I love my tankless water heater, but there is one other con to them that I didn't hear you mention. You will not be taking a hot shower or bath during a power outage like you can with an old school tank heater.
We run tankless hot water with bottled gas. When we run out of gas we have to go outside and switch to a second bottle. This, of course, only ever happens when you're in the shower on a particularly cold morning!
Where I live in AZ we rarely have outages...I have lived in the house 20 years and only lost power 3 times. If there were issues with the power I would have a Gnerac generator and the water heater would be on that system...problem solved.
Can't a whole house back up generator take care of that? I have one bc we tend to constantly lose power in the rural area I live in often. But it's usually for a few minutes then back on. Mind you, I don't recall ever being in the shower when it's happened. But then again, at the moment I'm running an electric tank water heater. Currently considering the switch to propane tankless but the costs are scaring me away some.
My situation is perfect for a tankless. In a vacation home you leave it for unknown amount of time so it’s not heating anything when your gone, when you get there it’s hot instantly you don’t have to wait for a tank to heat up if you turned it off. Usually you have many guests that use the vacation home tankless can handle there high demand. It’s true you can’t run more then 2-3 shower at same time but you can run them back to back as many times as needed.
There a few different variables that go into if it can handle that much water going through. Tankless size and water temp coming in and temp going out. As far as run time and back to back showers, as long as it has water and gas it will keep pumping out the hot water.
I've installed a few of the tankless. They're expensive and they are not ALL THAT. Every regular tank has a VACATION setting, use it. Don't waste your money on a tankless.
Same here Brandon--when friends ask "is tankless right for me?" and I have about 20 questions before I could say "probably yes" or "probably no". The dissatisfaction I normally hear from people are those that replace a 50 gal natural gas tank in a 4bd/3ba where a family home wants to run two showers, the dishwasher, and washing machine at the same time--and they spent a lot to upgrade their gas line and updated venting but end up paying the same or more on natural gas. I had to have an electrician update my panel and am running a tankless in a 1 bathroom condo. The application is critical to using the right type of water heater.
I recently changed to tankless. The main reason was, I have a small house and we wanted to move our water heater outside. This frees up the corner in the laundry room for us to install a toilet and sink. Tankless seems easier to be external, so we went with that. Been happy since.
I have a tankless water heater here in Phoenix AZ. Two things to keep in mind. One you mentioned is you have to have treated water. We have very very very hard water in the summer we are talking TDS in a range of 306-678 and total hardness in the range of 9.9 to 16.1 grains per a gallon. If you don't have treated water you will destroy the heat exchanger in as little as 2-3 years. The other issue is getting it to kick on in the summer with low flow. In the summer our tap water can no joke be 100 degrees plus. I was having issues because of that with the tankless not getting enough flow to only raise the shower temp 30 degrees or so. So it was causing sandwiching of hot and cold water and the water heater would cycle on and off in the summer. So your shower water would go from 120 degrees to 100 degrees then a few mins later it would kick back on. I actually solved this issue by popping the low flow restrictor out of my shower head. But far from ideal. But just something to keep in mind if you live in a desert or hot climate with warm hard tap water in the summer. Also common practice in Phoenix AZ is to keep the water heater in the garage. In the summer our garage can usually be 130 degrees plus. So in that case I would actually prefer one of the heat pump type tanked water heaters as it would be quite efficient taking that heat out of a hot garage. In addition you would get that added benefit of it cooling the garage a bit.
As a plumber here in Phoenix I’d be interested to know what tankless was installed. Any modern, quality tankless has an activation restriction of .2 gpm, and a buffer tank to remove the sandwiching issue.
I'm doing a shed to home conversion. It's just me. I own an electric tankless water heater also a multi split AC-Heating unit. My electric bill stays under $100/ month. It's a 16×40 cabin. Last winter, before the multi splits were installed, I took occasional "warm up" showers. Some really long ones. Never ran out of hot water. It's a great feature adding to an adventurous living experience. And even though I'm just one person, it has helped me save aLOT of money. Thank you for the reminder, it might be time to flush my lines.
This is a great video to refer people too when they ask about tankless water heaters. I pretty much lay this out for people when they ask about them. I've also had people say they were not going to install them until the kids are out of the house... So right on, they will not get out of the shower.
Went tankless couple years ago. Love it. One thing that wasn't mentioned, maybe because it wasn't an option: I set my tankless thermostat at 106 degreesF. Its just hot enough for showers and dishes, but cool enough where in a long shower, you get acclimated. I never use the cold valve when using hot water.
3-4 years ago we switched from a separate boiler and water heater to a combo wall unit. I LOVE IT!!! We have an older house that had one of those older, I think cast iron, boilers and it was a beast. On the positive side, our gas bill is easily 50% of what it was before. Also in the space we saved we could put a full sized chest freezer with room to spare. The only negative I have experienced is because it is one of those high efficiency units, when the Winters get to -30 Celsius, it can struggle to keep the temperature up. In fairness if we had a newer, better insulated house, it may not be an issue. For the handful of days we hit -30's, we just turn on a space heater and all is well. Does not detract from my love for this unit. 98% of the days it is just fine on it's own.
I had a 75 gal water and recently got a tankless along with a whole house water conditioner for hard water. I LOVE ❤️ IT! I had to get one because I am 64 years old and I do not want to wait till the water tank gives me problems as I age. My husband and I installed the tank water heater 15 year ago and the guys who took it out had a “ B” of a time taking the tank out. I will be installing new fixtures so I made sure the water was conditioned plus for tankless. I still had existing outdoor piping for an old water.conditioning system long removed. The tankless was installed quickly because of existing electrical, vent, gas so it was not an issue. Cost me about $10,000 but we’ll worth it. After years of neglecting my home it was time. Next my kitchen, then flooring painting interior and exterior
I'd really love a video going over pros & cons of the newer style high efficiency condensing tank water heaters. Seems to me like they might be a nice compromise (again in your case, you'd have to change the vent). The big freeze and power outage last year brings home another point: as much as I like electronic ignition, there's something to be said for a standing pilot--I at least had hot water during the long power outage. If I'd gone tankless (and I easily could as I have a red meter), then I'd have been hosed there too. Just 1 more case for a backup generator for things that rely on electronic ignition and fans (like my furnace).
heatpump units will use less energy and recover faster than anything else out there - and provide more of a rise in the winter than a tankless could ever dream about. And if you have a heat pump water heater in your damp basement you get free dehumidification too! Still won't get hot water like a gas tank during a power outage - can't have it all :)
@@DocNo27 I have never seen real world usage where they recover faster.. In fact all documentation shows they are 3x slower to recover than a traditional electric water heater and perform worse in the winter..
Bought a Paloma tankless over ten years ago. It's been a reliable water heater, keeps on tickin'. We never run out of hot water, that part is wonderful. The old tank took up a LOT more room. The Paloma is half the size as the one in this video and is out of the way. It's gas, but there's never been a problem in the house involving the other gas appliances. I've never regretted the purchase. I personally recommend any tankless water heater over a tank version.
That’s very helpful my 40 gal tank just died so I’m really debating is it worth investing in one of these suckers or not. Do you get hot water during power outages since you said yours is gas and not electric?!
Great information! Our tank water heater just died and we are now needing to replace it. I was considering a tankless water heater, but after watching this video, it seems it would be too costly and my ROI would not be a good one. Our heater is outside in the garage in an enclosed area however, there is not electric outlet and my gas fitting would also have to be upgraded to fit. Venting may not be a problem, since the current vent goes through the wall to outside, not much of a distance. My water lines also come from the top, so there's more cost involved there as well. So I'll be going with a tank again, and when we are on vacation or not home for long periods, I just turn the gas off so it's not constantly warming up the water...safer also! Thanks again for the insight on the cons of switching over to a tankless water heater...much needed info!
I got rid of my tank style 75 gallon water heater and couldn’t be happier. Mine was in the garage with an electrical outlet right near the unit and a screen vent in the vertical wall 15’ away with a overflow pressure bleed off drain right below for the condensate line… it works flawlessly and I installed a recirculating pump to the existing recirculating line… I’m a contractor and familiar with plumbing practices so it was an afternoon job for me… Also had medium pressure 3/4” gas line which is more than adequate to run the unit.. Love it and wish I’d done the conversation years ago
Redoing piping is easy work. Gas line is an issue for many. Definitely need to check on that. Every tankless I have installed, I have been able to keep the prior roof penetrations from the change out since the water heaters were mounted in the attic on 2 story homes or it was a single story home. Plumbers charge exorbitant rates for installing tankless units for such little work that is involved. It’s true robbery. My suggestion is have the united mounted and do as much as you can prior to calling a plumber. If you are not in a municipality that requires inspections, do it all yourself a save a ton. I have done this and it literally cost me about $100 more than the cost of the tankless bought from the orange big box store. Granted, I buy the largest unit possible. What is not mentioned in this video is that flow rate (aka demand) does make a difference on the shell and tube heat exchanger. This is basic thermodynamics. This is also why inlet water temperature is important to consider when going tankless. You could be in an area where you need 2 tankless units in series to get the desired outlet temperature.
This video is super helpful. It’s a tough decision but we went through your process and came to the same conclusion. After looking at the ROI/savings, we stuck with a tank. It was $6,000 to $8,000 for the unit, upgrades to electrical and gas line and install. The savings in gas based on the indoor location of the tank would only be about $8.00 a month compared to a newer atmospheric vented 50 gallon tank. The savings aren’t as big as some sales people led us to believe because of how many more BTUs of gas are required compared to the tank. Also, the worry of running out of hot water knowing that it is “endless” would lead to longer showers and gas being burnt at 200,000 BTUs. I realized this as much as many BTUs as a pool heater, which I guess makes sense since they’re essentially doing the same thing with a heat exchanger.
I swapped from tank to tankless about 5 years ago. No regrets and the added space in the garage made room for a nice utility sink where the old tank used to live. ROI will be under 10 years, cut my gas bill by over 80%. Biggest thing I like about the tankless is having the remote control and being able to set the water temp for the task at hand. Shower - 100F, dishwasher - 140F, laundry 110F-130F depending on the cycle. I went with a smaller condensing unit, which gives more flow for the same amount of gas and was able to reuse the old 1/2" gas line, replaced the old vent pipe w/ PVC and since it's in the laundry area of the garage, had a drain and power connection to use. The important thing is to look at the entire installed system and then select a heater that will minimize the overall cost. Initially, I was looking at a larger, less expensive non-condensing unit, but that would have needed a larger gas line and more expensive venting. Paying a bit more for a condensing heater saved money on the installation side and I ended up with a more efficient heater. I have the tankless heater plugged into my solar power inverter so it works through power outages.
Is that ROI a simple payback period calculation or does it factor in missed out interest that you could have gained investing it in the market at 8-10%/yr? If it is a simple payback period then that was dumb. It's likely that will NEVER pay off and you'd have been better off in the short term and long term simply investing that money into some low risk index funds or ETFs
@@BLdontM Good point. I did use a simple payback period, $43/yr. savings (in 2017) on gas bill for a $400 added cost. Yes, perhaps that $400 could have been invested, would love to get a guaranteed 8%-10% return. But, also you need to figure the rise in natural gas prices, which have risen substantially in the last 5 years and that will cut the payback time. Also not factored in is the value of the reclaimed floor area in the house. 10 sq. ft. of added floor space for $400 is quite a bargain in my area. And, with an 80% reduction in natural gas consumption, there's some environmental benefits as well. In fact, I get paid back with California Climate Credits on my natural gas bill and that's totally paid my gas bill since fall 2018. I would have received those same credits with a tank heater, but that would have only covered a few months of my higher gas bill per year. So yes, it's a complicated analysis to factor in all aspects. I chose a simple utility savings payback calculation. The savings side of the swap was the least of my motivations.
@@The4Crawler Glad I am not married to you...can only image going with you to buy appliances or cars...etc.....btw I invested in Bitcoin years ago...i don't have to worry about ROI.....
I switched to an electric tankless 7 years ago now. No regrets on my part. As my old tank was in the basement I could not use a gas water heater, so electric was the only real option. I was changing over to a 200 amp service panel at the same time so power was not a big issue. Do note that some of the electric units can require as much as 100 amps to run when they are operating. I opted for a unit that is rated to heat 7 gallons a minuet to a temp. of 135, with a power draw of only 55 amps. More than hot enough to run the entire house.
@m rapacki Some people’s electric rates are really low compared to others, they’re cheaper units, even the high end Stiebel Eltrons are relatively cheap compared to their gas counterparts, fairly warm incoming water temps and they’re stupid simple compared to gas. Plus if you have the electrical capacity why not?
Switched to electric last yr. Runs 3 240v circuits and at max (140f down at 36f) it can draw 170amps (if memory serves). Still figuring everything out but doesn't seem to be costing more. Easy to work on. No more running out if water (being able to adjust temp on the fly is really nice)
@@nickabel8279 Your incoming water is 36° Fahrenheit, you have a tankless water heater and you have enough capacity?! Wow, what model and KW range is it?
Rented property in NC with Tankless water heater Problem was it took forever (easily 3-5 minutes, maybe even 10) for the hot water to get to the spigot. The water in the pipes ahead of what is hot and warms the pipes is too cold in winter (ambient temps) or Summer (A/C on, cooling pipes). Was happy to return home to Md with my Tank water heater. Which was reduced from a 50 gal to a 40 gal when the kids became teenagers, because Nothing gets them out of the hour long shower than running out of hot water.!!
Love the video, not knowing anything about tankless water hears gives me a great perspective of the difference. I’ve always had a tank but never in a garage that you most commonly see. And recently bought a home with tankless and for the most part love it but one thing i dont like is you have to run the sink for a while till it starts heating up. Don’t remember that being an issue with a tank. Thanks again
Whether it is tank or tankless if the water in the pipes is cool you have to wait for the hot water to reach where you are. Also if you are comparing your old house with the tank to the new house with the tankless on having to wait for the water to get hot....that is not fair. In your old house it is possible that the water heater was closer to the spot where you are referencing and the new house your water heater maybe further away. If you want hot water quicker you can have a re-circulation pump put on (if it does not already have one) the water heater. This will re-circulate the water thru the pipes at each location that you put a valve on the faucet. This will give you almost instantaneous hot water at each location....most people put these valves on the faucets farthest from the heater and other locations where they would like hot water immediately. Example: Master bath and kitchen sink (for the dishwasher). Caveat is you will have some hot water in the cold water side for a few seconds or so since the re-circulation pump uses the pipes (cold and hot) to push the hot water thru. The temperature at each location is controlled by the valves put in. The valves close when the water gets warm so the system does not run all the time.
hi roger- I did an install of a navien tankless (also uses 2" pvc venting) in the basement of a house with the same exact issue as yours- 3" b-vent running through to roof. I just used the 3" B-vent as a chase to get to the attic. it passes code & it's super easy to do. although, I admit- this arrangement doesn't work if there's an offset in the vent, mid-story. also- navien is the only brand that is warrantied even if you're on well water. it helps that it's 100% stainless steel. the navien CAN use your existing 1/2" gas line, because it has a vacuum assist feature that ensures it will get the gas it needs, even through a 1/2" gas line up to 25' long.... with a little catch- the trunk line that 1/2" gas line is connected to still has to be sized to handle the total btu's of the new tankless plus the rest of the house.. .or it can produce negative pressures on the trunk line... which of course... isn't a good thing. in short- usually you still have to install a new gas line just for the new tankless. I like that the bradford model has the inlets on the top. very nice. oh- also, navien comes with a 15 year warranty on the heat exchanger.
When my tank water heater started croaking a few years ago, I installed a Rheem ECOH200DVELN-1 and no regrets. In reality, it freed up WAY more space in the already cramped room than it did 'on paper', and endless hot water... It takes a bit for full hot water to get to the kitchen, but, while I had never timed it, it did with our tank water heater too. As far as maintenance, I'll admit, I neglected it a bit and went about two years before I did a service on it, but I did a 'time from dead cold to full hot' test both before and after the service and saw zero difference, so is annual maintenance really needed? I don't know - might be dictated by your water. One other bit - Install a filter on your hot water outlet - that will prevent any scale that breaks off from the heat exchanger from getting to your faucets and clogging them up. I put an iSpring WSP-50 on mine and I've actually seen bits of scale floating around in it while operating. At the same time I installed the new Rheem water heater, I also installed a whole house water filter and the sand and crud it's caught since then is amazing for 'clean' city water...
A filter on the outlet is a great idea, though that one is only rated to 100F. I like filters I can see into, but the only ones I can find rated for post-water heater temps are all stainless.
The maintenance is to clean the scale that builds up over time. It will ruin and plug a tankless heater over time. Just depends on how hard your water is. As Roger stated the size of the pipes for the heat exchange are very small...just like a radiator on your car.... All tank water heaters have a sacrificial rod inside that the water attacks as it sits and reacts to the metals in the tank. Once the sacrificial rod is used up then the water will start to attack where it can...be it the inside of the water heater or faucets, shower doors...etc.. Have you ever seen a while scale anywhere in your house over the years, mostly just before your tank heater fails? Again, how long your heater will last without cleaning depends on how hard your water is. Here in AZ my city water comes it at a TDS level of 500 which is very hard water and will destroy the tankless heater very quickly....Either get a TDS meter or have your water tested for hardness if you want .... You are headed in the right direction with what you installed but you left out the part that actually removes the minerals that cause the scale that won't be caught with a screen or paper filter.....you need to put in a salt water system or a polyphosphate filter to help clean the scale components.....
Just had to replace my tank water heater in October 2021. Considered a tankless, but the incremental costs of refitting the unit far exceeded any ROI. I installed an AO Smith 50 gallon gas tank unit three months ago and it runs great. I have 4 people in my home, so this size is adequate. The unit I replaced was another AO Smith that was 14 years old.
If your the slightest skilled you can do that yourself. Pretty much everything is already at your disposal. Maybe lengthening supply lines amd electrical. It's not hard and you can save your self a ton of money.
@@cobravids Agreed. Its about $2500 to replace a 50 gallon water heater where I live. Its something many people can do themselves if they are reasonably handy. Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy 2024 in advance
This video is super helpful. It’s a tough decision but we went through your process and came to the same conclusion. After looking at the ROI/savings, we stuck with a tank. It was $6,000 to $8,000 for the unit, upgrades to electrical and gas line and install. The savings in gas based on the indoor location of the tank and usage would only be about $8.00 a month compared to a newer atmospheric vented 50 gallon tank. The savings aren’t as big as some sales people led us to believe because of how many more BTUs of gas are required compared to the tank. Also, the worry of running out of hot water knowing that it is “endless” would lead to longer showers and gas being burnt at 200,000 BTUs.
Thanks, Roger, for going through the reasons why you could not install a tankless and the pipes, gas, electric, vent issues involved. I want to switch to tankless (despite the upfront cost) but the plumbers I consulted noted these issues. They didn't explain them as clearly as you did though!
Most plumbers aren't familiar with tankless heaters but they won't tell you this. ELECTRIC tankless heaters are the best units, it's a very simple install where the hardest part is simply adding the additional 30amp breaks. That's it, Had mine up and running in no time. Love it
We’ve had a Rinnai tankless for over ten years. No problems. You do have to wait on the hot water to get to you, but once it’s there, it lasts forever. Just don’t turn it off before all of the cold water is cleared. It’s possible for some hot to remain in a long water line from previous use. Cold from the tankless startup will push it out and if you think you’ve got hot already, you’ll get a cold surprise before the uninterrupted hot reaches you! The plumber called it “sandwich” effect.
For about $150 you could put a recirculating pump on the water heater that will circulate hot water to all the fixtures in the house and then you will only have to wait about 5 secs for hot water. They even have timers or you could use a smart plug and set it from your phone. If you run it on 24/7 it is estimated that it cost 20 dollars a year and you will make that back on water waste. Even more with a timer. Good investment
@@pjmiller5457 Don't forget the valves that need to go in at each faucet you want instant hot water...unless you already have a dedicated return line to the water heater.....the pump will not recirculate the water without the valves at each faucet.
@@pjmiller5457 It will cost a lot more than the cost of the pump. You will have to install a new return line from each faucet to the pump/heater. That could cost a fortune. On top of that, now you are constantly reheating all the water in those UNINSULATED lines - completely negating the thesis of an on-demand system!
The old WH in my new house took a dump last year. I chose to go back with a 50 gallon NG Bradford power vent. Even getting the units at wholesale cost, it just made sense to go back with a tank. I don’t need endless hot water. Less components to break on a tank, and I like having 50 gallons of hot water on hand at all times. Tankless heaters serve a need, but I don’t have that need.
Hvac/plumber here. I would never put one in my house. You'll never get the return on saving energy simply because of the cost of installation and the yearly maintenance. I'll stick to my electric 50gal, yes I could go propane or oil but the cost of both would not be cheaper in the long run
@m rapacki And an 80% furnace isn’t a lower operating cost than a HE 97% either, right? This take is just wrong. I work on the wholesale side of the trades and wholesale pricing on tank units went up 37% this year across all manufacturers. The price for a 50 gallon power vent is now equal to the price of a tankless. So no, short term tankless makes more sense than ever and long term it has always made sense.
@m rapacki You’re right, numbers don’t lie but you failed to give me any so I’ll give you some: - Since installing a tankless my energy bill has dropped by 60% -The EZ series from Noritz has a 25 year warranty. -That’s 4x the length of the standard warranty on tanked heaters. How many tanked water heaters are you going to replace in that time….? - Noritz tankless, $1300 - Base 40 gallon AV, $500 x 4 = $2000 This isn’t even figuring in the additional energy and operational cost savings. Obviously a tank should last beyond its 6 year warranty but so can the tankless. I think you get my point. The technology on tankless has become much more affordable and reliable than it was ten years ago when your take was relevant.
We have been installing Navien tankless units for years and they are amazing systems! I would only suggest switching to tankless if you are running out of hot water. It can be a big price jump to switch.
@@JFlex76 If you never want to run out of hot water or have a big family then tankless is worth it. Especially if you are on propane or have expensive natural gas in your area. Tankless units usually need an annual maintenance and are a lot more complex. They can also have trouble if you have hard water or sediment from well water. Never buy an electric tankless!
I just installed a tankless a couple months ago. They are definitely a change, the biggest complaint I have about them is it can take an extra minute to get the hot water but, once it comes on it never stops. The biggest reason I did it was because the old water heater vent was barely passing code and was in a terrible spot in my bathroom. Had the perfect spot behind my HVAC stack, and had everything opened up for a remodel. Had to run new gas, vent, water and drain lines. Luckily my old neighbor is a journeyman plumber and helped me with all the plumbing. Would I tear apart my finished house to put one in, no. Would I put one in while I have access to everything and can do it easy, in a heartbeat.
Does your boiler have recirculation or a button start? Some of the newer models have a 2 pole input to start the boiler before you turn on the tap for faster hot water delivery.. Also if you have a trunk and branch system on your hot water side that can lead to longer wait times as there is more volume in the piping vs a manifold system.
@@FJB2020 no it doesn't. Its always been a trunk system, house was made in the 50's so I don't have the space or want for a manifold. It's just waiting for the heater to recognize that water is flowing and it needs to fire. They won't fire it certain flow conditions aren't met.
@m rapacki ok, most of the times you have copper lines, with a hot water tank you get thermal flowing, so the heat from the tanks keeps some hot water in the lines, if your home has PEX you will get more of a loss, If you take PEX and put your hand on it with hot water, it won’t burn you, but copper you can’t hang on the pipe for long…
@m rapacki ok, been doing this over 15 years with tankless, those pipes cool down a lot, don’t know where you live, but Florida vs Colorado. We also have what is called the sandwich effect, hard to explain. I agree with what your saying on the wait time, people complain to me about wasted water, but your saving on gas, vs the water heater… if your real close to the tankless you won’t have that delay.
@m rapacki ok I’ll try people say the water is hot then cold then hot.. so your in the kitchen you washing the fruit, most tankless need 5 secs of water to turn on, so you wash the fruit short time systems start then turn off, kinda like Morse code hot cold hot cold, your copper pipes really let heat escape, if you have PEX not as bad, just like home radiant heat those copper pipes emit heat. On a average your sink or shower head is maybe 5 gpm, so you say a minute. Take out the stopwatch and really measure the time before the water gets hot I would say more like 15 sec, or so maybe 30
That explains why I don't see them where I live. Our water is so hard you can practically walk on it due to the iron, sulfur, and calcium. And that's after it went through the water treatment plant.
Our HVAC guy recommended tankless. Said our installation would be a bit unusual, but not difficult. Made no mention of upgrading the gas lines. I am undecided. Will probably do a lifetime cost analysis when the time comes - and it is coming soon.
I had to get my tank water heater replaced yesterday because it was leaking out the bottom panel and flooding the garage (and being on a Sunday, it was extra pricey at $1415.00). I'm interested in tankless because I've heard that you won't have (or at least very limited) leak issues. But my house has no gas line at all.....it's all electric. Do they make electric-only tankless heaters? I have a single 240V conduit running in the alcove where the tank heater is now (and no other 120V outlets in there). Would a single 240V connection be enough to run a tankless system? Also, you mentioned vents.....is that for gas-run tankless only? My alcove has no vents. Thanks, and great video!
Noritz ez models are best for retrofit in regular tank water heater replacement because of there vent pipe setup and gas manifold regulator inside needing much less water column inches therefore they can be installed with a 1/2 gas pipe most often the time all depends of what’s inline connected in that branch so all I worry about is electric and condensation usually gravity if not possible then a condensation pump
My biggest gripe with my tankless gas hot water system is that, if there is not enough flow on the hot water (say you want only a slightly warm shower, or shaving with a trickle of hot water running) the system will turn off and you will get completely cold water out of the hot water line. This of course cannot happen with a tank storage system.
Upgrading soon to tankless. Can't wait. I love long showers, and our new home came with a Bradford white 40 gal.while being a nice water heater, it's not big enough for me, and I want endless for my long showers. I need the heat!
I’ve been repaired and installing tankless here in Marietta Ga for 20 years. I have a traditional 40 gallon tank in my house. The equation for tankless beyond initial costs is; 1. Room, do you have to have the room? 2. Usage; do you use so much hot water that you wear out tank type water heaters? 3. Home; are you gone from home a lot? A yes answer above means that a tankless is needed. And Bradford White doesn’t make their own tankless. It’s someone else’s tankless with their label.
You left out is it a want or a need.....Any question that comes down to...yes I can do without or get by than it is a want....hehehhe Just kidding...good points you made
Hey Tony, how reliable tankless are? what percentage of the Rinnai you install get issues you have to go fix? I am one person who uses minimum hot water...
I've had my natural gas tankless system for twelve years now. I have yet to flush it and will do so soon. My hot water needs are very infrequent. It's just me here and I frequently work out of town. Even when home I often shower at the gym. My tankless system has saved me an innumerable amount of money over those years. Installed it myself btw.
Installed my rheem paloma tankless 8yrs ago and haven't had no problem cut my gas bill around 30%. The only thing that u have to get use too is in the winter ground water temp is lower and it only runs 3 application but in the summer its 5. Great video thanks
What about winter gas bill? my gas bill goes up 5 times during winter, i like tankless, what makes me worried is cost of repair if anything goes wrong...
@@user-rx7th9hr4l u shouldn't have a problem if u buy a name brand like rheem and over size it. Also 1 thing u have to do is flust your tankless atleast once a year its very easy to do and it will last alot longer
I am putting in my own Tankless Heater....I moved my tank heater out of the corner in my garage about 5 feet over so I can put the tankless on the same wall that the tank heater was sitting up against where the water lines come in from the concrete floor. It is a perfect situation because my water lines only need to move to the bottom (as you stated), gas line is in the right spot, exhaust will go out the wall since it is an outside wall and there is electrical there for the water softener system. During all this I will have hot water because the tank system stays online till everything is done and will be there in the same spot temporarily to make sure the tankless works out. Since the gas company will not change the meter without an inspection I submitted a permit request with the city (which technically is required anyway) and they will verify the gas requirements so I can go back to the gas company to get a bigger meter. Gas company will not put in a bigger meter without an inspection. Either the city does it or you pay someone to do the inspection. I could hire someone to do this (don't trust anyone anyway) but I am not sure that they would want to do this in multiple steps because of the gas requirements. My house was built new 20 years ago and the gas meter that was put in barely supports everything. I added a gas grill on the back patio that was stubbed out for gas when the house was built and it barely works because the pressure/volume is too low. I have spec'd out the back wall for the tankless heater with condensate neutralizer, 3" exhaust/intake cover, valves for maintenance, iSpring whole house system with screen filter, polyphosphate softener, chemical remover and 3 stage filtration system. I also will have a drain pan under each system (tankless and whole house) along with a condensate pump to help pump the condensate from the water heater and the screen filter (whole house) flush up thru the pipes to the drain. As an added bonus I am hanging the water heater on a 3/4" plywood just a bit bigger for than the heater and putting a sheet of stainless steel behind the heater as an added bonus for fire and water spray if it were to happen for some reason. Overkill I know...... If you do your home work and research you can do this yourself if you are mechanically inclined. It can be over whelming only if you don't take your time to do it right.
I just got a Rheem 40 gallon gas water heater bought- installed by a local plumber. He went and got the heater, installed it and it works great. Now- he charged me $1,100.00 does this sound right?
You should go look at the Matt Rissenger water heater video on The Build Show talking about the high efficiency electric water heater from AO Smith with a heat pump integrated with the EPA as the sponsor.
Had issue with water going cold after 10 minutes. Plumber said that I needed to run water at full flow. So waste water, save gas. But water conservation is usually the priority. Also low flow shower heads weren't providing enough flow.
Idk what brand you have but the units I install require a .4 gallon per minute flow rate to heat the water which should easily be achieved by a low flow shower head. If it was heating for 10 minutes and then stops then u are getting enough flow or it wouldn't start heating in the first place. It sounds like your heat exchanger might be over heating causing the unit to automatically shut down, caused by a dirty heat exchanger. Have you ever had it serviced and flushed out? I'm curious to know if the problem got solved and what the solution was.
@@remedialone6987 The problem occurred when brand new. I have that recirculation pump that a the press of a button in the house, recirculates the water until it comes back hot. I have a three-story townhouse so it takes three minutes for it to completely re-circulate, then it stops.
I've heard several complaints from people that claim tankless doesn't really save you money but if you dig deeper they are using them incorrectly for money savings . I love our whole house tankless and it definitely saves us money . You should find the temp that is comfortable to take a shower without having to add cold water . If you're adding cold water then you have the temp set too high and you are simply wasting energy to cool it back down . We set ours at 113 degrees and it does well . Second is if you know you have unlimited hot water then you and the rest of the family tend to take longer showers which will diminish any savings .
I'm just one person who tkaes shower in 2 min, i've been thinking about tankless for a while, the natrual gas prices are going up significantly, What's holding me back is cost of repair of tankless, i can replace a tank heater myself , but for tankless i should call plumber and that can be very expensive.. If i could rest assure my tankless is going to work for years with annual maintaine, Tankless would be my option... Did you calculate if tankless is going to really save enegy or not?
I'm a fan of electric/heatpump hybrids. With the correct size tank and a piped in recirculator, I think they're the best bang for buck! With tankless, I'm not a fan of the wasted water and delay to get hot water to fixture, install and maintenance cost. As a maintenance contractor for hundreds of properties, many of the tankless units now hitting the 3 year marks are starting to be problematic, even with yearly service. We've gone back to tanks in most of our multi-unit buildings, because we receive way too many service calls on them.
Tankless units don’t take any longer to get water to your fixture than tank units do, and a plethora of them support recirculating. As far as them being rife with issues, the cheaper you go, the more problems you will have.
t water heaters are pretty tough to beat. I'm alone in a 100 year old house and my $50 gallon gas hot water heater costs me 5-6 therms a month and I get 12+ years out of each one (#3 is being replaced next week after 14 years).What's not to love about cheap and reliable? Kids will use anything you give them, maybe they are best taught about real life limits with something like this. If you really don't need a huge amount f hot water 9I mean really need not just want) I'd think long and hard about springing for a tankless, any money you save on gas will be spent on yearly flushing.
I've got a condensing Rheem tank water heater - we've never had limited hot water and it's 90% efficient. Why did I go condensing tank heater? It gave many of the same benefits as a tankless but at 2/3 the cost.
I want tankless a few years ago. I love it! I already had an en electric water heater, So I only had to add 2 more 220 lines. My only problem is my kitchen sink does not flow enough water to trigger the water heater to turn on. So I time doing my dishes with a load of laundry to have enough flow to heat the water. LOL
My father installed one and taught me. Very easy actually. Maybe because I have hands on welding, carpentry, and auto mechanic but either way still easy because I don’t know plumbing or electrical at all.
I agree that there are too many changes for me install tankless. Our hot water usage is low, and the tank heater keeps up just fine. My home is ten years old, and I am the original owner. I installed a water treatment system when I moved into the house. My plumbing is PEX, and my fixtures still look fine. I have drained the water heater twice in the ten years with no evidence of sediment. I will certainly go back to a tank water heater to avoid installation issues.
I installed a tankless propane powered water heater and its great, went from paying a fortune for ones that run off electricity to now about $3 a month for hot water.
Whereabouts are you located? Here in FL, propane is running about $4/gal. right now. Wonder if there's an app for propane prices...for determining our next travel destination...lol
Honest question. If you have a type-B exhaust already plumbed why can you stick the PVC inside the metal vent and seal around the PCV so the only way out is through the B vent?
I put in a few small tankless electric heaters in RV's around here and they work out fine on a 50 amp system, not so much on a 30 amp though. I stuck with a tank type on mine however mine is quite unique as it's a 40 gallon electric tank mounted on a polymer pallet and plumbed in ahead of the stock 5 gallon RV pig tank. If I move the trailer I can disconnect the tank pretty easily via railroad gladhands, twist lock electric lines and proper rated hoses as long as the pressure is bled off first. The tank, once drained, can be loaded into the bed of a truck, trailer buttoned up and hooked up and off we go. I could easily go tankless but I think differently. Also the water tank I have was given to me, the rest I collected from the job, with permission of course.
I am a plumber in South Florida. Extensive experience with with tank and tankless. Mostly agree with your comparison. However, you didn't mention that tankless do not work well with thermostatic shower/tub faucets unless used in conjunction with a storage tank. And in case of water emergency you have enough to last a few days with a tank - found it to be a lifeline in hurricane Andrew aftermath. After you pipe everything in both heaters take up nearly the same space. We also use electric tankless - smaller ones are terrible.
I installed a tankless heater 7 years ago. Never an issue with the thermostatic valves whatsoever. My water pressure is great, and so it is the gas pressure. These units require adecuate preassures or wont work correctly. I love unlimited hot water and savings. Some negatives or things to consider: it takes longer for water to reach point of use (waste of water) , require annual maintenance (if you pay a plumber it will break even with your gas savings) and lastly you do not have hot water in a black out. Lastly many plumbers do not work on these units in the US.
@@TheGonso35 it does not happen in all, but in some cases the thermostatic faucets will hunt for constant hot supply. As the hot water reaches such faucet, the hot gets throttled down to maintain temperature until the flow switch in the tankless turns off the burner and then thermostatic valve will hunt for hot again causing fluctuations in cycles. I usually add a small storage tank to buffer this condition or switch to a tank or replace the faucet(s) to pressure balanced system.
@@TheGonso35 Put a recirc pump on for the hot water delay, Annual maintenance can be taught to anyone unless the installer did not put in access ports...than that is an issue, To solve the electricity issue if you live in a place pron to power outages or weather outages than get a generator (preferably a style like a Generac) so you have power for how water and a couple other appliances...i would assume that natural gas is available during these outages.....but i could be wrong...You can always find someone to work on it....as they become more popular...
@@slickerthanslick1234 I’ve also never heard of thermostatic issues with a tankless. The only way your description makes sense is if they’re trying to take a 75 degree shower, or if they’re some really cheap thermostatic valves. Quality thermostatic would open the gate for cold, not slam it shut on hot.
@Viktor Ilinets Hey Viktor, how reliable tankless are? what percentage of the Rinnai you install get issues you have to go fix? I am one person who uses minimum hot water... Some people love tankless, some don't, only thing that matters to me is having a heater that works many years with less hassle using less natrual gas to lower my bills(my gas bill has doubled comparing to 2 years ago, during winter my gas bill goes up 5 times), what hold me back is the cost of plumber who has come to fix if i need repair on tankless, with tank, it's much easier and cheaper...
Great information for those seeking to switch to a tankless. Personally would never do it. I run a electric heat pump model, beat the gas heaters hands down.
@@syreplays5079 water heater market is over 9 million tank type world wide, per year, I don’t believe they’ll ever be phased out. Take a look at the electric heat pump water heater, they definitely don’t have the recovery rate of a gas type but use far less energy than a tankless or tank type.
@@michiganracer1181 and tankless is over 2.8 billion worldwide. Heat pump heaters aren’t good. They have horrible recovery rates, and when compare to a gas tankless (most common), the yearly operating cost remains similar.
My mom got a tankless water heater at her house. She had all of us, her family,, at her house. It was about six people all fighting over the showers and the dishwasher. We had plenty of hot water and the hot water would get to us quickly. A definite Improvement.
Quick question. First let me say great video. I'm thinking about going tankless also. My regular water heater is in my garage inside a little cove next to an outside wall. I'm going to make my tankless an outside unit. Mine is a gas unit, and it is right next to my gas line. So now I will be able to put a sink in my garage in the alcove the regular water heater was. So my question is, why don't you put your tankless outside? Then you can bypass the vent issue you would have.
You can but depending how cold it gets in your area it could have an affect on how hot the water will get for your needs....why not put it on the inside and just run the vent straight out the wall to the outside....they make a 2" or 3" system for condensing heaters that have a plate the mounts on the outside of the wall and you run the intake and exhaust pipe into the plate that is protected from weather...... Look up Horizontal Vent Termination Kit for High Efficiency Tankless Gas Water Heaters....
Replaced my two 40 gal water heaters and water floor radiant heat furnace with two gas tankless water heaters. One tankless is just for hot water and the second unit does both hot water and radiant floor heating. The wall mounted tankless system freed up a lot room in the small utility closet and garage area. I was able to add a whole house water softener in the same closet with the tankless water heater that only fit a 40 gal hot water heater before. I also have hot/cold connections and I connected a Y connector and garden hose to wash the car in the winter with lukewarm water instead of ice cold water when temps are +55 degrees F.
Switched to Rinnai tankless last month. My main problem was space. I have a < 900sq ft house and the tank water heater took up half our laundry room. Now with the tankless mounted on the wall we were able to remodel our laundry room and get all that space back. Also our old tank water heater was electric and costs ~$600 a year to run, the new tankless should be closer to $200.
I've been thinking about going tankless for a while now, what's holding me back is cost of repairing them in long run, i can change a tank water heater myself, but for Rinnai you have to call the plumber who isntalled it and that costs money... At the same time cost of energy only going up, my gas bills goes up 5 times during winter, comparing 2022 winter with 2020 winter. my natrual gas bill has doubled.
I was always curious when you show this tank water heater. In Poland I saw such thing in my grandfathers house in 90s and heat was not from gas/electric but by pipes from central heat system which was powered by coal. In Poland all houses which need it has tankless heater and it works not only for hot water but also for central heat, had two pipes system one for central heat water and another one for drink water.
This is 2 weeks later but what you described is a boiler/combi. It heats the water to be ran through radiant heat/floorboard/ and acts a water heater. Very common in Europe just like mini splits. They're way ahead in terms of efficiency.
I have had a tankless before and love them and I am building a new house and will be going with a tankless water heater. But I would like to know what brand of tankless water heater would you suggest? I have an idea on who I would like, but looking for possible other brands that I would further research.
Noritz ez 40,is made to replace conventional water heaters,condensing unit so it uses a corrugated plastic vent hose that slides into the existing venting. I've had good results with these
I think it depends on how much hot water you use. Maybe on new construction it might make sense. Retired couples probably don't need it. There is a way to put a timer on an electric tank unit. Most people probably don't have a softener or do the required yearly deliming on a tankless and if they can't do it themselves is it worth having one to save money on gas? Then there is the power outage issue.
Just like you, our water heater is in our garage, when we went tankless, we converted from electric to gas so we had the outlet but they had to run a gas line to where the heater was going. The meter was just on the other side of the exterior wall so it wasn’t too much of a job, but instead of running the exhaust vent through the roof, they ran it through the exterior wall instead. Now that all is said and done, we regret nothing and love our tankless water heater and haven’t looked back.
Couldn't get water pressure to the shower...both kitchen and bathroom sinks were ok..I do not use hot water in my washing machine and do not have a dishwasher...so I had to keep my tank heater..needed to up grade electricity to it also...the idea of thankless is great but very disappointed with hook up and water pressure change...thanks for the video..
I have been installing Rinnai for over 15 years, the main reason is they work, and replacement parts are dirt cheap.. but I don’t know about your garage and if you have a outside wall, just slap it on the outside wall, or move to crawl space. Most of the time, gas meters are on the garage side, but who knows, the code thing is if you in a condition space or not.easy to get condensing and non condensing. Also don’t have to get a 199.000 btu you can get a 165.000 btu. Both ramp up from 125.000 btu or so. I could go on, it’s just having experience. Most of the issues, are gas line sizing…..
not sure about the lower end tankless brand or the older models, but some of the latest new models use 1/2 in gas line rather than the 3/4 in. For electric plug, you do not need new outlet or upgrade electric panel, since these tankless doesn't draw much power. It has a switch board with requires a minimum voltage. If any home has a garage opener, then likely you can just run an extension cable from it. Other than isntaller solar, going tankless was the second best thing I invest for my home.
Two more cons to tankless are instant cold water if the power goes out (happened to me while I was in the shower and covered in soap) and a small con of the start delay of if you are intermittently using hot water to rinse dishes the water will pulse hot cold hot cold hot cold. You have to constantly run the water to keep it running, usually around .75gpm.
fill the sink up with water then rinse by dunking the dishes in the water......btw it is better to rinse cold than using hot water....gets the soap off better....ever have bubbles coming up the drain....spray them down with hot water then try cold...they go away faster with cold....
Hello. Great video. I've been wanting to replace my large tank water heater when it hits 15 years. I wanted to go tankless: 1. Because we went from 4 people to 1 person in the house so a lot of gas loss in heating a large large tank for 1 person use. 2. I understand the new tanks require a significant change to the venting requirements anyway. 3. I want to stop leasing the tank. However, I use rainwater in the house. You mentioned in the video, this would be a problem. Can you please advise ?
@@davidcurtis5398 you don't have to rent it. More and more.people buy them but it's just the way it is. I pay 17 a month and every 13 years or so, I call them say it leaked a but and they install a new one. But.i understand the cheminy requirements have changed now so it would be much more involved to simply swap it out
I just bought a 9.8 gpm tankless water heater simply because I wanted unlimited hot water availability. I have not yet installed it but am looking forward to all the benefits it will bring. And being a single man in a rather small house (can you say "overkill?"), that will be truly unlimited hot water for me. BTW, I paid less than 50¢ on the $ by buying it brand new through an auction that handles store returns and overstock items. BONUS!!!
I appreciate this video. I thought switching to tankless was as easy as pulling out the tank and hooking everything up to the tankless unit. I live in a mobile home, so changing gas lines and running power (to code) isn't as simple as many think. I'm still very interested in making the switch, but now I'll be asking the right questions when I get an estimate. Thanks for the info!
I installed a 200k BTU/hr tankless water heater by myself, just a homeowner (fully inspected). I took my time but the most work went into drywall and painting the new closet that appeared in my house. Much easier than what is told in this video. I even painted the PVC vents on the roof so that they don't get damaged by UV. The comment about electricity is very odd, it doesn't take much electricity at all and any outlet is fine. In many parts of the country like you can get outdoors units that are borderline trivial to install as they require no vents
I think he is talking about electric tankless water heaters that don't have any gas. It's obviously going to require much more power to heat up the water versus a gas tankless water heater that only needs power for the fan.
I have a long, narrow house in Las Vegas. It was originally an all-electric house from about 1955. There was no gas service. When we did a complete repipe, I added natural gas [level 2 pressure] and put TWO tankless water heaters. Gas bill for them is minimal; maybe its $25 a month. That down from $125 for the single electric water heater. They are both mounted outside so the electrical service and exhaust location were no issue at all. One of them is a recirculating unit, Knowing what I know now, I would have installed BOTH as recirculating units. They have operator panels where you can adjust the water temp and turn the recirculation on or off. Unfortunately, I have to draw about a gallon of water before it heats up in the kitchen, where there is no recirculation. The other unit works great. However, there is only one operator panel in the master bedroom. I should have put a panel in each bathroom and connected them in series. I did not understand this when we installed them. One significant downside of tankless, one that never gets mentioned, is that it is TANKLESS. If you live in earthquake or tornado country and lose your water service for a day or so - as has happened to me a couple times - you do not have a reserve supply of water until the service is restored. A water heater will give you three or four days of drinking water, depending on its size. With tankless, you have to buy a pallet of bottled water and keep changing out the bottles, using up the old and replacing it with new. I love your vids, Roger. I'm going to start wearing starched logo work shirts when I go under the house, too. And thanks for the margarita disposer mixer. It's the hit of any party!!!
Literally, a couple of weeks ago, I had been considering on talking to my landlord about upgrading to tankless. The cost, the work to be done, etc... Not worth it. Time to just call him in and have someone clean it out, because I've been in this place for 7 years, and it's never been touched.
So happy, that cut all of this crap off the wall and went back to good old tank. Peace of mind. Was suffering like idiot 10 years, wasting money and time for constant repair and maintenance.
Really good video. You have a great personality on camera and you can tell you know exactly what you're talking about. One tiny thing, and I truly hate to be nit picky, but why during the edit did someone decide to use the camera angle where you're not looking into that camera? It's just a tad bit weird. But hey, a small price to pay for an otherwise great video. My wife and I were debating whether to go tankless, and you've given us our answer. Thank you.
Switched to tankless, not sure about the cost saving on gas as gas prices keep going up. would 100% recommend it, no more somewhat warm early morning first showers, however I needed to install a under sink recirculating pump on the second floor with a FM remote button. This reduces the wait time for hot water at the taps.
I have hot water tanks in my house but in my shop where I seldom use hot water the tankless makes more sense than to keep a tank of water hot for weeks at a time without using it.
I love my tankless water heater, but there is one other con to them that I didn't hear you mention. You will not be taking a hot shower or bath during a power outage like you can with an old school tank heater.
We run tankless hot water with bottled gas. When we run out of gas we have to go outside and switch to a second bottle. This, of course, only ever happens when you're in the shower on a particularly cold morning!
Where I live in AZ we rarely have outages...I have lived in the house 20 years and only lost power 3 times. If there were issues with the power I would have a Gnerac generator and the water heater would be on that system...problem solved.
I’m on well water so once the power goes out it we need to keep use to absolute minimum.
When you live with a well, there wouldn’t be water anyways! Mind you we do have a genset so we are covered
Can't a whole house back up generator take care of that? I have one bc we tend to constantly lose power in the rural area I live in often. But it's usually for a few minutes then back on. Mind you, I don't recall ever being in the shower when it's happened. But then again, at the moment I'm running an electric tank water heater. Currently considering the switch to propane tankless but the costs are scaring me away some.
My situation is perfect for a tankless. In a vacation home you leave it for unknown amount of time so it’s not heating anything when your gone, when you get there it’s hot instantly you don’t have to wait for a tank to heat up if you turned it off. Usually you have many guests that use the vacation home tankless can handle there high demand. It’s true you can’t run more then 2-3 shower at same time but you can run them back to back as many times as needed.
There a few different variables that go into if it can handle that much water going through. Tankless size and water temp coming in and temp going out. As far as run time and back to back showers, as long as it has water and gas it will keep pumping out the hot water.
I've installed a few of the tankless. They're expensive and they are not ALL THAT. Every regular tank has a VACATION setting, use it. Don't waste your money on a tankless.
Same here Brandon--when friends ask "is tankless right for me?" and I have about 20 questions before I could say "probably yes" or "probably no". The dissatisfaction I normally hear from people are those that replace a 50 gal natural gas tank in a 4bd/3ba where a family home wants to run two showers, the dishwasher, and washing machine at the same time--and they spent a lot to upgrade their gas line and updated venting but end up paying the same or more on natural gas.
I had to have an electrician update my panel and am running a tankless in a 1 bathroom condo. The application is critical to using the right type of water heater.
Sadly not all of us can afford a vacation home, we can barely manage 1 home
Vacation home in Florida or Colorado, if in mountains and gets cold and loose power unit will turn into a wall brick, just beware
as a service tech this video is awesome! you had no bias on any of your reasons and it all is real things to consider.
Can you recommend a good brand for tankless hot water heaters?
I recently changed to tankless. The main reason was, I have a small house and we wanted to move our water heater outside. This frees up the corner in the laundry room for us to install a toilet and sink. Tankless seems easier to be external, so we went with that. Been happy since.
I have a tankless water heater here in Phoenix AZ. Two things to keep in mind. One you mentioned is you have to have treated water. We have very very very hard water in the summer we are talking TDS in a range of 306-678 and total hardness in the range of 9.9 to 16.1 grains per a gallon. If you don't have treated water you will destroy the heat exchanger in as little as 2-3 years. The other issue is getting it to kick on in the summer with low flow. In the summer our tap water can no joke be 100 degrees plus. I was having issues because of that with the tankless not getting enough flow to only raise the shower temp 30 degrees or so. So it was causing sandwiching of hot and cold water and the water heater would cycle on and off in the summer. So your shower water would go from 120 degrees to 100 degrees then a few mins later it would kick back on. I actually solved this issue by popping the low flow restrictor out of my shower head. But far from ideal. But just something to keep in mind if you live in a desert or hot climate with warm hard tap water in the summer. Also common practice in Phoenix AZ is to keep the water heater in the garage. In the summer our garage can usually be 130 degrees plus. So in that case I would actually prefer one of the heat pump type tanked water heaters as it would be quite efficient taking that heat out of a hot garage. In addition you would get that added benefit of it cooling the garage a bit.
As a plumber here in Phoenix I’d be interested to know what tankless was installed. Any modern, quality tankless has an activation restriction of .2 gpm, and a buffer tank to remove the sandwiching issue.
Where I live the total hardness is closer to 35 grains. Even with a softener it is still 7 to 10 grains.
I'm doing a shed to home conversion. It's just me. I own an electric tankless water heater also a multi split AC-Heating unit. My electric bill stays under $100/ month. It's a 16×40 cabin. Last winter, before the multi splits were installed, I took occasional "warm up" showers. Some really long ones. Never ran out of hot water. It's a great feature adding to an adventurous living experience. And even though I'm just one person, it has helped me save aLOT of money. Thank you for the reminder, it might be time to flush my lines.
This is a great video to refer people too when they ask about tankless water heaters. I pretty much lay this out for people when they ask about them. I've also had people say they were not going to install them until the kids are out of the house... So right on, they will not get out of the shower.
Went tankless couple years ago. Love it. One thing that wasn't mentioned, maybe because it wasn't an option: I set my tankless thermostat at 106 degreesF. Its just hot enough for showers and dishes, but cool enough where in a long shower, you get acclimated. I never use the cold valve when using hot water.
I do this in my rv as well.
I wanted to do that but my wife vetoed me. 130f here.. need to mix cold to bring it down to human survivable temp!
@@phanttomracer That's just a wast of electricity or gas and money...
@@davidcurtis5398 yes i agree
That's actually a great idea. I hope I don't get vetoed to not do this when I try lol
3-4 years ago we switched from a separate boiler and water heater to a combo wall unit. I LOVE IT!!! We have an older house that had one of those older, I think cast iron, boilers and it was a beast. On the positive side, our gas bill is easily 50% of what it was before. Also in the space we saved we could put a full sized chest freezer with room to spare. The only negative I have experienced is because it is one of those high efficiency units, when the Winters get to -30 Celsius, it can struggle to keep the temperature up. In fairness if we had a newer, better insulated house, it may not be an issue. For the handful of days we hit -30's, we just turn on a space heater and all is well. Does not detract from my love for this unit. 98% of the days it is just fine on it's own.
I had a 75 gal water and recently got a tankless along with a whole house water conditioner for hard water.
I LOVE ❤️ IT!
I had to get one because I am 64 years old and I do not want to wait till the water tank gives me problems as I age.
My husband and I installed the tank water heater 15 year ago and the guys who took it out had a “ B” of a time taking the tank out.
I will be installing new fixtures so I made sure the water was conditioned plus for tankless.
I still had existing outdoor piping for an old water.conditioning system long removed.
The tankless was installed quickly because of existing electrical, vent, gas so it was not an issue. Cost me about $10,000 but we’ll worth it.
After years of neglecting my home it was time.
Next my kitchen, then flooring painting interior and exterior
I'd really love a video going over pros & cons of the newer style high efficiency condensing tank water heaters. Seems to me like they might be a nice compromise (again in your case, you'd have to change the vent). The big freeze and power outage last year brings home another point: as much as I like electronic ignition, there's something to be said for a standing pilot--I at least had hot water during the long power outage. If I'd gone tankless (and I easily could as I have a red meter), then I'd have been hosed there too. Just 1 more case for a backup generator for things that rely on electronic ignition and fans (like my furnace).
They take way too long heat the water and a lot of them use the backup element built in which ends up using a lot of kWhs...
heatpump units will use less energy and recover faster than anything else out there - and provide more of a rise in the winter than a tankless could ever dream about. And if you have a heat pump water heater in your damp basement you get free dehumidification too! Still won't get hot water like a gas tank during a power outage - can't have it all :)
@@DocNo27 I have never seen real world usage where they recover faster.. In fact all documentation shows they are 3x slower to recover than a traditional electric water heater and perform worse in the winter..
@@FJB2020 your mixed up between a high efficient combustion tank Waterheater and heat pump Waterheater.
@@DocNo27 sorry your mistaken heat pump Waterheaters recover isn’t as well as any combustion Waterheater. But a much better for the environment
Bought a Paloma tankless over ten years ago. It's been a reliable water heater, keeps on tickin'. We never run out of hot water, that part is wonderful. The old tank took up a LOT more room. The Paloma is half the size as the one in this video and is out of the way. It's gas, but there's never been a problem in the house involving the other gas appliances. I've never regretted the purchase. I personally recommend any tankless water heater over a tank version.
That’s very helpful my 40 gal tank just died so I’m really debating is it worth investing in one of these suckers or not. Do you get hot water during power outages since you said yours is gas and not electric?!
@@jewdd1989 Tankless heaters have electronics and whatnot to operate so they require an electricity supply.
Great information!
Our tank water heater just died and we are now needing to replace it. I was considering a tankless water heater, but after watching this video, it seems it would be too costly and my ROI would not be a good one. Our heater is outside in the garage in an enclosed area however, there is not electric outlet and my gas fitting would also have to be upgraded to fit. Venting may not be a problem, since the current vent goes through the wall to outside, not much of a distance. My water lines also come from the top, so there's more cost involved there as well. So I'll be going with a tank again, and when we are on vacation or not home for long periods, I just turn the gas off so it's not constantly warming up the water...safer also!
Thanks again for the insight on the cons of switching over to a tankless water heater...much needed info!
I got rid of my tank style 75 gallon water heater and couldn’t be happier. Mine was in the garage with an electrical outlet right near the unit and a screen vent in the vertical wall 15’ away with a overflow pressure bleed off drain right below for the condensate line… it works flawlessly and I installed a recirculating pump to the existing recirculating line… I’m a contractor and familiar with plumbing practices so it was an afternoon job for me… Also had medium pressure 3/4” gas line which is more than adequate to run the unit.. Love it and wish I’d done the conversation years ago
Redoing piping is easy work. Gas line is an issue for many. Definitely need to check on that. Every tankless I have installed, I have been able to keep the prior roof penetrations from the change out since the water heaters were mounted in the attic on 2 story homes or it was a single story home. Plumbers charge exorbitant rates for installing tankless units for such little work that is involved. It’s true robbery. My suggestion is have the united mounted and do as much as you can prior to calling a plumber. If you are not in a municipality that requires inspections, do it all yourself a save a ton. I have done this and it literally cost me about $100 more than the cost of the tankless bought from the orange big box store. Granted, I buy the largest unit possible. What is not mentioned in this video is that flow rate (aka demand) does make a difference on the shell and tube heat exchanger. This is basic thermodynamics. This is also why inlet water temperature is important to consider when going tankless. You could be in an area where you need 2 tankless units in series to get the desired outlet temperature.
This video is super helpful. It’s a tough decision but we went through your process and came to the same conclusion. After looking at the ROI/savings, we stuck with a tank. It was $6,000 to $8,000 for the unit, upgrades to electrical and gas line and install. The savings in gas based on the indoor location of the tank would only be about $8.00 a month compared to a newer atmospheric vented 50 gallon tank. The savings aren’t as big as some sales people led us to believe because of how many more BTUs of gas are required compared to the tank. Also, the worry of running out of hot water knowing that it is “endless” would lead to longer showers and gas being burnt at 200,000 BTUs. I realized this as much as many BTUs as a pool heater, which I guess makes sense since they’re essentially doing the same thing with a heat exchanger.
I swapped from tank to tankless about 5 years ago. No regrets and the added space in the garage made room for a nice utility sink where the old tank used to live. ROI will be under 10 years, cut my gas bill by over 80%. Biggest thing I like about the tankless is having the remote control and being able to set the water temp for the task at hand. Shower - 100F, dishwasher - 140F, laundry 110F-130F depending on the cycle. I went with a smaller condensing unit, which gives more flow for the same amount of gas and was able to reuse the old 1/2" gas line, replaced the old vent pipe w/ PVC and since it's in the laundry area of the garage, had a drain and power connection to use. The important thing is to look at the entire installed system and then select a heater that will minimize the overall cost. Initially, I was looking at a larger, less expensive non-condensing unit, but that would have needed a larger gas line and more expensive venting. Paying a bit more for a condensing heater saved money on the installation side and I ended up with a more efficient heater. I have the tankless heater plugged into my solar power inverter so it works through power outages.
Is that ROI a simple payback period calculation or does it factor in missed out interest that you could have gained investing it in the market at 8-10%/yr? If it is a simple payback period then that was dumb. It's likely that will NEVER pay off and you'd have been better off in the short term and long term simply investing that money into some low risk index funds or ETFs
@@BLdontM Good point.
I did use a simple payback period, $43/yr. savings (in 2017) on gas bill for a $400 added cost. Yes, perhaps that $400 could have been invested, would love to get a guaranteed 8%-10% return. But, also you need to figure the rise in natural gas prices, which have risen substantially in the last 5 years and that will cut the payback time. Also not factored in is the value of the reclaimed floor area in the house. 10 sq. ft. of added floor space for $400 is quite a bargain in my area.
And, with an 80% reduction in natural gas consumption, there's some environmental benefits as well. In fact, I get paid back with California Climate Credits on my natural gas bill and that's totally paid my gas bill since fall 2018. I would have received those same credits with a tank heater, but that would have only covered a few months of my higher gas bill per year.
So yes, it's a complicated analysis to factor in all aspects. I chose a simple utility savings payback calculation. The savings side of the swap was the least of my motivations.
@@The4Crawler All great points. 400 bucks is not that much. If that is all it cost extra I'd consider the space savings alone to be worth that.
@@BLdontM Touche...i liked that. Good one....BTW I am putting one in soon but I am not worried about the ROI because I won't live long enough......
@@The4Crawler Glad I am not married to you...can only image going with you to buy appliances or cars...etc.....btw I invested in Bitcoin years ago...i don't have to worry about ROI.....
I switched to an electric tankless 7 years ago now. No regrets on my part. As my old tank was in the basement I could not use a gas water heater, so electric was the only real option. I was changing over to a 200 amp service panel at the same time so power was not a big issue. Do note that some of the electric units can require as much as 100 amps to run when they are operating. I opted for a unit that is rated to heat 7 gallons a minuet to a temp. of 135, with a power draw of only 55 amps. More than hot enough to run the entire house.
@m rapacki Some people’s electric rates are really low compared to others, they’re cheaper units, even the high end Stiebel Eltrons are relatively cheap compared to their gas counterparts, fairly warm incoming water temps and they’re stupid simple compared to gas. Plus if you have the electrical capacity why not?
@m rapacki Yeah same here in MN. Plus both of our incoming water is just too cold during the winter months for electric to keep up with.
Switched to electric last yr. Runs 3 240v circuits and at max (140f down at 36f) it can draw 170amps (if memory serves).
Still figuring everything out but doesn't seem to be costing more. Easy to work on. No more running out if water (being able to adjust temp on the fly is really nice)
@@nickabel8279 Your incoming water is 36° Fahrenheit, you have a tankless water heater and you have enough capacity?! Wow, what model and KW range is it?
@@tommytmt found it so I must have the domccy ec24 and seems they no longer make it. Can still find the ec18 easy enough
Rented property in NC with Tankless water heater Problem was it took forever (easily 3-5 minutes, maybe even 10) for the hot water to get to the spigot. The water in the pipes ahead of what is hot and warms the pipes is too cold in winter
(ambient temps) or Summer (A/C on, cooling pipes). Was happy to return home to Md with my Tank water heater. Which was reduced from a 50 gal to a 40 gal when the kids became teenagers, because Nothing gets them out of the hour long shower than running out of hot water.!!
Love the video, not knowing anything about tankless water hears gives me a great perspective of the difference. I’ve always had a tank but never in a garage that you most commonly see. And recently bought a home with tankless and for the most part love it but one thing i dont like is you have to run the sink for a while till it starts heating up. Don’t remember that being an issue with a tank. Thanks again
Whether it is tank or tankless if the water in the pipes is cool you have to wait for the hot water to reach where you are. Also if you are comparing your old house with the tank to the new house with the tankless on having to wait for the water to get hot....that is not fair. In your old house it is possible that the water heater was closer to the spot where you are referencing and the new house your water heater maybe further away.
If you want hot water quicker you can have a re-circulation pump put on (if it does not already have one) the water heater. This will re-circulate the water thru the pipes at each location that you put a valve on the faucet. This will give you almost instantaneous hot water at each location....most people put these valves on the faucets farthest from the heater and other locations where they would like hot water immediately. Example: Master bath and kitchen sink (for the dishwasher). Caveat is you will have some hot water in the cold water side for a few seconds or so since the re-circulation pump uses the pipes (cold and hot) to push the hot water thru. The temperature at each location is controlled by the valves put in. The valves close when the water gets warm so the system does not run all the time.
hi roger- I did an install of a navien tankless (also uses 2" pvc venting) in the basement of a house with the same exact issue as yours- 3" b-vent running through to roof. I just used the 3" B-vent as a chase to get to the attic. it passes code & it's super easy to do. although, I admit- this arrangement doesn't work if there's an offset in the vent, mid-story. also- navien is the only brand that is warrantied even if you're on well water. it helps that it's 100% stainless steel. the navien CAN use your existing 1/2" gas line, because it has a vacuum assist feature that ensures it will get the gas it needs, even through a 1/2" gas line up to 25' long.... with a little catch- the trunk line that 1/2" gas line is connected to still has to be sized to handle the total btu's of the new tankless plus the rest of the house.. .or it can produce negative pressures on the trunk line... which of course... isn't a good thing. in short- usually you still have to install a new gas line just for the new tankless. I like that the bradford model has the inlets on the top. very nice. oh- also, navien comes with a 15 year warranty on the heat exchanger.
For offsets, rinnai makes a flexible poly vent line that navien approved the use of. It’s terribly easy to install.
When my tank water heater started croaking a few years ago, I installed a Rheem ECOH200DVELN-1 and no regrets. In reality, it freed up WAY more space in the already cramped room than it did 'on paper', and endless hot water... It takes a bit for full hot water to get to the kitchen, but, while I had never timed it, it did with our tank water heater too. As far as maintenance, I'll admit, I neglected it a bit and went about two years before I did a service on it, but I did a 'time from dead cold to full hot' test both before and after the service and saw zero difference, so is annual maintenance really needed? I don't know - might be dictated by your water. One other bit - Install a filter on your hot water outlet - that will prevent any scale that breaks off from the heat exchanger from getting to your faucets and clogging them up. I put an iSpring WSP-50 on mine and I've actually seen bits of scale floating around in it while operating. At the same time I installed the new Rheem water heater, I also installed a whole house water filter and the sand and crud it's caught since then is amazing for 'clean' city water...
A filter on the outlet is a great idea, though that one is only rated to 100F. I like filters I can see into, but the only ones I can find rated for post-water heater temps are all stainless.
The maintenance is to clean the scale that builds up over time. It will ruin and plug a tankless heater over time. Just depends on how hard your water is. As Roger stated the size of the pipes for the heat exchange are very small...just like a radiator on your car....
All tank water heaters have a sacrificial rod inside that the water attacks as it sits and reacts to the metals in the tank. Once the sacrificial rod is used up then the water will start to attack where it can...be it the inside of the water heater or faucets, shower doors...etc.. Have you ever seen a while scale anywhere in your house over the years, mostly just before your tank heater fails?
Again, how long your heater will last without cleaning depends on how hard your water is. Here in AZ my city water comes it at a TDS level of 500 which is very hard water and will destroy the tankless heater very quickly....Either get a TDS meter or have your water tested for hardness if you want ....
You are headed in the right direction with what you installed but you left out the part that actually removes the minerals that cause the scale that won't be caught with a screen or paper filter.....you need to put in a salt water system or a polyphosphate filter to help clean the scale components.....
Just had to replace my tank water heater in October 2021. Considered a tankless, but the incremental costs of refitting the unit far exceeded any ROI. I installed an AO Smith 50 gallon gas tank unit three months ago and it runs great. I have 4 people in my home, so this size is adequate. The unit I replaced was another AO Smith that was 14 years old.
Never let anyone tell you what you did was wrong. Unless you want and respect their opinion...you have to do what is right for you.
If your the slightest skilled you can do that yourself. Pretty much everything is already at your disposal. Maybe lengthening supply lines amd electrical. It's not hard and you can save your self a ton of money.
@@cobravids Agreed. Its about $2500 to replace a 50 gallon water heater where I live. Its something many people can do themselves if they are reasonably handy. Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy 2024 in advance
This video is super helpful. It’s a tough decision but we went through your process and came to the same conclusion. After looking at the ROI/savings, we stuck with a tank. It was $6,000 to $8,000 for the unit, upgrades to electrical and gas line and install. The savings in gas based on the indoor location of the tank and usage would only be about $8.00 a month compared to a newer atmospheric vented 50 gallon tank. The savings aren’t as big as some sales people led us to believe because of how many more BTUs of gas are required compared to the tank. Also, the worry of running out of hot water knowing that it is “endless” would lead to longer showers and gas being burnt at 200,000 BTUs.
Thanks, Roger, for going through the reasons why you could not install a tankless and the pipes, gas, electric, vent issues involved. I want to switch to tankless (despite the upfront cost) but the plumbers I consulted noted these issues. They didn't explain them as clearly as you did though!
Most plumbers aren't familiar with tankless heaters but they won't tell you this. ELECTRIC tankless heaters are the best units, it's a very simple install where the hardest part is simply adding the additional 30amp breaks. That's it, Had mine up and running in no time. Love it
We’ve had a Rinnai tankless for over ten years. No problems. You do have to wait on the hot water to get to you, but once it’s there, it lasts forever. Just don’t turn it off before all of the cold water is cleared. It’s possible for some hot to remain in a long water line from previous use. Cold from the tankless startup will push it out and if you think you’ve got hot already, you’ll get a cold surprise before the uninterrupted hot reaches you! The plumber called it “sandwich” effect.
For about $150 you could put a recirculating pump on the water heater that will circulate hot water to all the fixtures in the house and then you will only have to wait about 5 secs for hot water. They even have timers or you could use a smart plug and set it from your phone. If you run it on 24/7 it is estimated that it cost 20 dollars a year and you will make that back on water waste. Even more with a timer. Good investment
@@pjmiller5457 Don't forget the valves that need to go in at each faucet you want instant hot water...unless you already have a dedicated return line to the water heater.....the pump will not recirculate the water without the valves at each faucet.
@@pjmiller5457 It will cost a lot more than the cost of the pump. You will have to install a new return line from each faucet to the pump/heater. That could cost a fortune. On top of that, now you are constantly reheating all the water in those UNINSULATED lines - completely negating the thesis of an on-demand system!
The old WH in my new house took a dump last year. I chose to go back with a 50 gallon NG Bradford power vent. Even getting the units at wholesale cost, it just made sense to go back with a tank. I don’t need endless hot water. Less components to break on a tank, and I like having 50 gallons of hot water on hand at all times. Tankless heaters serve a need, but I don’t have that need.
Hvac/plumber here. I would never put one in my house. You'll never get the return on saving energy simply because of the cost of installation and the yearly maintenance. I'll stick to my electric 50gal, yes I could go propane or oil but the cost of both would not be cheaper in the long run
@@mikeantj What would you recommend for a hydronic heating system; some in slab runs and some baseboard units. Thanks
I like Viessmann
@m rapacki And an 80% furnace isn’t a lower operating cost than a HE 97% either, right? This take is just wrong. I work on the wholesale side of the trades and wholesale pricing on tank units went up 37% this year across all manufacturers. The price for a 50 gallon power vent is now equal to the price of a tankless. So no, short term tankless makes more sense than ever and long term it has always made sense.
@m rapacki You’re right, numbers don’t lie but you failed to give me any so I’ll give you some:
- Since installing a tankless my energy bill has dropped by 60%
-The EZ series from Noritz has a 25 year warranty.
-That’s 4x the length of the standard warranty on tanked heaters.
How many tanked water heaters are you going to replace in that time….?
- Noritz tankless, $1300
- Base 40 gallon AV, $500 x 4 = $2000
This isn’t even figuring in the additional energy and operational cost savings. Obviously a tank should last beyond its 6 year warranty but so can the tankless. I think you get my point.
The technology on tankless has become much more affordable and reliable than it was ten years ago when your take was relevant.
I never knew this was even a thing, but wow, what an interesting video. Thank you for posting.
We have been installing Navien tankless units for years and they are amazing systems! I would only suggest switching to tankless if you are running out of hot water. It can be a big price jump to switch.
What if it's a new construction home and you could go either way? Would you go tankless?
@@JFlex76 If you never want to run out of hot water or have a big family then tankless is worth it. Especially if you are on propane or have expensive natural gas in your area. Tankless units usually need an annual maintenance and are a lot more complex. They can also have trouble if you have hard water or sediment from well water. Never buy an electric tankless!
I just installed a tankless a couple months ago. They are definitely a change, the biggest complaint I have about them is it can take an extra minute to get the hot water but, once it comes on it never stops. The biggest reason I did it was because the old water heater vent was barely passing code and was in a terrible spot in my bathroom. Had the perfect spot behind my HVAC stack, and had everything opened up for a remodel. Had to run new gas, vent, water and drain lines. Luckily my old neighbor is a journeyman plumber and helped me with all the plumbing. Would I tear apart my finished house to put one in, no. Would I put one in while I have access to everything and can do it easy, in a heartbeat.
Does your boiler have recirculation or a button start? Some of the newer models have a 2 pole input to start the boiler before you turn on the tap for faster hot water delivery.. Also if you have a trunk and branch system on your hot water side that can lead to longer wait times as there is more volume in the piping vs a manifold system.
@@FJB2020 no it doesn't. Its always been a trunk system, house was made in the 50's so I don't have the space or want for a manifold. It's just waiting for the heater to recognize that water is flowing and it needs to fire. They won't fire it certain flow conditions aren't met.
@m rapacki ok, most of the times you have copper lines, with a hot water tank you get thermal flowing, so the heat from the tanks keeps some hot water in the lines, if your home has PEX you will get more of a loss, If you take PEX and put your hand on it with hot water, it won’t burn you, but copper you can’t hang on the pipe for long…
@m rapacki ok, been doing this over 15 years with tankless, those pipes cool down a lot, don’t know where you live, but Florida vs Colorado. We also have what is called the sandwich effect, hard to explain. I agree with what your saying on the wait time, people complain to me about wasted water, but your saving on gas, vs the water heater… if your real close to the tankless you won’t have that delay.
@m rapacki ok I’ll try people say the water is hot then cold then hot.. so your in the kitchen you washing the fruit, most tankless need 5 secs of water to turn on, so you wash the fruit short time systems start then turn off, kinda like Morse code hot cold hot cold, your copper pipes really let heat escape, if you have PEX not as bad, just like home radiant heat those copper pipes emit heat. On a average your sink or shower head is maybe 5 gpm, so you say a minute. Take out the stopwatch and really measure the time before the water gets hot I would say more like 15 sec, or so maybe 30
The best handlebar mustache I’ve seen in a long time. Thanks for the info!!!
Happy to help!
That explains why I don't see them where I live. Our water is so hard you can practically walk on it due to the iron, sulfur, and calcium. And that's after it went through the water treatment plant.
Should talk about the delay of hot water to point of use over a tanked WH and why cold water sandwiches happen with tankless. Adding recirc pump.
Our HVAC guy recommended tankless. Said our installation would be a bit unusual, but not difficult. Made no mention of upgrading the gas lines. I am undecided. Will probably do a lifetime cost analysis when the time comes - and it is coming soon.
I had to get my tank water heater replaced yesterday because it was leaking out the bottom panel and flooding the garage (and being on a Sunday, it was extra pricey at $1415.00). I'm interested in tankless because I've heard that you won't have (or at least very limited) leak issues. But my house has no gas line at all.....it's all electric. Do they make electric-only tankless heaters? I have a single 240V conduit running in the alcove where the tank heater is now (and no other 120V outlets in there). Would a single 240V connection be enough to run a tankless system? Also, you mentioned vents.....is that for gas-run tankless only? My alcove has no vents. Thanks, and great video!
Noritz ez models are best for retrofit in regular tank water heater replacement because of there vent pipe setup and gas manifold regulator inside needing much less water column inches therefore they can be installed with a 1/2 gas pipe most often the time all depends of what’s inline connected in that branch so all I worry about is electric and condensation usually gravity if not possible then a condensation pump
I have a gas tankless water heater it's is the best purchases I've I have ever made so worth it. I have had it for 3 years now.
My biggest gripe with my tankless gas hot water system is that, if there is not enough flow on the hot water (say you want only a slightly warm shower, or shaving with a trickle of hot water running) the system will turn off and you will get completely cold water out of the hot water line. This of course cannot happen with a tank storage system.
no doubt depends on the system. our tankless does not seem to have that issue.
I was wondering when someone was going to mention this.
Upgrading soon to tankless. Can't wait. I love long showers, and our new home came with a Bradford white 40 gal.while being a nice water heater, it's not big enough for me, and I want endless for my long showers. I need the heat!
I’ve been repaired and installing tankless here in Marietta Ga for 20 years. I have a traditional 40 gallon tank in my house. The equation for tankless beyond initial costs is;
1. Room, do you have to have the room?
2. Usage; do you use so much hot water that you wear out tank type water heaters?
3. Home; are you gone from home a lot?
A yes answer above means that a tankless is needed. And Bradford White doesn’t make their own tankless. It’s someone else’s tankless with their label.
You left out is it a want or a need.....Any question that comes down to...yes I can do without or get by than it is a want....hehehhe
Just kidding...good points you made
Hey Tony, how reliable tankless are? what percentage of the Rinnai you install get issues you have to go fix?
I am one person who uses minimum hot water...
I've had my natural gas tankless system for twelve years now. I have yet to flush it and will do so soon. My hot water needs are very infrequent. It's just me here and I frequently work out of town. Even when home I often shower at the gym. My tankless system has saved me an innumerable amount of money over those years. Installed it myself btw.
Your story and mine are identical. I love tankless.
I have yet to get mine installed (been sitting on it for a bit) . I agree with your statement....
Installed my rheem paloma tankless 8yrs ago and haven't had no problem cut my gas bill around 30%. The only thing that u have to get use too is in the winter ground water temp is lower and it only runs 3 application but in the summer its 5. Great video thanks
What about winter gas bill? my gas bill goes up 5 times during winter, i like tankless, what makes me worried is cost of repair if anything goes wrong...
@@user-rx7th9hr4l u shouldn't have a problem if u buy a name brand like rheem and over size it. Also 1 thing u have to do is flust your tankless atleast once a year its very easy to do and it will last alot longer
I am putting in my own Tankless Heater....I moved my tank heater out of the corner in my garage about 5 feet over so I can put the tankless on the same wall that the tank heater was sitting up against where the water lines come in from the concrete floor. It is a perfect situation because my water lines only need to move to the bottom (as you stated), gas line is in the right spot, exhaust will go out the wall since it is an outside wall and there is electrical there for the water softener system. During all this I will have hot water because the tank system stays online till everything is done and will be there in the same spot temporarily to make sure the tankless works out.
Since the gas company will not change the meter without an inspection I submitted a permit request with the city (which technically is required anyway) and they will verify the gas requirements so I can go back to the gas company to get a bigger meter. Gas company will not put in a bigger meter without an inspection. Either the city does it or you pay someone to do the inspection. I could hire someone to do this (don't trust anyone anyway) but I am not sure that they would want to do this in multiple steps because of the gas requirements. My house was built new 20 years ago and the gas meter that was put in barely supports everything. I added a gas grill on the back patio that was stubbed out for gas when the house was built and it barely works because the pressure/volume is too low.
I have spec'd out the back wall for the tankless heater with condensate neutralizer, 3" exhaust/intake cover, valves for maintenance, iSpring whole house system with screen filter, polyphosphate softener, chemical remover and 3 stage filtration system. I also will have a drain pan under each system (tankless and whole house) along with a condensate pump to help pump the condensate from the water heater and the screen filter (whole house) flush up thru the pipes to the drain. As an added bonus I am hanging the water heater on a 3/4" plywood just a bit bigger for than the heater and putting a sheet of stainless steel behind the heater as an added bonus for fire and water spray if it were to happen for some reason. Overkill I know......
If you do your home work and research you can do this yourself if you are mechanically inclined. It can be over whelming only if you don't take your time to do it right.
I just got a Rheem 40 gallon gas water heater bought- installed by a local plumber. He went and got the heater, installed it and it works great. Now- he charged me $1,100.00 does this sound right?
You should go look at the Matt Rissenger water heater video on The Build Show talking about the high efficiency electric water heater from AO Smith with a heat pump integrated with the EPA as the sponsor.
Thanks for the info I will stick with the old tanker
Excellent choice of brand! The best American Built water heaters!
Had issue with water going cold after 10 minutes. Plumber said that I needed to run water at full flow. So waste water, save gas. But water conservation is usually the priority. Also low flow shower heads weren't providing enough flow.
Idk what brand you have but the units I install require a .4 gallon per minute flow rate to heat the water which should easily be achieved by a low flow shower head. If it was heating for 10 minutes and then stops then u are getting enough flow or it wouldn't start heating in the first place. It sounds like your heat exchanger might be over heating causing the unit to automatically shut down, caused by a dirty heat exchanger. Have you ever had it serviced and flushed out? I'm curious to know if the problem got solved and what the solution was.
@@remedialone6987 The problem occurred when brand new. I have that recirculation pump that a the press of a button in the house, recirculates the water until it comes back hot. I have a three-story townhouse so it takes three minutes for it to completely re-circulate, then it stops.
I've heard several complaints from people that claim tankless doesn't really save you money but if you dig deeper they are using them incorrectly for money savings . I love our whole house tankless and it definitely saves us money . You should find the temp that is comfortable to take a shower without having to add cold water . If you're adding cold water then you have the temp set too high and you are simply wasting energy to cool it back down . We set ours at 113 degrees and it does well . Second is if you know you have unlimited hot water then you and the rest of the family tend to take longer showers which will diminish any savings .
I'm just one person who tkaes shower in 2 min, i've been thinking about tankless for a while, the natrual gas prices are going up significantly,
What's holding me back is cost of repair of tankless, i can replace a tank heater myself , but for tankless i should call plumber and that can be very expensive..
If i could rest assure my tankless is going to work for years with annual maintaine, Tankless would be my option... Did you calculate if tankless is going to really save enegy or not?
I'm a fan of electric/heatpump hybrids. With the correct size tank and a piped in recirculator, I think they're the best bang for buck! With tankless, I'm not a fan of the wasted water and delay to get hot water to fixture, install and maintenance cost. As a maintenance contractor for hundreds of properties, many of the tankless units now hitting the 3 year marks are starting to be problematic, even with yearly service. We've gone back to tanks in most of our multi-unit buildings, because we receive way too many service calls on them.
went tankless my self. my main hot water use like showers are all within 5ft of the tankless unit.
Tankless units are rife with problems and require extra maintenance.
Tankless units don’t take any longer to get water to your fixture than tank units do, and a plethora of them support recirculating. As far as them being rife with issues, the cheaper you go, the more problems you will have.
t water heaters are pretty tough to beat. I'm alone in a 100 year old house and my $50 gallon gas hot water heater costs me 5-6 therms a month and I get 12+ years out of each one (#3 is being replaced next week after 14 years).What's not to love about cheap and reliable?
Kids will use anything you give them, maybe they are best taught about real life limits with something like this. If you really don't need a huge amount f hot water 9I mean really need not just want) I'd think long and hard about springing for a tankless, any money you save on gas will be spent on yearly flushing.
I've got a condensing Rheem tank water heater - we've never had limited hot water and it's 90% efficient. Why did I go condensing tank heater? It gave many of the same benefits as a tankless but at 2/3 the cost.
I want tankless a few years ago. I love it! I already had an en electric water heater, So I only had to add 2 more 220 lines. My only problem is my kitchen sink does not flow enough water to trigger the water heater to turn on. So I time doing my dishes with a load of laundry to have enough flow to heat the water. LOL
My father installed one and taught me. Very easy actually. Maybe because I have hands on welding, carpentry, and auto mechanic but either way still easy because I don’t know plumbing or electrical at all.
I agree that there are too many changes for me install tankless. Our hot water usage is low, and the tank heater keeps up just fine. My home is ten years old, and I am the original owner. I installed a water treatment system when I moved into the house. My plumbing is PEX, and my fixtures still look fine. I have drained the water heater twice in the ten years with no evidence of sediment. I will certainly go back to a tank water heater to avoid installation issues.
Great points… I went tankless last year and happy I did…
Glad it worked out for you
I installed a tankless propane powered water heater and its great, went from paying a fortune for ones that run off electricity to now about $3 a month for hot water.
Whereabouts are you located? Here in FL, propane is running about $4/gal. right now. Wonder if there's an app for propane prices...for determining our next travel destination...lol
I have installed many tankless water heaters and then are awesome
Tank style heaters have a vacation mode 👍
i have a tank less gas propane unit and dam it saves me a ton of money. yes it is not for everyone but the pros are worth it.
Honest question. If you have a type-B exhaust already plumbed why can you stick the PVC inside the metal vent and seal around the PCV so the only way out is through the B vent?
I put in a few small tankless electric heaters in RV's around here and they work out fine on a 50 amp system, not so much on a 30 amp though.
I stuck with a tank type on mine however mine is quite unique as it's a 40 gallon electric tank mounted on a polymer pallet and plumbed in ahead of the stock 5 gallon RV pig tank. If I move the trailer I can disconnect the tank pretty easily via railroad gladhands, twist lock electric lines and proper rated hoses as long as the pressure is bled off first. The tank, once drained, can be loaded into the bed of a truck, trailer buttoned up and hooked up and off we go. I could easily go tankless but I think differently. Also the water tank I have was given to me, the rest I collected from the job, with permission of course.
I am a plumber in South Florida. Extensive experience with with tank and tankless. Mostly agree with your comparison. However, you didn't mention that tankless do not work well with thermostatic shower/tub faucets unless used in conjunction with a storage tank. And in case of water emergency you have enough to last a few days with a tank - found it to be a lifeline in hurricane Andrew aftermath. After you pipe everything in both heaters take up nearly the same space. We also use electric tankless - smaller ones are terrible.
I installed a tankless heater 7 years ago. Never an issue with the thermostatic valves whatsoever. My water pressure is great, and so it is the gas pressure. These units require adecuate preassures or wont work correctly. I love unlimited hot water and savings. Some negatives or things to consider: it takes longer for water to reach point of use (waste of water) , require annual maintenance (if you pay a plumber it will break even with your gas savings) and lastly you do not have hot water in a black out. Lastly many plumbers do not work on these units in the US.
@@TheGonso35 it does not happen in all, but in some cases the thermostatic faucets will hunt for constant hot supply. As the hot water reaches such faucet, the hot gets throttled down to maintain temperature until the flow switch in the tankless turns off the burner and then thermostatic valve will hunt for hot again causing fluctuations in cycles. I usually add a small storage tank to buffer this condition or switch to a tank or replace the faucet(s) to pressure balanced system.
@@TheGonso35 Put a recirc pump on for the hot water delay, Annual maintenance can be taught to anyone unless the installer did not put in access ports...than that is an issue, To solve the electricity issue if you live in a place pron to power outages or weather outages than get a generator (preferably a style like a Generac) so you have power for how water and a couple other appliances...i would assume that natural gas is available during these outages.....but i could be wrong...You can always find someone to work on it....as they become more popular...
@@slickerthanslick1234 I’ve also never heard of thermostatic issues with a tankless. The only way your description makes sense is if they’re trying to take a 75 degree shower, or if they’re some really cheap thermostatic valves. Quality thermostatic would open the gate for cold, not slam it shut on hot.
@Viktor Ilinets Hey Viktor, how reliable tankless are? what percentage of the Rinnai you install get issues you have to go fix?
I am one person who uses minimum hot water... Some people love tankless, some don't, only thing that matters to me is having a heater that works many years with less hassle using less natrual gas to lower my bills(my gas bill has doubled comparing to 2 years ago, during winter my gas bill goes up 5 times), what hold me back is the cost of plumber who has come to fix if i need repair on tankless, with tank, it's much easier and cheaper...
Great information for those seeking to switch to a tankless. Personally would never do it. I run a electric heat pump model, beat the gas heaters hands down.
@@PLC808 I have a Bradford White, they’re the best anyone has to offer.
Tank heaters are becoming phased out rapidly, and no, electric does not beat atmospheric in any circumstance.
@@syreplays5079 water heater market is over 9 million tank type world wide, per year, I don’t believe they’ll ever be phased out. Take a look at the electric heat pump water heater, they definitely don’t have the recovery rate of a gas type but use far less energy than a tankless or tank type.
@@michiganracer1181 and tankless is over 2.8 billion worldwide.
Heat pump heaters aren’t good. They have horrible recovery rates, and when compare to a gas tankless (most common), the yearly operating cost remains similar.
@@syreplays5079 I was stating numbers in unit sales not sales dollar value, and yes I agree as I stated heat pump doesn’t have good recovery rates.
My mom got a tankless water heater at her house. She had all of us, her family,, at her house. It was about six people all fighting over the showers and the dishwasher. We had plenty of hot water and the hot water would get to us quickly. A definite Improvement.
Saying you had plenty of hot water with a tankless unit is redundant. That's the entire point of them, endless hot water.
Quick question. First let me say great video. I'm thinking about going tankless also. My regular water heater is in my garage inside a little cove next to an outside wall. I'm going to make my tankless an outside unit. Mine is a gas unit, and it is right next to my gas line. So now I will be able to put a sink in my garage in the alcove the regular water heater was. So my question is, why don't you put your tankless outside? Then you can bypass the vent issue you would have.
You can but depending how cold it gets in your area it could have an affect on how hot the water will get for your needs....why not put it on the inside and just run the vent straight out the wall to the outside....they make a 2" or 3" system for condensing heaters that have a plate the mounts on the outside of the wall and you run the intake and exhaust pipe into the plate that is protected from weather......
Look up Horizontal Vent Termination Kit for High Efficiency Tankless Gas Water Heaters....
Replaced my two 40 gal water heaters and water floor radiant heat furnace with two gas tankless water heaters. One tankless is just for hot water and the second unit does both hot water and radiant floor heating. The wall mounted tankless system freed up a lot room in the small utility closet and garage area. I was able to add a whole house water softener in the same closet with the tankless water heater that only fit a 40 gal hot water heater before. I also have hot/cold connections and I connected a Y connector and garden hose to wash the car in the winter with lukewarm water instead of ice cold water when temps are +55 degrees F.
Thanks for this video and about having your water treated for the tank list
No problem 👍
What are the options of installing a tankless on a new build? Can you do a video on that topic?
Switched to Rinnai tankless last month. My main problem was space. I have a < 900sq ft house and the tank water heater took up half our laundry room. Now with the tankless mounted on the wall we were able to remodel our laundry room and get all that space back. Also our old tank water heater was electric and costs ~$600 a year to run, the new tankless should be closer to $200.
They say Rinnai is the best as long as you use a plumbing company who is trained in Rinnai water Heaters.
@@jnick303 they are the best, coming from a plumber that installs them.
@@jnick303 sounds like a scheme to corner your money in their pockets...i refuse to buy from companies like that.
I've been thinking about going tankless for a while now, what's holding me back is cost of repairing them in long run, i can change a tank water heater myself, but for Rinnai you have to call the plumber who isntalled it and that costs money...
At the same time cost of energy only going up, my gas bills goes up 5 times during winter, comparing 2022 winter with 2020 winter. my natrual gas bill has doubled.
I was always curious when you show this tank water heater. In Poland I saw such thing in my grandfathers house in 90s and heat was not from gas/electric but by pipes from central heat system which was powered by coal. In Poland all houses which need it has tankless heater and it works not only for hot water but also for central heat, had two pipes system one for central heat water and another one for drink water.
This is 2 weeks later but what you described is a boiler/combi. It heats the water to be ran through radiant heat/floorboard/ and acts a water heater. Very common in Europe just like mini splits. They're way ahead in terms of efficiency.
@@steveb8897 Ditto on your comments.
I have had a tankless before and love them and I am building a new house and will be going with a tankless water heater. But I would like to know what brand of tankless water heater would you suggest? I have an idea on who I would like, but looking for possible other brands that I would further research.
Noritz ez 40,is made to replace conventional water heaters,condensing unit so it uses a corrugated plastic vent hose that slides into the existing venting. I've had good results with these
Roger, most of these condensing tankless water heaters take 2 inch PVC it will fit nicely up your 3 inch Bvent
I think it depends on how much hot water you use. Maybe on new construction it might make sense. Retired couples probably don't need it. There is a way to put a timer on an electric tank unit. Most people probably don't have a softener or do the required yearly deliming on a tankless and if they can't do it themselves is it worth having one to save money on gas? Then there is the power outage issue.
What would be your choice if it was new construction?
Just like you, our water heater is in our garage, when we went tankless, we converted from electric to gas so we had the outlet but they had to run a gas line to where the heater was going. The meter was just on the other side of the exterior wall so it wasn’t too much of a job, but instead of running the exhaust vent through the roof, they ran it through the exterior wall instead.
Now that all is said and done, we regret nothing and love our tankless water heater and haven’t looked back.
Couldn't get water pressure to the shower...both kitchen and bathroom sinks were ok..I do not use hot water in my washing machine and do not have a dishwasher...so I had to keep my tank heater..needed to up grade electricity to it also...the idea of thankless is great but very disappointed with hook up and water pressure change...thanks for the video..
I have been installing Rinnai for over 15 years, the main reason is they work, and replacement parts are dirt cheap.. but I don’t know about your garage and if you have a outside wall, just slap it on the outside wall, or move to crawl space. Most of the time, gas meters are on the garage side, but who knows, the code thing is if you in a condition space or not.easy to get condensing and non condensing.
Also don’t have to get a 199.000 btu you can get a 165.000 btu. Both ramp up from 125.000 btu or so. I could go on, it’s just having experience. Most of the issues, are gas line sizing…..
not sure about the lower end tankless brand or the older models, but some of the latest new models use 1/2 in gas line rather than the 3/4 in. For electric plug, you do not need new outlet or upgrade electric panel, since these tankless doesn't draw much power. It has a switch board with requires a minimum voltage. If any home has a garage opener, then likely you can just run an extension cable from it. Other than isntaller solar, going tankless was the second best thing I invest for my home.
Keep in mind any condensing combustion unit creates an acidic condensation. It can’t be routed to metallic drains without a neutralizer.
Most novice homeowners who install will miss that point....
This was excellent !!
How do you like the Bradford whites? I’ve always used rinnai and they are amazing
Two more cons to tankless are instant cold water if the power goes out (happened to me while I was in the shower and covered in soap) and a small con of the start delay of if you are intermittently using hot water to rinse dishes the water will pulse hot cold hot cold hot cold. You have to constantly run the water to keep it running, usually around .75gpm.
fill the sink up with water then rinse by dunking the dishes in the water......btw it is better to rinse cold than using hot water....gets the soap off better....ever have bubbles coming up the drain....spray them down with hot water then try cold...they go away faster with cold....
I guess that would be an issue with an electric tankless. Or maybe gas tankless units require electricity too?
Called a sandwich. I understand a well qualified plumber has a workaround for this.
I want one but the nearest outlet is 20 ft away. Should I count on installing a new electrical outlet near the gas tankless location?
I recently bought a 1 bedroom townhouse and I am thinking about switching from tank to electric tankless for the endless hot water
Hello. Great video. I've been wanting to replace my large tank water heater when it hits 15 years. I wanted to go tankless:
1. Because we went from 4 people to 1 person in the house so a lot of gas loss in heating a large large tank for 1 person use.
2. I understand the new tanks require a significant change to the venting requirements anyway.
3. I want to stop leasing the tank.
However, I use rainwater in the house. You mentioned in the video, this would be a problem. Can you please advise ?
Where do you live where you have to leas the tank???
@@davidcurtis5398 Niagara, Ontario, Canada.
Man oh man... I've never heard of this. Can you tell me why???
@@davidcurtis5398 you don't have to rent it. More and more.people buy them but it's just the way it is.
I pay 17 a month and every 13 years or so, I call them say it leaked a but and they install a new one.
But.i understand the cheminy requirements have changed now so it would be much more involved to simply swap it out
I just bought a 9.8 gpm tankless water heater simply because I wanted unlimited hot water availability. I have not yet installed it but am looking forward to all the benefits it will bring. And being a single man in a rather small house (can you say "overkill?"), that will be truly unlimited hot water for me. BTW, I paid less than 50¢ on the $ by buying it brand new through an auction that handles store returns and overstock items. BONUS!!!
always love your videos , you do great videos , can always learn a lot from your shows !!
IBC Combo units are the best in my opinion. Never have an issue and if you do they are SUPER easy to work on
I appreciate this video. I thought switching to tankless was as easy as pulling out the tank and hooking everything up to the tankless unit. I live in a mobile home, so changing gas lines and running power (to code) isn't as simple as many think. I'm still very interested in making the switch, but now I'll be asking the right questions when I get an estimate. Thanks for the info!
I installed a 200k BTU/hr tankless water heater by myself, just a homeowner (fully inspected). I took my time but the most work went into drywall and painting the new closet that appeared in my house. Much easier than what is told in this video. I even painted the PVC vents on the roof so that they don't get damaged by UV. The comment about electricity is very odd, it doesn't take much electricity at all and any outlet is fine. In many parts of the country like you can get outdoors units that are borderline trivial to install as they require no vents
I think he is talking about electric tankless water heaters that don't have any gas. It's obviously going to require much more power to heat up the water versus a gas tankless water heater that only needs power for the fan.
I have a long, narrow house in Las Vegas. It was originally an all-electric house from about 1955. There was no gas service. When we did a complete repipe, I added natural gas [level 2 pressure] and put TWO tankless water heaters. Gas bill for them is minimal; maybe its $25 a month. That down from $125 for the single electric water heater. They are both mounted outside so the electrical service and exhaust location were no issue at all.
One of them is a recirculating unit, Knowing what I know now, I would have installed BOTH as recirculating units. They have operator panels where you can adjust the water temp and turn the recirculation on or off. Unfortunately, I have to draw about a gallon of water before it heats up in the kitchen, where there is no recirculation.
The other unit works great. However, there is only one operator panel in the master bedroom. I should have put a panel in each bathroom and connected them in series. I did not understand this when we installed them.
One significant downside of tankless, one that never gets mentioned, is that it is TANKLESS. If you live in earthquake or tornado country and lose your water service for a day or so - as has happened to me a couple times - you do not have a reserve supply of water until the service is restored. A water heater will give you three or four days of drinking water, depending on its size. With tankless, you have to buy a pallet of bottled water and keep changing out the bottles, using up the old and replacing it with new.
I love your vids, Roger. I'm going to start wearing starched logo work shirts when I go under the house, too. And thanks for the margarita disposer mixer. It's the hit of any party!!!
Literally, a couple of weeks ago, I had been considering on talking to my landlord about upgrading to tankless. The cost, the work to be done, etc... Not worth it. Time to just call him in and have someone clean it out, because I've been in this place for 7 years, and it's never been touched.
So happy, that cut all of this crap off the wall and went back to good old tank. Peace of mind. Was suffering like idiot 10 years, wasting money and time for constant repair and maintenance.
Really good video. You have a great personality on camera and you can tell you know exactly what you're talking about. One tiny thing, and I truly hate to be nit picky, but why during the edit did someone decide to use the camera angle where you're not looking into that camera? It's just a tad bit weird. But hey, a small price to pay for an otherwise great video. My wife and I were debating whether to go tankless, and you've given us our answer. Thank you.
Switched to tankless, not sure about the cost saving on gas as gas prices keep going up. would 100% recommend it, no more somewhat warm early morning first showers, however I needed to install a under sink recirculating pump on the second floor with a FM remote button. This reduces the wait time for hot water at the taps.
I have hot water tanks in my house but in my shop where I seldom use hot water the tankless makes more sense than to keep a tank of water hot for weeks at a time without using it.
What brand would you say is good for tankless.
Rinnai and Navien are both good units.
I like the remote on a tankless. Set the exact temp I want and take a shower