Why You SHOULDN'T Be A "Technique Cyborg"... (How To Stay SMALL)
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- Stop posting stupid shit for clicks and comments, my guy. You're better than that.
00:00 Geoff Says Hello
01:00 (Excessive) Control
08:10 (Excessive) Range of Motion
14:00 (Excessive) Social Media “Optimization”
Book 1: SWEAT (beginners/intermediates)
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Book 3: Resurrecting Your Gains (intermediates/advanced lifters)
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There are a lot of factors that go into making progress in the gym. While I've always said that hypertrophy is a very forgiving adaptation that can be arrived at via leveraging many different variables, there's a VERY good reason that you see few top natural (or enhanced) lifters using the amount of control and range of motion that Dr. Mike Israetel has promoted at times during his "technique cyborg" series.
A little goes a long way, and a lot gets you nowhere.
Many people DO need to control the weight more. I understand what this type of content is a reaction to, the guy flailing around doing "bent over rows" with 80% of his deadlift. And yes, that was me. Many people should reduce the weight and aim to get a deeper stretch on the muscles, which has been shown to, on average, be better for growth. But that's not everyone. A lot of people need to let go of "optimizing" those variables because it's taking away from their progress due to sacrificing weight on the bar, progression, or effort.
While it's easy to criticize the form of Ronnie Coleman, it's decidedly unscientific to declare with certainty that he'd be bigger if he squatted "my way". Whether it's "full rom" or controlling the weight to the point where it looks more like yoga instead of lifting, don't let your identity become too wrapped up into any one variable, because you'll probably end up ignoring other ones. And they matter, too.
Controlling baby weight through an exaggerated range of motion is not the path to bigdom, and there's a reason that many of the lifters featured in this series were not spectacularly muscular. Some, by the way, were. There were some GREAT SETS featured that used appropriate loading, but most of them were a year or more ago. Some of the smith machine squats, pullups and leg press sets that I saw were truly fantastic...but recently it's been mostly sets that NO MUSCULAR LIFTER ACTUALLY DOES.
MEME SETS chosen for shock value, basically. Why would anyone highlight that? I ask myself the same thing as I see more and more of this content.
I've followed Dr. Mike and RP since the early days. I've probably watched hundreds of their videos at this point. Dr. Mike has never been shy about putting his controversial ideas out there in a way that most science based practitioners would balk at, but in the past year it really does seem like the formula has reversed. Instead of believing something and then putting it out there, topics, statements, thumbnails and titles have been deliberately chosen for maximum shock value.
This does seem to happen to many big channels, where they notice what content does well, then ultimately become slaves to the algorithm, putting out more and more ridiculous content to scratch that dopamine itch.
The cart is now leading the horse, where an unending torrent content merely provided in order to optimize the funnel of clicks-->views-->subscribers-->money. I know I'm not the only one who's seen this. And it's disappointing.
I don't have any solutions or advice, I'm just sharing my observations.
Controlling baby weight through an exaggerated range of motion IS the path to more gains, because the stretch is the most important part of the movement, and training in that stretched position requires much less weight. Just because the pro bodybuilders don't do it doesn't mean it's invalid. Most of those guys will grow from anything, especially with the drugs they're on. The people in these technique cyborg videos are usually beginners/intermediate. Completely unfair to invalidate their training style just based on how long they've been training.
"Controlling baby weight through an exaggerated range of motion IS the path to more gains"
I guess we'll just have to disagree there. And it's not just professional enhanced bodybuilders, it's natural lifters as well. Very, very few jacked natural lifters train like that for the majority of their sets.
I have zero issues with highlighting beginners, and actually think it's a great idea, if they are actually reasonable sets.@@mark_mayers
@@mark_mayers I think you need to make more gains before you can be the arbiter of what "is" and "Is not" the path to more gains bro
@@mark_mayersexaggerated range of motion doesn’t always mean a bigger stretch though, it could also mean that many people stop a set as soon as any ROM is lost in the contracted state, and then they don’t get as many good reps in for the stretched portion.
As a dr Mike enjoyer, I have to agree with you on this video. While he himself uses great technique with good ROM, I don't see him doing this kind of training shown in these clips. So it feels like he is just doing this kind of content to make more views
"Control the weight down but don't be a tryhard" - Bald Omni Man, 2024
Unironically, a very good point from him
this stuck with me as well, that's what i call a tidbit
@KillTheKiller89 *Golden* tidbit
That cue and that row variation will stick with me for a while.
1-2 second control is all you need, anything more is pointless
LETS GO HORSECOCK SOME BIG WEIGHTS, NO PENCIL NECKS HERE
AAAAAAAAAA I NEED A HERO
RICK DE LA STICK
Underated comment, needs more likes.
Pencilneck here, will this allow me to grow to be succulent, bulbous and grotesque?
🐴🐔
Science based programming. Bro based lifting.
The way God intended
Fuck yes
Based Bro Lifting
fuck science based. Logic and evidence is where its at.
I mumbled a “hell yeah dude” alone in my living room
I used to be very overly concerned with my form and technique. I think the main reason that this happened was because I was obsessed with watching tutorial videos. The people in those videos are usually showing perfect reps but their intensity is often very low.
Most tutorial videos use the bar or not much more, and that definitely changes a lot of movements.
You are dead right about using an empty bar while demonstrating lifts. It should be at least moderate to slightly heavy when you do. I get annoyed when I see form Nazis correct someone for not having "proper" form when they are lifting something way heavier than what these criticisers do.
great comment.
So what your saying is the Internet+autistic zoomers have made moving heavy things really complicated lol
yep. fake weights is now a thing too
This just UA-cam/social media fitness in a nutshell. RP's 'Hypertrophy Made Simple' series is over 3 years old. If the goal was just giving people useful info, they could've stopped there. But the need for a constant stream of content requires over-emphasizing things or just making stuff up.
There is repetitive content and then there is selling your soul for dollars…
I agree with this take. Certain methods of medical intervention have been discovered. We don’t need to keep innovating. Cars are also sufficiently fast and safe, we shouldn’t keep improving aspects of them.
I've seen good enough videos from like over 10yrs ago so we shouldn't be making any fitness content anymore. It's 2024 and people are still making "how to deadlift" tutorials when they could just read a book from the 1900's.
@@dragoph "Brother" I expanded on your sarcastic comment!
What you expect from bald ashkenazi who talk about money every video od course in the term of jokes he he he
The worst part about it is that Mike and Jared don’t even go to this extent with their own form. I’m all for big stretches, controlled eccentrics and safe lifting but they obviously noticed that their full ROM approach could become a lucrative crutch for noobs and capitalized on it
Yes, Jared and Mike generally have very solid form, and I think they know exactly what they are doing when posting ridiculous sets.
Am i missing something? I just watch the main RP channel and i've consistently seen Mike argue that progressive overload is neccesary and if you aren't failing within 30 reps, the weight is too light. For most movements, especially compounds, he recommends 5-12 reps close or to failure.
I legitimately thought he must have been talking about a different Dr. Mike.
@@justincain2702 No no, RP bad.
I was about to post the same thing until I saw this comment. Old Dr. Mike and Jared both got huge doing more typical style reps as best as I can tell. Now they're saying there's a better way. Most people will never achieve their physiques at all, enhanced or otherwise, so why should others buy into their spiel now when they obviously didn't take that path to get where they are?
He obviously still argues for all of that in his more serious programming videos (which he makes very few of nowadays) but the content that gets the most views like his shorts and workouts with other influencers he has become increasingly focused on „good technique“ to a point where loads just become laughably light with this technique cyborg series he has now started being a breaking point for many
Whilst I do love RP there are certain things they do which bother me. This being one of them. Another big one is that Dr Mike routinely says there is no need to train to failure and that it is detrimental to progess (from a S2F standpoint) but then routinely posts videos where they train so hard that they're puking in bins and collasping. Either that or posting that a set is RIR 0 when they quite clearly had more reps in the tank (thinking back to your RP v Lyle MacDonald video)
They have commented many times that these videos correspond to individuals at the final week of their mesocycle when evertything must be done with crazy intebsity
He trains like those videos every 4 weeks now. I'd say that's pretty frequent intensity. I think Geoff is right, he memes it more nowadays for the clicks. I also think Geoff mischaracterized him a bit when showing some of these really obnoxious controlled form lifts.
He admitted in a panel discussion with Dr. Helms that there are people out there that can train to failure regularly and recover properly session to session. When he switched to 2-3 RIR he had a burst of new gains. I think his own personal biases paint his views on failure training too much, that and I think super heavyweight elite enhanced lifters on average can accumulate way more fatigue than your typical intermediate/advanced natural.
he has never said there is no need to train to failure but he advises that you shouldn't train to failure on every workout, but more so at the end of a meso cycle - I agree with this
His definition of RIR is a good example of why you shouldn't obsess about technique. He stops far before failure just because his form has started suffering slightly
As a beginner I learned so much from the old Renaissance Periodization videos. They would release hour long videos delving into the nuances of every training variable. These days, they post 10 minute vids criticizing Hollywood celebs with a recycled sex joke every 30 seconds. I barely recognize the channel anymore, and it does feel like they are just posting to get clicks with no thought of actually being helpful. Really a shame.
I enjoyed those Hollywood celeb training videos at first but man the sex and gay jokes get old quick. Though it’s interesting seeing how some of these celebs train and the pure nonsense that comes out of their trainer’s mouths.
The old stuff is a great resource, they've done a lot and I guess now it's time to cash out.
Yeah, exactly…at some point there really isn’t anything left to say, but they have to, to make more money.
they still put out some good info and what are they supposed to do? refilm and post the same content every year? There's only so much new info coming out at any point. I do usually skip the hollywood critique vids but they're clearly targeted to a different demo than most of the channel. tbh the training vids are my favorite, I'm natty but nothing inspires me like watching juiceheads train
@@cx2900 Or they could do what every other UA-camr does when they run out of ideas, stop making videos and do something else, or make videos less frequently.
The two sides of the same small coin, the ego lifter and the ego movementer
real shit, learn to balance the ego.
Well stated
Exactly
if the first rep looks perfect, the 4th/6th looks slow or gets stucked midway and the last gets ugly as fuck, I'm happy
Yeah if it's "perfect" right to the final rep you weren't even pushing yourself.
For me it's go until it's 1-2 ugly reps. If that's more than 15 reps, go up in weight, & if it's less than 10, go down
Why would you take pride in ugly reps? Last rep can be ultra slow but still good
@@watsonkushmaster3067 if it's still looking good, you can do more.
@@watsonkushmaster3067 did you even watch the video? If there is no form breakdown then there is a 90% chance you aren’t working hard enough. If you were you wouldn’t be able to control the eccentric
That's why I just follow John Meadows principles. RIP the best.
I miss the Mountain Dog.
The BEST!
Its funny because you and RP are my go to UA-cam content creators. Lifting is like anything else in life. Learn all you can and take parts of everything that works for you. I'm the biggest at the leanest, imjury free because of you guys
Ever since making his training app, Dr Mike hasn't been the same.
I used to be a big fan of his style of saying "I think my strategy is better, but feel free to experiment". I used to watch every video that came out, but now I feel like I'd just waste 20 minutes of my time seeing a huge buffed up dude "going to failure" with 20lbs dumbbells on chest press.
RIP Dr Mike
That and I'm just generally done with taking advice from juiced guys in general.
I hope Alex Leonidas stops collaborating with them anymore because as GVS said, Dr Mike may become the new G Shred.
I really wanted to get that RP Hypertrophy app but man the price is beyond ridiculous for what it gives you.
Perfect Said.
You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain
Dr. Mike is appearing on a bunch of podcasts that are lightly related to lifting, so he is definitely trying to grow his brand and broaden his appeal.
Hearing Dr. Mike talk about anything outside of lifting and exercise can be a very painful experience. His other channel where he talks about other topics is just full of smooth-brain takes and libertarian garbage so maybe he should stick to the lifting.
@@Shadevortex2oh thank god someone has noticed this too. His political takes and opinions on social issues are absolute garbage.
We're all gonna make it brahs
Fuaarkkk
It Zeezzz
@@janoycresva919it big Lenny
Come at me brah
Zyzz didn't made it :D
This topic is the main reason I switched from Dr Mike to Eric Bugenhagen
Cause RP is boring AF. Sometimes the bros just wanna have fun. And Rick the Stick highlighting that
there is a middle ground though...
Eric seems like he's always on coke or sum
@@citizenz4640it’s a mindset
@@citizenz4640 AND WE LOVE IT
The idea is to have great technique and be very strong
No matter how good your form is, it will get worse after adding weight. You will just have to accept it and improve your form with the new weight. Get to 90-95% of perfect form and move on to heavier weights
I'm all about "good form" but not at the cost of progress. As long as you control the movement and don't do only half reps, you are good in my experience. Great video. Respect for making it
Still as authentic as you were in the beginning. Thank you and stay the same.
I've never been a technique cyborg myself, but besides all that my main goal in lifting now is to never be on a highlight reel of "Why are these guys always small???" 😅
Been waiting for this
One of my favorite things about this channel is that you have absolutely no fear when cutting down people's BS even when it comes from pretty famous influencers
He's a child
Thanks for being willing to put this put there, I've been following your channel and Dr. Mike's for a few years now and couldn't agree more. Still love Dr. Mike, but man, it's getting obvious what the channel goals are. 👊🏻💪🏻
Geoff is not weak lol. He's very humble. I've trained with him and seen him row like 90kg for 15+ reps. That isn't huge, horsecocking weight but that's respectable tonnage and he trains hard af.
Didnt he do 3 plate rdls for 20 reps or smth crazy?
Needed to be said. Great video. For what a random stranger's opinion on the internet is worth, I personally think that the video needed the last section. I think it pushes the point home really well and I think it's a fair assessment.
Thanks. I wasn't sure if I wanted to include that last part but it's been a bit absurd recently.
Great video my man!
For me, RP and Dr. Mike’s techniques are more beneficial on back-off sets and accessory/finisher type movements after the days heavy work is done
That was my takeaway from his advice.
I usually utilize his technique and Dr. Milo Wolf's advice on lengthened partials on my last set for extra volume while doing db presses. Bringing the dbs down nearly touching the biceps really is an insane loaded stretch on the pecs. No idea how much I'm going to personally benefit from it but I see no harm in experimentation after my time tested regular work is done.
Be GymBro Cyborg Insted)
How To Stay SMALL? fallow jason blaha he he
new tshirt
Great video!
1 hour after you posted this, RP posted a video titled “Most Important Muscles to Train to Look Sexy” 💀
Meh. So what. It was a video for women, and the partner to a great practical video they did a year ago or so for men. Most men who lift aren't trying to be pros, we want to look jacked, so he made a video saying side delts, chest, upper back, tris are what average people notice so if that is your goal, here's what to do. Not every video has to be for the .1% of people who lift with a show on the calendar
eh. that video didn't seem so bad. like out of all the things to be mad about at RP for this is the lowest one.
And??? that’s what some people are training specifically for LOL
I was a slave to the "optimized progress" for most of the time I've been seriously training (which isn't a whole lot, barely a year). Always aiming at the exact number I've wrote down in my app, sometimes doing one more rep... Recently I've discovered that I, in fact, have been holding myself back. I could handle way more weight than I thought. And I've let go of the "strictest form possible". I still try to control the weight up and down, but I'm no longer beating myself over not keeping up the "correct" tempo.
Such a relief.
Step 1: dupe someone (first clip) into training in a ridiculous way
Step 2: Praise them for it
Step 3: dangle their dumb training clips as engagement bait
Step 4: $$$$$
Literally the seedman model
Oh jeez that one is ironic as well.
It just hit me: RP focuses on the most optimal, scientifically-proven methods to grow, whether it's your muscles or your following.
Oooh RP would hate that comparison hahah
@@rickswordfire4774better to train in a way you enjoy
Best fitness video i've seen lately. Great job Geoff.
Wow what a difference the new camera makes amazing upgrade.
I like Mike.. extracted a lot of knowledge from his vids.
Subbed to see what you can add
You’re making total sense!
Okay, so after years of watching your content, this is my first comment, and it's not specifically about this topic, but rather about my own experience and how it aligns with this video. I spent three years in my novice stage of lifting (2016 - 2019) without making any progress because, as we all know, if we don't have abs, we're considered fat. I was following Greg Doucette, Kinobody, and AthleanX religiously, but one day it just clicked that there was something wrong with my approach. That's when I discovered Revival Fitness, which made me realize that bulking and gaining some fat is okay. Basement Bodybuilding helped me understand that chasing the next PR in the logbook is not the answer. Then, 2021 version of Dr. Mike, who taught me all the nerdy things about volume and programming. And finally, you, Geoffrey Verity Schofield, taught me that it's okay not to follow someone blindly, that science doesn't have all the answers, and that I should listen to everyone but ultimately do what is right. I guess right now, I realize that the content Dr. Mike is putting out is not that. So, at the end of the day, thanks, Geoffrey, for making this lifting journey fun again.
2016 - 2019 was legit coming out of the dark age it felt... I was kept to a DYEL too because I did starting strength shit when I first started going to the gym and yes I got strong quickly but I legit looked like a soft fuck until people started memeing on it. After that I was like "fuck this" and started incorporating broscience, oonga boonga mentality like "i just go in gym and lift as much weight within rep range". Never made as much gains in the last 3 years as I did before. I look like a completely different person after shifting mentalities. I no longer gaf what anyone says really but I do look at NH, GVS, bald omni man videos for some exercise selection inspiration and thats it.
My biggest takeaway is that science based lifting is fucking lame. Everyone has different bodies. We all react differently to different exercises, diet, etc. The entire field was and always has been overcomplicated.
By the way I think fitness goes through a lot of misinformation eras weirdly enough. I can name a few off the top of my head including the Starting Strength era which was rightfully memed on for aspiring bodybuilders
Dude, Revival Fitness opened my eyes too! I’d try to ‘bulk’ for a few weeks and as soon as I’d get just a little bit of excess flab on my lower abs, I’d bail on that approach and start eating my grilled chicken and broccoli. In hindsight, it was definitely some type of disorder. Now I enjoy what I eat and I’m getting stronger! Being lean and small is overrated anyways!
I was in a similar boat, though I was actually incredibly fit and not really looking to gain size or a ton of strength. I took a year off of lifting, and branched out to other recommended lifting channels, and it boiled down to just the basics. There is no "one simple trick" for X gain. I stopped policing my diet, and increased my calories and the weight was I lifting. I gained a bit of size, but put on a lot of strength after changing my training. I'm pretty comfortable now, though I'd like to do a cut this Summer.
I'm not sure if you realize that other influencers have said the same thing. "Go experiment for yourself". "If you get more stimulus from a specific exercise and great results, keep doing it.". RP, Jeff Nippard or other "science bros" and even Geoffrey have all contradicted themselves here and there. The silver lining is that they all agree on this premise even if they don't agree on the entire process.
Solid take Geoffrey. I think on a wider scale it feels like this kind of stuff has really ramped up over the last few years. Perhaps it's just more exposure and the consequence of social media shoving this all down our throats more often, but it feels like this stuff gets passed without qualification a lot more. It just ends up in the pile of ridiculous training advice which we're actually not supposed to take seriously, because it's good ol' lovable Mike or whoever else. It's all a bit *nod nod wink wink* he's making his money, and for that reason seems to get accepted as just part of the game.
That's the issue for me I think, because quite a lot of people who are complete beginners are going to try to emulate this stuff because they don't have the capacity to differentiate between what's right and not. I see very similar to this type of stuff even in gyms over here in the UK, the reach goes that far and people are taking it seriously. For guys like you and me who try to put out useful information, it's like now we have to battle against this stuff too from someone who was 'one of us' at some point, you know?
Yes, and most big creators don't want to call it out because, well, collabs are a thing and one of the better ways to grow on UA-cam. Ultimately beginners don't know any better in many cases and they're 100% the target audience because they're the biggest audience.
Well, not physically. Just in terms of numbers.
@@GVS Right and I think the collabs are part of the problem.
No one is going to collab and then call someone out mid-collab, so all the audience gets is more affirmation of these wrong ideas as it just widens and strengthens the echo chamber. For a beginner looking in, this message seems more and more legit because the larger voices who all collab together repeat the same message.
And it's all driven by money, not by truth.
I think the point about the audience for fitness content being beginners is a really good one. Beginners don't just need to learn how to lift, they need to learn how to learn. How to analyze their own training and learn from their mistakes. Dr. Mike's style of dogmatism is unhelpful because newbs (like myself) need to think for ourselves. That's what makes you and Geoff experienced. You've trained a lot and gotten big and strong and learned a lot about yourselves in the process.
@@JustSomeGuy496 "... they need to learn how to learn"
What a superb way to phrase that.
Tbch Iv used the app Iv done the training so thought I’d share my experience. ATG squats are about as deep ROM as you can get and felt great, cambered bar bench felt great, the super deficit rows I felt my spinal erectors more not my lats of upper back so that felt pretty much useless. And I even told my brother the same thing have good enough technique doesn’t need to be perfect but good enough then push it with effort. Mastering the weight doesn’t really apply with noobs too much. Also not in the video but one thing I never liked was the adding sets then the deload. I prefer more of a strategic way to add sets/ volume- I like step loading. Which the purpose is to master the weight to add more weight afterwards whereas just general accumulation didn’t really do that for me. Most of the biggest guys I know got big doing a proper basic ROM on basic lifts Squat bench deadlift rows pulldowns curls extensions etc. all done in a basic rom. And they all got super strong on them over time.
I have to agree with the last part regarding channel engagement. A few years ago I was a huge RP fan. I used their diet app with great success. But, ever since they released their training app the quality of the content has changed for the worse. Stick with GVS, NH, BOM, Faz, Hersovyac, Allan Thrall.
Hersovyac is very underrated
I like your list, but would also add Basement Bodybuilding. OGs all around 💪
@@nmnate yes. Basement Bodybuilding is a great channel. Totally agree.
Funny how Hersovyac trains exactly the opposite of how Mike says you should train, and he's top 0.1% of the most jacked natties on the planet
@@nmnate and Alex Leonidas
I'm loving this content!
Excellent content 🔥
Another reason to avoid becoming emotionally attached to people online and their ideas, I think RP has been the most useful channel in my lifting journey and it's obvious to me the change in content from 50min in depth videos to 10 min Hollywood workout critiques. The philosophy channel is also really weird and even in other podcasts his ideas are really bizzare, I remember him saying that the young generations having AIs as sexual parteners is a good thing
Been watching Dr. Mike for years, very concerning seeing the direction his content is going 😢
Like what?
Well done man! You have become my fav gym youtuber. You are pure gold in fitness industry
This more out of less weight and full ROM has turned into weighted Tai Chi
In the face of all these immense strides in sports science in recent years, the figure of speech "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" comes to mind.
Great vid!
100% agree. Mike's critique of Ronnie Coleman's depth given how huge his legs were was crazy 😂
Yeah but at some point you found out you weren’t making progress and went to the pharmacy. And that’s while you’re still in your 20’s with no serious risk of injury.
Looking good, but your advice is automatically not credible.
Ronnies legs were so big that I doubt he could go much deeper than he did on his reps
And now he's in a wheelchair 🤷
@@justincain2702because he refused to take breaks when injured. Not cause he didnt squat as deep as youd like lol.
@@justincain2702 What the fuck does that have do with his squat depth?
Glad you made this video. Been feeling this way about the RP approach for years now.
Whenever I'm training at the gym, I recall your videos & those faces you make while training hard till failure during the last reps 😂. Very inspiring ❤
Dr. Mike is impossible to listen to, now. His crude “jokes” every 3 seconds is intolerable.
True..
Idk I personally like them but I did notice I turn up more for jokes than the content of the videos (I do know most of he repackages to be fair)
Moral of the story: don't ever post yourself lifting because there's always a critic
Depends. You have to use logic to see if the crticism applies to you or not. Being able to filter out bad advice is good.
true moral if you're not a pussy: Post yourself lifting, because there's always a critic that can make you do better
Or post yourself lifting and laugh at the critics. 95% of the time if someone throws out a negative comment it's because they know they couldn't do it.
He is right lol. You people have no sense
@@cuteminired6550 Who said he's wrong? I just said "it depends". If you don't have the ability to filter out negativity and bad advice, then you won't last long on the internet before you feel like you're being bullied or harassed or whatever. The same happens in real life.
Thanks for including the "social media optimization" part... it opened my eyes honestly.
Great video sir
I love Mike and I'm definitely closer to the technique cyborg side of the spectrum but as soon as I saw his post I felt like he was rage baiting and I kinda felt bad for the dude in the video because Mike tee'd him up for the firing range. Sure maybe that row form is really great from an SFR perspective but to think you're gonna get huge rowing like that is like thinking you're gonna get rich from hustling people at garage sales like Gary Vee
This is a great video. I’ve simultaneously been on both sides of the spectrum. I used to do cable rows WAY too light, nowhere in the realm of failure. It wasn’t common on UA-cam to see people say to really push yourself, to not stop once you lose a tiny bit of ROM. And yep, I got absolutely
nowhere.
But then for compounds I was literally divebombing. I was taught from good old RIPPETOE to go as fast as you can and use the bounce to move more weight. This shit snapped me up. I’m still dealing with unlearning these form
habits.
You almost certainly want to be somewhere in the middle most of the time. Control your shit, but don’t be a little bitch especially with safe movements.
I think the Rippetoe method is why so many people don't grow from traditional compounds. They're training their CNS and tendons more than stimulating the muscle.
I think you should use more control on compounds like bench and squat so that you're actually stimulating the target muscle, but go harder on assistance work, especially if it's a fixed movement pattern that you'd struggle to move with momentum like a chest supported row.
You gotta train with intensity and intent.
@@DCJayhawk57 totally agree. I’m literally growing twice as much with 2/3 the weight on squats now, because I still push myself hard but it’s with control and intent.
Rippetoe, the original scamming dogmatic dirtbag who got a bunch of noobs who ignore real evidence to follow a fat fuck into the land of mediocrity. RP is similar with his full ROM bullshit, even though partials have worked since forever.
@@DCJayhawk57 Also just doing FAHVES on compounds and no accessories is a bit of a rut. That's probably why Starting Strength is a beginner program, designed to just get beginners familiar with the most usual good exercises.
I did SS first for like a year when I got to strength training and I did get good strength gains and decent hypertrophy beginner gains. But as I plateau'd, getting more variation and accessories in really helped me get forward.
IMO Starting Strength does help get a good strength and technique base but you'll need to move forward quite soon after if you don't want to be a beginner forever.
@@joe-protzlmao rippetoe never said you should divebomb. It's clearly stated in the book that it is harmful.
Great video
Well said 👏🏼👏🏼
I wonder if Dr. Mike's problem is that if you don't keep precise form, the trackiing feature on his app won't work.
i will say that those dips right around 7:40 looked solid. that man's gonna have a bulletproof upper body
Not likely as much as if his legs were behind him.
@@jasonshults368not really leg placement doesn't change much on dips, if anything having your legs behind your body typically creates some instability in the core which means a less efficient transfer of energy during the movement
Yeah that's actually a lot of weight he was repping. Funny how small he looked though.
You organically showed up in my feed!!! Well done Geoff!
The algo does exist! :)
Geoff. Another great video.
As a fan of RP and as someone who took 2 years off from the gym(not by choice). Their content was helpful in safely getting back into hard training. It also helped me to focus on technique to ensure im actually working the muscles i want to work and avoiding injury. Mike also says regularly that they tend to overemphasize tempo and technique for newer lifters whereas you can see from his own training it isnt as dramatic as an advanced lifter. Also as of recent he has acknowledged the benefits of lengthened partials but still advocates full ROM when possible which will help develop tendons as well. This being said ive come to appreciate your approach and will be implementing more of what you talk about to see how it feels. No reckless form but not a technique cyborg. I feel that we should be able to take and implement tips from different people in our training and ultimately see what feels best for us personally, with the clear goal of building muscle. And if we notice that things arent working then maybe its time for a change!
If the stuff that "Dr" Mike preached was all that, he'd either have one of the greatest, most optimal physiques of all time, or have a coaching resume to rival Hany Rambod. Jared would too, and yet somehow his physique is more goofy looking than Mike's. Food for thought 🤷♂️
Jared literally has a pro card, you don't know what you are saying
@@BigBADSTUFF69 Pro card from an organization that promotes gyno and a gut.
Good vid
I needed to hear this.
I think that Dr. Mike sometimes contradicts himself with full range of motion vs stimulus-to-fatigue ratio. In some movements going to full range of motion is going to have worse stimulus-to-fatigue ratio than a regular range of motion, because for that last few inches of ROM you need so much more effort than than rest of the movement.
As someone who priotizes technique over everything else, and preferes it is because 1. My body is fuckee up and doesnt move right, if im not discplined with my technique i will hurt my shoulders, hips, and knees again. 2. Lifting isnt my primary sport, and i need to really be on top my fatigue management, using a lot lighter absolute load is nessicary for weekly recovery. That being said i also used to ego lift for years, always being plateued, so having a technique focused mindset for me has been a win, win,win. Even though the absolue load has been lighter i generally feel stronger i wider ranfes of motion than i did before.
Me too. I like the full range of motion because I do muay thai. The stretch and control really makes me feel good about my flexibility not taking hit with me lifting.
But I do not really train for pure hypertrophy although that's of course one of the goals. I train for strength too.
@Lemjanmusic love to hear it I'm an MMA guy myself these days, and know what you mean, having stability and strength in extreme ranges of motion in those sports are essential.
This kind of video is why I appreciate your channel. There has never been and probably never will be some fountain of gains lifting discovery (peds are hardly a fountain for their bodily cost). Only so much really needs to be said on lifting and once you pass that point theres little else left to offer. Thanks for keeping the conmunity grounded and probably opening up a lot of peoples opinions on strictness
Excellent stuff here
I watch a lot of RP and I agree with almost everything you’ve said . However, I don’t feel you’re giving Dr. Mike credit where it’s due, he talks a lot about the importance of intensity and has addressed numerous times the pit fall of becoming so focused on having perfect dialed in form and mind muscle connection that intensity is sacrificed. He has always stressed the importance of training hard. However some people definitely take his advice on form and control and focus on it at the expense of other variables- but that’s really not what he’s saying. I think he could improve this by putting out some more content on the importance of intensity and effort. I think this is a great video and a great reminder (even to myself) that you’re not going to get very far without effort and intensity. Also the remark about Ronnie’s hack squats- Dr. Mike almost never speaks in definites- it was a relaxed conversation with the boys and he definitely misspoke but I don’t agree with making that a cornerstone argument. It was casual conversation and I’ve never heard him speak that way on his structured educational videos. Great video though man I think you’re spot on in the overall message.
I think dr mike's content actually kind of confirms what you are saying. Control is important but he never says to overemphasize control.
Yeah, this video was dumb and worthless.
100% people are acting like Dr Mike doesn't constantly say to do what works best for you even if a study says it's wrong
does he actually say this? i havent heard him say that cuz all i hear him say is everyone is training wrong and he knows everything@@dylanthompson8338
He even made a video specifically about that over a year ago. He likes the control because it makes the lifts harder.
Really good video
Somebody had to make this video, thanks for always keeping it real GVS
You don’t have to use baby weights to control through a bigger rom. The reason less weight equals more gainz is because you’re able to focus on the muscle that is supposed to be working. When i go “heavy” on db incline i never feel my chest working /never sore the next day. However, when i drop the weight, pause in the stretch position, then press, my chest is pumped/burns and sore the following day. Why? Cuz my mind is focused on working the chest not pressing the weight. This is an example and used for exercises i have trouble connecting with. Cbum trains similar, Wesley Vissers, hanny rambod train his athletes similar, mike van wick, jonni shreve etc. Can you “toss” weight around and make gainz? Sure. But personal experience my arms seem to make all the gainz while my back stays the same lol. Also, heavy weight all the time significantly increases risk of injury. Train smarter not harder.
i dont think dr mike has ever said to only train with light weights, or to master a weight before going up though? his main thing is progressive overload...adding weight and/or reps each session
Damn! Just what I needed for today's training
Nailed this video Geoff
people should see that other elite naturals like yourself agree with this message!
is it just me or does mike isreatel looks like homer simpson?
ROMer Simpson
Maaaarge, my SFR is out of control...
@@mtchll_chndlr 😂
A mutant baby that grew to the size of a man in mere months.
I saw better growth after I switched to using techniques that make specific lifts more difficult (e.g. they require less weight). With a lot of exercises (curls in particular), going really heavy without strict form causes me to recruit a lot of strength from muscles I'm not trying to train, which gets me a lot more fatigue for less training in the target muscle. Loading and ROM to emphasize the stretch seemed to help me break through a recent plateau too. I managed to improve my bicep curl by mostly doing lighter weight preacher curls.
There’s always a middle ground. Have enough control to where you’re lifting safely and targeting the muscle effectively while not lifting so controlled to where the tension and progression are negatively affected. Realizing what you need can be difficult without experience.
@@Soccasteve As long as you're reaching a high RPE and the target muscle is the limiting factor, having really strict technique shouldn't be limiting your gains.
I suppose you could do something like ending a set of rows when you can only raise the bar 2" from your chest, which would definitely be non-optimal. You could also standardize your technique so your failure point allows for some lengthened partial reps, so then you're not even doing cheat reps. I'd much prefer a lengthened partial to some cheat technique like using your legs in a row, since that would take load off the stretch position.
Form can also break down from using too much weight but I usually take severe form breakdown as a sign that I need to be doing higher reps. I'm not a powerlifter so 10-15 reps for some movements is fine with me.
@@Soccasteve the tension is very important everyone seems to forget that now, no amount of good form and slow eccentric can replace the weighted stretch that a big weight provides
Nerding about weights has definitely hindered my performance. I am naturally risk averse, but had to get used to "trying" heavier weights, even when I did not feel "ready".
following ur ig had me thinking ok u talked abt this b4 in multiple stories but in fact the vid still adds so much more context and rounds up the idea... great content
I think Dr Mike’s steroid use heavily influences his recommendations on how to perform exercises.
In that ped users are generally at more risk of connective tissue injury, hence the emphasis on super strict form.
I noticed some disagreements between Mike and Menno Henselmans when it came to form, with Menno saying something along the lines of “excessive emphasis on form shouldn’t come at the expense of performance”.
Yes I think he's very risk averse when it comes to his training and...I get that. I understand that completely. But when it bleeds into general recommendations it's going to be bad advice for a lot of the listeners, for sure.
They will look back and call this "the control era"
And laugh.
Awesome awesome video, the Dr Mike part was gold, respect
Thanks Geoffrey, I needed to hear this...
I have also fell for stupidly slow eccentrics and got nothing from it. Although mine was psychological due being scared from a bad previous injury
I agree, regarding Dr. Mike. I much prefer some of his older videos on the Juggernaut Training channel.
Favorite UA-camr by far
Good video, man. I've been looking forward to this one. In general, I think more people need to improve their form, but opting for ultra increased ranges of motion is not the way to go about that.
This is where I feel everyone should go through a gym bro ego-lifting phase at some point in their gym journey. Adding weight should take precedent in 90% of case. Then reps. THEN technique. That's what gets people huge. Technique should be a higher priority when the weights are so high that injury risk becomes a real issue or you just plain run out of weights to add. OBVIOUSLY your tech needs to be at a level where you are actually working the correct muscles for example going ham on lat raises or bicep curls or rowing the bar on deadlifts...
Well said. Heavy weights require the best technique and most control. It's similar to how a lot of beginners are worrying about SFR when they aren't really doing anything to generate fatigue.
Yeah and RP doesn't advertise that their advice is more for the advanced so newbies end up learning stuff much more complicated than what they need.
I think this a another example of why overemphasizing any one training variable over all others is bad advice but works if you are trying to build some kind of identity online as "the high intensity guy" or "the technique" guy etc. Instead it is best to consider all variables and trade-offs, experiment and modify based on your personal results.
13:39 I like the point of not labeling yourself as a type of training “guy”.
This has been a very important video for me. It's made me rethink some things. Also, I just love your channel, I'm so glad I found it.
Unironically I accidentally slam the machines against the stops occasionally on warmup sets (especially leg curls). Like... oh yeah, it's not heavy yet. Oops 🤣
I think improving your technique can definitely be beneficial, but there's a point where it's more of a detriment than anything else. Like no bro, you don't have to do a 7 second eccentric with a 3 second pause for a set of 20, just control the weight but don't be a nerd about it.
Good video.
Louie said something to the affect of "Move 135 like it's 315 and move 315 like it's 135." jives with what you are saying.
I think preaching going deeper isn't necesarily bad but the overly controlled negative seems like a performance drain for meh benefits. I always found it weird that people could simultaneously say that iso holds don't do much and preach controlling negative like 5 seconds. I don't even think the nerd angle works that well, If you go full nerd and decompose a controlled negative movement, It is made of many fractional milliseconds iso-holds at different muscle length (slowly releasing the contracted position).
I feel like as long as you don't let the weight fully control your movement, that's slow enough.