Dr White Exposes Leighton Flowers Eisegesis in John
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- Опубліковано 9 бер 2024
- In This CCShort Dr James White attempts to show Leighton Flowers that everything needed to understand John 6:45 is in the verse itself and Leighton insists that whats in John 6:45 "Isnt enough..." to understand the Provisionist interpritation.
If the Provisionist God is not able to "teach" sinners and cause them to "learn" any different than a secular college Professor is able to with his students then the Provisionist God has no more ability [to actually SAVE sinners] than a gospel Preacher does on Sunday morning.
This is the "god" that Leighton Flowers is promoting in this debate.
Some seriously lacking logic here.
You need to understand God can put you in any situation he would ever want you in. A gospel preacher can save, but only because God puts him where he needs to be.
@@ManofSteel007 here is what God “puts”
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will *PUT* my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
@@aletheia8054 amen
It's like saying the calvinist Hod is not love for 2 reasons atleast; 1. Forcing people who don't want salvation to be saved.
2. Allowing people he can save to be lost.
Is this love?
What love is this?
@@originalkwao3365 agape love
I really dig the captions. Much easier to follow
Great video, those captions are super helpful to follow what’s going on.
The "they" is referring to the people of God, the true believers and true Israel. The physical nation is not the true Israel, which the apostle Paul made very clear when he wrote by inspiration of God, "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." (Romans 9:6)
Amen
Nice, thank you! Helps me understand better
This is a ridiculous argument - When it says, Every one "HEARING"... - It doesn't mean literally - It means everyone who 'Understands' Christ said they have ears to hear but they don't understand. And understanding, like faith, is given in portions by God/Christ - No doubt, based on the state of ones heart and what they can handle - Where much is given much is required. Christ told his disciples, I have many things to tell you but you cannot handle them right now. Further: Christ opened the "understanding" of a select few when he walked with them after the resurrection. Please stop nit picking and arguing over things that are not meant to be taken literally.
That’s right. First century Greeks use the word hear the same as we do today. We can mean hearing, as in hearing sound, or hearing as an understanding.
To the Leightonists out there, maybe this will help you out a bit...
How does the Father draw an individual to the Son (John 6:44)? Not with a vengeful or angry kind of force, but with an effectual force born of lovingkindness (Jeremiah 31:3, Psalm 25:6, Hosea 11:4), and John 6:45 tells us specifically what that is: “…Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father (all who are taught by God) comes to me…” That is, if you are willing and obedient (Cf. Isaiah 1:19), it is only because God has made you willing and obedient (John 6:29, Acts 13:48, Philippians 1:29, Hebrews 12:2, Philippians 1:6) - no one can come to Jesus unless it has been granted to him by the Father (John 6:65).
Who is it that both “hears and learns” from the Father (John 6:45)? John 8:47 tells us that “He who is of God hears the words of God…” That is, people are “of God” before they truly hear the words of God, because Jesus says that not being of God is why people don’t hear. It is His sheep who hear the voice of Yahweh (John 10:27) who then follow Him.
So who are these individuals? Are these merely good Jews, the Old Testament/pre-crucifixion, true followers of Yahweh, who are already in a relationship with the Father, that He then draws to the Son (John 6:44)? After all, Jesus does draw a distinction between the true followers and the pretenders in John 8:39-47 who only thought that their Father was God.
Well, it certainly could include them, but by no stretch is it only limited to them, since Jesus, in referencing the Gentiles, declares that He has other sheep that are not of this fold that He must bring into the fold, children of God that are scattered abroad, see John 10:14-16, 11:51-52; here He refers to all people groups (John 12:32). These are individuals who were not “true worshippers” of the Father prior to coming to Jesus. And we know that the gospel does not draw absolutely everyone without exception, because it is folly to the Gentiles, and a stumbling block to the Jews (1 Corinthians 1:18, 23), so it does not draw, but repel.
The point is that true worshippers of Yahweh must first be “of God,” or else they could not hear the voice of God nor have His word abiding in them in order to be true followers of Yahweh in the first place (John 5:37-40, 8:47) - being “of God” comes first, and being a true worshipper is what follows; “by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Corinthians 15:10, Cf. Romans 12:3, 6, 1 Corinthians 4:7, John 3:27, Hebrews 13:20-21, Job 23:14).
THIS is unconditional election.
Where is the word effectual found in the scriptures, when it comes to salvation?
@@josephthomasmusic
Where is the word "Trinity" found in the scriptures? According to Jesus in John 6, God works faith in men, ALL that the Father draws by teaching them, that He gives to the Son WILL come to Him. No exceptions are given.
@@lawrencestanley8989 Okay so that's an admittance that you have to interpret that the scripture says effectual just like you have to interpret that the scripture says Trinity.
Read further brother. You need to stop using separate individual verses to prove your interpretation. Just about every calvinist is guilty of this. Read the entire passages from each verse that you quoted and you'll see the bigger context.
The father already brings people to the Son because they already accepted him through the teaching of the prophets. If the work of Christ is what saves a person, how did some Jews get saved before Christ was born? By believing from the testimony and the preaching from the prophets. So when Jesus came, all those who believed the words of the prophets, were given to the Son because the Son is the one who saves. It's that simple. There's nothing in regards to effectual salvation even remotely hinted at in the scriptures. You will also not find a single verse in the scripture that says that God determines and causes everything. You won't find anything like that anywhere in the Biblical scriptures.
Also you're ignoring the part that Leighton specifically said. In order for you to come to the Son, you have to hear AND learn, not one or the other. Just because a person hears it doesn't mean that they learned and believed. Both conditions must be met in order to come to the Son. It does not say that one automatically comes to the other.
@@josephthomasmusic
You said: *"The father already brings people to the Son because they already accepted him through the teaching of the prophets."*
I addressed this in my post, and it is demonstrably untrue. If you're not going to read what I write, then you should say so at the outset.
You said: *"In order for you to come to the Son, you have to hear AND learn, not one or the other."*
"Hear and learn" means to be taught. In other words, the second part of the verse explains the quotation in the first part of the verse. Leighton, like yourself, are breaking this verse up as if it is speaking about two different groups. It isn't. I addressed this in my post as well.
You don't care about what I've written, you just want to make your own points.
@@lawrencestanley8989those who "hear and learn" are one group matching two conditions. Nothing makes that two groups.
"I made it up"
Eisegisis... you mean looking through scripture with a calvinist lense?
Speaking of "lenses" check this out:
ua-cam.com/video/cPbvXbPyacQ/v-deo.html
Did you even watch the video? Lol
@@greglorenzen5632 yes
ἔστι γεγραμμένον ἐν τοῖς προφήταις· καὶ ἔσονται πάντες διδακτοὶ Θεοῦ. πᾶς ὁ ἀκούων παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μαθὼν ἔρχεται πρός με.
Κατα Ιωαννην Ευαγγελιον 6.45
Above is the greek for John 6:45.
πᾶς ὁ ἀκούων παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μαθὼν ἔρχεται πρός με
This phrase transliterates to:
Everyone - having heard - from the Father - and having learned - comes to me.
It's not eisegesis if it is literally in the greek. The point of contention that Leighton is bringing up is whether 'learned', that is, 'mathon', μαθὼν, implies a belief.
You can disagree with that understanding of learn, but James is not sddressing the point of contention.
I am not saying Leighton is right. I am saying the two are talking past each other.
God bless.
Actually, in Greek, it says all the ones at whatever time they’re hearing and whatever time they’re learning are coming to me
@@aletheia8054 (: My point was about the order of the words, not the most correct and precise meaning of the participles.
Could we get some context on this? There are like 5,000 different flavors of Protestantism, with disagreements about regenerations vs justification vs sanctification and whether they happen at the same time or one after the other or one before the other, etc etc etc.... It would be helpful to provide a general summary of what the two opposing viewpoints are in this particular debate, if you get a chance. Thanks.
Also could someone please shed some light on or at least address the recent serious accusations against James White, namely that he recently burglarized and stole a portion of Santa's beard?
No need. Just don't be a Baptist like these two and everything will be easier. The only Protestants worth listening to are the original 3: Anglican, Reformed (Presbyterian or Dutch Reformed), and Lutheran.
To answer your question they are debating if Unconditional election is taught in John 6. However, predestination is such a fruitless thing to concern yourself with if you have everything else wrong. It's such a small part of what we should follow. Correct administration of the sacraments is much more important. I am so thankful for the people such as Dr. Jordan B Cooper, Dr. Sinclair Ferguson, Matthew Everhard, Dr. Rod Rosenbladt, and Bryan Wolfmueller. Even (Baptist) Dr. Gavin Ortlund. I have learned so much from these people. If you want to learn more about Protestantism, I'd recommend them. God bless.
@@ihiohoh2708 Do you have some specific work of theirs that you can recommend?
@@ihiohoh2708Sinclair would disagree with you about whether baptists are worth listening to :)
Take care brother
@@thetimeninja2178 Very few are like Gavin Ortlund. However, the vast majority, honestly and I’m not trying to be mean, have no clue about anything in historical Christianity. Which is to be expected since they’re Restorationists.
can you fix the audio?
What's happening with the audio?
The point Leighton is making is that White is ignoring that the people have heard ADN LEARNED from the Father. Just because you hear the alarm bell does not mean you respond to it or submit to it or are moved by it. I don't think this is all that unreasonable but White and the video poster I guess agree that it is? This application is consistent with other scriptures where the Lord rebukes Israel for not being ready for him, nor coming to him. I honestly do not see how that is unreasonable of Flowers. Not trying to be rude but i see a lot of confirmation bias here.
Unfortunately the debate crowds tend to hold so closely to one-up-ism that they blind themselves from being able to extend mercy. A debate is a battle between 2 presuppositions, but a conversation is an understanding of each one's presupposition. Being able to win is just more temptationally mouth-watering than being able to edify.
Except that's not what it says in the Greek... 'hearing and learned' is the same Greek verb for heard, above expressed, but two verbs in this instance. It is an effectual -Understood-
@@docbrown7513 Actually there are 2 verbs used in the passage (akousas & mathōn) James White is purposely ignoring that the Greek says:
"everyone having heard" *"pas ho akousas"*
from the Father *"para tou Patros"*
and learned *"kai mathōn"*
comes to me *"erchetai pros eme."*
To me its very suspicious on Whites part to ignore the scriptures. Especially since he is even teaches Greek. This should really call his honest supporters to question his integrity on this verse. It is embarrassing for him to do this. it is equally as sad that some people are so blinded by their devotion to White and their theological presuppositions that they will not even question such blatant oversight by White. We should not be eager to be established so much so that we forfeit the truth in the process.
It's amazing to me how James White can do this for Unconitional Election, but not for the *CLEAR* Proof texts for Unlimited Atonement.
"Listens" is a more common translation than "heard." But either way, Leighton is correct here. It's a pretty simple point that someone can be taught something yet still not hear or learn.
It’s not just “someone” teaching. It’s God Almighty.
And here’s how he teaches his people
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
@@aletheia8054 amen.
Thank God His law is on all of our hearts. I pray that we all listen to Him.
@@ManofSteel007 our?
John 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
God did not put it into everyone .
@@aletheia8054 humans
Leighton Flowers is false here lols
If it’s not evident that flowers is an utter liar, and a con man then nothing else will convince of that.
The elect will hear the truth, despite what either of these men say .
Hey can you give a breakdown in layman terms please of what is being debated in this particular cross examination. Im trying to understand what the point of contention is and why you consider him a conman/liar?
@@s1rJinx I think Mr. White did a good job of that. Just go listen.
@@jameshoyt3692 Flowers is a con man.
@@aletheia8054if you think that you should pray for discernment
He’s a con man only because God decreed him to be.