On Worldbuilding: Religions [ polytheistic l Avatar TLA l Game of Thrones l Cthulhu ]
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
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Cool worldbuilding article by CAgrippa: worldbuilding.stackexchange.c...
I am so excited to see what you guys have made :D Thanks for watching subfuries.
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"So, how was the world created in your religion?"
A wizard did it.
Kathy Kat
A wizard did it.
"But who-" It's wizards all the way down.
And that is the actual religion in the Earthsea cycles (the wizard Segoy spoke the world into being).
What came first-the wizard or the wizard?
Another wizard, obviously
Wizardception
“I find your lack of faith disturbing” is easily my favorite line in the entire star wars universe. In one line, the major antagonist of the story sets up the following ideas:
A.) Belief in the force is religious in nature.
B.) Not everyone in the universe buys into it.
C.) The religion crosses the boundary between the “good guys” and the “bad guys”
D.) Using the force requires faith in its power, whether you’re on the dark side of light side of the force.
E.) Despite the fact that it’s ancient and some feel that it’s outdated, it is incredibly real and absolutely relevant to the world of the story.
In my opinion, this line paints Vader as some cardinal of a very powerful, corrupt and evil Church, but a Church with a benevolent facade; some high-ranking cosmic Dark!Catholic priest (that would make the Emperor kinda like the Pope). Imagine a story like Star Wars but in the real world with Dark!Catholics having magical power and corrupting Europe to their ways, and Luke leading a wiccan pagan rebellion against it...
@Silent Knight In my eyes, he's more like to be of Cathar "Good Christians", than of Protestantism =) With those alternate!Catholics believing in jealous, angry and abusive deity of Old Testament, and those alternative!Cathars ditching him for the loving deity of New Testament.
Come to think of it: isn't Old Testament deity a top-notch Sith, with all that passion, anger and jealousy of his? =)
It also could be a comment on disbelief in general, even in a very tangible and real (in universe) force that a moment later was choking him. It also demonstrates that the admiralty of the Galactic Empire doesn't necessarily have respect for their emperor, just the might of the Empire that isn't contingent on The Force.
Vader wasn't really the antagonist so much as a narrative driver but I see how he could be considered one
@ckl Well remember, the Emperor took over the galaxy through political scheming and democratic election. Not everyone knows he is a Sith, so they probably respect him, they just don’t respect Vader the blunt instrument of the Emperor’s power and they don’t respect him because they see him as no different from a Jedi who is on their side. They wouldn’t respect the Force because all the Jedi are dead, and most people would never have seen it being used. Also they know it is a tool of the Jedi, and if they were so powerful then why are they all dead?
"Tim the World Builder" sounds like a great god to build a religion around
I think in WoW that position is the world forger
[Insert World Anvil Sponsorship] Light up the Forge!
You could make a religion out of this.
Sounds like everything I already knew, but 20 minutes long....
@@Cats777
no dont
lol you beat me to it i was gonna say that
There is just one rule you cannot break, if you have a sky god, they have to fight to fight a giant serpent. No complaining, everyone else follows the rule, even Tolkien.
Wait did Uranus (sky incarnate) fight a giant snake?
@@himboghost629 Zeus did
Rayquaza is next level, a sky god AND a giant serpent
Tolkien? When did Manwë fight a serpent?
The same thing but different phrasing: any lightning god is required to fight a dragon too
"Religion is complicated."
Most true statement of the day, Tim XD
DEUS VULT INFIDEL
WizardToby occam's razor
*Deus Vult intensifies*
*sabaton last stand screeching in the background *
I have a Great Courses lecture on the History of Science. When the Professor got to the whole "Religion vs Science" thing, first thing out of his mouth, and I paraphrase, "Science is complicated, religion is complicated, the historical relationship between science and religion is... complicated."
One of my favourites is that the mesopotamians had a minor deity of brewery, another for brickwork and a third for sheep.
I once wrote down a pantheon based on tarot cards, with each god being one card.
Different groups interpret these cards and thus gods differently
Oh wow! That's a beautiful concept and quite esoteric. Good luck!!
@@lesteryaytrippy7282 it's working pretty well so far.
divided them into big primordial gods
(the world, wheel of fortune, and death)
major gods (most of them)
and archangels (high priestess, hierophant, justice, hanged man)
for the rest, it kinda writes itself.
@@alecchristiaen4856 omg do you have an update I would love to hear more
@@alecchristiaen4856 me too
no way thats so cool!!! id like to read about the pantheon :o
"Are you just telling me your religion?" I say to the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses showing up at my house.
lmao
Or to the redditors when you post a comment even remotely mentioning the bible.
Also _literally everyone_ Spain, Portugal, and Britain colonised.
"Have you heard about our lord and savior Mithras?"
@@YataTheFifteenth yes thank you lol
9:10
To use a monotheistic example, this is actually how the Egyptian pantheon came to be. One city state expanded and conquered other settlements with existing religious beliefs, so the compromise off was “you’re not joining of your free will, but we’ll throw ya a bone and let you keep your god.”
My favorite example of this is the Fayyum, a lake city with a large population of Crocodiles. These crocodiles are revered as guardians of the river, and this river needed protection as it was critical to the survival of that people group. Thus their regional god, Sobek, is a warrior who is depicted through crocodiles. These folks literally worshipped crocodiles as guardians of the river.
By incorporating this religion into the existing pantheon, you secure both their loyalties and a warrior group. The drawback here is that the strong regional identity can ultimately backfire.
Having a degree in religion can confirm, its complicated af. And somehow real life religions make way less sense than fictional ones.
Makes sense. Fictional religions are designed to serve a narrative purpose. Real-life religions just kind of happen over time.
also fictional religions have just one or two authors and they are allowed to change things as the see fit to fill plot holes. irl religions tend to be rather resistant to retconning, typically requiring that there be more people that want the change than can be conveniently burned at the stake.
Its somehow the opposite in practice, go to any church listen to what they have to say in regards to how they interpret the bible, then go down the street to another church of the same denomination and I guarantee they will have radically different views and not even realize it. If there can be Jews for Jesus anything is possible and reality is certainly stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense. Reality has no such limitation.
You're right there. Fictional religions shouldn't make too much sense. They should provide their worshippers with something (from magical power to simply comfort), but they shouldn't be too "smooth".
religion doesn't necessarily have to be focused on a "god" or higher power for it to still be used. for example, fascist or dictatorial governments will often use religious-like structures and rituals to keep everyone in line, making sure you show devotion to the great leader. and, like the star wars example from the start, the jedi and sith don't worship the force, and the force is not a god. but they are both considered "religions" within the story, because they follow strict moral codes that come into conflict from how the force should be used.
I think Star Wars is a fun series, but the Force is so complicated... it's spoken of as having a WILL, which is an aspect of personalities (boulders don't have volition), but also described as impersonal, so... weird.
Mentioning the Force is an interesting point because it is based on Buddhim and Daoism. Classical Buddhism is essentially atheistic. Later developments added gods, demons, etc. in some forms of Buddhism, but they are all in the same boat as humans, stuck in samsara(death/rebirth/death) so there is no point in getting too involved with them. Daoism is complicated in its view of gods (and everything else). There are spiritual forces and the Eight Immortals etc., but the Daoist isn't so much about following deities as he is in following the Dao philosophy. Confucianism is also called a religion and a philosophy. Lip service is paid to the Court of Heaven, but it is more about a way of life and a social/ethical theory than anything else. Of course, popular Chinese religion often inserts various local spirits and gods, but the more formal, classical versions of these religions/philosophies have never been too concerned with deities.
Mark Murphy The Force in Star Wars (in Legends a least) can be divided into three parts, each embodied by the Ones (with a fourth that tacked itself on). These are the Daughter (Ashla), who embodies the light side, the Son (Bogan) who embodies the dark side, and the Father who embodies the universal force (it's basically the neutral side that keeps the other two in balance). The fourth is the Mother (Abeloth) who embodies chaos to the order of the Father. Abeloth was locked away by the other three after she came to be and destroyed their empire, ever since they just kinda hanged out on Mortis until they all died in the Clone Wars, which eventually lead to Abeloth getting free (whether any of the four will stay dead after they were all killed is not quite clear). The Daughter as the light side essentially represented creation and peace, the Son destruction and war, while the Father was balance and order. This is most basically represented by what the followers of their different parts of the Force could do (they were largely forgotten by the galaxy so they didn't have worshipers per se but different groups did call upon the sides of the Force they embodied). The light side users were best at healing, dark side users were the best at destruction, and while their were never really any pure universal force user, the members on each side that used it could do thing like see into the future or past and even affect things there to some extent. The will of the Force seems mostly how the Triad feels something should happen (mostly being the Father). Oh, and Abeloth kinda just represents chaos and annihilation, if she stays in one place long enough reality kinda gets a little warped. There's also the Font of Power and Pool of Knowledge where the power and knowledge of the universe take shape (these are how Abeloth became part of the Ones), there's also a lake filled all the souls of the dead, and a dagger/sword thing that can actually harm and kill the Ones. The Ones were apparently known as the Celestials during the time of their empire. The Force itself exists whether or not the Ones exist but they kinda gave it shape and defined it and it's will. The interpretations of the Force that so many different groups have in Star Wars is how they came to see it, since the Ones had long ago just disappeared. That's kinda a basic run through the reasons the Force is divided into sides and has a "Will" in Star Wars legends.
I personally think that The Force in Star Wars is more based off of Zoroastrianism than either Daoism or Buddhism because, while both of the latter two focus on the neccisity of having both Light AND Darkness in your life in order to achieve true balance. Zoroastrianism on the other hand teaches that The Light is entirely good, while The Darkness is entirely evil, which seems to be more in line with the theological philosophy of The Jedi Order.
Dustwarewolf 55 That is the view of the Jedi Order, but (in Legends mostly) most Star Wars stories show how they came to have that philosophy and how narrow minded, hypocritical, and weak it made them, since the dark side wasn't necessarily evil, it's just that most if not all of it's followers were at least seen as such by everyone else, because it's the side of aggression, power, and fury, mostly being predisposed to destruction, with it's use generally having a rapidly corrupting effect on it's users. Not all dark side users are evil, and the dark side itself isn't evil, it's just very, very dark. Though admittedly the original trilogy does give the impression that you gave, The Force was based of Buddhist and Doaist beliefs originally.
Sneezed, immediately heard "like how we say 'bless you' when someone sneezes." Freaky precision.
People creating gods based on their environments is something I needed to hear for a story I'm writing. Everything is finally coming together, thanks.
You should make a "how to make a fight scene" video
how to write a fight scene*
Eric Cristo, my bad
Bowenarrow Esquire More like how to choreograph
I've seen a really interesting video on this topic before: ua-cam.com/video/rEn0x1DCk4A/v-deo.html
Meltdown 81 There is more to good fight scenes than choreography, and this channel tends to focus a lot more on narrative aspects so... Yeah.
on the Mythopoeia, the anime Noragami includes a bit of the reversal of it. the MC Yato was once a god of war, but with japan's peace he became forgotten as a war god, the only way he could continue to exist was as a god of basically odd jobs. so long as he got payed and remembered, he'd do the task asked, whether that be freeing a person from the influence of an evil spirit, or finding a lost cat.
But yeah, nice little media example of it.
Oh I did something like that in a story once. A desert had engulfed a city in a world where Gods are immortal but their power depends on the faith their people have in them, and he was left as a figure in a tattered robe, blind and clawing at the sand that had taken his city from him with hands worn down to bone.
Terry Pratchett did something similar to his gods too. The Hogfather, which is a parallel version of Santa Claus, used to be the god of rebirth and resurrection until people stopped making sacrifices to make the sun rise. So he took on a new job as a giver of gifts, spreading joy and hope during the cruel winters. As Pratchett puts it, "Old gods need new jobs". :)
Actually yato is the god of calamity
Japanese right wingers want to put him back in business.
@@CruelestChris That's actually very sad.
"Am I fictional?!" That made me laugh harder than anything has all day. Thank you for that.
In Percy Jackson, a god fades away if everything they stand for is gone.
Trump: what if I pollute the world so much I kill Zeus and Poseidon?
This is how real world mythology works. The god of Mammoths probably existed at some point but died when the mammoths died
@@couchpotato4928 No it doesn't. If you think you have any idea on how Pantheons work, You don't. Because there is no real definition of what a god is. Some Religions portray gods as nature personified, or alegories (Norse). Some as powerful people with their own fellings and thoughts (Greek). Some as a hibryd of those (Egiptian). Some have gods as Living elements, only vessels the elements use as a form, While some as just rulers of forces, Where the fire god has authority over fire no more, than a mortal king over steel.
@@d4n737 I don’t understand your point. If a god is meant to represent something, and that thing fades away, people will forget about it, stop worshipping the god, and the god will fade away too. Is that not how it would go? I won’t pretend to be an expert on pantheons, but I see no reason why this wouldn’t happen
@@couchpotato4928 Ah, you mean sociologically.
if if it's the other way around, then, well People are stubborn. If a god partons a celebration, and they no longer celebrate it, they're still gonna believe in the god, Maybe under a diffrent name, domain, etc.. Cultures change and gods will be depicted as patrons of diffrent things over time.
Dishonored has one of the coolest fictional religions I’ve seen.
The Abbey of the Everyman, Witches, simple sailors, all believe some of the same basics *but* they interpret it differently.
The Abbey chooses to take the Outsider’s nature and resist it (while vilifying him over generations).
Witches say ‘forget the Outsider’ and go straight to the Void for power.
Sailors don’t even touch the Void, but carve the bones of the creatures they catch as good luck charms.
Then there’s people with the Mark, who may not even like the Outsider or know much about the Void, but they have insane power.
people with the mark also meet the outsider personally, and he too has his own worshippers and cults, hence why you find all the shrines to him.
I just love how the only real religious organization we see is devoted to hating the only godlike entity we see.
i think the abbey defines good not as some morals or goals, but as simply a lack of perceived evil. hard labour and dedication=good, taking the short way out or using magic=evil.
Justin Helms I like the abbey seeing how they are the remnants of the cult that created the outsider
kamenkewl remember you don't need the mark of the outsider for him to interact with you, because Lurk didn't have the mark
I found the Dark Souls games have a very interesting way of presenting mythos/religion. While most information is provided through item descriptions, there's still a TON of details hidden in things like the level design, enemy behavior, and even the covenant system. It's done in a way to show the players that the world was rich with culture, ideals, and beliefs LONG before their character arrived.
And even though this is a game with an unconventional narrative, I still find it to be a really solid example of worldbuilding.
EXACTLY. I hope to adopt some aspects of Dark Soul's mythos into my own worldbuilding.
Yeah, Religion in Dark Souls is work because you can literally meet that god and kill him and use his holy soul on useless weapon...
Aren't all the gods dead or crippled in the Darksouls universe?
@@tylernelson5656 Well yes but actually no
@@spawnofchaos9422 lol memes used as an accurate response are my favorites
I love how Lovecraft made his Mythos. There are the gods of the earth that we all know, above them there are the Other Gods, above them there are the Outer Gods, and there are also other groups of Gods like the Ancient Ones. So there are many groups which coexist, part of the same pantheon, yet markedly separate ones, and even the Gods have their own Gods which they worship, and above all that there is Azathoth, who is the “One God”, but is an Idiot God, mindless and uncaring, and all it does is sleep and dream, helping no one, caring about nothing, but is nonetheless the absolute creator of all things.
A fact that goes unrecognized a lot of the time is that Greek gods are canon to Lovecraft's Dream Cycle and by extension the Cthulhu Mythos.
I accidentally created a Pantheon in my story based around aspects of reality like life death time and space. I didn't realize the way I described them was like God's until after the fact
After ten minutes I took this from the video: "Religion is complicated"
Edit: Great video, loved the very well explained aspects of each point. Learning about Worldbuilding is probably my favourite series on this channel
Yeah. Religion is essentially never a simple or easy to explain subject. Any fictional religion that sounds like it's simple, even if it had an entire doctrine consisting of one paragraph in the present language? That is a lie. The kind of doctrinal disputes like "Is Jesus God? Separate from God? A part of God?" or "What parts of the Bible are canon?" from the Abrahamic faiths history give solid examples of how divisive it gets. In general Religion serves one of two roles in stories: as an element of some actual plot point. (IE: members of X faith use this particular spice in their dishes, victim had eaten this spice hours before death.) in which case you can generally avoid having to detail it much if it doesn't show up again... Or it's a part of the setting. If it's the latter, it is only right to flesh out that religion properly. Where things get truly thorny is settings where you have a real religion (or sect their of) around, especially when it needs to deal with an out of context for real life thing. As an example: How do good Catholic people deal with finding out they are Wizards in the setting of Harry Potter? Is there a sect of Catholicism that found a way to reconcile the texts and doctrine with this new reality? Is there a 'Wizard-Pope' and whole other set of doctrinal works specifically removed from the rest of the religion (IE the accurate to real life one) because they addressed this? It can be fascinating to consider, but it's an extremely touchy subject compared to a religion built from whole cloth, even if it borrows major elements from real religions. (For example, the faiths of the Kushan people in the setting of Homeworld, which have pilgrimage to holy sites as a major component.)
DEUS VULT INFIDEL!
@@poisondamage2182 dEUS vULT iNFIDEL!!!
Religion isn't that complicated:
1. Eris pads her chest
2. beware of the squirrel apocalypse
3. you should enter the next life shiny and chrome
Edit:
There was a spelling error as Sam Pew pointed out.
*Eris
And fight frog with water base attack
Ok, a little late, but better late then never, fixed the AEris Error.
And goddess wear invisible underwear
Hail Eris
19:45 there's an interesting book called City of Stairs which really explores this idea. A central plot point is that there was a vicious cycle where extremist followers would exaggerate certain traits of their gods, their reinterpretation would affect the gods, moderate followers would adjust their views to match the gods' new behavior, and then new subgroups would form which are extremist relative to the new normal.
City of Stairs, the subsequent novels, the new Founders Trilogy, and pretty much anything by Robert Jackson Bennett is simply incredible, beautiful, and awe-inspiring.
o.o
"[Christianity] didn't spread quite like this."
You have it going in completely the wrong direction: e.g., spread to England FROM Rome.
Dragon Age has one of the best religious systems I've seen in a work of fiction. There are essentially three prominent, well fleshed out religions in its world that affect how the characters act, and how politics operate, alongside a few other minor, but equally interesting religions.
DoktorApplejuce Abridged it Always seemed pretty standard for me... It feels like the catholic church.
And then we find out there are more from smaller tribes and we just get even more confused :v
Dragon Age has good ones, but I personally prefer The Elder Scroll's.
I'd say the Qun is Islam to be honest. The Qun has none of the 330 000 different gods or belief in re-encarnation or a philosophy of pacifism in the face of certain agressions.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the caste system lmao. Been some time since I last played any DA games. Yeah it's kind of a syncretistic religion.
Fine! I shall include Mishka god in my D&D religions
Ouroboros_13 there was an insanely powerful demon lord back in the 2nd edition named Mishka the Wolf-Spider, the first demon prince, way more powerful than Demogorgon
YIIIIIIIISSSSS
im mortal THAT'S IT. I'm OFFICIALLY making Mishka a little bear spirit/deity in my setting. Fuck it, I'm doing it. It has to be done! There's no other option!
@Ned Stark Have you of Ursa Minor. I think it will fit perfectly with the Russian name.
@@hectorvega621 you mean the name Ursula?
This is slowly becoming one of the richest internet channels of all time in my view. And I've been around.
Honestly love this kind of content! When I was a teenager I read a trilogy of books named The Saga of the borderlands but I don’t know how well would the style fare in english since something is always lost in translation . The world building is full of animism that makes you care for not only the characters but the world itself which seems to understand it is also in danger.
My favourite religion has to be the worship of the god Emperor from warhammer 40k. I think it is interesting how an atheist ended up as a god after failing in his crusade to med religion on a galaxy whide scale. By the way Hello Future me i recommend the Horus herasy book series if you like Dune.
In all honesty, the Chaos Pantheon (and by extension, the eldar pantheon) was always more fascinating to me. The idea that your actions , emotions and thoughts create genuine deities without you even realising their extent, and these in turn manipulate and feed off the collective consciousness is mythopoeia at its purist. It also seems fitting that our worst hell is the one we make for ourselves, hence the Big4
@@343-penitentnarrator8
The thing is in the backstory of the franchise it's made clear that they wouldn't have existed if two Godlike forces hadn't altered the balance of the warp. In doing so they twisted it behind belief.
@@xo-1320 Fair point, but ultimately it would have happened regardless. Sure the War in Heaven kick-started the turmoil, but the nature of the warp, and the sentient beings of the universe, means something like the chaos pantheon would have eventually occurred regardless. Don't forget that the big four encompass positive emotions as well as negative or base ones. Honor for Khorne, Vitality for Nurgle, Joy for Slaanesh, Hope for Tzeentch, etc. Some are even shared between them. The idea is that the baser emotions of rage, excess, fear of death and ambition tend to be stronger, and hence coalesce stronger in the warp. This may be because these are primal emotions. The writers are therefore pragmatic, cynics or just as likely just thought it would be more fun for the setting, (which it is).
If you want a more "realistic", or balanced pantheon, in the same settings, check out the old eldar religion, or their Warhammer fantasy elf counterparts, where the gods are\were deliberately crafted by them to reflect all the aspects of their nature, and hence give them the power to advance and further their society. It's more akin to the Greek or Norse mythology as a result
@@343-penitentnarrator8 All that begs the question... can the Warp be fixed? Can mortals hope to fix things and undo the crap that the Eldar created?
@@Archone666 Well, the Eldar only strictly created one bit of crap by birthing Slaanesh through incessant, unrepentant murder fucking. You can perhaps lay the enslaver plague on their door but that's really the turmoil created by the near apocalyptic War in Heaven and the nature of the Warp which, as per my previous post, would have caused the issues with the warp seen in "modern" 40k regardless.
To answer your question, I suppose in theory it is, but would require either galactic genocide (to destroy Chaos' source of food) or , even more unlikely, a herculean effort of will by every member of every species, 24 hrs a day, to essentially think them away and colossal amounts of self discipline to contain their baser emotions or relegate them to some other parts of their psyche. The Crafteworld and early eldar, plus the interex, tau (by sheer luck of psychology) and a handful of other civilizations have managed this or something similar and all it does is allow them to deal with chaos and possibly give them an actual afterlife (actually no longer possible, in retrospect). To get every species to do this, let alone just humanity, is borderline impossible. Sapient nature just doesn't seem to work that way.
For a good example of how "RELIGION IS COMPLICATED" in fiction, check out the comic book series 'The Mice Templar'. The protagonist mice worship a deity named Wotan and have religious beliefs and institutions very similar to Judaism and Christianity, but are bitterly divided between conservative and liberal interpretations of the same core tenets, which is further complicated by character development as individual characters on both sides often begin gravitating towards more moderate or hard-line views as the story progresses. The antagonist rats, bats, and weasels all theoretically worship a being named Donas who has strong parallels to the Satan, but go about it very differently. The rats have an organized caste of priests called druids who conduct large-scale rituals, while the bats revere Donas and hate Wotan but have no religious institutions (perhaps due to their race's opinion of themselves as semi-divine), and the weasels clearly value their political goals over any religious scruples- at one point openly threatening to switch sides and join the Templar if the druids attempt a theocratic coup.
Fair Drinking game:
Take a shot whenever Deus Vault is displayed on screen
"What's the afterlife like?" and "Is MISHKA THERE?" hits way harder these days. I'm genuinely crying about it! IS there an afterlife? IS Mishka there??? I don't know 😭
10:56
I absolutuly love how much detail and time you take to express your thoughts within regards to writing.
I've been writing for many years out of hobby and fun. But now I want to actually make something of these writings.
Thank you for the perspective and insight :D It will serve well in my adventure.
An interesting story is the manga/anime Noragami. I mention it because it focuses on a minor god in Japan and his attempts at getting followers, with key plot points being the life/death of a god and how gods change over time. It's great fun and has fantastic action when necessary.
Jacob Borg I'm still waiting for season 3. X.X
It also fits the description that the MC was a wargod and because he's no longer needing with peace, then he's forgotten by everyone
UnknownDane He's a god of War and Calamity, who's trying to be seen as a Messenger god and god of Fortune. Kinda makes some wonder if the gods of various pantheons liked their characterizations or realms of power.
It's actually based 99% on the real life religion
After the third clip of Sabaton’s The Last Stand, I had to hit that subscribe button
"For the glory of tzeentch"
"all is dust"
Blood for the Blood God
The Emperor protects!
I remember reading a short story where magic was real, as was a polytheistic pantheon of gods - however, the gods distrusted magic so priests and monks were completely nonmagical. Magic users were either actively not-worshipping gods through their use of magic or were worshipping gods heavily as a sort of penance for using magic. The god of the harvest was offered a significantly higher sacrifice from the local seer in order to please her, for example.
This meant most communities only had one magic user and had higher levels of prayer in areas where more mages were. A magic school had basically been turned into a sprawling cathedral necessity of keeping the gods appeased.
There was also a book where the only real god that was explicitly stated (although it was obvious other gods existed) was the technically malicious god of misfortune, who was fortunately very easily appeased by small offerings such as saluting magpies and knocking on a doorframe as one passed through it. No one worshipped this god because they didn't realise it existed, and only believed that their offerings were superstition
Do you remember what those stories are called?
ALL HAIL MISHKA! *(battle cry)*
Kathy Kat Shh.. Mishka is Mishka
The Grande Alien: What is your religion?
People of Earth: Football.
Love the addition of The Last Stand by Sabaton!
Me: *cries* "I just... love religious worldbuilding so much you guys. So much."
I don't think I've commented on one of your videos yet, but seriously love them.
I have a recommendation for a book series- nothing to do with religion, just worldbuilding in general. The Temeraire series by Naomi Novik takes place in a world with dragons, during the Napoleonic Wars. The series starts off with a primarily European perspective, and despite certain quirks among dragonrider society, the history seems familiar. Dragons are basically owned by the state and are used almost exclusively for war, and the nations of Europe seem more or less the same as we know them. As the series moves on, however, we are introduced to societies with different answers for where dragons fit in to society, and the history has changed more drastically. I like this series not just for all the different ways in which dragons are used and affect the world, but how the reader is eased into more and more fantastical settings.
And, I know this would be a touchy subject, but you've done religion now so whatever- gender roles in worldbuilding. Some stories just default to generic traditional Western gender roles. Some say that they are gender equal, but fail to play it out in the story itself or in the characters. Some say that they are unequal, but one plucky princess gets to buck all the rules and that makes her better than those girly girls! Some are actually just a fairly gender equal setting (The Elder Scrolls tends to be this, moreso than most fantasy settings). Some have roles resembling real-world societies but actually engage with what this means for the characters (ASoIaF is very good about how different people work with and around a patriarchal society). And some have completely unique gender roles that bear little resemblance to our old familiar models! Just some food for thought.
Anyways, still and probably will always adore this series!
I'm not really the biggest fan of religion in books because often times it leads to visions. I don't like visions much. They seem to be a writer's cheat tool to give characters information they needed for the plot but would otherwise never have gotten, or have them be places when the plot needs them to be.
What I am a fan of though, is your channel and this video. So good.
At the same time, it's easy to simply not include visions. Game of Thrones does this, as does Avatar- although in this case there is some communing with spirits. The trick is to not be lazy in the writing. If a vision or similar device is used, it should be consistent with the way the fictional world works and not come out of the blue as a literal deus ex machina. If it does come from nowhere, that means the writer had steered the story in such a way that he needed an intervention to redirect it.
Visions are best used (consistently within the plot) to highlight a character's connection to something, or to demonstrate a conflict within a character, such as Luke Skywalker seeing visions of his friends dying and being unable to let go of his attachment to them. That vision moved the plot along in a non-lazy way that led to meaningful events and character development.
Tobias Winters I see your point, but in most of the cases I've encountered it does what I said with the whole info thing, or gives a character the last piece of the puzzle at just the right time. Visions seem to just not be my thing, though if the rest of the book is good, I always tolerate it. Anyway, appreciate the view on the matter, espessialy since its different
I was thinking of having a vision that wouldn't show the future but something happening at that exact moment. Something they know they have to prepare for.
Imagine conflicting visions, Gods taking advantage of visions by sending false ones. One way you could handle it there.
Fact check for use in future videos: the Silent Sisterhood follow the Stranger rather than the Mother in ASOIAF.
In 40k, they follow the God-Emperor like all faithful members of humanity.
I ended up thinking along a lot of these lines when creating a religion for my homebrew world for D&D. Nine gods, one for each alignment, each one was equally as important as the others but... of course, each society in the world favored a different one. I wanted there to be one underlying question for my players though; No matter what society they went to, all nine gods were the same, all nine gods were given shrines and religious worship... however their appearance changed depending on the nation they were in. In the human nation, each of the gods were depicted as humans, in the elven nation they were elves, in the goblin nation they were various types of goblinoids. My hope was that it might be an interesting enough plot point for my players to want to find out more.
Was there more?
call me narrow-minded, but “societies” that favor any chaotic alignment seem a walking contradiction to me. Any functioning society would only really be lawful.
Ooh! I like the drawing animations, and once again, great video, especially on a topic that always interests me in fictional stories.
Raptorus77 Saaame.
Actually, tbh I watch his videos bc of his attractive human form.
My main gripe with many fictional polytheisms is how they fail to truly understand what that means. So often does it become monotheism, particularly Christianity with its ecclesiastic hierarchy and churches and cathedrals, but with more Gods. That is not how natural polytheisms usually work, even ones like Roman polytheism which have a relatively centralised system with the Pontifex Maximus on top. Even then, temples in other places will still have their own traditions, their own myths or variations thereof,... Priests also do not necessarily have to be religious experts, the main body of priests throughout ancient Hellas were elected officials elected to serve as a priest on behalf of the community, without needing to be an expert on theology beyond what they needed to know to do their jobs.
Polytheisms also do not really tend towards exclusivism as monotheism does. After all, if we already have this many Gods, who are we to deny the existence of other people's Gods? Gods can be adopted through contact with other peoples, Gods may decrease in significance or influence, etc. There's also no such thing as religious wars as we today understand it, as a war to impose a certain belief on heretics. Polytheism is naturally open to various interpretations, theologies, etc., even seemingly mutually exclusive ones. They only really spread as the people who practice it spread, either through migration, warfare to conquer a territory for the conquerors to live in and subjugate or oust the former inhabitants if any, or through contact and cultural assimilation with a prestige culture (cf. the Hellenistic period of the spread or Hinduism), etc. People worship Gods in part also because those are the Gods their people worship. Because it is just what you do as a member of that people, that community (Japan is a good example of this).
Another thing people often get wrong is that being devoted to a particular God or group of Gods does no preclude one to worship others. Just because a smith will put great emphasis on a Smith God, that does not mean they offer no worship or does not partake in rituals or festivals dedicated to other Gods, that they will neglect household worship, that he won't also worship Gods related to business and wealth and good fortune. In polytheism, Gods are not usually exclusivist, they do not own their worshippers or devotees like a slavemaster owns slaves. Gods are also not usually limited strictly do Their domain. Aphrodite, for example, is not just a Goddess of Love, but also fertility and sex, warfare, civil harmony. Hephaistos is not just a Smith and inventor, He is also the Lame God and as such would be appealing to people with physical disabilities, regardless of whether they worked in industry or smithing. Gods can also do things for their devotees not usually considered part of Their domain. Hephaistos might, for example, aid His devotees in their search for love and help them find a suitable mate. The Gods are not limited to strictly their domains any more than Hello Future Me is strictly and only a UA-camr, he is also a son, a boyfriend, a loyal slave of Supreme Leader Mishka (all hail Mishka), etc. The Gods are individuals with Their own wants, needs, agendas, etc.
As to a difference between Eastern and Western polytheism, there really isn't any. It is just polytheism. Westerners tend to view their ancient Gods as very humanlike partly because of literalistic readings of myths, which is not what ancient societies did. Particularly not the intelligentsia. There is a difference between sacred/mythical truth and historic/scientific truth, which was commonly understood. When you really get into it, in actual practice, Western and Eastern polytheisms are not that different, as can be testified by modern Western polytheists reviving our ancestral polytheisms. Similarly, in practice, polytheism, animism, shamanism, etc. really are not different things, they are one and the same thing, and the distinction is mainly Western, monotheist-dominated scholarly views, not actual reality.
This was a whopper of a comment, but it contained some really interesting points. Thank you for posting all this!
Yeah, being a practicing polytheist means I have quite a lot to say about the topic :P
Agathokles Martinios what pantheon you warship?
I am a Hellenic polytheist, though being a Fleming and thus of Germanic background, I have been thinking of also exploring Germanic polytheism. I have received a nudge in that direction through divination, which adds to my wish to explore it.
Agathokles Martinios you offer sacrifices (if it was done way back when)? You pray etc? Whats it like? I always wondered if people worship greek pantheon etc
Watching this made me feel much better about the religious system/pantheon I built for my D&D games.
I was just couldn’t wait for the final “religion is complicated” DEUS VULT INFIDEL” 😆
I had a thought while watching this. What if there was a god that is seen as kind of like a servant to his people? Haven't thought out all the details on how this would work, but I thought it was an interesting idea.
Like the god is the one who is subservient and trying to gain favor instead of us little people? Maybe a commentary on collective strength over the might of one person?
A god among men?
I am kinda playing with this for my world, where gods are able to bind with a being into some kind of symbiosis, giving long life and unimaginable powers to the hosts.
However, the god might take controle, resulting in a weaker link or something, but that's still not entirely fleshed out since it might not play a role at all.
IceRiver1020 / J Girl
Watch Noragami Anime, I haven’t seen much but from what I’ve gathered. There are many gods, and each one needs supporters/prayers to gain strength. The main character is a lowly god with not 1 follower. So his power is minuscule in comparison. In his scenario he has to do favors and help humans as much as he can to boost his own standing.
Sound pretty similar to what you guys talk about so it might provide good insight.
The servant god relationship sounds somewhat similar to the idea of binding spirits, demons, and djinni that occasionally shows up in our mythologies. Especially djinni, since they can vary from being servitors and slaves to being powerful rulers and monarchs. The relationship they have is thus mostly of equals, but with so much mythology revolving around enslaved or bound djinni it certainly makes for a good case study when examining how that mythology might work.
The Spellwright trilogy by Blake Charlton has an interesting version of that. The various deities are given power by people praying to an Arkstone, which the god is tethered to. They can only get that power from the stone, and thereby stay alive, by fulfilling the prayers of the people who pray to them. So, a war deity would have to actively defend their people or attack their enemies, an agricultural deity would need to protect the crop from blight and bugs, and a sailing deity would need try to keep ships from getting wrecked for any number of reasons.
Also... Just.... go read that series. It's REALLY good. There's a level of wordplay to it that I could only sometimes wrap my head around, and it's super enjoyable, even without that grasp. Though I will warn, the grand finale of the whole thing is.... Unexpected.
Thank you for making this video. Right now I'm reworking my old fantasy novel and realized how bland and boring the word in it seems to be. The things you said in the video help me understand what mistakes I made and how to fix them.
Go for it!
I've always had this "Volcano" god in my head.
"God of the forge, of warmth, and once of destruction. To build in my name is my own honor, but to destroy comes a cost. If a weapon be forged for me let if be cast of the smith's blood or cursed be the metal 'til returned to the crucible. To call my name on the battlefield by he who cast not less than 1000 weapons ensure the enemy swallowed by my own forge at the cost of thine own"
A god of the forge who grants his followers, mostly blacksmiths and artists, immeasurable talent at metal work and a seeming invulnerability to heat/fire and the ability to cause them with ease. Blessed be the benevolent but if a weapon is to be forged with this skill you must submit at lease a drop of blood to the molten metal or anyone who uses it shall see it rust and shatter upon use and the curse will remain until it is returned to molten metal. the last part is a fable passed down where a blacksmith in a war torn region bargained with the God to defeat an invading army. He told the smith to call his name as they advanced and when he did the mountain's melted beneath the invaders feet in a cascade of molten rock. When the mortal returned to his shop the god burned the blacksmith alive for merely touching the furnace.
This god is mostly like Hephestus from greek mythology who made divine weapons for the other gods and was a great inventor. However one day he was annoyed with the requests and wanting a vacation he torched what is now a vast desert. When the gods realized what he had done their king took his powers from him until he forged a weapon 1000 times stronger than his already indestructible weapon.
His story is engraved in the culture in various mountain regions as a way of worship and lesson in humility as well as a vital part of their economy through trade and architecture which incorporates advanced metal work and mechanisms into their designs and nation securities
Thank you for your hard work. Was enjoyable to follow as a former theology student from a Christian Baptist background. Keep doing your great work UWU
excellent video Tim
Wtf where you here?
A few points to make. Firstly, there can be deities with different values towards the same things. You mentioned Athena, who was the Greek goddess of war, but Ares was also a god of war. But they were not incompatible, as they focused on different aspects of war (Athena focusing on strategy and tactics while Ares focused on bloodshed and slaughter).
Secondly, and this works a little better in monotheistic cultures, characters don't have to be good followers of their religion. Either they follow the rituals and don't follow the philosophy, or the other way around. For example, in the Godfather (and I know this isn't fantasy, but I don't have any other examples) Michael Corleone has people killed including (spoilers) is own brother-in-law and his biological brother, but he will also throw a party for his son taking communion for the first time (I know that's not the correct terminology for Catholics, but the other one would just be weird to type). He celebrates the rituals of his religion while violating some of its most widely accepted precepts, the Ten Commandments. Just because there is religion and the character follows it does not mean he actually believes it in any great amount.
Thirdly, I would warn people from creating religions in their fantasy stories that don't add to anything. You don't need to put one in if it doesn't do anything. If there is no religion that is the true religion, then it doesn't actually explain anything to the readers about how things should be. Leaving it out does make things simpler and can relieve the author of things they don't think they can handle or should handle. It isn't a necessary aspect of world building, and if you think I'm biased, perhaps I am but part of it is being sick of the Babylon 5 approach to religion, which was primarily written by an atheist. Pretty much, it's there and can make people act better or worse, and some aspects of it are grounded in fact, but there is no one true religion. It's more respectful than most takes on religion in fiction, even on real world religions, but he didn't understand it. There are some things that a writer should only write if they understand it, and religion is one of them as otherwise it's only going to end in misery for the reader. But I doubt anyone bothered reading this far, and that okay; opinions are a take it or leave proposition.
It's very difficult I would think for an author not to use fictional religion to endorse either their religion or anti-theism.
When it comes to the Greek god of war, Athena was more on the wisdom and strategy side of war, while Ares was on the fighting side of the issue.
Personally when it comes to fantasy and scifi, I have a hard time beleiving that a culture wouldn't have a religion, just from what I know of human history. However, I would agree I'd rather no religion than a badly written one.
Says Ares and Athena are not incompatible, then immediately describes how incompatible they actually are.
@@mvmsma , yeah, whoops. While I suppose a strategy could call for the bloodshed of Ares, I didn't say that. Ah well. Thanks for pointing that out.
*Particularly Pertinent to Polytheism*
That’s some tasty alliteration, friend Tim.
Just noticed a historical mistake; in the Old Kingdom the Sahara was still mostly a serengeti, it was likely the desertification that lead to the collapse
This is a good one for Dungeon Masters.
Your editing is actually improving, keep it up
"you could make a religion out of this"
I really love when creators invest so much into a topic, especially one complicated like this one. Keep doing the good work, I love your videos, greetings from D.R.
Started reading Dune a couple of weeks ago, great book! A must read really. Good example of religion/faith done right.
I am trying to do that now :)
PRAISE THE NINE!
Pedro Soares Divines or Ringwraiths?
Halo Nerd this was Divines.
Pedro Soares Good to know you are not an Orc
HAIL TALOS!
praise the eight. Talos worship is outlawed under the whitegold concordiate and you filthy nords should do well to remember that.
This is fantastic! I really appreciate all the word and research you put into these! Please keep doing more writing analysis/worldbuilding videos....and also ATLA!
A really interesting theory about Akatosh/Auri-El in the Elder Scrolls, which anyone who watches Fudgemuppet will know, is that he has been driven mad by both the multiple mythopoeic interpretations of him by different races as he exists in every culture on Nirn (or at least Tamriel), as well as the many Dragonbreaks that have occurred throughout history (where the timeline splits and re-converges), namely the Middle Dawn which lasted over 1000 years after the Alessian Order tried to separate his human and elven aspects into separate beings. Akatosh is the Dragon, time itself. 'Dragonbreak' literally refers the Dragon/time breaking, Akatosh himself being broken and put back together over and over. Pair that with the fact that maintaining linear time in an otherwise temporally unstable universe is a fairly monumental and stressful job. Gives a pretty interesting view of how gods may function, and how they and the universe they exist in can affect each other
They should make one-off, self contained 2-3 hour movies. "The Fall of Ancalagon", "Beren and Luthien", "Morgoth and Ungoliant", etc...
missinglink10001
With the right budget and directing The Silmarillion would make a killer miniseries. The question is whether to try to make a cohesive storyline, or film it as the abridged history docudrama it is.
I am now imagining David Attenborough or Ian McClellan doing the narrating for a docudrama. (Of course, Sir Christopher Lea would be the best choice but that is sadly no longer a possibility.)
Amazing work! If you happen to have any more to say on what you discussed in this video, feel free to, you've made some fascinating points!
This was amazing and I love how you drew from vastly different works of fiction for you arguments (although my inner GOT/ASOIAF fanaticism thought about how you could (and that you should) have used the series more as it encompasses many of your points, on the other hand my inner Elder Scrolls fanaticism was bummed out that while featured as background visuals, you didn't reference the series in your points).
Anyways...
All hail Mishka
Deus Vult! Infidels!
I'm actually working on these stuff for a RuneQuest campaign I just started. Since it's in the Paleolothic-Neolothic the belief system the people of that time has is everything. While watching your video I realized I followed pretty much all the stuff you've been talking about, specially about answering the three main questions about religion, so I think I'm doing a pretty good job on that. Also, because it's such an arcaic period, most of the conflicts come from those kinds of intepretations and the way the society shapes their system of beliefs.
Loved your video, keep the amazing content flowing.
Honestly sometimes I don’t know why I like your videos so much but I’m not complaining! Keep up the good work
The Empire Trilogy by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurts is one of my all-time faves for gorgeous worldbuilding, and I loved the religion-building in it as well. It's set in a much more Asian-inspired than Europe-inspired fantasy landscape, where there's almost no metal, there's a very strict social hierarchy in place, gods have very intense followers (you're introduced to the protag as she's about to take vows to become a follower of a goddess before Family Duty gets in the way), magic is real, there are giant sentient insects...god, I could flail about it all day.
Hey everyone! QotD: Which story has your favourite worldbuilding when it comes to spirituality and religion? My personal favourite is the Elder Scrolls, but the only reason that would stand out is if you are really into the lore. That series has a really interesting set up of spirits, gods, and religion. Also, I'm exhausted. I'm sorry if there are some mistakes in this video. I was up 36 hours straight getting it done, so, well, my brain went all blegh. GET ON WRITING AND WORLDBUILDING VOL II (the book with ALL the discussions we've had + tons of extra depth and detail) I linktr.ee/timhickson
~ Tim
Hello Future Me , you should sleep and take your time to make these videos. Trust me I found your channel a few days ago and have watched many of the videos, there definitely worth a waiting period with this level of quality.
Personally I’ve been trying to get into writing and your videos are really useful in understanding worlds, characters and stories.
I don't know if you have read Throne of Glass, but if not you should. It is a fantastic high fantasy series with excellent world building.
Any chance you could do Monotheistic Religions in Fiction next? I find this topic fascinating and this video was very well done.
You should definitely read the His Dark Materials series, it has one of the best views on religion I have ever seen in a book series
Another long but good series is the wheel of time, it's a fantasy series that does worldbuilding incredibly well and takes multiple views of the same monotheistic religion to the point that you can bearly tell that it's the same religion.
Hearing Tim talk about Dragonlance makes me very happy. It's my favorite and it doesn't get enough love.
I've listened to this video multiple times over the years, but damn today it hit different. So many lightbulbs just went off in my head. Thank you!
Genuinely thought you were going to say 9 episodes and I got so excited ;(
Question, do you play D&D? Because that's the primary reason I watch your world building videos, to help me build my world.
As with all of your writing videos, I found this extremely helpful. Thanks for sharing your work.
My favorite fantasy world is from the book "One Good Knight" by Mercedes Lackey
Oof, thank you for the book, Tim! Won't spoil which book it is, though. ;P
Edit:
Person: What's your religion?
Me: *Shows galaxy-winged Mishka*
Person: I'm interested.
Right on time! You always seem to make just the right video when I need it. I've been thinking a lot about what kind of religion/s I'll have in my world, how to implement it and what role it will play so this video was perfectly timed.
I was just starting to write a comment about the Thalmor and Mythopea when your note popped up on the screen. Always glad to see a shoutout to TES. ;)
Thank you this greatly increased my ideas in creating my fantasy novel
good thing you made this. i recently created a pantheon for the universe of my fantasy novel, now i can learn to incorporate it effectively if there's ever any mention of it
Probably my favourite series is the Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson. I love it so much because of the complicated but amazing worldbuilding especially the pantheon and how the gods interact with each other and other people! 💚
The ultimate video on building religions. Thanks for all your tremendous effort, Tim!
This was extremely useful! I'm currently constructing a Norseish mythology, and I'm grateful you put in so much effort for this video :3
This was really well made and has inspired me to go back to creating an old project I dropped
On writing is my favourite series on the channel and each episode that comes out just gets better and better, in both production, and being more entertaining and informing. I actually have a polytheistic religion in one of my stories, so this is sUper helpful right now. Thanks for teaching me so much!
Edit: Ever plan on making an episode on monotheistic religions?
8:45 - If you look up West African Dieties, you'll find out they faced the same treatment.
I have watched this and every time Tim says "Religion is complicated" I was filled with joy just by listening to 2 s of Sabaton's The Last Stand xD
PD: Coincidentally, I was wearing the T-shirt of that album while watching this :D
You asked for recommendations of books to ready with great world-building, and I think The Culture series by Iain M. Banks fits the bill. It's a far-future sci-fi setting, where the titular Culture is a utopic civilisation being run by super-advanced AI. It's interesting mainly in that while the Culture themselves rarely have any problems the focus of most of the novels is on their interaction with other civilisations, and how they attempt to use social engineering to steer them towards a brighter future; in this way the books do a lot of disassembling of what makes each society tick which is a very helpful case study for building your own fictional society from the ground-up.
Most of the books are only sequels in the loosest sense, they're mainly just a shared world so you can pick them up in whatever order. I recommend "The Player of Games" as a good starting point.
14:59 only true in modern times.
Most ancient polytheistic religions had a god who specifically patronized the monarch and in order to be legitimate a king had to please this god's priesthood. Of course he could go to war with other sects, but again only with the blessing of his patron deity. Ancient Greece was unusual in that, in most of the states, this wasn't true. However even there we see the mark of this practice. The word "tyrannos", originally meant a king who wasn't blessed by the appropriate god(s). It later evolved to mean a ruler who obtained their position by unlawful means more generally during the Classical period when the elites started to care less about religion. What is true about polytheistic religions is that there is at least one god whom they others don't like. Often all the gods in the pantheon basically hate each other because they represent opposing forces.
Sophie Jones What do you mean I modern times? What religion are you talking about? Hinduism?
So can you give me examples of King-patron gods?
I'm thinking about the ancient Mediterranean actually. Zeus in some Greek cities (most importantly for history: Macedonia), Jupiter in Rome, and Ammon in Egypt would all be good examples. In Egypt particularly, military conquest did not automatically grant political power: and the Assyrians found that out the hard way. This way of checking the power of what was otherwise an absolute monarch seems to have been adopted after the defeat of the Assyrians by the Egyptians and the Persians by many other states in the ancient Mediterranean (but not all). There are examples of this of course in monotheistic religions too: Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and the Sunni branch of Islam all at one point espoused this philosophy. Of course the only place you'll see it now is Tibet.
Leigh Bardugo's GrishaVerse books do religion like absolutely no one else. The first series, Shadow and Bone, involves a woman literally becoming a living saint, while in her second series, Six of Crows, we see how a different country in the same world worships money and trade above all else. They're both amazing series, I really can't recommend them enough. Her worldbuilding is practically unparalleled.
I am going to have to watch this a few more times. Great video, but so much to take in!
i recommend the Malazan Book of the Fallen series for super interesting world building, and also lots of gods meddling and changing the world. super interesting stuff
*_God of Dank Memes_*
Mollof he exists.
And his name is...
*JUSTIN Y.*
@Pecu Alex But are you the Dank Meme god or the Supa Dank Meme god?
Dankus, the God of Memes.
i know what god i'm choosing
Ii found this very helpful and inspiring for designing the religion in my novel. Thank you for these talking points. They helped me hone in on what was important and the best ways to create a religion that felt lived, and not just existing.
Oh, man, I love how you used that picture of Malacath when talking about how gods can transform and change.
I think avatar the last airbender depicts spirituality so beautifully
Shadow of the conquer by Shad M. Brooks. the author has really thought out the world he built, the physics and magic if it. He is also a UA-camr and finally got published this year, you can find his audio book on Audible.
Love all your stiff - keep up the good work
I recommend two examples for Mythopeia. The first is the Dresden Files series, in which the protagonist comes to learn that not only are deities and spirits formed and shaped by belief as much as anything else, but that they can change and adapt over time. This hits home when Santa Claus shows up to his birthday party, laughs with his belly like a bowlful of jelly, and hints that he's been known by other names in the past. And that Harry's already met him under a different identity.
The second is the webcomic "Order of the Stick," in which adventurers are involved in an epic conflict involving the gods... and something horrible that they created inadvertently. In a recent story arc Thor leads two of his worshippers on a journey through the afterlife... not so much as a "final reward" thing but as a "let's take a walk and discuss a few things while your friends are preparing your resurrection" thing. He expresses some regrets regarding his father Odin, who is currently recovering from the last world they created. "The last world had us being worshipped by barbarians who believed magic is for sissies and books were dumb. Since he's the god of magic and knowledge, it affected him a bit... he should be fine in another century or so."