I always got the impression they were trying to sell the idea that the "Emperor" is gone and all that's left is that mass of confused psychic personalities, an idea that occasionally crops up in modern 40k.
Also interesting to note that Jherek Carnelian is one of Moorcock's Eternal Champions, one of the Dancers at the End of Time. It feels like Watson gave a very obvious nod to the influence of Moorcock on GW.
I love these reviews. I own and have read many of the old GW books but not for a long time. It is interesting to hear your take on them. Back in the day, they were pure gold to us gamers.
I just finished Inquisitor and now you posted the book club!! ❤ Will you be doing the Ian Watson 'Space Marine' Book as well? I snatched a copy an will read it next
We’re hoping to get to the Boxtree releases (Space Marine and the rest of Watson’s Inquisitor stories), though we’ve still got a handful of the original GW Books run to get through first!
I remember reading an extract in White Dwarf but never bought the full book (not sure why as I was into sci fi and horror at the time). Appropriately, the next 40k book I'd read (over 16 years later) would be Ravenor.
Your modern sensibilities do not belong in a work of fantasy,, set in a grim, dark, horrible future that is borderline lawless and vile. This book was written for a horrendous future setting and did a decent job of it. The book is not great but judging it with a modern social conscience is the wrong way to go. I read it when it came out, I understood that it was fiction and designed to make me uneasy, it did that, like it was supposed to. Just like a good thriller movie it was designed to push boundaries. Maybe don't read book written before 2000 if this made you feel uncomfortable! If you choose to keep going, buckle up! Literature is full of realism that will make you squirm!
You’re absolutely right when you comment that modern day sensibilities don’t always fit with fiction written for a particular setting, genre or even time it was written. Context is powerful and important. I don’t think Jordan and I are unaware of this in any way, I know it’s come up in previous book club discussions, and after all that’s why we’re here, to discuss the stories, and we felt we wanted to discuss these points, regardless of who may agree or disagree with them. That’s kind of the point. To politely challenge on one aspect of your argument around modern sensibility. These books were, their modern incarnations still are, marketed along with Games Workshops range of tabletop games. Routinely these were labelled at 14+, it is within that context that some of the themes of this story surprised me, and that is where I challenge their inclusion, not because of any ‘modern’ or personal sensibility. If this was a stand alone fiction setting aimed entirely at adults I probably wouldn’t have thought about it in the same way. You could argue that both the Warhammer and 40K universes at this time were heavily laden with satirical references, and this is nothing more than an extension of that. The inclusion of many political and popular culture references is undeniable, but inferred sexual assault is neither of those things, and I’d also argue the over sexualisation of a female character was far more common at the time, it remains usual in a book designed to support a tabletop game marketed (at least in part) to kids. We’re about to embark on book 12, so we are definitely going to continue. I’m not sure if you will choose to continue watching, but if you do buckle up! We may have more opinions you don’t agree with 🙂.
I always got the impression they were trying to sell the idea that the "Emperor" is gone and all that's left is that mass of confused psychic personalities, an idea that occasionally crops up in modern 40k.
Also interesting to note that Jherek Carnelian is one of Moorcock's Eternal Champions, one of the Dancers at the End of Time. It feels like Watson gave a very obvious nod to the influence of Moorcock on GW.
Oh great shout!
I love these reviews. I own and have read many of the old GW books but not for a long time. It is interesting to hear your take on them. Back in the day, they were pure gold to us gamers.
This one was fun, and also interesting at times 😂, but always great to sit down and talk about a book with Jordan.
Great stuff, guys, might have to buy this one!
It’s an interesting read, that’s for sure!
I just finished Inquisitor and now you posted the book club!! ❤ Will you be doing the Ian Watson 'Space Marine' Book as well? I snatched a copy an will read it next
We’re hoping to get to the Boxtree releases (Space Marine and the rest of Watson’s Inquisitor stories), though we’ve still got a handful of the original GW Books run to get through first!
@@jordansorcery awesome looking forward to all the discussions! And meanwhile I can catch up on the backlog :)
I really enjoyed this book when it first came out. Books 2 and 3…. yeah well. I’ll be interested what you think
I was wondering this very thing a few days ago. Thanks for the video. 😊
Thanks for bringing us to the past with this novel, very interesting video as always
Perfect stuff for movies adaptation
I've still got my copy from back in the day, I've read it several times. The sequels, not so much.
Good stuff as always Jordan.
First one I bought and remains a classic….
Oh, funny! I bought this one in Jan in a Charity Shop around Nottingham for a couple pounds! Haven't read it yet though!
The first one I read as well!
I remember reading an extract in White Dwarf but never bought the full book (not sure why as I was into sci fi and horror at the time). Appropriately, the next 40k book I'd read (over 16 years later) would be Ravenor.
I bought some random 40K books, and this was the first one I started reading ever. Funny coincidence.
I have a SPOILER question…..
Is Carneleon (the harlequin man) the good/human elements of the Emperor’s psyche that he cast off so he could make more logical decisions?
@@noops9220I like that idea!
Your modern sensibilities do not belong in a work of fantasy,, set in a grim, dark, horrible future that is borderline lawless and vile. This book was written for a horrendous future setting and did a decent job of it. The book is not great but judging it with a modern social conscience is the wrong way to go. I read it when it came out, I understood that it was fiction and designed to make me uneasy, it did that, like it was supposed to. Just like a good thriller movie it was designed to push boundaries. Maybe don't read book written before 2000 if this made you feel uncomfortable! If you choose to keep going, buckle up! Literature is full of realism that will make you squirm!
You’re absolutely right when you comment that modern day sensibilities don’t always fit with fiction written for a particular setting, genre or even time it was written. Context is powerful and important.
I don’t think Jordan and I are unaware of this in any way, I know it’s come up in previous book club discussions, and after all that’s why we’re here, to discuss the stories, and we felt we wanted to discuss these points, regardless of who may agree or disagree with them. That’s kind of the point.
To politely challenge on one aspect of your argument around modern sensibility. These books were, their modern incarnations still are, marketed along with Games Workshops range of tabletop games. Routinely these were labelled at 14+, it is within that context that some of the themes of this story surprised me, and that is where I challenge their inclusion, not because of any ‘modern’ or personal sensibility. If this was a stand alone fiction setting aimed entirely at adults I probably wouldn’t have thought about it in the same way.
You could argue that both the Warhammer and 40K universes at this time were heavily laden with satirical references, and this is nothing more than an extension of that. The inclusion of many political and popular culture references is undeniable, but inferred sexual assault is neither of those things, and I’d also argue the over sexualisation of a female character was far more common at the time, it remains usual in a book designed to support a tabletop game marketed (at least in part) to kids.
We’re about to embark on book 12, so we are definitely going to continue. I’m not sure if you will choose to continue watching, but if you do buckle up! We may have more opinions you don’t agree with 🙂.