I Destroyed a Trumpet While Trying To Fix a Valve
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2021
- While trying to repair a trumpet I did far more damage and the valve cluster was destroyed.
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We love and appreciate your honesty! It takes a special person to publicly say they messed something up! And since your actually making it better than before.... you really didn't mess up at all.
I'm glad to see that there are still some honest repairmen. Art is truly a man of integrity. May God bless him.
Everybody is good when things go the way they are supposed to go. It's how you handle it when things DON'T go the way they are supposed to go that shows how good you really are. Well done, sir.
The entire time you were hammering the mandrel I was tensed up like it was a thriller movie waiting for something awful to happen. Good save all things considered!
Me too!
Two things I really appreciated about this video…your careful analysis of the what the problem may be, and your integrity as a businessman/repair specialist/human being.
John! That's gotta be you!!😂
It is sooooo easy to create a problem with a brass instrument. I tried a ‘home repair’ on a small dent and ended up ruining that horn - never again! Guys like you are wizards. The emotional uplift with successful repairs is priceless.
This video is a great demonstration on how easily things can go wrong with a brass instrument, and also for coming up with a solution.
I had something similar happen recently. I bought a used Bundy cornet that is 30-40 years old as an alternate practice instrument to my trumpet. The valves and slides worked well; it just looked rough. I was removing one of the bottom valve caps when I heard a weird sound. It turned out to be a 3” long crack in the lead pipe. Knowing that a repair would likely require replacing the lead pipe with a cost more than the instrument itself, I ended up wrapping the lead pipe with masking tape to seal the leak. It’s ugly, but it works. 😆
If I buy a replacement I’ll probably donate the cornet for parts.
I sincerely hope your customers appreciate the amount of workmanship that goes to every repair, good is never cheap.
Kudos to you for explaining the failure. Stuff happens, but it's always good to acknowledge the issue and learn from it.
Thank you for your transparency. I've used the mandrel trick many times. It was hammered into me that you always keep the other valves in so that the other casings don't deform. Same for when you're aligning the bell tail.
I was wondering what may be happening to the other valve casings while he was working so much pressure and force onto that one.
Yes, you NEVER use a casing mandrel in a casing without the valves in the other casings.
Also, that's not how those mandrels are supposed to be used.
Yes, you tap on them...but you do so on the compass points, and also on the 45° points, not too hard, and repeatedly.
The vibration of the mandrel returns the casing to round.
The other thing to use, in fact probably what I would've reached for first, was an expandable lap.
I never lap with them, but I do expand them in the casing to return concentricity.
Very effective tool, that's inexpensive and easy to use.
All that being said, I've had pricier horns than what he's working on do the same shit, even with the valves are in the other casings.
Sometimes, shit is just what it is.
I'm not a brass tech, but at one time bought some cadaver horns to see if I had the touch. I actually had a good selection of tools and mandrels from a shop that had gone out of business, so had the correct equipment. What I learned was this is not a shade tree mechanic type skill and there is a fine, fine line between fixed and trashed.
You did an excellent job explaining the entire process and what went wrong. I agree, while that particular trumpet was not one of Conn's best efforts at a transitional time for the company, it was deserving of your best efforts. In the end, you made it right.
The honesty here is amazing. Much respect to you.
An honest repairman? This restores a little of my faith in humanity.
Respect your quality. This video made me realize how well I should take care of my instrument.
Good man. You have integrity. A rarity these days.
Stuff like this happens from time to time. What really impresses me is that there was no hesitation to make things right. We all can learn a thing or two from this video.
I've been fixing horns for 20 years myself and I have never seen one of those middle valve braces break either. That had to be the last trumpet somebody did on a Friday afternoon before an epic weekend.
Art, you are a master technician!!!!
I never get tired of seeing instruments pulled apart and brought back to life
Brilliant video Art, sometimes it happens but you showed how to deal with it professionally. Great job!
Thank goodness for donor instruments! Bravo for putting this out there. Too many want to sweep things under the carpet.
Very interesting and your honest approach is most appreciated.
Fascinating. Would have loved to see the final solder too. Great videos.
"I think all band instrument technicians have a story like this..."
yes, yes we do
A few actually....
I enjoyed listening to your troubleshooting process. Thanks!
That is what an honest businessman should do. Great video. 👍.
Great video, here you can learn how to repair and also what to look for! Accidents happen, this is a great video, because you also show how to solve it.
This trumpet experienced some type of physical trauma that was not obviously visible even to an experienced technician. Seemingly tiny defects in the build process can create unobservable weak points that under most circumstances will never be discovered throughout the life of most instruments.
Accidents involving instrument damage happen often within every band program and as a retired music educator I have personally witnessed a variety of mishaps with instruments some catastrophic. Teaching students to develop Proper respect for every instrument as a serious musical instrument of great value can never be overlooked or understated.
This was an excellent presentation in a step by step methodical observation and analysis of an unusual serious problem. Every reasonable technique was applied systematically and throughout the process, utmost care was demonstrated on the part of the repair in progress. It’s unfortunate it happened as it did but you can’t repair a situation that you can’t see. There is no CAT Scan device for instrument repair to show the tiny near invisible faults in instruments on the bench.
This was a very interesting and very revealing repair story and this is the kind of repair technician I would certainly recommend. 👍🏻
I'm glad that so many experts are out there.
In the overall scheme of things....it all worked out! Excellent!
I won't call this a fail,great video and great work...!
I think I've seen every single repair channel accidentally destroy an instrument. It happens to everyone.
This is a fascinating watch, thank you for sharing it. I wonder if a different tool could have reamed and straightened the tube more effectively than using vibration. Perhaps something like a mandrel but oval in profile, 664 in one diameter and 663 in the other diameter. You could insert the mandrel and apply a slow half turn to ream the tube into shape.
Awesome job!! Very impressed.
I noted the top of the first valve casing where it was bent on the threads like it had been bumped in the direction of the 2nd valve which could have fatigued the bottom joint connecting first and second valve. I have two of this large-bore model 1000B. One has the name Doc Severinsen on the bell and the mouthpiece with a signed endorsement from Doc about this horn as a good step-up beginner model. However my other newer 1000B has no endorsement and the Severinsen name is not there like the two in this video. This model CONN is similar to several other models I collected including: the16B, 20B, and 22B medium large bore all bought new. When moving the valves on some of these horns I found just LIGHTLY squeezing the casings make the first and third valves stop moving. These models really are that flimsy with more flexible cheaper brass and in NO way should be compared with "C. G. CONN Pro models from the beginning to mid century that are now some over 100 years old and still tough enough to be around today which I use for recording studio work. Bottom line this video empirically exposes truth in the newer Design of the 1980's and 90's. This is a breath of fresh air and you are a good teacher, Artisan, and a true craftsman.
Wow, these instruments are quite delicate
Excellent presentation!!
This was very informative thank you!
as a Trumpet player i am very delicate with my Trumpets, by just seeing how they are fixed it is very shocking.
Yes, that is right. It is best to keep them out of the repair shop if you can. However, keep in mind that this trumpet was far more damaged than most.
@@TheBrassandWoodwindShop I think also it's best that I don't see the repairer working on my horn...
It’s always like that, when you straighten you have to force, to shock it… I never straighten a saxophone in front of a customer, I know it’s shocking to see someone smash a saxophone on a table
Those valve bodies were under a great amount of stress from everything being tweaked. You releaved that stress, and allowed them to go where they wanted. But not where you wanted! 😨
I have had early (1870's-1920) French trumpets and bugles(Flugels) that break at that point when you are trying to free a slide. What a pain! Some of those early Euro horns are very lightweight and not so well silver-soldered. The USA and English ones are pretty tough, but sometimes they do a bad job with the silver solder. DOH! As a contrast, some of the Japanese trumpets have silver solder where they shouldn't (Yamaha second valve slide knob for example) and that makes it harder to fix some things.
I just got a job at Dana Hofers brass workshop in Chicago! I'm taking notes...
Congratulations. Let us know how it goes.
I know Dana. He does great work. Congrats.
Wow. That was a crazy defect.
I did that once on an old Regent cornet.I damaged the horn and I parted it out.The next time I did it,I decided to try using an old valve of the same diameter.It worked with a little oil to lubricate it.
Great video! Suspenseful too. I'm wondering what the lacquer was like on the finished product since it seemed to be in pretty good shape initially. Did the heat from the torch damage it?
The lacquer on the replacement valve block was in good condition to start with. Being VERY careful, I was able to solder with burning almost no lacquer. So everything went as well as could be expected.
Excellent job. You must have nerves of steel to push and pull even when using your two-handed safe-style hand grips.
Thanks for being honest dude. Just a bad combination of circumstances...
Great work Art! I'm curious to know how you would have fixed this problem had you not been fortunate enough to have a donor instrument available.
It would have been fixable using dis-assembly, 3 ground casing mandrels, a lot of tapping, silver soldering, clean up, a lot of soft soldering, and finally buffing and lacquering. In other words, I would have given him one of my trumpets that was in equal or better condition.
this is very suspenseful!
I am slightly confused as to why so many comments are praising the repairman's honesty. He fixed the instrument by replacing a section of it instead of bending it. What is so remarkably honest about this?
We all have had a nightmare like this happen. All you can do is make it right with the customer. I got in a Getzen with a stuck 1st valve a couple of days ago and I don't know if I want to open the case.
Did all the bracing line up? Just curious about Conn’s consistency. Love your videos mate, very educational 👍
I would think so but I think ones a regular 1000B and the customer one was a doc Severinsen Verizon
Yes, the solder marks did line up with only minimal brace bending.
I personally wouldn't say you destroyed it. ADDITIONALLY, you should have told the customer it was not fixable without replacing the valve cluster.....and that is a true statement. You could have told them there was a defect in the manufacturing that failed while you were attempting to fix it (maybe you did tell them). You are an expert, this would have broke if anyone tried to fix it, or it would have just remained unplayable. Charge for your time and service.
I read that Doc Severinson played a Getsen.
honesty- its in short supply these days. thank you
Way to go Sherlock!
I like that hook on your Prest-O-Lite tip. Was that your addition?
Yes, That is a trumpet finger hook. I soldered it onto the torch so I can hang it on a hook.
Great job on handling this situation. I have a pocket trumpet where the valves never ran smoothly. Could I send it to you? It's not an expensive instrument but I do love using it.
Yes you can send it to me, but on some of the inexpensive pocket trumpets, it can be hard to get the valves to work well. I am not sure if this is the case with yours, but I just want to let you know before you send it.
Hi I have an old Boosey and Hawkes Lafluer trumpet that needs a valve guide. Problem is that it is the one with the guide on only one side. I cant seem to find it anywhere. any idea where I can get one? I live in Malaysia. I could send pictures of the item. Would appreciate some help
Thanks
I wonder how you keep the finish on the brass after using a torch. Just curious!
Most kinds of lacquer burn at a little over 450 degrees. Solder melts at around 450 degrees. If you are very careful, you can solder without burning lacquer. (Most of the time.)
@@TheBrassandWoodwindShop :Thank you; I was working in the HVAC business and know some (sweating) with soft solder which melts at about 600 F; when using silver sticks, temps are much higher.
For assembly is there a jig you use and how do you fixture the parts? I am a metalsmith myself and among other things I make repro guitar tailpieces for jazz guitars. These are all hard silver soldered. Looking at my son's trumpet with a dent in it I now know what parts are hard soldered and what parts are not. Not that I am going to attempt a fix. Do not have the tools so I figured I could send it to you to fix.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. My wife just had a baby.
I do not have assembly jigs because the instruments are all different. I usually use a wooden assembly mandrel to hold the trumpet where I can easily get at it. Then I use solder clamps to hold it together. There are a few other tricks that can be used, but it all depends on what needs to be done.
You can send the trumpet. I will get to it as soon as I can.
Thank you,
Art
Any idea when the website will be back up?
They are working on it, but they ran into some problems. I am hoping it will be up in the next week.
Art
I have never sen a trumpet come apart like that. Was wondering if you ever use the Ferree's expanding reamer? That is what I would use on a repair like that.
I have never used a reamer because it expands the casing and makes a larger gap between the valve and the casing. Also, it indiscriminately expands the casing and not just in the place where it needs it. However, I guess I did a good job of destroying the trumpet, so it may have worked better than what I did to it.
@@TheBrassandWoodwindShop
If you are not super aggresive with the reamer they simply re-round the casing
If you think the burnisher/reamer instantly expands the casing and widens the tolerance between the piston and casing then you need to improve your finesse with the tool. They are amazingly effective and in my experience at least, tend to correct casing pings and minor alignment issues using little to no tension. And NEVER wail on a mandrel without some sort of support inside the casings, preferably their respective pistons. I hate to say it but seeing how little force was needed to free the piston tells me that the correction needed was likely improper first slide tube alignment or an overlooked casing ping. And remember to check the piston in the mandrel sleeve/check other pistons in problem casing before immediately diving into casing alignment. Better luck next time thanks for the post.
Was there a point at which you could have decided to ream and/or lap the small intruding area in the valve casing instead of continuing to use escalating force to attempt to push it back out of the way of the valve?
Reaming should only be done if you are re-fitting the valves because too much material is taken off and lapping does not remove enough material. Looking back, what I should have done is use two ground casing mandrels (one in the first casing and one in the second casing) and a lot more patience.
Making mistakes is painful, but it is one of the fastest ways to learn.
How does the soldered part turn golden?
If you buff off the solder, it reveals the brass under it.
@@TheBrassandWoodwindShop 👍
Am following from Kenya, My Trumpet has thé same problèm How can get you ï need your help
"Get the Big Hammer"
Would it have worked to put it in a sonic parts cleaner for a day? That horn is a real shame the way they let it waste away. It looks like it belonged to the trumpet player on the Titanic!
Do you think maybe next time you could use a reaming tool of some sort to remove a blockage like that before resorting to hammering, or would that be reserved for a hammering attempt, or maybe that's just too much? Actually... You seem like you're capable enough to figure that out. I just wanted to write something. lol
my stress level while watching this video as a trumpet player:📈📉📈📉📈📈📈📈
Would it be worth warming the trumpet for repairs like this... perhaps dunk it in near boiling water for some time? Brass is pretty soft anyway but hot brass should be a lot easier.
Water does not get hot enough to soften brass. Also, boiling water may take off some of the lacquer.
@@TheBrassandWoodwindShop I will take your word, never tried it.
Just like with kids, if people would tell you what they did to cause the problem, the solution would be easier to find. But as always it's Ida Know, or Not Me!
Trashed, time to wear the dunce cap for the rest of the day.
D'oh!!!
It should be fine to tap on bottom?..safer by far to pull than push no
Good job! You are someone I'd send my horn to anytime!
Did you call Doc? Maybe he knows the problem with his 1000B
why not just run a proper size reamer though there? It's only a couple thousands in a small place right? Wouldn't take much to knock that down.
If I was your customer I would have paid you the hourly rate for all of your work. I painted houses for a living and feel your pain.
Speaking mistakes, could you give some advice on how best to correct a run or sag in a lacquer refinishing job? It's inside the bell where it will show up like a sore thumb. (:>/.
Love your channel. I started working in a band instrument repair in high school. Then for a short while in college worked at night in a different shop. Now that I'm a retired engineer, I've been fixing up old trumpets, cornets, and trombones as a hobby.
I would probably strip the lacquer off of the entire inside of the bell and relacquer it. You could try to just strip off the one bad spot and see how it turns out, but I am guessing it probably will not look good.
@@TheBrassandWoodwindShop THANK YOU for the quick reply. I used G J Nikolas lacquer on brass instruments and this is the first time I will need to strip one. The most difficult lacquer has been on King instruments. I have a 30-gal. NaOH solution tank that I heat to 160-deg F and even with that the King horns are stubborn. This is a bell from a 90-year-old euphonium that I've straightened. I'm hoping to be able to used a commercial paint stripper just for the inside of the bell. Any recommendations?
I wish I could help more, but it sounds like you know more about lacquering than I do. Have you watched this video? I do not know if it will help or not.
"How To Strip Lacquer Off of a Trumpet" ua-cam.com/video/wfxVatKXh7I/v-deo.html
@@TheBrassandWoodwindShop Thanks. I watched the video. I've purchased a lot of tools and supplies from Ferree's but I've never tried their lacquer stripper. Seems to work well. The brush-on stuff I've used before was from the local hardware store and it works okay on most manufacturer's horns except King. Earlier today, I decided to try the CitriStrip I bought for stripping some wood trim. CitriStrip contains no methylene chloride or NSM so doesn't give off toxic odors. It works very slow however. To keep it from evaporating so It can work longer, they recommend covering the area with plastic to seal out the air. I'll let you know tomorrow how well it worked.
@@TheBrassandWoodwindShop The CitriStrip worked quite well. I left it on the bell with cellophane covering it for about 24 hours and it removed all the lacquer. It left a very odd looking stain pattern - kinda' psychedelic - but it should buff off easily. Thanks again for all you bring to UA-cam viewers. I left a donation to your tip jar..
So you didn’t ruin the horn. The damage did it .
Should have used a bigger hammer.
...
I have to ask... why do Americans pronounce "solder" (which clearly has an L) as "sodder"? In the UK, we solder.
Something about two countries separated by a common language, lol. By the way, I've always wondered why the Brits, (and other commonwealth nations,) pronounce lieutenant as "leftenant".
If you cross the English Channel, they pronounce "eaux" as "O".
why don’t Brits pronounce the L in “calm”? 🤷
Why don't yanks pronounce the second 'i' in aluminium? They say a-loom-i-num. Other English speaking countries seem to pronounce it a-lu-min-ee-um.
Wondering why the pronunciation of soldier is so different to solder in the US?
@@markcameron-smith there’s only one “i” to pronounce in aluminum [AmE] 🙃
See Wikipedia page “Phonological history of English consonants” for more.
.
Wes Lee can fix it. lol
Yes he can. I went to college with him.
Uneven valves are usually Chinese knock offs.
Scrap metal
Omg this poor trumpet. I could tell this man had no idea what he was doing from the start. And Still charged the customer. While I respect the fact u owned up to the mistake but destroy their trumpet replace it with another trumpet they didn’t buy or possibly want and then still charge the customer hell nah that shit should have been Free shame on you sir