OOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHH, I ride um' slay em gooooooooooooood.... Ride myyyy hooorrrrrrrrssssseeeee THOUGH THE EVERWOOOOOOODDDDD..... Something tellling me they would be amazing singers, and would mount the continent and ride it to the ground.
“Texan Horde” oh god, in all seriousness there is a mod for crusader kings 2 called “after the end” where an apocalyptic event has reverted the world to the medieval age I the 2600’s.
As a Michigander I've always thought the Lower Peninsula would be a powerhouse in a medieval era. Protected somewhat by inland seas and an easily definable boundary at the bottom of the peninsula, easy trade access from the Lakes and rivers and on top of that lots of fertile lands for as variety of crops; cereals, fruits, heck we even have a ton of vineyards up north. And even better, we could still go to war with Ohio regularly!
The IRL Crusader States made much use of castles to hold territory, and since Utah would be surrounded by Goat herding raiders/tribals, and the Horse Tribes on the Steppes, it would make sense to use them here. Geopolitically, there appears to be little reason for the Mormons to expand into the Plains, causing conflicts with the hordes. They have a geographically secure location in the Rocky mountains, and are the only real overland route between the West Coast and Eastern America. Except for...Religion. The Mormons have many holy Cities in the Mid West. Far West Missouri, Liberty Jail Missouri, Carthage Jail Illinois (where Joseph Smith, the first Prophet, was martyred), Nauvoo Illinois, Kirtland Ohio, and even into New York state, where the Church was started and the site of the First Vision. Much like how the Crusades didn't make sense from a rational point of view, but were driven by religion, there isn't a real reason for the Mormons to fight the Steppe Tribes, except for religion. Hell, St. Louis or Chicago could send out a call for help, like the Byzantines did in our time. And if there is a surplus of young men in Deseret due to Polygamy, Crusades could become part of the religion. And if the Mormons are used to irrigating the deserted Salt Lake Valley, they might see the Steppes as a step up. (sorry) And these crusades, if successful, could then cause a problem for Eastern America, where they suddenly have a bunch of random heretics from the desert on their doorstep. The Mormons are big on Proselytizing as well, so they could swell their numbers and make allies from weaker powers. Looking west, they could also conflict with or cooperate with the West Coast trading empires. Once again, I think cooperation should win out. West coast specializes in water transport, and Deseret handles the overland routes, especially if they can conquer or treaty with the Plains Hordes. Then again, religion may queer the deal, if the West Coast is too godless. If Crusades become an accepted part of Church Doctrine, there may be a call to chasten the Heathens of the West Coast. People don't really know that the Mormon pioneers included a lot of British and German immigrants who were converted by missionaries in Europe, and then immigrated to the Promised Land. So Mormons are very Yankee, with a heretic religion thrown into the mix. Proselytizing and pioneering culture combine for a rough and ready travel culture. And Deseret is in the literal desert, so expansion into new territories would make sense from an economic standpoint. In Summary, Deseret is a cozy little place, that no one else wants, that would connect East and West (along with the horse tribes). It is defensible, and allows the Mormons to deal from a position of strength with their neighbors. On the other hand, religion and crusading could give plenty of reason for another path, and conflict with neighbors. But since the Church sees itself as peaceful, there would need to be some sort of organized Casus Belli for it to make sense. Reclaiming the Eastern Holy Lands, and Humbling the Western Infidels all make good sense. And this would be amplified by the Yankee industrious trader spirit. After all, the Protestant Work Eethic is strong in Mormon culture as well.
Now you see, speaking as an LDS person myself, I think it’s much more likely that the theological center of my religion in a Medieval America would be found among the nomads of the great plains, and not the settled people of Utah.
@@shorewall I wonder what would happen in the far future beyond medieval America if Europe decides to try to settle there, regardless of the challenge it poses even if it causes more shenanigans and electric Boogaloo.
Appalachia = Neo-Cherokees . It's almost as if weather and geography defines us culturally. Even if you replace the Cherokee and replace them with Scotch Irish its like they adopt the old culture regardless. I'm imagining now if the Iriqouis, Lakota, Huron and the Uto Aztecs would have viewed the Cherokee as we see the Appalachians todays. Because with Uto Aztecans they had their wild people in the Chichimecs. Even in the 1300s they would not travel into Chichimec territory and when they did , they would get annahilated . The Chichimec were called primitive but wild savage warriors. Do you know who the Chichimecs are today? Or where the Chichimec territory lies in today? Chichimeca territory was Zacatecas and Sinaloa... Cartel land. IN Mexico city, the same way we see the Sinaloans,Durangenses as backwards people with chaotic(boot) music but that we dare not step into their territory , is probably how the Aztec viewed the Chichimec in the 1300s. King Nachancayal would have probably been like the Chapo of his time. Regionally & Culturally nothings changed just the names we chose to call ourselves.
@@chibiromano5631 Not likely. The Cherokee never really had a medieval period. None of America did. Add to that most of Cherokee culture has been... erm... displaced (looks to Oklahoma)... and you'll likely find something completely different. Honestly, I imagine it looking a lot like Medieval Scotland. Lots of little to larger clans claiming territory within a larger state, both hating and loving each other, and banding together to fight off those who want to conquer us. And, for the most part, winning.
@@ModernWhoFan5B Was saying the Appalachian territory resembles the Cherokee settlment pattern. Not saying that Appalachians will resemeble the Cherokee ethno-culturally Altough there were Mulungeons. But either way , I guess it would socio-culturally be a mini scotland. But its interesting to see that Arkansas would probably split from the Split to form its own Ozark union, but it would resemble Chicksaw territory pattern. Texas also has something similar going with North Texas resembles Wichita settlement pattern. Theres even an inside Joke among texans that North Texas is basically Southern Oklahoma. I guess this goes back to the days before texas existed. It's also funny seeing that even in the 1600s Austin was culturally isolated from the rest of the Texas under the Tonkawa. But it's just a reference to settlement and political patterns almost looking similar from 1500s-present, but not cultural or ethnic.
People in our timeline: “The Midwest is insignificant.” People in this timeline: “The Midwestern Horde slaughtered my family and everyone I ever knew.”
In our timeline “the Midwest” is a bureaucratic fiction When someone tells me they’re from “the Midwest” my brain immediately wants to know “which Midwest?” The Northern Midwest populated by the Yankees’ westward treks and the Scandinavians and Germans who settled with them? The Middle Midwest populated mostly by the European immigration? Or the Southern Midwest populated primarily by Appalachians moving north and/or west from Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Kentucky?
@@ZedrikVonKatmahl Yea, we're so isolated that we've developed different sub-cultures of Midwestern. I live in Iowa, which is upper Midwest and I can say I would much rather be associated with Wisconsin and Minnesota than friggin Nebraska or Missouri.
@@Slapnuts9627 I assume you’re an eastern Iowan western Iowa associates more with Nebraska and Missouri politically and socially minus the football teams, go Hawkeyes
@@johnroberts4456 yes and like nw tribes they traded/raided up and down the whole tregion. some tribes wore armour out of stone wood leather bone that resemabled protosamuari style.
Man now I kinda wish my LDS mission had been a crusade into Arizona instead of knocking doors in Quebec for two years. We will reclaim the holy land! On to Missouri my brothers!
I can see a pattern compared to the bronce age in the east of the US, Strong Cities, Overpowered mountain people, and the random people from the "badlands" resetting everything every now and then
Fun Fact: St. Louis is across the river from the pre-columbian city of Cahokia. The city saw its height between 1000s-1200s which was considered the High Middle Ages.
Horseclans is a science fiction series by Robert Adams, set in a North America that had been thrown back to a medieval level by a full-scale nuclear war.
If you do another alt hist scenario sometime in the future I would want you to do a timeline where Oda Nobunaga wasn't assassinated and managed to unite the rest of Japan. It's a scenario that I'm shocked hasn't been done before.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi effectively succeeded him after a short struggle for power and then finished what Nobunaga started. So apart from Tokugawa shogunate being replaced by Oda or another clan-let one, I'm not sure how much would actually change.
There should have been a bit of medieval North America as a part of it too. Since a lot of Mexicans are descended from nahuatl people, you could see the rise of a Christian Aztec empire with medieval European technology trading with New Orleans
It looks like it reverts back how American territories were pre 1700s. The future West Coast Empire almost mirrors the Chumash and Pomos cultural map. The Deep South parallels the Cherokee culture map. It's almost as the Cherokee were the Southerners of the 1500s and Iriqouis were the Yankees of the 1500s. It's like history repeats itself , or geography determines our culture regardless of race(to an extent). The future Midwest mirros the Iriqouis,Huron and Algoniquin, PNW reverts back to Salish-Dene New Mexico & Colorado are probably taken back by the Navajo -Dene or a descendant Utah becomes a Mormon state but has Uto-Aztecan- Ute & Mexican influence. If this happens in the US, it also happens in Mexico too as Central Mexico would look similar to how Otomis & Nahuatl held control. So Central Mexico would look the same way it was when the Aztecs were at power. Southern Mexico would look like the Mayan territory /aka Yucatan Republic. Nuevo Leon-Monterrey would most likely merge with Texas and begin to resemble how the Comanche & Apache territory looked like before 1500s. Heck even the State of Texas is divided. If you look at a native american territory map it almost resembles todays cultural map. You have Dallas and Oklahoma under the same banner in the 1500s , fast forward today and Dallas is always refered to as Southern Oklahoma. Central Texas was ruled by the Tonkawa, phuck the Caddo and Wichita natives in Texas might have viewed the Tonkawa the same way Dallas and Waco views Austin today ; a liberal he** hole. Then you had the Apache of San Antonio and resembled more of the Apache natives of mexico. Really, nothing has changed politically and culturally. Basically we do a 360 and return back. There is the rule of the Americas, that Empires in North America only last up to 300 years. That's why there was so much instability in the Americas when the Europeans came, they were facing a post appolyptical civilization constantly fighting and not in prime shape. Veracruz Mayan-0-500 Yucatec Mayan-900-1100 Toltec-Otomi- 1000-1200 < Toluca> Nahautl-Aztec 1400-1500 < Utah & Mexico City> Illionois- 1500-1660s Nahautl-Tlaxcallan- 1600-1700 Iriqouis-1600-1700 Mexico City & Alta California-1700-1810 < California> American-1900- Present < 2100??> < Boston&Philidelphia but absorbed 50 states > Canadian- ??? Californian-Californio or Texan-Tejano ??
America did have its own "American Camel" thousands of years ago, which was likely hunted to extinction by early humans, as well as dozens of other large herbivores(sloths, mammoths, etc.). Maybe in this alternate history they survive?
I'm sorry I just couldn't believe it until I looked it up. Camelops Hesternus. Went extinct in California about 11,000 years ago, so not really that long ago in those terms. They were much taller than camels today.
Their extinction had more to do with the Younger Dryas climate disaster following a meteor strike on Greenland. Nothing to do with humans who then formed a tiny population in N America, with v low population density.
@@PolarPrincessa I did, and since I live 630 miles north of you and still deal with 10-20 days in a row, a few times a summer of over 100 degrees(with humidex) that line needs to be much higher north.
You should play the After the End Fanfork mod for Crusader Kings 2! The game is free on Steam and the mod basically gives you a Medival RPG experience in Post-Apocalyptic America. New England is filled with Lovecraft-worshipping Tribes, the Beltway has medieval Dukes deifying the Founding Fathers. California is a celestial empire stuck in a warring states period. Middle America and Texas are a great steppe with Cowboy and Native American hordes. And the Midwest is split between literal Minnesota Vikings and Cultists venerating factories and industrial entrepreneurs. Edit: Oh, and the South is turned into a giant HRE
Something about the Aztecs being great warriors despite their latitude is that they were technically imagrants from places like southern Arizona and New Mexico migrating more and more southward as time went on and when they showed up to Central America they found abandoned cities and people like the Mayans whose societies just collapsed so becoming a warrior culture was easy for them as they justified this by saying they inherited the previous cultures work while still being better than them
@@Acbrix Nah michigan back then had a smaller population than ohio like ohio had 10 times the population than michigan so it would be like scotland vs england all over again
want a game? play After the End for crusader kings 2. its basically this but post apocalyptic. but dont worry. most traces of the old world is lost and its trully medieval
A novel called A Canticle For Leibowitz" is about america several centuries after a nuclear war has ended our civilisation. The continent resembles medieval europe in many ways, including monasteries. Dies the Fire is another good one about a neo-feudal empire in Oregon.
I’m surprised that with a higher focus on water-based traffic, environment and location, that Louisville wouldn’t be one of the largest cities, simply due to the fact it lies upon a natural stop in the Ohio River, along the falls of the Ohio, so water traffic *has* to stop there in order to go further down river. In a land where naval traffic is king, the essential porter/port city would become huge in no time at all
@@demarcomixon True, but if it were to engage in empire building, it’s primary focus would probably be on the mainland up the Mississippi River, where it would see the most similar cultures and be the most vulnerable to attack. Only after securing a substantial portion of the Lower Mississippi and Gulf Coast would it expand south.
Northern British Columbia in our timeline were essentially Vikings, with groups like the Haida raiding groups all the way down to California. So if anyone would be Vikings and Scandinavia of North American it would be northern bc
Yeah in this timeline the tlinget haidia or whoever takes their place would be the vikings of this region they already kind of Were they just lack the technology to do Viking level the tlingets fucked up the Gulf of Alaska already and th Haida were also powerful but they could never really Penetrate southeast Alaska there'd tolltaly fuck up British Columbia I'm not really sure about the shimsian but those guys ain't that important compared to the Tlinget or Haidia
You should do a geopolitics/alternate history of “What If Pangea Never Broke Apart?” Basically would we be fighting or more United? (Philly having Western Sahara & Mauritania as neighbors, and Australia being 30 mins from LA).
I'll add my 2 cents: I'm not a fan of videos like this one, or your suggestion. The forces that would have to changed for that to happen are basically physics. It stops becoming alt-history, and starts becoming fantasy/magic. Same as this video, how did the Europeans get there? I can't ignore plotholes like those. Alas, just one man's opinion.
We would still be very divided. Lets assume that homo sapiens (and all other species) still evolved. Compare (pre colonial) Cambodia with the UK. Both being very different culturally and genetically Bare in mind that Oceans aren't the only border. Mountains, deserts, and Jungles/forests can be just as much barriers. India vs China Tunisia vs Ghana etc. Speaking of which, Northwestern and western pangea were blocked off by mountains was likely mostly desert. So think of these two regions as North Africa (Berbers) and Arabia (Arabs). Southern Pangea had a wide variety of biomes, and was cut of from the rest of the north via mountains. Meaning the human cultures might be more along the lines of Eurasia (vastly different despite being on the same continent). Lastly there was the southern part of the eastern north which was mostly jungle. Meaning the culture might resemble the Congo, Amazon, or Southeast Asia. Source: Atlas Pro
Seeing the most prosperous kingdoms being in the great lakes makes for a very weird situation. They are essentially a water based civilization that's actually landlocked without access to the world oceans.
Sorta but the St Lawrence is very treacherous (french explorers were famously halted by rapids after Montreal.) And the Niagara falls cut the lakes from the river. Nowadays a seried of locks allow for the flow of boats in the lakes and the St-Lawrence but then it would have been harder.
Considering its California, the cesspool of the U.S...I think it's a bit more than San Bernadino that shouldn't exist. Still praying Californians STAY in California and stop corrupting and making every other state as filthy and disgusting as it is. Or if they can't keep to their own little mudpuddle...that the whole damn state sinks to the bottom of the ocean.
In before Wohendum started equating the bad policies of California with every individual that lives in the state. I always thought this argument was funny like a carton of spoilt milk. Yes, I agree that this state is sh#t and that the corruption and party intrenchment is horrible for internal cohesion. But you do know that there's more than just a fek load of liberals here, right? While conservatives are a "minority" overall, theres still millions of em in california. To say something akin to "all californians should stay in their mudpuddle or have the state fall into the sea" is ignorant of the overall situation here and geopolitically for the migration out of the state. Oh and before you call me a liberal, I'm a god fearing conservative buddy.
I have wondered about this so long. Every time I go by a flat-top hill in southern Ohio, I think--hmm, in the Middle Ages there would be a castle there.
I feel the same way when i visit my family in Westminster, MD. McDaniel College would definitely be the town castle. It is on a hill, right in the center of town. I even redesigned it to be a castle once.
They’d probably be equivalent to the Russians of our timeline with massive tundras and grasslands at their borders forcing them to push far far far west of they wanted to avoid attacks by nomads.
@@TheWizardGamez wouldn't the entirety of canada work like this. Giant unending plains, or insane mountains. Dont forget the most rivers per km squared. (They are every where)
You should do a video on Doggerland, that one landmass in the North Sea that got wiped out by the tsunami caused by a Norwegian landslide, if I remember correctly. It could make an interesting scenario.
There is two important alternate history scenarios. 1. Greater Doggerland: At its greatest extent, the region connected the British Isle and the Scandinavian Peninsula to mainland Europe. Large, plentiful Riverlands would form like Eastern Europe. Except the warm ocean current from the Mexican Gulf would make it warmer. Doggerland is part of Indefensible European plane. And therefore several seafaring nations wouldn’t form. Conversely Denmark and the Netherlands would probably get replaced by numerous lesser seafaring nations. Europe is often divide into four 'unconquerable' corners. Napoleon proved that Italy wasn’t unconquerable. And to a lesser extent also Spain. But the British Isle was always out of reach. Even if you got passed the sea, an army would still be waiting on the other side. Eastern Europe is almost the exact opposite. You can continuously conquer and conquer new land. But no one besides the Russian Empire has managed to conquer all the way towards the Ural Mountains. I suspect that in this timeline Europe would resemble India. A large and diverse subcontinent that has continuously been conquered completely only to fall apart again and again. 2.Lesser Doggerland: This is an Isle located between Jutland, England and the Low Countries. Probably seafaring. Perhaps a number of Friesen kingdoms would form and be united only for the isle to fight off rivaling naval powers. After centuries of disputable independence, they would probably become part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Ireland and Doggerland. Although the will Probably be Friesland or little Frisia.
Doggerland not being flooded requires lowering the sea level of literally the entire planet. It's wild thinking how much ancient coastline and human history is buried beneath the waves.
@@erikthomsen4768 I've often wondered why there has never been any serious attempt, probably a joint English/Dutch/ Danish attempt to reclaim the Dogger Bank. The Dutch alone have managed to establish whole provinces by the creation of the polders, and similar work on a lesser scale in the Fens of eastern England.
@@mikesaunders4775 Oh it is rather simple. Practically speaking we doesn’t need more land. Some formerly inhabited territories like Utland has become a cultural and world heritage site. The Wadden Sea is not paticulary obstructive for the locals. And frankly it has become a desirable bathing area. You mentioned my southern neighbor. The Dutch does occasionally create new islands and other landforms. But the previous need simply isn't there. Markermeer Lake and IJsselmeer Lake could easily become new provinces. But the only people who have a serious interest in the possibility are the environmentalist who oppose it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthlande
this channel motivated me to go draw my own fantasy map using geopolitic as that basis, but seeing the complexity of this I'm really getting the sense there's too much I don't know for my own projects dang
I can imagine a sort of roman empire form around the great lakes, like it did around the midterranian. New Orleans would be either like a hot Netherlands, getting rich off the river trade, or be an asset passed around by the great powers surrounding it.
I can’t imagine a world where New Orleans doesn’t exist. Although there is one problem. If it wasn’t for modern day technology the mouth of the Mississippi would have moved by now, leaving New Orleans without its River.
@@Kaiserboo1871 Would a different city further upriver, like Baton Rouge or Shreveport, take its place? One whose port would be affected by the drifting of the Mississippi's mouth?
@@X525Crossfire Actually I just looked it up. It turns out the reason why New Orleans River wants to move is because of a manmade creation further up the river. Something called Shreve's Cut. So without that the Mississippi River would flow normally. Therefore, New Orleans wouldn’t need to move and would still be the Gibraltar of America.
Even though people tend to think the Hatfields and McCoys were a bunch of uneducated hill-folk, that's really not true. Both families were active in regional politics. Governor Henry Hatfield of West Virginia was the nephew of "Devil Anse" Hatfield, the leader of the Hatfield family. The Hatfields also owned a large lumber company too. The McCoy home was the sight of local polling place and was on a 300 acre farm. It also didn't help that the McCoys were pro-Union and the Hatfields were pro-Confederate during the ACW.
I would love it if you continued with this and dive into each region! But then again, I just love your content in general, and I will enjoy anything you throw my way.
I personally live in Montana in the general area of Flathead lake, and would be interesting in the implications of the scenario in the western Montanans northern Idaho area.
@@cadenmasa3451 Californian my whole life. Very weird to imagine it becoming a maritime empire - wonder if it'd be most similar to the Vikings, Italians, or Malay of our world.
@@perrytran9504 probably more similar to the Italians like Venice and Genoa. High amounts of wealth and prosperity combined with relatively low land size sounds like Venice to a T
"Pacific Northwest would be in a really advantageous position" Everyone in Portland, San Francisco, and Seattle: 😃 Everyone literally more than 150 km inland when they really realize Portland, San Francisco, and Seattle will be in charge: 😰
Another medieval america book is A Canticle for Leibowitz. It follows the 1000 year history of a post apocalyptic america, from the nuclear war until a new renaissance.
I've been thinking about this for months now, and I consider it absolutely fascinating! I was EXTREMELY pleasantly surprised when I saw this video from you. I would love to discuss this with you sometime in discord or elsewhere, this topic has always been incredibly intriguing to me.
One fairly significant problem in your analysis of the Pacific Northwest: the Willamette Valley of Oregon. Its the reason people flocked to the Oregon Territory in the 1830's and 40's. It is one of the most productive and easy to farm regions on the planet, without the irrigation and droughts of the California central valley. In short, whomever controls the Willamette will come to control most of 'Cascadia' including the Puget Sound (which has crappy farmland other than a few pockets here and there, resulting in lots of fishing villages and loggers), and the Yakima/Columbia valley east up the Columbia. Remember, there's a reason Oregon became a state 50 years before Washington. Imagine if you will, a feudal farming region with annual crop surpluses, able to project power from behind some of the best natural ramparts anywhere ( the Cascades and the Rockies). While I agree the PNW will be separate and weird from the rest of North America, I think you've missed where the center of power on the West Coast would be.
I feel like New England would be like anglo saxon England where they're independent kingdoms but there's an overlord setting an example for the other kings
I absolutely implore you to make more videos like this!!!! It was absolutely fascinating from start to finish and I am completely impressed by both your knowledge of history and your alternate history analysis! ABSOLUTELY PERFECT! Bravo!
I think it would be awesome to do a series on this starting from the very beginning and leading up to the modern day. I know that isnt exactly your thing, but I really think you got the mind for it. Great video!
At 14:32 you missed an important trade route, the Hudson/Mohawk/Champlain Coridor. Even without the Erie Canal, Onida Lake would still connect with Lake Ontario.
He also technically missed that the Ohio River is split down the middle by the Falls of the Ohio, which necessitated the water-bound cargo be taken over land to the lower end of the Ohio, before the locks & dams were installed. As such, a town such as New Albany or Louisville, which is situated upon said midpoint, would be critical within a medieval societ.
I feel like Mexico would be kind of like pre British india where it’s divided by many different countries due to its mountainous terrain and the ability for outsiders to invade from texas Central America or even cuba. I wonder if cuba would be like a second uk and if it would then I’d love to see the u.k. Cuban naval arms race
To Whatifalthist, this is your best video imo. I f'in love this concept of "Medieval United States" and would be riveted if you could make more on the kingdoms and cultures of this fictional world. It reminds me of Fallout New Vegas' NCR or Caesars Legion. Keep up the great work
Today I learned your name is Rudyard. 😂🤣 But that is actually very cool “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ~ Rudyard Kipling
Also Acadia in south Louisiana could be its own region as it Culturally has been separate for years, as staunch Catholics and French speaking it would separate them from the rest of Louisiana
Disagree. The Cajuns came from further up North and were displaced by the anglo-Americans. In this timeline, with castle technology there's no way such a displacement would occur and Acadia would never exist.
Washingtonian here, central Washington is a vast natural irrigation area that farms don’t require (depending on plant) industrial hydroponics. The Columbia’s basin and Palouse are bisected by many rivers and I believe would be distinctly different than the mountain ranges to its east and west (Rockies and cascades)
I feel like Crowley's Ridge would be a good mix of Good warriors from Ozarks and good traders from the Mississippi. Also louisiana would probably become the egypt of this world
@@sweden7675 oh yeah most do usually the different peoples have their own stories. We have superstitions too. Like you never close someone else's knife, if you open the knife you close it or it's bad luck
I had been thinking about writing a book that takes place in a medieval setting in a land based on North America as opposed to being another copy/paste of Europe. This should help guide the world building a little more.
Just find a legitimate way that Europe had a need for mass emigration, and that they chose America over other areas. Plus you need to make naval technology happen a lot earlier.
Might seem like a weird suggestion but... What would eastern Europe be like if the eastern Germanic people maintained a strong presence in the area after the Hun invasion?
A still largely ''commodities explorer/exporter'' based economy with few oligarchs controlling large portions of the fertile land; Cities that flower unplanned according with rural migrations filled with small businesses of tradesman, artisans and other services; The existence of basically full on personal armies under service of those rich land owners (most with ties with the government, when not officials themselves) to protect them in, essentially, houses that look like fortresses; Large amount of a semi-educated population without land or homes of their own, be it on the field or city, whose lives only matter to the rulers when it's time to pay lip service... Woah it will be really hard to think how a medieval LATAM would look like... You just got to remove the XXI century tech (when it's not just XX tech) and make a few adjustments on a XVIII political structure. Don't @ me, I'm from Latin America, you guys know it's true.
They'd be more indigenous and less Latin, probably; the Spanish and Portuguese were very good about coöpting local aristocracy and creating Mestizo communities. The _bandeirantes_ of Brazil were almost to a man mixed-race Portuguese-Amerind and spoke Old Tupi rather than Portuguese; these would probably develop the coast into feudal societies similar to Iberia and from there slooooooowly conquer the forest tribes inland. Argentina and Uruguay would be in the same situation, but probably with some more tendency to cattle herding. In the Andes, assuming the Spanish were able to conquer the Incan empire, they would still probably adopt most of the cultural practices of the Quechua and Aymara (as they did in the real world, to a great extent) and in a few generations we might have some successful rebellion by the local aristocracy and have the Incan Empire restored, but now Catholic. In the Amazon basin, we might have some small outposts a bit along the Amazon, but otherwise the natives would be left to their own devices to practise primitive subsistence farming supplemented by hunting and gathering, as they did in our world. Central America and Southern Mexico would probably be mostly indigenous, possibly converted to Catholicism as this was a very big motivation for Spain and Portugal's American efforts. If so, it would probably be a very syncretic form of Catholicism, however. Regarding central and northern Mexico, it could be that Cortez would still have beaten the Aztecs, but if so they would have probably simply been replaced by one of the Nahua states like Tlaxcala, possibly initially as a formal vassal of Castille, and then eventually as a ruler of the area (hopefully less alienating of their vassals as the Aztecs were). Again, Catholicism might make some inroads here to obviate the need for Flower Wars and create a stabler Mexico valley, probably still Nahuatl-speaking.
This was absolutely fascinating! I agree that the Great Lakes and Mississippi River are the key to the continent for Medieval era technology. If Chicago were able to construct something similar to the modern Chicago Sanitary Canal (around 30 miles), it would be a game changer and center them in an Great Lakes / Mississippi version of the Hanseatic League (the Stecknitz Canal of the 14th century in Lubeck / Hamburg is 60 miles, so this would be quite possible and it was already a portage site for the Illinois and Miami tribes). Another important portage is between the Fox and Wisconsin Rivers near Portage, Wisconsin, connecting Green Bay / Lake Winnebago / Oshkosh to the northern Mississippi. Southwestern Wisconsin (known as the Driftless Area) was spared by glaciers and the terrain is less passable for marauding Western tribes but still very fertile and biodiverse, so might be important trade partners to the other Great Lakes regions. Another critical trade partner / rival would be the western shores of Lake Erie, with Toledo, Detroit, and the inland crossroads of Fort Wayne (part of the Erie and Iroquois tribal lands). I also think Cahokia (St. Louis) would be revived as a very important city in times of stability and unless Cairo could manage flooding, perhaps Paducah to the east would be another trade center (this was an anchor in what was generally Shawnee territory.) If these few hubs cooperated through trade or were held together by similar languages and religion, I think they could build strong enough city defenses against the Great Plains, and maybe manage some western river ports / fortresses like Kansas City, Omaha, or Minneapolis. If the Ohio / Illinois / Michigan kingdoms held each other in check through diplomacy and intermarriage, they would flourish, if they fought each other -- it would be the the Hundred Years War over and over. In times of peace the trade routes through the St. Lawrence to the northeast and Baton Rouge / New Orleans to the south would connect them to potential markets for refined products and if they had improved river and road navigation, and eventually tapped into the minerals that made the modern Rust Belt, they might build powerful industrial cities comparable to medieval Ghent, Brugge, or Cologne.
Cowboy throat singing is a genre I never thought I would need, but now so desperately need.
Just imagine a cowboy throat singing about beer and trucks
@@hollowhoagie6441 Imagine Marty Robbin's style of western country music except its throat singing. Now that's glorious.
@@i_dont_know_any_good_names5587 Puts new perspective on the Great Kahns from New Vegas. I wonder what they sing about and how.
I guess I'm a Mongolian cowboy now in this alternative universe
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHH, I ride um' slay em gooooooooooooood....
Ride myyyy hooorrrrrrrrssssseeeee THOUGH THE EVERWOOOOOOODDDDD.....
Something tellling me they would be amazing singers, and would mount the continent and ride it to the ground.
“Texan Horde” oh god, in all seriousness there is a mod for crusader kings 2 called “after the end” where an apocalyptic event has reverted the world to the medieval age I the 2600’s.
Lmao i reformed america as a jewish kingdom
Also why the heck is he proposing that the Midwest wouldn’t grow corn, I’m fuming
God, I wish they'd do this for CK3 now
@@kotzpenner they're making a ck3 version
@@doodlebot1844 niceee
I never knew I wanted something so much until I had received it.
same
Try the "After the End" mod for Crusader Kings 2
Same
As a Michigander I've always thought the Lower Peninsula would be a powerhouse in a medieval era. Protected somewhat by inland seas and an easily definable boundary at the bottom of the peninsula, easy trade access from the Lakes and rivers and on top of that lots of fertile lands for as variety of crops; cereals, fruits, heck we even have a ton of vineyards up north. And even better, we could still go to war with Ohio regularly!
Gay (90's style)
A Mormon crusader empire based out of Utah fighting horse tribes from Kansas, would be epic.
The IRL Crusader States made much use of castles to hold territory, and since Utah would be surrounded by Goat herding raiders/tribals, and the Horse Tribes on the Steppes, it would make sense to use them here.
Geopolitically, there appears to be little reason for the Mormons to expand into the Plains, causing conflicts with the hordes. They have a geographically secure location in the Rocky mountains, and are the only real overland route between the West Coast and Eastern America. Except for...Religion.
The Mormons have many holy Cities in the Mid West. Far West Missouri, Liberty Jail Missouri, Carthage Jail Illinois (where Joseph Smith, the first Prophet, was martyred), Nauvoo Illinois, Kirtland Ohio, and even into New York state, where the Church was started and the site of the First Vision.
Much like how the Crusades didn't make sense from a rational point of view, but were driven by religion, there isn't a real reason for the Mormons to fight the Steppe Tribes, except for religion. Hell, St. Louis or Chicago could send out a call for help, like the Byzantines did in our time. And if there is a surplus of young men in Deseret due to Polygamy, Crusades could become part of the religion. And if the Mormons are used to irrigating the deserted Salt Lake Valley, they might see the Steppes as a step up. (sorry)
And these crusades, if successful, could then cause a problem for Eastern America, where they suddenly have a bunch of random heretics from the desert on their doorstep. The Mormons are big on Proselytizing as well, so they could swell their numbers and make allies from weaker powers.
Looking west, they could also conflict with or cooperate with the West Coast trading empires. Once again, I think cooperation should win out. West coast specializes in water transport, and Deseret handles the overland routes, especially if they can conquer or treaty with the Plains Hordes. Then again, religion may queer the deal, if the West Coast is too godless. If Crusades become an accepted part of Church Doctrine, there may be a call to chasten the Heathens of the West Coast.
People don't really know that the Mormon pioneers included a lot of British and German immigrants who were converted by missionaries in Europe, and then immigrated to the Promised Land. So Mormons are very Yankee, with a heretic religion thrown into the mix. Proselytizing and pioneering culture combine for a rough and ready travel culture. And Deseret is in the literal desert, so expansion into new territories would make sense from an economic standpoint.
In Summary, Deseret is a cozy little place, that no one else wants, that would connect East and West (along with the horse tribes). It is defensible, and allows the Mormons to deal from a position of strength with their neighbors. On the other hand, religion and crusading could give plenty of reason for another path, and conflict with neighbors.
But since the Church sees itself as peaceful, there would need to be some sort of organized Casus Belli for it to make sense. Reclaiming the Eastern Holy Lands, and Humbling the Western Infidels all make good sense. And this would be amplified by the Yankee industrious trader spirit. After all, the Protestant Work Eethic is strong in Mormon culture as well.
Now you see, speaking as an LDS person myself, I think it’s much more likely that the theological center of my religion in a Medieval America would be found among the nomads of the great plains, and not the settled people of Utah.
@@1lobster Get out of the LDS
@@shorewall I wonder what would happen in the far future beyond medieval America if Europe decides to try to settle there, regardless of the challenge it poses even if it causes more shenanigans and electric Boogaloo.
as a morman I agree
As an Appalachian, I 100% agree that y'all ain't gonna be havin' a good time conquering us.
Here comes the inbred cavalry.
"Why do I hear banjos?"
Appalachia = Neo-Cherokees . It's almost as if weather and geography defines us culturally. Even if you replace the Cherokee and replace them with Scotch Irish its like they adopt the old culture regardless. I'm imagining now if the Iriqouis, Lakota, Huron and the Uto Aztecs would have viewed the Cherokee as we see the Appalachians todays.
Because with Uto Aztecans they had their wild people in the Chichimecs. Even in the 1300s they would not travel into Chichimec territory and when they did , they would get annahilated . The Chichimec were called primitive but wild savage warriors.
Do you know who the Chichimecs are today? Or where the Chichimec territory lies in today?
Chichimeca territory was Zacatecas and Sinaloa... Cartel land.
IN Mexico city, the same way we see the Sinaloans,Durangenses as backwards people with chaotic(boot) music but that we dare not step into their territory , is probably how the Aztec viewed the Chichimec in the 1300s. King Nachancayal would have probably been like the Chapo of his time.
Regionally & Culturally nothings changed just the names we chose to call ourselves.
@@chibiromano5631 Not likely. The Cherokee never really had a medieval period. None of America did. Add to that most of Cherokee culture has been... erm... displaced (looks to Oklahoma)... and you'll likely find something completely different.
Honestly, I imagine it looking a lot like Medieval Scotland. Lots of little to larger clans claiming territory within a larger state, both hating and loving each other, and banding together to fight off those who want to conquer us. And, for the most part, winning.
@@ModernWhoFan5B Was saying the Appalachian territory resembles the Cherokee settlment pattern. Not saying that Appalachians will resemeble the Cherokee ethno-culturally Altough there were Mulungeons. But either way , I guess it would socio-culturally be a mini scotland.
But its interesting to see that Arkansas would probably split from the Split to form its own Ozark union, but it would resemble Chicksaw territory pattern.
Texas also has something similar going with North Texas resembles Wichita settlement pattern. Theres even an inside Joke among texans that North Texas is basically Southern Oklahoma. I guess this goes back to the days before texas existed.
It's also funny seeing that even in the 1600s Austin was culturally isolated from the rest of the Texas under the Tonkawa.
But it's just a reference to settlement and political patterns almost looking similar from 1500s-present, but not cultural or ethnic.
After the End Fan Fork: "write that down write that down!"
Ye they really should add some sort of Mongol Empire that could develop in the Great Plains
Tbh it is astonishing how many things he mentioned that mod has. I bet he knows about it
@@peterfu6213 I think they do already, the Iron confederacy IIRC
I've wanted this mod for ck3 since it came out
they will rather add some cringe like muslim mahreb invasion
People in our timeline: “The Midwest is insignificant.”
People in this timeline: “The Midwestern Horde slaughtered my family and everyone I ever knew.”
In our timeline “the Midwest” is a bureaucratic fiction
When someone tells me they’re from “the Midwest” my brain immediately wants to know “which Midwest?”
The Northern Midwest populated by the Yankees’ westward treks and the Scandinavians and Germans who settled with them? The Middle Midwest populated mostly by the European immigration? Or the Southern Midwest populated primarily by Appalachians moving north and/or west from Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Kentucky?
@@ZedrikVonKatmahl Yea, we're so isolated that we've developed different sub-cultures of Midwestern. I live in Iowa, which is upper Midwest and I can say I would much rather be associated with Wisconsin and Minnesota than friggin Nebraska or Missouri.
@@Slapnuts9627
We developed different subcultures because we started with different base cultures
start with TIMUR TAMERLANE THE SWORD OF ISLAM
@@Slapnuts9627 I assume you’re an eastern Iowan western Iowa associates more with Nebraska and Missouri politically and socially minus the football teams, go Hawkeyes
just thinking about the incredible bloodshed between Ohio and Michigan over toledo makes me shiver...
oh lord that would be brutal
like the wars over Alsace-Lorraine
Vive le Ohio!
@@charlesbechen821 Michigan uber alles
Hail Michigan an may she rule the 7 lakes in her glory and slay the ohio dogs.
it would be like the bloodshed over the original Toledo
Definitely want to hear more about New Orleans, Ohio, the Pacific Northwest, and of course… Mongol cowboys.
Cascadia all about business and raiding
@@subgum3403 So... The Norse?
@@johnroberts4456 yes and like nw tribes they traded/raided up and down the whole tregion. some tribes wore armour out of stone wood leather bone that resemabled protosamuari style.
@@subgum3403 that would be lamellar armor. Less stone and bone, more thick scales of leather, bronze, wood, or the like laced together
Lol New Orleans doesn't even have a dot for half the video
Man now I kinda wish my LDS mission had been a crusade into Arizona instead of knocking doors in Quebec for two years. We will reclaim the holy land! On to Missouri my brothers!
Deus Vult! For our lovely deseret!
they do be growing in missouri..
Time to convert the heathen masses of the San Franciscan Empire! Onward brothers and sisters!!
A crusade to reclaim the holy land. Reclaim the sacred grove!
Nah bro, watch out for the Methodist crusaders of Missouri, they’ll kick your ass and march you back to Utah..
I can see a pattern compared to the bronce age in the east of the US, Strong Cities, Overpowered mountain people, and the random people from the "badlands" resetting everything every now and then
Oh no, not the Dark Ages
Oh no, not the late Bronze Age collapse 😩
@
*Rome falls to barbarians*
*Constantinople falls to barbarians*
*time to panic*
As a mountain person, I approve
Fun Fact: St. Louis is across the river from the pre-columbian city of Cahokia. The city saw its height between 1000s-1200s which was considered the High Middle Ages.
Protect the God-Emperor of St Louis!
In europe but not in america
@Doug Sawyer
It was a joke dude.
In reference to the After the End mod for CK2.
@Doug Sawyer I agree with you - as a former resident of it.
@@stevanstankoviii-2989 no in america
I’d love to see more of the cowboy mongols with their throat singing, hope this turns into a whole series!
I found It
m.ua-cam.com/video/xr4vrHIIo1I/v-deo.html
It would exactly like that in sure
You need to make a book that documents the entirety of this world in detail. I’m not saying you have to, but it’s what the world needs
Correct
Absolutely. I would read it.
Agreed
Horseclans is a science fiction series by Robert Adams, set in a North America that had been thrown back to a medieval level by a full-scale nuclear war.
@@mikebrines5708 Came to post this.
So basically the Pacific Northwest would turn into: "Yeah, but have you tried fishing.... on weed?!?!?"
No
That's what it's already like here.
yeah it is like that here, id do it, but i personally wouldn't be able to stay awake
basically what it is today
It should be stressed that, while reading this, one must also replicate the "on WEEEEEED" facial movement he did as well.
All hail the Great Sheriff of Wyoming, wearer of the 10 gallon crown! (After the End is an amazing mod)
Right up until you forget to switch to primogeniture and gavelkind shatters your entire kingdom because trailwalker concubines.
I can’t even begin to tell you how badly I want Kansas Horseback Archers to be a thing
Bleeding Kansan Hunters
@Doug Sawyer 'til the Song Chinese start trading firelances with the Pacific Empire for tribute
150 years ago Horseback Archers in Kansas were a thing
@Doug Sawyer You have the profile pic of a 50 year old man but you talk like a 7th grade edgelord. Good job.
I call dibs on being Great Khan of the Kansan Ilkhanate. We will ride east until we reach the great ocean, none shall stop us.
If you do another alt hist scenario sometime in the future I would want you to do a timeline where Oda Nobunaga wasn't assassinated and managed to unite the rest of Japan. It's a scenario that I'm shocked hasn't been done before.
Yes. Let’s get this comment to the top folks!
Toyotomi Hideyoshi effectively succeeded him after a short struggle for power and then finished what Nobunaga started. So apart from Tokugawa shogunate being replaced by Oda or another clan-let one, I'm not sure how much would actually change.
honestly, i am too
@@uralskicossack Nobunaga wanted to gain colonies for Japan like Europeans did.
A more interesting one, I think, would be asking what if Hideyoshi conquered China?
So a Medieval America would basically be Africa, Asia, and Europe all squished onto one continent?
I mean... Those ARE the climates and biomes it covers.
There should have been a bit of medieval North America as a part of it too. Since a lot of Mexicans are descended from nahuatl people, you could see the rise of a Christian Aztec empire with medieval European technology trading with New Orleans
Yo that sounds so cool tbh
It looks like it reverts back how American territories were pre 1700s. The future West Coast Empire almost mirrors the Chumash and Pomos cultural map.
The Deep South parallels the Cherokee culture map. It's almost as the Cherokee were the Southerners of the 1500s and Iriqouis were the Yankees of the 1500s. It's like history repeats itself , or geography determines our culture regardless of race(to an extent). The future Midwest mirros the Iriqouis,Huron and Algoniquin,
PNW reverts back to Salish-Dene New Mexico & Colorado are probably taken back by the Navajo -Dene or a descendant
Utah becomes a Mormon state but has Uto-Aztecan- Ute & Mexican influence.
If this happens in the US, it also happens in Mexico too as Central Mexico would look similar to how Otomis & Nahuatl held control. So Central Mexico would look the same way it was when the Aztecs were at power.
Southern Mexico would look like the Mayan territory /aka Yucatan Republic. Nuevo Leon-Monterrey would most likely merge with Texas and begin to resemble how the Comanche & Apache territory looked like before 1500s. Heck even the State of Texas is divided. If you look at a native american territory map it almost resembles todays cultural map. You have Dallas and Oklahoma under the same banner in the 1500s , fast forward today and Dallas is always refered to as Southern Oklahoma. Central Texas was ruled by the Tonkawa, phuck the Caddo and Wichita natives in Texas might have viewed the Tonkawa the same way Dallas and Waco views Austin today ; a liberal he** hole. Then you had the Apache of San Antonio and resembled more of the Apache natives of mexico. Really, nothing has changed politically and culturally.
Basically we do a 360 and return back. There is the rule of the Americas, that Empires in North America only last up to 300 years. That's why there was so much instability in the Americas when the Europeans came, they were facing a post appolyptical civilization constantly fighting and not in prime shape.
Veracruz Mayan-0-500
Yucatec Mayan-900-1100
Toltec-Otomi- 1000-1200 < Toluca>
Nahautl-Aztec 1400-1500 < Utah & Mexico City>
Illionois- 1500-1660s
Nahautl-Tlaxcallan- 1600-1700
Iriqouis-1600-1700
Mexico City & Alta California-1700-1810 < California>
American-1900- Present < 2100??> < Boston&Philidelphia but absorbed 50 states >
Canadian- ???
Californian-Californio or Texan-Tejano ??
dude, we are america, africa AND europe all squished in one continent, in our real timeline
America did have its own "American Camel" thousands of years ago, which was likely hunted to extinction by early humans, as well as dozens of other large herbivores(sloths, mammoths, etc.). Maybe in this alternate history they survive?
I would say the ones that could be domisticated would sirvive
I'm sorry I just couldn't believe it until I looked it up. Camelops Hesternus. Went extinct in California about 11,000 years ago, so not really that long ago in those terms. They were much taller than camels today.
Also lions and horses.
Their extinction had more to do with the Younger Dryas climate disaster following a meteor strike on Greenland. Nothing to do with humans who then formed a tiny population in N America, with v low population density.
More likely that llamas or alpacas would be traded north, and re-domesticated for an arid environment
"oh shit I need air conditioning" is your best map ever.
except no everyone needs air conditioning, wonder why
He could’ve extended the line a bit more north in California because it got to 112 degrees for me last year
@@toddstevens13 gonna guess you have haven't heard about the 1995 Chicago heat wave that killed over 700 people?
@@PolarPrincessa I did, and since I live 630 miles north of you and still deal with 10-20 days in a row, a few times a summer of over 100 degrees(with humidex) that line needs to be much higher north.
The truest map ever
Please for the love of God go into further detail, I love alt-hist like this. Whatever you want man, I'll give my firstborn son for it.
Hahahah I love it
I agree
I am waiting patiently/impatiently for an extended series on this topic. I never knew I needed it until I saw this video.
@BLACKBLADE 80 Finally someone got the reference, nice
geese mate chill out but I too hope it happens
This sounds amazing. I now really want an RPG made around this
Total war america
Total War: Arcadia
You should play the After the End Fanfork mod for Crusader Kings 2! The game is free on Steam and the mod basically gives you a Medival RPG experience in Post-Apocalyptic America.
New England is filled with Lovecraft-worshipping Tribes, the Beltway has medieval Dukes deifying the Founding Fathers.
California is a celestial empire stuck in a warring states period.
Middle America and Texas are a great steppe with Cowboy and Native American hordes. And the Midwest is split between literal Minnesota Vikings and Cultists venerating factories and industrial entrepreneurs.
Edit: Oh, and the South is turned into a giant HRE
When I'm rich and famous one day I'll get right to it.
@@whitehorizon2225 Don't forget Catholic midwest, Voodoo Louisiana, and Nun-ruled quebec.
Something about the Aztecs being great warriors despite their latitude is that they were technically imagrants from places like southern Arizona and New Mexico migrating more and more southward as time went on and when they showed up to Central America they found abandoned cities and people like the Mayans whose societies just collapsed so becoming a warrior culture was easy for them as they justified this by saying they inherited the previous cultures work while still being better than them
The Black Hills would be another Large City considered how many tribes have lived there throughout history
Ooh, this is gonna be a good one, I can tell!
Yeah
indeed
As a Michigander, the Ohioan Empire is a terrifying concept
Fellow michigander do not worry as are Empire will grow to conquer the ohio dogs hail Michigan an may she rule the lakes
You wolverines can do better than those madlads
The wolverine shall choke on our buckeyes
You’ll pull through. You Will be their England and Michigan will be your Scotland.
@@Acbrix Nah michigan back then had a smaller population than ohio
like ohio had 10 times the population than michigan so it would be like scotland vs england all over again
the mountain people and the forest people... damn this would make an awesome book, just for the world
want a game? play After the End for crusader kings 2. its basically this but post apocalyptic. but dont worry. most traces of the old world is lost and its trully medieval
sm stirling wrote a whole series of this, dies the fire.
A novel called A Canticle For Leibowitz" is about america several centuries after a nuclear war has ended our civilisation. The continent resembles medieval europe in many ways, including monasteries.
Dies the Fire is another good one about a neo-feudal empire in Oregon.
“The Philadelphia-Cincinnati-St. Louis Line”
Mason-Dixon line seems to roll off the tongue compared to that
Even shortening it to Philly-Cincy-St.Louis doesn't help.
I think it can work if you shorten it to Phil-Cin-Lou Line, making it only four syllables (one less than mason Dixon line)
@@SupahTrunks7 Just call it the AC-NOW! line
Phil-Cin-Louis Line?
I’m surprised that with a higher focus on water-based traffic, environment and location, that Louisville wouldn’t be one of the largest cities, simply due to the fact it lies upon a natural stop in the Ohio River, along the falls of the Ohio, so water traffic *has* to stop there in order to go further down river. In a land where naval traffic is king, the essential porter/port city would become huge in no time at all
Simple reason the moutian tribes are near by and it's across the river, it would be a musical chairs of rulers.
The way you described the pacific northwest religion part is basically just how it is
Incessant border skirmishes with Deseret
“Patrolling the Mojave makes you wish for a Nuclear Winter...”
“Wait a damn minute, what the heck is a nuclear, and what the heck is a winter!?”
Hi Roman Catholic in seattle
@@501ststormtrooper9 winter season when it rains... No the other one when it rains. No, it's between those two.
what if gunpowder was known since the iron age and the tribes were able to make cannons and muskets
Alternative: What if gunpowder was never invented?
I guess bows would be more easily forgotten.
@@ZephLodwick alternatehistoryhub already did that
Well then Bronze Age cities wouldn’t survive 3 days lol
@Doug Sawyer big doubt
Louisiana becomes a powerful Caribbean trade empire, a Carthage of the new world.
Louisiana’s focus would also have to be inland though, unlike Carthage.
Nassau will rise again
Until somebody (Aztecs probably) bring some salt with them...
@@ShnoogleMan Louisiana will serve as the gateway to the Caribbean
@@demarcomixon True, but if it were to engage in empire building, it’s primary focus would probably be on the mainland up the Mississippi River, where it would see the most similar cultures and be the most vulnerable to attack. Only after securing a substantial portion of the Lower Mississippi and Gulf Coast would it expand south.
unironically this sounds like every fantasy anime world ever.
I don't remember fantasy anime worlds utilizing Mongol-like steppe cavalry with tactics, maritime empires, and goat-herding cultures...
@@vistagreat9994 then find some better animes to watch, noob
@@mattehwizard1979 yeah you're right i don't really watch anime
@@mattehwizard1979 examples then please?
@@LANSl0t you
Northern British Columbia in our timeline were essentially Vikings, with groups like the Haida raiding groups all the way down to California. So if anyone would be Vikings and Scandinavia of North American it would be northern bc
Actually there's a high norse presence throughout the area. Small wonder all the fjords and inlets probably remind them of home
Yeah in this timeline the tlinget haidia or whoever takes their place would be the vikings of this region they already kind of Were they just lack the technology to do Viking level the tlingets fucked up the Gulf of Alaska already and th Haida were also powerful but they could never really Penetrate southeast Alaska there'd tolltaly fuck up British Columbia I'm not really sure about the shimsian but those guys ain't that important compared to the Tlinget or Haidia
New England were the vikings on the East coast aswell (in this Alt hist)
You should do a geopolitics/alternate history of “What If Pangea Never Broke Apart?” Basically would we be fighting or more United? (Philly having Western Sahara & Mauritania as neighbors, and Australia being 30 mins from LA).
Shit would be crazy
I'll add my 2 cents:
I'm not a fan of videos like this one, or your suggestion. The forces that would have to changed for that to happen are basically physics. It stops becoming alt-history, and starts becoming fantasy/magic.
Same as this video, how did the Europeans get there? I can't ignore plotholes like those. Alas, just one man's opinion.
Islam would take over the world, since Pangaea was a desert.
@@demun6065 when you think about it, Christopher Columbus’ three ships weren’t terribly far removed from medieval technology.
We would still be very divided.
Lets assume that homo sapiens (and all other species) still evolved.
Compare (pre colonial) Cambodia with the UK. Both being very different culturally and genetically
Bare in mind that Oceans aren't the only border. Mountains, deserts, and Jungles/forests can be just as much barriers.
India vs China
Tunisia vs Ghana
etc.
Speaking of which, Northwestern and western pangea were blocked off by mountains was likely mostly desert.
So think of these two regions as North Africa (Berbers) and Arabia (Arabs).
Southern Pangea had a wide variety of biomes, and was cut of from the rest of the north via mountains. Meaning the human cultures might be more along the lines of Eurasia (vastly different despite being on the same continent).
Lastly there was the southern part of the eastern north which was mostly jungle. Meaning the culture might resemble the Congo, Amazon, or Southeast Asia.
Source: Atlas Pro
I love this concept. Is their any inspiration from the After the end mod for Crusader kings?
But after the end didnt have texas as horde state which is actually a bit weird now to think about it
I love that mod in CK2
What would a Medieval America be Like?
just read After the End lore
based post
@@ninjajuggernog5865 based reply
Haha, same. I really love after the end, even if I think that the Old World version is better (Stalinist feudal monarchy goes burrrrrr)
I wonder who this "doodlebot" fellow is and if he is a active member of the ATE community.....
become TIMUR TAMERLANE AMERICA
Seeing the most prosperous kingdoms being in the great lakes makes for a very weird situation.
They are essentially a water based civilization that's actually landlocked without access to the world oceans.
That's the thing with having the worlds largest lakes on your continent.
But don't rivers lead out to the Gulf of St. Lawrence?
Sorta but the St Lawrence is very treacherous (french explorers were famously halted by rapids after Montreal.) And the Niagara falls cut the lakes from the river.
Nowadays a seried of locks allow for the flow of boats in the lakes and the St-Lawrence but then it would have been harder.
Mongol Horde fused with American Cowboys.
If it is also set in space, it could be a new space genre?
Anarcho Frontierism time!
Mongol Space Cowboys sounds like a cult classic that needs to be made
Honestly sounds a lot like the Mandalorians in Star Wars.
Mongol Cossack Space Cowboy colonies fighting soviet teletubby mecha pilots financed by Neoliberal economic policies
Hordes of the Great Plains vs Crusaders of deseret. That would be lit.
Today on Whatifalthist, I learned why my city (San Bernardino) shouldn’t exist.
today on Whatifalthist, I learned that SoCal shouldn't exist.
Guess I'm stuck as a san fran. vassal state...
Considering its California, the cesspool of the U.S...I think it's a bit more than San Bernadino that shouldn't exist. Still praying Californians STAY in California and stop corrupting and making every other state as filthy and disgusting as it is. Or if they can't keep to their own little mudpuddle...that the whole damn state sinks to the bottom of the ocean.
In before Wohendum started equating the bad policies of California with every individual that lives in the state.
I always thought this argument was funny like a carton of spoilt milk. Yes, I agree that this state is sh#t and that the corruption and party intrenchment is horrible for internal cohesion. But you do know that there's more than just a fek load of liberals here, right? While conservatives are a "minority" overall, theres still millions of em in california. To say something akin to "all californians should stay in their mudpuddle or have the state fall into the sea" is ignorant of the overall situation here and geopolitically for the migration out of the state.
Oh and before you call me a liberal, I'm a god fearing conservative buddy.
San Bernardino is where my grandpa landed when he crossed the border under a train from Mexico
I found out I’m a Viking!
Lowkey my favorite channel along with Kings and Generals. Keep it up
I really hope you make a series out of this. It's so cool
play After the end for ck2
I have wondered about this so long. Every time I go by a flat-top hill in southern Ohio, I think--hmm, in the Middle Ages there would be a castle there.
I feel the same way when i visit my family in Westminster, MD. McDaniel College would definitely be the town castle. It is on a hill, right in the center of town. I even redesigned it to be a castle once.
please make a part 2 of this. This is probably the most interest topic for me
Didn't expect this to be a thing, MORE PLEASE
I would add Quebec city and Montreal to the 40 biggest cities since they geography position is very good even if the winters would be harsh
They’d probably be equivalent to the Russians of our timeline with massive tundras and grasslands at their borders forcing them to push far far far west of they wanted to avoid attacks by nomads.
@@Bogfrog1 Sorry i'm not sure i understand?
@@Bogfrog1 like a russia if russia got to have the strategic superpossition of romania being able to dictate whole areas of trade, so basically egypt
@@TheWizardGamez wouldn't the entirety of canada work like this. Giant unending plains, or insane mountains. Dont forget the most rivers per km squared. (They are every where)
You should do a video on Doggerland, that one landmass in the North Sea that got wiped out by the tsunami caused by a Norwegian landslide, if I remember correctly. It could make an interesting scenario.
There is two important alternate history scenarios.
1. Greater Doggerland:
At its greatest extent, the region connected the British Isle and the Scandinavian Peninsula to mainland Europe.
Large, plentiful Riverlands would form like Eastern Europe. Except the warm ocean current from the Mexican Gulf would make it warmer.
Doggerland is part of Indefensible European plane. And therefore several seafaring nations wouldn’t form. Conversely Denmark and the Netherlands would probably get replaced by numerous lesser seafaring nations.
Europe is often divide into four 'unconquerable' corners. Napoleon proved that Italy wasn’t unconquerable. And to a lesser extent also Spain. But the British Isle was always out of reach. Even if you got passed the sea, an army would still be waiting on the other side. Eastern Europe is almost the exact opposite. You can continuously conquer and conquer new land. But no one besides the Russian Empire has managed to conquer all the way towards the Ural Mountains. I suspect that in this timeline Europe would resemble India. A large and diverse subcontinent that has continuously been conquered completely only to fall apart again and again.
2.Lesser Doggerland:
This is an Isle located between Jutland, England and the Low Countries. Probably seafaring. Perhaps a number of Friesen kingdoms would form and be united only for the isle to fight off rivaling naval powers. After centuries of disputable independence, they would probably become part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Ireland and Doggerland.
Although the will Probably be Friesland or little Frisia.
Doggerland not being flooded requires lowering the sea level of literally the entire planet. It's wild thinking how much ancient coastline and human history is buried beneath the waves.
Dutch clay
That is dutch clay and we will reclaim it eventually
@@erikthomsen4768 I've often wondered why there has never been any serious attempt, probably a joint English/Dutch/ Danish attempt to reclaim the Dogger Bank. The Dutch alone have managed to establish whole provinces by the creation of the polders, and similar work on a lesser scale in the Fens of eastern England.
@@mikesaunders4775 Oh it is rather simple. Practically speaking we doesn’t need more land. Some formerly inhabited territories like Utland has become a cultural and world heritage site. The Wadden Sea is not paticulary obstructive for the locals. And frankly it has become a desirable bathing area.
You mentioned my southern neighbor. The Dutch does occasionally create new islands and other landforms. But the previous need simply isn't there. Markermeer Lake and IJsselmeer Lake could easily become new provinces. But the only people who have a serious interest in the possibility are the environmentalist who oppose it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthlande
this channel motivated me to go draw my own fantasy map using geopolitic as that basis, but seeing the complexity of this I'm really getting the sense there's too much I don't know for my own projects dang
I can imagine a sort of roman empire form around the great lakes, like it did around the midterranian.
New Orleans would be either like a hot Netherlands, getting rich off the river trade, or be an asset passed around by the great powers surrounding it.
I can’t imagine a world where New Orleans doesn’t exist.
Although there is one problem.
If it wasn’t for modern day technology the mouth of the Mississippi would have moved by now, leaving New Orleans without its River.
@@Kaiserboo1871 Would a different city further upriver, like Baton Rouge or Shreveport, take its place? One whose port would be affected by the drifting of the Mississippi's mouth?
@@X525Crossfire Actually I just looked it up. It turns out the reason why New Orleans River wants to move is because of a manmade creation further up the river. Something called Shreve's Cut. So without that the Mississippi River would flow normally.
Therefore, New Orleans wouldn’t need to move and would still be the Gibraltar of America.
New Orleans wouldn't exist. It would merely be a series of tribes. It's too swampy and hot for a big city to form before modern technology
Cowboy horse archers are something I never knew I needed but now I know
Complete with the "legolas" arrow magazine to make it a six shooter.
York vs Lancaster with Hatfield vs McCoy. I can imagine that in a medieval America.
I can see monarchs with names like Clinton and Reagan
Lol
@@TheSkyGuy77 I can imagine a king named Trump, the Orange-Skinned
@@abcdef27669The House of Orange
@@abcdef27669
The Orange Man of New York
Even though people tend to think the Hatfields and McCoys were a bunch of uneducated hill-folk, that's really not true. Both families were active in regional politics. Governor Henry Hatfield of West Virginia was the nephew of "Devil Anse" Hatfield, the leader of the Hatfield family. The Hatfields also owned a large lumber company too. The McCoy home was the sight of local polling place and was on a 300 acre farm. It also didn't help that the McCoys were pro-Union and the Hatfields were pro-Confederate during the ACW.
I would love it if you continued with this and dive into each region! But then again, I just love your content in general, and I will enjoy anything you throw my way.
I personally live in Montana in the general area of Flathead lake, and would be interesting in the implications of the scenario in the western Montanans northern Idaho area.
@@cadenmasa3451 Californian my whole life. Very weird to imagine it becoming a maritime empire - wonder if it'd be most similar to the Vikings, Italians, or Malay of our world.
@@perrytran9504 probably more similar to the Italians like Venice and Genoa. High amounts of wealth and prosperity combined with relatively low land size sounds like Venice to a T
play after the end for crusader kings 2. basically this but in game form
@@atm1947 Now that you mention it, there's also the Mediterranean climate and mountain border.
"Pacific Northwest would be in a really advantageous position"
Everyone in Portland, San Francisco, and Seattle: 😃
Everyone literally more than 150 km inland when they really realize Portland, San Francisco, and Seattle will be in charge: 😰
Y'all gotta remember BC and Vancouver Island, we are the heart of the Pacific Northwest
San Francisco won't be in charge. The Golden Gate will, however, be of serious strategic importance to the great cities of the Central Valley.
But they wouldn't be the same cities we all despise now. They would be much more socially conservative like the surrounding rural populations.
The Emberverse book series actually matches up with this to a large degree
Another medieval america book is A Canticle for Leibowitz. It follows the 1000 year history of a post apocalyptic america, from the nuclear war until a new renaissance.
I've been thinking about this for months now, and I consider it absolutely fascinating! I was EXTREMELY pleasantly surprised when I saw this video from you. I would love to discuss this with you sometime in discord or elsewhere, this topic has always been incredibly intriguing to me.
One fairly significant problem in your analysis of the Pacific Northwest: the Willamette Valley of Oregon. Its the reason people flocked to the Oregon Territory in the 1830's and 40's. It is one of the most productive and easy to farm regions on the planet, without the irrigation and droughts of the California central valley. In short, whomever controls the Willamette will come to control most of 'Cascadia' including the Puget Sound (which has crappy farmland other than a few pockets here and there, resulting in lots of fishing villages and loggers), and the Yakima/Columbia valley east up the Columbia. Remember, there's a reason Oregon became a state 50 years before Washington. Imagine if you will, a feudal farming region with annual crop surpluses, able to project power from behind some of the best natural ramparts anywhere ( the Cascades and the Rockies). While I agree the PNW will be separate and weird from the rest of North America, I think you've missed where the center of power on the West Coast would be.
I feel like New England would be like anglo saxon England where they're independent kingdoms but there's an overlord setting an example for the other kings
I absolutely implore you to make more videos like this!!!! It was absolutely fascinating from start to finish and I am completely impressed by both your knowledge of history and your alternate history analysis! ABSOLUTELY PERFECT! Bravo!
2nd Amendment: The right to bear swords
I think it would be awesome to do a series on this starting from the very beginning and leading up to the modern day. I know that isnt exactly your thing, but I really think you got the mind for it. Great video!
play after the end for ck2
Probably the most interesting scenario I’ve seen.
At 14:32 you missed an important trade route, the Hudson/Mohawk/Champlain Coridor. Even without the Erie Canal, Onida Lake would still connect with Lake Ontario.
He also technically missed that the Ohio River is split down the middle by the Falls of the Ohio, which necessitated the water-bound cargo be taken over land to the lower end of the Ohio, before the locks & dams were installed. As such, a town such as New Albany or Louisville, which is situated upon said midpoint, would be critical within a medieval societ.
It would be interesting to see youre thoughts on Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean in this alternate scenerio.
I feel like Mexico would be kind of like pre British india where it’s divided by many different countries due to its mountainous terrain and the ability for outsiders to invade from texas Central America or even cuba. I wonder if cuba would be like a second uk and if it would then I’d love to see the u.k. Cuban naval arms race
@Mr Vespucci a.k.a Mega Nite Aztecs and Incas did fight, but most medieval Wars in the American continent were not recorded.
To Whatifalthist,
this is your best video imo. I f'in love this concept of "Medieval United States" and would be riveted if you could make more on the kingdoms and cultures of this fictional world.
It reminds me of Fallout New Vegas' NCR or Caesars Legion.
Keep up the great work
Today I learned your name is Rudyard. 😂🤣
But that is actually very cool
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition”
~ Rudyard Kipling
I've been writing a novel set in a world very much like this. 100k words in so far! Cool to see others playing with the idea.
You may want to look up a book called "Lord Kalven of Otherwhen" by H Beam Piper.
i would like to read that pls release it
Please release it!
I don’t want more of this content, I NEED more.
This is one of my favorite videos made by you. I’m sad that it never blossomed into a full series.
Also Acadia in south Louisiana could be its own region as it Culturally has been separate for years, as staunch Catholics and French speaking it would separate them from the rest of Louisiana
Disagree. The Cajuns came from further up North and were displaced by the anglo-Americans. In this timeline, with castle technology there's no way such a displacement would occur and Acadia would never exist.
Def need more videos on this topic. New England vikings? San Franciscan Trade Empire? American West Horde Horsemen? Say no more.
Washingtonian here, central Washington is a vast natural irrigation area that farms don’t require (depending on plant) industrial hydroponics. The Columbia’s basin and Palouse are bisected by many rivers and I believe would be distinctly different than the mountain ranges to its east and west (Rockies and cascades)
I had the same thoughts about Baltimore but I mean I guess we don’t get any say.
"Map of the greatest thing holding you back from a greater position in the world."
-Lack of will.
Why you gotta call me out like that ?
This is a gem, I might use this concept for a book
Call out to all my fellow Ozark Tribesmen, the scourges of Louisiana!
I feel like Crowley's Ridge would be a good mix of Good warriors from Ozarks and good traders from the Mississippi. Also louisiana would probably become the egypt of this world
HAHA! Pillage the weak plantationmen of the river! Scourges of Louisiana! Bane of the Mississippi!
I never thought I needed this. But I do. Would love to see a series about each civilization
I think this is by far my favorite video you have ever done
The Texan equivalent of the Mongol Empire would be the best thing I could ever witness
*happy cowboy noises*
@@AbdulGoodLooks *happy throat singing cowboy noises
Now I want a series based on the Middle-American Horde, featuring the sacking of St. Louis.
I'm begging you to turn this into a series please
I really enjoy that he makes other content. This is by far one of my favorite channels. Keep doing the things you do Whatif!
FUCK YEAH!!!
To add to this medieval vibe...
What if Emperor Norton’s God given title as emperor of the United States of America was recognized?
As an Oregonian... I shudder at a Californian at the helm of the Ship of State...
Emperor Nortan vs The Holy Regent of Florida Rick Scott
play after the end for ck2 basically this scenario
Yes! Make this a series.
It is impossible. But as long as it is announced as such, there is nothing wrong with indulging in fun topics.
I agree
I so badly want to read the novel series set in this world
please turn this into a series
This may be one of the most cursed scenarios yet
Anime Japanese Empire.
Everything is Anime.
The background, the people, the everything.
Even the damn LEADERS.
Blursed.
As an Arkansasan I'm very interested in this world... I'll practice my throat singing
Or if you're in the Ozarks. You better practice your yodeling to become the Switzerland of America.
@@sweden7675 I think were more like estonians since we have to pay tribute to the texas mongols to live
@@actually_a_circle Yeah. Doesn't Arkansas have alot of folk legends? If so, then that's another similarity.
@@sweden7675 oh yeah most do usually the different peoples have their own stories. We have superstitions too. Like you never close someone else's knife, if you open the knife you close it or it's bad luck
I had been thinking about writing a book that takes place in a medieval setting in a land based on North America as opposed to being another copy/paste of Europe. This should help guide the world building a little more.
Just find a legitimate way that Europe had a need for mass emigration, and that they chose America over other areas. Plus you need to make naval technology happen a lot earlier.
I like ur idea, make videos about what u have so far or about the book or something i wanna hear more ✊
@@qwejxkwbdk yeah, I'm willing to help more. I just wanna be alerted if he turns it into a book tho.
play after the end for ck2 it is literally this same scenario
2:46 castles don't lead to disunity, they lead to being cool as fuck.
0:19 As an El Pasoan, this is one of my favorite alt maps ever
Kingdom of Cascadia! The Carthage of the Pacific North West!
I claim the title of Duke of the West Hills!
Duchy of Portlandia aka London of Cascadia
@@subgum3403 (singing) "London Bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down. London bridge is falling down, on the hipsters."
*Y E S*
@@point_decascadia Cascadians unite!
I mean if you ever looked up the series "Lords of America" or "The Patriotic Columbian Empire" on Reddit, it's been tried before!
Can you do a Future of European Geopolitics? I think it would be cool.
The geopolitics at play here are really interesting, would definitely love to see a full alt history scenario based on this.
Might seem like a weird suggestion but... What would eastern Europe be like if the eastern Germanic people maintained a strong presence in the area after the Hun invasion?
Me: I'm going to get to bed on time and have a productive day tomorrow.
Whatifalthist:
We need a "What would a Medieval Latin America be Like?"
See medieval Aragon or Castile.
@@LordBLB See current timeline, but with more swords/spears/shields and less guns.
A still largely ''commodities explorer/exporter'' based economy with few oligarchs controlling large portions of the fertile land; Cities that flower unplanned according with rural migrations filled with small businesses of tradesman, artisans and other services; The existence of basically full on personal armies under service of those rich land owners (most with ties with the government, when not officials themselves) to protect them in, essentially, houses that look like fortresses; Large amount of a semi-educated population without land or homes of their own, be it on the field or city, whose lives only matter to the rulers when it's time to pay lip service... Woah it will be really hard to think how a medieval LATAM would look like...
You just got to remove the XXI century tech (when it's not just XX tech) and make a few adjustments on a XVIII political structure.
Don't @ me, I'm from Latin America, you guys know it's true.
They'd be more indigenous and less Latin, probably; the Spanish and Portuguese were very good about coöpting local aristocracy and creating Mestizo communities. The _bandeirantes_ of Brazil were almost to a man mixed-race Portuguese-Amerind and spoke Old Tupi rather than Portuguese; these would probably develop the coast into feudal societies similar to Iberia and from there slooooooowly conquer the forest tribes inland. Argentina and Uruguay would be in the same situation, but probably with some more tendency to cattle herding.
In the Andes, assuming the Spanish were able to conquer the Incan empire, they would still probably adopt most of the cultural practices of the Quechua and Aymara (as they did in the real world, to a great extent) and in a few generations we might have some successful rebellion by the local aristocracy and have the Incan Empire restored, but now Catholic.
In the Amazon basin, we might have some small outposts a bit along the Amazon, but otherwise the natives would be left to their own devices to practise primitive subsistence farming supplemented by hunting and gathering, as they did in our world.
Central America and Southern Mexico would probably be mostly indigenous, possibly converted to Catholicism as this was a very big motivation for Spain and Portugal's American efforts. If so, it would probably be a very syncretic form of Catholicism, however.
Regarding central and northern Mexico, it could be that Cortez would still have beaten the Aztecs, but if so they would have probably simply been replaced by one of the Nahua states like Tlaxcala, possibly initially as a formal vassal of Castille, and then eventually as a ruler of the area (hopefully less alienating of their vassals as the Aztecs were). Again, Catholicism might make some inroads here to obviate the need for Flower Wars and create a stabler Mexico valley, probably still Nahuatl-speaking.
It'd be Aztec and Inca. Come on did we all forget about pre-Columbian Americas all at once?
As a San Antonian, San Antonio being in that location made my night. Thank you sir 😂
This was absolutely fascinating! I agree that the Great Lakes and Mississippi River are the key to the continent for Medieval era technology. If Chicago were able to construct something similar to the modern Chicago Sanitary Canal (around 30 miles), it would be a game changer and center them in an Great Lakes / Mississippi version of the Hanseatic League (the Stecknitz Canal of the 14th century in Lubeck / Hamburg is 60 miles, so this would be quite possible and it was already a portage site for the Illinois and Miami tribes). Another important portage is between the Fox and Wisconsin Rivers near Portage, Wisconsin, connecting Green Bay / Lake Winnebago / Oshkosh to the northern Mississippi. Southwestern Wisconsin (known as the Driftless Area) was spared by glaciers and the terrain is less passable for marauding Western tribes but still very fertile and biodiverse, so might be important trade partners to the other Great Lakes regions. Another critical trade partner / rival would be the western shores of Lake Erie, with Toledo, Detroit, and the inland crossroads of Fort Wayne (part of the Erie and Iroquois tribal lands). I also think Cahokia (St. Louis) would be revived as a very important city in times of stability and unless Cairo could manage flooding, perhaps Paducah to the east would be another trade center (this was an anchor in what was generally Shawnee territory.) If these few hubs cooperated through trade or were held together by similar languages and religion, I think they could build strong enough city defenses against the Great Plains, and maybe manage some western river ports / fortresses like Kansas City, Omaha, or Minneapolis. If the Ohio / Illinois / Michigan kingdoms held each other in check through diplomacy and intermarriage, they would flourish, if they fought each other -- it would be the the Hundred Years War over and over. In times of peace the trade routes through the St. Lawrence to the northeast and Baton Rouge / New Orleans to the south would connect them to potential markets for refined products and if they had improved river and road navigation, and eventually tapped into the minerals that made the modern Rust Belt, they might build powerful industrial cities comparable to medieval Ghent, Brugge, or Cologne.
I love this idea, and would be glad to watch more about it