Why Do Fighting Game Characters Get Banned?
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- Опубліковано 22 тра 2024
- From SF2 Turbo Akuma to DBFZ Lab Coat 21, a lot of fighting game characters have been banned from competitive tournaments for a variety of reasons.
Today we'll take a look at some reasons that lead to characters getting banned and some of the notable examples throughout the history of fighting games.
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0:00 - Intro
0:57 - Console Exclusive Characters
3:08 - Boss/Hidden Characters
5:18 - Overpowered Characters
10:01 - Conclusion
#esports #gaming #fightinggames - Ігри
>People come to spectate a fighting game
>A fight breaks out
>People intervene to stop the fight
Can't even have a bonus round these days...
O
M
G
XD
😂😂😂
Lol
All fun and games till I hit that brutality
@@Konyyaanor tea bag taunt
6:13 For those wondering why Kakyoin is banned, its because *nobody can deflect the Emerald Splash!*
Wait serious? Emerald splash is THAT op in hftf?
@@grafi8430yeah no idea but that’s a direct jojo meme so probably not
@@grafi8430Emerald splash isnt that bad, its just an in joke with jojo stuff. The real reason Kakyoin is banned is not for one specific reason, but rather his overwhelming power in pretty much all aspects of the game.
Hftf has a stand system where you can basically change between 2 entirely different move sets on the fly. Kakyoin, in stand on and stand off, can cover anything you could possibly do. One second he is zoning you cross screen with stretchy normals, next second he is up in your face with overwhelming pressure, and the next he's calling out all of your approach options from mid screen.
Overall, very very strong, in a game where pretty much everyone has at least 1 weakness that can be exploited. There are a couple characters who have similar tools or even copy tools from Kakyoin like Rubber Soul, so if you like him theres bound to be someone who can do your favorite part of his kit but with, like, a weakness.
@@picklechip9294 yeah I get the joke I hear it all the time I just wanna the actual reason as to why he's banned so thank you for the explanation
@@grafi8430lol Dio dodge them just fine
I would say you had a misconception about petshop. He isnt banned because he can fly. He is banned because of the earlier stuff you dissmissed, and this is what most top players agree on. Also if petshop was banned because of his hitbox then iggy would aswell since he can dodge alot of mids and also invalidate many combos bu he doesnt have the same bs that petshop does
That is true, while Petshop's ability to negate lows is incredible, it wouldn't be enough to make it truly busted if wasn't for the fact that Petshop has some very absurd tools that makes playing as him, just feel like you're god against peasants.
It’s so funny because modern HTFTF knowledge just means petshop is a mid tier
The real shocker was finding out with time that Kakoyin was possibly more unbalanced than Petshop.
Being immune to most lows is more valuable of a trait than being immune to mids or highs to be fair.
Yeah, it's really stuff like being able to do a low sweep while also creating an icicle that is an overhead that makes him busted.
In the case of Steve, he came out when people couldn't play in person and it took a long time for him to be discovered, SO LONG in fact that by the time his potential was unlocked, Smash Ult had since long ended development. Never count out the possibility of even patchable games to end unbalanced
A lot of the tech that made him banned was discovered week 1 but people weren't able to perform it consistently till the end of the development cycle (which i think is a bs concept, nintendo should put like a dozen devs to patch it while it still makes them money and leave the rest of the workforce for the next smash)
Not being able to play in person affected his discoverability, but in fact he's considered stronger online. People weren't taking his results seriously when they were online, which proved correct at the start as no one was able to perform well with him even after quarantine ended for a very long time. He's just a very different character and took a very long time to figure out, he isn't like bayo or meta knight where it was instantly obvious they were broken
Hitstun cancelling with PMLG is the only thing that put him close to the edge. He was always going to take a while to develop though.
@@nathanlevesque7812 true but I'm not even seeing anyone using it
@@Eroil I don't think the fact that it's "not used" is a good reason against banning a technique that can cancel hitstun.
It's not the easiest thing in the world to perform like wobbling, true, but I really don't think we need to wait until we find that one Steve player who can pull it off 50% of the time or more in tournament and win with it. And no, arguing that just because it's not being used all the time or that Acola isn't winning everything with it isn't a valid point. It's incredibly incredulous to me that people can see a tech that, when executed correctly, cancels ALL HITSTUN for a character (which makes 99% of all moves in Ult unsafe, period), and their main (only?) reason we should let it be is because the consistency of using it isn't higher than 50%. Then you're implying/hoping that the consistency rate will NEVER rise above 50% (or even 40%), and I have extreme doubts that a young talent like Acola or any of the younger kids rising up post-lockdown won't try to practice it until they can do it more often than not.
If there were a few other facets to it (it's doable by every single character instead of just Steve even if it has wildly varying reliability to hit, or it didn't cancel ALL hitstun, or it cancelled hitstun but Steve has to double jump or something before being able to act, etc.), or if it didn't exist at all, I would be very staunchly on the "Steve's matchups and weaknesses need to be learned" camp of not banning him. Otherwise he's basically in the same camp as Sora but on the opposite end of the scale. PMLG changes that to the point it's honestly almost mandatory.
0:27 the "pick someone else" from tweedy isn't because he's mad sonic is playing an OP character, he's mad sonic is trying to play a mirror match. he's saying "Get off my character, i just schooled you". And not "stop playing the character I think should be banned."
Real
what an obnoxious asshole to ask the opponent to change, for any reason, but for picking the same character, thats the limit of stupidity
which match was it?
Ived watched this ..sonic both played MVC and MK 😊
Minecraft Steve being an OP fighting game character is objectively hilarious
I feel like to balance him out he should have a resource management and if he runs out, boom he's vulnerable
@@izcube8971 He does, he just gains resources so fast, and his neutal is so uniquely time-sucking and defensive, that you basically never runs out of resources unless you're in disadvantage for like a 45 seconds.
@tumultoustortellini plus Steve players are insane and lab literally everything they can 24/7. Big time tech junkies
@@xBIGFLATSx Steve: Never put him in a game cause you will not be able to balance him
@@xBIGFLATSx The point was that Minecraft is notorious for having awful, janky, shallow combat. So having Steve show up and have all these tools and power is very eyeroll-inducing.
While yoda was a console exclusive, the main issue with him is most characters did not have proper hitstrings that could actually combo him. Weak punishes meant Yoda would take extremely minimal damage, would cut a large chunk of usable skills from the opponent, and was generally just a menace.
Even winning against yoda didnt feel like Soulcalibur, you were just trying to fence this lame character out with stray single hits. Absolutely zero fun.
I'm not even sure if Yoda was considered top tier by the community or anything. Trying to adjust to Yoda's hurtbox and missing on most of your moves was enough to make them dislike him.
Yoda was also legit broken. Not "broken" as in "extremely overpowered" like Day 1 Bayonetta or Lab Coat 21, but "broken" as in _he did not follow the same rules as the rest of the cast._
Yoda being so small meant that high attacks automatically missed, many of his own attacks made him airborne, so whiff- or even block-punishing was tricky, and throws _straight up didn't work._
Even when he and Vader were allowed on their "opposite" consoles later as DLC, Yoda was still broken as balances patches were few and far between back then.
Nah Yoda was actually the worst Character in the game once the star wars Characters became legal in tourney once they were available on other consoles. His issue was range, lack of consistent knds and some damage on top of having legit 9-1 matchups against him vs Asta, sieg and NM cause of pushback of moves and he couldn't punish them. In Asta case he has some grabs that can work on Yoda. Also he has lower soul guard health then everyone else so he get guard broken way easier and faster. France still kept the star wars Characters banned for reasons.
Yoda being immune to grabs didn't help the situation either.
PetShop is actually banned because of his setups and damage output. His changes to the neutral game due to his flight aren't really what caused but are a factor for it
ExAgunimon(Digimon Battle Spirit 2)And SSj2 Goku(Dragonball Z Supersonic Warriors 2)Should Be Banned For Sure!I Got As Many As 1700 With ExAgunimon ON HARD MODE Once!No Cheats!And With Goku SS2,I Murdered Z-Battle On Hard Difficulty!WHEN ALL MY OPPONENTS WERE ALSO IN BOSS MODE!
@@chimuoma390what
Not o ly that bit he had unblockable setups and could tod in the corner
There's some pretty bad misinformation on your section on Pet Shop. He's not banned because of flight. Iggy's also invalidates many combos and changes how you play neutral, but he's not banned. Pet Shop is banned pretty much exclusively because of the reasons you dismissed, as well as his insane guard cancel.
Being immune to lows is a lot better than being immune to many highs to be fair. But yeah Petshop being immune to lows could be tolerable if they had like, no damage or pressure.
@@caldw615 Problem would seem to be that Pet Shop gets so many tools to use on everyone else while everyone else gets their tools gutted against Pet Shop
Do you know why kakyoin is banned?
@@franxvalley7294broken neutral and oki, nets basically mean as soon as he sets up one net the round is just over
@@franxvalley7294 Extremely well-rounded and is a threat anywhere on the screen.
It's funny how they mention Hilde being banned for being able to kill off of one confirm but then unironically say Pet Shop's looping unblockable setup isn't actually banworthy
thats because hftf is littered with infinites and tods compared to soulcaliber
petshop has been banned since basically release tho
The DBFZ one is especially egregious because the Lab21 release patch was intended to be the last balancing patch the game would receive, and it wasnt until she was starting to get banned at big tournaments that they panicked and nerfed her.
It really killed my motivation for the game lol and haven't really touched it since and it was my favorite then too, the only DLC i didn't purchase. Granted Vegito was a bunch of bs too 😂
@@Rizvi365the balance patch was a necessity. Was tired of vegito gogeta ssj4/blue n labcoat… they build way too much meter and are just broken characters. Games better now
But they do this with every new character. Release a broken DLC character so everyone buys them then nerf them after.
@@MrDeldris ExAgunimon In Digimon Battle Spirit 2 Is A Ban-Worthy Fighter!I Got 1700 D-Spirits On Hard With Him!His Beast Spirit Evolution,KaiserGreymon's Air+Up+B,Meteor Blade,Is The Battle Spirit Equivalent To Shao Kahn's Shoulder Charge!Complete With Super Armor!His Down+B Flame Sword Beam Projectile,Flame Dragon Strike,Is Equally Broken!I'm Surprised The Battle Spirit Games Were Never Played In Tournaments!
It's important to note that most of the reasons explaining why a character was busted in the video were actually just the cherry on top of what already make a character strong, including but not limited to: strong neutral tools, strong mix-ups, high damage output etc...
Base game characters usually lack certain tool to compensate for their strong points (for example high damage but bad/no mix up). DLC characters tend to straight up have every good tool with little to no down side.
You can win with any character since you're given the tools to win with any of them. What creates a meta is determening the risk/reward factors and which character yields the most consistent success-rate. You get this by factoring in: fast buttons that can challenge the opponent's approach, high and consistent damage that minimises the amount of interactions in a match, particular advantages that other character's don't have, ease of use, etc.
@@leithaziz2716 Brawl Ganondorf would like to disagree.
@@LloydTheZephyrian Well, I should have re-iterated with MODERN characters ^_^
This is usually why a given character is top 1 in most modern fighting games, too. They don't tend to have one singular tool or attribute that takes them all the way from mid tier to top 1. Usually, it's that they're at least good at basically everything (though, often, one really good tool does nudge them from top 3 or 5 to top 1). Like, pre-nerf Happy Chaos in Guilty Gear Strive already had some of the best neutral and pressure in the game, and his defensive options were fine, but the overtuned nature of his zoning made him the best.
@@juniperrodley9843HC actually got better after his "nerf" taking him from tentative top 1 with debate to easily top 1 due to his improves rushdown
Short answer: if a character is so over powered that the competitive meta of the game revolves around them and they invalidate the majority (of not all) of the roster they get the ban hammer, no one wants SF1 roster size.
Meta Knight’s worst matchup in brawl was a 50/50 against 7 characters (he’s included in this group of 7). And of the 6 that weren’t him most had a 20/80 matchup that wasn’t in their favor. So, most tournaments were full of meta knight and occasionally you’d see the 6 other characters, but mostly just Meta Knight.
It was a game of Meta Knight be Meta Knight.
Your comment reminds me of Smash 4 Bayonetta.
Super Meta Knight Brothers.
Funny thing about Meta knight is that one of the reasons he didnt get banned was because the top players whom all basically played him wouldnt play if he wasnt legal so they essentially ended up holding the game hostage.
@@Geddn Japanese crybabies still argue against Steve bans as well. We should just seperate the tournaments if they don't want to follow the rules and hold the scene hostage
Hey HFTF player here. While Petshops ability to cripple some matchups is good the reason he is banned is his icicle move wich lets him set up unblockables in offense, defense and in neutral. That mixed with that he can TOD off of these is why he was banned.
So essentially his infinite is what got him banned
Why was Kakyoin banned tho?
Yeah
@@typhoonzebra heirophant setups were wild but I think there was a bit more too
@@typhoonzebra He was banned for being literally able to do everything extremely good paired with nets. It took a while for people to truly realize how powerful he was wich is why he was only banned in 2020(I think) while Petshop was basically banned day 1 of the competitive scene.
Eddie Gordo was banned in my house as a kid, the repeated low attack combo's sent my brother in to fits of rage.
Eddie is so easy to parry and block if yk most of ur opponent's attacks r going 2 be gay ass lows just parry bro
8 y/o don't parry, they mash.@@badyellowbitchlikeavixen
I used to throw and smash my controller, which causes me to always buy new one or have spare controllers. For what? that pathetic almost forever to charge paul phoenix insane punch. My elder bro's favorite in tekken os paul phoenix, and he just spams that punch, though he can combo on most characters, as i also do. But that punch, i always dodge or break before hitting. But in times that the battle was critical, that punch is effing frustrating when it hit. Thus, i rage when it does, and in some cases i have to smash my controller to the ground. Specially when i know i should had dodged it or wouldn't had reached me or i would had stopped it before paul phoenix releases his punch.That was like more than 15 yrs ago...
Low spams
Steve isn't banned because "it just feels right" pmlg literally allows steve to escape hitstun, and wobbling was banned because it was an unescapable infinite off a grab, not because "it just felt right"
smash players that want good representation for the characters when steve enters creative mode
tbh, it's a good thing he's banned, even if pmlg didn't exist. He was undeniably top 1, head an od shoulders above the rest. I'm glad my scene doesn't allow for him (except in gentlemans).
Steve should be internationally/universally banned for essentially being able to do the things that make stages from melee banned, i.e. create cave of life, platform camping far-away.
And sooooo much more, why is he allowed 8 blocks from the get go... 8!!!!
It should start at 1 and cap at 3, even then he'd still be better than Smash 4 Bayo lol
Sigh the only silver lining is that he's so boring top players don't take to him.
Meta Knight was also never actually banned. Technically people may have said so in certain regions, but the difference is that the character was never banned in any sort of meaningful event ever.
Hell, the game would have been awful with Meta Knight banned if it had actually gone through because a bunch of top players would have just quit AND even worse Ice Climbers would have been by far the best character.
Wobbling was very much banned "because it felt right"
Their inescapable infinite off a grab put them at 8th on the tier list. They weren't broken, and nor were they some incredibly divisive force in the metagame (they arguably helped the viability of many chars lower than them.
Many of the same arguments for wobbling apply equally to handoffs, their by and large replacement for wobbling, and banning it made them dependant on literal rng for midstage punishes.
Wobbling was banned because people didn't like it
You know a character is broken when sonicfox picks them
yeah, yeah. stay hating
@@ditch_magnet I will.
@@ditch_magnet put away your sonicfox body pillow in public dude
gotta love the little drip goku that shows up for some of the dbfz clips
You're forgetting that lab coat was also banned because she had 6 lows, good damage, crazy easy rejumps, a barrier that converts into a full combos, an overhead that's immune to 2h, insane full screen lariat that is air invincible and combined with an assist can immediately get you a turn which also bodies the most consistent way of making a comeback, that being spark into vanish, and an air grab that heals her
I could never play fighterZ bruh.
I gotta memorize every other character I don't play? Tf
@@Civic-Sagas-Stats As wild as that statement is, yeah Fighterz is somehow one of the most basic. If I had to choose between remember KOF mechanics or FighterZ mechanics in one week, you bet your ass it's FighterZ
Ignoring the 6 lows, most good characters had those things. The only reason she was banned was because of the command grab, realistically speaking.
@@zage932u kinda have to do that in all fighting games
@@zage932That's... Just fighting games... If you don't know what your enemy can do then you're prolly gonna lose cuz everything's a surprise
Little sad that he didn't go over a Street Fighter Alpha's Dan Hibiki, who was banned because of an intentional inconsistency that occurred whenever you would trigger a Shoryuken, as with Akuma,Ryu and Ken they all get invincibility during the move, but Dan's invincibility only happens 1/7 of the time
I knew about Alpha 2 Dan having inconsistent specials, but never heard of him being banned. Is this true or did just no one use him?
@@bunnybreaker I do believe he's banned but due to the Alpha series not having nearly as big of a competitive scene, it's hard for me to determine whether it was local exclusive or banned at bigger tournaments.
Why would you ban a character that is bad? The point is to ban a character if they are too good.
That doesn't sound banworthy at all. Are you sure he's banned? And not just...."You don't see people playing him, because he sucks."
6:00 Here to make an addendum on this. Hilde was not "quickly banned from most tournaments". That only started to happen late into the game's competitive history (excluding the local level, that was a toss-up). The reason for this was that there was counterplay beyond blocking anything she does. The problem was that the counterplay was very high-stakes, and if you mess up once you run the risk of losing the round. Not a lot of players could handle the pressure (not meaning to slight anyone, just difficult to play flawless games when you're against humans), and it was eventually agreed upon for Hilde to be universally banned.
A reason characters get banned that you forgot to mention is that sometimes, there's a glitch that causes inconsistencies or even game breaking issues. I recall a few instances of "low tier" Street Fighter characters being banned for this reason
It's so funny seeing the absolute unit that is Akuma, and the supremely overpowered Andriod 21 next to _minecraft steve._
The only thing funnier would be if he was the most broken and was the only one out of the three that was actually banne-
Hitstun negation is a bitch right?
I think Steve’s issue is that his Skill Ceiling is FAR higher than any other character in the game. I have seen some actual insane bullcrap that Steve can pull off on Twitter.
It only when the PLAYER reaches those high ceilings that Steve becomes a problem.
@@FrostGlader Most players in Ultimate's competitive scene recognize that Steve is unarguably the strongest character in the game, but that wasn't why he started getting banned. What got him banned was the discovery of an exploit in his unique block-creating mechanic.
Without getting into the technical nitty-gritty of it, Steve could basically force the game to cause him to attempt to place a block without actually getting the block to appear, and he could do this even during hitstun. This could happen in a single frame and instantly reset Steve back to a fully-actionable neutral position. This meant that Steve could effectively cancel his OWN hitstun even after he had been hit, escaping and interrupting what should have been true combos and otherwise turning anything but the fastest of moves from any opponent into a "unsafe on hit" state.
People argued that they shouldn't ban the character and only ban that exploit (similarly to how Ice Climber's Wobbling and Meta Knight's Infinite Dimensional Cape were banned), but the problem with Steve's tech is that was mostly invisible. It's very obvious when you're getting Wobbled for instance, but with Steve how do we know he actually used the tech to escape the combo or if you just happened to be off by a frame or two in your combo's execution and gave Steve a natural window to escape?
In the end the decision was to ban the character because attempting a ban on just the technique itself would be nearly impossible to effectively police.
@@reperfan4ah yes without the nitty gritty. Well done
@@wattboat I think getting the description of the tech and it's impact on the meta down to just three sentences was pretty concise. Do you WANT me to get into the full technical details behind how Steve's PMLG tech functioned on a mechanical level?
would love to see more tournaments with ONLY banned characters😂😂. who is the best OP player
oni from sf 4 Xd
a tournament with only pichu, bowser and kirby on pokefloats would be hillarious
Then go play that sailor moon fighting game for snes lol
I was part of the TO committee that banned Brawl MK for the US. It was called the Unity Ruleset Committe, and it was made up of about 15-20 of the main TOs in the USA. The main reason the ban lost traction because the Apex series (at the time the largest Smash tourney in the world), refused to go along with the ban because they frequently had Japanese players fly in for the event, and in Japan a ban decision had not been reached yet. That situation caused the rift of some MK Legal/Some MK Banned events because the main argument for legality was to be able to practice for what was Smash's EVO at the time.
Also, Pokémon Unite had Zacian as a really broken Pokémon that ripped through the game.
And they we’re also talking about banning Kazuya in Smash Bros too
Appreciate the variety of games included. Well done mate.
The point of not being able to train against console exclusive characters is also true for DLC characters since you need to buy the character to even train against them, yet we don't seem to ever argue that. We should, though.
A part of me wonders why they can’t have the characters available in training mode; And even remove the ability to set 2nd player as controller to prevent training mode 1v1s if they feel it’s necessary
But I suppose it would take a lot of effort and potentially decrease sales
Yeah DLC was always at least a bit cancerous to games
Thankfully these aren’t as malignant as the freemium game but it’s definitely in need of some chemo
I think SF6 does it better, since you can get them all for free if you grind enough
This applies to any competitive games or games with competitive scenes. There will inevitably be banned characters/weapons/whatever because games aren't balanced for competitive play entirely so you have things that will absolutely be broken and OP in the hands of skilled players and ruin the competition.
I remember fighting against lab coat 21 online. She straight up made me stop playing dbfz
Soul Calibur 4's Hilde wasn't banned quickly. Infact, she's the reason Soul Calibur 4s competitive scene died out.
People wanted her banned early on, however they didn't. This caused the scene to die off, and when she was finally banned most the hype around the game was over, so it killed off the game.
I would also like to mention another reason, through I do not know if I am just misunderstanding or I just felt is important and obvious. If a character has game breaking glitches, it can probably be banned, or at least the glitch, the only example that comes to my mind is box art mega man who had an infinite jump glitch that allowed him to win through time out.
Ice Climbers have a different form of the "wobbling" technique that leads to the opponent getting stuck in the "throw" animation. If they land it, the opponent can't do anything and so the Ice Climbers win by default through time-out.
I thought they were going to cover this since Steve Minecraft is on the thumbnail, but they didn't say shit about him
@@alexanderpape7024they mentioned him
Icies’ freeze glitch in Melee, Meta Knight’s Infinite Dimensional Cape glitch in Brawl.
@@jico5147barely a mention
Steve being banned is wild because characters in past games like Meta Knight or Bayonetta were WAYYYYY worse to fight than steve.
Let’s meta knight was popular to bad especially with TO’s but due to top players and Japan the game was held hostage
Bayo was never banned because smash 4 was the first game with patches so people were really unwilling to actually do anything in case everything changed and when it erupted we got smother metaknight situation
Smash fans will see a character be top 1 and not much else and ask for them to be banned
"It just feels right" then mentioning Meta Knight (could exploit a bug to go invisible indefinitely in Brawl - sometimes accidentally) and Bayonetta (had a 0-death off a very easy confirm).
Lab Coat 21 was the best character in the game by a long shot even without considering the move that got her banned
Thanks for the vid
Some extra information on why labcoat 21 was banned in dbfz besides her high use rate was the way the mechanics also changed in dbfz. Yes she could combo into the move that took 21% of your characters damage away permanently, but what wasn't mentioned in the video was you didn't even need to get a hit with her to do it anymore. The way dbfz "tags" use to work is in order to switch out your character for one of the other 2 on your team, you use to either have to do a combo, and then use supers to put them in costing meter. OR you could hold the assist button and swap them in during neutral. This is obviously risky because if the opponent reacts in time, it's a free combo.
The way DBFZ made labcoat 21 even more over powered was they changed how the tag system worked. Instead of having to use meter to use supers after a combo, or take a risk to swap them in, if you start a combo with any character, you can swap in another character mid combo for free and then continue the combo. So instead of relying on playing with labcoat as a starting character where she could lose in neutral and die, why not put her last on your team and if either of your other 2 characters starts a combo, just tag her in for the free damage nerf move? There was no avoiding it anymore, there was no counter play possibilities at all. If you got hit, they are going to get the necessary meter, tag her in, then take your damage.
TLDR: she could use the move to take your damage away, but the game core system was changed to allow any of your characters to start a combo, tag her in, continue the combo, and take your damage for free.
Damn that’s insane
Just out of curiosity, are you guys gonna cover the current state of Overwatch and the esports scene or will you wait till the tension has gone down a bit?
RIP Overwatch. How the mighty have fallen...
@@CoronaMage as someone who preorder overwatch, i never regret that decision. It was amazing, bunch of us are trying to figure out to best strategy and composition. Until blizzard decide to add character who ruin composition.
More like Overwoke.
@@icedacream Does it cost microtransactions to talk about Overwatch now? Am I going to be sent a bill for asking these questions?
what happened? im genuinely curious
I fought in a Soul Calibur 2 tournament many years ago, and luckily the console exclusive characters weren't much of a threat . It pretty much came down to me as a Nightmare player, Killik, Yunsung and finally Maxi making it to the finals. I made 3rd with Nightmare!😊
Nice video, very interesting.
5:30 is that silhouette supposed to be funky Kong lol
the thing about smash is that unlike some of the others, Nintendo couldnt care less about even the newer smash games. they've wiped their hands clean of it, and they will likely never patch it ever again, just as they did with smash 4.
What's interesting was IIRC, Yoda and Vader eventually became DLC for the other version, and in SCIIHD, both Heihachi and Spawn were available regardless of console, so even by that point, exclusives were being phased out
A fun thing to add onto the SCII discussion is. If I'm remembering right....
While this is unofficial. And will NEVER see the light of day at a big tourney. There's a modded version that has all 3 exclusives. And if I recall, it can be played online.
SCII had several others who weren't in the arcade version either including Sophitia, Seong Mi-Na, and a few others.
I think all characters in fighting games should be so insanely overpowered that they are all banned and you can’t play anyone in tournaments lol
TBF, the main difference between Steve and MK and Bayo is Steve isn't just because he's strong.
It's also because he sometimes just doesn't take hitstun, allowing him to effortlessly counterattack.
More accurately has a relatively easy exploit in phantom MLG that will essentially put him into the block animation that will immediately interrupt the hitstun frames thus immediately letting him either attack or air dodge and reverse the situation into his favour
Though even then he probably would t have been banned so quickly if not for what happened when they let bayo stick around a bit to long
They thought it better to nip it in the butt before too many people maines him or else you would get protests from players like what happened with metaknight when Japan and all the top players in a region threatened to boycott a tournament that suggested it
@@icedacreamTBF most Steve tech is performed by exploiting his mechanics. Mainly blocks.
@@icedacream have you ever gone to a smash tournament and gone at least 2-2
you are referring to that PLMG? that is literally impossible to do consistantly? the one that no Steve uses/used in a pro match? yeah so crazy
its just cause his kit is overtuned, personally I dont even think hes the best character in the game (pyra wins that) and feel that the players calling for his bann just need to get good cause hes more than beatable
Good video 👍🏻
I am by no means a competitive player at MK11. But I really REALLY hated coming up against someone playing Sheeva before dhe got nerfed. That stomp move... The player just spammed that and it was not fun. There were ways to counter it with some characters, but they were never really guaranteed to work. Basicaly, you needed to focus on a counter all the time while the other player was just spamming down up...
I thought Mvc3's Vergil would apear on the video, a lot of people talk about how broken he is, but as an outsider i don't really understand why that is
Look up UMVC3 is broken
Basically he has godlike mix and godlike neutral. Also the second easiest character to TOD with. He has TWO crazy good install supers and if you have X factor and Vergil you can easily mount a comeback against anyone. I don't think he's ever been banned, though. Marvel's powerlevel is crazy high and what makes him broken is how good he is at abusing x factor.
It's generally pretty uncommon for characters in fighting games to get banned. You gotta be a real egregious outlier to get hit with a character ban, especially in games that came out 10+ year ago. Vergil is incredibly good in UMVC3, but as far as I know he was never hit with a ban. At least not one that was widespread in the scene. There are shells in that game that are incredibly powerful even without him (like Morrigan and Dr Doom, Dante and Zero, building around Dark Phoenix etc), and I think for that reason he never got banned.
As for why he's fucked up, he's usually placed as the anchor on most teams because his ability to use meter is insanely good. He has 2 different install supers that can be applied at the same time (Devil Trigger and Spiral Swords), which coupled with his already incredible normals, a glitch that allows him to keep the charge for Round Trip during forward movement, *and* X Factor Level 3 (which he gets if he activates X Factor when he's the last surviving member of the team) just turns him into an insane mixup monster that also melts your health bar the second he touches you.
Probably has something to do with the fact that every top tier in that game is broken
Vergil is indeed broken as hell but frankly all the top tiers in that game were as well and Vergil isn't even usually considered the best, people think characters like Zero and Morrigan are stronger. In Marvel 2 there's literally a term, the "Four Gods," referring to the four characters (Storm, Sentinel, Magneto, Cable) who were head and shoulders above the rest of the cast and basically every player used at least one of them so Marvel players are just used to the brokenness.
You know something funny that Even if they nerfed or banned characters there are still people that have practice on other characters to learn something that can make em do some cheesesteak move or something like that but I am curious on two things!
1: are there possibility they can do a tournament on playing only banned characters?
2: are there any Banned Players that can’t participate because how good or cheesey they are on fighting games~?
As kids in the 80s, we banned San Francisco from Tecmo Bowl, because we found SF’s Pass 3 to be un-defendable if you threw the button hook.
I understand why you omitted MK from the power level banning section of the video. That would need its own whole ass video. Maybe a video for each one. A whole UA-cam channel just to post them. Sounds kinda familiar, actually...
I love the thumbnail. Android 21, Akuma, and the most terrifying of all…
STEVE
The part where you talked about Pet Shop is actually the other way around, he wasn't banned because he could fly and therefore not be hit by low attacks, but rather because of his UB setups.
Steve from tekken 5 had an infinite combo which guaranteed rounds and also jin had one in tekken 4 where the final was just two jins spamming the move
A lot of times characters are strong or overpowered on purpose in an effort to get people to like the character or because they are the newest character. Yun, Yang, Luke in SF5, Lab coat 21 just to name a few. It's strangely common believe it or not
Like the character? Feel more like drive sales lol, can't say for sure of course but when a character is broken good people tend to hate it way more than like it
@@EroilThe majority of players will buy and use the new strong character even if they have an ethical dilemma over it. Regardless of if they “like” them, they are a key to easy wins, and players love easy wins.
@@Watermelon_Man yeah exactly my point
Water is wet
People would have liked 21 even if she sucked.
this is why even though i can enjoy watching tournaments, its depressing how tournaments and vs in general ruin characters.
You CANNOT just flashed Virgil for two seconds. Do you have any idea how much pain that guy put me through?
I, to this day, don’t know what the devs were thinking with Labcoat Android 21. How did they think a move giving a permanent buff to your character and rebuff to the enemy’s would be fun and balanced
I left smash in 2012, but still have some knowledge of the characters.
Metaknight had infinite cape glitch, could fly practically forever or recover from just about anywhere, basically no counters if you knew how to get in and could stall the game out indefinitely.
IceClimbers had infinite grab to death, so one grab equals one stock.
Bayonetta in smash 4 had NO I repeat NO counters!
For Steve from minecraft in ultimate basically he could make a platform anywhere.... like that's literally broken I know it's his mechanic and all from his game but it's like being able to build a stage while playing you're master hand you're god while playing. I've seen games where the dude is almost dead falling back and then he makes a platform and gets his second jump back. I mean watching it in itself is frustrating.
The problem with broken or unbalanced characters is that everyone just picks them and the game becomes boring and stale. It reduces variety and promotes singularity.
Wobbling couldn’t even bring Icies to high tier status when it was legal, because their movement and range are pretty bad. While one grab = one stock is very frustrating, there is plenty of counterplay to it, even if it’s out of their comfort zone. Wobbling on a much faster character like Marth or Captain Falcon would be FAR more devastating to the meta.
Bayonetta didn’t have NO counters… just a select few. For example, Pikachu arguably became a better character in Smash 4’s meta after Bayo launched since he was one of the few who had a good matchup against her. Bayo snapped the game in two, but she wasn’t unbeatable, and because of that she never banned.
And that’s… not what makes Steve broken. Steve is unquestionably the best character in the game due to a variety of factors, but what pushed him over banworthy is a specific tech that, for a bit of a simplification, basically makes him immune to hitstun, effectively making Steve almost untouchable beyond a very small selection of super fast moves (that not every character might even have access to). And don’t even think about trying to killing him.
You are right about what happens when overpowered and broken characters are let loose into the meta: they overcentralize the game, where the only effective strategy to beat them is to just use that character.
@fedorakirby2250 thanks for the reply and update. While I still do occasionally watch smash I cannot play because I became photosensitive to the red electricity that is in ultimate. I left due to research and the lack of the community growing. Research is almost done so I'm not trying to rush it. If anything else please let me know or inform me. I honestly did not know about the hitstun thing going on lol.
@@EmeraldEdge72 You could try mods out that remove the red lightning, maybe replace it with a different color or effect.
@@tumultoustortelliniThe bad thing is. Mods can get you banned from online play if I recall correctly.
Which is a shame. Having some kind of option to turn those flashy effects off in the first place could have prevented these issues....
Seriously, Smash Ultimate is a mess in SO many ways....
@@DataDrain02 Certain mods can, I don't know if this does or not. I wasn't even really thinking about online honestly.
I never really heard of people being photosensitive to the red lightning in killscreens until @EmeraldEdge72's comment so I don't blame nintendo. I can see why romeone would though.
I agree on some elements being a mess. Terrible online, stopping patches way too early, or on the qol side, not making stage playlists, turning off specific hazards (though this one might be expecting too much since it was their first time making the feature), stopping replays is the most poorly designed thing in this game honestly.
This is the most ignorant comment section I've ever seen. 💀
If you sort by new, almost every comment is saying shit like "bro they just need to get good" or "competitive players are crybabies". Bro that's like going to a Basketball game and complaining about the foul system 💀, like wtf
People just don’t like getting called out for using OP characters lol
That’s what it’s like on a lot of akshon’s videos
Sorting by new on their video about melee’s stages being banned will give you a shit ton of “bEcAuSe sMaSh pLaYeRs hAtE fUn”
My thing is who determines what's to strong??? It's in the game but then some random people decide you can't use that character that's literally in the game? Console exclusive characters make sense cause not everyone has access but "too strong"??? What determines that
It's dependent on the game, and decided by the majority of the competitive community. In a game like Soul Caliber, having a character that can get a KO off of any combo, is too strong. For a game like Smash Bros, a character being able to easily get an infinite combo, is too strong. In Heritage To The Future, having a small, flying character, that can evade the majority of attacks with ease, is too strong. A character is usually deemed "too strong" when they have something game changing or something strong, that no other character has, or just when they have something that lets them win too easy.
I would say that in 90 percent of cases, a ban is necessary, for someone like Steve form ssbu, it is because while he’s not only one of if not the strongest character, he also has tech that literally makes fighting him unfair if the person knows how to and at a high level people will use and abuse it
I used to play a lot of Tekken 7 but I really lost respect for the devs for allowing SEVERAL OP characters during it's lifespan. Akuma and Geese were bad but I learned to live with them. Leroy and Faku was the last straw. Especially when Leroy was released, the competitive scene was sooooo unwatchable with everyone and their grandma using the character. Harada has always had his favorites and he also likes putting in intentionally low-tier joke characters. But what happened made me think that he really doesn't care about balance at all.
Akuma and geese having a 10f launcher is really stupid, still. Leroy fahk and lidia all got essebtialy fixed and actually seemingly punished for their own strengths but akuma is still high crushing and 10f punishing everyone to death
I feel like DLC characters being OP is the exact same reason that almost every new League of Legends champion is completely broken when they are first released. They want people to buy them because they're OP.
@@xenteko7249 My thoughts exactly, minus the league of legends comparison. The developers know that people who suck at fighting games will pay more to cheese wins, especially newer players who don't have the fundamentals to deal with playing an honest character.
It's a hard balance to strike though, because if the developers make the character too good then we run into a Leroy situation, but if they make a character too bad then we end up with a Jiren or a Banjo Kazooie situation. People will ask, "why pay money for a character who isn't even as good as base-game roster characters?" so the developers have a hard call to make since their goal is to make money off their work.
Was the Characters that much stronger than other's. Or some players are much more Skilled than their Opponents ?
@@Frankford.Leroy and Fahk were THAT good yes
Negan isn't weird
He's Miguel with a bat
People sleep on Miguel cause his combos aren't fancy but he/Negan hit like a truck
Actualy negen is considerably more broken due to him needing to catch you laking once and its over
Dead or Alive in tournament competition, Alpha 152 she's the alter ego of Kasumi and downright very OP and cheap, you can finish your opponent in one infinite combo setting. She was outright banned from tournament competition due to unfairness across all circumstances.
Since Alpha 152 from DoA wasn't mentioned I just mentioned it.
3:21 Does mewtwo really fall in this category when you need to unlock like half of melee characters?
Also shoutouts to khryke lol
The dude yelling at Sonic fox for playing op characters is beautiful. Dude's so overrated, it's insane.
The real problem with op characters is that players are insecure and desperate enough to do anything for the win. It's embarrassing.
You guys use labcoat 21 cus she's good? I use her cus she looks good
Steve was broken since launch, but got banned once people found a tech. I forgot what the tech was, but steve got banned everywhere so it had to be busted
spawn was so sick in soul caliber 2. I never played in any SC tournaments but SC2 was so much fun.
Eddie Tekken 3 is banned in our household lol
Back when I was young all I did was pick Eddy and push circle lmao
Why you gotta keep showing Jamie clips in this vid? Don't do my guy dirty like that he's far from broken lol
“He’s a flying bird! He prefers the air”
it never gets old
Way back in the day, the first Fatal Fury Special was huge. I ended up winning for 4 hours straight on 1 credit, until finally everyone gave up. Geese Howard has a counter move that made him hard as hell to beat on Fatal Fury 1 on higher difficulty levels. Fatal Fury Special was the first time Geese was playable and they made his counter move too easy. Later games where he appeared they made the move much harder to pull off and eventually Geese disappeared from the lineup on later Fatal Fury games like King of Fighters.
Lab Coat 21 was BROKEN. Incredibly fast grab super (almost unreactable online and still hard offline) that can be used in strings, already mentioned 21% buff to herself and PERMANENT nerf to enemy. No matter if she died or you switched.
Even without that she was busted. Long blockstrings, many mixup options, projectiles, traversal options, her spin attack vacuums enemies (and can hit from behind her lmao) AND she has a DP too if I recall right. Even after the nerfs she's annoying as fuck to play against. I think someone made an analysis of her pro fights, and average match went from about 2 minutes in length to 4 minutes when 21 was on either team due to players having to play more passively and defensively or risk getting snowballed.
There needs to be a banned character tournament. ONLY Banned characters can be used. So if everyone has them, then no one has an edge lol
kusoge tournaments exist. hakuto no ken has abunch of op characters and the matches are just long combo haven
6:30 I guess that reference FLEW over everyones heads 🤭
The only ban newer games can expect is when a big tourney is soon right after a new character gets released but it's also not guaranteed to get banned.
Wasn’t Steve banned in smash comp because people complained about it???
the community is still basically 50/50 on the issue and there are regions where he's banned and regions where he's not (although he's not banned in most places, especially outside the US). it's a lot more complicated than most of the characters in this video since steve doesn't really have anything 'game-breaking' as much as he just has VERY good neutral tools and endless ways to escape disadvantage, arguably one of the best combo games of any character, and extremely high damage output off of relatively simple strings-there was a tech discovered that lets him kinda cheat by acting out of hitstun way earlier than he should be able to, but as far as anyone knows it has yet to be used in any major tournament set and doesn't seem to be as practical as it seemed at first
@owlbound_ then is it pros that get upset because of how someone needs to play him than?
@@musebound I think the reason it hasn't been used in tournament play is because most folks are actively choosing not to learn it due to how controversial it is. No point in trying to get the muscle memory for it down if it's likely to get banned anyways.
@@LloydTheZephyrian That and it's extremely hard for a human to do, let alone consistently. The smash community assumes that all Steve players are robots. (I get that Steve players being human is a controversial concept but cmon)
@@EmperorPenguin1217 its also near impossible to notice it even happened. It's really hard to see if the bug happened or not, meaning if people got good at doing it consistently, umpires would not have an easy time seeing that a banned exploit was used.
Most of the B-roll in the beginning weren't even ppl salty over an OP character that were ban worthy. It's just pure unrefined salt. Especially any clip that involves LTG
one was reasonable though since it was SF5 shitty rollback screwing them.
@MokonaModokiES Yeah, that kinda proves bro’s point. Mike was salty because of the bad netcode not cuz Birdie is broken. I was also thinking the clip choices made no sense if you consider them in context except the one smash clip with bayonetta killing the kid off the top because that character actually was broken.
Bro used footage of melee mewtwo when talking about OP boss characters lol, most of the B-roll was completely random.
When Leroy came out I was playing with some dude my ex was talking to I learned a few parrys and like one combo he was no the same after that set 😅
@Ryzingsol out here with the cameo
I’m glad we can all agree that Smash is a FIGHTING game.
i will consider if you take a shower
I don't get it, look at the original pitch document of Sakurai and it's called a fighting game, the party elements came on top of it later
Dont care what you call it, to me its an "Platform fighter".
Part of the fgc, but way to different to all others to be compared. Its a subgenre.
I’m a competitive smash player and this shit is a party game lmao, you accept all the corny bs that happens once you accept it’s party game status
@@jaxby9156 It's a fighting game thats a party game
What a misinformed video. "Banning" is uncommon in fighting games. It happens frequently in the Smash community, but that's a separate issue altogether because here we're talking about fighting games as played by FGC. FGC historically avoids banning characters as much as possible UNLESS A) certain characters are just not meant to be accessed normally like Akuma in SF2 B) certain characters are walled behind console exclusivity like Kratos in MK9 or C) certain characters have a game-breaking bug, like in Season 4 of SFV Blanka was very briefly banned in some small tournaments because he had the glitch to freeze the game. (Majors only banned the act of the glitch itself. The character was free to be picked still) The only case where these didn't apply was Android 21 because it's true that she was extremely overtuned, but she was only banned for 1 circuit-official tournament. As busted as Leroy and Fahk were, they were never banned. Yun and Yang were extremely overpowered in SF4, but they were never banned. FGC traditionally believes in "Hate the game, not the player" mentality. If a player wants to pick an overpowered character because they want to win that badly, it's their freedom. TOs don't warrant a power to interfere with their decision. It's the game developer's fault that they failed to balance their game, it has nothing to do with how the players want to play the game, is the basic philosophy of the FGC. A lot of it comes from the fact that fighting games tend to focus on the mastery of the character. If a third party "bans" your favorite character - the character that you associate yourself the most with - is like taking a part of your identity away, and FGC never took that to their liking.
Also you can tell whoever wrote the script for this video doesn't really play fighting games lol
"This character was so good because he had good frame data" Yeah let's just throw around some buzzwords. Like yeah ok we can totally tell you're an expert.
Smash has never actually banned any characters. Steve is the first time any smash character has been banned but not even because he's not banned in most places, just some areas in the states
Yeah, this is mucho texto to complain about something that isn't even true. Some Brawl tournaments banned Meta Knight for some time because he really is THAT much better than the entire rest of the cast, but even he didn't stay banned for long at all. There were SOME talks to ban Bayonetta in Smash 4 because she had pretty much swallowed the entire game by the end of its lifespan, but by then, apathy towards Smash 4 was so large no one even bothered. Funnily enough, the only character to actually get de-facto banned was Steve, and for one of the reasons you listed that would entail a justified ban: he's a glitched character that just plays by his own rules.
You complain about the person in the video not knowing what he's talking about yet you wrote this.
Not sure if you even tried googling why meta knight was banned in brawl but it was for the flight ability up B mixed with his glide and also his crazy speed if I remember right
There are too many things you can bring up that make Meta Knight in a league of his own, but the main sticking points were:
- Tornado
-Shuttle was a move that had invincibillity frames when grounded, can be cancelled into any other move (including flight) and could knock out at average percentages. The move was too versatile for its own good.
- Extremely fast button that could be spammed and was hard to challenge (I believe it was 2 frames of startup?)
- Flight allowed him to camp outside of the stage and either time-out the opponent or force them to approach in a risky manner. Being airborne for most of the match also meant that he was never in risk of tripping, which the rest of the cast didn't have the luxury of.
@@leithaziz2716 Up air was the 2-frame move, and he could do it like 3 times in one short hop.
@@leithaziz2716 thank you for this, i didnt wanna go into details but not all heroes where capes
@@leithaziz2716 Another thing about tornado, it had so much priority that some other characters' entire movesets couldn't contest it.
Hokuto No Ken from ArcSystem Works has entered the chat and would like a word with you 😂
that steve clip was kinda cool
Darth Vader and Yoda were both able to be obtained on the same console. I had em both on 360. So banning them was highly stupid. Hell Vader was my main
When MK11 devs allowed custom variation in ranked, Jacquie was banner for a time in tourneys
Nice video, but a lot of the footage used was completely unrelated to what you were talking about, which might give people the wrong idea about what you showed.
"One one person chose not to run 21"
That man went on to win EVO
Some misinformation on the AC+ part... Using ACPR footage instead of AC, lmao
Also thanks for using my footage :)
The thing with the boss characters is like if giga bowser was allowed in Melee.
Akuma is basically Ryu and Ken on steroids caught me off guard
This is why I love mk1. I feel like they put so much thought into it and made ways to prevent spammers from getting their ways. I also feel like it doesn't matter what character you pick, you just need to learn them and learn how to block against other characters while learning kombos that aren't hard to do, the input system they have going on is great. I'm enjoying this fighting game as it allows more fairness to the game than any other fighting game.
Great video
The fact Vergil and Zero haven't been banned in UMvC3 baffles me.
Prefers the air, Flaco reference huh
Steve being able to just walk out of combos is just so stupid. Crazy how all the Steve players all started to appear right after the final update