Respect to KillerBee for putting their design through this level of scrutiny. I wasn’t convinced it would be a success as it doesn’t address sloshing in the sump at all, however it takes outside the box thinking to drive developments forward and for that they deserve credit. Thanks again to you for doing all this legwork on the behalf of the community.
@@900BRZ I actually see it as a positive in some sense. It points to a more “traditional” fix being the way to go, which means there’s no fundamental design error. Most engines require sump baffling, especially Subaru boxers. I think it’s far better to have the “standard problem” then having to go above and beyond to sort the issue
If I’ve learned anything from this video, it’s that this dude is the next BRZ wizard, mad respect for all the work you’re doing, we need more people like you in the car community!
This issue is currently holding me back from purchasing a BRZ. The whole point of these cars is to be a fun little track car. Might have to keep my evo for longer
@KTH96 except ive had mine for 13 years, its 25 years old with 115k km and many many track days without a problem. All these are less than a year old with minimal kms and are spinning bearings.
If you are going to upspec the brakes,( which if you are going to have to do if you don’t want to constantly boil the fluid…) it’s not that hard to bolt on an aftermarket pan and oil pickup…
As a former WRX owner who went through two EJs due to similar oiling problems (and spun bearings), I really hope you're able to get to the bottom of this and provide a fix for the FRS/BRZ enthusiasts. IMO, it's ridiculous that Subaru didn't learn their lessons from the EJ motors to make the FAs more resistant to this. Anyway, fantastic work; I hope you find a solution soon!
We don’t actually have proof that it’s fixed in the WRX. There is one person who claims he has tested it on Reddit but he provides no data to substantiate the claim.
I commend both you and Killer B for taking an academic approach to this issue. A lot of these companies will throw a product on shelves and say "oh, it *should* work!" but Killer B is actually doing GOOD analysis on this. Meanwhile, Subaru and Toyota seem to want to sweep under the rug judging by how their response was to reiterate how the cars are "road cars".
Really appreciate you doing this and sharing the honest results. Also the thoroughness of your tests really needs to be commended. This is not easy to test and you are doing an outstanding job controlling the variables
The first thing I noticed was the oil pressure was almost 10psi lower. But I'm not too worried about the rtv. Once we apply it ourselves, I'm fairly certain the rtv won't be an issue. What catches my eye is even with the baffle, in some turns, you can see pressure drops earlier than with one on. My question is if these drops are significant enough, can we use the tomei baffle as a foundation and build upon there. Even on gentle curves this baffle proved to be a hindrance. The tomei baffle at least allowed the oil pressure to stay higher for gentle right turns and S turns. It's a thought, but I'm not the expert here.
We can definitely combine horizontal baffles with this one, but I would have wanted to see at least some improvement before trying that. As it is my plan is to remove this one altogether and then try out a different approach.
When trying overfill. Do it about 2/3 ~ 1qt. + baffling. That is how we keep these engines intact during insane track days + sprint event of full beating 30 mins.
Big respect for all the effort to bring the community this data and testing. With this systematic approach, it's only a matter of time before a reliable solution is found, so thanks so much.
You [and all those helping you with this] are awesome! Thanks for all your time and money toward this car. This is again another reason I love the BRZ/GR86 community. Solution focused people willing to invest in keeping these cars alive and well!
Awesome video, love the academic approach. Really unfortunate that Subaru isn’t doing anything to address this when there’s clearly an issue. Once you come up with a solution I’m sure many of us will jump on board
It seems that Toyota are the ones who are stonewalling, as Subaru made the engine to their specs and Toyota signed off on it. Toyota are the one’s telling people to take a hike, from the look of the chatter, whereas Subaru are actually attempting to deal with their customers around it, but Toyota are restricting them,( because if Subaru offers a fix, like a pan change, then it’s an admission and Toyota will be obliged to do the same, and they don’t want to!). It’s an interesting dynamic to watch play out.
@@Blballerboy some are just diehard enthusiasts of the car. From reasonable arguments such as track specific conditions such as elevation and temperature and just negate the issue by installing a baffle (hence the video) to absurb claims such as him being fraudulent with his results and doing this for clout. But its reddit, what do you expect.
I think it is more on the pre filter rather than the baffle that caused the lower pressure.. The pre filter essentially shifted your oil pick suction higher position due to the perforation holes design compared to stock that is only open on the bottom.. Imagine using a straw filled with holes to drink
Huge props to Killer B for this one and allowing us to see the data and how products don’t always work as intended. This has me wondering if there was ever any tests like this done for EJ25 engines to see if the oil baffles actually help with oil pressure or not. Great video
I was surprised to see lower oil pressure, since the oil pump seems to be in constant pressure relief above 4500 rpm or so. I would say that the suction pressure of the oil pump must be increased (i.e. more vacuum pressure at the pump inlet) in order to see lower gauge pressure at the outlet when the pump in in pressure relief. High suction vacuum pressure is typically caused by inlet restriction (therefore probably the pre-filter in this case). Ideally suction pressure shouldn't be more than a couple of psi of vacuum. A 10 psi drop in suction pressure would probably be enough to cause cavitation and reduced flow. There's a paper describing this called "Modelling approach on a Gerotor pump working in cavitation conditions". In your last video you show two oil pressure sensors. Which sensor is showing the pressure we seeing on screen and where exactly is it connected?
Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I’m with you thinking it’s the pre-filter causing this issue. I’m going to double check my oil cooler hoses to make sure there are no other restrictions, but the cooler was not touched between these two tests, so it’s unlikely. My car is instrumented at the OE pressure switch location.
What baffles are you thinking about experimenting with between GReddy, Tomei, and Ansix? From what I've read GReddy is supposed to prevent some oil from going into the timing chain cover (though after your video that seems less of a selling point), the Tomei cannot fit the KillerB pre-strainer, and the Ansix utilizes the flaps which KillerB dislikes in a horizontal configuration. Edit: And thank you so much for providing such a thorough analysis of this issue. It wasn't long ago we all just thought it was excess RTV
I’m interested in the GReddy, but less so than I was before this test. We’ve seen good results with the SYMS baffle so far. Also interested in the Kazama design.
Thank you for these updates. Bummer about the killer b baffle but the win here is the systematic way in which you are working toward a solution. It’s the kind of R&D that Subaru should have done in the first place. I am far from knowledgeable on the subject of oiling and flows but if the oil is pooling to the left and not the right, I wonder if a design with strategically located vertical plates could do the job?
Our 2023 is still sitting in the garage with 500 miles on it since we got it new. Wife's fun car so doesn't get driven much. Thank you for all this testing and info. Hopefully something comes out soon that fixes this right turn issue.
Hey man, even though I saw your post a few days ago i was still waiting for this video to come out. Very interesting to see that the pressure is lower across the board with the prefilter. I really hope that next results will be more promissing. I really think keeping the oil in the pan is the way to go, you can see that as soon as the car is turning to the right the pressure drops, which means that the oil is escaping the pan and not only being stuck at the top of the engine (at this temperature the oil should have no issue going back to the pan). I cannot wait for further testing ! Thanks for the quality content man 👍
Even though I dont own a GR/BRZ, I love how much detail you put into these videos. Hope you find a solution soon, and maybe even compare oil pressure with the EJ platform?
Subaru rally mechanic here: I have seen countless EJ/FA/FB/EZ engine failures due to oiling issues in both Street and race prep form. The engines that survived were using dry sump systems, its as easy as that. I agree we would like to know the whys of the oil system failure but for anyone wanting to avoid a failure I would point to the world of racing using dry sump systems. At this point GMC/chev have made one of the best semi dey sump systems available. Compact and inexpensive. Im not sure why subaru did not adopt this style of system for its new generation of engines. It would have saved them headache and warranty returns as well as furthered their racing pedigree.
Up front cost I’m sure. I agree a dry sump would be the ultimate solution but there are none commercially available for FA24 and it would be a very expensive and involved modification. Most aftermarket dry sumps are powered by sacrificing some other function, like driving the scavenge pumps on the accessory belt instead of the AC. So not a practical solution for most owners.
If it's not a baffle issue, I wonder if the problem is caused by oil pooling up somewhere else in the motor or a restriction causing the oil level in the pan to drop. Excellent video and props to Killer B!
This video just disproves the hypothesis behind one very unique baffle design. I still have hope for some other baffle designs. More testing coming in the future.
Have you considered starting a gofundme so that we as the community can support your testing? I'm sure lots of people (myself included) would send some money your way to pay for the track days, parts, labor, etc. This is great stuff and we all want more ASAP.
I really appreciate that. Yes, I am considering this. I want to make sure I have reasonable expectations set before doing this because I don’t have a timeline on further testing at this point. More funds would likely allow me to move faster though.
Would love to see y’all use an oil accumulator setup and see the data logs. I’m sure it’ll be the cheapest and best way to minimize oil starvation without a dry sump conversion.
I love the twins, but with all the issue they have and the BRZ MT costing US$45k in my country (converted from PHP) the MX-5 seems to be the better buy. I appreciate the progress and the work you've done for the community though.
I hope that Subaru and Toyota/Gazoo are watching these videos. This is the type of factory testing that should have happened prior to production, but I hope the manufacturers are conducting them now!!! It seems like the marketing guys (especially at Toyota) got a little ahead of the proverbial skis in touting the GR86 as track tested. You have produced well thought out and designed studies controlling for as many confounding factors as possible. I look forward to future installments. In the meantime, I guess I will be sticking to roads that only turn left.
Many thanks for these excellent video's, much appreciated. Very interested to see what's next. Greetings from the Nordschleife (awesome track to drive these cars).
@@politicallyerect6086 it would increase the distance between the pickup and the bottom of the pan. I don't know if it will have any effect on the pressure drops but increasing sump capacity is usually a good thing in motorsports. After I made the comment, I saw another video with a car with the Tomei baffle and that still had pressure drops. I'm thinking....how much oil can slosh out of the the pan beyond the pickup reach?
@@kchan333 just seems that if you move the pickup further away it’s not going to have access to the extra oil in the sump anyways. I’m excited to try my own little experiment this weekend. Putting a camera on my accusump’s gauge to see if the moroso baffle and killer bee pickup help with pressure drops. FA20 but on aero and Hoosiers
I wonder if an oil pick up extension can be added similar to the pre filter. Maybe even one that redirects the angle. Paired with a different pan. Need to get a camera in the pan while on a sweeper to see if the pickup is getting starved to begin with which is no easy task.
What a legend. If you figure this problem out and you or someone else makes a product to fix it then i'm going to do a more financialy intelligent decision and buy a gr86 instead of a supra
Thank you for taking the time to analyze this and work towards a solution! and being unbiased with companies even though they are sending you prototypes. will definitely be following this series.
seriously awesome work. While I don't have a second gen I really appreciate the hard work you're putting into this issue. This is the kind of stuff that makes the twin community so great. With that said I'll bring up what I mentioned on your last video. After looking closer at the shape and layout of the oil pan I still believe the issue is the asymmetrical oil pan and pickup favoring the passenger side. I'm pretty sure the best solution will be a vertical walled baffle that runs front to back to prevent sloshing towards the driver side. That's not to say a horizontal baffle isn't needed either but I think the car needs a system like what IAG builds for WRX's. As for your idea of over filling, I feel like this may alleviate some of the pressure drops but then you might run into more issues with excessive blow by. I'm guessing 1/2 quart might be ok but much beyond that I'd worry assuming you don't have a horizontal baffle to keep the oil from sloshing up into the the upper oil pan / block girdle area. It might be a good idea to see if KillerB will do a horizontal and vertical baffle system combined with a little more oil. Though it would be good to measure the volume of the stock oil pan and keep the oil fill to what will fit in the pan.
Great ideas and I’m thinking something similar. I’m interested in the Kazama baffle, which has a horizontal wall with a 1-way trap door to try and keep oil near the pickup. I’m a little concerned that unless it’s welded in it may lose too much oil around the edges on the vertical section.
Thank you for all you are doing. I have a GR86 on order to be a fun weekend car with track and autox in mind. Wanting a fix for this has been something I have been searching for and good to know there are other enthusiast working on some solutions. Subscribed and looking forward to some positive designs and results soon.
@NoStreetRacing86 is working on a version of his CAN injection MCU that he’d be able to have fabricated and that would make it feasible for wider distribution. Meanwhile, he has technically open-sourced everything you’d need to order a PCB and build it yourself: github.com/zeroomega/canmim
This is such a beautiful video. Great info and like no hubris just pure facts and even admittance that the test may not be perfect. I am now subscribing to this channel. Good job my friend
I wanted that I’m in school to be an aircraft mechanic and they use a lot of baffles or “slosh boxes” around their fuel pumps so maybe just copy one of the design of an airplane and maybe it’ll work real well for the oil system. Jets use a dry sump for oil but the piston planes don’t so maybe look into those as well
Thanks for the suggestions. So far we’ve been getting inspiration from other road cars engines, particularly from Porsche, but would be interesting to look at piston airplane engines as well. One of the people in our community who is a mech e is designing his own baffle now and working to get it to the testing phase. That’s probably what I’m going to test next.
Brian, thanks to you and your group for the testing and public results. Im most looking forward to seeing results for a vertical baffle design like Kazama or Jun Auto. Subscribed and eagerly awaiting future videos
The work you are doing on this is fantastic! Thank you for bringing a data-driven approach to this issue. Any thoughts on when the next test will be live?
Yes, I decided to test these as a pair. But even if nominal pressures were lower, I would have expected to see some decrease in pressure drops if the baffle was helpful. I have to conclude that both are not helpful.
Can't stress how important your personal work is to the community, and a personal thank you, as I want to get an FA24 (Beyond my Outback Wilderness with it's FA24T as that doesn't really count lol), to replace my STI, and this has been of concern to me.
I really appreciate you doing all of this meticulous testing so maybe one day I can take my GR86 to the track without worring and can just focus on having a good time made it a very easy decision for my sub to the channel!
Anecdotally, I’ve seen multiple WRX STIs fail immediately or shortly after installing the Killer B oil pan and/or oil pickup, including the STI that was filmed blowing up on Gears and Gasoline immediately after installing the Killer B parts. I’m not trying to imply that their parts are specifically harmful, just that they may not be as effective as Killer B claims. I suggest reaching out to multiple professional Subaru Motorsports teams and asking what brands of oil pans and pickups they use in competition, then contacting those brands to discuss their designs and how they compare to Killer B’s. There’s plenty of FA/FB engines surviving in high-level professional racing competition. Find out how those motorsports teams are handling the oiling system in their comp cars.
I’ve been in contact with several people who are participating in GR Cup. They run higher oil capacity than stock and have a welded-in baffle in what looks like a stock oil pan. They’re running 0W40 oil and I’ve heard reports of multiple engine failures. Unfortunately they don’t televise practice sessions, so it’s not possible as an observer to understand the total failure rate.
I think the problem is not about oil pan not sucking up enough oil, but actually not draining back to the pan due to getting stuck in the heads,Porsche has 5 pumps to help scavenging, I think the issue had to do with the increased displacement, I would also check to see if overfilling 0.5-1qt we’ll help the issue to an extent
Great report. Sad news. But progress sits at the heels of many failures. Hope the standard trapdoor baffle idea works. Of course the extra quart might make all the differences.
I still believe the issue probably will be fix by a competition pan like the EJ we have, and replace that oil pick up exactly at the center bottom of the pan not like FA24 OEM to one side
Great video, really well presented testing. Also, thanks for actually writing the English subs for the CC button, because they are accurate, and I can't always be sure just by listening what some of the words are, especially with terminology that is very specific or place names that I'm not familiar with. Usually an English speaking video maker won't bother to write accurate English subs. So in those cases I'll usually try "English auto generated" or "Auto Translate" and after I've had a few laughs about how bad they are I'll probably just turn them off. Because the "auto" thingie can't understand everything that is said any better than I can. So anyway thanks for putting the real words in there in writing.
I run 5 and 3/4 quarts of 5w30, 9 track days with 1.3 sustained Gs on catalyst on 200TW RT660s and have not seen any oil foaming, change out every 3 track days (overkill? Maybe) but no baffle and no oil cooler
I think that the right turn oil pressure drop got something to do with the downward mounted oil filter. Air pocket can get trapped on top of the filter and coincidently, the oil feed is to the right of the return. Just a guess.
I don’t have any particularly knowledge to refute that. But it does seem like then we’d see more consistent behavior with that FA20. It does exhibit pressure drops, but not as severely as the FA24 unless you’re running a higher grip setup.
Curious if changing the type of oil filter where height and supported oil pressure may change the result as well as using the baffle. I think the gen1 has a lower pressure sped'ed filter
@@900BRZ I come up with this hypothesis because I dealt with some fluid exchange pump have those upside down mounted filter and the housing is transparent. And you guessed, there is alway air pocket on top of the filter housing. So the FA/B engine might behave the some. Another thing comes to my attention, the bypass valve on the oil pump is a perfect horizontal cylinder, and it looks like it opens to the left. maybe the high G makes it open at the wrong pressure?
@@900BRZ the graph from your previous video at cca 5:40 ua-cam.com/video/4Jk5WTWoqt4/v-deo.html shows that that particular gr86 behaved the same as the FA20.. it seems to me like there is some construction based issue same for the both the fa20 and 24. another question is how the oil cooler can affect the pressures if this additional plate with filter actually worsened the situation? do you think it would be possible to test the full stock car? I think this would be the best possible start to rule out all external factors... greetings, gj
not sure if this helps but in the control video, i noticed at 3:49, in the hairpin rpm is 4k rpm and lateral accel is around -1g, and oil pressure is solid 60, now fast forward to 7:21 same hairpin, similar conditions except rpm is at 7100rpm (2ndgear). but oil pressure dropped to low 30s. so yeah. thanks for your research. great stuff.
Good catch. Yeah we're noticing that the pressure drops seem to happen right around 6K RPM and above. We believe it's because there's a higher flow rate of oil at high RPM, so it's exhausting the supply in the sump faster than oil is returning. This is also why short-shifting helps.
@@jagymeister If you go through a right-hand turn 1 gear higher than normal, you will reduce the likelihood for a pressure drop because you reduce the flow rate through the engine, keeping more oil available in the sump. For example, by taking T5 at Thunderhill West in 4th instead of 3rd, I can eliminate the pressure drop. It may be slower, but if you want to reduce risk, it’s a strategy that we’ve proven in at least some corners.
@@900BRZ thanks for info! Going in upper gears actually made my times faster in GR Yaris (car more stable). Im getting 86 next month, this needs to be sorted! Thanks for your time🙏🏻
Yeah there’s someone in our group who is almost always a gear higher than other folks and he’s really fast. Can definitely still be fast with higher gear selection you just have to maintain the speed!
Respect to KillerBee for putting their design through this level of scrutiny. I wasn’t convinced it would be a success as it doesn’t address sloshing in the sump at all, however it takes outside the box thinking to drive developments forward and for that they deserve credit. Thanks again to you for doing all this legwork on the behalf of the community.
Agree, they had a good idea that was a zag when everyone else was zigging. But it didn’t play out this time.
@@900BRZ I actually see it as a positive in some sense. It points to a more “traditional” fix being the way to go, which means there’s no fundamental design error. Most engines require sump baffling, especially Subaru boxers. I think it’s far better to have the “standard problem” then having to go above and beyond to sort the issue
Yeah I see that argument for sure.
Even though the results are not ideal from a “I’d like my brz to lubricate properly” POV, this is an excellent process to watch
I really appreciate this, please continue to keep us posted. Any steps we can take to increase the longevity of these engines is critical!
If I’ve learned anything from this video, it’s that this dude is the next BRZ wizard, mad respect for all the work you’re doing, we need more people like you in the car community!
Please do the PLM dual level oil baffle next. I really appreciate the work that you're doing. Glad to see a community building up around this car
PLM couldn't even figure out how to make a hood hinge for Skylines, I would not risk an engine on anything they make.
@@joshuaho3150 yeah PLM's exhaust piece fitment are shit as well. Will not use their stuff ever again.
This issue is currently holding me back from purchasing a BRZ. The whole point of these cars is to be a fun little track car. Might have to keep my evo for longer
Ironic considering Evos have oil starvation issues as well lol
@KTH96 except ive had mine for 13 years, its 25 years old with 115k km and many many track days without a problem. All these are less than a year old with minimal kms and are spinning bearings.
Trust me, keep the Evo
If you need to replace the EVO, get a VB WRX. The FA24DIT is as good as a 4G63 in many ways. Only took Subaru 30 years....
If you are going to upspec the brakes,( which if you are going to have to do if you don’t want to constantly boil the fluid…) it’s not that hard to bolt on an aftermarket pan and oil pickup…
As a former WRX owner who went through two EJs due to similar oiling problems (and spun bearings), I really hope you're able to get to the bottom of this and provide a fix for the FRS/BRZ enthusiasts. IMO, it's ridiculous that Subaru didn't learn their lessons from the EJ motors to make the FAs more resistant to this. Anyway, fantastic work; I hope you find a solution soon!
The thing is Subaru actually has fixed it, the FA24F in the WRX doesn't have this issue.
@@KTH96yep, brz always feels like Subarus step child
@@KTH96so what's stopping us from using THAT oil pan? What's different?
We don’t actually have proof that it’s fixed in the WRX. There is one person who claims he has tested it on Reddit but he provides no data to substantiate the claim.
What's odd is the FA20 didn't have those problems
I had high hopes for this, but that’s how stuff goes. Back to the drawing board and onto the next idea.
I commend both you and Killer B for taking an academic approach to this issue. A lot of these companies will throw a product on shelves and say "oh, it *should* work!" but Killer B is actually doing GOOD analysis on this. Meanwhile, Subaru and Toyota seem to want to sweep under the rug judging by how their response was to reiterate how the cars are "road cars".
Really appreciate you doing this and sharing the honest results. Also the thoroughness of your tests really needs to be commended. This is not easy to test and you are doing an outstanding job controlling the variables
As a brz owner, I can’t thank you enough for the work you done. Good job keep it up!
Good data. I run a GReddy on mine with .75qt overfill. Curious your findings with overfill data. Good stuff bud
The first thing I noticed was the oil pressure was almost 10psi lower. But I'm not too worried about the rtv. Once we apply it ourselves, I'm fairly certain the rtv won't be an issue. What catches my eye is even with the baffle, in some turns, you can see pressure drops earlier than with one on. My question is if these drops are significant enough, can we use the tomei baffle as a foundation and build upon there. Even on gentle curves this baffle proved to be a hindrance. The tomei baffle at least allowed the oil pressure to stay higher for gentle right turns and S turns. It's a thought, but I'm not the expert here.
We can definitely combine horizontal baffles with this one, but I would have wanted to see at least some improvement before trying that. As it is my plan is to remove this one altogether and then try out a different approach.
Killer B is the goats for open testing like this. Tells me they have faith in their final product. I'll grab one when it's finished.
I dont even have one of these cars but im very interesting in watching the process of you guys figuring out the oiling system. Great videos guys!
When trying overfill. Do it about 2/3 ~ 1qt. + baffling. That is how we keep these engines intact during insane track days + sprint event of full beating 30 mins.
Big respect for all the effort to bring the community this data and testing. With this systematic approach, it's only a matter of time before a reliable solution is found, so thanks so much.
This issue is the one thing stopping me from purchasing BRZ/86. Thanks for all your work and hopefully a solution is found soon
You [and all those helping you with this] are awesome! Thanks for all your time and money toward this car. This is again another reason I love the BRZ/GR86 community. Solution focused people willing to invest in keeping these cars alive and well!
Thank you for your sacrifice.
Awesome video, love the academic approach. Really unfortunate that Subaru isn’t doing anything to address this when there’s clearly an issue. Once you come up with a solution I’m sure many of us will jump on board
It seems that Toyota are the ones who are stonewalling, as Subaru made the engine to their specs and Toyota signed off on it.
Toyota are the one’s telling people to take a hike, from the look of the chatter, whereas Subaru are actually attempting to deal with their customers around it, but Toyota are restricting them,( because if Subaru offers a fix, like a pan change, then it’s an admission and Toyota will be obliged to do the same, and they don’t want to!).
It’s an interesting dynamic to watch play out.
Thank you for this. Please keep us posted with all your findings. We appreciate it very much.
Thank you for this information and thank you for keeping your cool from all the hate on the GR86 sub reddit.
Haha all in a days work
Wait why were they hating on him?
@@Blballerboy some are just diehard enthusiasts of the car.
From reasonable arguments such as track specific conditions such as elevation and temperature and just negate the issue by installing a baffle (hence the video) to absurb claims such as him being fraudulent with his results and doing this for clout. But its reddit, what do you expect.
I think it is more on the pre filter rather than the baffle that caused the lower pressure..
The pre filter essentially shifted your oil pick suction higher position due to the perforation holes design compared to stock that is only open on the bottom..
Imagine using a straw filled with holes to drink
I called out that I believe the lower nominal pressure is due to the pre-filter.
Anyways great work man!! Looking forward to the next baffle that you will be testing and the overfill test
That prefilter is joke. I have little faith anyone that came up with that can design anything functional
Huge props to Killer B for this one and allowing us to see the data and how products don’t always work as intended. This has me wondering if there was ever any tests like this done for EJ25 engines to see if the oil baffles actually help with oil pressure or not. Great video
Loving the scientific research behind your testing. I am grateful for your support to the community of GEN2 owners.
I was surprised to see lower oil pressure, since the oil pump seems to be in constant pressure relief above 4500 rpm or so. I would say that the suction pressure of the oil pump must be increased (i.e. more vacuum pressure at the pump inlet) in order to see lower gauge pressure at the outlet when the pump in in pressure relief. High suction vacuum pressure is typically caused by inlet restriction (therefore probably the pre-filter in this case). Ideally suction pressure shouldn't be more than a couple of psi of vacuum. A 10 psi drop in suction pressure would probably be enough to cause cavitation and reduced flow. There's a paper describing this called "Modelling approach on a Gerotor pump working in cavitation conditions".
In your last video you show two oil pressure sensors. Which sensor is showing the pressure we seeing on screen and where exactly is it connected?
Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I’m with you thinking it’s the pre-filter causing this issue. I’m going to double check my oil cooler hoses to make sure there are no other restrictions, but the cooler was not touched between these two tests, so it’s unlikely.
My car is instrumented at the OE pressure switch location.
Thank you for all the hard work you are doing for the community. ❤
This dude just keeps dropping and delivering knowledge like he’s UPS…respect
Kudos for putting your engine on the line.
As track build GR86 owner, I really appreciated your persistence on trying to solve oil pressure issue.
I don’t even have a BRZ but these videos have been very good watches and I’m excited to see the next videos
What baffles are you thinking about experimenting with between GReddy, Tomei, and Ansix? From what I've read GReddy is supposed to prevent some oil from going into the timing chain cover (though after your video that seems less of a selling point), the Tomei cannot fit the KillerB pre-strainer, and the Ansix utilizes the flaps which KillerB dislikes in a horizontal configuration.
Edit: And thank you so much for providing such a thorough analysis of this issue. It wasn't long ago we all just thought it was excess RTV
I’m interested in the GReddy, but less so than I was before this test. We’ve seen good results with the SYMS baffle so far. Also interested in the Kazama design.
Thank you for these updates. Bummer about the killer b baffle but the win here is the systematic way in which you are working toward a solution. It’s the kind of R&D that Subaru should have done in the first place. I am far from knowledgeable on the subject of oiling and flows but if the oil is pooling to the left and not the right, I wonder if a design with strategically located vertical plates could do the job?
Our 2023 is still sitting in the garage with 500 miles on it since we got it new. Wife's fun car so doesn't get driven much. Thank you for all this testing and info. Hopefully something comes out soon that fixes this right turn issue.
Thank you so much for testing this.
@900BRZ FYI Amazon links in the description are broken. Thanks for the update, I really appreciate the straight forward, sober analysis.
Thank you, updated the links! Appreciate the comment.
Hey man, even though I saw your post a few days ago i was still waiting for this video to come out. Very interesting to see that the pressure is lower across the board with the prefilter. I really hope that next results will be more promissing. I really think keeping the oil in the pan is the way to go, you can see that as soon as the car is turning to the right the pressure drops, which means that the oil is escaping the pan and not only being stuck at the top of the engine (at this temperature the oil should have no issue going back to the pan). I cannot wait for further testing ! Thanks for the quality content man 👍
Agree, thank you!
Brian, thanks for sharing all your findings. I am in the market for a BRZ to track. Watching this series.
Appreciate the follow up and great data analysis!! 👌 Looking forward to more findings
Even though I dont own a GR/BRZ, I love how much detail you put into these videos. Hope you find a solution soon, and maybe even compare oil pressure with the EJ platform?
Subaru rally mechanic here: I have seen countless EJ/FA/FB/EZ engine failures due to oiling issues in both Street and race prep form.
The engines that survived were using dry sump systems, its as easy as that. I agree we would like to know the whys of the oil system failure but for anyone wanting to avoid a failure I would point to the world of racing using dry sump systems.
At this point GMC/chev have made one of the best semi dey sump systems available. Compact and inexpensive. Im not sure why subaru did not adopt this style of system for its new generation of engines. It would have saved them headache and warranty returns as well as furthered their racing pedigree.
Up front cost I’m sure. I agree a dry sump would be the ultimate solution but there are none commercially available for FA24 and it would be a very expensive and involved modification. Most aftermarket dry sumps are powered by sacrificing some other function, like driving the scavenge pumps on the accessory belt instead of the AC. So not a practical solution for most owners.
I just watched a video of Phelps Garage and he had the Tomei baffle plate and saw improvements in oil pressure on long sweeping righthand turns.
We’re not totally convinced by the Tomei baffle based on results from a friend’s test.
This guy gave the best presentations in school, I bet
If it's not a baffle issue, I wonder if the problem is caused by oil pooling up somewhere else in the motor or a restriction causing the oil level in the pan to drop. Excellent video and props to Killer B!
This video just disproves the hypothesis behind one very unique baffle design. I still have hope for some other baffle designs. More testing coming in the future.
Have you considered starting a gofundme so that we as the community can support your testing? I'm sure lots of people (myself included) would send some money your way to pay for the track days, parts, labor, etc. This is great stuff and we all want more ASAP.
I really appreciate that. Yes, I am considering this. I want to make sure I have reasonable expectations set before doing this because I don’t have a timeline on further testing at this point. More funds would likely allow me to move faster though.
Yep some of us have helped out on this go around.
Thanks all for this important research. I hope this leads to a product that can fix the problem.
Would love to see y’all use an oil accumulator setup and see the data logs. I’m sure it’ll be the cheapest and best way to minimize oil starvation without a dry sump conversion.
I love the twins, but with all the issue they have and the BRZ MT costing US$45k in my country (converted from PHP) the MX-5 seems to be the better buy.
I appreciate the progress and the work you've done for the community though.
same here. is this a design flaw? how can we get toyota subaru to fix this? I may look into the mx5 because of this. maybe the answer is miata lol
I like MX-5s too and the ND2 was designed from the factory for consistent piling up to 1.4 G
Miata Is Always The Answer
@@shibaspeed lol they say stereotypes exist because they are true lol
I hope that Subaru and Toyota/Gazoo are watching these videos. This is the type of factory testing that should have happened prior to production, but I hope the manufacturers are conducting them now!!! It seems like the marketing guys (especially at Toyota) got a little ahead of the proverbial skis in touting the GR86 as track tested. You have produced well thought out and designed studies controlling for as many confounding factors as possible. I look forward to future installments. In the meantime, I guess I will be sticking to roads that only turn left.
Thank you. Agree on the marketing-reality mismatch here. They could do a lot of good just by being more generous with warranty coverage.
Thanks for doing the work to gather the data and sharing it with the community.
Many thanks for these excellent video's, much appreciated.
Very interested to see what's next.
Greetings from the Nordschleife (awesome track to drive these cars).
A good ol' baffle should help... maybe a combination baffle and oil pan spacer to increase oil capacity.
Does the spacer also move the pickup further away from the bottom? Seems like that would be moot if it does
@@politicallyerect6086 it would increase the distance between the pickup and the bottom of the pan. I don't know if it will have any effect on the pressure drops but increasing sump capacity is usually a good thing in motorsports. After I made the comment, I saw another video with a car with the Tomei baffle and that still had pressure drops. I'm thinking....how much oil can slosh out of the the pan beyond the pickup reach?
@@kchan333 just seems that if you move the pickup further away it’s not going to have access to the extra oil in the sump anyways.
I’m excited to try my own little experiment this weekend. Putting a camera on my accusump’s gauge to see if the moroso baffle and killer bee pickup help with pressure drops. FA20 but on aero and Hoosiers
Fantastic work! Thank you so much for your valuable time and effort!
great video! thanks for doing the hard work. I hope we find a solution soon
I wonder if an oil pick up extension can be added similar to the pre filter. Maybe even one that redirects the angle. Paired with a different pan. Need to get a camera in the pan while on a sweeper to see if the pickup is getting starved to begin with which is no easy task.
What a legend.
If you figure this problem out and you or someone else makes a product to fix it then i'm going to do a more financialy intelligent decision and buy a gr86 instead of a supra
Thank you for taking the time to analyze this and work towards a solution! and being unbiased with companies even though they are sending you prototypes. will definitely be following this series.
Great video! I feel like it’s a lesson for Toyota hopefully they will do a mass production 3 cylinder GR86 not just test cars.
Thank you for your efforts in finding the cause and a solution
seriously awesome work. While I don't have a second gen I really appreciate the hard work you're putting into this issue. This is the kind of stuff that makes the twin community so great.
With that said I'll bring up what I mentioned on your last video. After looking closer at the shape and layout of the oil pan I still believe the issue is the asymmetrical oil pan and pickup favoring the passenger side. I'm pretty sure the best solution will be a vertical walled baffle that runs front to back to prevent sloshing towards the driver side. That's not to say a horizontal baffle isn't needed either but I think the car needs a system like what IAG builds for WRX's.
As for your idea of over filling, I feel like this may alleviate some of the pressure drops but then you might run into more issues with excessive blow by. I'm guessing 1/2 quart might be ok but much beyond that I'd worry assuming you don't have a horizontal baffle to keep the oil from sloshing up into the the upper oil pan / block girdle area. It might be a good idea to see if KillerB will do a horizontal and vertical baffle system combined with a little more oil. Though it would be good to measure the volume of the stock oil pan and keep the oil fill to what will fit in the pan.
Great ideas and I’m thinking something similar. I’m interested in the Kazama baffle, which has a horizontal wall with a 1-way trap door to try and keep oil near the pickup. I’m a little concerned that unless it’s welded in it may lose too much oil around the edges on the vertical section.
This is getting super interesting
Thank you for all you are doing. I have a GR86 on order to be a fun weekend car with track and autox in mind. Wanting a fix for this has been something I have been searching for and good to know there are other enthusiast working on some solutions. Subscribed and looking forward to some positive designs and results soon.
Shame the result is not what we were hoping for. I really would love a tutorial video on how we can make the DIY canbus oil pressure module.
@NoStreetRacing86 is working on a version of his CAN injection MCU that he’d be able to have fabricated and that would make it feasible for wider distribution. Meanwhile, he has technically open-sourced everything you’d need to order a PCB and build it yourself: github.com/zeroomega/canmim
This is such a beautiful video. Great info and like no hubris just pure facts and even admittance that the test may not be perfect. I am now subscribing to this channel. Good job my friend
Thank you so much for the data analytical approach. I'm glued to this channel as I own a GR86 and knowledge is power
I wanted that I’m in school to be an aircraft mechanic and they use a lot of baffles or “slosh boxes” around their fuel pumps so maybe just copy one of the design of an airplane and maybe it’ll work real well for the oil system. Jets use a dry sump for oil but the piston planes don’t so maybe look into those as well
Thanks for the suggestions. So far we’ve been getting inspiration from other road cars engines, particularly from Porsche, but would be interesting to look at piston airplane engines as well. One of the people in our community who is a mech e is designing his own baffle now and working to get it to the testing phase. That’s probably what I’m going to test next.
If killer be combined this design with tomei in a way it would actually fix both the elevation and right turn problems
This man is doing the lord’s work.
Operators
Brian, thanks to you and your group for the testing and public results. Im most looking forward to seeing results for a vertical baffle design like Kazama or Jun Auto. Subscribed and eagerly awaiting future videos
This is some real engineering being conducted! Love all the data
The work you are doing on this is fantastic! Thank you for bringing a data-driven approach to this issue. Any thoughts on when the next test will be live?
My only concern is that you changed two things at the same time, the oil pickup mod could have skewed your results.
Yes, I decided to test these as a pair. But even if nominal pressures were lower, I would have expected to see some decrease in pressure drops if the baffle was helpful. I have to conclude that both are not helpful.
Excellent video, thanks. I'm both looking forward to seeing where this goes, and hoping you find a solution soon. Love the approach.
Can't stress how important your personal work is to the community, and a personal thank you, as I want to get an FA24 (Beyond my Outback Wilderness with it's FA24T as that doesn't really count lol), to replace my STI, and this has been of concern to me.
Appreciate it!
I really appreciate you doing all of this meticulous testing so maybe one day I can take my GR86 to the track without worring and can just focus on having a good time made it a very easy decision for my sub to the channel!
Anecdotally, I’ve seen multiple WRX STIs fail immediately or shortly after installing the Killer B oil pan and/or oil pickup, including the STI that was filmed blowing up on Gears and Gasoline immediately after installing the Killer B parts. I’m not trying to imply that their parts are specifically harmful, just that they may not be as effective as Killer B claims.
I suggest reaching out to multiple professional Subaru Motorsports teams and asking what brands of oil pans and pickups they use in competition, then contacting those brands to discuss their designs and how they compare to Killer B’s.
There’s plenty of FA/FB engines surviving in high-level professional racing competition. Find out how those motorsports teams are handling the oiling system in their comp cars.
I’ve been in contact with several people who are participating in GR Cup. They run higher oil capacity than stock and have a welded-in baffle in what looks like a stock oil pan. They’re running 0W40 oil and I’ve heard reports of multiple engine failures. Unfortunately they don’t televise practice sessions, so it’s not possible as an observer to understand the total failure rate.
I think the problem is not about oil pan not sucking up enough oil, but actually not draining back to the pan due to getting stuck in the heads,Porsche has 5 pumps to help scavenging, I think the issue had to do with the increased displacement, I would also check to see if overfilling 0.5-1qt we’ll help the issue to an extent
Either way I think a moderate overfill could help, but we’ll see!
GREAT TESTING !! WE NEED MORE OF THIS KIND OF TESTING !!!
Great report. Sad news. But progress sits at the heels of many failures. Hope the standard trapdoor baffle idea works. Of course the extra quart might make all the differences.
Didn’t expect the baffle to make oil pressures worse as they’re averaging 10psi less..
I think it’s the pre-filter, not the baffle.
awesome test! I look forward to more results!
Another great video, thanks for putting this data together!
I really like your data analysis approach. Awesome job, keep it up!
I still believe the issue probably will be fix by a competition pan like the EJ we have, and replace that oil pick up exactly at the center bottom of the pan not like FA24 OEM to one side
Replacing the pickup is an engine out job unfortunately, so if we can find a less invasive solution, it’ll make it much more accessible.
@@900BRZ yeh, I know, then probably need to redesign the whole pan and baffle to fit that oil pick up, like a completely new design
vertical baffle with one-way valve at the bottom might be the answer
thank yiu again for your fastidious work!
Appreciate this data and your testing result. keep up the good work. many thanks
Can’t wait to see your next test !!!
Great video, really well presented testing. Also, thanks for actually writing the English subs for the CC button, because they are accurate, and I can't always be sure just by listening what some of the words are, especially with terminology that is very specific or place names that I'm not familiar with. Usually an English speaking video maker won't bother to write accurate English subs. So in those cases I'll usually try "English auto generated" or "Auto Translate" and after I've had a few laughs about how bad they are I'll probably just turn them off. Because the "auto" thingie can't understand everything that is said any better than I can. So anyway thanks for putting the real words in there in writing.
Glad someone appreciated that!
Hey. Thanks for the thorough work. Much appreciated. I am still in the camp of more fill, w40-50 oil and no cooler to help baseline pressure.
@900BRZ I am installing an oil pressure monitoring system. We will help you investigate and test stuff out.
Thanks for doing Subaru's work for us :)
I run 5 and 3/4 quarts of 5w30, 9 track days with 1.3 sustained Gs on catalyst on 200TW RT660s and have not seen any oil foaming, change out every 3 track days (overkill? Maybe) but no baffle and no oil cooler
I’m not familiar with observing foaming. How would you detect that?
Keep up the great work
I think that the right turn oil pressure drop got something to do with the downward mounted oil filter. Air pocket can get trapped on top of the filter and coincidently, the oil feed is to the right of the return. Just a guess.
I don’t have any particularly knowledge to refute that. But it does seem like then we’d see more consistent behavior with that FA20. It does exhibit pressure drops, but not as severely as the FA24 unless you’re running a higher grip setup.
Curious if changing the type of oil filter where height and supported oil pressure may change the result as well as using the baffle. I think the gen1 has a lower pressure sped'ed filter
@@900BRZ I come up with this hypothesis because I dealt with some fluid exchange pump have those upside down mounted filter and the housing is transparent. And you guessed, there is alway air pocket on top of the filter housing. So the FA/B engine might behave the some.
Another thing comes to my attention, the bypass valve on the oil pump is a perfect horizontal cylinder, and it looks like it opens to the left. maybe the high G makes it open at the wrong pressure?
@@900BRZ the graph from your previous video at cca 5:40 ua-cam.com/video/4Jk5WTWoqt4/v-deo.html shows that that particular gr86 behaved the same as the FA20.. it seems to me like there is some construction based issue same for the both the fa20 and 24. another question is how the oil cooler can affect the pressures if this additional plate with filter actually worsened the situation? do you think it would be possible to test the full stock car? I think this would be the best possible start to rule out all external factors... greetings, gj
alot of people are talking about your video. idk who hasn't heard of it!
not sure if this helps but in the control video, i noticed at 3:49, in the hairpin rpm is 4k rpm and lateral accel is around -1g, and oil pressure is solid 60, now fast forward to 7:21 same hairpin, similar conditions except rpm is at 7100rpm (2ndgear). but oil pressure dropped to low 30s. so yeah. thanks for your research. great stuff.
Good catch. Yeah we're noticing that the pressure drops seem to happen right around 6K RPM and above. We believe it's because there's a higher flow rate of oil at high RPM, so it's exhausting the supply in the sump faster than oil is returning. This is also why short-shifting helps.
@@900BRZwhat do you mean shortshifting helps?
@@jagymeister If you go through a right-hand turn 1 gear higher than normal, you will reduce the likelihood for a pressure drop because you reduce the flow rate through the engine, keeping more oil available in the sump.
For example, by taking T5 at Thunderhill West in 4th instead of 3rd, I can eliminate the pressure drop. It may be slower, but if you want to reduce risk, it’s a strategy that we’ve proven in at least some corners.
@@900BRZ thanks for info! Going in upper gears actually made my times faster in GR Yaris (car more stable). Im getting 86 next month, this needs to be sorted! Thanks for your time🙏🏻
Yeah there’s someone in our group who is almost always a gear higher than other folks and he’s really fast. Can definitely still be fast with higher gear selection you just have to maintain the speed!
Thanks again. Keep it up.
Keep up the great work! 💪 🔥
keep us posted!