I'm gonna learn the beethoven sonatas (or at least my favourite ones) because of your work, Wim. It strikes me as possible I can at least play them in whole beat (even if they're not the most musical) which i would never have thought based on the recordings we have. I would've avoided like the plague, but your recordings of these have allowed a really great beauty to surface that i can be a part of in a minor way. Thabk you.
It adds a certain a free improvisational feel to it. Fascinating. Though I wonder how long the slow movement of the Hammerklavier would last if subject to a similar process.
When you use this grave tempo, it is more contemplative, because you are not immediately worrying about the next note, but just glorying in the chord you have set up in a state of being. Singers do this sometimes when they are trying to bring vitality to a slow passage by living in the phoneme that they are in and not worrying about what the next one may bring. It is the difference between being and doing.
@@palladin331 humans have an internal sense that grasps things in twos and threes. Here the moment is presented as singular before another is presented in order to make you focus on it before immediately trying to find a rhythm.
@@palladin331 what you say is uncontroversial, but i was speaking of the effect on non counting intelligences in the audience and how they would respond. it is based in human perception and how Beethoven plays on the audience when he writes. He was not writing for a theoretical vacuum, but to move persons so they would feel the sublimity of what he has conveying. I think that the slower rhythm works with the tension in the piece. I have tried the fermata thing, and i agree that you must live in time or you may become disjoined.
I've never played the piano in my life. But I find your passion for - and knowledge of - your subject matter so engaging that I have watched this and others of your videos despite limited knowledge of the subject matter (I just like the music). Kudos, sir.
I am no musician, I don't play the piano. But I'm using what I can do to listen to his sonatas, in a "sketch/blueprint" form... I'll just say: It's like meeting the real man behind the legend, sometimes baffling, often underwhelming, and often finding whole new reasons for deep admiration. Thank you so much, Mr. Winters, it's rare to find musical wisdom paired with common sense, but you have it. Oh, this video is exactly one year old... Happy birthday!
Hi Wim, I was just re-watching this video after reading Schindler's third edition of Beethoven As I Knew Him, published in 1860 (the English translation of that edition done by Constance Jolly and edited by Donald McArdle). In the Musical Section beginning on page 395, Schindler states, "Other art forms, especially instrumental music, have undergone a revolution, as over four decades technical virtuosity has achieved total domination of the piano and the strings. This emphasis on mechanics has annihilated almost every trace of the spiritual element in music." He goes on to say, "Not only the spirit of the music, but the form as well have been destroyed by excessive mechanical brilliance." He then proceeds to excoriate the virtuosi of his time, from Czerny to Clara Schumann, for the destruction of the spirit of Beethoven's music through the adoption of excessive tempi. McArdle says of Schindler (note 319, page 446 of the paperback edition), "As one who studied many - or most, or all - of the piano sonatas under Beethoven himself, Schindler must be considered as perhaps the most authentic source of the Beethoven tradition. This fact should be born in mind in evaluating the comments on interpretation that make up much of this Musical Section." I hope you find this useful. I can't wait for THE BOOK!
Watched this again! Still hoping it won't be long before I hear it in WB!!! For what it's worth, I would love to hear you play it in a sizable reverberant stone church or reverberant music hall. oh, to hear those notes float in space as they move around - that would express a lot of what this piece does to my soul. The total PATHOS when mixed with haunting fading echoes - that is just rapturous! I've lived the highs and lows - Beethoven knows my life. The Adagio dislike warm maple syrup or maybe expensive Port. Please don't make the world wait much longer!
Thanks Wim- this issue has been a bit of a closed book to me, but your clarity and involvement and exampling help one to see so many possibilities in this , surely some of the greatest music ever ! Brilliant ! Thank you .
You know Wim I find that listening a lot to period instruments is a whole new world of music- I really do prefer the sound of them to modern instruments. There is so much more depth of tone and variety of moods!
Well, in a way you could say, that if you take away the still so much present idea that evolution is always for the better, you could say that it should not surprise that the instruments for which the old masters wrote their music, works so well for... that music !
Those first few chords were fantastic! What more compelling evidence does anyone need than to hear the music played this way? For me it does not matter what people may have said or thought in the past or what convention says is right if the music does not say it too. I have no doubt this is right and can't wait to hear the whole piece
It was always my instinct to play it (although without the technical weight of numbers) very near the double slow tempo (…it is far more dramatic and speaks of the word “grave” much more clearly than the haste of speed) It always seemed to me our age has been hurried and stressed (a sort of mind control to keep people from stopping to think perhaps) by some sort of over all fears which has in effect replaced many healthy traditions such as our very way of eating toward a rush rush push push fast food run towards hard arteries and heart attacks… The famous (and amazing) performance by Glen Gould with Leonard Bernstein at Carnegie Hall of The Brahms D minor, Op 15 where Gould insists on very slow tempos… It’s almost amusing to note the critics tore into Gould for doing this supposing the slower temps were a result of some sort of inability on Gould’s part ; when in fact it is usually rather more difficult to maintain a very slow tempo than a fast one….
The slower tempo just makes more sense in this case. I’m following your videos with much interest - I can’t say with any confidence that, historically speaking, you are correct or not; for that, I would have to engage with the literature far more than I have the time for. But aesthetically, it just chimes with me more. It just feels more “correct”. It would be great to hear the whole piece in the slower tempo.
I only listened to you playing the beginning, without the talking before and have to admit it convinces me and opens a new world of drama for the beginning. Worth considering.
That is great to read from you Jan ! I'll try the complete grave soon, Czerny in his opus 500 is the slowest of all, he accelerated later to about 60, I'll be giving both versions after each other to compare.
I am looking forward to it. Btw whilst listening I thought fp would be an advantage, although cc is always music of silence for me, so it fits perfectly here. In your examples I'd also like to hear the transition to the Allegro - if possible.
I was at Lorenz Gadients place this weekend, and played on his Frenzl ca 1820 pf, beautiful instrument, but indeed, as you say, the cc has not only disadvantages for building tension etc. The allegro section of the pathetique is a story on its own... I'll try to give a glimpse though
Thanks for telling us so many books and materials about play keyboard instrument. I find Czerny op.500 from Imslp, but I don't understand + fingering's mean after I read? So, what finger I could used when + show up? Thank you very very much again ^_^
schindler / Czerny tempo makes perfect musical sense of the grave opening. But what does it do if the contrasting faster tempo is slwed down to match??
One point, and I don't want to sound insulting to Beethoven, is the detail that Schindler was close to Beethoven at a later part of Beethoven's life, when the Maestro's hearing was bad and eventually completely gone. I wonder if that detail played any role in how Beethoven played this sonata in Schindler's presence. Perhaps Beethoven feeling the vibrations through his fingertips, rather than hearing the sound. Does Schindler say in his book that Beethoven verbally told him that the opening chord should completely fade, or does he say that this is how he heard the Maestro play this piece? Also, does Czerny say that Beethoven signed off on the metronome markings that Czerny wrote in his book? I know that Beethoven trusted Czerny probably more than any other interpreter, so what Czerny says caries a lot of weight. But I still wonder how much Czerny consulted Beethoven for every piano sonata the Czerny wrote about.
Sorry, but why didn´t they just time the entire pieces? Then we would be able to calculate exactly the recommended speed. So they could have indicated: This sand watch is 2/3 empty when the piece is over. I cannot belive no-one thought of this.
then you must be able to play all the historical mms which I can tell you're not. In a way it is simple as that, it is not about believe, but about facts!
What it revealed for me is also the fact that we don't enjoy or assume the silence in music...I am impressed by how we presumed everything was played due to a simple misunderstanding of the metronome use
Excellent lecture. So interesting. The ultra slow I've never heard that slow before. It makes the music sound more experimental and futuristic than I think Beethoven would have sanctioned. The issue of how slow to start the counting brings to my mind the opening tympani sounds at the beginning of Beethoven's beautiful violin concerto. How fast should they go? Open to many interpretations. My favorite version is Perlman with Giulini. The issue of tempi is rather new to me and I have really enjoyed what you have presented. Well done.
You could have a look at Haydn's D (Ré) major sonata Hob 16, particularly for the middle largo e sostenuto which, I think can be played in a similar way.
Hope this doesn’t get buried in your inbox. Where can I find Czerny’s book about the tempo about Beethoven pathetique? I looked up Czerny op 500 on IMSLP, I looked at part 3, after scrolling through it a few times it seems like exercises, and I could t find the Beethoven sonata
AuthenticSound thank! Appears harder to find than I thought, might take some time. Also a quick google search shows that there’s some controversy surrounding this particular Anton Schindler. This is going to be a great read tonight!
Thanks Mauro! That will happen soon enough, once my pianforte is ready! Here is a video from a while ago, I made some more recent ones too: ua-cam.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=QFwIltuPsRQ
This approach creates innumerable situations where it is impossible to properly taper ends of phrases with proper harmonic resolutions. The resolved note is way louder than the preceding dissonant chord at the point just prior to execution of the resolution. This is disastrous! Any explanation is better than this state of affairs.
How do the Czerny metronom markings relate to a alla breve movement like the first movement of the moonlight? I read that Czerny's is 60 to a quarter note. Would metrical time mean 30 to a quarter note? I am really confused here. I always tell my students that this piece should be played faster than it usually is because it is alla breve.
The C with a stroke is not an old fashioned alla breve any more end of 18th.c. This is one of the most common made mistakes (and understandable), to mix the 'real AB' with, what the French would be calling 'mésure a quatre temps vite', and even that is flattened out in the late 18th c, and certainly early 19th c. An AB, very shortly said, has only eight notes, one major harmony per bar (like e.g. bach's "Allabreve" written for organ, or the F major fugue of the big organ Toccata. Mozart's g minor symph n°40, Beethovens hammerklavier, first part, those are real AB's, so with a clear pulse every half. The other mvt are just 4/4, but perhaps slightly faster than a normal C. But even then. Even CPEBach has a letter asking Breitkopf at the latest moment to change the meter from C to the C with stroke, to make sure people would not take the tempo too slow. So both meters were in certain notations (so when fastest note value is faster than eight) exchangeable. Not that I know all of that, but once you start to see the difference, it is hard to mix the 'old' AB with the new meaning of that bar indicator. Some of Czerny tempi are really slow in metrical sense, Moscheles is a bit faster. But as said in this video, it is really hard to shift from one performance practice to the other, certainly in the slower movements. I'm going trough this so to say real time here with you, but one could "smell" there is another world behind those doors. The Moonlight is a sonata I'm so much looking forward to play that on my pianoforte. It is impossible on clavichord. Hope this adds something !
Aside from your double-beat argument, performance on the clavichord does the music no favors. Particularly, the lack of dynamic difference between the first FP (Beethoven's written indication) chord and the following notes.
HelloWim ! I think that Bach ( wich is referred to as a azkenasi jewish surname ) used the jewish Gematriot to compose his works.. using the Kabbala numerology ,. sometimes take the metronome numbers as an example of a hidden meaning ( like the 138, name of the Messiah ) ..and that Beethoven found out that or anyhow understood the values of this.. taking the metronome numbers here as you mentions here ,16 and 92 , in numerology gives 7 and 11 and their very significant hidden meanings.. . what is your opinion on that ?
Hi Pelle, personally, I believe this is a bit too far from practical reality. I do not think those musicians were up for mystification and were much embedded in the daily practice of every day life. So for me, the interpretation as since Mersenne (and before!) of the duration of one second as a two second period makes so much sense.
The disapearence of the sound and the silence that follows are very interesting.I guess our way of living ,squeezing time and rushing makes one feel a bit strange at the first contact with a way like this.But if you become objective .....it's really good.Something one should try.Generally playing things slower can show interesting aspects of the music.One can reflect about the contents of the music while playing and enjoying it in a different way than playing for an audience that has a certanin kind of expectation.
Wim have you heard Ronald Brautigam play this sonata on the fortepiano? He plays the beginning slow like you are talking about ( but not quite as slow as you did here) and the fortepiano resounds and sort of echoes- you can hear the strings reverberating in a way the modern piano does not.
this is related to the tuning of A=432 hz instead of 440 as stated for modern pianos. 432 in a well tuned multiple stringed instrument like pianos and guitars provide all harmonics available as a result of specific resonance due to this tuning . This can provide the performer healthier conditions .Kind regards from Barcelona, Spain
@@lluisbofarullros3223 why would it have been tuned to a=432? 430 or maybe even 435 world have more likely been more accurate. You don't get more harmonics automatically with a=432. All depends on how and what temperament you're using.
@@sofiadahlen1187 no, it comes before temperament according to Pythagoras`experiences with strings´length and frequencies obtained. In fact I would say that if stringed instruments are not tuned with A=432 and the rest of strings according to this not only the instrument is out of tune, but also the performer is
Hi Bryan, I will make a follow up video with the grave played completely, as an attempt to fully revisit the whole pathetique. I will definitely do that when the pianoforte is here, but it might be a project month on its own. It's not copy-paste, one need time to have that new idea and new approach settled
Dear Wim, this first measures should be played as a french overture, the dotted notes as double dotted, so a more pathetic effect will be noticed, similar the Bach C minor partita sinfonia, the WTC I fughe in D major...
@@AuthenticSound I tried to remember where but I could not, I think was in a piano masterclass, anyway, if you listen to Schiff masterclass he plays like so. As for Bachs, is really very different in character if you do not play them with this concept in mind. The D Major and C minor partitas first movements, the WTC D major fughe, the 16th variation of Goldberg's, ie... As CPE Bach says, its a matter of taste. You should try and compare, if you like how it sounds, that's what really matters.
Just found dear Wim... The video is long, but it worths to see. At 1:04:30 he starts talking about Lully's influence over composers. Have fun. ua-cam.com/video/N5PLWqHS_e4/v-deo.html
Thanks. Well, it matters if one seeks interest in trying at least to reconstruct elements. I'm not too convinced on the double dotting, but have no """"proof"""" for it either. I really like the C minor partita opening played as is, the character becomes so... different.
interesting person, though my heart stopped when he described CPEBach's book as an essay of playing the ... pianoforte... might just be a misser, but that is a huge one. But anyway, he has a nice way of talking and putting things in perspective! thanks for the link.
I do just wonder whether an academic like yourself who studies written scores in such depth can play these classical masterpieces purely for enjoyment. We can never really know how the composers wanted them played we can only analyse the written score and interpret what we believe he/ she wanted. I love Valentina Lisitsa’s performances and realise you are using her interpretations as just one example and of course many music lovers do not have your theoretical knowledge or understanding of the written scores but I do wonder if you can ever play or listen to these classical masterpieces without dissecting and analysing every bar.
I only feature Valentina because she is representing a system, as I could use many other pianists as an example, but she is on the frontrow of speed and makes it the more clearer to anyone. One thing we do know is their tempi, left in thousands of MMs
Just because an interpretation of a piece isn't historically correct or unorthodox doesn't mean it's not legitimate. At the end of the day, as long as it sound good, it's a justified way to play that piece.
Beethoven wants from us to sink in the silence with him... He knew, that the sound is the only way we can interpret the God, yet the real Voice of the God is the silence. He clearly have hearing the God more and more till he finally sink into, completely and restfully.
11 “Go out and stand on the mountain,” the Lord replied. “I want you to see me when I pass by.” All at once, a strong wind shook the mountain and shattered the rocks. But the Lord was not in the wind. Next, there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. 12 Then there was a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. Finally, there was a gentle breeze,[a] 13 and when Elijah heard it, he covered his face with his coat. He went out and stood at the entrance to the cave. The Lord[b] asked, “Elijah, why are you here?”
Many videos make that combination, sometimes the topic needs theoretical clarification as well. Just dive a bit through my 600+ videos and you'll find what you want!
I'm gonna learn the beethoven sonatas (or at least my favourite ones) because of your work, Wim. It strikes me as possible I can at least play them in whole beat (even if they're not the most musical) which i would never have thought based on the recordings we have. I would've avoided like the plague, but your recordings of these have allowed a really great beauty to surface that i can be a part of in a minor way.
Thabk you.
The slower tempo gives gravitas to the Grave. A revelation!
Thanks! Soon on my new pianoforte
the historical tempo isnt real
Play it for us all the way through at that tempo! It just went from Pathetique to Heart Wrenching!
I will, David, it is one of the videos for next month.
Oh i look forward to this!
Thank you Wim for fighting and standing for what is right. You are a pillar of strength because you believe in this correct cause. God Bless 😃❤️🙏🏼✅
It adds a certain a free improvisational feel to it. Fascinating. Though I wonder how long the slow movement of the Hammerklavier would last if subject to a similar process.
ua-cam.com/video/IFYdLxDcF90/v-deo.html
When you use this grave tempo, it is more contemplative, because you are not immediately worrying about the next note, but just glorying in the chord you have set up in a state of being. Singers do this sometimes when they are trying to bring vitality to a slow passage by living in the phoneme that they are in and not worrying about what the next one may bring. It is the difference between being and doing.
That is a great reflection, Christopher, the connection with singing, opera, cantabile, we definitely must make much more !
@@palladin331 humans have an internal sense that grasps things in twos and threes. Here the moment is presented as singular before another is presented in order to make you focus on it before immediately trying to find a rhythm.
@@palladin331 what you say is uncontroversial, but i was speaking of the effect on non counting intelligences in the audience and how they would respond. it is based in human perception and how Beethoven plays on the audience when he writes. He was not writing for a theoretical vacuum, but to move persons so they would feel the sublimity of what he has conveying. I think that the slower rhythm works with the tension in the piece. I have tried the fermata thing, and i agree that you must live in time or you may become disjoined.
I am not perfectly good at contemplative things: Brahms drives me nuts with his eternal time.
In trying to learn a piece,I end up practicing it with different tempos and even meters. Most variations sound equally great.
I've never played the piano in my life. But I find your passion for - and knowledge of - your subject matter so engaging that I have watched this and others of your videos despite limited knowledge of the subject matter (I just like the music). Kudos, sir.
I am no musician, I don't play the piano. But I'm using what I can do to listen to his sonatas, in a "sketch/blueprint" form... I'll just say: It's like meeting the real man behind the legend, sometimes baffling, often underwhelming, and often finding whole new reasons for deep admiration. Thank you so much, Mr. Winters, it's rare to find musical wisdom paired with common sense, but you have it.
Oh, this video is exactly one year old... Happy birthday!
Thank you
Hi Wim, I was just re-watching this video after reading Schindler's third edition of Beethoven As I Knew Him, published in 1860 (the English translation of that edition done by Constance Jolly and edited by Donald McArdle). In the Musical Section beginning on page 395, Schindler states, "Other art forms, especially instrumental music, have undergone a revolution, as over four decades technical virtuosity has achieved total domination of the piano and the strings. This emphasis on mechanics has annihilated almost every trace of the spiritual element in music." He goes on to say, "Not only the spirit of the music, but the form as well have been destroyed by excessive mechanical brilliance." He then proceeds to excoriate the virtuosi of his time, from Czerny to Clara Schumann, for the destruction of the spirit of Beethoven's music through the adoption of excessive tempi. McArdle says of Schindler (note 319, page 446 of the paperback edition), "As one who studied many - or most, or all - of the piano sonatas under Beethoven himself, Schindler must be considered as perhaps the most authentic source of the Beethoven tradition. This fact should be born in mind in evaluating the comments on interpretation that make up much of this Musical Section."
I hope you find this useful. I can't wait for THE BOOK!
Watched this again! Still hoping it won't be long before I hear it in WB!!! For what it's worth, I would love to hear you play it in a sizable reverberant stone church or reverberant music hall. oh, to hear those notes float in space as they move around - that would express a lot of what this piece does to my soul. The total PATHOS when mixed with haunting fading echoes - that is just rapturous! I've lived the highs and lows - Beethoven knows my life. The Adagio dislike warm maple syrup or maybe expensive Port. Please don't make the world wait much longer!
You play the very slow tempo so convincingly. It really does open up new possibilities. I am enjoying all of this so much!
Great to read!
Thanks Wim- this issue has been a bit of a closed book to me, but your clarity and involvement and exampling help one to see so many possibilities in this , surely some of the greatest music ever ! Brilliant ! Thank you .
Thanks Bil, if we just open our minds for new things, worlds can open that were unthinkable before !
You know Wim I find that listening a lot to period instruments is a whole new world of music- I really do prefer the sound of them to modern instruments. There is so much more depth of tone and variety of moods!
Well, in a way you could say, that if you take away the still so much present idea that evolution is always for the better, you could say that it should not surprise that the instruments for which the old masters wrote their music, works so well for... that music !
I do like the slower tempo for the grave it gives it much more tension
Those first few chords were fantastic! What more compelling evidence does anyone need than to hear the music played this way? For me it does not matter what people may have said or thought in the past or what convention says is right if the music does not say it too. I have no doubt this is right and can't wait to hear the whole piece
I'll try the complete grave soon !
The quicker tempo was okay, but the slower tempo moved my heart to tears! Amazing...
It was always my instinct to play it (although without the technical weight of numbers) very near the double slow tempo (…it is far more dramatic and speaks of the word “grave” much more clearly than the haste of speed) It always seemed to me our age has been hurried and stressed (a sort of mind control to keep people from stopping to think perhaps) by some sort of over all fears which has in effect replaced many healthy traditions such as our very way of eating toward a rush rush push push fast food run towards hard arteries and heart attacks… The famous (and amazing) performance by Glen Gould with Leonard Bernstein at Carnegie Hall of The Brahms D minor, Op 15 where Gould insists on very slow tempos… It’s almost amusing to note the critics tore into Gould for doing this supposing the slower temps were a result of some sort of inability on Gould’s part ; when in fact it is usually rather more difficult to maintain a very slow tempo than a fast one….
Ciuld you do a follow up video but now with a piano forte?
yes!
I like your talks/presentations very much Wim and your command of the English language is very impressive. I also like your accent!
that is nice to read !
The slower tempo just makes more sense in this case. I’m following your videos with much interest - I can’t say with any confidence that, historically speaking, you are correct or not; for that, I would have to engage with the literature far more than I have the time for. But aesthetically, it just chimes with me more. It just feels more “correct”. It would be great to hear the whole piece in the slower tempo.
Thanks James, great to read! There are some really cool facts coming soon. it's such an interesting journey to open your mind for it!
I only listened to you playing the beginning, without the talking before and have to admit it convinces me and opens a new world of drama for the beginning. Worth considering.
That is great to read from you Jan ! I'll try the complete grave soon, Czerny in his opus 500 is the slowest of all, he accelerated later to about 60, I'll be giving both versions after each other to compare.
I am looking forward to it. Btw whilst listening I thought fp would be an advantage, although cc is always music of silence for me, so it fits perfectly here. In your examples I'd also like to hear the transition to the Allegro - if possible.
I was at Lorenz Gadients place this weekend, and played on his Frenzl ca 1820 pf, beautiful instrument, but indeed, as you say, the cc has not only disadvantages for building tension etc. The allegro section of the pathetique is a story on its own... I'll try to give a glimpse though
Thanks for telling us so many books and materials about play keyboard instrument.
I find Czerny op.500 from Imslp, but I don't understand + fingering's mean after I read? So, what finger I could used when + show up?
Thank you very very much again ^_^
It's an older system: thumb = +, little finger = 4.
Thank you master!
Gosh I didn't know that!
Thanks Master and his share. Now! We both learn so many things about keyboard ^_^
Phil Rustage hmmmm almost like someone already replied?🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
schindler / Czerny tempo makes perfect musical sense of the grave opening. But what does it do if the contrasting faster tempo is slwed down to match??
One point, and I don't want to sound insulting to Beethoven, is the detail that Schindler was close to Beethoven at a later part of Beethoven's life, when the Maestro's hearing was bad and eventually completely gone. I wonder if that detail played any role in how Beethoven played this sonata in Schindler's presence. Perhaps Beethoven feeling the vibrations through his fingertips, rather than hearing the sound. Does Schindler say in his book that Beethoven verbally told him that the opening chord should completely fade, or does he say that this is how he heard the Maestro play this piece? Also, does Czerny say that Beethoven signed off on the metronome markings that Czerny wrote in his book? I know that Beethoven trusted Czerny probably more than any other interpreter, so what Czerny says caries a lot of weight. But I still wonder how much Czerny consulted Beethoven for every piano sonata the Czerny wrote about.
Sorry, but why didn´t they just time the entire pieces? Then we would be able to calculate exactly the recommended speed. So they could have indicated: This sand watch is 2/3 empty when the piece is over. I cannot belive no-one thought of this.
then you must be able to play all the historical mms which I can tell you're not. In a way it is simple as that, it is not about believe, but about facts!
@@AuthenticSound how is measuring time in a well-defined manner not about facts?
I'm literally practicing the Grave section of the Sonata when you uploaded this video.
Great !
What it revealed for me is also the fact that we don't enjoy or assume the silence in music...I am impressed by how we presumed everything was played due to a simple misunderstanding of the metronome use
Maestro winters, you bring warmth to my heart. Thank you!
Thank you so much for the kind words, Albert, it is so nice to read that !
Excellent lecture. So interesting. The ultra slow I've never heard that slow before. It makes the music sound more experimental and futuristic than I think Beethoven would have sanctioned. The issue of how slow to start the counting brings to my mind the opening tympani sounds at the beginning of Beethoven's beautiful violin concerto. How fast should they go? Open to many interpretations. My favorite version is Perlman with Giulini. The issue of tempi is rather new to me and I have really enjoyed what you have presented. Well done.
Thanks Fred, great to read! It's true, that much of that music becomes suddenly more 'modern' in feel
You could have a look at Haydn's D (Ré) major sonata Hob 16, particularly for the middle largo e sostenuto which, I think can be played in a similar way.
I'll make a note of your suggestion, Martin, thanks a lot !
The Grave section played in double beat is the most convincing argument for double beat practice I have yet heard.
Great to read
Your clavichord is really underrated. You should bring back from the (grave).
Well, played like that, this sonata becomes extremely painful!!! Maybe it was too painful for the Romantics and so they decided to speed up! :D
that... is subject for lot of research.
I have a hypothesis that romantic pianist began to play faster since Early Romantic repertoires gave a vehicle for them to began the trend.
Hope this doesn’t get buried in your inbox. Where can I find Czerny’s book about the tempo about Beethoven pathetique? I looked up Czerny op 500 on IMSLP, I looked at part 3, after scrolling through it a few times it seems like exercises, and I could t find the Beethoven sonata
It is in Schindler's Beethoven bio, third edition, that will be on imslp and if not for sure on archive.org!
AuthenticSound thank! Appears harder to find than I thought, might take some time. Also a quick google search shows that there’s some controversy surrounding this particular Anton Schindler. This is going to be a great read tonight!
the slow version of 12:15 is how the piece finds its value intended
I can't wait to have the book; it will be a total knock out I believe. When will it be released? Thanks a lot.
Thanks! We're completely rewriting it and that will take some time, but I'll keep you informed
I LOVED this video! But now I'd like to hear how you play the Grave on a piano, or on a early piano... Greetings from Italy!
Thanks Mauro! That will happen soon enough, once my pianforte is ready! Here is a video from a while ago, I made some more recent ones too: ua-cam.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=QFwIltuPsRQ
This approach creates innumerable situations where it is impossible to properly taper ends of phrases with proper harmonic resolutions. The resolved note is way louder than the preceding dissonant chord at the point just prior to execution of the resolution. This is disastrous! Any explanation is better than this state of affairs.
where exactly? O yes, we have almost 300 recordings up and running, but those of course were not part of the "innumerable situations"?
How do the Czerny metronom markings relate to a alla breve movement like the first movement of the moonlight? I read that Czerny's is 60 to a quarter note. Would metrical time mean 30 to a quarter note? I am really confused here. I always tell my students that this piece should be played faster than it usually is because it is alla breve.
The C with a stroke is not an old fashioned alla breve any more end of 18th.c. This is one of the most common made mistakes (and understandable), to mix the 'real AB' with, what the French would be calling 'mésure a quatre temps vite', and even that is flattened out in the late 18th c, and certainly early 19th c. An AB, very shortly said, has only eight notes, one major harmony per bar (like e.g. bach's "Allabreve" written for organ, or the F major fugue of the big organ Toccata. Mozart's g minor symph n°40, Beethovens hammerklavier, first part, those are real AB's, so with a clear pulse every half. The other mvt are just 4/4, but perhaps slightly faster than a normal C. But even then. Even CPEBach has a letter asking Breitkopf at the latest moment to change the meter from C to the C with stroke, to make sure people would not take the tempo too slow. So both meters were in certain notations (so when fastest note value is faster than eight) exchangeable. Not that I know all of that, but once you start to see the difference, it is hard to mix the 'old' AB with the new meaning of that bar indicator. Some of Czerny tempi are really slow in metrical sense, Moscheles is a bit faster. But as said in this video, it is really hard to shift from one performance practice to the other, certainly in the slower movements. I'm going trough this so to say real time here with you, but one could "smell" there is another world behind those doors. The Moonlight is a sonata I'm so much looking forward to play that on my pianoforte. It is impossible on clavichord. Hope this adds something !
Dear Mr. Winters, thank you very much for taking the time for such a detailed answer! I am looking forward to your Beethoven on fortepiano! Evelyne
Aside from your double-beat argument, performance on the clavichord does the music no favors. Particularly, the lack of dynamic difference between the first FP (Beethoven's written indication) chord and the following notes.
HelloWim ! I think that Bach ( wich is referred to as a azkenasi jewish surname ) used the jewish Gematriot to compose his works.. using the Kabbala numerology ,. sometimes take the metronome numbers as an example of a hidden meaning ( like the 138, name of the Messiah ) ..and that Beethoven found out that or anyhow understood the values of this.. taking the metronome numbers here as you mentions here ,16 and 92 , in numerology gives 7 and 11 and their very significant hidden meanings.. . what is your opinion on that ?
Hi Pelle, personally, I believe this is a bit too far from practical reality. I do not think those musicians were up for mystification and were much embedded in the daily practice of every day life. So for me, the interpretation as since Mersenne (and before!) of the duration of one second as a two second period makes so much sense.
The disapearence of the sound and the silence that follows are very interesting.I guess our way of living ,squeezing time and rushing makes one feel a bit strange at the first contact with a way like this.But if you become objective .....it's really good.Something one should try.Generally playing things slower can show interesting aspects of the music.One can reflect about the contents of the music while playing and enjoying it in a different way than playing for an audience that has a certanin kind of expectation.
no one plays Adágio in "moonlight" or Grave in pathetic. Always do the grave Faster and the adágio, much slower!
Wow, it feels incredibly complicated, to play it in that tempo
Looking forward to hearing the pianoforte version.
Wim have you heard Ronald Brautigam play this sonata on the fortepiano? He plays the beginning slow like you are talking about ( but not quite as slow as you did here) and the fortepiano resounds and sort of echoes- you can hear the strings reverberating in a way the modern piano does not.
No, I haven't, could you send me a link to his performance? Thanks !
I would Wim but the video has been removed from you tube. :( But his recordings are on Amazon and also available as mp3 downloads.
this is related to the tuning of A=432 hz instead of 440 as stated for modern pianos. 432 in a well tuned multiple stringed instrument like pianos and guitars provide all harmonics available as a result of specific resonance due to this tuning . This can provide the performer healthier conditions .Kind regards from Barcelona, Spain
@@lluisbofarullros3223 why would it have been tuned to a=432? 430 or maybe even 435 world have more likely been more accurate. You don't get more harmonics automatically with a=432. All depends on how and what temperament you're using.
@@sofiadahlen1187 no, it comes before temperament according to Pythagoras`experiences with strings´length and frequencies obtained. In fact I would say that if stringed instruments are not tuned with A=432 and the rest of strings according to this not only the instrument is out of tune, but also the performer is
Are you performing the piece in that tempo and recording it?
Hi Bryan, I will make a follow up video with the grave played completely, as an attempt to fully revisit the whole pathetique. I will definitely do that when the pianoforte is here, but it might be a project month on its own. It's not copy-paste, one need time to have that new idea and new approach settled
Dear Wim, this first measures should be played as a french overture, the dotted notes as double dotted, so a more pathetic effect will be noticed, similar the Bach C minor partita sinfonia, the WTC I fughe in D major...
Hi Murillo, would be nice to know if you have sources for this, it's often debated (in Beethoven not so much though)!
@@AuthenticSound I tried to remember where but I could not, I think was in a piano masterclass, anyway, if you listen to Schiff masterclass he plays like so. As for Bachs, is really very different in character if you do not play them with this concept in mind. The D Major and C minor partitas first movements, the WTC D major fughe, the 16th variation of Goldberg's, ie... As CPE Bach says, its a matter of taste. You should try and compare, if you like how it sounds, that's what really matters.
Just found dear Wim... The video is long, but it worths to see. At 1:04:30 he starts talking about Lully's influence over composers. Have fun. ua-cam.com/video/N5PLWqHS_e4/v-deo.html
Thanks. Well, it matters if one seeks interest in trying at least to reconstruct elements. I'm not too convinced on the double dotting, but have no """"proof"""" for it either. I really like the C minor partita opening played as is, the character becomes so... different.
interesting person, though my heart stopped when he described CPEBach's book as an essay of playing the ... pianoforte... might just be a misser, but that is a huge one. But anyway, he has a nice way of talking and putting things in perspective! thanks for the link.
I do just wonder whether an academic like yourself who studies written scores in such depth can play these classical masterpieces purely for enjoyment. We can never really know how the composers wanted them played we can only analyse the written score and interpret what we believe he/ she wanted. I love Valentina Lisitsa’s performances and realise you are using her interpretations as just one example and of course many music lovers do not have your theoretical knowledge or understanding of the written scores but I do wonder if you can ever play or listen to these classical masterpieces without dissecting and analysing every bar.
I only feature Valentina because she is representing a system, as I could use many other pianists as an example, but she is on the frontrow of speed and makes it the more clearer to anyone. One thing we do know is their tempi, left in thousands of MMs
The Grave introduction is very Kozeluchian!
yes!
Maybe a video on Kozeluch this anniversary year?
So this justifies the interpretation of Glen Gould
Gould is a master no matter what he does, but indeed instinctively he sometimes nailed it in a surprising way!
Just because an interpretation of a piece isn't historically correct or unorthodox doesn't mean it's not legitimate. At the end of the day, as long as it sound good, it's a justified way to play that piece.
Impossible for Beethoven to have played it like this. I don’t believe you!
It's Beethoven, not Monteverdi...
euhmm... yes???
Beethoven wants from us to sink in the silence with him... He knew, that the sound is the only way we can interpret the God, yet the real Voice of the God is the silence.
He clearly have hearing the God more and more till he finally sink into, completely and restfully.
I believe essentially that is very true, and matches his way of viewing the world and heaven probably a lot
11 “Go out and stand on the mountain,” the Lord replied. “I want you to see me when I pass by.”
All at once, a strong wind shook the mountain and shattered the rocks. But the Lord was not in the wind. Next, there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. 12 Then there was a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire.
Finally, there was a gentle breeze,[a] 13 and when Elijah heard it, he covered his face with his coat. He went out and stood at the entrance to the cave.
The Lord[b] asked, “Elijah, why are you here?”
you talk too much. I want to hear the music of which you speak.
Many videos make that combination, sometimes the topic needs theoretical clarification as well. Just dive a bit through my 600+ videos and you'll find what you want!