LS On How EU Could Beat Korea and China
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
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#LS #Clips #Highlights
In Dota2, Europe has dominated other regions. This wasn't always the case, before the OG 2 year dynasty there was an intense rivalry between China and Europe. The way Europe took games off of China was by outdrafting and experimentation to throw off their mechanical edge. This, it can be argued, with the victory of Spirit in the last International, is still the case.
I wish I could get into Dota2 esports. Damn just to think amount of shit you need to know to follow lol.... :D
To be fair lol is A LOT more reliant on mechanics than Dota.
@@DelgaDude Thats why its harder to watch . Its easy to see out plays its hard to actuly know magro activitie
What do you mean by "it can be argued"? Do people think spirit outplayed ldg mechanically on their own territory there?
There's also an argument that the previous tournament format favor underdogs rather than the best team. Dota 2 teams actually study their enemies to the tee like the prep work fgc players do, but when the main stage games to the grand finals happen back to back, teams won't be studying underdogs that has a lower chance of moving on due to time constraints.
But I will say OG has some of the best drafting in recent Dota. Meanwhile Nigma is literally the T1 of Dota, you wanna root for them so bad and they have insane players in almost all roles, but they just do themselves dirty in draft every time.
This is another example why 2019 g2 was so dominant. They defined the meta, not the Eastern teams. Another big thing for them was that they could mechanically match/beat their opponents.
yeah - g2 won so much because of their crazy picks and the lack of the ability of the other team to adapt and play accordingly
idk about matching beating the lane to lane opponents - but at least they werent dumpstered - and even in lane a pick like pyke, yasuo or syndra - was already appling the "unexpected factor"
I was sure that other teams would at least try this out - sure its hard - but thats the way - this or you play 20h a day 7days a week for every week a year; if you want to have days off then you need to be smarter; not to mention that talent also just exists.
So even if you practice that much - there is much more to it - where you cant just beat them the "fair" way.
@@Linkingx2 idk man if it isn't clear that west won't win by playing standard after 12 years i don't think it will ever be
people are too afraid of trying new things when the new things is the only way they can win
A great example of this would be fpx a few years back. And the next year, when people expected them to perform, I guess expectations made them scared to try new things and they got crushed in groups.
@@manuman5319 well it wasnt as simple as that... but well yeah - expectations are a scary thing for teams / players
this is not a good example actually, i think 2019 G2 was good cus they were actually better mecanically than their opponents , caps wunder were literally insane that year
I think rekkles meant good draft as in the team can pilot the comp, whereas western teams can have a actual good draft but would not be able to play most champs good enough or well enough tgt that the pick is played to its full potential
Your profile pic speaks for yourself
Nah that’s called execution, and I doubt a player like Rekkles doesn’t know what draft means.
@@leonardofernandes8349 surely.. just like eastern players know when picking lee sin out of nowhere
@@neondarkcro697 i mean we have western players ego picking lee out of no where too, look at Rogue yesterday LMAOOO
@@leonardofernandes8349 if you can't execute what supposed to do from comp you draft, it doesn't mean draft is good.
You have to pick what you are comfortable with and east have an advantage for that.
When the Tigers picked MF support to answer Zyra out of nowhere, T1 didn't know how to respond and almost got reverse swept. They had to ban her in the end by how har she threw them off
best series ever FeelsStrongMan
Adding in: RNG vs T1 MSI (I think S4).
Leblanc hyped as Faker's signature champion
RNG counters with Morgana mid, a champion who had been relegated to support. Faker couldn't play that game.
Small correction though, it was game 2 when they picked mf
@@Heightren bit of clarification, it was SKT vs EDG MSI game 5 in 2015
@@Heightren If you watch that game then you'll see that faker popped off. In fact, it was just his team inting. He still played very well. Its game 5 of EDG vs T1 MSI 2015
This is what 2019 G2 did. They defined the meta at msi and worlds.
but somehow found a way to sprint it in the one game they should have won
It's kinda how FPX won worlds when nobody expected them to.
@@manuman5319 actually i wrote with some asian fans and in their eyes fpx was favoured from the beginning. But yeah they didn't expect a 3-0.
@@popamihnea6695 they should have won, damn that copium level=savage
I absolutely agree that pro league scene is probably the only e sports field where meta doesn't converge to an equilibrium reliably
@fck peace yes, yeees, let the hate flow through you...
@@niklasmitfussl2639 ignore him, spam every comment just to seek for attention. Idk whether he's an enthusiast troll/hater or a bot or, maybe, both. lol
In an alternate universe C9 keeps LS and is currently smashing worlds with crazy drafts and everyone is going fucking crazy at worlds.
but nah, its better to stay at your comfort zone
Sorry, we can’t have this timeline anymore, the NA fans, NA owners, NA players all want to die on their sword of continuing the same practices and promoting mediocrity while getting paid millions.
But the question is, does it feel good?
@@afraido3618 so true. Sad
@@gmnr1336 100% sad
there was a g2 iteration, with Hjarnar Wadid, completely shutting down teams with Heimer bot before the magebot meta, they had to ban it against them
I want to see LS's vision of LoL being played. I'm not creative enough to come up with picks like that on my own, but it just sounds so fun.
C9 gave us the taste of that but then removed it too quickly
Ah yes 5 enchanters on both team perma healing and just farming/scaling for 30 minutes sounds really fun to watch. Sure it will be novel for a while but once the novelty wears off even if it’s good, which it is, it’s undeniably boring to watch
@@lukaskrause6022 if it turns out this way it'd be nerfed and then something else would be needed to be found. Don't you think it's kinda stupid if this is as strong as you say and people don't use it?
One of the best things in LOL in my opinion is the innovations and teams generally lack in that. That's why it would be awesome to see LS as a coach again. Literally viewing numbers were way higher for C9 when he was the coach there for that reason.
@@viniciuslucio98 it is strong, people don’t use it, and it is stupid. I agree, teams are idiots when it comes to draft.
LS’ vision is the BEST way for league to play, my point is it’s also one of the most boring.
@@lukaskrause6022 please stop speaking about something you have no understanding of you fucking dogshit cretin
was just saying this to a friend of mine.
"we need to play our game, not their game "
very insightful video, needs more discussion and exploration for the west to learn and not just cope.
I think what might interest you would be the tekken competitive scene. Historically Koreans had always been by far pretty much the most dominant region due to many factors such as arcade culture and top players being able to practice against each other more easily because of the shorter distances between major tekken hotspots in Korea in comparison to NA. There were always notable players from Europe and NA but Koreans would consistently win. And then in 2019 a player from Pakistan came out of nowhere and convincingly beat every top player he played against in the third biggest tekken tournament of the year. And he fundamentally outplayed them playing better tekken than any korean including Knee, tekken's Faker basically. And after a while other players from Pakistan started competing internationally too and proved Pakistan as a region is as strong as or stronger than Korea, which made sense since for a player to get that good he needs a scene around him that's very competitive.
The thing that's interesting though is the difference between the two cultures seems to be irrelevant since optimal Pakistani play is just as robotic as optimal Korean play. It's all about practice and self-improvement. Which yeah this has not much to do with the video but it's not impossible for western players to eventually become as good as Koreans if they really want to. The fact that after 12 seasons Korean and now Chinese players are so dominant speaks volumes for their dedication.
On a similar note western players in street fighter are consistently able to beat eastern players (in this case japanese).
japanese are not not rlly good at competitive games tho
Group A: practices 6h a day, pls dont be rude if I do a mistake :)
Group B: practices 14h a day, gets gigafisted after making a mistake.
Group B beats Group A most of the time.
Group A: Why am I worse? I DONT GET IT!
Huray! Long live exploitation then!
They are still people, not robots, practicing to the point of exhaustion as you say is not good. Reality is not that you need to practice 14 hours a day as you say, but vs who you practice. LPL screems vs LCK and that makes their practice much more useful. + They play vs the best teams and players and against so many different teams. While in LCS is the same garbage teams without the possibility to play vs any other good or any teams unless you take a flight. And as for LEC the problem was playing always around how to beat G2 or FNC, which did make MAD and RGE better, but internationally they lack versatility.
@@liviuadrian1101 Yeah unless every LCS team also practice like 14 hours the result will still the same. Doesn't matter how much you scrim if you're VS shit team you won't get any better.
Its so weird when I see fighting game players all the time be able to consistently evolve the meta and develop strategies against the top tier characters through weird picks and strategies so that they can "punch up", but league players are so inept at doing the same thing. I really do think though that the constant patching of the game every two weeks has lead to players getting lazy in being creative and show ingeuinity in how to solve problems. Melee is a 20 year old game that still has a developing meta to this day. A fucking mid tier character (yoshi) was able to take down the greatest melee player of all time and win a major just recently.
Is because fighting games players study the game more than LoL players. FGC players care about learning how the game work nstead of learning just champions/character. Range, frame date, recovery of moves, + and minus of moves.
FGC also understand match up. They understand that some matchups are bad for mains so they develop situational characters that counter the tool of the opposite.
Example. Snake Eyez. Zangief player who played Evil Ryu against bad match up for Gief.
Daigo played Yun after Ryu fell off.
Punk played other character beside Karin as counter.
FGC do exploration about other character. They LEARN THE GAME. THEY LEARN. They know that the best solution is just to counter instead of saying "Ok. X character is OP. Nothing we can't do anything about it.".
League of Legend players think on "Mitigation" instead of countering. Another big part FGC study and try EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER in the game to understand how they work and study to see if this character got tools to stop their main character.
Meanwhile LoL Players:
I'm a toplaner. Only play toplane character. Aatrox,Renekton,Gnar,Ornn and the meta characters of the patch... Other character? Nope. Screw them. Don't even care to read what they do or how they work.
A 1v1 fighting game vs a team game where going out of the norm is against your best interest, if you are the guy wanting to pick illaoi mid you will get the blame if it goes wrong, now consider your teammates will feel uncomfortable and might even be tilted. Are you willing to risk your job for a favorable lane matchup?
@@RomnysGonzalez Making up stuff lol. We have seen LoL eastern pros say they play the game for 18hrs. The reality is LoL has the best the East has to offer. Popular game that attracts larger talent base. Most money aka worth while career. As well, these league get balance changes numerous times. Look at even CSGO/Dota2. Takes forever to get balance done.
The way they can win is by learning and then drafting certain champions that practically nobody would tipically play against and just stomp them. Champions like Ivern, Rengar, Sona, Fiddle, etc. The thing is that the players have no incentive to do so because they get paid a lot for playing on auto-pilot so why would they even try. It's sad.
really sad tbh. for almost 10 years we've been trying to "learn" from chinese and korean players, as if we could magically just "learn it better" (???), and then we are genuinely surprised when we lose playing the gameplan they have created, with the knowledge they develop, with the micro-macro gameplay they refine every single day. shocking!!!
@@matiasalejandromab A good point, I think for this to even be reasonable then NA/EU would already be AS GOOD as China and Korea, since if logically speaking they can learn the strategies and gameplans and how to execute them, then it would give be removing the advantage that KR/CN has gotten. Like, if EU = CN but CN comes up with good ideas and method of play, EU developing knowledge on this and learning it themselves wouldn't make them suddenly better, it'd reequalize the situation. The West can't win by just waking up one day and praying that they can execute a strategy the East has been playing for weeks in scrims when they show it being dominant on stage once. EU < CN (I am just using these two countries but you can switch around to NA < CN or other combinations, assuming NA or EU < CN or KR regardless, which I think is more than reasonable to state). Learning the things they do and practicing them only means they are slightly less ahead of you depending on what it is you are learning from them, and by that time, they only get better at it or innovate new things. Sad mindset.
maybe, but na can't even learn how to play fiora, jayce, gp etc.
@@matiasalejandromab G2 and fnc 2018-2020 were only exceptions.
Not sure where this notion came from that playing a non meta champ somehow shakes the entire core of the game where they have zero clue how to play the game. Like Faker will get shocked by an Ivern mid because someone said so lol.
Step 1: Pick Illaoi
Step 2: Recreate your favourite cartoons
Step 3: Win
HUH
THEY DONT PICK SCALING LIKE THEY SHOULD. When you are worse than your opp - you must outscale. SIMPLE!!!!
@@Habeev07 if you pick scaling the eastern regions thrive on early game snowball and you'll get cucked
what is crazy to me is that for example c9 won their championship playing a style. Then they enter groups saying "the meta shifted, our champions are not that great". Then 10 days later we have all the quarter teams playing yumi vs lulu, sivir aphelios, leblanc, wukong, poppy, trundle. (pretty much their championship style)
They are just stupid.
i can't understand how they saw the lulu nerf and said "ah shit this champ is unplayable now"
But the problem of this is like every year their trial and error is coping into this as well. Like a western region will do something new and eastern region will adapt into it deeper than the cheese itself, like they doubled their learning and eventually cut the things that western regions would gravitate into after the said cheese, like the next steps would just be stop and the cheese will just cease to exist. Why? because they spend more time than western regions does so it naturally became a disadvantage.
Going out of the norm is against the individuals best interest, consider that if the individual wanted to pick illaoi mid into sylas his whole team needs to be on board. He would also have to be prepared to take all the blame if it went wrong for whatever reason.
I was waiting for the Zac top from Odo. It would have caught people off guard so good and its actually so good into ashe heimer. He played in in the LEC regular season and then never brought it out again despite there being so many oppotunitys. I don't get that.
Hes right, one of the reasons why old G2 was styling on the eastern team (mostly korean). They have crazy picks, in all lanes.
Yup that's how they beat SKT. With their weird picks.
I mean the logic of win by tech is very possible but just because they're robotic like and very focus on mechanical play doesn't mean they're dumb. Having an edge on tactic could surprise them sometimes but can you keep out smart them over and over despite being fundamentally worse? Also to archive that tech you have to put the work in too you have to practice about match up harder which bring back to basic that they have to try harder.
He is completely correct here. A clear example of this has been the Heimer Support picks against TOP and RNG.
The Ashe/Heimer thing was a deliberate hard counter to engage heavy comps with short range botlanes like Lucian/Nami. That combo was getting through bans because Yuumi, Aatrox and Caitlin have been effectively perma banned. Nobody wants to deal with that shit.
But now that they have shown it, other teams will be aware of it and they will ban if it they see an opportunity to go OP engage but don't want to deal with heimer's shit either. Which means Aatrox or Yuumi gets through and you are back to the cold war state of eastern league of legends drafting.
I think the ban system is part of the reason why there is a lack of exploitative gameplay in league.
In Guild Wars 1, exploitative gameplay was on the menu 24/7, but then the enemy team can't ban classes or skills. Interestingly, it also has a deck building aspect to it like TCGs. Sometimes you couldn't even tell if some obscure cross class skill synergy was bugged, so better exploit it as hard as you can before Arena.net fix it. Without a system that allows teams to ban away things they don't want to play against, Arena.net just nerfed the shit out of any exploitative tech that rose to prominence.
That was a losing battle for them because in GW1's prime, there were a lot more players running ahead of the Arena.net police waving their nerf bats. They just didn't have enough people or enough bats.
There's nothing strange about it. Look at Tekken tournaments. Amazing players are often getting destroyed by obscure characters every year during huge events. There's over 50 characters with different move sets in that game. You can only prepare for so much. In ranked some characters you see once in 6 months, literally nobody plays them. You literally can't practice against all of them, so getting good at those can get you really far. It translates to LoL 1 to 1. Find good unpopular counters that break current meta play. Look for holes in standard play. That's what pro teams should be good at, but they just copy each other trashcan ideas and go with it for months upon months then wins are decided purely by mechanics and who's draft is more unholy
That’s basically how G2 won MSI btw
I totally agree. Havent anyone understand it yet? Why just why G2 went to Worlds Finals and won MSI and everyone was flaming grabbz? Cos he made wunder play neeko or whatever other "useless" champ these dudes call and how they actually won? It all comes to when you can actually play anything and make the opponent to not expect it. Obv when EU is gonna be picking sylas and j4 and cait or what so ever over and over again , how are they supposed to win? They have to change something they have to practice not harder actually but smarter , if lets say brokenblade was good in yone that pretty much he did well , he should pick it without any fear. Today T1 picked Yone and honestly enemy team had no idea on what to do...
Disagree. G2 won because of match ups. They did well into Korean teams because they did nothing in the mid game. They would afk and wait for drakes. G2 ignored drakes and played for side lanes a lot better than SKT did. It's why 2020 was a huge turning point since KR teams got a lot faster and drakes were more important. Both the downfall of EU and G2 trying to content Korea.
FYI, that G2 legacy team only had 1 single win vs a CN team.
0-2 vs IG
0-3 vs FPX
1-2 vs SN
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg This is literally what i said. What i said wasnt about picking draft only , it has to do with doing whatever you actually feel comfortable with and trying not to just path with the meta. They found ways that worked out for them and korean teams at least couldnt control the map.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg 3-2 vs RNG. wrong.
In pro scene, Dota2 just has real coaches and captains that actually think which makes the game more interesting through drafting, game plan, and how their game is supposed to be played to have the highest possible chance to win
Also with 7 bans each, it promotes hero diversity and makes replayability enjoyable.
League may need more ceiling in mechanics on very specific champions but overall Dota2 is a more polished game. You also dont need third party programs to watch pro players from different regions on how they play their game. (You dont have to pay costream just to watch their POVs in pro scene).
Fun fact : pre-patch 12.12 Nasus E would kill Heimer turret but after HP buff the turret now live with like 10-15 HP :)
Absolutely agree. 2019-20 G2 was so successful vs LCK teams not because Perkz was better than them but because he put them in unknown and unpractised grownd. G2 being able to flex literally all mages and bruisers not only between top-mid and jg, but also bot was their success basic on which G2 built their friendship-like realtionship in the team, plus of course all players' experience, etc. adding to the great results. If this G2 can somehow find a way to surprize in draft and play style the eastern teams then they can have a chance of advancing far before the eastern teams figure them out ( because they are very good at analysing too).
LS is spot on
Whenever the NA or EU teams did well in any international events regardless of the skill gap is innovation
Like for example you take SION support and an HEIMER bot
This combo is lethal in the fact you can set up plays rather easily even if the wave start is not in your favor
You ult with SION followed by the Q stun then HEIMER turrets + bouncing grenade
The eastern team would be thrown for a loop and thus by having SION as a reliable engage you just could also steamroll the opponent in teamfights
Obviously after seeing the matches where this strat work the EASTERN TEAM will adapt so you need a WESTERN TEAM which can keep the opponent guessing and then brute force their way
G2 is such an perfect example for this cause you see WUNDER going PYKE and T1 didn't even expect that curve ball thus leading g2 to smash t1 in both MSI + WORLDS that year
It took Eastern teams 2 years to make top 4 at an international event in Valorant.
tbf...western regions already have a lot of experience and the culture is already there for shooting games. Switching from 1 shooter game to another is way easier than switching from dota to LoL.
I agree completely, mechanical and practiced things East is way better, but the only way to beat this is draft completely "out of meta" champions that the Eastern players are not familiar with (trading patters, damage they do at certain item breakpoints) therefore even mentaly they will be shaken and out of place in the current game. I'm actually baffled that the players themselves can't come up with by their own, there is hundred of games where they play against a one trick in soloq and they get bodied. Coaches I will not comment on because there is no way they are not just impostors.
This video should be watched by all western coaching staffs
Classic art of war, like literal components of it. Sun tzu says that to know your enemy and know your self you will surely win. So when the west plays the same game as the east they end up in a situation where they only trade down, the east knows the META MAP better than the west does. But if you do what LS is saying and warp the game state and the world, suddenly the east does not know the enemy. DRX did this to great effect in groups on day 2 and in the EDG game, the heimer changed the draft fundamentally, while EDG was able to beat it 2 games it was still banned in games 4 and 5, same for DWG VS GEN G IDK the exact extent that Geng prepared for Canyon's Kayn but it didn't look like they were super ready for it.
You can even look in play ins where MAD played DRX when Eloya played the Belveth game, DRX coudln't control the jungle, they weren't aware of what the pick could do. DRX ultimately won because they were given a Baron dance and ZEKA smurfed it but it MAD winning for most of the game.
LS's take on this is very true. League community should learn from other eports to advance the game. Look how in some league games they stagger deaths for objectives like in Overwatch. Pretty sure LS used Smash Bros as an example too.
Its realy a shame that most teams are so META oriented i understand the need to play certain champions are buffed but sometimes players and coaching staffs tend to forget easy interactions, i dont know if its scrims that creates this but for example what happened to MF/amumu bot it dominated the tournament early but now it seems forgoten.
Play-in teams are bad thus easy to execute comps work well with them.
Afte the GAM vs TES game I still don't understand how Karthus isn't pick or ban, like GAM played so much worse and still managed to win, you all can argue about the bug that happened there at the end but it still doesn't change the fact that TES should have turbo stomped GAM and it was still very close.
It forces you into numerous conditions. Drafting heavy AD. Not many viable AD mid picks in the meta. You have to draft for comps that will likely have to function on it's own without heavy jungle support. Karthus ganks aren't the greatest and he prefers full clear. Easy to predict pathing. Also, TES is not the best example. They look awful on red side. 0-3 btw.
Winning is all that matters LS. If they are winning with "bad drafts" then they will keep doing those drafts, because all they care about is winning.
Ls is wrong though. I agree on the fact that eastern teams tend to struggle against untested grounds, but it is not as easy as it sounds to create new strategies, let alone perfect them. If you really want to bring something NEW to the table, you have to consider LoL as a game has already evolved countless times in Micro and Macro, so how long will it take for PROS to sort it out? Not much.
Make a new strategy, how are you going to test it without it becoming meta for other people as well? Limited scrims to limited teams? Playing it in solo q?How will i test this and know it's good when i can't play it against good teams because i have to keep it "New".
the game is not solved, you have to recognize that league is VERY behind just compared to a lot of other games like dota 2, csgo, etc.. There are countless of strategies that are unexplored in league, and you dont have to "perfect" them in order to gain an advantage. Testing strategies may take some time but it is simple, and pro players already have the endurance to play this game for hours on end, there is practically no reason why they shouldn't be able to practice what they need in a reasonable amount of time. And also, learning the game from a more generalist, fundamental perspective (as opposed specialist, linear practice like eastern teams) shortens the time it takes to sort out all the chaos that happens when using new strategies.
League could be WAY WAY WAY more interesting. Western teams have the opportunity to make history, yet they are complacent cowards.
@@NinetyK7 Based on what? You're just making up stuff to fit your narrative esp considering LoL eastern pros hire the top best (Seoul university top of the class) whereas CSGO are HS drop out coaches XD.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg yeah top of the class coaches that still somehow encourages their players to build like clowns and waste their economy in the game. They're not the best, there will be better.
I really think LS looks at the game in laning matches as opposed to overall team comp and map control. Everytime I hear him disagree with someone he bases it on very minute details. When yes in local environments this might be better but as a whole for the map and game they want to play its counter productive.
From a TCG point of view, there's a difference between netdecking and creating a deck with your own thoughts.
rekkles's face when ls speaks lol
Reminds me of the MAD vs. RNG game in play ins where MAD tried to run a Nautilus Kaisa comp into them and got shit on. You cant beat China and Korea at their own game! Oh but guys the east has high winrates on these champs lets copy them maybe we will be good lol! Lets draft and play for fights around early objectives that we cant win because they have 1000+ more hours of practice than us on those exact scenarios!
Would be interesting to see a video about the reddit post (TCL will lose the Worlds/MSI slot and become part of ERL) on your second tab
2:35 true. The only example that this is not true is CS . But FPS games are not big to begin with in Asia.
FPS games are huge in Asia. It's just that they rarely play the same FPS games as we do in EU and NA. China is only 2,5% of the active CSGO player base and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise that they don't excel in it. As an example, the game crossfire is very popular especially in China averaging around 8 times more active players than CSGO. Another example is PUBG Mobile which is very popular in exclusively Asian countries. If they had a comparable player size in CSGO to that of Europe or NA then they would most likely perform similarly well.
I think one of the biggest advantages the East has in LoL is the lack of innovation. In previous years, the West relied on Riot to shake up the game so they didn’t have to innovate. Remember lane swaps? All memorization. Riot gets rid of it so West can stand a chance. Remember everyone whining that Korea was too good at vision? Riot removes it. At this point Riot would have to remove champions to help the West. And you could argue they already do that with some balancing changes where a champ is nerfed into being unviable.
I think this also contributes to the lack of innovation. If you break the game, Riot will nerf it/get rid of it. However, there is nothing stopping teams from making these innovations to get wins when it matters. No patches happen during Worlds. Somehow no one has figured that out yet.
Basicaly beat them with ur brain not ur hands because they play like robots and when they face something unprogrammed they dont know what to do
2019 pyke top g2 vs skt is the right example of this
This couldn't have been said better
Can we crowd fund an lcs or lec team led by LS?
It really confuses me when the West doesn’t try anything new, but instead they try to fight on Asia’s terms. Skillchecking Asia will get you nowhere because their schedule has more games than the West. So in terms of traditional picks, the West is already behind. So why not try to close the gap through non traditional picks?
EU did do that. They just weren't successful. Did you see any eastern teams gravitating towards seraphine?
Yes pretty much what G2 did in season 8-10. People keep forgetting season 8 G2, was also innovative because hjarnana brought out heimer bot that had to be eventually banned. Then in s9 the flex pick was pyke top that they used to beat SKT.
Ofc they’re not gonna talk about the work hours difference
The thing is eastern teams and more likely lck is more creative with their drafts than the supposed drafts of lec in worlds rn.
LS touches on the main complaint I have of NA teams. NA teams seem obsessed with the predetermined meta and they aren't willing to create their own meta. They always play whatever other regions deem strong and are turbo focused on those picks. It gets to the point where they will stop playing their play style, the whole reason they won LCS or got top 3, and turbo focus on "meta" picks and then wonder why they got smashed.
Basically, the only way to beat eastern teams is to cheese them.
But this works only in BO1, not in BO5 leading up to a final, therefore it is pointless.
That's why EU had a good first week at both Worlds and MSI, but once found out, they totally blew up in 2nd week.
Cheesing is when you do something bad to get results.
What LS is trying to say is the opposite, do something good that is misunderstood/not understood enough, so that EU and NA can win, but ofc after maybe like 3-5 years they will pick up these things like freezing in the midgame and drafting better, and master them. Overall will improve the west, then the east in the future, pushing league to its limits.
League has not progressed in terms of level of play and strategical thought since 2017.
@@S001Strategise This sounds like copium to me.
Still waiting for a Vlad at worlds
He might be strong but Aatrox ang Maokai just kicks you out of the lane
Literally one time the euw team stepped out of the comfort zone in to the pick ban was when caps pulled out the vayne, against perkz galio, like four years ago... somehow, they are convinced that Asian analytics is imaculate... and for that reason the drafts and picks played in the east are infallible, literally west hasn't had a innovative team since M5, which would have made a mess, but somehow got boned over ORGANIZED CRIME accusations... in the distant past...
culture, ping, and work ethic
Maybe this is why bauss got to challenger with such ease. He’s playing his game, not theirs.
he brought something to the kr server that was new to them. theyve probably never seen an inting sion before, much less sion in general. was pretty funny watching them learn about the baus special and trying to block it, only to get 1 shot by full ad sion
He got stomped at higher ranks and had to completely switch his build and play style.
@@toniyakovlev4403 Only after he got the strategy nerfed because KR players were QQing about it to Riot.
@@cat-vv9xb Nah he was hard gapped. He was actually sprinting it down and fell hard. The fact you think they made the nerfs because of Korean input is hilarious. Smartest bauss fan :)
@@cat-vv9xb Meaning what?
One thing, don't shy away from brining in Korean coaches!. That's the first thing LPL did before taking in Players. the LCK coaches really know how to make players. LPL would be not developed as it is now if it wasn't for LCK coaches. You can hire as many players, mercs but without the guidance the league will only end up like LCS or the infamous Chinese soccer.
I wish LS coached G2 super team back then... Man
True, I mean playing their game and wondering why you lost is so fucking silly
lot of what you said is right imo, but you didn't listen to what rekless said until the end...he said a lot of things which you would certainly agree on lot of them
In Rekkles mind: Eastern players can play all Champions.
Meanwhile in reality: RNG bans Caitlyn on blue side, because they can't first pick it.
Tbh it's not that. It's more that the way RNG functions as a team relies on playing a specific core of champions. Why do you think T1/GenG banned Lissandra instead of OP picks? Lissandra is the perfect champion on how RNG plays the game.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg So you are basically saying "It's not that they can't play Caitlyn, they can't (or don't want to) play the champions you have to play around Caitlyn."
Which still leads to the same conclusion: They have to ban a Top Tier Pick on blue side, because they can't play everything, while Rekkles claims, they can do exactly that.
And since they already banned Cait on blue during the group stage (even against CFO), T1 knew this was coming.
So why was T1 banning Lissandra over the supposed op Cait? Because RNG gifted them a free ban.
@@PassivesAbseits Are you saying faker cannot play w or against lissandra? Dude has some of the most insane clutch plays on her and yet t1 bans them. LS thinks that eastern drafts are garbage but he only thinks from the theoretical pov when in practice its different. Didnt he have a chance to coach a team and didnt show anything for it? The point is cait is strong in t1s style of play (waveclear plus lane bully in bot, making it hard to gank w correct play) plus guma is good at it such that they would automatically win 90% of the time. Like xiaohu liss, which increases wr due to his roaming style when it comes to liss. T1 could play liss but it means sacrificing its stylistic advantage and thats why they banned it.
@@limkx6613 Were did I say anything about Faker not being able to play Lissandra? All I said is: They could ban it, because they didn't have to ban the Caitlyn, which has the highest ban rate during the tournament (Shoutout to DWK for ruining my pick ems by leaving Yuumi open... since she was my bet on highest ban). Being forced to ban that champ on blue side is a clear weakness. It gives your opponent a free ban.
So Rekkles' "They can play every champ and every comp" is just proven wrong.
We could see that with the Canyon red kayn, and he was turbo nerfed, imagine how this champ was utterly bonkers for 3 years at least. Never picked in pro-play except a Caps blue trash, which is the worst form.
Veigar is another example of a zone control mage that has very high utility and just auto-scale. If the enemy doesn't have blink they can't play and can't move, never picked except by Nemesis and he was fisting people on FNC.
Best champions are obviously game dependant and less reliant on solo queue stats, but if you refuse to improve the game by learning champions it feels terrible, like Rogue picking renekton to do what ? What is a renekton brining to the game there ?
Another example that chovy brought in scrims recently was the tank Galio, i always played tank galio toplane when the matchup was right and it always felt good cause of high base dmg and litterally trash ap scaling unless 600 ap, why not bring this midlane to have an extra tankline for the drakes early on, and pick a mage carry in the jungle ? We don't know, we saddly don't know...
Another example would be the Akshan midlane, if you want early kalista power to control bot why not pair that with an akshan midlane that litterally destroys mages level 2 to 6 ?
Another example would be the utility supports midlane like Ivern, like Karma if you get a graves jungle why not pick a mage toplane like kennen or gwen and fit an unabler like ivern midlane or Karma to chain buff the grave so he's using his shotgun to the face of everybody killing everything ? We don't know...
Ls should be a coach. With his intelligence a team would never fire him. He would add so much to the region he coaches and change the game
He already tried twice
@@jae-86 He was being sarcastic.
Look at the meta in bronze. People are so hardstuck they're willing to try anything to get out of bronze, which lead to new botlane combos, new toplane matchups, new midlaners. 2-3 months later pros play it in LCS/LEC and they win by surprising their opponents and they get called innovative rising star.
its like playing chess against a grandmaster, sure you might win, but you'd be better off playing checkers
3 days later: Kayne pick, heimer supp
The thing is, LS see only stats, etc..... but sometimes players knows better at the spot whats better for them or what they wanna play.... like calling Pro players stupid just because they picked Heimer.. probably even practiced it...... and enemy had no idea about it.... just because it doesnt suits LS's maths, stats etc.. is kinda pathetic
I think Eu League needs a serral like player to make a change
ITS CALLED DRAFT SCALING IN ALL ROLES, PLAY SAFE AF, AND STACK DRAKES. THEY DONT PICK SCALING LIKE THEY SHOULD. When you are worse than your opp - you must outscale. SIMPLE!!!!
IF DONE PROPERLY, AT 20 MINS THE OPP WILL HAVE PUSHED DOWN MORE TOWERS THAN YOU... BUT... YOU WITH PROPER POSITIONING AND OBJECTIVE SETUP SHOULD WIN TEAMFIGHTS AND CAN BEGIN TO TAKE BACK CONTROL.
The problem with picking full scaling, is that you are expecting that your team is going to be able to do it "PROPERLY", every time. Which in most cases will result in the opponent's steam rolling you in the early game, to a point where there is no comeback. Sitting back and hoping for "We scale" to win the game, won't work. Drafting niche, comfort picks in order to force mistakes seems like the only viable way to me. If you're the clear, weaker team then sitting back is probably the worst thing you can do.
There is a reason why 2019 G2 were so successful, they were virtually impossible to predict. They could flex champions like Pyke, Neeko, Yasuo, Ryze and Irelia in a way that other teams couldn't. They also had a lot of off meta pocket picks which teams didn't know how to effectively handle, such as Zoe, Elise, Sejuani and Morgana.
@@seb7271 They weren't as successful because it only worked with KR teams because they were too dumb to play their own game. It's why LPL teams crushed G2 because they understood exactly what their comp could do while teams like DWG/SKT would hand shake their leads for no reason. It's why 2020 ended G2 legacy since DWG taught KR teams to stop hand shaking their leads and knock them out. T1 did exactly that to g2 at MSI. Momma said knock you out.
Can confirm Illaoi fists Sylas lmaooo
American and european teams are more worried about winning money, having success is a secondary thing
well one of the solutions is on not ginving up coachign and show and proove; that u can make it better ls... and maybe not in fucking inter na but in an actual mayor region like eu :D
Yall are sitting on nunu sup. Perma engage is hard to play around for some bot lanes. Complete shuts them outta the game playing catchup.
Its funny to me to watch someone with no pro playing experience - an whos only pro coaching experience was ended after like 3 weeks - sit so high on their horse like they know so much better than an entire scene that live and breath the pro game.
If he could just prove any of it that would be a starting point but he cant
I’m 99.9% sure that the LoL pro scene is the way that it is because the players are so young and are men. I’m 24 now and thinking back to when I was 18-19-20 my thought processes began and ended with whatever stroked my ego the most. Western LoL players probably know, subliminally, that they’re wrong, but their ego won’t let them play a champion they consider to be… easier or requiring less skill. Great example with Heimer, but an even better one is with enchanters - they’ve been insane for multiple years now and yet Western pros refuse to play them. My theory is because there is a pervasive opinion in the community that those champions are easy, and the players would rather stroke their ego playing Thresh or Akali. They outwardly admit that eastern players are better, but if they believed that then they wouldn’t continue playing the game as if it were conventional warfare. They’d do what every outmatched, outgunned army has ever done in history - they’d fight an asymmetrical war. But if they accepted that they had to do that then they’d need to bruise their own ego and really start believing that they aren’t as skilled as eastern pros.
It all just kinda affirms my opinion that Western pros are really interested in winning anything. Typically, when you really want something, you do whatever you can to accomplish the goal. They aren’t doing everything they can to win. They won’t let go of their egos to make these matches competitive. And, thus, the pro-LoL scene collapses in the West because the competitive teams don’t want to actually compete. It’s really sad.
I really like that LS proves to us that there is so much more potential in league pro play.
I think that's why G2 for a while was the weakness of eastern teams because of their non conventional drafts and playstyle. It would pull them out of their comfortzone and they wouldn't know how to handle it...
i dont understand why t1 doesnt put ls as coach. he knows so much about the game. whenever i see him stream and im agreeing with him most of the time. but they have bengi as coach. but still got to give bengi some credit. t1 have been playing better.
Why do you think he got canned from c9? Players want to decide what champs they wanna play, and if they pick their standard picks , Ls probably shouts out about how stupid they are. He dosent seem like a person who can meet someone at the middle. He literally spends 10% of these vids screaming how stupid pro players are...
Copium
idk if you don't know but ls was supposed to be a coach for t1 one or two years ago, even faker approved, but korean "fans" sent death threaths to his grandmother so he stepped down
i dont know if anyone but ls understand these concepts and is in a position to captain teams
first of all LS is not in position to captain teams. second of all everyone understands this, at least the european players at worlds are not that stupid, but you know what they have a better understanding about? trying to innovate for a weak and go 3-80 in scrims. than they try standard stuffand the score gets closer. conclusion: play standard.
I said it once and I'll say it again. League of legends inherently IS AN RTS. You manage recourses and whatnot. If you look at league exactly like that you can actually come to some really funny conclusions.
The fact that c9 would drop this man is baffling. If LS led c9 into worlds, c9 would be 1st seed out
No disrespect to max waldo but he's not as good as LS
It’s all about what if when it comes to this guy huh lol no, he won’t be a good coach and he was never a good coach. He thinks he is so much smarter than pro players but he doesn’t even have a presentable pro play career for his entire life. Not a single trophy not a single achievement no nothing. So show up or shut up.
@@peterpines4992 very true but I feel like c9 should have ride it out with LS for at least a split before making any change. Obviously, I don't know all the stuff happening in the back but my opinion is that c9 players are buying in his style in the beginning. But i do agree this is all talk so far and no results yet.
@@peterpines4992 just good'ol NA Hopium man, just let me have my dreams hahahaha
@@peterpines4992 he is but knowing shit and translating it into the game and into a team is hard and being a good coach is more than having decent game plans. And LS isn't even that great at shotcalling himself once inside the game, I know for many reasons like his eyes and his lack of raw mechanic it limits him in how far he can climb but then again there are so many jungle chars fitting in pretty much any comp with little to no need of mechanics so if he was actually that amazingly smart and knew the game so well he surely would have climbed challenger a couple of times.
its all about how much time you want to invest....and be sure, there is always one eastern kid who invests more than you
western teams dont really want to win, they always advertise that they wanna win but they dont....thats the biggest lie in lol esports xD
Its about money not winning (the players want to win tho)
true
Agree to a certain point. Like, I´m pretty sure everyone wants to win, but not everyone has the will to put the same effort that eastern teams do. And even if you´ve a team willing to put the work, if the rest of the league is shit then it won´t be enough, since the competition level is so low compared to eastern leagues, that they can´t have a decent practice environment
Easy answer : play better.
I'd rather believe a pro player who played for long and attended worlds grand finals 2018 than a streamer and bunch of nobodies watching replays and commenting opinions publicly. You don't experience the pressure live your just sitting there watching.
damn. how old is rekkless
26
Too old to look like a school desk
@@janosikplayer2211 xdd
"This is so cope" LS he wants EU to be better than KR and CN this is the opposite of copr
The west plays too honest, too close to what is perceived as "safe" and "meta"
THEY DONT PICK SCALING LIKE THEY SHOULD. When you are worse than your opp - you must outscale. SIMPLE!!!!
@@Habeev07 ah yes pick scaling and teamfight against asian teams the 2 iqcel moment
@@marcellocalza8041 Lmao exactly. Hey guys lets just pick scaling and give up every objective. I'm sure we can contest drake soul in the 25min mark while they're up 8k gold! SCALING!!
Becoming a very good at Z tier champs, spending many months to get better at a few champs while the eastern team dominate for 3 more seasons. Where have I heard this before....?
As long as East still winning because of mechs diff they will still baiting all the world to follow their meta game
How does no one listen to him I still don't get it
eastern players don't do anything outside of League that's why they're so good , but western players on the other hand try to have a life while playing that's where it goes wrong
chess too with risky non usual openings you trained more than your much better opponent
Actually EU brought lucian name to the meta. i think NA bought heimer. Asia has 10x the playerbase. no need to psycho analyze this.
China has literally 10x player base than Korea
but noone coppy weastern team comp
Just turn it into solo q
exactly😂
I am genuinely starting to think solo q and for fun players >>> western pros
I feel like this rant is pulled from the pages of a speech he laid down at the feet of Cloud9 while he was head coach. But instead Jack clings to his cringy “systems” schtick and his top seeded side gets dogwalked out of groups by end of week 1.
NA will never learn. Maybe EU is more open to his theory.
That's one of the reasons why I don't get excited for league competitive anymore. Why would I watch Azir, Corki and Oriana do their things for the 8000 time there's no variety, Riot balancing is against any type of strategy that is slightly different than what is played right now.