I'm reminded of how, in Victorian England, you had an increase in incredibly wealthy merchant/industrialist families and poor noble families intermarrying to consolidate wealth power and status. Also, note that every class/caste is recursive: there are classes within those classes, and the difference may or may not be recognized outside. To an english lord, you had the head maid and the rest of the maids. To the maids it mattered greatly whether they were a chamber maid, a parlour maid, etc. The lord knows of other distinctions but usually it didn't matter. Similarly the lords had their titles, land grants, reputation, etc but to a maid it only mattered insofar as who gets served first.
this example is really good at showing class on a micro scale. take a great lords household. top of the social pyramid is the lord himself then maybe his wife and then the top of the servant hierarchy (butler, head cook, ect.) then maybe the lords children (age could be the dividing factor between the lords family and the rest of the household) the lord has power over everyone the wife has an extension of his power and chief servants have authority over that section of the house (ie kitchen, cleaning,outside, guardsmen,ect) children would be slightly lower than their parents which is why their isn’t a child’s class. these households were very stratified and your position within them depending on your parents position in the hierarchy (the child of a dishwasher was never going to become head cook. and people who didn’t serve the lord or a different lord couldn’t join the household easily you were either in the hierarchy or out of it.
@Daemonworks Your point reminds me of a Polish big novel "Lalka" ( literally "The Doll"). Simplifying, the protagonist is a merchant and he is in love with a noblewomen. As you can imagine, he is considered a sort-of pariah among the nobility, even though he is richer than probably a lot of them. It's much more complex than that, but the way class system in Poland in 19th century was essentially caste system is one of the big themes in the novel.
This example reminded me the best example I know: Corpse Bride. The Everglotts have all the status with a huge power that has been waning due to their impoverishment, while the Van Dorts have all the money and a small power that is growing, therefore, the former to recover their wealth and stabilize their power, and the latter to gain the status and establish their power, come to an agreement of alliance where they strictly are in to gain such, no further interests or friendship involved, through the oldest, most traditional and most effective way to do this known to them: marriage.
Like in corpse bride, the girl is from a family with status but no money, the guy is the son of rich fish merchants. Both families are marring to get what the other has, money and status
Hey, hey, hey! Slow down! I'm all in for a revolution, but we are in quarantine, it waited for hundreds of years, it can wait a few more months, don't you think?
Talking about clothing: An important factor that makes clothes fancy (and thus fit for the upper class) is how impractical it can be. Think of Renaissance ball gowns or the Roman toga. Those even prohibited the wearer from walking quickly, let alone do physical labor. It means you can afford an item of clothing that is both costly and impractical, so you kind of throw money away.
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 Hi I was thinking in terms of Asian lords(chinese) mandarin class type, growing long nails as sign of status i.e I am so high socially that others do everything for me. hope that helps
@@simonkelly1958 No no, I understand you. Im just giving an example of how powerless that makes one. In no socity showing ones self as weak and a burden to other is a good thing.
just because the farmers in Japan on "paper" had a higher social status didn't mean that paper actually meant anything in practice. It's like american politicians saying yeah small business is the backbone of the economy, and then proceeding to give all the money to the big corporations
Nah that's fair lol. There was a distinct period, however, in which merchants were treated particularly badly because of this. But like all things like that, it was slowly eroded, which is more the point. Not just about peasant, but also merchants. ~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe I mean as the Edo period went on and the samurai got more and more in debt, there's accounts of rich farmers lending them money and then writing them letters to scold them and instruct them on areas they could cut back and save money so they can pay them back. All the while the Samurai still theoretically had life and death power over said farmer. So yeah class is a funny thing when the shogun says you have to maintain a set number of samurai on a stipend and rice prices fluctuate.
@@Newidhan I guess if that samurai killed the peasant, no one would ever lend him money again and that would be a problem. Status is influenced by many small relations like that, which decide who you need to be nice to for practical reasons.
@@HelloFutureMe in some of your videos you said the drago bewilderbeast is 2 yrs or something years old but in HTTYD 2 in the flashback he controlled dragons before even hiccup was born
I'm so glad that you wrote about class. So often fantasy stories focus on the two the two most diametrically opposed classes, the ruling and the unspeakables, and I rarely get to see what "middle class" is for a fantasy world, the class of people for which the society's rules are clear and the consequences are real, but they realistically could play the game and live a successful life. And I say that this is needed because so often writers make worlds that don't really work for anyone. Now, I'm not even saying the middle class should be a solid 40-70% of society. It could very well only be the top 19% with the Top 1% being the elitest elite. But when people write these societies where 80% of people's lives are crap, they begin to write these ruling classes that are so completely out of control with power that it starts looking like 99% of people are living crappy lives with 1% not only having power but having absolute say over everything. Writers tend to forget that someone has to be enabling the powerful for them to have power. Is it the clergy of your religion? The military? The engineers making the super weapons? The guild Masters? You aristocrats? The wizards, the ancient ones? Magic itself?!
The main issue is "fantasy" is usually some mutated form of "medieval" (or earlier). Middle classes as we understand the term didn't really exist until the renaissance. Traders such as mason, smith or miller may well have been (comparatively) wealthy and (via guilds) powerful, but they were barely in the pocket change and influence category of the upper classes who owned all the land and possessed close to a monopoly on violence by virtue of being the only ones with the wealth needed to train from birth and equip a man to the highest standards to be a knight. The growth of middle classes required the growth of cities to produce specialised finished goods. Those middle classes would either be the craft-masters controlling production or the merchants that moved those goods to the next city that didn't make the same goods and wanted to buy them. These people could then accumulate wealth and in Europe at least with wealth comes power and then status of a sort.
@@daveharrison4697 middle ages still had civil servants, nobility, clergy, guilds and gentry and I am commenting on fantasy that focuses so heavily on slaying an Emperor that it often lacks the constructs around which make an Emperor powerful. Which is what I was commenting on
@Nub93 "What game?" Whatever the game of the story is, broinsky. In The hunger games, were all 12 districts as equally likely to be unsuccessful winning for the year, or were there a bottom 3-4 that almost always loss and a top 3-4 that almost always won? In Star Wars, Is every planet like the planets in the outer uncharted space (regardless of Republic or Empire in charge)? In Avatar The Last Airbender, are the people in the middle rings of Ba Sing Se safe from the ---- There is no war in Be Sing Se. @__@ In Harry Potter, are pure bloods irregardless of wealth at a magical advantage over muggleborns who have to learn everything from scratch at Hogwarts and in Wizarding Society? In the Game of thrones, does writing a horse not make you better than a man who must walk amongst the dothraki, even if you're not the leader? Is it really that difficult to think about a fantasy society and imagine all the people who get some, if not most, of the fantasy's benefits without having to actively rule the world, making them the complacent and complicit middle class that enable the leader the hero is trying to overthrow? Hell... The Hyenas are the middle class of Scar's pride, getting food in exchange for protecting him from the lionesses, without having to do any of the hunting. Seriously, this is so easy. I could do it all day.
I completely agree. The middle class can be an extremely interesting part of society to focus on because people rarely write about them. I think people like to write the black and white oppressors vs. the oppressed narrative but the middle class have a huge role in this themselves because they too can be the oppressors (in our world the middle class outwardly despise the lower class while pretending to care about them) and the oppressed (they have been silenced and crushed by the upper class when they try to challenge their power). You have stories like GOT where it seems everyone just lives a crappy life unless you're nobility and that's so far from the truth of the medieval period but it's also incredibly bleak. You had poor peasants but you also had the well-off peasants, you had the merchant class, artists and craftsmen who would later go on to create the middle class, and they all lived relatively good lives.
14:00 "This is why the Irish Peasantry relied on the less nutritious potato." Um, excuse you? No, the Potato is LOADED with nutrients! Especially energy-rich carbohydrates. In fact, before the Potato Blight of the 1840s Irish Peasants were recorded as being taller and more fit than even some groups of the Upper class! No, the Potato was depended on so much because it was the only thing they were allowed to grow for food in enough quantities to sustain them and still have land they needed to grow cash crops that made the money they needed to pay their landlords' middlemen. Extra History's video on the Potato Blight has excellent cliff notes on how the Potato got to the position it was in. It wasn't because of wealth making it so a Potato was all they could afford.
@@seanpoore2428 yeah, a better example would have been Tudor England, where the nobles ate nothing except for meat and bread. Not a single bit of green or vegetation in sight. Meanwhile the poor ate only veggies and rarely had any meat.
One thing I'd add - where there's different ideologies between classes, there's ALWAYS ideological contestation. Even if this isn't part of your storyline (e.g. you aren't writing a revolution-based plot) it will be happening in the world, and this can and should be echoed in the plot. Whether that's a stablehand mocking a cobbler for believing 'that priestly tripe' about the Queen's alleged infidelity, or a blacksmith lobbying the regional lord for them to hire fewer apprentices, or soldiers considering mutiny because the priesthood views them as expendable cannon fodder, sprinkling in these conflicts makes the world seem more real.
I’ve always struggled at fantasy world building in some forms that don’t have a basis on our world - videos like these are helping me understand how I can create these systems for my own world, great video!
Class is becoming a big deal in a current isekai anime called honzuki no gekokujou. The main character is being forced to relearn how to speak properly so as not to show weakness and even how to play a harp to protect her as she is commoner now mingling in noble class areas.
I think it's also important to think about personal power in a fantasy setting, no matter the class, wealth or lineage no one in our world can ever learn or be born powerful enough to beat off 1000 or 10000 other dudes, some times in fantasy that kind of power disparity exists and it seems to only affect interpersonal relationship instead of warping entire societies around these individuals.
@@Nostripe361 Are talking about Bookworm? You're talking about Ascendance of a Bookworm, right!? I love that show. The world building and everything is absolutely amazing.
@@jeromefournier9667 In a world with people that powerful, I'll never understand the existence of armies or king's who aren't the most powerful around (or in charge of a small group of incredibly powerful warriors). I don't agree with "might makes right," but when I could throw a grenade point blank at someone and they could run around the country twice before the explosion reaches back towards my hand then I don't think someone strong would have much problem in taking over, setting up a local militia to run the villages before taking over the neighbouring kingdom by just running past their army and killing the king, thereby intimidating the opposing kingdom enough to add it to your collection. Seriously, what can an army of average strength people do against the 10 strongest people from Akame Ga Kill? Absolutely squat. One of them outran an explosion while holding an injured comrade in their arms, the speed of that is measured not in miles per hour but in metres per second. That's stupid fast.
"Huh. No idea why I'm pausing here. No idea how this could possibly be relevant to our current geopolitical and sociological circumstances." I laughed and cried both.
@@rileyackison4495 because the point he made was obviously contradictory to how our current society works (power is valued over relevance or importance to societal function)
@@MerkhVision It didn’t raise their status. They’ve always been necessary to the function of society, but we didn’t actually treat them any differently because of this pandemic. We just pretended to and then moved on
I love Dragon Age for how it treats magic. Mages are low on status, and are typically taken from their families for their safety. They are a danger, but in the third game, they rebel. Templars, the ones that train to keep the mages away from the public, are seen as protectors or tyrants. And the highest level a mage has ever known to touch in the common people’s government is essentially a court jester, until Madame Vivienne, who you can meet. The highest templar you see replaced a ruler of a city-state, that being Knight-Commander Meredith. Also, elves are the oppressed people in Dragon Age, either forced to live as slaves, in servitude, in aleinages (basically a ghetto), or are nomadic people that frequently fight with human cities. They had a grand empire and were defeated during an Exalted March, which is a religious crusade and their empire was destroyed. And the dwarves have a full-on caste system, complete with an underbelly of untouchables both in the city and outside. If a dwarf sees the sky, they can no longer live in the underground kingdom.
Dragon age had some really good worldbuilding in it. It's one of the reasons I still love that game (please for the love of the Maker, Bioware, do not f**k up the next Dragon Age, and please don't let EA make you put in micro-transactions, some cosmetics are fine, I won't like it, but some of that, is far better than a ton of various ones, though again I prefer none at all, sorry, kinda saw red for a second there).
Dark Rite You’re so completely right, but after the failure of Anthem and Andromeda, paired with the success of Jedi Fallen Order and the most anticipated game being Cyberpunk 2077, EA may realize they need to leave Bioware alone. It’s a crackpipe dream, but here’s hoping...
@Berserking Bishop Agreed on Dragon Age 2, cause I really wasn't a fan of what they did art style wise among other things. Inquisition wasn't bad, it was fun, the story was decent, and I like a lot of the things you could do in it. But I will note that it certainly didn't have the same impact of Origins, and while it's almost as replayable as Origins, I think Origins was truly the best of them story wise. Though that's just me, I can certainly understand dislike of it in comparison to the first game.
The important thing on the magic in DA is actually just how absurdly powerful it is. They physically walked into the Fade and you do that too because of magic. The Tevinter Imperium values magic ability and bloodline above all else and the Archon and Black Divine are both extremely powerful mages from what I remember, while most of the rest of the world sees mages as the cause of Darkspawn since the first Blight happened during the hegemony of the Tevinter Imperium and was a disastrous conflict of over two centuries. Even the second blight was absurdly long and devastating, I think coming in somewhere around 80 years? All that colored the modern thinking of the Chantry which led to so much influence in normal people. The mages rising up is even more so important not just because of oppression but because they find out that the main threat to them (being made Tranquil) is actually reversible. (It's in one of the novels. Forget the title right now. Great read.) The elves, even more importantly as we find out, valued the same thing until an internal revolution toppled their actual empire (you find this out in Tresspasser DLC in Inquisition - really highly recommend it) and all subsuquent attempts were quelled because without their omni-present magic elves in general are weaker than humans or Qunari. The novel "The Calling" reveals that the an elf and human hybrid is always human which also adds more to the fact that elves are doomed without their magic. The dwarves need so much more stuff. With the other major Thaig (Kal Shirok? I forget the spelling or name) now confirmed to be discovered and successful against Darkspawn and completely independent of Orazammar, plus the changes we already saw brewing in DA:O, it will be interesting to see how things might change for the casteless and if Orzammar will accept them more permanently.
I don't like Dragon Age for how it treats its elves because, to me, it seems like a blatant rip off from The Witcher series without understanding how it worked in The Witcher. For elves to be oppressed for their looks doesn't work in DA when you have black and brown people walking around without any care in the world. It works in the Witcher because, even though the elves and the Witchers look like anyone else from afar, when they get close enough for people to see their abnormal features it becomes something that is picked apart for how different it is. Because their ears (or the eyes for Witchers) are the only thing that differentiate them from the rest of the people in the Witcher world it is used as a form of petty prejudice and that is a clever way to create oppression that makes sense. In DA it doesn't make any sense.
I never realized just how underdeveloped my world building was when it comes to classes. It had suddenly become something I wanted to work on more but I had been solely focused on rankings among military, not over all status of the people and where they fit in in the world.
Hey, think of it this way. Depending on your military system, those military ranks may equate to their social standing. Take Knights or Samurai- they were a proffession as much as they were a social status.
I like the show but I can't get over that the buildings in the "poor" parts of town look like they were built in the 1970s, with perfectly angled concrete bases and symmetrical windows (with glass!) while the show is supposed to be set in a fantastical late-medieval-style period.
@@skylordguy6861 knowing how limited magic is in that setting I seriously doubt it. I also hate how magic is just handwaveium and not an actual system to so many people.
"...why the Irish peasants relied on the less nutritious potato..." Except that the potato was the single most nutritious crop available, relative to land usage. The entire reason Ireland grew to be so heavily reliant on the potato is because the potato was the only crop nutritious enough to feed both the populace of Ireland and meet the English demands for food exports. There are even studies pondering the health and stature of the Irish peasant vs the French peasant. The conclusion at the time, because genetics were new and eugenic explanations for things were generally accepted, was that there was a genetic superiority to the Irish peasant, but the modern interpretation of the data is that it's entirely due to the difference in diet - potato vs grains like barley. The reason the Irish Potato Famine was so devastating was that the English demand for food exports from the subjugated Irish necessitated a near total monoculture of potato. It's less being poor and more being subjects of foreign and malicious rule.
Yes, exactly, economics not intent. People act like the upper classes were keeping the best food, in reality the potato was a better choice than the overly meat heavy diet of those with greater wealth.
One addition I recently heard: Another big issue leading to the Irish Potato Famine was that a very poor selection of potatoes was brought over to Europe from South America, meaning the population of potatoes being produced in Europe had very low genetic diversity. This resulted in making the potato much more uniformly vulnerable to disease, so when a disease that killed one plant came along, every other plant was just as vulnerable to it. This isn't the last time that kind of thing happened, either. If you've ever had artificial banana flavouring and noticed how not-banana it tastes like, that's because it was designed for a different type of banana, which were all pretty close to being clones of one another. Disease came along and wiped out the whole world's crop of banana trees. So we found a new banana tree variety, and have done the exact same thing with the current kind of banana. At some point, it's all but inevitable that the exact same thing will happen again because "learning from history, what is that?" So enjoy bananas while we have them, we don't know when the entire species we're using is just going to drop off the face of the earth.
The great Myshkerian revolution is coming. Arise Comrades and fight in the name of our late Supreme Leader Mishka. I believe I may have spelled the name wrong. I will now go commit sepuku while you all take on the revolution without me
Been working on my worldbuilding since 2018 and when I saw this channel, IT HELPED ME A LOT. Now I'm more into national history of nations in my own fictional world and dang, there are at least fifty of them more or less and 11,000 years to fill! (in its timeline which was truly insane on its own LOL) Challenging but fun and also satisfying. THANK YOU! ❤
Sanderson's stormlight archive does this well. I'm actually surprised it didn't come up more in the video. In the novels there's a strict caste system split into lighteyes and darkeyes, but within the two categories, not only are different colour variations associated with different ranks in terms of cultural status, there are gradations depending on people's roles and occupations in society. A darkeyes can rise in social rank through advancement in the military, for example, and there are darkeyes who through military service or marriage attain a rank which is equivalent to the social rank of minor lighteyes. Due to their access to power and wealth, there social status is acknowledged to be higher (even if technically their social rank isn't). Nevertheless, a darkeyes person can only ever rise so far without accessing a Shard which causes their eyes to permanently change to a light colour. The reasons for this are tied into that particular nation's ( the Varin nation, iirc) culture and religion, and linked to a whole set of rituals and beliefs. It's a very nuanced and believable system that gives the impression of having developed over a really long period of time. Sanderson's world building is just next level.
Or multiple intersecting caste systems within a single upper/lower class system, with anything but upper caste all across relegating you to lower class Huh, what does that remind me of
In one of my projects, there's a horizontal class system- each of the clans, and the Diamorn, who aren't technically a clan; their role is to be an impartial place to raise younglings, protect eggs, and provide mediators and a place for negotiations. They do also have most of the features of a clans such as healers, but are reliant on the others for food and supplies, just as the others are reliant on them because they have the entire species' young. So while they're all technically on the same level, the Diamorn have the most power and influence.
14:05 I'll dispute that point. Potatoes are in fact, highly nutritious as it is entirely possible to live off potatoes and a calcium source as a long-term diet. The high productivity of potatoes compared to other crops and especially when considering Irish soils are why Irish peasant predominantly grew potatoes. It was because of the class system of English domination that cause exorbitant rents by absentee landowners that made potatoes the only viable crop.
I think people are getting the wrong meaning in what I said there. I was simply meaning potatoes were in high supply and were viable crops, so they were cheap and widely available. Hence why it's in the section about wealth as the determining factor. ~ Tim
I'd just like to point out that there's more to class in Stormlight Archives than eye color. There's an enumerated caste system in place as well. (Also it's the Shardblade that changes eye color, Shardplate does not bond to the wielder as far as I'm aware.)
"how class systems start, and how they collapse" that joke about revolutions is apt tho, considering knowing how things happen and can be made to un-happen, as it were, are very good steps to having a successful revolution
One of my favorite class mix ups lately came from Fire Emblem Three Houses, each of the units have different reactions to which route you go down, and while you’d assume most of the nobles would want to keep a noble society they are all more than happy to overthrow the status quo in Edlegard’s route
That one is particularly interesting because while the means of enforcement for the existing hierarchy haven't entirely decayed, the bloodline-exclusive magic it rests on is thinning out and so the upper class is also feeling the pressure, with some noble characters becoming disillusioned (e.g. Sylvain and Hanneman's backstories). The religion is also a factor, since the class system relies on it to justify itself while going against its stated moral values. Basically, the power hasn't actually shifted yet, but almost nobody is satisfied with the existing system anymore, and in all endings it changes in some ways.
Михаил Дворецкий I’m in the middle Rhea’s route but so far only Dimitri keeps a monarchy while Claude and Edelgard both do a representative republic / oligarchy based on merit, but even in Dimitris route they talk about the need to uplift citizens without crests which strays away from fantasy’s bad habit of magic blood = rightful ruler that FE is super guilty about
I’m in a world building workshop class rn and realized that I’ve never really done much world building before, not to this depth, at least. This video helped a lot!
and hold up your weapons, tools and fists-united! For me shall strike down our oppressors. Rise up, my brethren! Do not fear for your lives- you only have your chains to lose
so many layers to consider especially when you have multiple characters all from different backgrounds and even different fantasy species. man this is gonna be tough lol
8:52 this is also sort of true for the Grishaverse series, depending on the region and country. For example, Ravka is a country that's the safest for the magical people, the Grisha. But Grisha are also heavily discriminated against as they are seen as other, even in this supposed safe haven for them.
I saw Nier:Automata on the thumbnail and really wanted to hear something about it. But then it was just used for one tiny example. *sad android noises*
I'm actually a bit triggered by it. I mean he say's "android society" but then quotes YoRHa type designations, which literally only apply to the YoRHa units and even then aren't accurate, since only Scanner and Operator are actual types in the lore. The "fighter" is a grouping of A, B, D, and G types, "Commander" isn't a type but is a specific character, and the H (Healer) type is left unmentioned..
A really good example of class systems can be seen in modern soc... I mean the Dragon Age world setting. Reading into the lore the classes of various countries have distinct features to them: such as Orlesian nobles all wear masks to hide their face (particularly from the poor), and in Tevinter being a mage or relative of a mage gains you higher social class, generally relating to power and status. Dwarves have a very rigid caste system which stems from ancestor worship, in which warriors, servants and Smith's (the three most commonly referred to) are binding and within the castes you have Houses which are the descendants of Paragons (deified ancestors) who have even greater power. The lowest in society are the casteless who are 'rejected by the stone' and 'cast out by the ancestors'. The qunari also have a caste system (sort of) in which only males can be in the military, only females can be engineers, scientists or scholars, but there is a mix for the primary production. The castes are dictated by their philosophy (the "three sections of the Qun" being: the soul (scholars), blood (production), and body (military). There is even known to be specific breeding within the society so it's possible that individuals of certain castes may be physiologically different. Really cool setting
Here's some ideas I got from watching this. I was thinking of making a cast/class system mix. There is upper, mid, lower and no class and inbetween those classes casts like Priests, Royalty, Warriors, Farmers and such exsist. Not all classes have the same casts and not all folks are equal even if they are the same Class/Cast. for instance, Mid Medical Farmers are concidered FAR above regular farmers of any kind and even above Upper luxury farmers since medical needs are always more important than Luxuries BUT clearly the upper Luxury farmers will always have more money, hell even mid and lower Luxury Farmers have more money (the amount clearly varies). For priests, there are several kinds due to religion. The most respectable amongst all of them are Wind Priest but they have the least money. They are some of the very few Priests that travel the whole country and talk to people of all classes/casts. Then there are the Sun Raise Priest who stay in the Upper Class, the Twilight Prist who Run schools and then the Tailed Priest who stricktly live in the lower class. Religious Upper Class folks often view Manhunters (military) and Doctors as a reasonable extention of Priests. Why? Because Manhunters and Drs take care of the physical which is considered just as important as the spiritual since both can effect eachother but there are some disagreements. Some of the RUC say it's only the Drs that count, Some say it's only the Manhunters while others Both. One term I had made to show class differences was for Demons that can posses people. Hearth Weights (UC) Waved Weights (MC) Waved Eyes Demons (LC) Demons (NC) There are also some things that are considered high status no matter what, clothing being the main one. They live in a decent area where temperature dips aren't very bad (it's near the equator of their planet) so clothing isn't nessasary at all. It's mainly a status thing. Also "Spider" Silk, "Goat" Tail and bird horn are materials that also signafy status.
I tried assembling a list of books you've recommend or mentioned in your videos, because you seem to have really good taste and haven't left me astray so far, but now I've lost the list, and I don't think I have time to go through all your videos before my birthday. Would you consider recommending some books here or on Twitter so I actually have an answer when people ask me what I want?
Uh, what? In The Witcher, sorcerers and sorceresses are some of the most powerful and influential people in the world, especially in the North. They're still influential in Nilfgaard, but the Emperor keeps them under an iron fist so they are basically servants to the Empire, like everyone else. At most you could say that magicians aren't trusted because they have a power that most others don't have, which could give them a huge advantage in a lot of situations.
@@glanni Even then, I'd argue that the statement that 'magic lowers your social status' is not wholly accurate, at least in the manner that it was implied in the video. As an example, in the short story 'A Shard of Ice', Istredd, is an important figure within Aedd Gynvael, to quote the major "Indispensable to this municipality. Invaluable, I'd say. People hold him in high regard, locals and outsiders, too". Istredd, of course, is a mage who studied Ban Ard (and is a major dickhole to Geralt). Priests are also able to do magic, an example of that is Krepp, from the short story, The Last Wish, who may not be able to cast 'spells' (or so he claims) and his power comes from his 'faith'. He still was able to stabilise the portal for Geralt so he could save Yennefer (who I'd like to mention was fully clothed in the books, just saying). There are of course; druids, village witches, and of course, witchers, who all are able to do some degree of magic and each would have their own social standing within their respective communities. These are all pre-Thanedd examples, but even then Thanedd was tied to the Northern Mages. So it wouldn't have effected the Nilfgaardian Mages, who are held to a different standard than their northern counterparts to begin with, as James previously mentioned.
I think that HFM was referring to witchers. They are - kind of - magical people, and their status is lower. He said that people view the magic users as cruel outsiders, which sounds just right for the witchers. But yeah, mages were definitely powerful and influential. And witchers are very much not mages.
Sorcerers and sorceresses are powerful yes but Witchers and other “magical” creatures and beings are definitely lower class. Also in nilfguard mages are kept on a leash from the get go and *spoilers* After the destruction of the brotherhood in Time of Contempt they loose the majority of their political power and influence and are distrusted by the northern kings. Hence why Phillipa formed the lodge in secret to protect “the future of magic”. Of course come the Witcher 2 game things go even worse for the mages and by the Witcher 3 they are basically fugitives in most nations.
I don’t know how I only just now discovered your videos but they are absolutely amazing and it’s obvious how much care and effort you put into your work idk if these comments mean much to you but I really appreciate your work
8:50 "In The Witcher, magic makes you less socially mobile... So consider Witch Things in your world..." (sorry couldn't let that one slide.) Also, the mini sketches in between the info were hilarious! Very insightful information as always! Currently revisiting your book to design my magic system. ^^ I was wondering if you could make a video in the future On Writing Humor? Definitely allows for many Avatar examples!
Thank you for including some Man of Steel in this video! It's one of my favorite movies (and my favorite superhero film), so it's cool to see others continue to bring up the philosophical aspects it introduced.
Love the starcraft reference. I remember my very first delve into lore and worldbuilding, and the seed that bloomed eventually into my desire to create my own worlds, was reading those large softcover Starcraft and Brood Wars guides.
Am there and I need that juicy juicy class, etc. Part of world building for my post apocalyptic then modernized fantasy world there! (Wondering how magic would fit into that...)
@@MrWesford basically having it all rebuilt to semi-modern standarts again, so yeah... + technically basically everyone could do magic there (literally just called "power" there), so... there is that factor as well
@@somerandomgal3915 that would depend on what magic can do and how difficult it is. If it can do truly awe-inspiring feats BUT requires decades of diligent study and focus (possibly with a degree of danger/self-sacrifice) then those that can wield magic will become wealthy and powerful, either by being the protectors of land, settlements and the people in it (rather like how warriors became knights and lords in the first place) or by providing key goods and services that people want and/or need. If however it is essentially just parlour tricks and flashing lights and can be mastered in an afternoon, then it'll be not much more than a low status entertainer. Its finding the point on the two axes (yeah the plural of axis just looks wrong even after checking the spelling twice) of difficulty and utility to allow your mages/wizards to find their economic niche.
@@daveharrison4697 the range is from flashy tricks to awe-inspiring feats, from ridiculously easy to learn to you may need a whole life time to do so if you are lucky and also from pretty harmless to it's easy to end up getting yourself killed there... the question there is less how costly or often is magic being done there... magic or rather power in there is abundant... the real question is there more, what would people end up using it for? And on top of that there is also no unified theory of magic discovered there yet (as in the full magic system itself) but more like a few rules of a few arrays of the magic there (which may even overlap with each other there) and not everyone will understand these rules equally well if presented with the opportunity to learn them... and what I forgot to mention earlier: there is also a method (more like a technology tbh. since there are supposed to be a lot of in world inventions using this) with which you can go around all this understanding and learning there on the cost of using actual ressources for this... (haven't decided yet, wether or not this is some kind of magical not abundant ore or ressource or just something very hard and costly to make there)
@@somerandomgal3915 Then it comes under the "same but different" problem! So far it can achieve everything non-magical means can achieve but in parallel. If it was me, I'd be working on imposing some quite serious limits BUT also ensuring that it is the only way of doing something that can be considered valuable. That then gives magic users and economical/ecological niche to exploit. Famous examples (even though not quite magic in some cases) could be the Spacing Guild navigators from Dune having a monopoly on interstellar travel, astropaths from Warhammer 40,000 having a monopoly on interstellar communication, or indeed the Mechanicum in the same Warhammer 40,000 having a virtual monopoly on technology more advanced than small arms (and still having a monopoly on the systems that make up lesser technology).
GLORIOUS! But seriously though, I'm barely 5 minutes in and already this has inspired some serious worldbuilding questions and solutions that my world sorely needed. I can just feel the world shifting into place as I ask the proper questions and answer them in greater detail. It's been nothing short of a...revolutionising experience. If you see this: Thanks Tim! And if you don't see it: Thanks Tim!
Great video! After watching your videos, you always present questions that I would never conjure up with my world building for my novel. Your logic and discerning of different subjects cause me to go deeper. I truly enjoy your videos wish you had more!
Your series has inspired me to write my own fiction. Thank you for bringing us these powerfully informative videos, Tim. Your book inspired me to fresh, new perspectives on my world, and I thank you for that.
For that try looking at a summary of the Wars of the Roses (some bloke called George R. R. Martin did that and had some modest success) or the Sengoku Jidai period in Japan.
Let's go my comrades. Let's destroy class based hierarchical structures in our own fantasies , because we sure as hell don't have a chance doing so in this dystopia ;D
One of my favourite examples of differing ideologies between classes is the division between the more urban Confucianists and the more rural Thaoists in ancient China.
Well, when you're writing you can just make the characters never think about the funnily details, but your players will definitely want to know wether they can give a nobleman more money to lower their status and increase the players own power.
I remember one episode of Victoria where they visit Scotland. The nobles are having their gallant ball, while the servants and other low borns had a dance outside the castle. The servant's dance was less formal and the music and dancing were much more lively. Reminded me of river music in America during the same era.
I really, really enjoy videos like this. I don't care much about the more direct content analysis, even if I've seen whatever you're talking about, but stuff like I this I can apply to my own Tabletop games and improve their quality.
"Having an upper class in an Earth-like society with all the wealth but none of the power and none of the status is probably unrealistic." *Laughs in Edo Period Merchant Class*
For a real world example about class and language, I was astonished when I watched They Shall Not Grow Old, and I swear you can hear crystal clear which of the veterans being interviewed were officers and which were enlisted men. It's obvious when you think about it but I was shocked at how pronounced the difference was.
![On Worldbuilding: Monarchy [ French Revolution | British Empire | Chinese Dynasties ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8o0X8TE4aPk/mqdefault.jpg)
![On Worldbuilding: Monarchy [ French Revolution | British Empire | Chinese Dynasties ]](/img/tr.png)
![On Worldbuilding: Religions [ polytheistic l Avatar TLA l Game of Thrones l Cthulhu ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Wz2H1t5XvP8/mqdefault.jpg)
In a few weeks, THE GLORIOUS REVOLUTION - I mean, Part 2, will be here. *AND NOW IT'S HERE >>> ua-cam.com/video/8tjvul5e1y4/v-deo.html
I eagerly await THE GLORIOUS REVOLUTION. Also your next video.
Hey,soooooo,there isnt any more HTTYD now?
COMMUNISM
Is all of this info in your book as well
Oh, the greatness of that! Thank you for your wonderfull videos!
I'm reminded of how, in Victorian England, you had an increase in incredibly wealthy merchant/industrialist families and poor noble families intermarrying to consolidate wealth power and status.
Also, note that every class/caste is recursive: there are classes within those classes, and the difference may or may not be recognized outside.
To an english lord, you had the head maid and the rest of the maids. To the maids it mattered greatly whether they were a chamber maid, a parlour maid, etc. The lord knows of other distinctions but usually it didn't matter. Similarly the lords had their titles, land grants, reputation, etc but to a maid it only mattered insofar as who gets served first.
yes, good additional points
this example is really good at showing class on a micro scale. take a great lords household. top of the social pyramid is the lord himself then maybe his wife and then the top of the servant hierarchy (butler, head cook, ect.) then maybe the lords children (age could be the dividing factor between the lords family and the rest of the household) the lord has power over everyone the wife has an extension of his power and chief servants have authority over that section of the house (ie kitchen, cleaning,outside, guardsmen,ect) children would be slightly lower than their parents which is why their isn’t a child’s class. these households were very stratified and your position within them depending on your parents position in the hierarchy (the child of a dishwasher was never going to become head cook. and people who didn’t serve the lord or a different lord couldn’t join the household easily you were either in the hierarchy or out of it.
@Daemonworks
Your point reminds me of a Polish big novel "Lalka" ( literally "The Doll"). Simplifying, the protagonist is a merchant and he is in love with a noblewomen. As you can imagine, he is considered a sort-of pariah among the nobility, even though he is richer than probably a lot of them. It's much more complex than that, but the way class system in Poland in 19th century was essentially caste system is one of the big themes in the novel.
This example reminded me the best example I know: Corpse Bride. The Everglotts have all the status with a huge power that has been waning due to their impoverishment, while the Van Dorts have all the money and a small power that is growing, therefore, the former to recover their wealth and stabilize their power, and the latter to gain the status and establish their power, come to an agreement of alliance where they strictly are in to gain such, no further interests or friendship involved, through the oldest, most traditional and most effective way to do this known to them: marriage.
Like in corpse bride, the girl is from a family with status but no money, the guy is the son of rich fish merchants. Both families are marring to get what the other has, money and status
Y'all heard it here, revolution in a month
It's BYO. Bring your own torch.
~ Tim
Hey, hey, hey! Slow down! I'm all in for a revolution, but we are in quarantine, it waited for hundreds of years, it can wait a few more months, don't you think?
@@HelloFutureMe this but unironically
So that's what we're getting for June for 2020
Eat the hairdressers
Speakers on, window open. You know... since it's a beautiful day ou-- "RISE UP, COMRADES!!!"
Best part is, you could've sworn that when you glanced outside afterwards, you might have glimpsed some people saluting.
Reminds me of the Chinese National anthem. The chorus literally translates to rise up: 起来，起来，起来！
This comment aged like fine wine
1312
Same 😂😂
Talking about clothing: An important factor that makes clothes fancy (and thus fit for the upper class) is how impractical it can be. Think of Renaissance ball gowns or the Roman toga. Those even prohibited the wearer from walking quickly, let alone do physical labor. It means you can afford an item of clothing that is both costly and impractical, so you kind of throw money away.
Those impractical cloathes will apear later when the class is longs past is glory days and is now degenerating.
Similar to growing finger nails so long they are not practical for labour or even bodily functions
@@simonkelly1958 Jup degenerecy. If you are lets say the warior class how are you gona fight with those kind of nails.
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 Hi I was thinking in terms of Asian lords(chinese) mandarin class type, growing long nails as sign of status i.e I am so high socially that others do everything for me. hope that helps
@@simonkelly1958 No no, I understand you. Im just giving an example of how powerless that makes one. In no socity showing ones self as weak and a burden to other is a good thing.
just because the farmers in Japan on "paper" had a higher social status didn't mean that paper actually meant anything in practice. It's like american politicians saying yeah small business is the backbone of the economy, and then proceeding to give all the money to the big corporations
Exactly. China's peasants were theoretically higher-status than merchants, but you'd be hard-pressed to convince any actual peasants of that
Nah that's fair lol. There was a distinct period, however, in which merchants were treated particularly badly because of this. But like all things like that, it was slowly eroded, which is more the point. Not just about peasant, but also merchants.
~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe I mean as the Edo period went on and the samurai got more and more in debt, there's accounts of rich farmers lending them money and then writing them letters to scold them and instruct them on areas they could cut back and save money so they can pay them back. All the while the Samurai still theoretically had life and death power over said farmer. So yeah class is a funny thing when the shogun says you have to maintain a set number of samurai on a stipend and rice prices fluctuate.
@@Newidhan I guess if that samurai killed the peasant, no one would ever lend him money again and that would be a problem. Status is influenced by many small relations like that, which decide who you need to be nice to for practical reasons.
@@HelloFutureMe in some of your videos you said the drago bewilderbeast
is 2 yrs or something years old but in HTTYD 2 in the flashback he controlled dragons before even hiccup was born
last time I was this early we thought the fire nation was just industrializing for economic reasons
Well to begin with it was .
Lol
I'm so glad that you wrote about class. So often fantasy stories focus on the two the two most diametrically opposed classes, the ruling and the unspeakables, and I rarely get to see what "middle class" is for a fantasy world, the class of people for which the society's rules are clear and the consequences are real, but they realistically could play the game and live a successful life. And I say that this is needed because so often writers make worlds that don't really work for anyone. Now, I'm not even saying the middle class should be a solid 40-70% of society. It could very well only be the top 19% with the Top 1% being the elitest elite. But when people write these societies where 80% of people's lives are crap, they begin to write these ruling classes that are so completely out of control with power that it starts looking like 99% of people are living crappy lives with 1% not only having power but having absolute say over everything. Writers tend to forget that someone has to be enabling the powerful for them to have power. Is it the clergy of your religion? The military? The engineers making the super weapons? The guild Masters? You aristocrats? The wizards, the ancient ones? Magic itself?!
The main issue is "fantasy" is usually some mutated form of "medieval" (or earlier). Middle classes as we understand the term didn't really exist until the renaissance. Traders such as mason, smith or miller may well have been (comparatively) wealthy and (via guilds) powerful, but they were barely in the pocket change and influence category of the upper classes who owned all the land and possessed close to a monopoly on violence by virtue of being the only ones with the wealth needed to train from birth and equip a man to the highest standards to be a knight. The growth of middle classes required the growth of cities to produce specialised finished goods. Those middle classes would either be the craft-masters controlling production or the merchants that moved those goods to the next city that didn't make the same goods and wanted to buy them. These people could then accumulate wealth and in Europe at least with wealth comes power and then status of a sort.
Dave Harrison the middle class only really formed in Europe at least in the late Middle Ages
@@daveharrison4697 middle ages still had civil servants, nobility, clergy, guilds and gentry and I am commenting on fantasy that focuses so heavily on slaying an Emperor that it often lacks the constructs around which make an Emperor powerful. Which is what I was commenting on
@Nub93 "What game?" Whatever the game of the story is, broinsky.
In The hunger games, were all 12 districts as equally likely to be unsuccessful winning for the year, or were there a bottom 3-4 that almost always loss and a top 3-4 that almost always won?
In Star Wars, Is every planet like the planets in the outer uncharted space (regardless of Republic or Empire in charge)?
In Avatar The Last Airbender, are the people in the middle rings of Ba Sing Se safe from the ---- There is no war in Be Sing Se. @__@
In Harry Potter, are pure bloods irregardless of wealth at a magical advantage over muggleborns who have to learn everything from scratch at Hogwarts and in Wizarding Society?
In the Game of thrones, does writing a horse not make you better than a man who must walk amongst the dothraki, even if you're not the leader?
Is it really that difficult to think about a fantasy society and imagine all the people who get some, if not most, of the fantasy's benefits without having to actively rule the world, making them the complacent and complicit middle class that enable the leader the hero is trying to overthrow?
Hell... The Hyenas are the middle class of Scar's pride, getting food in exchange for protecting him from the lionesses, without having to do any of the hunting. Seriously, this is so easy. I could do it all day.
I completely agree. The middle class can be an extremely interesting part of society to focus on because people rarely write about them. I think people like to write the black and white oppressors vs. the oppressed narrative but the middle class have a huge role in this themselves because they too can be the oppressors (in our world the middle class outwardly despise the lower class while pretending to care about them) and the oppressed (they have been silenced and crushed by the upper class when they try to challenge their power). You have stories like GOT where it seems everyone just lives a crappy life unless you're nobility and that's so far from the truth of the medieval period but it's also incredibly bleak. You had poor peasants but you also had the well-off peasants, you had the merchant class, artists and craftsmen who would later go on to create the middle class, and they all lived relatively good lives.
14:00 "This is why the Irish Peasantry relied on the less nutritious potato."
Um, excuse you? No, the Potato is LOADED with nutrients! Especially energy-rich carbohydrates. In fact, before the Potato Blight of the 1840s Irish Peasants were recorded as being taller and more fit than even some groups of the Upper class! No, the Potato was depended on so much because it was the only thing they were allowed to grow for food in enough quantities to sustain them and still have land they needed to grow cash crops that made the money they needed to pay their landlords' middlemen.
Extra History's video on the Potato Blight has excellent cliff notes on how the Potato got to the position it was in. It wasn't because of wealth making it so a Potato was all they could afford.
Bruh
lol
I'm glad I didn't post this comment because here it is lmao said perfectly AND referencing the great Extra Credits potato famine video!
@@seanpoore2428 yeah, a better example would have been Tudor England, where the nobles ate nothing except for meat and bread. Not a single bit of green or vegetation in sight. Meanwhile the poor ate only veggies and rarely had any meat.
I think the point is more potatoes were grown because they were one of the few things hardy enough to survive
One thing I'd add - where there's different ideologies between classes, there's ALWAYS ideological contestation. Even if this isn't part of your storyline (e.g. you aren't writing a revolution-based plot) it will be happening in the world, and this can and should be echoed in the plot.
Whether that's a stablehand mocking a cobbler for believing 'that priestly tripe' about the Queen's alleged infidelity, or a blacksmith lobbying the regional lord for them to hire fewer apprentices, or soldiers considering mutiny because the priesthood views them as expendable cannon fodder, sprinkling in these conflicts makes the world seem more real.
I’ve always struggled at fantasy world building in some forms that don’t have a basis on our world - videos like these are helping me understand how I can create these systems for my own world, great video!
Class is becoming a big deal in a current isekai anime called honzuki no gekokujou. The main character is being forced to relearn how to speak properly so as not to show weakness and even how to play a harp to protect her as she is commoner now mingling in noble class areas.
I think it's also important to think about personal power in a fantasy setting, no matter the class, wealth or lineage no one in our world can ever learn or be born powerful enough to beat off 1000 or 10000 other dudes, some times in fantasy that kind of power disparity exists and it seems to only affect interpersonal relationship instead of warping entire societies around these individuals.
@@Nostripe361 Are talking about Bookworm? You're talking about Ascendance of a Bookworm, right!?
I love that show. The world building and everything is absolutely amazing.
@@jeromefournier9667 In a world with people that powerful, I'll never understand the existence of armies or king's who aren't the most powerful around (or in charge of a small group of incredibly powerful warriors). I don't agree with "might makes right," but when I could throw a grenade point blank at someone and they could run around the country twice before the explosion reaches back towards my hand then I don't think someone strong would have much problem in taking over, setting up a local militia to run the villages before taking over the neighbouring kingdom by just running past their army and killing the king, thereby intimidating the opposing kingdom enough to add it to your collection.
Seriously, what can an army of average strength people do against the 10 strongest people from Akame Ga Kill? Absolutely squat. One of them outran an explosion while holding an injured comrade in their arms, the speed of that is measured not in miles per hour but in metres per second. That's stupid fast.
Try watching his video Soft world building vs Hard world building, I promise you will not regret it
"The American dream.... You can die it a nicer coffin than a poor person "
I died laughing 😂😂😂
Unless they set it ablaze.
Urns, baby. That's where it's at.
It was so unexpected I actually laughed out loud.
Pfft, small brained fools! Dropping dead is where it's at!
As an American, I can confirm that that's basically it.
Hang on, did Tim write a video about a complicated topic without saying "Class systems are complicated!" In his booming voiceover? :O
Eh, I'm sure it's coming in the next part.
"Huh. No idea why I'm pausing here. No idea how this could possibly be relevant to our current geopolitical and sociological circumstances."
I laughed and cried both.
I laughed but honestly not 100% sure what he is referring to. Could someone possibly explain it?
@@rileyackison4495 because the point he made was obviously contradictory to how our current society works (power is valued over relevance or importance to societal function)
@@iheartblock3792 it's not even that, it's more likely he's referencing the global pandemic raising the status of essential workers!
@@MerkhVision It didn’t raise their status. They’ve always been necessary to the function of society, but we didn’t actually treat them any differently because of this pandemic. We just pretended to and then moved on
@@iheartblock3792 thanks
So, what you're saying is...
"Class systems are complicated..."
Yeah,you can put it like that
But you wouldn't be able to work with it if it's so condensed
Deus Vult infidel?
"The Revolution will be coming in a month or so" I wonder how prescient this joke will end up being.
Hopefully very 😃
You have no idea
The Revolution will not be televised...it will be posted on UA-cam
One month have past, as expected, no revolution
@@carso1500 When the glorious revolution comes, would you prefer the guillotine or the gulag? the Jacobins are going to need to know your preference.
I love Dragon Age for how it treats magic. Mages are low on status, and are typically taken from their families for their safety. They are a danger, but in the third game, they rebel. Templars, the ones that train to keep the mages away from the public, are seen as protectors or tyrants. And the highest level a mage has ever known to touch in the common people’s government is essentially a court jester, until Madame Vivienne, who you can meet. The highest templar you see replaced a ruler of a city-state, that being Knight-Commander Meredith. Also, elves are the oppressed people in Dragon Age, either forced to live as slaves, in servitude, in aleinages (basically a ghetto), or are nomadic people that frequently fight with human cities. They had a grand empire and were defeated during an Exalted March, which is a religious crusade and their empire was destroyed. And the dwarves have a full-on caste system, complete with an underbelly of untouchables both in the city and outside. If a dwarf sees the sky, they can no longer live in the underground kingdom.
Dragon age had some really good worldbuilding in it. It's one of the reasons I still love that game (please for the love of the Maker, Bioware, do not f**k up the next Dragon Age, and please don't let EA make you put in micro-transactions, some cosmetics are fine, I won't like it, but some of that, is far better than a ton of various ones, though again I prefer none at all, sorry, kinda saw red for a second there).
Dark Rite You’re so completely right, but after the failure of Anthem and Andromeda, paired with the success of Jedi Fallen Order and the most anticipated game being Cyberpunk 2077, EA may realize they need to leave Bioware alone. It’s a crackpipe dream, but here’s hoping...
@Berserking Bishop Agreed on Dragon Age 2, cause I really wasn't a fan of what they did art style wise among other things. Inquisition wasn't bad, it was fun, the story was decent, and I like a lot of the things you could do in it. But I will note that it certainly didn't have the same impact of Origins, and while it's almost as replayable as Origins, I think Origins was truly the best of them story wise. Though that's just me, I can certainly understand dislike of it in comparison to the first game.
The important thing on the magic in DA is actually just how absurdly powerful it is. They physically walked into the Fade and you do that too because of magic. The Tevinter Imperium values magic ability and bloodline above all else and the Archon and Black Divine are both extremely powerful mages from what I remember, while most of the rest of the world sees mages as the cause of Darkspawn since the first Blight happened during the hegemony of the Tevinter Imperium and was a disastrous conflict of over two centuries. Even the second blight was absurdly long and devastating, I think coming in somewhere around 80 years? All that colored the modern thinking of the Chantry which led to so much influence in normal people. The mages rising up is even more so important not just because of oppression but because they find out that the main threat to them (being made Tranquil) is actually reversible. (It's in one of the novels. Forget the title right now. Great read.)
The elves, even more importantly as we find out, valued the same thing until an internal revolution toppled their actual empire (you find this out in Tresspasser DLC in Inquisition - really highly recommend it) and all subsuquent attempts were quelled because without their omni-present magic elves in general are weaker than humans or Qunari. The novel "The Calling" reveals that the an elf and human hybrid is always human which also adds more to the fact that elves are doomed without their magic.
The dwarves need so much more stuff. With the other major Thaig (Kal Shirok? I forget the spelling or name) now confirmed to be discovered and successful against Darkspawn and completely independent of Orazammar, plus the changes we already saw brewing in DA:O, it will be interesting to see how things might change for the casteless and if Orzammar will accept them more permanently.
I don't like Dragon Age for how it treats its elves because, to me, it seems like a blatant rip off from The Witcher series without understanding how it worked in The Witcher. For elves to be oppressed for their looks doesn't work in DA when you have black and brown people walking around without any care in the world. It works in the Witcher because, even though the elves and the Witchers look like anyone else from afar, when they get close enough for people to see their abnormal features it becomes something that is picked apart for how different it is. Because their ears (or the eyes for Witchers) are the only thing that differentiate them from the rest of the people in the Witcher world it is used as a form of petty prejudice and that is a clever way to create oppression that makes sense. In DA it doesn't make any sense.
I never realized just how underdeveloped my world building was when it comes to classes. It had suddenly become something I wanted to work on more but I had been solely focused on rankings among military, not over all status of the people and where they fit in in the world.
Hey, think of it this way. Depending on your military system, those military ranks may equate to their social standing. Take Knights or Samurai- they were a proffession as much as they were a social status.
Looking forward to the next half.
I concur. We need The Soviet Union part 2 to wrap up where the prior had left off
Not sure if you've seen Ascendance of a Bookworm, but it handles writing lower class interaction with the upper class super well. Loved the video!
I like the show but I can't get over that the buildings in the "poor" parts of town look like they were built in the 1970s, with perfectly angled concrete bases and symmetrical windows (with glass!) while the show is supposed to be set in a fantastical late-medieval-style period.
@@commander31able60 you know, I never thought about that! Haha. That is a bit strange, honestly
commander31able maybe they were built with magic
@@commander31able60 this is the type of thing wierd but maybe can be explained later with their magic system.
@@skylordguy6861 knowing how limited magic is in that setting I seriously doubt it. I also hate how magic is just handwaveium and not an actual system to so many people.
10:26 “Like we should have for people who prefer dogs to cats”
I feel attacked here.
What if you like both equally?
@@Orange_Swirl mmm, we'll have to create another class for that. Maybe you can be a merchant lol.
@@TheShitArtist Ohh, So I may end up a merchant for liking both. Oooo. Intense.
Good
@@TheShitArtist You make it sound like being a merchant is bad. You know rich you can potentially end up being?
"...why the Irish peasants relied on the less nutritious potato..."
Except that the potato was the single most nutritious crop available, relative to land usage. The entire reason Ireland grew to be so heavily reliant on the potato is because the potato was the only crop nutritious enough to feed both the populace of Ireland and meet the English demands for food exports. There are even studies pondering the health and stature of the Irish peasant vs the French peasant. The conclusion at the time, because genetics were new and eugenic explanations for things were generally accepted, was that there was a genetic superiority to the Irish peasant, but the modern interpretation of the data is that it's entirely due to the difference in diet - potato vs grains like barley.
The reason the Irish Potato Famine was so devastating was that the English demand for food exports from the subjugated Irish necessitated a near total monoculture of potato. It's less being poor and more being subjects of foreign and malicious rule.
That's really cool.
Yes, exactly, economics not intent. People act like the upper classes were keeping the best food, in reality the potato was a better choice than the overly meat heavy diet of those with greater wealth.
Yes this is why potatoes are great!
One addition I recently heard: Another big issue leading to the Irish Potato Famine was that a very poor selection of potatoes was brought over to Europe from South America, meaning the population of potatoes being produced in Europe had very low genetic diversity. This resulted in making the potato much more uniformly vulnerable to disease, so when a disease that killed one plant came along, every other plant was just as vulnerable to it.
This isn't the last time that kind of thing happened, either. If you've ever had artificial banana flavouring and noticed how not-banana it tastes like, that's because it was designed for a different type of banana, which were all pretty close to being clones of one another. Disease came along and wiped out the whole world's crop of banana trees. So we found a new banana tree variety, and have done the exact same thing with the current kind of banana. At some point, it's all but inevitable that the exact same thing will happen again because "learning from history, what is that?" So enjoy bananas while we have them, we don't know when the entire species we're using is just going to drop off the face of the earth.
The great Myshkerian revolution is coming. Arise Comrades and fight in the name of our late Supreme Leader Mishka.
I believe I may have spelled the name wrong. I will now go commit sepuku while you all take on the revolution without me
Wth you're not the top comment? This is mind-blowing!!
da comrade ! TIME FOR GLORY !
For Glory of the Eternal Revolution!
I see you everywhere.
I also see you everywhere
I don't want to imagine how I would tackle my dream of being an author without Tim's videos
Discovery writing? 🤷🏻♂️
"NO IDEA WHY IM PAUSING HERE", This is GOLD. Thank you! Also, as always, love your story writing content!
Been working on my worldbuilding since 2018 and when I saw this channel, IT HELPED ME A LOT. Now I'm more into national history of nations in my own fictional world and dang, there are at least fifty of them more or less and 11,000 years to fill! (in its timeline which was truly insane on its own LOL) Challenging but fun and also satisfying. THANK YOU! ❤
are you still there?
if yes...is the worldbuilding complete?
@@kaiseralok07 it is! Though I had a long hiatus now so I've been stuck with almost 25% of my fictional world's complete history and culture.
@@Kneirrosworld builders disease.
@@Bzerker01 update: it's now at 80%
Could have a class system within a caste system, even. A sort of range limit on one's mobility.
Sanderson's stormlight archive does this well. I'm actually surprised it didn't come up more in the video. In the novels there's a strict caste system split into lighteyes and darkeyes, but within the two categories, not only are different colour variations associated with different ranks in terms of cultural status, there are gradations depending on people's roles and occupations in society.
A darkeyes can rise in social rank through advancement in the military, for example, and there are darkeyes who through military service or marriage attain a rank which is equivalent to the social rank of minor lighteyes. Due to their access to power and wealth, there social status is acknowledged to be higher (even if technically their social rank isn't).
Nevertheless, a darkeyes person can only ever rise so far without accessing a Shard which causes their eyes to permanently change to a light colour.
The reasons for this are tied into that particular nation's ( the Varin nation, iirc) culture and religion, and linked to a whole set of rituals and beliefs. It's a very nuanced and believable system that gives the impression of having developed over a really long period of time. Sanderson's world building is just next level.
Or multiple intersecting caste systems within a single upper/lower class system, with anything but upper caste all across relegating you to lower class
Huh, what does that remind me of
Darn, that was actually a pretty convincing American accent, **better than my New Zealand accent at least. lol**
Everyone can do an ameican accent, since everyone knows what they shound like.
10:09 Shard BLADE, the process of binding the dead blade changes the eye color, owning a PLATE makes you practically lighteyes, but not physically.
In one of my projects, there's a horizontal class system- each of the clans, and the Diamorn, who aren't technically a clan; their role is to be an impartial place to raise younglings, protect eggs, and provide mediators and a place for negotiations. They do also have most of the features of a clans such as healers, but are reliant on the others for food and supplies, just as the others are reliant on them because they have the entire species' young. So while they're all technically on the same level, the Diamorn have the most power and influence.
14:05 I'll dispute that point. Potatoes are in fact, highly nutritious as it is entirely possible to live off potatoes and a calcium source as a long-term diet. The high productivity of potatoes compared to other crops and especially when considering Irish soils are why Irish peasant predominantly grew potatoes. It was because of the class system of English domination that cause exorbitant rents by absentee landowners that made potatoes the only viable crop.
I think people are getting the wrong meaning in what I said there. I was simply meaning potatoes were in high supply and were viable crops, so they were cheap and widely available. Hence why it's in the section about wealth as the determining factor.
~ Tim
I'd just like to point out that there's more to class in Stormlight Archives than eye color. There's an enumerated caste system in place as well.
(Also it's the Shardblade that changes eye color, Shardplate does not bond to the wielder as far as I'm aware.)
Somebody has probably mentioned this already, but your videos have a near ASMR effect in addition to being absolutely brilliant period
This is what I get for not checking any social media... a sudden video I wasn't expecting, but desperately needed. A thousand-and-one thank yous!
"how class systems start, and how they collapse"
that joke about revolutions is apt tho, considering knowing how things happen and can be made to un-happen, as it were, are very good steps to having a successful revolution
The best example of a class system in fiction is red rising, it explores an interesting caste system. And is really good in general. 10/10 recommend
UA-cam: *sees into*
UA-cam: aaaaand demonitized
Interesting that racist and sexist propaganda is okay as long as they don´t say it loud.
Minor quibble: in the Stormlight Archive, it is bonding to a Shard*blade* that causea a change of eye color.
All in all good stuff though :D.
One of my favorite class mix ups lately came from Fire Emblem Three Houses, each of the units have different reactions to which route you go down, and while you’d assume most of the nobles would want to keep a noble society they are all more than happy to overthrow the status quo in Edlegard’s route
That one is particularly interesting because while the means of enforcement for the existing hierarchy haven't entirely decayed, the bloodline-exclusive magic it rests on is thinning out and so the upper class is also feeling the pressure, with some noble characters becoming disillusioned (e.g. Sylvain and Hanneman's backstories). The religion is also a factor, since the class system relies on it to justify itself while going against its stated moral values. Basically, the power hasn't actually shifted yet, but almost nobody is satisfied with the existing system anymore, and in all endings it changes in some ways.
Михаил Дворецкий I’m in the middle Rhea’s route but so far only Dimitri keeps a monarchy while Claude and Edelgard both do a representative republic / oligarchy based on merit, but even in Dimitris route they talk about the need to uplift citizens without crests which strays away from fantasy’s bad habit of magic blood = rightful ruler that FE is super guilty about
I love this stuff, it's like watching Masterclass
This was amazing, Tim, thank you. I should've had my notebook handy. Ah well, this is what second watch-throughs are for.
I’m in a world building workshop class rn and realized that I’ve never really done much world building before, not to this depth, at least. This video helped a lot!
The perfect beginning doesn‘t exist
Tim: hold my beer
and hold up your weapons, tools and fists-united! For me shall strike down our oppressors. Rise up, my brethren! Do not fear for your lives- you only have your chains to lose
so many layers to consider especially when you have multiple characters all from different backgrounds and even different fantasy species. man this is gonna be tough lol
8:52 this is also sort of true for the Grishaverse series, depending on the region and country. For example, Ravka is a country that's the safest for the magical people, the Grisha. But Grisha are also heavily discriminated against as they are seen as other, even in this supposed safe haven for them.
i was brainstorming with this in the background and looked up to see Tim's evil smiling face atop a class pyramid. i laughed way too hard
I saw Nier:Automata on the thumbnail and really wanted to hear something about it. But then it was just used for one tiny example. *sad android noises*
beep boop?
I'm actually a bit triggered by it. I mean he say's "android society" but then quotes YoRHa type designations, which literally only apply to the YoRHa units and even then aren't accurate, since only Scanner and Operator are actual types in the lore. The "fighter" is a grouping of A, B, D, and G types, "Commander" isn't a type but is a specific character, and the H (Healer) type is left unmentioned..
Clicked because of 2B lmao
I don't even have a system to play the game, just like her design
Same bro
Hey dude :) French fan here. Just ordered your book! Thanks for all the advices. It really helps to get the technicity of it all. Kudos!
That Edward scissorhands reference killed me
I was planning on creating class system in one of my worlds so it's good thing that you made this video. Cant wait to see the second one.
A really good example of class systems can be seen in modern soc... I mean the Dragon Age world setting. Reading into the lore the classes of various countries have distinct features to them: such as Orlesian nobles all wear masks to hide their face (particularly from the poor), and in Tevinter being a mage or relative of a mage gains you higher social class, generally relating to power and status. Dwarves have a very rigid caste system which stems from ancestor worship, in which warriors, servants and Smith's (the three most commonly referred to) are binding and within the castes you have Houses which are the descendants of Paragons (deified ancestors) who have even greater power. The lowest in society are the casteless who are 'rejected by the stone' and 'cast out by the ancestors'.
The qunari also have a caste system (sort of) in which only males can be in the military, only females can be engineers, scientists or scholars, but there is a mix for the primary production. The castes are dictated by their philosophy (the "three sections of the Qun" being: the soul (scholars), blood (production), and body (military). There is even known to be specific breeding within the society so it's possible that individuals of certain castes may be physiologically different.
Really cool setting
I'm being constantly reminded throughout this video of how amazing Ascedance Of A Bookworm's world building is. Gives me the fan chills.
Nationalise the means of meme production, comrades!
Rise comrades! Noone will stop internet revaluation!
This is a godsend, I was JUST developing my story's economic system and class system~
Here's some ideas I got from watching this.
I was thinking of making a cast/class system mix. There is upper, mid, lower and no class and inbetween those classes casts like Priests, Royalty, Warriors, Farmers and such exsist. Not all classes have the same casts and not all folks are equal even if they are the same Class/Cast.
for instance, Mid Medical Farmers are concidered FAR above regular farmers of any kind and even above Upper luxury farmers since medical needs are always more important than Luxuries BUT clearly the upper Luxury farmers will always have more money, hell even mid and lower Luxury Farmers have more money (the amount clearly varies).
For priests, there are several kinds due to religion. The most respectable amongst all of them are Wind Priest but they have the least money. They are some of the very few Priests that travel the whole country and talk to people of all classes/casts. Then there are the Sun Raise Priest who stay in the Upper Class, the Twilight Prist who Run schools and then the Tailed Priest who stricktly live in the lower class.
Religious Upper Class folks often view Manhunters (military) and Doctors as a reasonable extention of Priests. Why? Because Manhunters and Drs take care of the physical which is considered just as important as the spiritual since both can effect eachother but there are some disagreements. Some of the RUC say it's only the Drs that count, Some say it's only the Manhunters while others Both.
One term I had made to show class differences was for Demons that can posses people.
Hearth Weights (UC)
Waved Weights (MC)
Waved Eyes Demons (LC)
Demons (NC)
There are also some things that are considered high status no matter what, clothing being the main one. They live in a decent area where temperature dips aren't very bad (it's near the equator of their planet) so clothing isn't nessasary at all. It's mainly a status thing. Also "Spider" Silk, "Goat" Tail and bird horn are materials that also signafy status.
My favorite part of this was at 4:52 where he kept all the New Zealand vowels and added American consonants. It was perfect in every way.
I tried assembling a list of books you've recommend or mentioned in your videos, because you seem to have really good taste and haven't left me astray so far, but now I've lost the list, and I don't think I have time to go through all your videos before my birthday. Would you consider recommending some books here or on Twitter so I actually have an answer when people ask me what I want?
you could start with getting the book Tim wrote if you don't have it, "On Writing and Worldbuilding"
@@juliarose3826 thanks! That one I was able to remember, but I'd honestly take any recommendations at this point.
the riftwar series is beautiful
I watch these world building videos for D&D this is so helpful All Hail the eternal leader Mishka!!!
Uh, what? In The Witcher, sorcerers and sorceresses are some of the most powerful and influential people in the world, especially in the North. They're still influential in Nilfgaard, but the Emperor keeps them under an iron fist so they are basically servants to the Empire, like everyone else.
At most you could say that magicians aren't trusted because they have a power that most others don't have, which could give them a huge advantage in a lot of situations.
I think he was referring to social status, not necessarily power and influence.
@@glanni Even then, I'd argue that the statement that 'magic lowers your social status' is not wholly accurate, at least in the manner that it was implied in the video.
As an example, in the short story 'A Shard of Ice', Istredd, is an important figure within Aedd Gynvael, to quote the major "Indispensable to this municipality. Invaluable, I'd say. People hold him in high regard, locals and outsiders, too". Istredd, of course, is a mage who studied Ban Ard (and is a major dickhole to Geralt). Priests are also able to do magic, an example of that is Krepp, from the short story, The Last Wish, who may not be able to cast 'spells' (or so he claims) and his power comes from his 'faith'. He still was able to stabilise the portal for Geralt so he could save Yennefer (who I'd like to mention was fully clothed in the books, just saying). There are of course; druids, village witches, and of course, witchers, who all are able to do some degree of magic and each would have their own social standing within their respective communities.
These are all pre-Thanedd examples, but even then Thanedd was tied to the Northern Mages. So it wouldn't have effected the Nilfgaardian Mages, who are held to a different standard than their northern counterparts to begin with, as James previously mentioned.
I think that HFM was referring to witchers. They are - kind of - magical people, and their status is lower. He said that people view the magic users as cruel outsiders, which sounds just right for the witchers.
But yeah, mages were definitely powerful and influential. And witchers are very much not mages.
Sorcerers and sorceresses are powerful yes but Witchers and other “magical” creatures and beings are definitely lower class. Also in nilfguard mages are kept on a leash from the get go and
*spoilers*
After the destruction of the brotherhood in Time of Contempt they loose the majority of their political power and influence and are distrusted by the northern kings. Hence why Phillipa formed the lodge in secret to protect “the future of magic”.
Of course come the Witcher 2 game things go even worse for the mages and by the Witcher 3 they are basically fugitives in most nations.
I don’t know how I only just now discovered your videos but they are absolutely amazing and it’s obvious how much care and effort you put into your work idk if these comments mean much to you but I really appreciate your work
8:50 "In The Witcher, magic makes you less socially mobile... So consider Witch Things in your world..." (sorry couldn't let that one slide.)
Also, the mini sketches in between the info were hilarious!
Very insightful information as always! Currently revisiting your book to design my magic system. ^^
I was wondering if you could make a video in the future On Writing Humor? Definitely allows for many Avatar examples!
Thank you for including some Man of Steel in this video! It's one of my favorite movies (and my favorite superhero film), so it's cool to see others continue to bring up the philosophical aspects it introduced.
7:40 good news for you. I heard coal mining hell 1 just opened.
Love the starcraft reference. I remember my very first delve into lore and worldbuilding, and the seed that bloomed eventually into my desire to create my own worlds, was reading those large softcover Starcraft and Brood Wars guides.
I SHALL JOIN YOU IN THE CONQUEST, COMRADE
Wow, thank you for basically summarizing my 4 years study of sociology in 20 minutes. Great job btw , I love your videos!
Am there and I need that juicy juicy class, etc. Part of world building for my post apocalyptic then modernized fantasy world there! (Wondering how magic would fit into that...)
Is it one world that has lived through an apocalypse and has rebuild into a modern/urban fantasy?
@@MrWesford basically having it all rebuilt to semi-modern standarts again, so yeah...
+ technically basically everyone could do magic there (literally just called "power" there), so... there is that factor as well
@@somerandomgal3915 that would depend on what magic can do and how difficult it is. If it can do truly awe-inspiring feats BUT requires decades of diligent study and focus (possibly with a degree of danger/self-sacrifice) then those that can wield magic will become wealthy and powerful, either by being the protectors of land, settlements and the people in it (rather like how warriors became knights and lords in the first place) or by providing key goods and services that people want and/or need. If however it is essentially just parlour tricks and flashing lights and can be mastered in an afternoon, then it'll be not much more than a low status entertainer. Its finding the point on the two axes (yeah the plural of axis just looks wrong even after checking the spelling twice) of difficulty and utility to allow your mages/wizards to find their economic niche.
@@daveharrison4697 the range is from flashy tricks to awe-inspiring feats, from ridiculously easy to learn to you may need a whole life time to do so if you are lucky and also from pretty harmless to it's easy to end up getting yourself killed there... the question there is less how costly or often is magic being done there... magic or rather power in there is abundant... the real question is there more, what would people end up using it for? And on top of that there is also no unified theory of magic discovered there yet (as in the full magic system itself) but more like a few rules of a few arrays of the magic there (which may even overlap with each other there) and not everyone will understand these rules equally well if presented with the opportunity to learn them...
and what I forgot to mention earlier: there is also a method (more like a technology tbh. since there are supposed to be a lot of in world inventions using this) with which you can go around all this understanding and learning there on the cost of using actual ressources for this... (haven't decided yet, wether or not this is some kind of magical not abundant ore or ressource or just something very hard and costly to make there)
@@somerandomgal3915 Then it comes under the "same but different" problem! So far it can achieve everything non-magical means can achieve but in parallel. If it was me, I'd be working on imposing some quite serious limits BUT also ensuring that it is the only way of doing something that can be considered valuable. That then gives magic users and economical/ecological niche to exploit.
Famous examples (even though not quite magic in some cases) could be the Spacing Guild navigators from Dune having a monopoly on interstellar travel, astropaths from Warhammer 40,000 having a monopoly on interstellar communication, or indeed the Mechanicum in the same Warhammer 40,000 having a virtual monopoly on technology more advanced than small arms (and still having a monopoly on the systems that make up lesser technology).
I just learned the difference between Giffen and Veblen goods thanks to your video, Tim. Thank you :)
I'm a simple man: I see stormlight, I watch video
Good to see the video starting with wealth, fame, and power
A good example of a Caste System are the Dwarves from Dragon Age: Origins.
GLORIOUS!
But seriously though, I'm barely 5 minutes in and already this has inspired some serious worldbuilding questions and solutions that my world sorely needed.
I can just feel the world shifting into place as I ask the proper questions and answer them in greater detail.
It's been nothing short of a...revolutionising experience.
If you see this:
Thanks Tim!
And if you don't see it:
Thanks Tim!
Let’s never forget: *Good World building takes effort.*
Great video! After watching your videos, you always present questions that I would never conjure up with my world building for my novel. Your logic and discerning of different subjects cause me to go deeper. I truly enjoy your videos wish you had more!
I'm a simple man. I see Zuko and 2B, I click.
Long live the revolution!!! Power to the people!!!
having magic is like being born with an assault rifle
Although I'm not interested in any kind of fiction creating, this video was so fun to watch!
19:48 The Supreme Overlord will be very interested in your opinion regarding your place.
Your series has inspired me to write my own fiction. Thank you for bringing us these powerfully informative videos, Tim. Your book inspired me to fresh, new perspectives on my world, and I thank you for that.
Nooooooooo! I was hoping you'd talk about clans, house, and how they work in world building.
For that try looking at a summary of the Wars of the Roses (some bloke called George R. R. Martin did that and had some modest success) or the Sengoku Jidai period in Japan.
This has made a lot of sense why my world is the way it is.
Let's go my comrades. Let's destroy class based hierarchical structures in our own fantasies , because we sure as hell don't have a chance doing so in this dystopia ;D
If we did, nothing would stop another hierarchical structure from taking shape. It just be like that sometimes.
A las barricadas, comrade!
@@MrWesford I mean, how about proper democracy with checks and balances taken seriously? Y'know, anarcho-communism?
;-;
@@MrWesford That's why you have to organize horizontal power structures and democratic cooperatives *before* the revolution kicks off.
One of my favourite examples of differing ideologies between classes is the division between the more urban Confucianists and the more rural Thaoists in ancient China.
Most people watching this are probably D&d DM's XD
Well I am so...
DM, you say? DAFuq are you talkin about?
Well, when you're writing you can just make the characters never think about the funnily details, but your players will definitely want to know wether they can give a nobleman more money to lower their status and increase the players own power.
I remember one episode of Victoria where they visit Scotland. The nobles are having their gallant ball, while the servants and other low borns had a dance outside the castle. The servant's dance was less formal and the music and dancing were much more lively. Reminded me of river music in America during the same era.
"I love hello future me"
>impose dogs aren't inherently better than cats.
*"you're dead to me"*
no species better than another, abolish all unjust hierarchies, from each according to having hands, to each according to wanting to be petted.
Hi and thanks. Because thank to you I can write more complete and deep world's to my players in role-playing games :)
16:25 sorry, but I would pick delicious squid rings over all the diamonds in the world any day.
This channel is among the few where I instantly press "Like" as I know I'm in for a great treat ^_^
"Wealth"
Demonitized
Just when i got back into writing today. Exactly what i needed.
Sees opening
me: MI GENERAL AGUSTO PINOCHET
I really, really enjoy videos like this. I don't care much about the more direct content analysis, even if I've seen whatever you're talking about, but stuff like I this I can apply to my own Tabletop games and improve their quality.
Yes, I love DM guides! And his videos aren't too rambly or uneventful, so it's easy to stay attentive.
Video: **starts**
HFM: **communist propaganda intensifies**
Me: *Nani mi comrades?!*
I still can't believe I'm watching these for free
"Having an upper class in an Earth-like society with all the wealth but none of the power and none of the status is probably unrealistic."
*Laughs in Edo Period Merchant Class*
For a real world example about class and language, I was astonished when I watched They Shall Not Grow Old, and I swear you can hear crystal clear which of the veterans being interviewed were officers and which were enlisted men. It's obvious when you think about it but I was shocked at how pronounced the difference was.
Come Comrads we must help this fellow servant of the Soviet Union with hitting the like button.
Stalin approves 👍
These videos on class have set off a cascade of dominoes in my mind, you cannot imagine... I'll probably forget about it in five minutes or so tho lol