What are some albums you guys think would've sounded different if SMILE had been released? Patreon: www.patreon.com/user?u=40511801 Instagram: instagram.com/n8te4u/ Twitter: twitter.com/N8te4u Julius Caesar: music.apple.com/us/album/julius-caesar-single/1555327936
It’s interesting to think that Jimi Hendrix dismissed Heroes and Villains, one of the few surviving remnants off SMiLE that got a timely release during this revolutionary period, as psychedelic barbershop. I don’t think he particularly had a disdain for surf music, although the “surf music is over” adage in his lyrics keeps getting used, probably erroneously so, to suggest how much Hendrix had the urge to push that genre out. I don’t believe that he really took to Brian’s music because it definitely didn’t have the traditional, rock oriented heavy atmosphere that other bands like the Beatles were just knocking out of the park and revolutionizing in a way that Brian seemed to only really manage to dabble in, in terms of STRICT hard rock. There’s a reason why Hendrix would come to record a cover of Day Tripper and Sgt. Pepper, because they were rockers and I think that Hendrix appreciated that preservation, whereas The Beach Boys never really went hard into rock, even with their more straight up surf music back in the early to mid 60s. I’ve seen someone say before that the albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE, while inspiring and groundbreaking, would not have had an appeal on those who were headed for heavier and heavier stuff. Metal coming to the scene, general rejection of things light airy and innocent by the 70s... two elements that meant that Brian and the boys’s ideas would never get the appreciation they deserved. It’s a shame, but I think only people who possessed the ability to incorporate timid fear and self doubt into their music would have been able to see Pet Sounds and SMiLE for what they were. Without that ability, either albums could seem like excess sentimentality or just a depressing run of emotion that doesn’t go anywhere musically and does more to upset than to bring about any kind of “got me going” feeling that many of these bands were focused on producing.
I think Brian probably would have gone a somewhat similar route to what he wound up doing anyway, which is he would have pulled back from the production race and gone back to a more basic approach, like how he approached Wild Honey and like how music in general circa 1968 wound up anyway. My guess is that SMiLE probably would have taken a toll on him anyway in any sort of reality where it would have come out, simply due to the tediousness of recording and assembling an entire album in a modular fashion like that. I imagine that a back-to-basics approach would have led him to write an album pretty similar to Wild Honey, but after that point I think the history of the band’s albums probably would have been *drastically* different from the albums the band wound up putting out, assuming of course that SMiLE wound up being a big success for the band. But, if SMiLE’s reception were to have wound up being similar to the initial reception Pet Sounds received in the States, then I think Brian probably would have pulled back from his involvement with the band on a songwriting and production level in a very similar fashion to what wound up actually happening.
I think Friends has the vibe for a follow up to Smile. But I think the songs and album would have been longer. New Song (Check the Wake the World sessions) would have been on there. While Brian was inconsistent after Smile, I think we get some hints. Til I Die and My Solution. In the 70s, he was moving towards synthesizers. Funky Pretty is a precursor to Love You. I think if Brian hadn't been mentally damaged by drugs, the lyrics on Love You would have been better. On the other hand, Love You might not have been made at all. Which would be a down side. But I think a synth masterpiece might have been made. Not sure exactly what that would have sounded like. But Love You is a taste of what might have been. Lines and Stevie give another idea. Maybe a Rio Grande would have been made earlier. Or more tracks like that.
That's the ultimate failure of SMiLE, tbh. It took him 7 months to make Good Vibrations. And he was trying to do that 12 more times in a year. If he even had rudimentary digital technology, just the ability to edit in a non linear fashion, SMiLE comes out before Pepper and the Beatles are caught with their pants down
@@jonathanmanuel5461 Jacob collier is too lost in music theory and technicality that he’ll never come even remotely close to anything that Brian Wilson created. Brian Wilson’s compositions are so complex but so simple and consumable at the same time. Don’t get me wrong Jacob is incredibly talented and has a grasp of music theory that’s once in probably a million years and is impressive as fuck but there’s something in the simplicity and relatability that Jacob loses in the theory. Brian Wilson did more with a 5 part vocal harmony than Jacob does with 32 layers vocal tracks
I’ve always said that if Smile had been released when intended, The Beach Boys wouldn’t have been viewed as a nostalgic oldies act, but as a classic rock band.
Max, Smile being unreleased changed nothing. In fact, it was a forgotten unreleased gem for decades. The boys instead released Smiley Smile in its place and moved on. The myth of smile began growing in the late 90s and early 2000s. The reason the BB became a nostalgia act was because Brian has a meltdown and Mike took over the reigns and he doesn’t have an artistic bone in his body and just spent 3 decades writing car and surf songs. By the late 90s he was too old to write anything worthwhile and just spent two decades singing the old songs on tour. All the magic of the BB died with Brian’s Smile failure.
@@marioa.8131 I would actually argue that SMiLE actually being released would've kept Brian from having a complete mental breakdown. SMiLE would've changed everything for the Beach Boys. The fact that they moved on irl doesn't really affect the hypothetical scenario
Man, I just discovered the existence of SMiLE some weeks ago and it blew my mind. I have listened to many contemporary music, even experimental music, and SMiLE impressed me like no other album I've ever heard. And it impresses me the fact that you make this video this year. I think that this album, regardless of the 40 years of delay, will have at least a considerable influence to the music of the XXI century. I think it's time for the popular music to change and to stop sticking around paradigms that have lasted almost 60 years.
Brian Wilson said that The Beatles and The Beach Boys chased each other up a spire as Jordan Warner helpfully pointed out. They helped each other to improve. I'd agree with that.
The Beatles had a much easier freeway to be better... Brian & Paul were on even playing fields (even Brian may have been ahead by a smidge) But the Beatles had John & George... & GEORGE Martin that is. They definitely inspired one another, but the Beatles had it easier. PERIOD.
Yeah but that ended with pet sounds n good vibrations. They flipped the script. The Beatles were trying to be The Beach Boys at that time. The Beach Boys weren’t trying to be the Beatles they just weren’t. They didn’t try to write guitar rock. They were way past that n the Beatles were playing catch up.
I seriously doubt that that's true. Wilson may have fired Lennon and McCartney's competitive drive for two years or so, but Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Carl Perkins and Bob Dylan influenced The Beatles much more deeply and for much longer than any other entity, Presley included.
@@simonedwards9450 I wasn't disputing Martin's words, his importance to the Beatles or his respect for Wilson. What I dispute is the assertion that Wilson had a bigger impact on the Beatles than anyone. To put it mildly, that's highly doubtful.
@@Azabaxe80 the way the Beatles, especially McCartney, I agree with Martin. The others you mentioned definitely inspired the Beatles, especially in the early days, but the rivalry the Beatles and the beach boys shared has not been seen before or since. Wilson himself said the Beatles and the beach boys were chasing each other up a spiral
@@simonedwards9450 Something got cut off in your first sentence. I don't want to belabor the point, but The Beach Boys weren't the only entity that influenced the Beatles during that all important 65-67 period. I personally believe that the Byrds were more influential on the way that the Beatles sounded than any other contemporary rock band. And of course, Dylan was deeply influential on the development of Lennon's songwriting. Ironically enough, the most Wilson-like song the Beatles ever released was Lennon's "Because". ("Back in the USSR" is a spoof, so it doesn't count.) Wilson's influence on the Beatles isn't found in songwriting or sound, but rather in recording technique. But even then, the idea of using the studio as an instrument, something that may have been pioneered by Miles Davis and Gil Evans in the late 50s, was already found in Rubber Soul. The Beatles took it a step higher in April 1966, when "Tomorrow Never Knows" was recorded. The main influence here were avant garde composers, which McCartney was heavily into at the time mainly because of their use of tape loops. Pet Sounds, as you know, was released in May 1966. It's commonplace to attribute the inspiration for Sgt. Pepper to Brian Wilson, and that's fine by me. But many serious Beatle enthusiasts rate either Rubber Soul or Revolver higher than that record, and I agree with them. Rubber Soul preceded Pet Sounds, and Revolver was recorded concurrently. Sorry for the long rant.
I love both bands but Brian Wilson probably is my favorite ever musician, his music has an unbelievable scope. It reaches from very simple to very complex, very happy to very dark.
Cool, but I disagree. Pet Sounds and Smile are far more cohesive, emotionally, and artistically satisfying. But Revolver is my Beatles pick, and that’s close.
SMiLE is also my favorite all time album (even unfinished) for many of the same reasons that you mentioned. To me, without any formal musical education or knowledge beyond just liking what I like, nothing else sounds like it.
The downfall of The Beach Boys was fame, money, etc coming quickly to young guys who couldn’t handle it. Brian imploded, Dennis went off the rails completely and the rest is history.
What really hurt them was the trauma they suffered at the hands of their father..... Without getting the support they needed, it only makes sense that they would struggle and fame would be the catalyst.
I think the reason why the Beatles held up longer was because had more advantages. They had each other to rely on, John and Paul had each other as songwriting partners, they had a mastermind producer (George Martin), and a genius promoter (Brian Epstein). Brian, on the other hand, had no one. His father was abusive. His deadbeat cousin kept trying to sabotage his genius. His brothers tried to support him, but they couldn't really, because they had problems of their own too. Brian being the sole producer without a songwriting partner on his level led to him becoming a hyper-perfectionist (one of the reasons why he scrapped SMiLE). The public didn't like the experimental stuff he composed (even though the Beatles were fans, which you'd think would be enough for the public to like it too). Even the Wrecking Crew didn't really like him at first. I feel awful for Brian, the man had a gift like no other, but it was constantly trampled by others.
Exactly right. When you add to this Brian's own mental troubles, it's remarkable how much he achieved despite the hostile environment in which he functioned.
I remember I transcended when I heard Surf’s Up. What Brian did is something that is hard to explain, you ask yourself why can’t people do things in Style. Like really go beyond surface level, hard to describe, but Brian did it. This album has me remember of my childhood, you must show your kids this album, not cause you like it, cause it will leave a mark on their lives.
Another thing worth mentioning is that Brian composed and arranged Pet Sounds & SMiLE almost entirely by himself. Most of the arrangements on the Beatles’ artistic stuff were done by at least three people (Lennon, McCartney, and George Martin).
Brian didn't write any lyrics on both Pet sounds and Smile. The Beatles on the other hand did. I love Brian's melodies, but his own lyrics are generally lacking and can't hold a candle to Lennon/McCartney (although I love the "love you" album)
On Pet Sounds, the song "Hang Onto Your Ego" was changed to "I Know There's An Answer" at Mike's insistence. Mike's rationale is that taking LSD causes one to "lose their ego" and he didn't want any 'drug references' in the band's music. If SMILE had been released in 1967: Brian would not have dropped out of Monterrey Hendrix would have not made the derisive comment about never having to listen to surf music again The Beach Boys would have not spent years being considered a joke Songs from the classic album Sunflower would have been heard on the radio
Was psyched to find your video because I've had conversations about this very thing. Smile comes out in 67 and the whole world would have been calling him the modern Mozart.
@@BoneCK15 Dismissive to muted sadly. Like I mentioned in the video because it wasn't the typical psychedelic sound of sitars, echo etc. The 60s press didn't know what to do with it. Hell, Jimi Hendrix insulted the group over that single!
@@NAETEMUSIC well if Smile did come out I'm pretty sure it would have went the way of Pet Sounds and England was going to have to once again school America on its own music.
Except for Dennis, the other Beachboys and specifically Mike Love, along with LSD led to his mental breakdown. Brian is writing some of the greatest music in history and instead of love and encouragement he got derision. How could he not become depressed.
There is some truth to this, but it's narrow. It leaves out WAY too much of the story. First, Carl and Bruce Johnston were always extremely supportive of Brian. You nor anyone else can point to specific instances of resistance from either. But the much more important factor is that Mike Love DID NOT refuse Brian "love and encouragement" to any significant degree. Yes, by all means, Mike - and to some extent Al Jardine - DID express concern and reservations over the direction of post-Pet Sounds material, but if you will watch and listen to the studio footage from the Smile sessions and after, you will see Mike Love participating fully. Listen as you might, you will NOT find him being critical or resisting Brian's direction, and to this day NO ONE has substantiated that Mike ever uttered the words "don't f*ck with the formula, Brian," although it would have been totally appropriate. While all of us love Brian, and it's super easy to by sympathetic to him, it's not at all fair to paint Mike Love as the "bad guy." Brian was/is a musical genius, but that's only a part of being a successful band. Mike had the ugly responsibility of holding everything together while Brian succumbed to mental illness and retired to his bedroom. Why does NO ONE criticize Brian for all those years of lower-than-expected participation? Yet when Mike Love strives to keep the band relevant....he's an "asshole." I'm not big fan of Mike Love, but I recognize that without him the BBs would have imploded by 1972.
Mike wanted to keep pushing the same genre of lyrics that they were using in the early 60's. He resented being shut out when Brian turned to other lyricists to get away from lyrics that Brian felt didn't represent what he was feeling. This cut him out of future royalties. He was bitter towards Brian and there are interviews where he made snide comments that confirm that.
@@jakemitchell1671 I don't know why Mike gets hated so much. Yes, he's far from being everyone's favorite Beach Boy, and he does have a bit of an ego problem, but people act like he's the ONLY rock star with an ego. He also began contributing to the writing process a lot more in the late 60's/early 70's, and he wrote or co-wrote some of their best songs (All I Wanna Do, Good Vibrations, Don't Go Near The Water, etc). I know he's an asshole at times, and it seemed like he was trying to sabotage them... but, he did keep the band afloat when Brian wasn't there to lead them, and he's also changed his mind about Pet Sounds as well.
@@jakemitchell1671 Agreed, the video creator takes way too many liberties in his criticism of Mike Love. I think what gets overlooked is that it was a band, The Beach Boys (with several individuals with opinions and ideas), and not Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys. Hard to blame Mike for expressing his thoughts and opinions where he was a major contributor writing lyrics for the band's earlier phase (and where many of those songs became big hits for them). While Mike may not have been as progressive in his approach to pop music, one could understand Mike's if ain't broke, why fix it approach.
@@kft590 Brian was collaborating with lyricists other than Mike Love as early as 1963 - for example LA dee-jay, Roger Christian, and producer, Gary Usher.
Great video, hats off to you sir. I'm baffled as to why Smile as released in 2011 is still considered the red headed step child of BBs albums. It works as an album and is fully realised as confirmed by the 2004 'Brian Wilson Presents' release. It lacks nothing and is 2nd only to Pet Sounds as a Beach Boys albums. People consider Magical Mystery Tour a legit album, why not Smile. Smile is an epic concept album a 400 Yr journey from Plymouth Rock to the Summer of Love with harmony that stretches the boundaries of pop/rock that is highly progressive.
Going through my annual Smile craze and watched this video again and man, it makes me so goddamn sad every time I read the story of the Smile project. I easily search and search for a few hours reading hypotheticals and people's opinions on what would have happened if it released on schedule in 1967 and I just become lost. Nobody knows definitively what would have happened, but I pray there's a universe out there where the Beach Boys eclipse the Beatles because it is a literal travesty how a genius like Brian was beaten down and lost his mind with his work finally being recognized as the greatness that it is decades later! To think that what we've heard from the sessions is considered unfinished is astounding on its own and a finished product would've made for another musical nuke at that time. I wish this album came out on schedule, everything done right, best case scenario in 1967 and that they would've headlined the Monterey Pop Festival with some songs from Smile and Pet Sounds. Call me dramatic, I don't care, but it's actually depressing that the Beatles got the glory of the world. We'll never know what that alternate world is like... apologies for the long comment, this is actually pretty cathartic for me and I wanted to get all that out of my system, but unreleased album or released sessions, I will take Smile to my grave.
Intrigued with Smile I began compiling my own bootleg versions in the late 1970s. My final version was created in 2001 prior to the release of the remake. Reimagined as a double album it ran 74 minutes. After the release of the Smile sessions I played producer again and created a 77 minute version.
I compiled different versions of Smile from 1989 through about 2002. Then in 2004 I assembled a version that closely matched BWPS… a kind of precursor of Smile Sessions Disc 1.
What a great video! My favourite video on UA-cam man. I am not a music expert, but as soon as I learned the unlucky story of Brian Wilson I started imagining what nowadays music would be like if smile was released in 1967. Think at how much good music we lost after Brian mental breakdown. Today we would idolize The Beach Boys rather than The Beatles (which are still a great band). I wish I could travel back in time in order to help and support him. He was able to conceive God Only Knows, Good Vibrations, Heroes and Villains and Surf's Up in less than 2 years and in his prime he could stand up to the pair Lennon&McCartney. Again, Thank you for this Video.
Wow man thank YOU, favorite video on UA-cam? That compliment touches my heart! And yes I agree with essentially everything you said here. Well put my friend. Thank you so much for tuning in and again I am glad you enjoyed!
Mike Love should have been Paul to Brian Wilson's John (or vice versa). But there's no way Mike would've taken the advice that Bob Dylan gave Paul and John when they were still just writing pop hits. Mike needed something more than just a hit of pot. This all made me think that the main advantage that the Beatles had is that they were able to get out of England to Germany in their early years, away from everybody. Imagine if The Beach Boys left California in 1960, away from the comfort of the beach, the brutality of Brian's dad, and the repressiveness of the conservative mindset. Following their culture shock, maybe Mike and gang would've been more wiling to join Brian in experimenting more with music. The way the Beatles were game when Bob Dylan suggested it. I too have always wondered what it would've been like if Brian's brothers and cousin joined him on a journey to greatness the way George and Ringo followed Paul and John. What music would be like today. I also wondered what it would've been like if Buddy Holly never died, if Chuck Berry didn't have to battle racism, and so on.
Such good points my friend. No doubt being under Murray Wilson's thumb for as long as they were, as well as being tied to Southern California their entire careers, never sojourning to England or the like to record at Abbey Road or something (Imagine the beach boys recording at Abbey Road!) definitely hindered the sense of confidence and purpose they all had, but especially Brian. Thank you fo watching my friend and for the insight!
It's very painful to hear about SMiLE. I'm a song writer and musician who has written and recorded many songs and albums very few people will ever hear. Cannot imagine someone on Brian's level feeling the same way. That's enough to put you in the mental ward, or even death.
I loved this video.It's important to note that Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks reunited in 2004 to record. a version of "Smile" as a Brian Wilson solo project, and seven years later when The Beach Boys' surviving recordings of "Smile" were released they followed the song sequence of the 2004 solo version. I bought the boxed set version of "Smile" with a second disc of outtakes and made a mix CD of "Smile" following the sequence of the original 1966 album cover, which comes off as radically different from the 2004 sequence. Also it's I'm,portant to remember that the Beatles released their own ground-breaking album, "Revolver," between "Rubber Soul" and "Sgt. Pepper" and Brian Wilson began "Smile" as an answer to "Revolver" the way he had conceived of "Pet Sounds" as an answer to "Rubber Soul." Also the Beatles had three people - John Lennon and Paul McCartney as principal songwriters and George Martin as producer - to do the work for which the Beach Boys were relying on Brian Wilson alone. And John and Paul didn't have to deal with George and Ringo denouncing their modern songs as garbage and saying the Beatles should stick to songs about people holding hands.
Double dipping on comments. Would love to see a video on Van Dyke Parks. He certainly is an interesting guy. He killed it on Silverchair's Diorama. Really talented man.
I’ve thought the same thing for a long time, how a completed Smile album released in the summer of 1967 would have changed everything for Brian and The Beach Boys. But sure how it would changed or affected the direction of music at the time. Great video, and thanks for all your hard work in producing it.
Great video, it articulates a lot of my own thoughts on this subject matter far better than I usually manage to do when asked about my love of The Beach Boys and the importance of SMiLE. Very well done.
This is a great video. I will make sure to check out your other videos. I think your way with words was very calming but still intruiging and I could listen to you talk about albums for a few more hours I think. Im so glad this video exists. Not enough people talk about Smile, imo. And especially not about the whole story behind it. To be honest though i'm also a bit surprised this video exists, because im writing a script for a Smile themed video right now and the last time i checked (when i had the idea for the video) i couldnt find anybody talking about it, except for a few old documentaries. Im happy about more smile discourse so this is great. I plan on going in more detail about the fan-versions and the treasure hunt that went on until 2011 in my video, so i dont think ill scrap it. Thinking about what music would sound like if Smile released back then is such a hard question. Because the impact could be immeasureble. Like Dark Souls is definetely a great game, but did anyone think it would have this giant cult following and define a whole new "genre" of games? no, of course not. So maybe Smile would have gone on to do exactly that. Bringing elements of it into the public conscience and future artists building upon that. Or maybe it would just be a fondly remembered psychedelic pop album. Who knows As I said, great video. maybe turn the *ding* sfx volume down a bit next time, but apart from that I enjoyed this video sooo much and hope you keep creating cool stuff
I think it's really great that you made a section dedicated to the importance of mental health in media culture. Brian was never really supported during the times of his downward spiral, and he really needed it then. He was neglected by almost everyone. In the end, he couldn't handle the weight of his inner turmoil, personal pains, and pressure from everybody. He had to shelve SMiLE. How truly sad it is to think about that. What if 23 year old Brian was in our current times, trying to make a "SMiLE" of some sorts? Surely, the results would be a lot more different.
I have never connected Brian's style on SMILE as Wagner. I really appreciate your input and in-depth discussion of this great album. I had an old bootleg of the album in the late 70s early 80s and was a fan long before many of my friends. Thanks for taking the time. Take care
Great video! You really did a deep, detailed dive into what we super-fans of both bands have always speculated if Smile had been released in '67. It is also criminal that the next 10 years of Beach Boys studio albums were so underappreciated at the time they were released; there are some gems in there that have only gained appreciation among the more hip and enlightened among us, ha ha... I also think the 2011 Smile Sessions release was also very
20:55 Another example of that technique is The Wall by Pink Floyd. The melody/riff of Another Brink in the Wall is repeated several times throughout the album. And played by different instruments in different tempos.
@@firestriker3580 what was? And it was, Wilson agrees, it was the first album to be “self contained” and viewed the album itself as a form of comprehensive statement.
I would argue that during the 10 year period covering 1963 to 1973, The Beach Boys covered more musical ground than most other bands and musical artists do during their entire careers, including those of most of their contemporaries. This is particularly true during the period from Pet Sounds (1966) to Holland (1973). It was like listening to a completely different band each album. People brag about this aspect of the Beatles discography, but it’s equally if not more true of The Beach Boys discography too. When you listen to the albums over that 10 year period, you realize that not only did they evolve and progress an insane amount over the first 5 years of that period, which is when Brian’s compositional and arranging skills grew by an insane amount (from Surfin’ and 409 to Good Vibrations and Surf’s Up (the song, not the album)), but that the amount of musical styles they covered during that 10 year period is nuts - baroque pop (Pet Sounds), folk music (several different songs spread throughout this period), psychedelic Americana (SMiLE) and psychedelic pop/rock (Smiley Smile) acid rock (e.g. Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow), rhythm and blues (Wild Honey), blues rock (Carl and The Passions), proto-prog pop and prog rock (Holland and SMiLE), country-flavored music (parts of Holland), hard rock (various songs throughout this period), meditational-style/eastern flavored music (Friends), not to mention of course the jazz harmonies and chords they infused into a good chunk of their music and their early surf rock material.
"This is particularly true during the period from Pet Sounds (1966) to Holland (1973). It was like listening to a completely different band each album. People brag about this aspect of the Beatles discography, but it’s equally if not more true of The Beach Boys discography too." "The Beach Boys" didn't break any norms until they saw "The Beatles" doing it. Brian Wilson was INTIMIDATED into trying to go beyond the formulaic.
@@jnagarya519 pretty sure no one is disputing that fact, nor did I or N8 say otherwise, so not sure why you’re bringing it up as if I or anyone here was or is disputing it. In the end though it doesn’t make a difference; the music itself is what matters, not any of the narratives or trendsetting stuff surrounding it, so just enjoy it. 😊
For the sake of argument (I do love both The Beach Boys and The Beatles and Stones/Kinks/Who) - We all here are fans of both rock n roll (the early years) and rock music (from about 1967). The Beatles progressed to I Am The Walrus to While My Guitar Gently Weeps to Helter Skelter, Revolution, Yer Blues, Come Together and I Want You and of course the Abbey Road Medley. The Stones - JJ Flash, Street Fighting Man, Stray Cat Blues, Gimme Shelter, HTonk Women, Can't You Hear Me Knocking etc. So when the public had clearly shifted its' taste to music that was harder and with more edge - let's just call that rock music - what songs do you say really qualify to be categorized in that particular genre? The public wanted songs that perhaps The Beach Boys couldn't or wouldn't provide. Led Zeppelin released 2 massively popular albums in 1969 dictating the direction popular music was going - with help from Jimi Hendrix 2-3 years earlier. Where were The Beach Boys during this clear transformation? This is why I think The Beach Boys fell off the public radar and only recovered periodically as a welcomed old times nostalgia act. Please once again I ask you - list the songs that you think qualify as legitimate harder rocking songs that I claim is what the listening public wanted around 1967/8 and certainly beyond.
Hey, loved this video and very well made. Really appreciated your connection of Wilson's canonizing of melody to Wagner's use leitmotif. I think your defining of this technique really connected some dots for me in terms of what I love about SMiLE so much. That said, I'll be watching your video on Wagner after I'm done writing this comment xD I wanted to say, a modern album that invokes some of this same leitmotif magic for me is toby fox's Undertale soundtrack; It's on a very different bend than the traditional pop canon Wilson was working in, however I believe the works share similarity in a natural genius/creativity of songwriting. P.S. You are a talented writer, keep up the great work!!
Ive been searching for a video about SMiLE for so long and I’m glad to have found this. Amazing video, its really entertaining to watch a video about one of the if not the greatest album ever created!
A wonderful and loving tribute, thank you! It's great to hear that someone who'd never heard SMiLE until its recent release can be so inspired to do this thorough and deep dive into its majestic beauty and genius. Other than the early singles that everyone knows, my first self-initiated foray into the BBs was stumbling upon Smiley Smile a couple decades ago and it flipped my world upside down. SMiLE then was nearly inaccessible and mythic, only available as random bootlegs and I was lucky to've stumbled upon a 3 lp one with tons of somewhat finished tracks and little clips from the sessions. I'd drive friends nuts with wanting to listen to nothing but this BBs era endlessly, obsessively wondering the same as you the how, why and what-ifs. Don't forget, before they went total kitsch, they still made some solid post-SMiLE albums, Friends being, for me another real peak and at this point a real contender for my true favorite by them. Thankfully I don't have to decide! Cheers!
Your work is exceptional ! New generations (including mine) are becoming less and less aware of the 60s music, Beatles of course, not even to mention the Beach Boys… even « old timers » are looking down on them, preferring Beatles or Stones, because BB is too « naive and being exaggerating positive » I heard it so many times it hurts. Brian was most of the time alone, he didn’t have a George Martin, a Brian Hepstein or a John Lennon to back, advise and support him, not to mention the commercial success that was not there with Pet Sounds, and the failed Smile project besides they are absolute masterpiece. The beach boys and Brian deserve so much more, I sincerely hope one day the world and younger generations will acknowledge
Great video! It earned your channel another subscriber 😎👍🏻👍🏻 I love the mention of Grizzly Bear and their album Veckatimest, it definitely pulls from the Smile concepts and it’s one of the many reasons it’s one of my favorite albums of all time. Dr. Dog also is a band who pulls from the Smile playbook when it comes to the Americana influence and harmony arrangements. When I first discovered Smile it knocked The Beatles out for me, and it’s the reason I strive to make the music I make with my band Superloser. I couldn’t imagine what it would be like if it was released as intended in 1967, especially with the sad case of Brian’s mental health. I personally think he would’ve ended up like Morrison or Hendrix sadly. But anywho, great video, look forward to more! 🙏🏻😎
Wow thank you so much for the kind words! And I am glad you appreciated that Grizzly Bear reference as to me the first time I heard them (years ago) I was like "oh yeah, this has Brian written all over it) I'll have to check out Dr. Dog! not familiar with them but from the way you described it sounds like my thing. Will check out your band my friend and thank you for kind words!
Dude I just wanna say your channel is fantastic. Always looking forward to new videos from you. If you keep it up I can see this channel getting big and leaving a great legacy of music appreciation and information on UA-cam :)
I know from my own experience it can be discouraging to put effort into videos that don’t get many views but your work is definitely not going unnoticed! :)
Here are some notes I made during this video, things to consider: 1) There wasn't a full year between Good Vibrations and Strawberry Fields Forever. Four months separate their releases in Oct 66/Feb 67. 2) Everyone talks about the lineage and inspirations between Rubber Soul to Pet Sounds to Sgt. Pepper. No one mentions or talks about Revolver, which was released prior to Good Vibrations, and how it possibly influenced this "battle" between the two bands. 3) I don't know how much promotion would've been done for Smile, considering Pet Sounds scared Capitol so bad that they released a Greatest Hits album. 4) Mike Love is a turd, but he did write the lyrics for Good Vibrations and several other Beach Boys songs. Brian is not known for being a lyricist. 5) We never actually got Smile as it was intended. What was released in 2011 is what was cobbled together as the best known and intended running order, of which Brian wasn't even 100% sure how exactly the songs were supposed to go together. Sadly, there are several fan mixes and boots that sound better with missing backing tracks on various songs filled in. 6) I'm not even certain that all of the original tapes exist for the Smile sessions, and some of the ones that do have noticeable degradation on them, take Barnyard for example. Compared to Pet Sounds (especially the stereo version) some of the Smile tapes sound like they were either recorded on second generation tapes/reused or he masters weren't taken care of. I like what we ended up with, but the production is nowhere near the same.
Revolver as an idea caused pet sounds. Sonically Pet sounds caused Sgt Peppers. Also Brian being in the US is the only reason cause the UK version is not the same
You make some good points, but Revolver was only released a month before Good Vibrations, by which point the recording sessions had finished. Also, Mike Love is not a turd
I am Bipolar. This involves having multiple trails of thought simultaneously, often with no clarity. I feel such a connection with Smile in the sense that I can hear similar thought patterns but brought into great focus. This album has flipped my life around, and for that I will put it out there that it is the greatest recording of all time. Brian Wilson ventured where other composers would fear to tread to bring us this absolute masterpiece.
Pet Sounds and Smile were great, but much of what made the Beach Boys really significant to the great canon was what they did from 1967-1973 when they became more of a band, and less just Brian's group. But even then Brian had a lot of control on Friends and Love You, to interesting results. Honestly, I'd rather listen to anything from that era over Pet Sounds/Smile stuff most days.
More accurately- 64-67;70-7.... specifically All Summer Long, Today, Summer Days, Pet Sounds, Smiley Smile, Wild Honey was their most memorable consistent era, no real debate; along w/ 2/3 of Sunflower, along w/ a bulk of Surfs up , Holland & Love You thoroughly sums up their quality output as a whole... 1977 was (indirectly) a passing of the torch & ushered in the Renaissance that would permanently validate rockNroll by quality over quantity when in the 60s it was both- case in point the Ramones rocket to russia,, easily the greatest most jam packed album since Wild Honey a decade prior. From that point forward & throughout the next 4+ decades quality rockNroll is something ya gotta search for & lies in underrated icons like the Queers, Barracudas, Sonic surf city, Travoltas etc.
glad somebody put the reasons why I love Cabinessence into words, this entire video is fantastic, thank you, now my family and friends will be able to understand my obsession with Smile and Brian Wilson
My thoughts, the Beach Boys had a distinctive suffer sound and that is what made them. The Beatles had a more open all types of sound/music so they weren't stereotyped into their music. I think the Beach Boys were also held back with Brian Wilson being the only one doing everything, where the Beatles had multiply input for music, sounds, ideas. Even the names and promotion of the albums had an effect. Pet Sounds did not even sound like something of interest to me when it came out. The Beatles also had a great idea of using a different name (Sergeant Peppers) when they came out with the new sound for the album. The music on Smile just does not fit the image or sound of the Beach Boys.
This video is fantastic! I'm a fan of both bands, and always thought both of their influence was undeniable. That said, I've always been partial to The Beatles (and THAT said, as much as I truly love the Beatles, the "greatest band that ever lived" superlative gets a bit tired for me). Your analysis here has really opened my ears a bit more when it comes to The Beach Boys and I feel like I need to go back and listen to it all again. Thank you!
@@jnagarya519 Well, I just don't generally subscribe to the idea that there is actually a "greatest band that ever lived", personally. Just because that's something that's pretty hard to quantify. I think that every band that's ever been has/had something to offer. Music is so vast that it's hard to compare the Beatles to say, Miles Davis. Both are considered greats for different reasons, but musically they just aren't really similar enough to compare. It might be more accurate to say something like "the Beatles are my favorite band of all time" or "the Beatles are one of the most influential bands of all time". That's just my opinion though (:
People always reference how the beach boys turned into a nostalgia band. Forgetting the Beatles broke up in 1970. So essentially they both hit and ended their creative peaks at around the same time. Not only that. In the 70s the BB released surf's up. So tough. Holland and Love you. And while not masterpieces like pet sounds, these albums have some absolute masterpieces on them.
Nice video about the groundbreaking sounds created on the Smile album! If I'd have a chance to talk with Brian Wilson, I'd ask him if he also considered using instruments such as the Armonica and Clavichord on Smile, and also, like his contemporaries, if he ever thought of placing a Sitar in a song. I'd also like to have the same type of conversation with Paul McCartney. With Paul, rather then asking about the use of Sitar on their songs, I'd ask him about if the Beatles ever thought of using the Theremin, especially considering Paul's admiration of Brian's songwriting.
Nice blend of factual and 'what if' storytelling here. I'm ashamed to say at 42 I only recently understood the songwriting genius of Brian Wilson and learned about his struggles and the whole story of the band after their early success. It is certainly strange to imagine the alternative legacy of the 'beach boys' name had Smile been released. I never realised the potential that was never fully tapped into and it's a travesty that BW, the unstoppable creative force that had turned everything to gold, was not trusted by the band or the record label. How frustrating must that have been to know you're about the change the world and yet not be allowed to do it because nobody is on your side and you're the only one who can see the future. How could that not take all the joy from your soul and send you on a spiralling downward trajectory. But having said that, no matter what might have been, BW is still revered worldwide by fans and musicians and he seems to have a very healthy attitude towards the past, i.e. no grudges or regrets. So he did change the world regardless.
It all boils down to these two questions: *_What if SMiLE was finished in 1967 (with Wilson's vision intact), and what if it was released before Sgt. Pepper's?_*
And then what would've been Brian's answer to Sgt. Pepper after Smile was released? Would he have thrown in the towel? He was emotionally spent during the Smile sessions which he gave up in the end.
Hey, great essay! I'm a classical composer too, so i was gratefull to hear all the references you put there. The only thing that bother me was the "Mike love" chapter. I'm a beach boys fan since 98, and ar first i believe that tesis that Mike was the big and only factor that sabotage those great Brian's records, but now i have another perspective, knowing all their discography in a deep way. Reality it's never THAT simple, and i think the healthy thing to do it's to step away from the internal polemics and just listen AND enyoy their perfect records. Just saying, cheers!
Agree with almost all this, but it doesn’t stop with SMiLE, would’ve loved to hear you go into the albums that followed. Friends, and Wild Honey are great, Sunflower and Surfs Up are sublime and arguably their best work, Holland and Love You right up there as well.
Oh I definitely have on the agenda to do a deep dive into the 70s beach boys albums that ended up becoming the template for so many genres in of indie rock/pop in the 2000s early 10s. Thinking of Sunflower and Love You in particular.
I know it's been a while, but if you want a great example of an album with recurring elements and leitmotifs, I would highly recommend checking out Captain Beyond's self-titled debut album. The level of consistency displayed on it is something that I've only seen matched a handful of times (one of those being The Beach Boys).
I don't know a lot about music, but I know what kind of music I like, and what music I love. I like the Beatles, a lot, and I realize they are one of THE bands of the 20th century. I love the Beach Boys, before and after Pet Sounds. I think that any (online) definition of "sublime" should include an audio clip of "God Only Knows" or "Surf's Up." It's clear you know a great deal about music, and music theory. This is such a thorough exploration of "Smile" and its influences and motifs, and I learned so much in what, a half hour? Well done.
they were both great but when it comes to decide their best albums with the Beatles you're spoilt for choice, while with the Beach Boys almost everyone will choose "Pet Sounds"
@@stefano.b65stef77Yes on Sunflower many amazing things happened, not least of which was inventing chillwave 40 years before it became popular on "All I Wanna Do"
That’s because after rubber souls every album with the Beatles is a contender for their greatest album while after pet sounds, The Beach Boys only have an album that never came out and a bunch of would have could haves. I think ultimately The Beach Boys and mainly Brian Wilson were the better band but the Beatles actually realized what Brian was aiming for.
I don’t think Mike is as much a ‘villain’ as he’s depicted here. Smile wouldn’t have been the same without his amazing vocals and lyrical contributions to GV.
@@NateRuvin414 True, he might not have been as bad as all that back in the day. But STILL to this day he denies mental illness is a thing and doesn't think he did anything wrong to Brian Wilson.
I agree and I have often pondered the same question.I think the release of Smile in 67 would have profoundly changed the course of modern music as we know it.Yet,we are where we are and perhaps it has only delayed musical evolvement.
Your work is amazing! My favorite band has always been The Beatles but I'm getting to know the Beach Boys' genius work. It seems that nobody really likes Mike Love and blames him for the band's bankruptcy. I think the Beach Boys is amazing because it's one of the bands where the members have less self-centered people, except Mike Love. However Brian Wilson despite being a sensitive human being, he is an adult. I believe the problem was really drugs. I think it's unfair to blame Mike Love that he doesn't seem to have any talent or intelligence. Furthermore, excellent video and congratulations on his work.
First of all thank you for the sympathetic approach towards Brian's difficult period. I also want to agree with your views on Mike Love. 'nuff said 'bout him. Ever since the 60s to the present day I have never been able to decide my #1 personal favourite single release but usually Heroes & Villains comes out top & I agree that the influence Van Dyke Parks brought to the project was unsurpassed, except for Robert Hunter's contribution to Grateful Dead's catalogue. It is a great pity Smile was not released at this tumultuous time in popular music however as much as Brian's techniques were wonderfully different from others at the time, I do not believe future music would have changed much from what we have heard since then. Would Jimi Hendrix Experience's "Electric Ladyland" or countless others have sounded any different or Fleetwood Mac or Talking Heads ? I doubt it. PS The first albums I bought were Surfing USA & Summer Days & Summer Nights
Thank you for making such an amazing content! I'm a beginner songwriter who hugely inspired by 50s and 60s songs especially with the Wall of Sound when I was listening to some stuff by my fav Japanese singer / songwriter / producer (Eiichi Ohtaki) who also inspired by the Wall of Sound arrangement I hope there's more musician who can still preserve this kind of sound into the nowadays music
@@NAETEMUSIC again, don't ever stop doing this kind of great thing. It's not just me, but I do think that the others are also got inspired by watching your content which is awesome!
Just listened to your analysis of Smile. I’m a listener rather than a musician, so my approach to understanding Smile is different. That said, I agree with you in the importance of Smile and a regret it was not release when intended. I was 12 when Good Vibrations was released in 1966. It rapidly became my favourite song of the era and I have when asked consider it the greatest song of that era. My first introduction to Smile was Brian Wilson’s reimagining in 2004. TBH I prefer this release than the later 2011 released under The Beach Boys umbrella. Maybe difference in early 21st century production techniques?
I read an interview with brian Wilson, shortly after his re-recording of Smile. The interviewer asked him if things would be different if Smile had been finished and released in its time. Brian's eyes welled with tears and he finally replied "...no"" before excusing himself and disappearing for several minutes.
Have you seen how many studio musicians it took to execute their songs and sound? Pet Sounds had like 40 musicians credited. The Beatles were always essentially doing everything themselves with the occasional guest player. However, they had a great producer, no doubt.
Respectfully that argument doesn't really land with me. Was Beethoven less of a genius because he had " to have an orchestra play the parts he couldn't" See how that argument doesn't really have anything to do with the quality of the music?
@@NAETEMUSIC Not really. Not the same thing at all. He was a single guy, that of course couldn’t play all the orchestra parts even if he wanted to due to no recording technology, let alone track recording. But that’s not the question here. I’m not just talking about the strings, etc. The Beach Boys had other musicians playing basic instruments like drums, bass, guitar, etc. If they could have done it themselves they would have. They had just as much studio tech at their fingertips as the Beatles, yet those guys created and executed virtually everything they wanted to do. Not to mention the prolific amount of memorable songs they wrote in a 7 yr major recording career.
@@GoldTop57 but why does Brian + beach boys being able to do or not do something have anything to do with the quality of the music? Would your opinion on smile change if you knew it was made by just those 5 guys and it still sounded exactly the same? See what I mean?
@@NAETEMUSIC It doesn’t change the quality of the music, but it sure does make a difference to me if they had to bring in a ton of other top musicians to play drums, bass, guitar…core instruments in order to get the sound they want. That gorgeous bass line on God only knows? That’s Carol Kaye, not The Beach Boys.
Brian Wilson said that he ( like Elton John and so many other music artists have rightly said) thinks that Lennon and McCartney were the two greatest song writers of the 20th century. Brian Wilson has also always said that when he first heard The Beatles brilliant album Rubber Soul when it first came out in December of 1965, he was blown away by it. And he said all of the songs flowed together and it was pop music but folk rock at the same time and he couldn't believe that they did this so great and this is what inspired him to make the Pet Sounds album. He also said in online interviews that he thinks that Rubber Soul is the best album ever and better than Pet Sounds.
A great video. just a few things in the beginning. Beach boys only released one album, before Beatles. In my opinion I will probably consider the 2 bands' early records equally as much a pre-curser to punk in different ways. Also a final nitpick, there were a few other members of Beatles before Ringo and the albums they made.
So true. There’s this blind devotion to the Beatles. It’s almost like denial. The Beach Boys changed everything and the Beatles wanted a piece of the action. Brian Wilson was on another level period. Light years ahead of the Beatles
Sounds like what you’re talking about is a full rich Mono versus the Beatles Stereo. Since Mr Wilson is deaf in one ear, could that be why Pet Sounds and Smiley Smile were in Mono? I think The Beach Boys could have been embraced much more by the counter culture if the recordings were available at the time in stereo. My two cents.
I love both bands, but that is not exactly true about the early Beatles only using basic triadic harmonies...they were more two part minded, but had some clever three parts too...but they leaned on the dominant 7th in their early 2 and 3 parts; blurring the lines of major and minor (like the blues does) plus they had brilliant creativity in 2 parts like 'If I Fell', or the oblique motion (high pedal tone) in the verse melody of 'Please Please Me', plus they wouldn't hesitate to harmonize some early lines in 4ths and 5ths as needed, (usually in passing contrary motion lines)...having said that, you make a great case for Smile and I really enjoyed the video
I wish I lived in an alternate universe where Brian finished and released SMiLE when he originally intended to. I could not imagine what the original 67 finished version of SMiLE would sound like. But I guess we might never know :(
What are some albums you guys think would've sounded different if SMILE had been released?
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It’s interesting to think that Jimi Hendrix dismissed Heroes and Villains, one of the few surviving remnants off SMiLE that got a timely release during this revolutionary period, as psychedelic barbershop.
I don’t think he particularly had a disdain for surf music, although the “surf music is over” adage in his lyrics keeps getting used, probably erroneously so, to suggest how much Hendrix had the urge to push that genre out.
I don’t believe that he really took to Brian’s music because it definitely didn’t have the traditional, rock oriented heavy atmosphere that other bands like the Beatles were just knocking out of the park and revolutionizing in a way that Brian seemed to only really manage to dabble in, in terms of STRICT hard rock.
There’s a reason why Hendrix would come to record a cover of Day Tripper and Sgt. Pepper, because they were rockers and I think that Hendrix appreciated that preservation, whereas The Beach Boys never really went hard into rock, even with their more straight up surf music back in the early to mid 60s.
I’ve seen someone say before that the albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE, while inspiring and groundbreaking, would not have had an appeal on those who were headed for heavier and heavier stuff. Metal coming to the scene, general rejection of things light airy and innocent by the 70s... two elements that meant that Brian and the boys’s ideas would never get the appreciation they deserved.
It’s a shame, but I think only people who possessed the ability to incorporate timid fear and self doubt into their music would have been able to see Pet Sounds and SMiLE for what they were. Without that ability, either albums could seem like excess sentimentality or just a depressing run of emotion that doesn’t go anywhere musically and does more to upset than to bring about any kind of “got me going” feeling that many of these bands were focused on producing.
I would like to think all those back to basics albums in 1968 would be a little different. The White album, the Byrds, beggars banquet ect
I think Brian probably would have gone a somewhat similar route to what he wound up doing anyway, which is he would have pulled back from the production race and gone back to a more basic approach, like how he approached Wild Honey and like how music in general circa 1968 wound up anyway. My guess is that SMiLE probably would have taken a toll on him anyway in any sort of reality where it would have come out, simply due to the tediousness of recording and assembling an entire album in a modular fashion like that. I imagine that a back-to-basics approach would have led him to write an album pretty similar to Wild Honey, but after that point I think the history of the band’s albums probably would have been *drastically* different from the albums the band wound up putting out, assuming of course that SMiLE wound up being a big success for the band. But, if SMiLE’s reception were to have wound up being similar to the initial reception Pet Sounds received in the States, then I think Brian probably would have pulled back from his involvement with the band on a songwriting and production level in a very similar fashion to what wound up actually happening.
I think Friends has the vibe for a follow up to Smile. But I think the songs and album would have been longer. New Song (Check the Wake the World sessions) would have been on there. While Brian was inconsistent after Smile, I think we get some hints. Til I Die and My Solution. In the 70s, he was moving towards synthesizers. Funky Pretty is a precursor to Love You. I think if Brian hadn't been mentally damaged by drugs, the lyrics on Love You would have been better. On the other hand, Love You might not have been made at all. Which would be a down side. But I think a synth masterpiece might have been made. Not sure exactly what that would have sounded like. But Love You is a taste of what might have been. Lines and Stevie give another idea. Maybe a Rio Grande would have been made earlier. Or more tracks like that.
The dynamic on all of the following BBs albums for starters: many are propped up by cherry picking Smile songs
The Beatles inspired me as a teenager to question what a song could sound like, the Beach Boys inspired me to question what a song could BE.
Imagine what 24yo Brian could've done with modern recording tech
It boggles the mind, honestly
Better than Jacob Collier I think
@@jonathanmanuel5461 Don't want to throw shade, but I tend to agree.
That's the ultimate failure of SMiLE, tbh. It took him 7 months to make Good Vibrations. And he was trying to do that 12 more times in a year. If he even had rudimentary digital technology, just the ability to edit in a non linear fashion, SMiLE comes out before Pepper and the Beatles are caught with their pants down
@@jonathanmanuel5461 Jacob collier is too lost in music theory and technicality that he’ll never come even remotely close to anything that Brian Wilson created.
Brian Wilson’s compositions are so complex but so simple and consumable at the same time.
Don’t get me wrong Jacob is incredibly talented and has a grasp of music theory that’s once in probably a million years and is impressive as fuck but there’s something in the simplicity and relatability that Jacob loses in the theory.
Brian Wilson did more with a 5 part vocal harmony than Jacob does with 32 layers vocal tracks
I’ve always said that if Smile had been released when intended, The Beach Boys wouldn’t have been viewed as a nostalgic oldies act, but as a classic rock band.
Max, Smile being unreleased changed nothing. In fact, it was a forgotten unreleased gem for decades. The boys instead released Smiley Smile in its place and moved on. The myth of smile began growing in the late 90s and early 2000s.
The reason the BB became a nostalgia act was because Brian has a meltdown and Mike took over the reigns and he doesn’t have an artistic bone in his body and just spent 3 decades writing car and surf songs. By the late 90s he was too old to write anything worthwhile and just spent two decades singing the old songs on tour. All the magic of the BB died with Brian’s Smile failure.
@@marioa.8131 I guess we’ll never know…but I agree with everything you said about Mike Love. Total hack.
@@marioa.8131 Not sure where you were, but I was aware of the legend of Smile in the late Eighties and it was already an old legend then.
@@marioa.8131 I would actually argue that SMiLE actually being released would've kept Brian from having a complete mental breakdown. SMiLE would've changed everything for the Beach Boys. The fact that they moved on irl doesn't really affect the hypothetical scenario
Pet Sounds and Smile are the GOAT.
That’s like saying lemons are better than oranges.
They are each their own unique bands. Thankful we were blessed to have them both!!!
Man, I just discovered the existence of SMiLE some weeks ago and it blew my mind. I have listened to many contemporary music, even experimental music, and SMiLE impressed me like no other album I've ever heard. And it impresses me the fact that you make this video this year. I think that this album, regardless of the 40 years of delay, will have at least a considerable influence to the music of the XXI century. I think it's time for the popular music to change and to stop sticking around paradigms that have lasted almost 60 years.
You nailed it my friend
Amen
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@@NoNameNo.5It’s a great album but it’s not quite a game changer for music the way the Beatles of The Beach Boys were in their heyday rivalry.
Brian Wilson said that The Beatles and The Beach Boys chased each other up a spire as Jordan Warner helpfully pointed out. They helped each other to improve. I'd agree with that.
Yes I would as well! They really pushed each other up the hill of greatness! Thank god for competition!
Nah
@@NAETEMUSIC No way
The Beatles had a much easier freeway to be better... Brian & Paul were on even playing fields (even Brian may have been ahead by a smidge) But the Beatles had John & George... & GEORGE Martin that is. They definitely inspired one another, but the Beatles had it easier. PERIOD.
Yeah but that ended with pet sounds n good vibrations. They flipped the script. The Beatles were trying to be The Beach Boys at that time. The Beach Boys weren’t trying to be the Beatles they just weren’t. They didn’t try to write guitar rock. They were way past that n the Beatles were playing catch up.
Happy I found you. I adore Brian’s music and mind. In 2016, I was blessed to stand near him and say to him, “Thanks for all the joy, Brian.”
George Martin once said that Brian was the musician who challenged the Beatles most of all. No one made a bigger impact on the Beatles than Brian
I seriously doubt that that's true. Wilson may have fired Lennon and McCartney's competitive drive for two years or so, but Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Carl Perkins and Bob Dylan influenced The Beatles much more deeply and for much longer than any other entity, Presley included.
@@Azabaxe80 George Martin worked with the Beatles more than anyone else. He knows what he’s talking about
@@simonedwards9450 I wasn't disputing Martin's words, his importance to the Beatles or his respect for Wilson. What I dispute is the assertion that Wilson had a bigger impact on the Beatles than anyone. To put it mildly, that's highly doubtful.
@@Azabaxe80 the way the Beatles, especially McCartney, I agree with Martin. The others you mentioned definitely inspired the Beatles, especially in the early days, but the rivalry the Beatles and the beach boys shared has not been seen before or since. Wilson himself said the Beatles and the beach boys were chasing each other up a spiral
@@simonedwards9450 Something got cut off in your first sentence.
I don't want to belabor the point, but The Beach Boys weren't the only entity that influenced the Beatles during that all important 65-67 period. I personally believe that the Byrds were more influential on the way that the Beatles sounded than any other contemporary rock band. And of course, Dylan was deeply influential on the development of Lennon's songwriting.
Ironically enough, the most Wilson-like song the Beatles ever released was Lennon's "Because". ("Back in the USSR" is a spoof, so it doesn't count.)
Wilson's influence on the Beatles isn't found in songwriting or sound, but rather in recording technique. But even then, the idea of using the studio as an instrument, something that may have been pioneered by Miles Davis and Gil Evans in the late 50s, was already found in Rubber Soul. The Beatles took it a step higher in April 1966, when "Tomorrow Never Knows" was recorded. The main influence here were avant garde composers, which McCartney was heavily into at the time mainly because of their use of tape loops. Pet Sounds, as you know, was released in May 1966.
It's commonplace to attribute the inspiration for Sgt. Pepper to Brian Wilson, and that's fine by me. But many serious Beatle enthusiasts rate either Rubber Soul or Revolver higher than that record, and I agree with them. Rubber Soul preceded Pet Sounds, and Revolver was recorded concurrently.
Sorry for the long rant.
I love both bands but Brian Wilson probably is my favorite ever musician, his music has an unbelievable scope. It reaches from very simple to very complex, very happy to very dark.
I can confidently say Pet Sounds and SMiLE changed my life. Game changing music.
The White Album and Abbey Road (specifically) had the same effect.
Agreed, its innovations on form and concept were world shattering for me as well!
Didn’t have the same effect
Cool, but I disagree. Pet Sounds and Smile are far more cohesive, emotionally, and artistically satisfying. But Revolver is my Beatles pick, and that’s close.
@@IAmisMaster there is nobody remembers beach boys because they were all were boring . Beatles innovated
@@akshunnadevansh5531 Totally ridiculous comment
SMiLE is also my favorite all time album (even unfinished) for many of the same reasons that you mentioned. To me, without any formal musical education or knowledge beyond just liking what I like, nothing else sounds like it.
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The downfall of The Beach Boys was fame, money, etc coming quickly to young guys who couldn’t handle it. Brian imploded, Dennis went off the rails completely and the rest is history.
What really hurt them was the trauma they suffered at the hands of their father..... Without getting the support they needed, it only makes sense that they would struggle and fame would be the catalyst.
I think the reason why the Beatles held up longer was because had more advantages. They had each other to rely on, John and Paul had each other as songwriting partners, they had a mastermind producer (George Martin), and a genius promoter (Brian Epstein).
Brian, on the other hand, had no one. His father was abusive. His deadbeat cousin kept trying to sabotage his genius. His brothers tried to support him, but they couldn't really, because they had problems of their own too. Brian being the sole producer without a songwriting partner on his level led to him becoming a hyper-perfectionist (one of the reasons why he scrapped SMiLE). The public didn't like the experimental stuff he composed (even though the Beatles were fans, which you'd think would be enough for the public to like it too). Even the Wrecking Crew didn't really like him at first.
I feel awful for Brian, the man had a gift like no other, but it was constantly trampled by others.
Well said😢👍
I agree with everything you wrote. And as a result of all those aspects, the Beatles indeed were better
Exactly right. When you add to this Brian's own mental troubles, it's remarkable how much he achieved despite the hostile environment in which he functioned.
@@johnsmith100 I don't think the Beatles were better myself
Imagine the Beatles and Brian in the same band 🎸 🎹 🎶 🎵 ❗️😊
I remember I transcended when I heard Surf’s Up. What Brian did is something that is hard to explain, you ask yourself why can’t people do things in Style. Like really go beyond surface level, hard to describe, but Brian did it. This album has me remember of my childhood, you must show your kids this album, not cause you like it, cause it will leave a mark on their lives.
Another thing worth mentioning is that Brian composed and arranged Pet Sounds & SMiLE almost entirely by himself. Most of the arrangements on the Beatles’ artistic stuff were done by at least three people (Lennon, McCartney, and George Martin).
You all forget George Harrison who had that magic psychedelic in these hands
Brian didn't write any lyrics on both Pet sounds and Smile. The Beatles on the other hand did. I love Brian's melodies, but his own lyrics are generally lacking and can't hold a candle to Lennon/McCartney (although I love the "love you" album)
The Beatles were a team of geniuses who couldn’t keep up with Brian Wilson.
@@ifandwhen-kl2crI wouldn’t say that since Brian always needed help with lyrics while the Beatles didn’t
On Pet Sounds, the song "Hang Onto Your Ego" was changed to "I Know There's An Answer" at Mike's insistence. Mike's rationale is that taking LSD causes one to "lose their ego" and he didn't want any 'drug references' in the band's music.
If SMILE had been released in 1967:
Brian would not have dropped out of Monterrey
Hendrix would have not made the derisive comment about never having to listen to surf music again
The Beach Boys would have not spent years being considered a joke
Songs from the classic album Sunflower would have been heard on the radio
Was psyched to find your video because I've had conversations about this very thing. Smile comes out in 67 and the whole world would have been calling him the modern Mozart.
^^^^This guy gets it!!!
@@NAETEMUSIC I haven't been able to find out much about what the public reaction was to the Heroes and Villains single release in 67.
@@BoneCK15 Dismissive to muted sadly. Like I mentioned in the video because it wasn't the typical psychedelic sound of sitars, echo etc. The 60s press didn't know what to do with it. Hell, Jimi Hendrix insulted the group over that single!
@@NAETEMUSIC well if Smile did come out I'm pretty sure it would have went the way of Pet Sounds and England was going to have to once again school America on its own music.
If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.
Except for Dennis, the other Beachboys and specifically Mike Love, along with LSD led to his mental breakdown. Brian is writing some of the greatest music in history and instead of love and encouragement he got derision. How could he not become depressed.
There is some truth to this, but it's narrow. It leaves out WAY too much of the story. First, Carl and Bruce Johnston were always extremely supportive of Brian. You nor anyone else can point to specific instances of resistance from either. But the much more important factor is that Mike Love DID NOT refuse Brian "love and encouragement" to any significant degree. Yes, by all means, Mike - and to some extent Al Jardine - DID express concern and reservations over the direction of post-Pet Sounds material, but if you will watch and listen to the studio footage from the Smile sessions and after, you will see Mike Love participating fully. Listen as you might, you will NOT find him being critical or resisting Brian's direction, and to this day NO ONE has substantiated that Mike ever uttered the words "don't f*ck with the formula, Brian," although it would have been totally appropriate. While all of us love Brian, and it's super easy to by sympathetic to him, it's not at all fair to paint Mike Love as the "bad guy." Brian was/is a musical genius, but that's only a part of being a successful band. Mike had the ugly responsibility of holding everything together while Brian succumbed to mental illness and retired to his bedroom. Why does NO ONE criticize Brian for all those years of lower-than-expected participation? Yet when Mike Love strives to keep the band relevant....he's an "asshole." I'm not big fan of Mike Love, but I recognize that without him the BBs would have imploded by 1972.
Mike wanted to keep pushing the same genre of lyrics that they were using in the early 60's. He resented being shut out when Brian turned to other lyricists to get away from lyrics that Brian felt didn't represent what he was feeling. This cut him out of future royalties. He was bitter towards Brian and there are interviews where he made snide comments that confirm that.
@@jakemitchell1671 I don't know why Mike gets hated so much. Yes, he's far from being everyone's favorite Beach Boy, and he does have a bit of an ego problem, but people act like he's the ONLY rock star with an ego.
He also began contributing to the writing process a lot more in the late 60's/early 70's, and he wrote or co-wrote some of their best songs (All I Wanna Do, Good Vibrations, Don't Go Near The Water, etc). I know he's an asshole at times, and it seemed like he was trying to sabotage them... but, he did keep the band afloat when Brian wasn't there to lead them, and he's also changed his mind about Pet Sounds as well.
@@jakemitchell1671 Agreed, the video creator takes way too many liberties in his criticism of Mike Love. I think what gets overlooked is that it was a band, The Beach Boys (with several individuals with opinions and ideas), and not Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys. Hard to blame Mike for expressing his thoughts and opinions where he was a major contributor writing lyrics for the band's earlier phase (and where many of those songs became big hits for them). While Mike may not have been as progressive in his approach to pop music, one could understand Mike's if ain't broke, why fix it approach.
@@kft590 Brian was collaborating with lyricists other than Mike Love as early as 1963 - for example LA dee-jay, Roger Christian, and producer, Gary Usher.
Great video, hats off to you sir. I'm baffled as to why Smile as released in 2011 is still considered the red headed step child of BBs albums. It works as an album and is fully realised as confirmed by the 2004 'Brian Wilson Presents' release. It lacks nothing and is 2nd only to Pet Sounds as a Beach Boys albums. People consider Magical Mystery Tour a legit album, why not Smile. Smile is an epic concept album a 400 Yr journey from Plymouth Rock to the Summer of Love with harmony that stretches the boundaries of pop/rock that is highly progressive.
Going through my annual Smile craze and watched this video again and man, it makes me so goddamn sad every time I read the story of the Smile project. I easily search and search for a few hours reading hypotheticals and people's opinions on what would have happened if it released on schedule in 1967 and I just become lost. Nobody knows definitively what would have happened, but I pray there's a universe out there where the Beach Boys eclipse the Beatles because it is a literal travesty how a genius like Brian was beaten down and lost his mind with his work finally being recognized as the greatness that it is decades later! To think that what we've heard from the sessions is considered unfinished is astounding on its own and a finished product would've made for another musical nuke at that time. I wish this album came out on schedule, everything done right, best case scenario in 1967 and that they would've headlined the Monterey Pop Festival with some songs from Smile and Pet Sounds. Call me dramatic, I don't care, but it's actually depressing that the Beatles got the glory of the world. We'll never know what that alternate world is like... apologies for the long comment, this is actually pretty cathartic for me and I wanted to get all that out of my system, but unreleased album or released sessions, I will take Smile to my grave.
Intrigued with Smile I began compiling my own bootleg versions in the late 1970s. My final version was created in 2001 prior to the release of the remake. Reimagined as a double album it ran 74 minutes. After the release of the Smile sessions I played producer again and created a 77 minute version.
Thats amazing! You're one of the true believers!
I compiled different versions of Smile from 1989 through about 2002. Then in 2004 I assembled a version that closely matched BWPS… a kind of precursor of Smile Sessions Disc 1.
What a great video! My favourite video on UA-cam man. I am not a music expert, but as soon as I learned the unlucky story of Brian Wilson I started imagining what nowadays music would be like if smile was released in 1967. Think at how much good music we lost after Brian mental breakdown. Today we would idolize The Beach Boys rather than The Beatles (which are still a great band). I wish I could travel back in time in order to help and support him. He was able to conceive God Only Knows, Good Vibrations, Heroes and Villains and Surf's Up in less than 2 years and in his prime he could stand up to the pair Lennon&McCartney.
Again, Thank you for this Video.
Wow man thank YOU, favorite video on UA-cam? That compliment touches my heart! And yes I agree with essentially everything you said here. Well put my friend. Thank you so much for tuning in and again I am glad you enjoyed!
Mike Love should have been Paul to Brian Wilson's John (or vice versa). But there's no way Mike would've taken the advice that Bob Dylan gave Paul and John when they were still just writing pop hits. Mike needed something more than just a hit of pot.
This all made me think that the main advantage that the Beatles had is that they were able to get out of England to Germany in their early years, away from everybody. Imagine if The Beach Boys left California in 1960, away from the comfort of the beach, the brutality of Brian's dad, and the repressiveness of the conservative mindset. Following their culture shock, maybe Mike and gang would've been more wiling to join Brian in experimenting more with music. The way the Beatles were game when Bob Dylan suggested it.
I too have always wondered what it would've been like if Brian's brothers and cousin joined him on a journey to greatness the way George and Ringo followed Paul and John. What music would be like today. I also wondered what it would've been like if Buddy Holly never died, if Chuck Berry didn't have to battle racism, and so on.
Such good points my friend. No doubt being under Murray Wilson's thumb for as long as they were, as well as being tied to Southern California their entire careers, never sojourning to England or the like to record at Abbey Road or something (Imagine the beach boys recording at Abbey Road!) definitely hindered the sense of confidence and purpose they all had, but especially Brian. Thank you fo watching my friend and for the insight!
The conservative mindset wasn’t bad
@@NAETEMUSIC no
@@firestriker3580Conservatism means not growing or experimenting in the art world. Not a good thing.
It's very painful to hear about SMiLE. I'm a song writer and musician who has written and recorded many songs and albums very few people will ever hear. Cannot imagine someone on Brian's level feeling the same way. That's enough to put you in the mental ward, or even death.
I loved this video.It's important to note that Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks reunited in 2004 to record. a version of "Smile" as a Brian Wilson solo project, and seven years later when The Beach Boys' surviving recordings of "Smile" were released they followed the song sequence of the 2004 solo version. I bought the boxed set version of "Smile" with a second disc of outtakes and made a mix CD of "Smile" following the sequence of the original 1966 album cover, which comes off as radically different from the 2004 sequence. Also it's I'm,portant to remember that the Beatles released their own ground-breaking album, "Revolver," between "Rubber Soul" and "Sgt. Pepper" and Brian Wilson began "Smile" as an answer to "Revolver" the way he had conceived of "Pet Sounds" as an answer to "Rubber Soul." Also the Beatles had three people - John Lennon and Paul McCartney as principal songwriters and George Martin as producer - to do the work for which the Beach Boys were relying on Brian Wilson alone. And John and Paul didn't have to deal with George and Ringo denouncing their modern songs as garbage and saying the Beatles should stick to songs about people holding hands.
Double dipping on comments. Would love to see a video on Van Dyke Parks. He certainly is an interesting guy. He killed it on Silverchair's Diorama. Really talented man.
On the agenda my friend, stay tuned!
There are a couple of videos about the making of Smile. Van Dyke Parks talks about Smile and other projects.
I’ve thought the same thing for a long time, how a completed Smile album released in the summer of 1967 would have changed everything for Brian and The Beach Boys. But sure how it would changed or affected the direction of music at the time. Great video, and thanks for all your hard work in producing it.
Thank you so much for watching it!
Smile,,,
Turn off the lights, get in the mood, slip on some decent headphones, and that's your evening's entertainment.
Hit play,,,,,
I can tell you put a lot of work into this, amazing video! It's always impressive to see a relatively small channel going all out with their quality.
Thank you! I am glad the hard work shows!
Great video, it articulates a lot of my own thoughts on this subject matter far better than I usually manage to do when asked about my love of The Beach Boys and the importance of SMiLE. Very well done.
Beach boys are always better
This is a great video. I will make sure to check out your other videos. I think your way with words was very calming but still intruiging and I could listen to you talk about albums for a few more hours I think. Im so glad this video exists. Not enough people talk about Smile, imo. And especially not about the whole story behind it. To be honest though i'm also a bit surprised this video exists, because im writing a script for a Smile themed video right now and the last time i checked (when i had the idea for the video) i couldnt find anybody talking about it, except for a few old documentaries. Im happy about more smile discourse so this is great. I plan on going in more detail about the fan-versions and the treasure hunt that went on until 2011 in my video, so i dont think ill scrap it.
Thinking about what music would sound like if Smile released back then is such a hard question. Because the impact could be immeasureble. Like Dark Souls is definetely a great game, but did anyone think it would have this giant cult following and define a whole new "genre" of games? no, of course not. So maybe Smile would have gone on to do exactly that. Bringing elements of it into the public conscience and future artists building upon that. Or maybe it would just be a fondly remembered psychedelic pop album. Who knows
As I said, great video. maybe turn the *ding* sfx volume down a bit next time, but apart from that I enjoyed this video sooo much and hope you keep creating cool stuff
Your kind words really mean a lot! and thank you for the "ding" feedback always hard to find the right volume but I appreciate the feedback!
I think it's really great that you made a section dedicated to the importance of mental health in media culture. Brian was never really supported during the times of his downward spiral, and he really needed it then. He was neglected by almost everyone. In the end, he couldn't handle the weight of his inner turmoil, personal pains, and pressure from everybody. He had to shelve SMiLE.
How truly sad it is to think about that. What if 23 year old Brian was in our current times, trying to make a "SMiLE" of some sorts? Surely, the results would be a lot more different.
I have never connected Brian's style on SMILE as Wagner. I really appreciate your input and in-depth discussion of this great album. I had an old bootleg of the album in the late 70s early 80s and was a fan long before many of my friends. Thanks for taking the time. Take care
Great video! You really did a deep, detailed dive into what we super-fans of both bands have always speculated if Smile had been released in '67. It is also criminal that the next 10 years of Beach Boys studio albums were so underappreciated at the time they were released; there are some gems in there that have only gained appreciation among the more hip and enlightened among us, ha ha... I also think the 2011 Smile Sessions release was also very
Thank you so much for the kind words and glad to hear you agree!!!
The Beatles were obsessed with the Beach Boys.
20:55 Another example of that technique is The Wall by Pink Floyd. The melody/riff of Another Brink in the Wall is repeated several times throughout the album. And played by different instruments in different tempos.
Would be fun to watch you do a deep dive into album/recording for a Beatle album, maybe about Rubber Soul, the first real “modern album”
Definitely something I am exploring. Stay tuned!
That isn’t the first real modern album dude. The Beatles didn’t invent anything
@@NAETEMUSIC Nope
It was NOT the first real modern album
@@firestriker3580 what was? And it was, Wilson agrees, it was the first album to be “self contained” and viewed the album itself as a form of comprehensive statement.
I don't know what band is better. But I know none of them could do what Brian did alone.
Facts.
The idea that Brian did it all alone is a myth. There's only two songs on Pet Sounds that weren't co-written by others.
@@bobbobbins4877 It isn’t a myth dumbass. Brian is a genius while Paul and John are just talentless hacks
@@bobbobbins4877 No there aren’t.
@@godzpeedx7ii75 Calling Paul and John talentless hacks is so ignorant. You clearly don't know anything about music
I would argue that during the 10 year period covering 1963 to 1973, The Beach Boys covered more musical ground than most other bands and musical artists do during their entire careers, including those of most of their contemporaries. This is particularly true during the period from Pet Sounds (1966) to Holland (1973). It was like listening to a completely different band each album. People brag about this aspect of the Beatles discography, but it’s equally if not more true of The Beach Boys discography too.
When you listen to the albums over that 10 year period, you realize that not only did they evolve and progress an insane amount over the first 5 years of that period, which is when Brian’s compositional and arranging skills grew by an insane amount (from Surfin’ and 409 to Good Vibrations and Surf’s Up (the song, not the album)), but that the amount of musical styles they covered during that 10 year period is nuts - baroque pop (Pet Sounds), folk music (several different songs spread throughout this period), psychedelic Americana (SMiLE) and psychedelic pop/rock (Smiley Smile) acid rock (e.g. Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow), rhythm and blues (Wild Honey), blues rock (Carl and The Passions), proto-prog pop and prog rock (Holland and SMiLE), country-flavored music (parts of Holland), hard rock (various songs throughout this period), meditational-style/eastern flavored music (Friends), not to mention of course the jazz harmonies and chords they infused into a good chunk of their music and their early surf rock material.
1. You’re totally right
2. No one even talks about how they basically invented chill wave on sunflower 40 years before it became mainstream
"This is particularly true during the period from Pet Sounds (1966) to Holland (1973). It was like listening to a completely different band each album. People brag about this aspect of the Beatles discography, but it’s equally if not more true of The Beach Boys discography too."
"The Beach Boys" didn't break any norms until they saw "The Beatles" doing it. Brian Wilson was INTIMIDATED into trying to go beyond the formulaic.
@@jnagarya519 pretty sure no one is disputing that fact, nor did I or N8 say otherwise, so not sure why you’re bringing it up as if I or anyone here was or is disputing it. In the end though it doesn’t make a difference; the music itself is what matters, not any of the narratives or trendsetting stuff surrounding it, so just enjoy it. 😊
For the sake of argument (I do love both The Beach Boys and The Beatles and Stones/Kinks/Who)
- We all here are fans of both rock n roll (the early years) and rock music (from about 1967). The Beatles progressed to I Am The Walrus to While My Guitar Gently Weeps to Helter Skelter, Revolution, Yer Blues, Come Together and I Want You and of course the Abbey Road Medley. The Stones - JJ Flash, Street Fighting Man, Stray Cat Blues, Gimme Shelter, HTonk Women, Can't You Hear Me Knocking etc. So when the public had clearly shifted its' taste to music that was harder and with more edge - let's just call that rock music - what songs do you say really qualify to be categorized in that particular genre? The public wanted songs that perhaps The Beach Boys couldn't or wouldn't provide. Led Zeppelin released 2 massively popular albums in 1969 dictating the direction popular music was going - with help from Jimi Hendrix 2-3 years earlier. Where were The Beach Boys during this clear transformation? This is why I think The Beach Boys fell off the public radar and only recovered periodically as a welcomed old times nostalgia act. Please once again I ask you - list the songs that you think qualify as legitimate harder rocking songs that I claim is what the listening public wanted around 1967/8 and certainly beyond.
All I can say is The Beatles actually played their instruments and sang on their albums The Beach Boys only sang after 64.
Hey, loved this video and very well made.
Really appreciated your connection of Wilson's canonizing of melody to Wagner's use leitmotif. I think your defining of this technique really connected some dots for me in terms of what I love about SMiLE so much. That said, I'll be watching your video on Wagner after I'm done writing this comment xD
I wanted to say, a modern album that invokes some of this same leitmotif magic for me is toby fox's Undertale soundtrack; It's on a very different bend than the traditional pop canon Wilson was working in, however I believe the works share similarity in a natural genius/creativity of songwriting.
P.S. You are a talented writer, keep up the great work!!
I freaking love undertale’s music good comparisons there. And thank you so much for watching I am glad you enjoyed!
Ive been searching for a video about SMiLE for so long and I’m glad to have found this. Amazing video, its really entertaining to watch a video about one of the if not the greatest album ever created!
I am so glad to hear that! And yeah I couldn’t believe how little there was about this album so I had to give my take! Again thank you for kind words!
Great work! I really enjoyed that video. Well put together too. Top Man.
Thank you so much for the kind words my man!
A wonderful and loving tribute, thank you! It's great to hear that someone who'd never heard SMiLE until its recent release can be so inspired to do this thorough and deep dive into its majestic beauty and genius. Other than the early singles that everyone knows, my first self-initiated foray into the BBs was stumbling upon Smiley Smile a couple decades ago and it flipped my world upside down. SMiLE then was nearly inaccessible and mythic, only available as random bootlegs and I was lucky to've stumbled upon a 3 lp one with tons of somewhat finished tracks and little clips from the sessions. I'd drive friends nuts with wanting to listen to nothing but this BBs era endlessly, obsessively wondering the same as you the how, why and what-ifs. Don't forget, before they went total kitsch, they still made some solid post-SMiLE albums, Friends being, for me another real peak and at this point a real contender for my true favorite by them. Thankfully I don't have to decide! Cheers!
Your work is exceptional ! New generations (including mine) are becoming less and less aware of the 60s music, Beatles of course, not even to mention the Beach Boys… even « old timers » are looking down on them, preferring Beatles or Stones, because BB is too « naive and being exaggerating positive » I heard it so many times it hurts. Brian was most of the time alone, he didn’t have a George Martin, a Brian Hepstein or a John Lennon to back, advise and support him, not to mention the commercial success that was not there with Pet Sounds, and the failed Smile project besides they are absolute masterpiece. The beach boys and Brian deserve so much more, I sincerely hope one day the world and younger generations will acknowledge
Great video! It earned your channel another subscriber 😎👍🏻👍🏻
I love the mention of Grizzly Bear and their album Veckatimest, it definitely pulls from the Smile concepts and it’s one of the many reasons it’s one of my favorite albums of all time. Dr. Dog also is a band who pulls from the Smile playbook when it comes to the Americana influence and harmony arrangements. When I first discovered Smile it knocked The Beatles out for me, and it’s the reason I strive to make the music I make with my band Superloser. I couldn’t imagine what it would be like if it was released as intended in 1967, especially with the sad case of Brian’s mental health. I personally think he would’ve ended up like Morrison or Hendrix sadly. But anywho, great video, look forward to more! 🙏🏻😎
Wow thank you so much for the kind words! And I am glad you appreciated that Grizzly Bear reference as to me the first time I heard them (years ago) I was like "oh yeah, this has Brian written all over it) I'll have to check out Dr. Dog! not familiar with them but from the way you described it sounds like my thing. Will check out your band my friend and thank you for kind words!
1. Thank you for expressing the genius of Brian Wilson so clearly and coherently. He's very underappreciated.
2. Loved the ending
Dude I just wanna say your channel is fantastic. Always looking forward to new videos from you. If you keep it up I can see this channel getting big and leaving a great legacy of music appreciation and information on UA-cam :)
My man you don't know how much those kind words mean to me!! thank you thank you thank you!!!
I know from my own experience it can be discouraging to put effort into videos that don’t get many views but your work is definitely not going unnoticed! :)
@@thereiffodyssey2000 I sure hope so! With folks like you I feel encouraged! Hopefully I can work up to making this a full time gig!
Pet sounds > Anything beatles release
Here are some notes I made during this video, things to consider: 1) There wasn't a full year between Good Vibrations and Strawberry Fields Forever. Four months separate their releases in Oct 66/Feb 67. 2) Everyone talks about the lineage and inspirations between Rubber Soul to Pet Sounds to Sgt. Pepper. No one mentions or talks about Revolver, which was released prior to Good Vibrations, and how it possibly influenced this "battle" between the two bands. 3) I don't know how much promotion would've been done for Smile, considering Pet Sounds scared Capitol so bad that they released a Greatest Hits album. 4) Mike Love is a turd, but he did write the lyrics for Good Vibrations and several other Beach Boys songs. Brian is not known for being a lyricist. 5) We never actually got Smile as it was intended. What was released in 2011 is what was cobbled together as the best known and intended running order, of which Brian wasn't even 100% sure how exactly the songs were supposed to go together. Sadly, there are several fan mixes and boots that sound better with missing backing tracks on various songs filled in. 6) I'm not even certain that all of the original tapes exist for the Smile sessions, and some of the ones that do have noticeable degradation on them, take Barnyard for example. Compared to Pet Sounds (especially the stereo version) some of the Smile tapes sound like they were either recorded on second generation tapes/reused or he masters weren't taken care of. I like what we ended up with, but the production is nowhere near the same.
Revolver as an idea caused pet sounds. Sonically Pet sounds caused Sgt Peppers. Also Brian being in the US is the only reason cause the UK version is not the same
You make some good points, but Revolver was only released a month before Good Vibrations, by which point the recording sessions had finished. Also, Mike Love is not a turd
This is very eye-opening. So very proud of your work!
Thank you so much!!!
When I listen to smile it feels like a meditation for the soul.
I am Bipolar. This involves having multiple trails of thought simultaneously, often with no clarity. I feel such a connection with Smile in the sense that I can hear similar thought patterns but brought into great focus. This album has flipped my life around, and for that I will put it out there that it is the greatest recording of all time. Brian Wilson ventured where other composers would fear to tread to bring us this absolute masterpiece.
If you want to have your mind blown, check out Dae Lims smile
Pet Sounds and Smile were great, but much of what made the Beach Boys really significant to the great canon was what they did from 1967-1973 when they became more of a band, and less just Brian's group. But even then Brian had a lot of control on Friends and Love You, to interesting results. Honestly, I'd rather listen to anything from that era over Pet Sounds/Smile stuff most days.
@sternenkind They basically invented multiple genres of indie rock decades before it became super popular a la Animal Collective, Grizzly Bear etc.
More accurately- 64-67;70-7.... specifically All Summer Long, Today, Summer Days, Pet Sounds, Smiley Smile, Wild Honey was their most memorable consistent era, no real debate; along w/ 2/3 of Sunflower, along w/ a bulk of Surfs up , Holland & Love You thoroughly sums up their quality output as a whole... 1977 was (indirectly) a passing of the torch & ushered in the Renaissance that would permanently validate rockNroll by quality over quantity when in the 60s it was both- case in point the Ramones rocket to russia,, easily the greatest most jam packed album since Wild Honey a decade prior. From that point forward & throughout the next 4+ decades quality rockNroll is something ya gotta search for & lies in underrated icons like the Queers, Barracudas, Sonic surf city, Travoltas etc.
@@kookadams85 Capping it off at 67 skips out on Friends, one of their most interesting by far.
glad somebody put the reasons why I love Cabinessence into words, this entire video is fantastic, thank you, now my family and friends will be able to understand my obsession with Smile and Brian Wilson
Glad I could do the album justice, and thank you for watching!
Excellent video man!! Thanks.
A fascinating alternative interpretation of the dynamics of 1960s rock music, well worth consideration.
My thoughts, the Beach Boys had a distinctive suffer sound and that is what made them. The Beatles had a more open all types of sound/music so they weren't stereotyped into their music. I think the Beach Boys were also held back with Brian Wilson being the only one doing everything, where the Beatles had multiply input for music, sounds, ideas. Even the names and promotion of the albums had an effect. Pet Sounds did not even sound like something of interest to me when it came out. The Beatles also had a great idea of using a different name (Sergeant Peppers) when they came out with the new sound for the album. The music on Smile just does not fit the image or sound of the Beach Boys.
Haha “suffer”
This video is fantastic! I'm a fan of both bands, and always thought both of their influence was undeniable. That said, I've always been partial to The Beatles (and THAT said, as much as I truly love the Beatles, the "greatest band that ever lived" superlative gets a bit tired for me).
Your analysis here has really opened my ears a bit more when it comes to The Beach Boys and I feel like I need to go back and listen to it all again. Thank you!
"THAT said, as much as I truly love the Beatles, the "greatest band that ever lived" superlative gets a bit tired for me)."
Name a contender.
@@jnagarya519 Well, I just don't generally subscribe to the idea that there is actually a "greatest band that ever lived", personally. Just because that's something that's pretty hard to quantify. I think that every band that's ever been has/had something to offer. Music is so vast that it's hard to compare the Beatles to say, Miles Davis. Both are considered greats for different reasons, but musically they just aren't really similar enough to compare. It might be more accurate to say something like "the Beatles are my favorite band of all time" or "the Beatles are one of the most influential bands of all time". That's just my opinion though (:
So glad I can share a new perspective, also your channel is great!
I was also blown away by smile. In addition, I love that you didn’t blame it all on mike, unlike many others. Great video imo.
People always reference how the beach boys turned into a nostalgia band. Forgetting the Beatles broke up in 1970. So essentially they both hit and ended their creative peaks at around the same time. Not only that. In the 70s the BB released surf's up. So tough. Holland and Love you. And while not masterpieces like pet sounds, these albums have some absolute masterpieces on them.
I believe someday smile will be widely considered the greatest album ever
Someday that never comes
@@akshunnadevansh5531 smile is THE greatest album ever made,sorry...
@@johndoe-cb5ck a night at the opera , pandulam , rise and fall of Ziggy Stardust
@@johndoe-cb5ck Sorry to bust your bubble but its not, one of them is pet sounds. Look it up. sorry....
Nice video about the groundbreaking sounds created on the Smile album! If I'd have a chance to talk with Brian Wilson, I'd ask him if he also considered using instruments such as the Armonica and Clavichord on Smile, and also, like his contemporaries, if he ever thought of placing a Sitar in a song. I'd also like to have the same type of conversation with Paul McCartney. With Paul, rather then asking about the use of Sitar on their songs, I'd ask him about if the Beatles ever thought of using the Theremin, especially considering Paul's admiration of Brian's songwriting.
no
Man, I love this, I just discovered Brian Wilson’s smile a week ago!
Thank you so much!!! So glad you found it fun!!!
Nice blend of factual and 'what if' storytelling here. I'm ashamed to say at 42 I only recently understood the songwriting genius of Brian Wilson and learned about his struggles and the whole story of the band after their early success. It is certainly strange to imagine the alternative legacy of the 'beach boys' name had Smile been released. I never realised the potential that was never fully tapped into and it's a travesty that BW, the unstoppable creative force that had turned everything to gold, was not trusted by the band or the record label. How frustrating must that have been to know you're about the change the world and yet not be allowed to do it because nobody is on your side and you're the only one who can see the future. How could that not take all the joy from your soul and send you on a spiralling downward trajectory. But having said that, no matter what might have been, BW is still revered worldwide by fans and musicians and he seems to have a very healthy attitude towards the past, i.e. no grudges or regrets. So he did change the world regardless.
It all boils down to these two questions:
*_What if SMiLE was finished in 1967 (with Wilson's vision intact), and what if it was released before Sgt. Pepper's?_*
And then what would've been Brian's answer to Sgt. Pepper after Smile was released? Would he have thrown in the towel? He was emotionally spent during the Smile sessions which he gave up in the end.
Hey, great essay! I'm a classical composer too, so i was gratefull to hear all the references you put there. The only thing that bother me was the "Mike love" chapter. I'm a beach boys fan since 98, and ar first i believe that tesis that Mike was the big and only factor that sabotage those great Brian's records, but now i have another perspective, knowing all their discography in a deep way. Reality it's never THAT simple, and i think the healthy thing to do it's to step away from the internal polemics and just listen AND enyoy their perfect records. Just saying, cheers!
Love this. To musicians who know theory, tonality, chord structure, etc. this video puts you on the right side of history my friend!
Thank you!! I approached it from a theoretical as well as aesthetic basis and I am glad to hear you agree!
Agree with almost all this, but it doesn’t stop with SMiLE, would’ve loved to hear you go into the albums that followed. Friends, and Wild Honey are great, Sunflower and Surfs Up are sublime and arguably their best work, Holland and Love You right up there as well.
Oh I definitely have on the agenda to do a deep dive into the 70s beach boys albums that ended up becoming the template for so many genres in of indie rock/pop in the 2000s early 10s. Thinking of Sunflower and Love You in particular.
I know it's been a while, but if you want a great example of an album with recurring elements and leitmotifs, I would highly recommend checking out Captain Beyond's self-titled debut album. The level of consistency displayed on it is something that I've only seen matched a handful of times (one of those being The Beach Boys).
Can someone tell me what id be looking to buy if i wanted this on vinyl? Seems to be a few versions ect.
I don't know a lot about music, but I know what kind of music I like, and what music I love. I like the Beatles, a lot, and I realize they are one of THE bands of the 20th century. I love the Beach Boys, before and after Pet Sounds. I think that any (online) definition of "sublime" should include an audio clip of "God Only Knows" or "Surf's Up." It's clear you know a great deal about music, and music theory. This is such a thorough exploration of "Smile" and its influences and motifs, and I learned so much in what, a half hour? Well done.
Thank you so so much for the kind words!
they were both great but when it comes to decide their best albums with the Beatles you're spoilt for choice, while with the Beach Boys almost everyone will choose "Pet Sounds"
Fair comment although I think that there are some other great Beach Boys' albums that don't get enough attention. Sunflower, for example.
@@angelajones4193 as a matter of fact I've listened more to sunflower than to Pet Sounds
@@stefano.b65stef77Yes on Sunflower many amazing things happened, not least of which was inventing chillwave 40 years before it became popular on "All I Wanna Do"
That’s because after rubber souls every album with the Beatles is a contender for their greatest album while after pet sounds, The Beach Boys only have an album that never came out and a bunch of would have could haves.
I think ultimately The Beach Boys and mainly Brian Wilson were the better band but the Beatles actually realized what Brian was aiming for.
Nope. There isn’t any spoilt for choice. Beach boys are spoilt for choice
This is absolutely outta sight. Amazing video.
I don’t think Mike is as much a ‘villain’ as he’s depicted here. Smile wouldn’t have been the same without his amazing vocals and lyrical contributions to GV.
So glad you liked it!
@@NateRuvin414 True, he might not have been as bad as all that back in the day. But STILL to this day he denies mental illness is a thing and doesn't think he did anything wrong to Brian Wilson.
This is an incredible blending of the classic chord progression. Brilliant and earth shattering sound.
I agree and I have often pondered the same question.I think the release of Smile in 67 would have profoundly changed the course of modern music as we know it.Yet,we are where we are and perhaps it has only delayed musical evolvement.
Your work is amazing!
My favorite band has always been The Beatles but I'm getting to know the Beach Boys' genius work.
It seems that nobody really likes Mike Love and blames him for the band's bankruptcy.
I think the Beach Boys is amazing because it's one of the bands where the members have less self-centered people, except Mike Love.
However Brian Wilson despite being a sensitive human being, he is an adult.
I believe the problem was really drugs. I think it's unfair to blame Mike Love that he doesn't seem to have any talent or intelligence.
Furthermore, excellent video and congratulations on his work.
First of all thank you for the sympathetic approach towards Brian's difficult period. I also want to agree with your views on Mike Love. 'nuff said 'bout him.
Ever since the 60s to the present day I have never been able to decide my #1 personal favourite single release but usually Heroes & Villains comes out top & I agree that the influence Van Dyke Parks brought to the project was unsurpassed, except for Robert Hunter's contribution to Grateful Dead's catalogue.
It is a great pity Smile was not released at this tumultuous time in popular music however as much as Brian's techniques were wonderfully different from others at the time, I do not believe future music would have changed much from what we have heard since then. Would Jimi Hendrix Experience's "Electric Ladyland" or countless others have sounded any different or Fleetwood Mac or Talking Heads ? I doubt it.
PS The first albums I bought were Surfing USA & Summer Days & Summer Nights
Dropping frizzle bear references in a beach boys video, pretty cool my dude
god damn I just want to cry every tear for the beautiful tragic genius that is Brian Wilson
That is a great instructive video. Thanks ! I have to ultimately admit I prefer the Beatles. But what would the Beatles be without the Beach Boys?
Thank you for making such an amazing content! I'm a beginner songwriter who hugely inspired by 50s and 60s songs especially with the Wall of Sound when I was listening to some stuff by my fav Japanese singer / songwriter / producer (Eiichi Ohtaki) who also inspired by the Wall of Sound arrangement
I hope there's more musician who can still preserve this kind of sound into the nowadays music
So glad you enjoyed and it was helpful!!
@@NAETEMUSIC again, don't ever stop doing this kind of great thing. It's not just me, but I do think that the others are also got inspired by watching your content which is awesome!
30:10 love how bruce is trying to stay neutral
Both great bands - The Beatles had more memorable songs ! Saying one is better than the other is noncence !
Are you saying Good Vibrations isn't memorable? California Girls? Fun, Fun, Fun?
Both bands are indeed great. But in my opinion, Beach Boys are way better. They just have way more memorable songs
its not nonsense (that is how you spell it ;) and The Beach Boys IS better and have more memorable songs so hush
@@danieltorresjr.698 THANK YOU. PREACH
Smile was finally released, a couple times, just 40 or 45 years late
No
Just listened to your analysis of Smile. I’m a listener rather than a musician, so my approach to understanding Smile is different. That said, I agree with you in the importance of Smile and a regret it was not release when intended. I was 12 when Good Vibrations was released in 1966. It rapidly became my favourite song of the era and I have when asked consider it the greatest song of that era. My first introduction to Smile was Brian Wilson’s reimagining in 2004. TBH I prefer this release than the later 2011 released under The Beach Boys umbrella. Maybe difference in early 21st century production techniques?
I read an interview with brian Wilson, shortly after his re-recording of Smile. The interviewer asked him if things would be different if Smile had been finished and released in its time. Brian's eyes welled with tears and he finally replied "...no"" before excusing himself and disappearing for several minutes.
You say it all when you speak of vocals. The Beatles were in a box. Brian Wilson wasn't just out of the box, he flew to the moon and back.
That's what I was thinking 😃😃
@@NAETEMUSIC He paid a price, too. BUT. What a survivor he is today! I want his newest album very much.
Have you seen how many studio musicians it took to execute their songs and sound? Pet Sounds had like 40 musicians credited. The Beatles were always essentially doing everything themselves with the occasional guest player. However, they had a great producer, no doubt.
Respectfully that argument doesn't really land with me. Was Beethoven less of a genius because he had " to have an orchestra play the parts he couldn't" See how that argument doesn't really have anything to do with the quality of the music?
@@NAETEMUSIC Not really. Not the same thing at all. He was a single guy, that of course couldn’t play all the orchestra parts even if he wanted to due to no recording technology, let alone track recording. But that’s not the question here. I’m not just talking about the strings, etc. The Beach Boys had other musicians playing basic instruments like drums, bass, guitar, etc. If they could have done it themselves they would have. They had just as much studio tech at their fingertips as the Beatles, yet those guys created and executed virtually everything they wanted to do. Not to mention the prolific amount of memorable songs they wrote in a 7 yr major recording career.
@@GoldTop57 but why does Brian + beach boys being able to do or not do something have anything to do with the quality of the music? Would your opinion on smile change if you knew it was made by just those 5 guys and it still sounded exactly the same? See what I mean?
@@NAETEMUSIC It doesn’t change the quality of the music, but it sure does make a difference to me if they had to bring in a ton of other top musicians to play drums, bass, guitar…core instruments in order to get the sound they want. That gorgeous bass line on God only knows? That’s Carol Kaye, not The Beach Boys.
@@GoldTop57 Again why does that matter?
Brian Wilson said that he ( like Elton John and so many other music artists have rightly said) thinks that Lennon and McCartney were the two greatest song writers of the 20th century.
Brian Wilson has also always said that when he first heard The Beatles brilliant album Rubber Soul when it first came out in December of 1965, he was blown away by it.
And he said all of the songs flowed together and it was pop music but folk rock at the same time and he couldn't believe that they did this so great and this is what inspired him to make the Pet Sounds album.
He also said in online interviews that he thinks that Rubber Soul is the best album ever and better than Pet Sounds.
A great video. just a few things in the beginning. Beach boys only released one album, before Beatles. In my opinion I will probably consider the 2 bands' early records equally as much a pre-curser to punk in different ways. Also a final nitpick, there were a few other members of Beatles before Ringo and the albums they made.
Pet Sounds and Smile made me forget about the Beatles and pretty much everyone else
me too
So true. There’s this blind devotion to the Beatles. It’s almost like denial. The Beach Boys changed everything and the Beatles wanted a piece of the action. Brian Wilson was on another level period. Light years ahead of the Beatles
@@StainedGlassWindowss 😆What you smoking like some of that.
That's funny you say that because the Beatles made forget the beach boys ..is that the name of the band?
@@paulmcnamara4774 Shut up dude accept the facts
brain Willison is the most under appreciated man in music
Sounds like what you’re talking about is a full rich Mono versus the Beatles Stereo. Since Mr Wilson is deaf in one ear, could that be why Pet Sounds and Smiley Smile were in Mono? I think The Beach Boys could have been embraced much more by the counter culture if the recordings were available at the time in stereo. My two cents.
Great vid! Was the order: Revolver / Pet Sounds / Mystery Tour / Sgt Pepper (Rubber Soul was 65)?
Pet Sounds was an amazing milestone album and Lennon, especially, loved it.
You mean McCartney really loved it
@@manny4552 uh well,, Lennon loved it, and so did McCartney, geez feel better now McBot.?
This video was incredibly well done! I'll never forgive Mike Love for the abomination that is Kokomo
Kokomo was only meant to be a cheesy pop song....not apropo to compare Kokomo to Brian's gems. give credit to what it was.....
@@johngjesdahl8140 Kokomo was actually written by John Philips of Mama's and Papas.
I love both bands, but that is not exactly true about the early Beatles only using basic triadic harmonies...they were more two part minded, but had some clever three parts too...but they leaned on the dominant 7th in their early 2 and 3 parts; blurring the lines of major and minor (like the blues does) plus they had brilliant creativity in 2 parts like 'If I Fell', or the oblique motion (high pedal tone) in the verse melody of 'Please Please Me', plus they wouldn't hesitate to harmonize some early lines in 4ths and 5ths as needed, (usually in passing contrary motion lines)...having said that, you make a great case for Smile and I really enjoyed the video
I wish I lived in an alternate universe where Brian finished and released SMiLE when he originally intended to.
I could not imagine what the original 67 finished version of SMiLE would sound like. But I guess we might never know :(