich, powerful and shady... is exactly how they kick off Davos each year?
Great video as always! I started writing down / summarizing your points lately and it is truly amazing how well structured, easy to understand and yet dense with lots of helpful and important information your videos are.
I also like your worldbuilding videos because it helps me look at our world in a more analytical way and that is really interesting. I am looking forward to part 3!
In Chronicles of Terras the class system is and isn't unique.
Those who can use magic are near the top, with priests, and others dedicated to Gods being at the top as they are generally given powers, and favor being a sort of mortal patron that last only for a generation. They stay in that upper class, and after their time is up they go up a spot as they begin to train, and help the new one(s)
However, that is the only thing that is similar around the world. Each empire, and kingdom is different. In the Valentine Empire being a member of a house denotes your class, with House Blue being the upper, and Red being the Lowest?and seem as nothing more than am insult. Using those colors are also a means of insulting, complimenting, or paying someone.
And in the Holy Terrasian Imperium, the class system is based more on Merit, and family ties (similar to Rome in that sense), and it is extremely easy to go up, or down.... however, it is extremely difficult to get into the tippy top, the Merchants families and Senators. The emperor gives them a lot of powers, and free reign over their provinces in exchange for stuff as Humanity values equality, and justice more than anything (due to the many genocides, and injustices garnered agaisnt them to the point where they worship any human in power, such as the emperor, and the senate.)
the "house on fire" sketch would have reached perfection when the other dude would have concluded with something like "you know it's also quite warm at in my house and do you see me complaining?"
I want an April Fools episode where he just Bulls the whole episode.
This is helpful for me, because in the book I'm working on right now, the main character is from one city-state that got destroyed, and as 50-something man has lived in the city-state he escaped to, and their class structures and cultures are very different. In City A, it's based on ancient Near Eastern civilizations and ancient Egyptian civilization. The king is kind of a figurehead, and magical priests do all the actual ruling, including controlling magic so that only their hand-picked apprentices are allowed to learn it. My MC was one such apprentice, but he ran away as a teenager when the city was destroyed.
Where he flees to, I'll call City B. This is based on a southern European medieval/Renaissance coastal city. The city is more modern, it's a time of inventiveness, rapid trade, the rapid accumulation of wealth, and by using his magic, the MC becomes a court wizard, defending this city from invasions and raids, which helps it become one of the most prosperous kingdoms in the world. It is a society that has some religion, but the nobles and king don't take it all that seriously. Since a few noble families have within recent decades accumulated so much wealth, they are able to pressure the king into doing things for them, such that sometimes he feels like their servant - he has to appease them because they're powerful enough to usurp him and install a new king that they do like. And the king wants to create a republican government after he dies, as he has no heir. But he tells my MC about this, but deliberately keeps this plan (which is in his will) secret from the nobles. Because he thinks if it were revealed, the nobles would simply have him killed, and would fight a civil war among themselves for the throne. He also thinks that if they all think they have a shot at being chosen to inherit the crown after he dies, they will behave a little nicer, because they want to get on the king's good side. But recent prosperity has also made them spoiled, especially their children. They've become bored, in the absence of any real enemies to fight, and that boredom makes them prone to debauchery and frivolity. They become obsessed with fashion and gambling, kind of like the court of Versailles just before the French Revolution. So this City B has had nobles and a king for a long time, but history has changed their character and whether the king or the nobles had more power, which in the past might have favored a strong king with the power of the nobles being more limited. It's also of concern that the royal house is down to one member, the king, who never married, kind of like Queen Elizabeth I, and that causes instability and conflict over what will happen when the king dies.
"It's as if millions of Marxists suddenly cried out in terror..." ... and then you provide a completely Marxist interpretation of why people tolerate oppression! Not criticising, it's just weird that everyone thinks they're going against Marx when they're honestly describing the exact things Marx highlighted.
Got a new subscriber in me. Came over from the Naming places video and... well. Yep. Im hooked less than 2 minutes into this video 😂😂😂
Getting distracted from the point of this video by the fact that that's a *really* unusually big Scout Cavalry rush. Normally by that point you throw in some archers or something, but that person's just going for it.
Realtalk: "Okay, the revolution won't be this video, haha, jokes!" *proceeds to spend 20 minutes talking about how the ruler class unjustly maintains its power over the masses*
(I also think the Ottoman state is a bit miscategorised in its mention but that's. A whole thing, and not really unique to this vid, so whatever)