Sorry Guys, Rogue's the GOAT.
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- Опубліковано 18 бер 2024
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If the achievements were reversed the foreign community would be even more convinced Serra’s was the goat.
This is 100% true.
@@ArtosisTVyour so hot when tell people the truth. Croubed
Serral, Maru, and Rogue all dominated, but none did it during the peak of SC2 competitiveness, which is why Innovation is the GOAT
but inno aint even the best gamer in his house hold kek. his little bro guma is league current world champ former best player in position, number 1 on ladder. and i think they are cousins with faker. they have uchiha bloodline
@@Playboipete If Inno started playing LoL, he would simply siege bunch of tanks near the river banks and after killing all the towers he would lay mines all around opponents' forrest and wait with marine/marauder/medevac combo to kill everything on the map. Its just his style. And he would kill Roshan with his first medevac + 8 marines.
Thank you someone said it
Yup, Inno is the goat in my heart. Dude just stopped trying.
@@derekbutts2660 and is wrong lol
Flash would have won
Real and true
Flash would of* one*.
😂
Wrong game
I believe you mean Stephano
This isn't about GOATS but I feel like the most legendary SC2 player has to be Maru. He singlehandedly defined the terran meta multiple times, his games are extremely entertaining to watch, and you just want to root for him all the time.
this topic is enough to revive the pylon show
omg i remember staying up laughing my ass off watching every pylon show. That was great
what about the shoe factor? if you predict a player and you would eat a shoe if he or she wouldnt get into the ro16? rogue would failed this factor.
I came here and was pretty sure that I would be disagreeing with Artosis. Watched the video and think he made a very compelling case. Not that I necessarily agree with him, but the argument is well structured and comprehensible. Good video.
Hey guys, this is what NOT being an emotional, braindead Serral Stan looks like.
Maru is probably a few games away from being the GOAT, dude has so many 2nds in weekend tournaments where Terran's just do not win. Someone would need to pull the stats but he likely has the highest average placing in major tournaments. He is the only Terran Super tournament champ, and i think Byun is the only Terran world champ. Bro just picked the wrong race or he might be the GOAT
Artosis spitting facts. Anyone trying to dispute these points is just trying to argue for the sake of argument.
GOAT discussion is not yet finished because Rogue is doing (he should be finished now, right?) his military service while Maru and Serral still need to do their military service (aside: yes, Finland requires military service just like Korea).
The true GOAT discussion won't be answered until either Maru and Serral both go to the military and/or Rogue comes back from his service and starts playing SC2 again.
How long is the military break?
Rogue is back already. Serral is currently doing his but military in Finland is substantially easier than in South Korea (e.g., Serral will be able to compete in some important tournaments while doing military service) @120rikeshlawoju8
Do you think Maru being probably the best proleague player gives him an argument at all? My understanding is that when that was going Korean pros were required to prioritize it over individual tournaments.
Flash isn't the goat of SC1, he never won NAPL
Imagine watching Neil deGrasse Tyson talking about space with a chat cesspool going full circlejerk next to his face.
Can we Stop talking about the GOAT and start talking about Goats?
have a discussion with PiG about this!
I think this conversation is a little harder because the sc2 goat just isn’t as clear as some other goat examples.
Some undisputed examples.
Swimming: Michael Phelps. Hockey: Gretzky. American football QB: Brady. Women’s tennis: Serena Williams. In these cases it’s pretty cut and dry. Like Flash and BW.
However, some fields it’s more contested. Basketball: Jordan vs LeBron. tennis: djokavic vs Federer vs nadal. All have many accomplishments. It comes down to how you weigh them.
Boxing all time greats is particularly contentious. The eras are so vastly different! The styles vary so much. Is it Ali? Is it Mike Tyson? Or is it Tyson Fury? Or is it Floyd Mayweather? Maybe it's Rocky Marciano? Sometimes it's super tough to make this type of choice.
Jordan is way better than LeBron and Mahomes is just as good as Brady.
It was all good exemples until you talked about Jordan vs LeBron. LeBron says he is the goat. Actual legends says Jordan is. When you are the real goat, you don't have to call yourself it, it just comes to you.
Other than that, pretty summary!
@@ianfarris9396 and many many many people would happily debate those. They’re open to debate.
@@ianfarris9396Mahommes is just as good as Brady? Hahahahahahaha you mean the same Brady that curbstomped Mahommes in the Playoffs twice, when the man was over 40.
It would be interesting to also compare how many deep runs they have in the premier tournaments, that way you can gauge consistency as well, not just count championships.
you know Artosis, i really love how you're willing to humor any type of conversation or argument. Whether I agree or disagree with you, it makes for really good conversation and i love listening to it lmao
Like 10 years ago Arty was saying Rogue is the best player outside of offline tournament everyone looked up to him. I'm not surprised he is saying the same now.
Your first mistake was going to Reddit. Giving up Reddit is basically the best decision a human being can make. But my opinion might be biased because on the basis of you being Artosis, I already knew you were right before I clicked the video.
I could have sworn Rogue had won more than that.
Maru wins easy. The sheer volume of big wins/deep runs he has + being spread over a decade of sc2 (including the Kespa Era) means he clears the rest. Yeah, he's not up to his usual form outside Korea, but he's still good abroad (back to back Katowice finals is still fantastic).
I agree Serral is the CURRENT best player, but in all-time results? I don't even think he breaks top 5 for me. Having zero presence in the GSL (or any longterm prep format to my recollection) along with having his results mostly concentrated to LotV just flat out means less in my book. Maru, Rogue, Innovation, Zest, Dark, TY, Stats, sOs, herO, soO and maybe even Classic deserve to be ranked over Serral in all-time performance.
I don't really understand the comparison between Shanghai and IEM Masters. Shanghai wasn't region-locked 100%, but if you didn't play your qualifiers in Asia you were significantly disadvantaged because 2017 Chinese servers were historically awful weren't they and that year there was no mediated point for EU to play EU with acceptable ping?
I think we need to accept that SC2 doesn't have a GOAT, like tennis will never. I'm a huge Federer fan boy, and I enjoy Djokovic. I don't either can be the GOAT when it was expected for them to lose at Roland Garros to Nadal. You can't be the goat when, even at your peak performance, you are *expected* to lose on a surface/format which accounts for 1/4 of the majors.
As a sports fan, one of my criteria is also that the GOAT must have fundamentally changed how one aspect of the game is played at some point in their career. Serral, Maru, and Rogue all fit that criteria, but I do think it is one that is overlooked quite often and should be considered. Sorry Lebron- you haven't changed anything.
The prep tournament point was bomb. That's real shit.
Arty, Flash is not the GOAT of SC brood war, Shuttle is.
as some of the comments touched briefly upon in here i think, specifically in the eSports scene, it is more nuanced than other sports, the tennis comparison is actually pretty close considering the fact Federer vs Nadal vs Novak is a thing which is similar to Maru vs Serral vs Rogue.
I thiink it matters on what metric you weigh them, as you presented it Arty, I agree, and I agree most people don't know what they are writing in the internet because of various reasons but if you consider other metric stuff like "innovation in the game, setting trends, people preparing for you specifically rather than the match up, domination through years, how other players are perceiving you etc" you can make the case for both Maru and Serral easily.
so, to summarize my bravado, i think its a great topic to discuss on a podcast like the Pylon show but to straight up do a click-baity title "sory guys rogue is the goat" is disingenuous at best.
but nice video per usual arty, love from Bulgaria
Ive said this before and ill say it again
GSL is hard BECAUSE players prep for you
But because 15/16 top players believe Serral is that strong, any given day any given tournament, they prep for him. They are playing him like they're in a GSL and he's playing back like he's on a weekend tournament. That's why everybody tries to trick Serral with the crazy builds and proxies.
When he actually preps back he wins the tournament 20-1 on top of the GSL goats.
Dark Rouge so much more power than light Rouge!
Ok, I didn't quite agree with you before, but now I think we are on the same page. I personally am not fond of Messi. I'm also not a big Cristiano Ronaldo supporter, but I certainly like him more than the Argentine. Certainly Cristiano has made much more money, is more recognizable and more versatile on the pitch. However, when you look at the achievements, the number of international trophies won and personal awards, then there is not the slightest doubt that Messi has achieved more in soccer. And this is where our paths of reasoning converge. GOAT to Messi and GOAT to Rogue (even though I like Ronaldo more and I like Serral more).
all i know is arty aint scared of noone and lets his balls hang lol. my man
if it comes down to it and we need to compare sc1 to sc2, it's going to be hard to compare flash and serral since serral will not play on the same patch long-term like flash has, but the amount of dominance over his competition is pretty remarkable. 4-0 in grand finals is pretty nutty.
I mean, we should never mention one game like this. Like he 4-0ed in the final. Because you can also say he got 3-0ed in finals vs rogue and it was a speed run, i think it was over within 30mins.
@@rsanghi24 That day I confirmed that Rogue was the goat. He was pretty chill and cheesed Serral over and over.
If you're gonna talk about his dominance, bring up how he won with such a ridiculous map score over the event. Not the 4-0 finals that had 2 very close games.
I disagree with this assessment. Everything related to the careers matters either way the goat debate, not just the on paper statistics. For example, Bill Russell won 11 championships and is heralded as an all time great, but he’s not even close to Michael Jordan in the goat debate, who has 5 less championships.
Sometimes what a player does for the game culturally overshadows the statistics. MJ stands alone not just because of his victories but because he transformed the entire culture of the game.
In this regard I believe Maru and Serral had a greater impact on the game, inside and outside of the game itself. They have outrageous statistics and took the game to new heights, and were paragons of consistency, more so than Rogue imo.
life WOULD have been the goat of sc2. not even remotely debatable in my mind. I do agree with Rogue being the goat. he had easily the highest peak in the most difficult era of sc2. when he really wanted something, he wasn't beatable
Nah, I'd win -- Dark
Avilo is the GOAT!
It's not only about how much you win, but also how hard you win. 👄
Counter argument: Rogue and Serral are patch zergs. Maru is the true goat.
How can you claim Rogue to be the best ever when he himself said that Zerg was overpowered?
Lol patch zerg. Which patch do you mean... oh just every patch since 5 years ago.
which zerg had results during the dark days of WoL and HOTS 🧐 if only there was some dude that had multiple second place results across all patches
yes. can you say 'A-move baneling'' ?
when behind, balance whine
It isn’t unique to StarCraft, people across sports and esports have no concept of scene strength or time. In basketball there’s ’we’re done with the 90s’ to discredit Michael Jordan and say the current best player is the goat, in league no one watches eastern regions so only values their international tournaments and discredits their equivalent of gsl.
And people have no ability to compare the field to the level of the top player. They’ll consistently consider a strong player in a weak field and an amazing player in a strong field as the same with no evaluation of how significant are those wins. Lastly most people have a recency bias either due to poor memory of older results or because they’re new and don’t know about older results, so the current best player is massively boosted in their minds.
All to say nestea undisputed goat no contest
THATS RIGHT MMA DOMINATED MVP MMA THE GOAT
GSL WAS region locked in 2010 when I flew to GSL I had no access to training to use the Korean StarCraft server I needed to be into their social security system the only way I could play was at the tourament.
No it was not region locked just because they didn’t let you play doesn’t mean it was locked.
Just because they didn’t let a “nobody” (not trying to be mean but you aren’t a top player) that’s not region locking its them flat out saying hey Koreans win everything so let’s make events where they CANNT join
Even if the 2010 GSL is locked, can you defeat the 2010 GSL champion? :)
Top 16 GSL Code A Season 3 and 4. Before me they never casted code A I complained to management and I got an illegal account after season 3.
@@fatboyjr364 Your as delusional as Artosis probably worse actually. I come to Korea I can't play in NA ladder too laggy and not allowed on KR ladder your basically crippled unable to train. I play race random so that means I wasn't able to train until season 4 and even in season 3 I was still top 16 with no ability to train even after living there a year. Your wrong, and they also rug pulled both the foreigner house plus the regular hotel they said they could cover for. I ended up homeless living in a jimshibang the cab Tasteless got me left me Shincheon. I ended up seeing them there months later and Tasteless bought beers good times. We played SF4.
It was so region locked that tons of foreigners qualified for it.
Does anyone know when Rogue will be back from military?
very soon
He's back
Have to also consider competition as others here have been alluding to. SC2 today is not SC2 at its peak. Sure, globally more good players, but the top tier has dropped off a bit.
In my heart, Life was the best. Not always the most dominating - but he usually found a dramatic way to win. He beat the best of the best in their prime. Might have flamed out in the long run if he wasn't caught throwing games for money, but he also just as easily could have been the most storied gamer in history.
3 things :
1. with your criteria, we can say that rogue is the most complete player who is able to win in any format. But the Goat doesn't just win, he dominates for the entire history of the game. Rogue can win a tournament and completely fall in the next one (if I recall correctly).
2. did he win in a patch when zerg was weak? (it is a question, I do not know the answer)
Because they had to create unfavorable maps to stop Flash in ASL.
4. Maybe, the answer to the goat question, there is none or, more precisely we cannot say. They are 3 candidates: but Serral didn't play in GSL, so we don't know.
Votes for Rogue
I don't hold it against Europeans for not winning GSL, and I don't think Koreans beating Koreans means anything to prove you're the best. If all European greats played in the open cups, then despite winning those wouldn't mean much because beating Koreans as well for achievements would actually mean something to prove you're the best at the time.
I never seen Maru or Rogue go through Serral for a GSL. I don't know if winning one would prove they're the best.
I don't think Rogue was ever as dominant as Serral has been over the last 5 years. I wouldn't compare Rogue to Serral.
I personally disagree but your argument was very good. The two key aspects I disagree with is head-to-head and what tournaments a better than others. I do think GSL’s beyond the year 2021 are somewhat overrated.
I spoke to my SO about what should qualify a person as the GOAT, she recommended that it be the player that patches/ tournament organizers did the most to nerf.
If a person is good enough that they have to be consistently targeted to be kept down, then they are the best GOAT candidate.
I haven’t given this enough thought yet, but it seemed to me to be a possible alternative way to establish GOATness.
The issue is that this assumes nerfing is being done intelligently and reactively.
What if the devs are stupid and don't nerf when they need to nerf?
Rogue can be the goat, but Serral is the people's champion.
Rogue was the goat when banes were op
Gotta win in high pressure situations with the stiffest competition to be the GOAT.
Luckily this isn’t a team sport or it would be Jordan vs Lebron all over again.
I have a steep thesis: there is no GOAT in SC2
Votes for Serral
TAEJA IS THE BEST EVEN WITH HIS INJURY AND HE HAD TO RETIRE EARLY DUE TO CARPAL TUNNEL!! HE IS THE GOAT!!!!!
If you didnt' take a GSL before Heart of the Swarm you'll never be the GOAT
Dominating 10 years after the proscene is not even a shadow of it's former self is not GOAT material imo
Before Flash became the GOAT of SC1 Boxer was the very easy GOAT despite being pretty far out of his prime and obvious other players that were better. Though if you count tournaments Nada may have had him beat I think. So there is more to it than just highest skill like you were saying, but even a bit more beyond even just tournament counts.
Yup Byun is the true goat
Why are we still pretending Florencio is not the GOAT?
Maru
Maru is the goat. if not INNO
GSL genuinely is a different kind of tournament than everything else. It’s literally a full season every tournament. The fact that it goes for weeks, that you have time between rounds and opponents sets it apart from other tournaments. There’s a layer of both chess and thought about the game that time gives you when playing in GSL. I genuinely don’t understand why it’s so hard to understand? In literally every sports game you hear people talk about “watching the tape”. Professional competitors take the time before upcoming matches to study their opponents strengths and weaknesses, their quirks, their preferences. Having a tournament that runs for 4-6 weeks and a week or more between when you play your next opponent while knowing who that opponent is makes GSL a very unique format.
I don’t agree with Artosis that it’s no big deal to go to Korea to play in a GSL, but that doesn’t make GSL that much less important. I think it IS the most important tournament outside of the world championship.
Are esl's played in one weekend?
@@mauriciorossi8477 ESL Dream Hack Valencia started July 1, 2022 and ended July 3, 2022 - so, 3 days long. I’d call that a weekend.
IEM Katowice started February 8, 2024 this year, ended February 11, 2024. This one was 4 days, but still quick.
Dark mode is the real GOAT
I still can't believe how can you act like gsl is comperable to any of those tournaments serral has won and you skipped many many more that had really stacked lineups.
But since you like facts so much here is thsi for you.
The last gsl rogue won he had to beat: nightmare, zoun, ragnarok, ryung, byun, creator, and dark to get it. Thats such a pathertic line up its kinda depressing how far gsl has fallen.
For serral to win TSL 9, a tournament you didn't even mention serral had to beat:
solar clem gumiho reynor showtime and maru.
That was about a million times more difficult bracket. This is the problem, you can't ignore the fact that many other torunaments nowadays have a better player pool then gsl, so acting like gsl is as important as a blizzcon or kato for the goat conversation is ridicolous. GSL is incredibly overrated
But in the end I defenietly agree that rogue is very close to serral and imo faaaar ahead of maru. But if you properly rate gsl and acknowledge all of serral's achievments he is just a bit but confidently ahead of rogue
Where are DH SC2 Masters ? Serral won a bunch. They are worth as much as GSLs
serral is the goat here is my reason because.
its either maru or rogue definitely not Serral lol
Maru isn't even worth discussion for GOAT LOL
No post 2017 Zerg could possibly be the greatest player of all time.
It would be like winning the Tour De France with a motorbike while 1/3rd of the participants still have training wheels on.
Rogue's never beaten Serral offline, and Rogue flops as often as he slays. Check mate, atheist
Artosis says head-to-head is irrelevant, but his argument against it is to name multiple players that aren't anywhere near the GOAT convo of their respective games taking games off the greatest. Rogue and Serral, however, are both unarguably Top 3 all-time, and Serral has never lost an offline tournament match vs Rogue ever. This would be like Jordan being undefeated vs Lebron in head-to-head matchups. It's pretty damning, to me.
It's not taking games off the greatest, it's top players having winning records against the greatest. You're confusing yourself comparing 1v1 to team sports. Keep it simple, there were periods in which Magnus Carlsen had losing records against top 5 players, he was before, during, and after still #1 undisputed amongst his peers because his results were too strong. This is what Arty is explaining.
@@rahawalaMMA isn't in the discussion for GOAT. Effort isn't in the discussion for GOAT. Those players that beat Magnus weren't, either. Rogue and Serral, however, are both in the discussion for GOAT, and again, Rogue has never won a single offline tournament match vs Serral. Head-to-head between 2 of the greatest to ever do it, especially when it's this lopsided, absolutely does matter.
I don't think you want to make this point because I have an American football comparison that knocks this mindset down.
Tom Brady is considered to be one of, if not, the greatest quarterback ever after winning 7 superbowls (the big final game vs 2 teams), one of those superbowls Tom was on a different team. He also showed up for I think 3 more superbowls but lost 2 of those superbowls to another team who had Eli Manning as a quarterback. Eli only won those 2 superbowls, making him 2-0 against Tom. Literally no one says that Eli was the better quarterback unless they are trolling.
Oh and in case picking out 1 player in a team sport doesn't sound right to you, we can just compare the teams instead. The Giants are 2-0 against the Patriots in superbowls, and the Patriots have won 6 superbowls. The Giants are the GOAT? I don't think so.
I do think Artosis is being pretty biased in his arguement and I think you do have a point
yes I think tornmaments vs offline play and a number of things are not the same but still
You can't just bring in head-to-head in a GOAT discussion if you don't apply it to every other player as well. If you start applying it for Serral, Rogue, and Maru, then you have to start applying it for everyone else too.
And historically, head-to-head was never a good representation for GOAT (Examples Artosis gives)
I dont know why people care so much.
Do tennis GOAT
TAEJA IS THE BEST IDGAF!!!!!!
the older tournament wins kind of don't matter as much, 2017 was not the same game. but i do agree Serral hype is overblown by white fans for some reason
Cue Dwight: False.
What about gsl vs the world tho
Artosis, let me help you out with this one... Everyone understands this comparison. Michael Jordan is the GOAT, hands down. Is MJ currently the strongest player on the basketball court today? No, of course not... BUT that doesn't mean that MJ is not the GOAT. I feel like that's what you are trying to say here, correct?
MJ is not the goat hands down, old heads argue Kareem, and younger people argue LeBron.
Wrong! @@schwanimal
Wrong!@@schwanimal
@@schwanimal Nah most old heads think Wilt is the GOAT. People generally think Kareem is better than Wilt but some of the old heads LOVE Wilt.
Terrible example, many people argue for LeBron over MJ. You might disagree, but a lot of people will have that discussion. You are one of the people making terrible arguments. He literally addresses this exact argument in the video.
He's counting GSLs that Serral didn't compete in. I think he just wants Serral to go to Korea like the Koreans went to HSC.
He's counting what he analogizes to the Wimbledon of SC2. His point is that if you don't win Wimbledon, you're not the GOAT. It doesn't matter whether you choose to play in Wimbledon, it simply matters whether winning Wimbledon is important for being the GOAT.
Artosis doesn't see any reason why non-Koreans can't go play in Korean Tournaments. I think it's fair enough to count those as tournaments Serral "skipped".
@@yaboykirby7789yea man all these korean tournaments that naniwa, idra, thorzain, reynor, scarlett, juanito competed in… DAMN THEM
Europeans should have an offline cup quarterly to ask Koreans why they don't travel for it to compete in it. This way they too could get a count up to show how well they did against people of their region for "GOAT" status. GSL measures how well Koreans could beat Koreans.
@@kmurphy0620 why didn’t they 🧐
It seems like the real disagreement comes from if (and how much GSL's) count.
Worth boting that if Serral keeps his status as best player in the world and picks up 1-2 more world championships then its pretty easy to hand that over to him, the GOAT status is still being fought over and if Serral, Maru, or Rouge want it, they have the opportunity to earn it
he still wouldnt have the hardest most respected title tho thats the point... no one is saying he cant though, most likely he can. but still he hasnt
offline tournaments are just a much, much better showcase of your actual skill for many reasons.
Novak has the most Slams and Masters, but he is not considered the goat. Much more people think Roger is the Goat, since he was the most dominating player at his peak.
Or like in NBA, Lebron has tje longevity and statistics, but more people have MJ as the undisputted goat. Why? Because he was more dominant
lebron only has longevity, statistics stay with michel
It'll be interesting to see if anyone tries to actually dispute these facts, so far I see mostly comments with dumb ish like Serral 4-0'ed Maru so he's the GOAT (ignoring the fact that Serral himself has been 4-0'ed in grand finals multiple times, not that this stuff matters in evaluating someone's record anyway).
1) I Would argue Artosis is being pretty biased
2) Rogue vs Serral, Serral never lost a offline tournament vs Rogue at all ever not a single match thats pretty Strong arguement of Serral vs Rogue With that being said I do think Artosis makes a point of tournament winnings and a few other things dont matter to much, but I disagree with it to a point
3) Ok playing ladder and doing things like that your more likly to experiment and thus have something go wrong and lose matches but you bring your A-Game to tournaments it dosnt matter if its online or offline however so the #2 point of Serral never losing a single match vs Rogue in offline tournaments should 100% be taken into consideration but Artosis ignores it
4) Maru has brought his a-game to Tournaments and wins them Look I Get tournament winning $$$ or wins is not a great arguement as if you just join as many of them as you can your going to get more wins via that way vs just someone who only focus in a certain tournament or such, But still you can make an arguement that Rogue / Serral are like Patch Zerg players, Maru is also only 26 f-in years old thats young AF, If he wins like 3-4 more tournaments in like the next 3-4 years im just going to roll my eyes at anyone who claims he isnt the GOAT, Well Kinda, Admitly I do think who he plays against and how he wins is fair game
Example Tom Brady vs Peyton Manning I know some ppl are going to argue Tom Brady as the GOAT / Better then Payton but I would argue against it, Defence wins Champs and the one time The Colts had a better D then bottom monkeys they where able to win with Peyton, And when he was with Denvor who had a better D? They where able to win, The problem is Games like Football (American football) Are Team Games, Offence sells tickets Defence Wins Championships, But most ppl rather just go with the guy who has more 'wins' even tho Brady is a great QB dont get me wrong, he was with the NE Pats for the longest time and honestly they been involved in SO MANY Cheating scandles that its just roflmao stupid to say his record is spotless or such
Hell Case and point, Alex Smith record is playoffs in terms of stats is HUGE, Sure he may not win a ton but his QB Rating in Playoff games are off the charts or where, The problem is his team tends to fumble the ball around or just do jack shit, He didnt like the game when he was with SF vs the Giants his fucken special teams eating butterfingers and fumbling the ball giving NY Giants the fucken ball so close to the goal line multible times is what lost them the game he was WAY Better then Eli in that game over-all, His Team however was butter finger fumbling idiots
Alex Smith was able to out Breese Drew Breese with the SF 49ers as well in that division game back when no one believed him
To me Alex Smith is one of the most under-rated QB Out there but coz he started off badly the first few years and his team treated him like shit he never got to win a Super Bowl Becouse of it
the game was a Machine honestly and anyone who truely knows American Football would tell you that Alex Smith is/was of the greatest QB during his time period, But was pretty much in shit situations.
Sir, this is a Wendy's
I would say what COULD cancle out the GSL wins is if Serral beat Rogue in at least 4 of those tournaments. You've convinced me, but Rogue didn't have to play against Serral in the GSLs he won. If Serral beat Rogue in all those tournaments the argument can be made that he only won GSL because Serral wasn't playing.
in terms of achievments? Maybe Rogue.
But in terms of mastery of the game there is no way you don't point at Serral. If we are claiming to choose who is the Greatest of All Time, i think it's worth considering the guy who is always was mastering the late game, the absolute level of play of his race versus a guy who was Zerg's version of a cannon rusher even if he was extremely good at that, and didn't give a shit half the time.
You aint wrong RT EU stans just go “Serral BATCHEST” when serral has no WoL HOTS and even early LotV achievements. Strongest now = Goat is peak ape logic
just ignore the fact that rogue's real career started a year before serral's in 2017 and before 2018 maru has won like 3 torunaments LMAO
@@norberthiz9318 ooo did i say rogue was the goat? I said the criteria was shit. I didnt even mention rogue OMEGALUL
But since i know you want to make fun of my picks they are innovation/sOs. Hell even soO for consistent placings from WoL to his IEM win is better. Yknow being a zerg was hard before 2017
@@justinlai2035 If being zerg is so easy now and it was so difficult back then, why was soo's track record so shit after 2017 apart from one single big victory?
Thats the funny part how some people like you claim that the competion is so easy now and it was so diffuclt back then, but why then has inno or sOs not won anything in like 6 or 7 years? inno sOs and soo kept competing but where completely outmatched by serral rogue and reynor every tournament. And you forget that serral has been the undisputed best player in the world for more then 5 years at this point. none of the others can say that.
@@norberthiz9318 this is like saying "why didnt MJ win when he played on the wizards"
@@justinlai2035no clue who mj is, or what the wizards are.
People need to understand that GOAT means the most accomplished player, not the best player. Of course, best players will be the most accomplished so it's natural for them to be goats. But as of now, as Arty clearly documented, Rogue is the GOAT. Serral CAN become the goat if he keeps stacking his wins but he isn't currently the GOAT.
Serral of course is not the GOAT of sc2. Don’t get too riled up arty
1:26 : "Goat is about having the best record on paper, like looking at it and be like ok this guy won the championship most of the time or whatever[...]"
Why is that? Seems like there are other criteria that could help us evaluate "greatness over time", I don't know why you're bent on this one. Seems a bit arbitrary to me, but maybe you could address that someday.
Call me crazy but I’d say being the best player to ever touch the game makes you the goat by definition.
heh he said disingenuous, he read my comment (tho he didn't address my comment where I said it so maybe he just skimmed it)
On winrate, really tho, Serral doesn't just have a positive W-L vs like, other GOAT candidates, he's had a positive W-L VS almost **everyone** over the past 5 years.
On the *almost*- he didn't have a positive winrate vs Byun until like 2 years ago cause he kept getting killed by Byun bracket jumpscares when he was still relatively casual, as well as having negative winrates vs few players who retired before he hit the pro scene (like Happy)
Nobody who plays the game, nobody who has been playing the game since Serral came to power in 2018, beginning his reign as the dark lord of zerg, has had a positive winrate against him since.
Like Arty I know you're strongly in the rogue camp and nobody in YT comments is gonna convince u, but come on mang, stop downplaying.
Also, opinions on OSRS?
This guy is my GOAT.
Rogue speedrunned serral in a finals.
@@rsanghi24Online, and Arty just said those don't count.
I agree online isnt the same as offline but you cannot discount the sheer number of them serral has dominated.
I think youre kind of Cherryville picking here, mate. Youre leaving out a lot of serrals victories...
Artosis says that offline is different than online but he fails to explain why that makes one more important than the other.
Sorry @Artosis, Serral is better than Rogue. Always has been buddy, nice try.
IDK man, its hard to say that prize money 'doesn't matter' here at all, but then the difference between Serral and Rogue is GSLs? That is kinda sus mate. I'd call it a draw because regions and things don't math perfectly, lets get some hype for their next few matches going! The GOAT has yet to be decided!
Maru or serral are the goat not Rogue
You're kidding me. You're counting Rogue's Super Tournaments but only Summer 2023 among all of Serral's ESL Season wins? Well yeah Artie, when you cut out 85% of a player's trophies they do look worse than they are.
The point here was that these ESLs where region locked or online tournaments.
Maru is only 26. If he does win a couple world championship tournaments will you reevaluate?
He is injury prone though and has been dealing with multiple chronic ailments for years.
He'd probably already count his GSL wins, and put him over Serral for GOAT because he can prove how well he can beat non-Serral opponents.
Yes. He has won exactly 0 right now.
@@dew9103 Check Aligulac Rogue has never been the best player in the world. You can't call someone who hasn't had NOT A SINGLE MONTH of dominance the GOAT over Serral who has been dominant for the last 6 years. Rogue is a great flash in the pan to steal a tournament here and there, never the best, laughable GOAT.
@@kmurphy0620 yea, even now maru is not even the top player which is hilarious
nice vid
Where does Life stand here?
He who shall not be named lmao
Pretty sure match-fixing and practically destroying the reputation of SC2 in Korea is fair grounds for being disqualified from the conversation lol
He stands in prison
This. Rogue is extremely underrated. It sucks people don't talk about him much. He and Serral are my two favorite Zergs.
OK so head to head doesn't decide who is the goat but to completely disregard it from adding to the case for each of them is equally as dumb.
MC
Love the tennis analogy