LS And ForestWithin Explain The Many Reasons Why The East vs West Gap Is MASSIVE
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- Опубліковано 27 жов 2022
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#LS #Worlds #ForestWithin #Clips #Highlights - Розваги
#1 lower ping and an environment that nurtures mechanics
#2 passion for the game
#3 willingness to put 10-12 hours a day into nothing but league of legends
#4 a culture you grow up in that tells you to be better than your neighbor that is enveloped into the very core of solo q
#5 higher risk of losing job to another rookie which pushes players to actually perform
There you go.
If only there was something called champions queue
Cut salaries. It's really that simple. Once they secure the bag, these people don't care, and there's no reason they should. Dumbass 18 year old kids are getting paid 6 figures + without paying housing, etc.
#6 they allow you to flame shitters in solo q meanwhile in the west midget is a bad naughty word
@@xNocturnaLii Exactly but doesn't solve 2/3/4/5 they (not ALL) have no passion/willingness to play 10+ so they don't play it, and since it's NA or EU cultural BGs are all variant. Teams do not require solo que or champions que enough or at all. Players like Meteos refuse to train their competition (Academy players) for job security.
@@mkzzzzzzzzzz1 Agreed some of these NA players are too busy enjoying the "LA life" rather than doing their actual fucking job
Growing up in NA in the standard sports you automatically respected and listen to your coach because any fighting back or arguing leads to getting benched or kicked off the team. For example you really think If max Waldo wants to draft a tank topside but fudge says no I’m going fiora and locks in it and runs it down they’re going to bench him the next game? No they’re paying the players way too much and the players know the power they hold over the coach. You can’t bench a fudge when he gives you the best chance to win. Just examples
Remember if you ever feel down and bad about yourself, at least you are not Renekton100 spamming the same message repeatedly in LS's chat cuz they are so starved for attention
Dude's a bit sad ngl
You guys know before worlds 2 years ago Bin didn't even know whens the herald spawned xD yet he shitted on every top laner except for nuguri
I will say growing up in Canadian hockey culture. You would just respect and follow the coach blindly.
They got very passionately angry like the LPL coach and everyone would use it to go out and try harder.
You are not even just playing hockey. You are doing gym workouts, hot yoga, conditioning, film review, skating on a treadmill. Anything to outwork the competition and get better.
I think it’s just an NA video game culture diff. Not NA culture diff. Video games in NA attract all the lazier people on average.
Obvs east and west have very different culture in general. Interesting that NA video game culture brings out the weakest and laziest part of NA culture.
If the NA pros treated LoL like Canadians treat pro in hockey, or USA treats going pro in basketball or football. I feel that work ethic gap would not really exist.
This is true cause in sports, Americans are very hard working and grind non stop
Tbh this take is right except the blind loyalty to the coaches. NBA is an example of where you have more player empowerment such as the Warriors. Hell, one of the best examples of blind loyalty to a coach was Popovich. Guy will likely go down as the best coach in the NBA and he even had issues adapting to his players and trying to model them to his out dated style of play.
this has been my take for awhile its kind of annoying to see people bash NA culture/work ethic. Then you look at traditional sports like basketball,hockey,baseball, and NA dominates the rest of the world.
Nice analysis, big agree
Although the common example for bad work ethic is Fudge or the 100T starting roster (They are not even American), the East simply has better servers, more players and more tolerant of scaling gameplay.
I really hope people will really try taking LS' approach to making the players learn how to think critically and ask questions/push back. Players are passionate and want to win if they become a pro even if they get demotivated from losses and don't know how to overcome them. I've been seeing the notion from people in comments or LS/forest (not explicitly I would love to hear them talk specifically about this) saying that these players having a high salary makes them lazy or that cutting their pay will make them better. I completely agree with LS and forest in that players don't know how to think critically or that players and coaches don't know what to look for when analyzing, however I don't think that cutting salaries will make them better (which is different from saying that they don't deserve it based on play level compared to more successful teams or that it's not sustainable long term for return on investment) when the core problem of their lack of analysis for improvement exists.
NA: Practice 5 hours a day.
70 ping soloqueue
Chillin in Koreatown and santa monica
18 games in 9 weeks
idk lool
Where is the video to it?
main channel i think
how'd you think it will change
if they put the coach on stage with the players on
on comms, in a spectate account.
coach doesnt really contribute alot in BO1. except influencing the draft
The mentality gap is a interesting topic, especially if you see that disciplinary actions that are borderline abuse gives results (not that im happy with that, just stating what it seems obvious), why does such ambient gives such an edge to competitors (we can see ppl like that on the west, but it way rarer, ex: Kobe and Michael) and it's possible to change that?
And another thing that fucked NA and EU that doesnt seem to get into the conversation its the protection of the regions of foreigns teams, after the lmq incident, in retrospective it was a mistake i think, it was the best way for NA and EU teams to upgrade their talent, facing minor KR and CH teams that would like to come into the west
Because NA cares too much for their “mental health and well being” no toughness, no killer mentality lol
@@Zoomzoom-ld8qw yep, the lack of that level of passion/obssession for being the best, is just fine to be participating wont make many winners lol
4:43 ?? Starcraft? Hello
I want to go into the topic of coaching staff. Obviously being in both East and West coaching scene, LS has more experience than anyone to compare them so mostly his opinion is correct. One more reason I like to add is that while LEC and LCS mechanics are worse than LCK and LPL, the West coach put in more effort to find out about multiple, out of "meta" picks and tactics to narrow the difference in mechanics between the region. In the East region, the coach will focus more on mechanics, macro and micro management s more than the picks and stategy, not that they would neglect them, but less than the West coach. You can see this in multiple behind the scene clips of LCK and LPL.
I think LS is right about the strategic inclination of Coaching between West and East. I think League of Legends is a very mechanically intensive game and it has been becoming more and more mechanically intensive. This is why the gap between the East and West is increasing. Playing more, lower ping, and an environment that emphasizes high level micro and mechanical play is going to produce very strong players. If you look at Dota 2, for example, a game that isn't as mechanically intensive as League of Legends, whose strategic/macro component is a lot more potent, you find that there was a rivalry between the East and West (with the East still having more mechanically gifted players) and later with the Europe overtaking China as the kings of the game.
it's just a ping gap
anyone watched angry MJ or Kobe imagine doing that in LCS xD
LS the wise
Few internacional events.
Let's be real, west will never match east in mechanics and individual players, but there are two ways the west can win vs east,
first one is lck or lpl teams can't understand the meta well, their drafts will be so bad and lose (ex : 2018 lck teams in worlds with compelety shift in meta that was so bad for Korean playstyle and first week of worlds that east still tries to figure out the meta).
The second one is west gaps east in drafts with off meta pick that east can't know how to deal with it ex: 2019 G2 with pyke in toplane - mega botlane - with good macro, if you look at skt vs g2 games, skt almost always had gold leads in early game but g2 Marco with good draft beated high micro skt players)
This is why I always want LS competes as coach with his drafts that may beat east , but let's put our toplaners on fiora although west players don't even put so much effort individually in practice compared to eastern teams, the west does not want improve i guess.
U see how all the examples u used are from a very long time ago? Now look at this worlds, where its actually the eastern teams pulling out these different picks (other than soraka and nasus). Ashe Heimer, Kindred, Fiora into Aatrox, etc. Yes, i also agree that the west are a bunch of pussies not willing to try new things (like why havent we seen Inspired Fiddle till like the last game), but the very area that u think the west can beat the east at is no longer in the west's favor
This is just a garbage take. Weebs always give the worst take on things.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg tHIs iS a GaRBagE taKE. wEEbS gIvE ThE woRsT TaKE oN ThiNGs. No argument, just an insult. Spoken like a true weeb xD.
@@janpredrag123 You tried that is what counts.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg Too bad your reply had 0 effort put into it. Hard to take one seriously when they instantly go for attacks against random person they don't know for who knows what reason. And without actually debunking any of their points.
You having a shitty day perhaps?
I think a lot of the issue in the US at least, is that there is pretty much no culture around video games. All the media is directed towards supporting competitiveness in physical sports, with significant amounts of media opposed to video games (the reasons as to why are probably better not talked about in a YT comment section).
So there just isn't really a 'competitive' culture around playing games at a high level. Then you add in the toxicity of SoloQ and you just get people that don't want to play. Why would I want to grind a game and get really good when the only place i can 'train' is full of people flaming me? (mute all is OP btw!)
in nutshell
#1 work ethic/hard work.
#2 - second chances and looking slip ups through fingers are way more rare in east than in the west.
#3 Eastern players play more with passion and western players play more for paycheck and fame.
The Eastern weaknesses are not so awful that Western strengths can close the gap.
Think it’s pretty clear that LS got fired from C9 because his way of expressing competitiveness doesn’t fit with NA white collar work culture
Hopefully we get a western org that calls out complacency, does well, and we see it become a trend
JDG or GENG?
Geng
@@brrrrr7057 turns out we are in a alternate universe where we have neither lol
I hate this culture talk about how apparently korea and china are just gigachads that dedicate their whole life to something and that they just simply are the best at everything.
Why isn't this the case for almost everything else then. There are plenty of sports or any other field really where that isn't the case. The most obvious colleration is how much the sport is ingrained in the society. Same thing with soccer and brazil. League of legends is huge in NA in the context of player base comparing other games, but the reality is that doesn't mean shit. Most of the top talent in NA are not going into e-sports. They are either going to traditional sports or the tech industry. League isn't the #1 video game or close to it in NA compared to China/Korea. We also have a bigger console playerbase.
Asian people doesn't respect you because you're older or above their pay grade (They'll act like it ofc). They respect you because as a coach you're in a position that they have high regard for the same as a teacher, doctor, professor, or an instructor in general. You're here because you know better than them and you're going to help them improve unless you do something that show about your incompetent they will have not thing but mad respect for you. They didn't view it like "I paid for my tuition so it's your job to teach me or i paid for my bill so threat me doctor" they view those people as a benefactor or patron that help them.
Why do you think there is a big gap between na and eu?
EU culture is more competitive than NA. They also are generally more open-minded. From what I've seen from interviews, and them talking to streamers like LS and Dom, they accept the fact that they are mechanically inferior than Eastern players for multiple reasons, so they're more open to unique approaches to winning the game. This is proven by how EU coined the lane swap strat 5-6 seasons ago, and the unique champion picks like Soraka, Nasus (albeit kinda failed), etc.
NA players are much more close-minded than EU. They're stagnant in their thinking, and only wants to use strats that they know work without realizing that those strats only work domestically when they're playing vs weaker players, but will never work against better players internationally. This is proven by how everyone and their mother call NA the ARAM region, where everyone at 15+min just starts going mid and 5v5 fight all the time. This strat works vs players that are mechanically worse, but against World-Class players, NA teams just get shit on.
@@kelex1298 on the money, just look at 2019 G2 and how they completely out macroed SOME of the eastern teams with their 1-3-1, sacking one side of the map to get another objective, creative picks like Soraka top, which Riot has now nerfed all these strats over the years which caused G2's downfall in 2020 and 2021
@@RMYLIA im crying, what have i read ahahahahah
@@alexandrucatalin5109 LMAO G2 fans actually believe they were good and not Koreans taking time to adjust to the skirmish meta. They also forget G2 "legacy" team got smashed by LPL.
@@RMYLIA What is your excuse for G2 losing to LPL teams?
2019:
0-2 vs IG
0-3 vs FPX
2020:
1-2 vs SN
In the east, they are passionate enough to improve even if that means being toxic and creating a hellish early-game skirmish-heavy fight. The pros who survive and climb out of that depth are clearly superior to those in the West. Everyone in the west when get flamed will start typing to defend their ego saying "you guys are so toxic" while in fact, those people are the reason why the whole team has to deal with a fed enemy taking over the game. "Just play, bro we scale"yeah but the player skill won't scale at least in this game. You gonna get huge mistakes again can tell from how they play the early game. "It's just a game chill out" no there are other modes available, you choose competitive to have fun you are the one at fault here. Forcing other random strangers online to put up with your shenanigan just so the whole team can ff at 20-minute cause of your poor lanning skill is not something fun
I don't think your soloQ experience is relevant to pro training. Get out of ypur head
@@stefanopaolini1345 oh please, I know for a fact everyone act like that. Rule of conformation my guy. Just watch any League streamers, it's all the same. Just improved mechanic but the fundamentals is still not worth noticing. Watching diamond, master plus player just auto pilot and throw the game like the rest. Pro Training, lmao, you act like they will get trained in any other environment other than solo Q. Even with champion Q recently implemented it will take time before any noticeable results are shown
Why is ForestWithin even there lmfao
I don't think I've ever heard that guy in chat have any W takes, what an L person
Man heck that guy for not studying league of legends religiously! He should stay inside of LS bubble of people that agree with him heck that guy man!!
Some takes from FW... hitting your kids, if it results in you wining, is "ok". Atleast that´s what his msg was. Despicable.
Teachers smacking kids with rulers used to be a thing in America a long time ago. Crazy that kr still smacks kids.
lol smacking kids and verbally abusing them is Asia in general
Not allowed to smack kids no more in KR too
Better times.
Older players in NA are running the LCS .. you can't say shit about them or you'll end up in the academy forever while they still play and gets paid to play 3-5 hours a day and then chill hahaha
I know there are much bigger problems that the coaching, but you are CRAZY if you think the west has better coaches than the east.
Comparing player income is just dumb. They get paid to play in different regions, they have different salaries. It's weird that they are worst and get paid better, but obviously their isn't a correlation between the two things in league
Basically western staff has better understanding of the game and how to analyze than eastern staff. But eastern staff understand how to be a better discipliner, which works more for players who are better.
We see this when western teams tend to be more creative with items and champions, but fall short in converting despite knowing how, it’s a discipline issue.
In the east the players will do disciplined things and understand what their coach wants to do, even if it may not be the right thing or the better thing.
being more discipline is not better for good team, its the exact opposite. Also the only thing that western coaches have better understanding off is draft.
That's not true. Rigby and other coaches have exposed the Western staff are really bad in game knowledge and like to just use result based analysis to make a point. Western drafts are really bad. Content creators just can get dumb people to believe in it. See Trump cult.
Western teams like to fall into traps where they think they have a "great draft" but in reality create very narrow conditions to play the game out. It's why LS thought G2 drafts were great when KR analyst said G2 had horrendous drafts.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg I am pretty sure that your first paragraph while true, is even more applicable to eastern coaches. Also your second paragraph I can agree with if we look at only this years worlds, but historically the west had been drafting for much more clear wincon and a way easier to execuet wincon.
@@zsomborszigeti6797 I am curious who you find in the west are great coaches?
Some would argue that drafting 3 losing lanes is not a win con at all. What drafts did you see that made it seem West were doing a better job? They were really awful. Low damage centric comps. No prio in lanes. Lack of skirmishing power. The west is awful. What game are you watching? Even LS coaching BBQ Oliver challengers had horrendous drafts.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg I said that this is true to this years worlds, but not true historically.
To be fair, T1 has better game-skill than pretty much every current LCS and probably even LEC coach because he was able to hit challenger with every role. Every coach should be able to play at challenger, not platinum ffs. There's understanding macro, and then there's understanding situations that require more than just observation. Honestly, I would at the least question something a hard stuck plat player told me if I had hit and held rank 1 for a time or something. I'm also able to use my brain and form conclusions instead of just copy-paste metawhoring to hit a rank.
It's hard to compare games with as much depth as a large cast moba, rts, etc to a traditional sport that relatively speak is worlds simpler in terms of mechanical decision making. A real-world sport comes down to almost all strategy and being able to take advantage of tools/players that have the skill to support the strategy. In that situation I would have a ton of respect for a proven/wise coach that has a mastery of understanding on what's going on even if they would be out of breath after a half court jog. In league it's going to take someone being at least my level or higher mechanically to gain that respect completely if they're critiquing my mechanics. I'll listen for macro, but when the coach would get their ass handed to them by a gold 2 one trick, it's hard to listen about anything mechanical.
first
Last
NA isn't an esport region. Like people don't jump borders and boats to NA to play video games. They come to become doctors, nurses, engineers, the jobs that make more people happy than esports. Other regions embrace esports - NA is just saying they are but they are not. It's better this way though
LS so obnoxious
Its just racial IQ. Not complicated.
Ls never played any sports, so using that reference goes over his head. Hes just a privileged kid, judging how others go about their business. You can live in korea but not truly understand their culture cause you arent korean lmao. Clown take
Privileged as in his mother wanting to disown him for being gay, him having to fly to Korea and be a homeless person and ending up playing poker to be able to live?
LS is the opposite of privilege Lmao
@@undo8558 Having money to fly out to Korea is actually a luxury a lot of people don't have. When people get kicked out they usually end up homeless.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg he didn't have the money. Someone on his team at the time paid for him
@@husenboriwala5110 Loaded friend sounds kind of sweet that just says hey you can use this money to move to another country. Doesn't sound as bad as others got it.
The gap is a lie. There’s no gap. Western teams aren’t even playing the same game as top western teams.
Western Teams dont respect their coaches
Glad you know the players. Good takes as always
Growing up in NA in the standard sports you automatically respected and listen to your coach because any fighting back or arguing leads to getting benched or kicked off the team. For example you really think If max Waldo wants to draft a tank topside but fudge says no I’m going fiora and locks in it and runs it down they’re going to bench him the next game? No they’re paying the players way too much and the players know the power they hold over the coach. You can’t bench a fudge when he gives you the best chance to win. Just examples
I mean, let’s be honest. If your coach is Max Waldo, you’re not going to be scared of him Lmao. Compare that to Maokai or Kkoma, let’s see Fudge do that under any one of them and see what happens to him