Respect to KillerBee for putting their design through this level of scrutiny. I wasn’t convinced it would be a success as it doesn’t address sloshing in the sump at all, however it takes outside the box thinking to drive developments forward and for that they deserve credit. Thanks again to you for doing all this legwork on the behalf of the community.
@@900BRZ I actually see it as a positive in some sense. It points to a more “traditional” fix being the way to go, which means there’s no fundamental design error. Most engines require sump baffling, especially Subaru boxers. I think it’s far better to have the “standard problem” then having to go above and beyond to sort the issue
If I’ve learned anything from this video, it’s that this dude is the next BRZ wizard, mad respect for all the work you’re doing, we need more people like you in the car community!
I commend both you and Killer B for taking an academic approach to this issue. A lot of these companies will throw a product on shelves and say "oh, it *should* work!" but Killer B is actually doing GOOD analysis on this. Meanwhile, Subaru and Toyota seem to want to sweep under the rug judging by how their response was to reiterate how the cars are "road cars".
As a former WRX owner who went through two EJs due to similar oiling problems (and spun bearings), I really hope you're able to get to the bottom of this and provide a fix for the FRS/BRZ enthusiasts. IMO, it's ridiculous that Subaru didn't learn their lessons from the EJ motors to make the FAs more resistant to this. Anyway, fantastic work; I hope you find a solution soon!
We don’t actually have proof that it’s fixed in the WRX. There is one person who claims he has tested it on Reddit but he provides no data to substantiate the claim.
Really appreciate you doing this and sharing the honest results. Also the thoroughness of your tests really needs to be commended. This is not easy to test and you are doing an outstanding job controlling the variables
This issue is currently holding me back from purchasing a BRZ. The whole point of these cars is to be a fun little track car. Might have to keep my evo for longer
@KTH96 except ive had mine for 13 years, its 25 years old with 115k km and many many track days without a problem. All these are less than a year old with minimal kms and are spinning bearings.
If you are going to upspec the brakes,( which if you are going to have to do if you don’t want to constantly boil the fluid…) it’s not that hard to bolt on an aftermarket pan and oil pickup…
@@Blballerboy some are just diehard enthusiasts of the car. From reasonable arguments such as track specific conditions such as elevation and temperature and just negate the issue by installing a baffle (hence the video) to absurb claims such as him being fraudulent with his results and doing this for clout. But its reddit, what do you expect.
Big respect for all the effort to bring the community this data and testing. With this systematic approach, it's only a matter of time before a reliable solution is found, so thanks so much.
You [and all those helping you with this] are awesome! Thanks for all your time and money toward this car. This is again another reason I love the BRZ/GR86 community. Solution focused people willing to invest in keeping these cars alive and well!
Awesome video, love the academic approach. Really unfortunate that Subaru isn’t doing anything to address this when there’s clearly an issue. Once you come up with a solution I’m sure many of us will jump on board
It seems that Toyota are the ones who are stonewalling, as Subaru made the engine to their specs and Toyota signed off on it. Toyota are the one’s telling people to take a hike, from the look of the chatter, whereas Subaru are actually attempting to deal with their customers around it, but Toyota are restricting them,( because if Subaru offers a fix, like a pan change, then it’s an admission and Toyota will be obliged to do the same, and they don’t want to!). It’s an interesting dynamic to watch play out.
Hey man, even though I saw your post a few days ago i was still waiting for this video to come out. Very interesting to see that the pressure is lower across the board with the prefilter. I really hope that next results will be more promissing. I really think keeping the oil in the pan is the way to go, you can see that as soon as the car is turning to the right the pressure drops, which means that the oil is escaping the pan and not only being stuck at the top of the engine (at this temperature the oil should have no issue going back to the pan). I cannot wait for further testing ! Thanks for the quality content man 👍
Huge props to Killer B for this one and allowing us to see the data and how products don’t always work as intended. This has me wondering if there was ever any tests like this done for EJ25 engines to see if the oil baffles actually help with oil pressure or not. Great video
The first thing I noticed was the oil pressure was almost 10psi lower. But I'm not too worried about the rtv. Once we apply it ourselves, I'm fairly certain the rtv won't be an issue. What catches my eye is even with the baffle, in some turns, you can see pressure drops earlier than with one on. My question is if these drops are significant enough, can we use the tomei baffle as a foundation and build upon there. Even on gentle curves this baffle proved to be a hindrance. The tomei baffle at least allowed the oil pressure to stay higher for gentle right turns and S turns. It's a thought, but I'm not the expert here.
We can definitely combine horizontal baffles with this one, but I would have wanted to see at least some improvement before trying that. As it is my plan is to remove this one altogether and then try out a different approach.
When trying overfill. Do it about 2/3 ~ 1qt. + baffling. That is how we keep these engines intact during insane track days + sprint event of full beating 30 mins.
Our 2023 is still sitting in the garage with 500 miles on it since we got it new. Wife's fun car so doesn't get driven much. Thank you for all this testing and info. Hopefully something comes out soon that fixes this right turn issue.
Have you considered starting a gofundme so that we as the community can support your testing? I'm sure lots of people (myself included) would send some money your way to pay for the track days, parts, labor, etc. This is great stuff and we all want more ASAP.
I really appreciate that. Yes, I am considering this. I want to make sure I have reasonable expectations set before doing this because I don’t have a timeline on further testing at this point. More funds would likely allow me to move faster though.
This is such a beautiful video. Great info and like no hubris just pure facts and even admittance that the test may not be perfect. I am now subscribing to this channel. Good job my friend
Thank you for these updates. Bummer about the killer b baffle but the win here is the systematic way in which you are working toward a solution. It’s the kind of R&D that Subaru should have done in the first place. I am far from knowledgeable on the subject of oiling and flows but if the oil is pooling to the left and not the right, I wonder if a design with strategically located vertical plates could do the job?
Even though I dont own a GR/BRZ, I love how much detail you put into these videos. Hope you find a solution soon, and maybe even compare oil pressure with the EJ platform?
If it's not a baffle issue, I wonder if the problem is caused by oil pooling up somewhere else in the motor or a restriction causing the oil level in the pan to drop. Excellent video and props to Killer B!
This video just disproves the hypothesis behind one very unique baffle design. I still have hope for some other baffle designs. More testing coming in the future.
Great video, really well presented testing. Also, thanks for actually writing the English subs for the CC button, because they are accurate, and I can't always be sure just by listening what some of the words are, especially with terminology that is very specific or place names that I'm not familiar with. Usually an English speaking video maker won't bother to write accurate English subs. So in those cases I'll usually try "English auto generated" or "Auto Translate" and after I've had a few laughs about how bad they are I'll probably just turn them off. Because the "auto" thingie can't understand everything that is said any better than I can. So anyway thanks for putting the real words in there in writing.
Thank you for taking the time to analyze this and work towards a solution! and being unbiased with companies even though they are sending you prototypes. will definitely be following this series.
I hope that Subaru and Toyota/Gazoo are watching these videos. This is the type of factory testing that should have happened prior to production, but I hope the manufacturers are conducting them now!!! It seems like the marketing guys (especially at Toyota) got a little ahead of the proverbial skis in touting the GR86 as track tested. You have produced well thought out and designed studies controlling for as many confounding factors as possible. I look forward to future installments. In the meantime, I guess I will be sticking to roads that only turn left.
The work you are doing on this is fantastic! Thank you for bringing a data-driven approach to this issue. Any thoughts on when the next test will be live?
Many thanks for these excellent video's, much appreciated. Very interested to see what's next. Greetings from the Nordschleife (awesome track to drive these cars).
seriously awesome work. While I don't have a second gen I really appreciate the hard work you're putting into this issue. This is the kind of stuff that makes the twin community so great. With that said I'll bring up what I mentioned on your last video. After looking closer at the shape and layout of the oil pan I still believe the issue is the asymmetrical oil pan and pickup favoring the passenger side. I'm pretty sure the best solution will be a vertical walled baffle that runs front to back to prevent sloshing towards the driver side. That's not to say a horizontal baffle isn't needed either but I think the car needs a system like what IAG builds for WRX's. As for your idea of over filling, I feel like this may alleviate some of the pressure drops but then you might run into more issues with excessive blow by. I'm guessing 1/2 quart might be ok but much beyond that I'd worry assuming you don't have a horizontal baffle to keep the oil from sloshing up into the the upper oil pan / block girdle area. It might be a good idea to see if KillerB will do a horizontal and vertical baffle system combined with a little more oil. Though it would be good to measure the volume of the stock oil pan and keep the oil fill to what will fit in the pan.
Great ideas and I’m thinking something similar. I’m interested in the Kazama baffle, which has a horizontal wall with a 1-way trap door to try and keep oil near the pickup. I’m a little concerned that unless it’s welded in it may lose too much oil around the edges on the vertical section.
Can't stress how important your personal work is to the community, and a personal thank you, as I want to get an FA24 (Beyond my Outback Wilderness with it's FA24T as that doesn't really count lol), to replace my STI, and this has been of concern to me.
Brian, thanks to you and your group for the testing and public results. Im most looking forward to seeing results for a vertical baffle design like Kazama or Jun Auto. Subscribed and eagerly awaiting future videos
What a legend. If you figure this problem out and you or someone else makes a product to fix it then i'm going to do a more financialy intelligent decision and buy a gr86 instead of a supra
Thank you for all you are doing. I have a GR86 on order to be a fun weekend car with track and autox in mind. Wanting a fix for this has been something I have been searching for and good to know there are other enthusiast working on some solutions. Subscribed and looking forward to some positive designs and results soon.
I really appreciate you doing all of this meticulous testing so maybe one day I can take my GR86 to the track without worring and can just focus on having a good time made it a very easy decision for my sub to the channel!
I was surprised to see lower oil pressure, since the oil pump seems to be in constant pressure relief above 4500 rpm or so. I would say that the suction pressure of the oil pump must be increased (i.e. more vacuum pressure at the pump inlet) in order to see lower gauge pressure at the outlet when the pump in in pressure relief. High suction vacuum pressure is typically caused by inlet restriction (therefore probably the pre-filter in this case). Ideally suction pressure shouldn't be more than a couple of psi of vacuum. A 10 psi drop in suction pressure would probably be enough to cause cavitation and reduced flow. There's a paper describing this called "Modelling approach on a Gerotor pump working in cavitation conditions". In your last video you show two oil pressure sensors. Which sensor is showing the pressure we seeing on screen and where exactly is it connected?
Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I’m with you thinking it’s the pre-filter causing this issue. I’m going to double check my oil cooler hoses to make sure there are no other restrictions, but the cooler was not touched between these two tests, so it’s unlikely. My car is instrumented at the OE pressure switch location.
What baffles are you thinking about experimenting with between GReddy, Tomei, and Ansix? From what I've read GReddy is supposed to prevent some oil from going into the timing chain cover (though after your video that seems less of a selling point), the Tomei cannot fit the KillerB pre-strainer, and the Ansix utilizes the flaps which KillerB dislikes in a horizontal configuration. Edit: And thank you so much for providing such a thorough analysis of this issue. It wasn't long ago we all just thought it was excess RTV
I’m interested in the GReddy, but less so than I was before this test. We’ve seen good results with the SYMS baffle so far. Also interested in the Kazama design.
I wonder if an oil pick up extension can be added similar to the pre filter. Maybe even one that redirects the angle. Paired with a different pan. Need to get a camera in the pan while on a sweeper to see if the pickup is getting starved to begin with which is no easy task.
Thanks! We haven’t done any testing on the street, so it’s not clear. Some people have since recorded pressure gauges and not seen drops even in canyon runs, but the RPMs have been lower. If you’re not pushing 6K+ RPM in canyons, you’re unlikely to have an issue.
I love the twins, but with all the issue they have and the BRZ MT costing US$45k in my country (converted from PHP) the MX-5 seems to be the better buy. I appreciate the progress and the work you've done for the community though.
Great report. Sad news. But progress sits at the heels of many failures. Hope the standard trapdoor baffle idea works. Of course the extra quart might make all the differences.
I have a feeling its not related to the pickup. Looking at an engine breakdown of the FA20, it seems that oil is pumped along channels in the cover with a rotational pump moving it along. Im wondering if the shift in lateral G's causes starvation in these channels... Just a guess...
Yeah that would be interesting to see. I may do a car control clinic and we’d likely do that, but I do also fear that it would not be good for my bearings haha.
Thanks for the detailed work and analysis. Can we try overfilling by more than 1 qt? I think we can go 1.5 easy. I've done it with no detectable bad effects yet.
This is probably an stupid question but I'll ask anyway... did you try running the factory recommended 0w-20 oil weight? (apologies if this was already covered). This is great work btw, thanks.
At these temps, we’d see lower nominal pressures with 0W20, as the viscosity would be lower than with 5W30. Factory recommendation in hot climates, like Malaysia, is actually 5W30.
Hey I was looking into getting a 2022-23 86 and was pretty set on it until I was forwarded your previous video explaining the oil pressure drop. I don’t really plan to track the car hardly at all at the moment. Do you believe it’s unwise to go ahead and still make the purchase for just like daily driving and a little fun here and there on the road. I’m just curious if this is mainly a track problem or an overall driving issue? If anything knows I’d love to hear from you.
I haven’t done any testing on the street, but I believe you’d have to be pushing very hard to see it on street. Ultimately, everyone has to make the call based on their risk tolerance, but if the car is bone stock and mainly used on street, I’d expect the warranty to apply.
Yes, I decided to test these as a pair. But even if nominal pressures were lower, I would have expected to see some decrease in pressure drops if the baffle was helpful. I have to conclude that both are not helpful.
I run 5 and 3/4 quarts of 5w30, 9 track days with 1.3 sustained Gs on catalyst on 200TW RT660s and have not seen any oil foaming, change out every 3 track days (overkill? Maybe) but no baffle and no oil cooler
Respect to KillerBee for putting their design through this level of scrutiny. I wasn’t convinced it would be a success as it doesn’t address sloshing in the sump at all, however it takes outside the box thinking to drive developments forward and for that they deserve credit. Thanks again to you for doing all this legwork on the behalf of the community.
Agree, they had a good idea that was a zag when everyone else was zigging. But it didn’t play out this time.
@@900BRZ I actually see it as a positive in some sense. It points to a more “traditional” fix being the way to go, which means there’s no fundamental design error. Most engines require sump baffling, especially Subaru boxers. I think it’s far better to have the “standard problem” then having to go above and beyond to sort the issue
Yeah I see that argument for sure.
Even though the results are not ideal from a “I’d like my brz to lubricate properly” POV, this is an excellent process to watch
If I’ve learned anything from this video, it’s that this dude is the next BRZ wizard, mad respect for all the work you’re doing, we need more people like you in the car community!
I really appreciate this, please continue to keep us posted. Any steps we can take to increase the longevity of these engines is critical!
I commend both you and Killer B for taking an academic approach to this issue. A lot of these companies will throw a product on shelves and say "oh, it *should* work!" but Killer B is actually doing GOOD analysis on this. Meanwhile, Subaru and Toyota seem to want to sweep under the rug judging by how their response was to reiterate how the cars are "road cars".
Please do the PLM dual level oil baffle next. I really appreciate the work that you're doing. Glad to see a community building up around this car
PLM couldn't even figure out how to make a hood hinge for Skylines, I would not risk an engine on anything they make.
@@joshuaho3150 yeah PLM's exhaust piece fitment are shit as well. Will not use their stuff ever again.
I had high hopes for this, but that’s how stuff goes. Back to the drawing board and onto the next idea.
As a former WRX owner who went through two EJs due to similar oiling problems (and spun bearings), I really hope you're able to get to the bottom of this and provide a fix for the FRS/BRZ enthusiasts. IMO, it's ridiculous that Subaru didn't learn their lessons from the EJ motors to make the FAs more resistant to this. Anyway, fantastic work; I hope you find a solution soon!
The thing is Subaru actually has fixed it, the FA24F in the WRX doesn't have this issue.
@@KTH96yep, brz always feels like Subarus step child
@@KTH96so what's stopping us from using THAT oil pan? What's different?
We don’t actually have proof that it’s fixed in the WRX. There is one person who claims he has tested it on Reddit but he provides no data to substantiate the claim.
What's odd is the FA20 didn't have those problems
Really appreciate you doing this and sharing the honest results. Also the thoroughness of your tests really needs to be commended. This is not easy to test and you are doing an outstanding job controlling the variables
Killer B is the goats for open testing like this. Tells me they have faith in their final product. I'll grab one when it's finished.
As a brz owner, I can’t thank you enough for the work you done. Good job keep it up!
This issue is currently holding me back from purchasing a BRZ. The whole point of these cars is to be a fun little track car. Might have to keep my evo for longer
Ironic considering Evos have oil starvation issues as well lol
@KTH96 except ive had mine for 13 years, its 25 years old with 115k km and many many track days without a problem. All these are less than a year old with minimal kms and are spinning bearings.
Trust me, keep the Evo
If you need to replace the EVO, get a VB WRX. The FA24DIT is as good as a 4G63 in many ways. Only took Subaru 30 years....
If you are going to upspec the brakes,( which if you are going to have to do if you don’t want to constantly boil the fluid…) it’s not that hard to bolt on an aftermarket pan and oil pickup…
Thank you for this information and thank you for keeping your cool from all the hate on the GR86 sub reddit.
Haha all in a days work
Wait why were they hating on him?
@@Blballerboy some are just diehard enthusiasts of the car.
From reasonable arguments such as track specific conditions such as elevation and temperature and just negate the issue by installing a baffle (hence the video) to absurb claims such as him being fraudulent with his results and doing this for clout. But its reddit, what do you expect.
Good data. I run a GReddy on mine with .75qt overfill. Curious your findings with overfill data. Good stuff bud
Thank you for all the hard work you are doing for the community. ❤
This issue is the one thing stopping me from purchasing BRZ/86. Thanks for all your work and hopefully a solution is found soon
I dont even have one of these cars but im very interesting in watching the process of you guys figuring out the oiling system. Great videos guys!
Big respect for all the effort to bring the community this data and testing. With this systematic approach, it's only a matter of time before a reliable solution is found, so thanks so much.
Loving the scientific research behind your testing. I am grateful for your support to the community of GEN2 owners.
You [and all those helping you with this] are awesome! Thanks for all your time and money toward this car. This is again another reason I love the BRZ/GR86 community. Solution focused people willing to invest in keeping these cars alive and well!
@900BRZ FYI Amazon links in the description are broken. Thanks for the update, I really appreciate the straight forward, sober analysis.
Thank you, updated the links! Appreciate the comment.
Thank you for your sacrifice.
Thank you for this. Please keep us posted with all your findings. We appreciate it very much.
This dude just keeps dropping and delivering knowledge like he’s UPS…respect
Awesome video, love the academic approach. Really unfortunate that Subaru isn’t doing anything to address this when there’s clearly an issue. Once you come up with a solution I’m sure many of us will jump on board
It seems that Toyota are the ones who are stonewalling, as Subaru made the engine to their specs and Toyota signed off on it.
Toyota are the one’s telling people to take a hike, from the look of the chatter, whereas Subaru are actually attempting to deal with their customers around it, but Toyota are restricting them,( because if Subaru offers a fix, like a pan change, then it’s an admission and Toyota will be obliged to do the same, and they don’t want to!).
It’s an interesting dynamic to watch play out.
This guy gave the best presentations in school, I bet
Kudos for putting your engine on the line.
Hey man, even though I saw your post a few days ago i was still waiting for this video to come out. Very interesting to see that the pressure is lower across the board with the prefilter. I really hope that next results will be more promissing. I really think keeping the oil in the pan is the way to go, you can see that as soon as the car is turning to the right the pressure drops, which means that the oil is escaping the pan and not only being stuck at the top of the engine (at this temperature the oil should have no issue going back to the pan). I cannot wait for further testing ! Thanks for the quality content man 👍
Agree, thank you!
Brian, thanks for sharing all your findings. I am in the market for a BRZ to track. Watching this series.
This man is doing the lord’s work.
Operators
As track build GR86 owner, I really appreciated your persistence on trying to solve oil pressure issue.
Huge props to Killer B for this one and allowing us to see the data and how products don’t always work as intended. This has me wondering if there was ever any tests like this done for EJ25 engines to see if the oil baffles actually help with oil pressure or not. Great video
Appreciate the follow up and great data analysis!! 👌 Looking forward to more findings
The first thing I noticed was the oil pressure was almost 10psi lower. But I'm not too worried about the rtv. Once we apply it ourselves, I'm fairly certain the rtv won't be an issue. What catches my eye is even with the baffle, in some turns, you can see pressure drops earlier than with one on. My question is if these drops are significant enough, can we use the tomei baffle as a foundation and build upon there. Even on gentle curves this baffle proved to be a hindrance. The tomei baffle at least allowed the oil pressure to stay higher for gentle right turns and S turns. It's a thought, but I'm not the expert here.
We can definitely combine horizontal baffles with this one, but I would have wanted to see at least some improvement before trying that. As it is my plan is to remove this one altogether and then try out a different approach.
I don’t even have a BRZ but these videos have been very good watches and I’m excited to see the next videos
When trying overfill. Do it about 2/3 ~ 1qt. + baffling. That is how we keep these engines intact during insane track days + sprint event of full beating 30 mins.
Thanks for doing the work to gather the data and sharing it with the community.
Our 2023 is still sitting in the garage with 500 miles on it since we got it new. Wife's fun car so doesn't get driven much. Thank you for all this testing and info. Hopefully something comes out soon that fixes this right turn issue.
Thank you for your efforts in finding the cause and a solution
Thank you so much for testing this.
Have you considered starting a gofundme so that we as the community can support your testing? I'm sure lots of people (myself included) would send some money your way to pay for the track days, parts, labor, etc. This is great stuff and we all want more ASAP.
I really appreciate that. Yes, I am considering this. I want to make sure I have reasonable expectations set before doing this because I don’t have a timeline on further testing at this point. More funds would likely allow me to move faster though.
Yep some of us have helped out on this go around.
This is such a beautiful video. Great info and like no hubris just pure facts and even admittance that the test may not be perfect. I am now subscribing to this channel. Good job my friend
Thanks all for this important research. I hope this leads to a product that can fix the problem.
Thank you for these updates. Bummer about the killer b baffle but the win here is the systematic way in which you are working toward a solution. It’s the kind of R&D that Subaru should have done in the first place. I am far from knowledgeable on the subject of oiling and flows but if the oil is pooling to the left and not the right, I wonder if a design with strategically located vertical plates could do the job?
Even though I dont own a GR/BRZ, I love how much detail you put into these videos. Hope you find a solution soon, and maybe even compare oil pressure with the EJ platform?
Fantastic work! Thank you so much for your valuable time and effort!
If it's not a baffle issue, I wonder if the problem is caused by oil pooling up somewhere else in the motor or a restriction causing the oil level in the pan to drop. Excellent video and props to Killer B!
This video just disproves the hypothesis behind one very unique baffle design. I still have hope for some other baffle designs. More testing coming in the future.
Great video, really well presented testing. Also, thanks for actually writing the English subs for the CC button, because they are accurate, and I can't always be sure just by listening what some of the words are, especially with terminology that is very specific or place names that I'm not familiar with. Usually an English speaking video maker won't bother to write accurate English subs. So in those cases I'll usually try "English auto generated" or "Auto Translate" and after I've had a few laughs about how bad they are I'll probably just turn them off. Because the "auto" thingie can't understand everything that is said any better than I can. So anyway thanks for putting the real words in there in writing.
Glad someone appreciated that!
Thank you so much for the data analytical approach. I'm glued to this channel as I own a GR86 and knowledge is power
Thank you for taking the time to analyze this and work towards a solution! and being unbiased with companies even though they are sending you prototypes. will definitely be following this series.
I hope that Subaru and Toyota/Gazoo are watching these videos. This is the type of factory testing that should have happened prior to production, but I hope the manufacturers are conducting them now!!! It seems like the marketing guys (especially at Toyota) got a little ahead of the proverbial skis in touting the GR86 as track tested. You have produced well thought out and designed studies controlling for as many confounding factors as possible. I look forward to future installments. In the meantime, I guess I will be sticking to roads that only turn left.
Thank you. Agree on the marketing-reality mismatch here. They could do a lot of good just by being more generous with warranty coverage.
Excellent video, thanks. I'm both looking forward to seeing where this goes, and hoping you find a solution soon. Love the approach.
This is some real engineering being conducted! Love all the data
The work you are doing on this is fantastic! Thank you for bringing a data-driven approach to this issue. Any thoughts on when the next test will be live?
great video! thanks for doing the hard work. I hope we find a solution soon
Many thanks for these excellent video's, much appreciated.
Very interested to see what's next.
Greetings from the Nordschleife (awesome track to drive these cars).
seriously awesome work. While I don't have a second gen I really appreciate the hard work you're putting into this issue. This is the kind of stuff that makes the twin community so great.
With that said I'll bring up what I mentioned on your last video. After looking closer at the shape and layout of the oil pan I still believe the issue is the asymmetrical oil pan and pickup favoring the passenger side. I'm pretty sure the best solution will be a vertical walled baffle that runs front to back to prevent sloshing towards the driver side. That's not to say a horizontal baffle isn't needed either but I think the car needs a system like what IAG builds for WRX's.
As for your idea of over filling, I feel like this may alleviate some of the pressure drops but then you might run into more issues with excessive blow by. I'm guessing 1/2 quart might be ok but much beyond that I'd worry assuming you don't have a horizontal baffle to keep the oil from sloshing up into the the upper oil pan / block girdle area. It might be a good idea to see if KillerB will do a horizontal and vertical baffle system combined with a little more oil. Though it would be good to measure the volume of the stock oil pan and keep the oil fill to what will fit in the pan.
Great ideas and I’m thinking something similar. I’m interested in the Kazama baffle, which has a horizontal wall with a 1-way trap door to try and keep oil near the pickup. I’m a little concerned that unless it’s welded in it may lose too much oil around the edges on the vertical section.
Another great video, thanks for putting this data together!
Thanks for doing Subaru's work for us :)
This is getting super interesting
alot of people are talking about your video. idk who hasn't heard of it!
Great video! I feel like it’s a lesson for Toyota hopefully they will do a mass production 3 cylinder GR86 not just test cars.
Can't stress how important your personal work is to the community, and a personal thank you, as I want to get an FA24 (Beyond my Outback Wilderness with it's FA24T as that doesn't really count lol), to replace my STI, and this has been of concern to me.
Appreciate it!
I really like your data analysis approach. Awesome job, keep it up!
Brian, thanks to you and your group for the testing and public results. Im most looking forward to seeing results for a vertical baffle design like Kazama or Jun Auto. Subscribed and eagerly awaiting future videos
What a legend.
If you figure this problem out and you or someone else makes a product to fix it then i'm going to do a more financialy intelligent decision and buy a gr86 instead of a supra
Thank you for all you are doing. I have a GR86 on order to be a fun weekend car with track and autox in mind. Wanting a fix for this has been something I have been searching for and good to know there are other enthusiast working on some solutions. Subscribed and looking forward to some positive designs and results soon.
I really appreciate you doing all of this meticulous testing so maybe one day I can take my GR86 to the track without worring and can just focus on having a good time made it a very easy decision for my sub to the channel!
Appreciate this data and your testing result. keep up the good work. many thanks
I was surprised to see lower oil pressure, since the oil pump seems to be in constant pressure relief above 4500 rpm or so. I would say that the suction pressure of the oil pump must be increased (i.e. more vacuum pressure at the pump inlet) in order to see lower gauge pressure at the outlet when the pump in in pressure relief. High suction vacuum pressure is typically caused by inlet restriction (therefore probably the pre-filter in this case). Ideally suction pressure shouldn't be more than a couple of psi of vacuum. A 10 psi drop in suction pressure would probably be enough to cause cavitation and reduced flow. There's a paper describing this called "Modelling approach on a Gerotor pump working in cavitation conditions".
In your last video you show two oil pressure sensors. Which sensor is showing the pressure we seeing on screen and where exactly is it connected?
Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I’m with you thinking it’s the pre-filter causing this issue. I’m going to double check my oil cooler hoses to make sure there are no other restrictions, but the cooler was not touched between these two tests, so it’s unlikely.
My car is instrumented at the OE pressure switch location.
Doing the lord's work!
thank yiu again for your fastidious work!
What baffles are you thinking about experimenting with between GReddy, Tomei, and Ansix? From what I've read GReddy is supposed to prevent some oil from going into the timing chain cover (though after your video that seems less of a selling point), the Tomei cannot fit the KillerB pre-strainer, and the Ansix utilizes the flaps which KillerB dislikes in a horizontal configuration.
Edit: And thank you so much for providing such a thorough analysis of this issue. It wasn't long ago we all just thought it was excess RTV
I’m interested in the GReddy, but less so than I was before this test. We’ve seen good results with the SYMS baffle so far. Also interested in the Kazama design.
awesome test! I look forward to more results!
I just watched a video of Phelps Garage and he had the Tomei baffle plate and saw improvements in oil pressure on long sweeping righthand turns.
We’re not totally convinced by the Tomei baffle based on results from a friend’s test.
I wonder if an oil pick up extension can be added similar to the pre filter. Maybe even one that redirects the angle. Paired with a different pan. Need to get a camera in the pan while on a sweeper to see if the pickup is getting starved to begin with which is no easy task.
Hey. Thanks for the thorough work. Much appreciated. I am still in the camp of more fill, w40-50 oil and no cooler to help baseline pressure.
@900BRZ I am installing an oil pressure monitoring system. We will help you investigate and test stuff out.
Can’t wait to see your next test !!!
GREAT TESTING !! WE NEED MORE OF THIS KIND OF TESTING !!!
So are these results only under track conditions or are there problems on public roads with starvation issues as well? Thank you for all the research!
Thanks! We haven’t done any testing on the street, so it’s not clear. Some people have since recorded pressure gauges and not seen drops even in canyon runs, but the RPMs have been lower. If you’re not pushing 6K+ RPM in canyons, you’re unlikely to have an issue.
Thank you 🙏, keep at it 👍. I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one waiting for your results to determine if a BRZ/86 is a wise long term investment.
That's absolutely awesome.
Thanks again. Keep it up.
I love the twins, but with all the issue they have and the BRZ MT costing US$45k in my country (converted from PHP) the MX-5 seems to be the better buy.
I appreciate the progress and the work you've done for the community though.
same here. is this a design flaw? how can we get toyota subaru to fix this? I may look into the mx5 because of this. maybe the answer is miata lol
I like MX-5s too and the ND2 was designed from the factory for consistent piling up to 1.4 G
Miata Is Always The Answer
@@shibaspeed lol they say stereotypes exist because they are true lol
Great report. Sad news. But progress sits at the heels of many failures. Hope the standard trapdoor baffle idea works. Of course the extra quart might make all the differences.
keep us posted!
I have a feeling its not related to the pickup. Looking at an engine breakdown of the FA20, it seems that oil is pumped along channels in the cover with a rotational pump moving it along. Im wondering if the shift in lateral G's causes starvation in these channels... Just a guess...
Excellent job!
Could it be that the oil cooler introduces the drops or making them worse?
Would be interested in testing without it, but it’s too hot right now.
Keep up the great work! 💪 🔥
Thank you and keep up the great work:)
Keep up the great work
Very good job. I would like to see what happens when going around a right hand circle. Does the pressure recover?
Yeah that would be interesting to see. I may do a car control clinic and we’d likely do that, but I do also fear that it would not be good for my bearings haha.
Thanks for the detailed work and analysis. Can we try overfilling by more than 1 qt? I think we can go 1.5 easy. I've done it with no detectable bad effects yet.
I’m open to that. Will likely want to be using a catch can by then.
This is probably an stupid question but I'll ask anyway... did you try running the factory recommended 0w-20 oil weight? (apologies if this was already covered).
This is great work btw, thanks.
At these temps, we’d see lower nominal pressures with 0W20, as the viscosity would be lower than with 5W30. Factory recommendation in hot climates, like Malaysia, is actually 5W30.
do you consider the sx2 tires used in your testing to be lower in grip as compared to the OEM PS4 tires? Thank you for all you're doing :)
We consider them to be slightly lower grip than the originally equipped PS4 tire.
Accusump!!!! Problem solved, and every track car should have one!
Hey I was looking into getting a 2022-23 86 and was pretty set on it until I was forwarded your previous video explaining the oil pressure drop. I don’t really plan to track the car hardly at all at the moment. Do you believe it’s unwise to go ahead and still make the purchase for just like daily driving and a little fun here and there on the road. I’m just curious if this is mainly a track problem or an overall driving issue? If anything knows I’d love to hear from you.
I haven’t done any testing on the street, but I believe you’d have to be pushing very hard to see it on street. Ultimately, everyone has to make the call based on their risk tolerance, but if the car is bone stock and mainly used on street, I’d expect the warranty to apply.
@@900BRZ thanks for the reply It means a lot. You guys are doing a great job with these tests!!! Y’all are awesome!
My only concern is that you changed two things at the same time, the oil pickup mod could have skewed your results.
Yes, I decided to test these as a pair. But even if nominal pressures were lower, I would have expected to see some decrease in pressure drops if the baffle was helpful. I have to conclude that both are not helpful.
Thank you!
I run 5 and 3/4 quarts of 5w30, 9 track days with 1.3 sustained Gs on catalyst on 200TW RT660s and have not seen any oil foaming, change out every 3 track days (overkill? Maybe) but no baffle and no oil cooler
I’m not familiar with observing foaming. How would you detect that?