Re-plating Leaking Valve of a Trumpet
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- Brass instrument valves wear over the time and may start to leak. This is my first try at re-plating a valve. In this video I'll show how to identify a leaking valve and how I think it could be repaired by re-plating.
00:00 Intro
00:22 Theory and reasoning
04:05 Valve plating process
07:19 End test
07:58 Outro
Good video showing the process.
People should be aware that the cleaning of the parts to be plated is 90% of the process of plating, and will determine if the plating sticks. Almost all electroplating failures are due to insufficient cleaning. Even when you 'think' it's clean enough, it probably isn't. Electrocleaning is required, and the object must be clean down to the molecular level.
Good point, that's absolutely so. Thank you for your comment.
Thank you for posting, is nice to see someone actually do it
Excellent demonstration on a very important topic for all brass players. Thank you.
Thanks!
Tosi hyviä videoita. Kiitos Timo. My dream was to fix/repair brass instruments, like you are doing, but it never happened. It is fun to watch you do it. Greetings from Canada.
Kiitos!
Thank you, Timo - that was very informative.
Excelente video!
Es un tema muy ignorado por muchos trompetistas y es muy necesario este servicio para nuestras trompetas.
¡Gracias!
Great video!
Thanks!
Hi Timo, this Video is very interesting. It's a good ideal, to make the plating at home ! It's funny, that you plate a nickel valve .
I'm playin my Getzen Severinsen Trumpet since 1979. But the nickel plated valves work very well..I think, these nickel valves are definitely the best kind of valves. Your plating method will be much more interesting for users of monel and Steel valves and Ithink, the method is the same..copper and the nickel, correct?
Best wishes from germany, peter
Thanks Peter! Yes, method is the same for monel and steel. Copper sticks easily so it goes first and then final layer with nickel.
Much appreciated! Thankyou.
Very good...excelent information
Thanks!
Found your video fascinating. One question. Did your electro-plating reduce the sized of the pass through holes of the value?
Thank you! Yes, you are right, electro-plating did reduce the diameter of the valve ports, I should have covered the ports first.
Thankyou for sharing a great project . Was it difficult to prepare the electrolyte solutions for the plating process ?
Thanks! Nickel electrolyte is quite easy to make yourself, but the copper electrolyte I bought from Tifoo.
I wow! This was great!
Thank you!
Greetings, Timo. First of all, I want to thank you for such an informative video. All processes are perfectly described, and it is clearly shown that the main points in the application of electroplating depend on the preparation for coating and subsequent lapping of valves. I was wondering what kind of alkaline solution you used during the electrolytic cleaning of the valve in the first stage? It's just that this is a very important point for a better coating, and if you choose the wrong alkaline solution, then there is a chance that the coating may disappear over time. Thank you, Timo, for continuing to improve this world.
Thank you! I used the degreaser from Tifoo www.tifoo.de/en-uk/degreaser
What an excellent and informative video, thanks! ...I have one question, how did you know the valve casing was perfectly round without mic-ing it?
Thanks! For this video I just inspected the casing with light to see there are no dents, but you can't make sure it's perfectly round by just inspection. I usually use a ground casing mandrel but I didn't have exact mandrel for that casing. To be absolutely sure it'd need to be machined with lathe. www.ferreestoolsinc.com/products/n58a-ground-casing-mandrel-631-700
Fantastic video! Are you using copper electrolytes from Tifoo? If so which one (the alkaline or acidic?)
Thank You! I'm using the acidic bright copper electrolyte from Tifoo.
Love this well done video! Could you possibly put links to the chemicals and anode materials you used and whatever kit for voltage or the voltage itself in your description. And how you made the nickel electrolyte. I just bought a 1925 King Liberty trumpet, that in the pics, the valves show as copper, so I'm sure they need plating. Also, what grip paper were you using to lap the valves? I assume you took a block of wood, drilled the right size hole, then cut it in half, to make that valve lapper, very resourceful. I'd thought of using auto valve lapping compound in the casings themselves, but you'd have to work them in a little at a time.
Thanks! You can find all the stuff for electroplating from www.tifoo.de/en-uk/ and they also have good instructions. I bought the lapping block and compound from Ferree's Tools:
www.ferreestoolsinc.com/products/l58-lapping-compound
www.ferreestoolsinc.com/products/n20-24-valve-lapping-blocks
I have pitting in my euphonium valves , would it be reasonable to over plate and than lap it down until the pitting is removed? Lots of great info there...thanks.
Pitting doesn't necessarily matter if the valves don't leak and there are no sticking issues. To remove the pitting you'd need to buff the valves first clean, then plate and lap them.
Hello from Brussels Dear Timo !
Thank you for you instructive video.
Please, I would like to know if the valves of different materials (monel, steel, nickel) have different weights.
Warm regards !
Hello and thank you! The different valves feel about the same weight in your hand, but I haven't really used a weight scale to check it.
@@timyllym I would like to know if you recommend different viscosities for each valve type. For example, a light oil for monel or thicker oils for stainless steel. Thanks!
I think the viscosity depends more on how tight the valve is in its casing. For new and tight valves you need thin/light oil, but for worn valves thick oil is better.
Awesome work ! Is it possible to electroplating monel instead of nickel ?
Thanks! It may be possible to electroplate a valve with monel but I haven't done it. It may require some special equipment.
Monel is an alloy made up of several different metals, and is similar to stainless steel. Alloys are difficult to plate because the different metals in the alloy will plate at different rates and at different amounts of electrical current and voltage. So basically, no, one cannot plate monel. Stainless steel cannot be plated for the same reason.
Do you check the bore of the valve to make sure the (holes in the piston)haven't gotten smaller?
The valve ports probably did get a little smaller in diameter. Ideally the ports should be covered with wax, white-out etc before plating.
Short question here, why do you need to do a copper plating instead of Nickel plating it directly? I have a trumpet from the 50s student model, but sounds awesome and it looses quite a bit of air, i'd love to try and increase its piston tightness :P
Copper is easier to work with, it is softer metal than nickel. You should plate the valve a little too thick with copper and then lap it to match the valve casing. Copper is easier to lap than nickel. But nickel as final layer is more slick and durable than copper.
@@timyllym Yes, very true. Part of the reason copper is used first is that copper is a great base coat for any further plating. Everything "sticks" to copper. Copper also plates faster than nickel, so it's better to build up pitted or worn pistons with copper. I have read that thick layers of nickel can peel and flake off from the surface tension of the deposited nickel. Copper is very stable and does not peel.
Thanks Bob, that's good info!
I have a small collection of older trumpets and cornets; (ranging in age from 1959-1974). I’ve noticed that a few of my horns blow out-of-key no matter how I adjust the slides. I am currently in the process of replacing spit-valve corks, but I have a feeling, after watching your video, that the valves are the problem. I don’t live in an environment where I can do what you did on this video. I wonder, how much do you think it would cost to have someone do this?
I don't really know the work costs in US (I live in Finland) but it may be around $100 per valve, but try to look for a local repair technician who has done valve plating and you may get it cheaper.
It may also be an alignment rather than a compression issue. If the valve corks/felts or valve guides are worn, then the valve holes won't align exactly with the tubing holes. You can get a precision valve alignment (PVA) done, or google some DIY methods. The parts are cheap, but measurement is tricky.
Yes, that's a good point. Valves must be aligned properly.
Can bad alignment actually lead to blow by, or leaks in the valve/valve casing?
Hello, I had to like this video of course :) Can you also show how to monel - plate a valve and how to plate brass - valve - slides?
Thanks! You can't plate with monel or brass because they are alloys. Plating must be done with pure metals like nickel and copper.
@@timyllym well, i have found a few methods for electrochemical brass plating. one is using a mixture of alkaline salts and copper and zinc cyanide for sure. as for monel plating, how does the industry get´s it on the valve then?
Ok, that's great! I'm really not that much specialized in electroplating.
@@olympicfan2 The valves are made of monel metal, they are not plated with monel. Monel is an alloy, and most alloys are difficult or impossible to plate. Brass is one of the few alloys that can be plated, but only with specialized solutions.
What type acid did you use to clean with
I use this product from Gateros Plating: www.gaterosplating.co.uk/product-page/gp-jewellery-pickle-salts
Hello, what acid do you use? Thank you.
I used www.gaterosplating.co.uk/product-page/dry-acid-salts-pickle-and-etch
Pense que era Junior Torres de Banda Cuisillos
Hello!
Is it possible with monel ?
And what is the process ??
Hi, you can't electroplate monel because it's an alloy. You can only plate with pure metals.
@@timyllym
Ok. What is the best to electroplate on Monel.. nickel ??
It is usually good to have a layer of copper first because copper sticks well. Then final layer of nickel because it is more hard and slick.
You also plated the interior of the ports. That has now changed the bore size at each port.
You are right, I probably should have covered the ports with something. Thanks for advice!
Agree. White-out is a popular option for masking parts before plating, like nail polish. But keep in mind that the plating will likely not adhere well inside the ports because they were not buffed, and the plating thickness is less than 0.01mm which
Ok, thanks for the tip! I'll try white-out.
@@timyllym Try filling the ports with hot wax. Works a treat.
Thanks, gotta try that.
Hello, thank you for your efforts in passing on highly precious knowledge. I'm from Brazil, I'm learning about replating the valves, I watched a video by an American technician: ua-cam.com/video/8VFQ6s0WDpk/v-deo.html , where he had the replating done, but he worked on the valve body, so that they would be cylindrical too, I noticed that in your video you skipped this part only worked on the valves, my question is: do you believe it is unnecessary to work on the valve body? Thank you very much
Hello, thanks for your message! Straightening both the body of the valve and valve casing are essential, it needs to be done first. I refer to this in my video, but it is maybe emphasized too little. In my case the valve body and casing were already straight, so no work was required for them.
@@timyllym Hello. Many thanks for the reply!
Valuable information, but fantastically horrible audio quality. Please work on that side. Greetings!
Yep, I've bought a new mic after making this video.
poor volumn
Audio is low and noisy.
You are absolutely right, I should invest to a better microphone.
Well, your knowledge of colourful metallurgy is pitiful..😂😂😂