WoW (and The War Within) is Bloated
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- The War Within Alpha is not out yet and it is already looking BLOATED with new abilities. Shoutout to @Naguura and @AsmonTV for the clips used in this video!
Full TWW video - • The Store Within
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Usually when someone is bloated they are having a war within
Please 😭😭😂
Nice lol
Underrated comment. Needs to be thumbnailed.
MOOD haha
😂😂
Classic: every ability you press is impactful, does noticeable damage. You cycle a few abilities.
Dragonflight: every ability you press feels like a wet noodle, you cycle many abilities + you have to constantly think about which order to press them in, track procs and buffs/stacks, and constantly hit ability resets like Enhance shaman for example.
Yes, it's too complicated.
A big issue in raiding right now is that the amount of players that want to deal with the level of min/maxing is getting smaller and smaller every expansion. The clip from Naguura (and her video on it) is on point.
It's basically impossible to keep a (viable) mythic raiding guild going without making it your full time job to recruit, screen, trial, and manage a bench of players. And those players then have to be a subset of folks that are willing to sit and wait.
If you get all that together, all of your DPS need to be on the same page as far as expectations and skill goes. It's just a lot and the only thing that would make it better/less work is making the game easier.
Edit: Complexity of specs is good, lots of choices are fun, but if you need to get 101% out this increasing complexity to complete content... attrition hits hard.
The fact that healers have ramps is just plain stupid. Healing should be reactive. The fact that you have to know exactly when damage comes in and prepare for it makes fights predictable and boring. That's my main gripe with all current encounters. Boring with added gimmiks for the sake of adding gimmiks.
Healers having a rotation that they have to spam is also stupid. Power creep is out of control
My wife played classic with her dad as a kid and wanted to get back into the game to play together. She made it about 6 hrs and was so overwhelmed that she gave up because of the bloat but also all the new buttons. The game has evolved to a point where it’s really hard to learn as there’s no in game help learning about stuff like CCs and DRs as you mentioned. The best system to teach about classes IMO was the old monk system where you’d go back to the monastery every few levels and it’d teach you how to use the ability in combat for like 5 min then give you a buff to continue your journey. If they want to continue with this bloat system they have then they need systems like the monk one to help bridge that gap and not rely on the player base to teach the new players (because let’s be real, new players getting kicked out of +2s cause they’re new and learning happens way more than we’d like to admit)
your wife can just play wow classic, please dont add t othe game being dumbed down
@@Unown_B i think you missed the point, its about a redesign that allows for an introduction to the game mechanics and class abilities to negate those mechanics. There are some classes that yeah need to be "dumbed down" like how disc was this tier which was a success comparatively, obviously some specs are in amazing spots and dont need to be touched.
@@Unown_B the game is currently the most complicated it's ever been while also demanding fighting game level reaction times and that's a detriment to the core conceit of World of Warcraft which was EverQuest But Less Asinine.
You nailed it…wow feels a need to always “add something new”. How about just focus on quality dungeons and raids without adding 5 new buttons to press and buffs to track.
Don’t play a class with a complex rotation. Warrior, Hunter, Warlock, Evoker, Ret. 2-3 button rotations.
They did this. And these same, EXACT SAME people complained until they were red in the face about it and now we are back.
@@nickfarace9339 this is why devs don’t let fans decide what to change 99% of the time. Gamers have no idea what they want. They just know SOMETHING feels wrong but they are wrong about what that something is almost every time.
They just announced they are looking at oracle again specifically with how it is focused on PI. We’ve won!
I'm a little cold XD.
I quit retail for classic recently. Retail is generally a frustrating experience. I started playing MMOs for a more relaxed gaming experience. Retail is not that.
I maintain two spreadsheets for my raid team that drive attendance and cooldown management through Weak Auras and addons. We're a casual raid team. You need a web site to tell you which gear to equip and what gems and enchants to use. You need another web site to analyze your raid logs to tell you what you're doing wrong. So much of the game happens outside of the game it can hardly be considered a game because games are intended to entertain. This is just a second job.
You can easily clean HC raid without doing a single action you just describe.
@@Moaningbirdyeah... It's the Try Hard mentality (which is justifiable in mythic hall of Fame content) that trickles down to commoners. I'm a casual. No shame in accepting my reality. But there is no point in min/maxing in Heroic raid after most of the top guilds have cleared it... The problem is relying on your team's effort. Everybody should do their homework. No freebies but you know how it's in practice
True. There are too many buttons. I wish some maintenance buttons like renew, palm of tiger, and healing surge go away.
just look at how classic players min/max its just gaming. Everything has a video day 1 or even before release
100%
I remember trying to do some quest to join some gang in Varrock in RS when I was 13 and only had strangers in /say to ask for help
Hardcode minmaxing in classic is utterly pathetic. The game difficulity is super low, absolutely nothing special is required, yet many people sweat blood to parse higher because that is absolutely necessary for some reason... :D
@zka77 thats really disingenuous. min/maxing easy games is the core to a lot of the best speedruns.
but the complexity of how to do so is extremely different
@@Dooferification That's also disingenuous. Speedrunning is generally a niche done by a few because of the requirements or simply time-investment required to get good times and these people don't care how others play the game. They do their own thing and keep to themselves.
The problem is that the WoW community at large nowadays is either speedrunners or pretend-speedrunners to use your example, and if you're not, you're somehow trash at the game, griefing, or "not playing right".
When everyone is a "speedrunner" nobody is. At that point you just have "the game". You either play it like the community says you have to, or you don't.
New player here - thank you for sharing this and it is so true!! I started mid shadowlands, and I still feel really new, especially compared to all the people I play with who have been doing this for 15+years. Learning this game has been HARD. You are totally correct - there is so much to learn for a new player and it can be really overwhelming. I do keys and raid, and just understanding how to be decent is a lot. I feel like I am just getting to the point of begin competent in highish keys and heroic raid, and the thought of things getting so much more complicated is frustrating. Most new players I meet are overwhelmed by the learning curve. So yes, something to support new players, and players who are at the mid-range (competent and still learning) - that’s would be really helpful.
As someone who started with Dragonflight and enjoys being a little sweaty, my biggest issue with the talent trees is that they are not intuitive. I should be able to look at a talent and know roughly how impactful it will be to take or not, for both output and playstyle. Instead, I have to either sim it or read a guide....written by someone who simmed it. Hero talents are just going to exacerbate this.
do you want a little box next to each talent that says "0.3 dps gain" so you can just pick the highest number? That's boring. It's a ROLE PLAYING GAME. Choose talents that sound cool. PLAY WITH THEM. TEST THEM OUT. Pick what you ENJOY! If doing max dps in certain content is important then sim it like you would need to do anyway.
@@baseboned that works well for casuals, but not nearly enough for high level competitive play. That level requires optimization that is not doable without sims and stuff like that.
@@zka77 game is completely playable without sims, addons and meta talent builds. And by playable I mean getting curved and about 3k rio in m+ (timing 23s-25s). I pick what I think will be good for me and what looks fun
@@baseboned na
It was already like this in previous xpacs
Fully agree with you mr Jak. Been thinking this for a while. If they keep ‘fixing’ every spec by adding more defensives and utility in to every hero talent tree, there will be a point where they need to start deleting things because every spec will feel like its playing in a marvel game or some shit. Content will need to be SO HARD to kill someone
In bfa, everyone complained the specs were too basic. You really can't win if you are a wow dev
agreed, but if i had to choose one or the other, i'd go simpler. i've tried hard to convince new people to try the game, and they become discouraged when i explain all the things needed to gear and level, then on top of that...addons.
And asmongold was the worst offender, complaining the game had been too casualized. He's just a fucking hypocrite.
If you are a bad dev, then sure. There is fine line between basic and bloated mess. Blizzard going in one extreme and then another isnt players problem or fault.
True.. Thing is..Doesnt matter what the devs doo..Doing the same over and over without anything new will get boring.
We need change, and the easy change is spells and gamestyle.
Imagine if wow would have like a survival mode you could jump in and out of.. Or some sort of battle royal gameplay.. First person view...
etc etc and constantly blasting new content into it..then maybe you could get away with having more or less the same spells i guess..
but gl to make a game that would work with that many gamestyles and still be true to one genre
I don't think this is the same thing -- More choice is definitely wanted - it's the 20-step complex rotations that is being discussed here!!
I have to agree. With the new talent trees and upcomming hero talents it feels like there a dozens of different effects going on at the same time. A lot of these are cool in concept, but stacked on top of each other, feel needlessly complex and the classes feel unfocused. I'd rather they reduce the amount of effects/abilities and instead increase their strenght and fully flesh out the different concepts. Trying to intuit how to play a.spec and what talents to pick is borderline impossible now. So it kinda boils down to 'do what the guide says', to an extend that wasn't true the previous xpacs.
It's unplayable for new players
Blizzard doesn't seem interested in that though, just bleeding their hardcore fans dry.
Multiple expansions ago I was able to play almost any spec with no big difficulty. But now I only play Devastation Evoker because it has the least amount of complexity to play. Any other class/spec and I need to have Weak Auras to track all the stuff that is going on and at that point its not even fun. :(
Lots of things have changed over the years and min/maxing now is so much more involved. I have played wow since release on and off, leaving to try other games but I always end up back at some point, each time I come back though I have to spend hours and hours getting the right addons and weak aura's, looking into the best specs gear consumables dungeon routes etc just to play without being kicked from a group, with things like Warcraft logs and some of the other addons you can spend longer getting into the best way to perform than playing the game. Information access has just taken it to extreme's.
Personally, especially as I age, I do not want more abilities to find hot keys for, make macros and WAs for. In my opinion, they are going in the wrong direction for hero talents. It should be more theme based, which includes just visual changes to certain spells and abilities based on the tree you choose rather than adding another layer of complexity to rotations and play style. The current hero talents are just going to be a balancing nightmare.
Button bloat this expansion for most of the specs is insane. Not only buttons, but also buffs and auras that you need to track and play around. Pruning is absolutely necessary, but is very unlikely due to the nature of the hero talents, imo. Will see what happens, but war within doesn't look promising in that regard and most likely will get way worse than DF is.
WOD class re work / ability prune ruined the game
Pruning kills the game 100%.
@@WickedFlamezZ Not pruning is how you get absolutely idiotic bullshit like Brewmaster Monks with their 9000 buttons. Double the effort for the same shit a Blood DK can do with less buttons and mechanical complexity. Pruning never killed the game before and it won't kill it now either.
@@Ainastrasza then play dk…. Why does every class need to be brain dead. Half the classes in the game are already mostly 1 action bar or 2-3 button rotations. Pick one of them.
The game has brain dead options and non-brain dead options. Good design.
Why should everyone have to play brain dead because you don’t want to play a spec that is more your speed?
Reminds me of surrender to madness early on in legion.
The issue wasn't that shadows been able to do exceptionally well but that the higher percentile you got, the bigger the gap between shadows and the rest became.
A 95% player was able to get so much more out of the talent than a 80% player, which simply leads to massive balancing issues. Either stuff becomes rather trivial on the top end or is way too hard even for solid players.
So excited for Oracle to be DOA until 11.3.5 when its broken AF for a season before being removed.
Think its OP at start, then ded for a couple seasons, then op at the end
Asmongold? Contradicting himself 5 minutes after making an statement? Aint no way bro.
He's a moron - don't know why people still feed his clickbait videos
If there's any time when you can take Asmongold seriously is when talking about WoW.
The community as a whole (and i definetely include myself in this) has complained for a few expack that customisation was very shallow. We finally get some slight customisation can we just keep it that way?
I think hero talents are fine conceptually, Oracle needs to be streamlined and there are a few specs with too many skills but the evergreen systems are made so you can just have more choice overtime instead of having a ton of layers one after the other.
The resumption of the talent tree in Dragonflight added the customization that was lacking in retail Wow. Now with the addition of Hero Talents for the War Within, I think Blizzard has tipped the scale over to being excessively customizable. And what happens when Midnight comes along? Is there going to be yet another new layer of Talents that players will have to deal with?
@@christopherdaffron8115GW2 has like 50 talent trees to choose from
I'm not a fan of the Hero specs. They will further cement the need to respec for every single type of activity. As long as power is tied to them it won't be a choise but a requirement to use the "correct" one.
Drop the power and let's have it fully cosmetic. That way it will also be evergreen if there is unlock requirements for some or for future ones.
I'd be more excited if they droped hero talents and did a big pass and rework of Mastery. There are some really boring ones and some that could be tuned to work better with newer builds.
If they tried out adding a new secondary stat in alpha/beta that would be really cool. It's been super long since we had one.
In terms of skill floor and ceiling they'll have to lessen the gap. I can probably level, gear up and do LFR using only auto-attacks and whatever skill is on my "1" key when I roll. Between that and Mythic with no add-ons there is a gap so wide that nobody even pretends that the is balance going on in there. As for the idea of banning add-ons I think that would not work without also raising the skill floor and lowering the ceiling. So much is automated away that we almost have two different games between a plain install and a high end raiders.
Even so the default UI is still lacking despite the "recent" rework
So many keybinds, dps rotations are too complex and too many buffs to keep track of. Prune it all!
I still argue the answer is something like lost ark where you have multiple versions of an ability to pick from as opposed to talent trees as we have them. Prune the keybinds way back but make people make hard choices. ESO does this with limited bar space. You can absolutely have tons of depth in gameplay without 35+ binds like you see on monk.
This is pretty much exactly what they went for in Legion.
You know, just like how this whole conversation is one people had in MoP that led to this already being done and people complaining until we got back to the point we are at in DF.
Yeah, I had to give up on my Elemental Shaman in S2 when it went lightning build. You just had SO MANY buff effects that you had to know how to stack exactly right just to do similar damage to other classes.
Master of the Elements, Surge of Power, Echoes of the Great Sundering, Mountains will Fall, Electrified Shocks, Splintered Elements, Stormkeeper, Prim wave, Icefury, Elemental Blast.
All of these buffs and abilities you had to know exactly what triggered them, how they coordinated, what order to activate them in, and then execute a rotation involving combining them all into a huge burst window for your lightning bolts. It was WAYY to complicated.
Not all specs were as complicated as Shaman was to me (I play Evoker and Warrior as well and I've had good time with them) But Shaman was something else.
Yes, too complex, too much going on, UI's too bloated, too many macros, it's miserable. There's too many buttons man. They had the great pruning of abilities and then reversed it 2 expansions alter. I preferred having fewer buttons. I agree that those abilities that went away were probably good, and now theyre back, so theyre good, but can't they just combine them with other abilities to reduce key bloat? I'm 40, this shit is hard for me now.
Shadowlands showed they had imagination with abilities in that vault thing, but then those ability modifications died with shadowlands. it was a shame.
Blizz just announced they are revisiting the Oracle Hero talents - especially around PI
I honestly think alot simpler specs are actually lacking complexity. I do think modifiers are bloated. But alot rotations don't need to get disc protest affect.
I still stand by Especially for healer they need normalize how much damage classes can mitigate passively and actively so they can restore attrition type healing. Less about remove ability but more about balancing damage taken so they can design encounters for interesting healing that isn't one shots.
@@richardburke9 two things can be true and changed.
I saw the issue with the new DF talents from a mile away - what about the next xpac? If they increase the level cap by 10 are you going to have 10 more points to spend on the tree? Of course not, so the next expansion would have to either rebuild the talent tree again or go back to a borrowed power system. Ok so we get hero talents in TWW, then what about Midnight? Super-hero talents? Soulbinds? One-off expansion Artifact Weapons? Gear relevant to one patch only (corruption, etc.)?
after seeing that hero talent tree i only wish that they scrap the entire thing and just make it an optical mod to existing spells instead so i can be what i want to be without being forced into a specific one because the others are simply worse.
Asmon cant even do a heroic clear......
It’s crazy to me people consider asmon’s input on pve he’s not a competent player by any means
He used to be a reliable temp check on the game, but he stopped playing years ago and is no longer in tune with the game
I'm not an asmon fan by any means, I think he's got plenty of shitty opinions on the game and on pretty much every other topic he touches, but it's just disingenuous to say he "can't" do a heroic clear when it's clear that he just "isn't" doing a heroic clear, and hasn't been interested in actually playing retail anymore/for a very long time. You can definitely say he is not playing the game and can't field an opinion on the current state of it; but painting the picture that he "cant" clear heroic or that he's, "not a competent player by any means" is just ignorant. If you think that someone who raided mythic tiers in Legion and parsed 99-100 actually CAN'T as in, "doesn't have the skill or ability to clear a heroic", it's a delusional take. Sure the game has gotten harder, but Dragonflight isn't 10x harder than any tier from Legion or WoD, it's not like if you used to be able to clear mythic, and you pick up DF, you're instantly hard stuck clearing normal mode because everything has gotten exponentially more difficult.
Asmongold is a sensationalist drama hungry moron who posts a video claiming "X WoW iteration is dead" everytime anything slightly bad of note happens, and you can say people shouldn't listen to him because he doesn't play the game anymore and it's a completely valid take -- but unironically claiming he's a bad or incompetent player/that he insults new content because he just can't clear is just dumb as fuck and reeks like someone barely clearing +10s who's angry that the big youtube man insulted their favourite game to collect transmog in
@rdologist okay, so nobody hates Asmongold more than I do, but (hot take incoming) we should also be listening to casual players in regards to their opinions on whether or not the game is too complex or even just fun.
Not everyone is or even wants to emulate speedrunners, which is what RWF players and anyone else chasing those models are.
@@The0nlyytotally 100%
They started doing this passive proc nonsense with azerite armor. Where passive procs started doing more damage then your actual abilities you are using.
Can we also talk about the speed af the game? Why is every class ultra fast now? Its insanity
This is it. It's not that the game is more complex, it's that the designs are bloated. Ever since they started doing big borrowed power systems in Legion imo. It's all of this: ability also has a chance to cause X which also has a chance to do Y - kind of design.
I want the game complex while simple to understand. Not randomness stacked on top of randomness. BFA disc was hard, but simple. MOP feral druid was the same. Much more difficult/involved than any specs we currently have, yet had far fewer proc elements stacking on top of each other.
And yes, I don't understand why every spec has to be gcd locked and focused on cooldown windows.
I don't mind the hero talents as long as they keep them about visual effects and flavor and less about 10 new passive buffs you need to track to know when your wombo combo needs to go off -- they already have the right idea with making them something you don't have much choice in between just selecting which one you have active, maybe the choice nodes are a bit too much on top of everything else
When wanting to play a new class, I have to do research for one. That alone should be an indicator that wow has gotten too complex. I research the rotation and see a full 2 pages explaning how the class does damage. For example, I looked at fire mage rotation on wowhead then decided not to play a new class.
I don't know why Blizz needs to rework my class every expansion. I chose my character, presumably I like my Class and Spec. Give me a great story, engaging and challenging content in a new expansion, and you don't have to remake the wheel. As to getting rid of addons, lets specify. Because if you get rid of bartender, for example, left handed players like me are SOL. But as for having to get a bunch of addons to effectively Raid or even just to manage two dozen spells efficiently is a failure of the game.
I'm an older guy playing WoW since 2005 and I see plenty of issues.
Yes, the game is way way too complex. I went back playing classic/BC/LK but these are way too slow, way too timesinky and unchallenging for an experienced player. Retail on the other hand is the exact opposite. If you wanna just level and play low level pve/pvp very casually in retail, it's all fine, altough for a new player it's still a huge amount of info to process. There are shitton of items, mechanics that are still playable but entirely irrelevant (f.e. garrisons). New players are drenched in these things and they must figure this all out.
Playing retail on a competitive level is very challenging. You need a SHITTON of keybinds, a prune is definitely overdue. There are a SHITTON of things to react to every few seconds in a competitive setting. Classes are super complex, even picking the optimal talents / gear is neigh impossible without emulators. Then there are all these procs and other random stuff that may change your optimal rotation anytime instantly and unexpectedly.
To add insult to injury, PVE is super shitty when it comes to communicating WTF is going on. We keep seeing shit like green puddles on green surfaces (or purple over purple, whatever), attacks that are very improperly telegraphed. Attacks telegraphed but the visual is hidden under a rug LITERALLY. They can't fix that shit since 20 years. Attacks that are literally neigh impossible to see properly, f.e. that mob before the first boss in BRH that does a huge frontal but it's not telegraphed and the mob is almost transparent. If the tank isn't marked you have no fucking clue if you are standing in front of that mob or not. The complexity, the amount of things to watch out for is so high that it's not humanly possible for most people to play anything close to high level pve without a bunch of well configured addons that will warn you about wtf is going on and wtf you should do. Sure, the basic UI has been improved drastically, but it's still not enough for high level competitive gameplay. PVE is full of shit like that and it desperately needs to be fixed.
It is hard for veteran players and downright terrifying for new players. When my wife (tried wow 10+ years ago for a few days) sees M+ runs she says she can't even figure out wtf is happening and how can anyone figure out what needs to be seen/done here, it's sooo much things going on at once. The screen is full of info. And this is with well configured simple UIs that don't show unnecessary stuff.
Retail WoW is a good example of the saying "less is more". I don't need 3-4 buffs or debuffs on myself and the target because i hit them with a ability to auto-attack. It is just padding you end up ignoring.
as someone whos been playing a few years its really difficult to find my way around any place. Just trying to find the timewalking raid quest giver is a chore. there doesnt seen to be any rhime or reason as to where its at.
It’s in a related city for each zone.
TBC is in shattrath
Wrath vendor is in old dalaran.
Cata vendor is in Org
Etc.
Every week that it’s available, doing a single TW dungeon gets you the quest item to turn in. And will lead you to the vendor.
@@ElCapitanGames but how do you know that unless another player tells you? I didn’t even know about these raid quests until a month ago
@@Rhanyradoing a dungeon gets you a quest item that will literally lead your through the portals to get to the dungeon quest giver. Which is right next to the raid person. Also Google. Do you not Google everything about wow before embarking? Massive time save. And an absolute necessity
@@ElCapitanGames I do google most things but sometimes you just want a game to be fun.
Not sure I understand his point about power acquisition in the game right now. It's just gear and the gear has never been more accessible thanks to the upgrade system.
But you need to grind so much M+ to get the crests that it takes about the same time as it was to catch up on AP.
IMO he was talking about borrowed powers in the past like Legion and BFA. The acquisition (farming artifact power) was terrible, specially for alts...
if someone feels insulted by getting called a sweaty nerd then they are not a sweaty nerd😆
Idk what hero talents should be, but I dont want more complexity in my class. I don't consider myself a bad player, been pushing 25keys this season as a healer. And thought ill try some other specs. Tried a brewmaster (coz had a monk geared). I think it got like 5 extra buttons since shadowlands. I had to go through talents getting more passive stuff, just so i could press it all. Played a warrior, tried dpsing. Supposed to not be that complex, and it technicaly isnt, but somehow no matter what i do i cant reach what sims expect me to do. And thats not taking in concideration that Single target is dogpoop on Arms Warrior. It feels like i understand all the interactions of the skills, but i just cant compare to sims or other dps in my groups. And i dont think im alone on this one. This week MDI is happening. Those creatures are doing numbers on a single target I rearely see in my pug groups on an AoE pack. There shouldnt be that much of a difference between players. Its just insane. Honestly ive started looking at videos or articles to see what could i play if wanted to make it easier on myself and be more competitive in my performance
Pro Tip: Wear long sleeve shirt/hoody if you are cold. Not a T-Shirt.
When you are sick you can be freezing one minute and burning up the next. Changing your entire attire doesn't make sense. Just wear something comfortable and throw on a blanket or fan as needed.
This
The game is the most fun when you don’t think about this shit
Some of the issues I have in this video is mainly Asmon’s points . First he talks about how it’s hard for him to get back into the game and says he doesn’t feel this way with lost ark etc . BUT it’s because he’s a returning player with old knowledge so he is actively LOOKING for stuff if it’s there or not so he has that feeling that he needs to figure this out so he can get back to the level of competing he wants to. It’s like a sports athlete, if they were pro their whole life and then took a break came back and the sport changed they are gonna be thrown for a loop and feel disconnected because that’s what they looked for. I’ve felt unable to get in lost ark because I feel it’s too bloated . I’ve introduced new players to retail and it’s a learning curve for them yes HOWEVER that’s expected of any game outside of like basic shooters or sports games. I don’t link hero talents to covenants at all, but on the topic of covenants I don’t think they were bad they just needed the swapping thing to be something we could do effortlessly, imagine if we could swap covenants boss by boss like we do the current talents ? People would love covenants. People will forever try to min max , hell I know players who sweat harder in Classic than some mythic guilds lol. The game isn’t perfect never will be , but the constant doom and gloom is usually fabricated IMO. The talent system was a huge W , hero talents I feel will be a W as well .
Everything mentioned in this video and the comments is why I now treat WoW as any other cozy game - I log on, do some farming, some t-mog farms, work on some rep, and then logout. None of my gear is enchanted or gemmed. I'm not raiding - I don't even join LFR outside of the 1 run required to complete the campaign. It's a much more enjoyable experience for me. I'm not about to continue working in Project Management in order to succeed in a game that I pay to relax.
This conversation made me remember that I play Brewmaster and I currently need two keyboards to be able to bind all the skills.
The ironic thing is that I barely have time to press many of these buttons because of the GCD.
Anyway, I don't want more complexity, I just want Blizzard to add more usefulness to my class. Something like "filling the holes". And also new animations.
By the way, if an addon is necessary for you to play correctly, Blizzard has already failed in the design.
3:10 "if you don't complete the dungeon in time, it's not fun"... I think this is partly due to how punishing it is to deplete dungeons in end-game. Progress, of any form, is rewarding. It feels good to see your gear get better, it feels good in raid to push the boss HP down further with new attempts, to see new phases, get the first kill. In m+ the only real increments are going faster, or higher. If you feel like something clicked and you're doing a bit better than before, but someone else makes a mistake that causes you to fail and disband mid-key, its definitely NOT rewarding. If you fail and cause that cascade, its even worse. Probably why people that cause depletes alt+f4 so often.
The pug system isn't really built for going faster unless you're just farming vault keys. Key depletion makes you unwilling to experiment, unless you are with a group of friends that can somewhat reliably work together to get that key back... So it really becomes punishing to allow people room for creativity in routes and group composition.
Personally my favorite moments tend to be going up a difficulty level, watching something new kill me, and knowing that even if the timer is dead, I have a new challenge to learn and overcome. How do I deal with this? What strategy will let me do it reliably enough that next time I'm here, I can do it in one go? What do I need to watch out for that will cause me to fail? Everything I learn feels like progress and is very fun. Especially, but not necessarily, with friends.
I think the bloat just makes it harder for them to make things feel balanced for players, while not addressing the main issues.
I think the talent tree we have now is exactly at the right spot and doesn't require even more different talent trees.
I'm even more scared how the tier sets will work with this amount of choices.
I think the idea is cool but it becomes too complicated.
As a new player, who chose to heal, there is a ton of keybind. It does get overwhelming. I don't mind talent tree much but damn am i popping my ass. I had to be free for a whole month ful time to kind of understanding my class and play.
As someone who played Retail at a higher level than average, i do think Retail has strength with the complexity sometimes. But i cannot deny i had the most fun in SoD as simple as it is.
I used to be a Vanilla lover and quit in 2019 because of the min-max bs from the community, it allowed at least to understand that i like to min-max but not to THAT extent.
SoD showed me that Classic players have a sh*t strategy-execution because they spend most of their boss-fights fighting a pillar, and even BFD was a slap to their face week 1 on Kelris, instead of understanding that you just needed a Priest, they started to think "we have to min-max more" to achieve the kill, which was hilariously ridiculous.
My point is, that most of the Retail population is also as casual as the Classic sweaty players in terms of skill.
SoD is a good benchmark in some ways and they should try out these experiments on Retail which will allow Blizzard to find a middle ground.
Hasn't Blizzard been down this path before? IIRC, the talent trees and the number of different buttons that you had to press were bloated. Then we had squishes and the great purge and got the reduced talent choices. So, it looks like history is repeating itself.
The hero talents makes me very wary of coming back to WoW even as a veteran player. I quit DF within the first month due to the bloat of the new talent trees, and now they're adding even more?
What I want as a player is the old shadowform visual for priests, not a bunch of systems and bloat.
Being able to choose which M+ you want to play at any time, not being bound to a static 20 man mythic raid, and not requiring 20 addons and 5 external sites to play the game for you would also be pretty nice.
100% disagree with borrowed power being good in paper. It always leads to class refactoring and changing constantly so playstyles that one enjoy are deprecated and it's very frustrating. I believe Tier Sets, Trinkets and Rare-Drop items are enough to keep seasons fresh and that Blizz should focus more on gameplay loops and options rather than classes.
We have dozens of specs, we don't need to continously change them necessarily. Just make it easier for players to fresh up their gameplay with alts....
Tier Sets are borrowed power tho
@@AutomaticJak They are, like all gear with a powerful effect. But they are seasonal and however impactful some maybe they don't require expansion level class refactoring.
"Borrowed power" to my knowledge was coined in early BfA as a consequence of loosing the artifacts, it's a short way of describing the problem but it's more accurate to say "Expansion exclusive player power systems" that is the problem. Just less catchy.
Trinket descriptions in Vanilla might be a couple words, in retail today it's a couple paragraphs
Systems of Warcraft|World of E-sports|World of Bloatcraft|World of Anime
The Burning System|The E-Crusade|The Bloated Crusade|The Burning Manga
System of the Lich King|Wrath of the E-Sport|Wrath of the Bloated King|UwU of the Anime King
Systemysm|C-Sport|Bloatysm|Animeysm
Systems of Pandaria|Mists of E-Sports|Mists of Bloataria|Mists of Anime
Systems of Draenor|Warlords of E-Sports|Bloatlords of Draenor|Animelords of Draenor
System|E-Sport|Bloat|Anime
Systems for Allzeroth|Battle for more E-Sports|Battle for Bloateroth|Battle for Anime
Systemlands|Shadowsports|Bloatedlands|Animelands
Systemflight|Dragonsports|Dragonbloat|Animeflight
Final Warcraft: The Systems Within|EA-Sports: It's Within The Game|The Bloat Within|The Furry Within
And that complexity generates more toxicity...
They are so afraid of just making a bunch of basic modifiers like "20% increased damage to X ability". But it's fine! It's fine and you need that basic filler if you want to have a lot of nodes on your trees, they are very safe and give more room for more unusual or complex abilities to breathe and be distinct and meaningful.
Like a lot of the Frostfire tree is sort of like this where it's like "Your Comet Storm also does a Meteor." Fuck yeah! Just slap some fire and ice together and make it look cool without overloading all the stupid-ass stacking buffs.
I'll always be able to adjust to the bloat, but I know a lot of people (including my friends) have issues with it. It would be such an easy W for them to just make Hero talents cosmetic, but anytime something like that comes up they cite limited resources etc etc, but Shadowlands alone added over 200 mounts so are there reeeeeally limited resources, or just poorly allotted resources?
Can we get a video with your opinion on the gameplay speed? Every class is now ultra fast gameplay. I dont like that. Feels like its developed by people with adhd
Button bloat and button pruning does come in waves and has been the case. peaked in mop, heavy pruning in WoD. Legion until and including shadowlands were the borrowed power era and since there is no borrowed power now blizzard made a talent system that has the potential for bloat. My favourite borrowed power system was the Legion Artifact. I would not mind something like that going forward but with less of a grind and since War Within is introducing Warbands a shared system on your account may be interesting. I agree on having most war within hero talents be cosmetic also.
6 buttons max including cc and self heal/bubble. Legion was so streamlined i loved it for the pvp. Raids were hard. Leveling was very unique for each class
In shadowlands/dragon flight im at 9 buttons plus 3 mods
@@scottsetzke79676 including utility? Brother do you want the game to play itself? Rotations aren’t even hard right now. No shot people look at Hunter, Warrior, Warlock, Evoker, and Ret say this is too hard.
I want to able to play wow with no weakaura needed to track buffs for my class and to clear raids/dungeons with no deadlybossmods
The necessity of pruning and then rebuilding complexity is actually one reason they created borrowed power. It's complexity with the expectation that it will be removed or changed later. Tier sets fit the bill well, but it doesn't seem to be enough to keep people excited about their classes. Borrowed power is clearly not the answer, either. No clue what the best solution is, tbh.
You have different players, so someone is always going to be upset.
1. The player that has played for 20 years. They grew with the game as it gradually became more complex, adding just a few things at a time. They enjoy the epeen and telling new players "git gud".
2. The ones wanting Dark Souls MMO.
3. The dwindling "average" player who wants a social game with respectable challenge, but not a job.
4. The collectors who are totally over the rest of it.
IMO, the solution is for the devs to get VERY clear about the difference between complexity and DEPTH. I personally think most of the players and devs lose sight of the difference. I think the healthiest place for an MMO is to have DEPTH, not complexity. You don't need 32+ keybinds to have depth.
It comes about because the only response they have to what came before is: "bigger, better, stronger." At some point things peak. Especially after 2 decades. What it should be is: "different." But Ion will never understand that.
As someone who plays Arcane mage and Brewmaster monk, I have no problem with a lot of buttons. But I think the support classes is not a good idea. Raiders fighting over PI is annoying enough already and I don't think there should be more abilities like it. I have the most fun when I'm playing WoW, not warcraft logs and simcraft. Leave the complicated math to ARPGs and let us smash our buttons. zug zug
I'm not even new to wow, but I haven't been serious on it since Vanilla. I came in season 3 DF cause a friend got me to get back into it. I decided if I'm going to play, I'm going to go hard. The amount of effort I think I put in to catch up to what is going on and to push content, or even just to get on a field where I could be decent was ALOT. The beginning, before I even played end game I researched so much. When I boot my computer, I open the browser and restore the 5 windows filled with tabs for easy access information. Im still not even the best. I got aotc and Im doing mythic 21s. I can't even imagine how these ppl are doing 31s and mythic raid. Granted I play for fun alot too. This game takes research, dedication, commitment, reliable people with similar mindset to do what needs to be done to progress. This game made me better in real life on how I pre prepare and approach things lol. Wow, you can just level and have fun. If you want to be serious though. You can't just push hard and keep doing things and you'll be the best. There is an intellectual approach to be a good player.
The only thing that is left in retail WoW right now is skill expression. There is no more content besides highly competitive M+, PVP or Raiding since the role-playing and adventuring aspect is very stale and is replaced with reputation and mounts farming. People want to push higher keys, do mythic raids and play complex specs BECAUSE it helps them express themselves and have fun in this game. Talent trees and heroic talents only help people express themselves through their gameplay better. The gap is needed because otherwise a lot of people won't have any motivation for playing. Pressing same keybinds for 5 years is no fun, I'm all for new mechanics, new talents and more gameplay diversity than "generate resource with this, dump them with that."
What really IS bloated is the amount of mechanics and thigs to track that is happening at the same time and no universal coherent way of tracking that. One of the only things I liked about FFXIV gameplay is that how there are no addons and everybody plays with the same well customizable user interface. It levels the playing field, makes game more fair for new players and actually allows developers to focus on gameplay changes instead of thinking what new mechanics to add to old dungeons so the wouldn't be trivial with addons.
Talents is no the problem for getting new players in. There is just no content for new players through which then can learn the game and have fun. There are raids, there are keys, there are dungeons, what else to do?
Also, seeing how terrible new player experience is in general, I came to thing blizzard are more interesting to keep current/old players entertained instead of getting new ones.
making augmentation's buffs not be raid wide stuff that buffed the whole raid in different ways while they did their rotation just like FFXIV support classes do was a mistake.
I think one of the biggest issues is that Blizzard, for so long, were just so lazy when it came to the game. They knew that there would be an addon created, if there wasn't one already, so they didn't need to do half as much work as they should to make things clear and / or understandable to the players. So know we're all, almost, reliant on addons to understand and correctly interpret the information that is being given back to us. Now all of a sudden Blizzard seem to hate the monster they have created and act like it's not their own fault it is the way it is.
I feel like War Within is going to be the worst expansion we've ever had.
Menus within menus and tons of abilities. Each spec should have maybe 4 main abilities, one or two utility abilities, and one major cool down. The action bar starts with 12 ability slots. I feel they should try to keep it around that to cover all of your main needs. A consumable spot, a trinket/ on use slot, and a mount slot. If you want different/more spells they should flesh out new classes and/or specs. The complexity should be from procs, stacking buffs/debuffs. They should go back to basics from classic/tbc where each class/spec had a specific contribution to the group. They should refocus on the damage types and their potential synergy for example frost mages/ frost DK, Warlocks/Demon hunters, Paladins/Priest?, Rogues/Hunters for poison/bleeds? Just spit balling.
To be honest, im confused about these "hero talents", like, it seems that you will have enough points to click all talents within choosen eem "title/subclass"?! All 10 talents essentially is just choice betwen 2 titles.
It would be better that this is less talent focused and more spell animation, transmog or lore focusing. For example, dark ranger with actually black aimed shot (and maybe some extra dmg on it or effect).
Oh well, but top1% of min maxer grinders wouldnt support that
I played Dark Knight in FF14 - it had MORE buttons than ANY class in WoW by about 50%. The "rotation" was long and clunky. Modern WoW is way cleaner than FF14 or GW2 rotations. People just parroting Asmon"I fell off"Gold and his constant whine that wow has too much, when WoW is cleaner than it's competition for a while now.
the main criticism of most articles Ive read so far about hero talents was exactly that it didnt change gameplay enough. I personally like them so far and I think they are heading in the right direction, but I agree that as a new player, this would all be too much.
That said, a new player doesnt start with hero talents. Still, the game is too complicated for new players, I agree.
Casual minded player random thoughts: I think wow is a bit too bloated with the amount of similar spells and buffs (I didn't play during BFA). Like I don't think we need 2 spells for every type like e.g. one with slightly less cast time costs more mana and does a little bit less and the other which is slightly higher cast time, costs less mana and does a little bit more, difference between these is often almost negligible and it's just if something has been there from the start does not mean it's a good thing, we could do a little bit trimming there. I think it always just feels bad to press the one which cast time is longer just to save 0,1% mana as slow casts are just clucky and have no modern feel to it(-> empower spells could be the thing for all the specs like single press vs holding the same spell does, like single press/1sec press is like Flash heal type and holding more and more makes it std Heal type and same for dps abilities). I really dig the idea to empower every type of spell/ability. It would feel super nice when high damage is coming out that everybody just press holds defensive button to absorb as much as possible of the damage by hunkering down, but if they would feel cocky they could just single press it and go for dps. I think this way we could get more depth with less buttons in our bars also the idea that you can do different talent builds around different spells like you choose only handfull of spells which you will empower with your talents and that should determine your style like only add half of the overall spell book to your bars(I'm really hoping hero talents will do this). If I'm doing these intense dance mechanics etc during fights I still want to put out as much as possible heals/dps -> I want my max output to be as simple as possible to execute to play the scenario and have fun (this is why we play meta specs as they are by the time the easiest to execute above average).
HEADLINE - WOW's reason for existence is to make money. The only way to do that is through New Players and Player Retention/Time in game. If you make it easier and less time consuming to do certain "tasks" in the game you have to add additional steps to keep players in game between patches/expansions. Making the game harder for higher level in game content keeps hardcore players (who generally stop playing once completing raids) helps to keep them in game and paying for subs.
This is definitely a topic that I think needs to be looks more in-depth. Warning this is just my opinion which I feel is valid for me. In no way would I tell someone how they should enjoy their game. So please pay me the courtesy of not assuming I am championing a dismantling of a system you find fun. With the disclaimer out of the way. It might be the middle-aged gamer in me talking, but I think it is okay for the end game content in WoW to be completable for a vast majority of the player base. The complexity of the game is a system that the game dev use to make content challenging for the high-end skill players.
How it works now: Raid releases and World First raiders start pulling bosses. Most bosses are tuned where it is mathematically impossible to beat with current gear. in 2-3 weeks the best players in the world beat the boss and it is immediately nerfed. Another Month goes by and the hall of fame is finally filled and their have been many nerfs to all the bosses in the raid. Nerfs continue through the rest of the season meaning that the boss killed on the last day of the expansion looks nothing like the boss killed in the race for world first.
In my opinion this is how it should work: Every single player should be about to fight the same exact version of the Mythic difficulty big bad evil guy. I think it is a good trade off if it takes the best players that are super optimized 1 day to beat the boss, if the guild group can spend 6-8 weeks gearing up and being able to beat exact same non-nerfed boss.
This can also be extended for M+. Why did they not cap the level of keys. They capped the ilvl of gear rewards so why make the difficulty infinitely increase? My solution would be to cap the key level where the gear rewards cap and let people run them for better times. There is already a timer built into the game mode. It will also help with the everything has to be somewhat balanced or you get a god comp for the highest level content. If every class is able to complete the highest level key it just takes 5-15 minutes then players can play and complete the same game on the same difficulty as the elite, it just takes them a little longer.
That's a cool statement, acqurositioning broughted power. Oe required power to bring to use. That why it's called broughted power. Because it's on lown from somewhere.
Furthermore, about the game, I agree that one has to have a university degree to understand it, to understand what goes where.
While some pruning is probably nessecary, I think a big factor in this issue is how archaic WoWs UI (for gameplay) has become. The updates in dragonflight to fix a lot of the exterior graphics was great, but they stopped short by not cleaning up the bigger gameplay impacting visuals.
For instance, one issue with rotation complexity is due to how many different interactions a single spell might have in what causes it to proc, what it then causes to proc, what buffs it does or doesn't scale with, etc. Some of this complexity would be alleviated if they cleaned up tooltips and then gave us dynamic tooltips so I could mouseover my ability and actually understand all the effects it has.
Similarly, a lot the random procs and buffs we get should be better conveyed to players. For example, I played enhancement from WotLK to WoD (and again in SLs) without needing any external tracker for Maelstrom procs because it had an excellent visual that was clear to see if I had enough charges to instant cast. But when they added the talent in DF to expand MSW procs from 5 to 10, they didnt update the visual accordingly so now I need weakauras to track this buff. Adding clearer visual indicators of buffs and procs and timings would not only clean-up the need for some addons/WAs, but would also make the game much friendlier for new players by indicating good gameplay behaviors.
I think power addition through means other than Talent Trees and Tier Set Bonuses is just the same old mistake they made before. All they had to do was to add some new talents and improve already existed Trees, and make Hero Talents completely cosmetics based. Say, make each talent change the look of the spells in different ways.
I guess Blizzard just dont want to spend more money on VFX guys.
“smite smite smite smite smite smite smite smite smite smite smite smite smite”
*complexity*
Been watching your videos for some time Jak and you have paved the way for me in achieving 3k+ io in Season 3 as a Disc priest. It's the first season where I have done that (Got to the lower-mid 2k in S2 and throughout Shadowlands).
There is a lot to agree with here, however I think the fundamental problem is the WoW community just doesn't know what they want. Blizz has a track record of not listening to their community, unfortunately, but they have demonstrated recently that they are becoming more and more open to community feedback. DF was very well received at launch with the newly reworked talent/profession trees and now the community is doubling back? This is what the community asked for! I find that Blizz's decision to introduce hero tree's is simply expanding on what was received well in DF.
I can speak from first-hand experience that the game is not very friendly to new players, and the community is mostly to blame for that through toxicity and not being patient with players of varying experience levels. Some of the best experiences in retail/classic WoW is when the community comes together and that seems to have gone by the wayside. Why? FF16 has a great community and I think that is likely one of the reasons that it is so well received and successful.
I've seen a few comments on this vid about how Blizz can't win and I tend to back that viewpoint. (sorry for the long thread).
Before even watching the video - I've been playing WoW since release, I played Shadowlands....when I tried to jump back in this last expansion I actually felt overwhelmed with everything going on/it's so far from the game I knew that I didn't even get a toon to level cap. Feels like a completely different game at this point.
I started retail again a few days ago for the first time in years. The talent tree's are very over whelming. Even with all this choice i feel more restricted because i haven't had time to go through it all. Then find on WoWhead that there are custom builds for each fight and just CBA and use the basic ST / AOE because thats easier to learn. Having boss specific stuff is actually really cool, i really liked this in MoP . But it was so much friendlier then as you had the core spec abilities which remained the same and you got access to a few talents that could have an impact to a boss encounter.
I agree with most of the video, and as a healer especially I don't like how the power creep has affected dragonflight as a whole. But I don't think is as inaccessible as it has ever been. legion thru shadowlands felt like it had far more arbitrary hurdles compared to just learning the talent trees. Hero trees certainly have potential to make this worse though.
i started playing wow recently with cata classic and loved it, i then tried out retail and it was super overwhelming. i put about half a day playtime into the game, got to 70 and went back to classic because i felt so lost in what to do.
I am amused that all the creators in the community praised how great the new talent trees when they came out. Hailing it as a return to the glory days of classic. Now they are bemoaning those trees as too complex (which was the exact reason they were changed in MOP to begin with). And the thing is, they are not complex at all. They give the illusion of complexity. In reality you only have ~5 meaningful choices to make, even with the new hero talents.
If you want to talk about complication, it's in raid encounters. 1st and 2nd bosses in current raids, are more difficult and complex than penultimate bosses were in previous expansions. Difficulty increases are fine, but the exponential increase in difficulty isn't due to players being more skilled, it's due to an attempt to outwit addon/WA developers....to the point that encounters become impossible to complete without the use of them.
Its far easier to start with too much and trim the fat than starting with too little and trying to create. This is basic SOP in nearly any new project.
Its funny for me to see that the Pruned Abilities in MOP and peoplce had a massive outcry and yet here we are claim that MOP was Peak Class Design for a lot of people :D
Hero talents should only enhance current talents in simple way, getting 2 charges of some spell... but not add % buffs or even more proc's in specific situations
They need to get rid of Seasons and bring the level cap back down to 60 and [REDACTED] keep it there.
I am all for people wanting to be the best they can be and all that, but when its all scripted for you by people and addons that have "done the math" so to speak, the game feels like its lost something.
Ah, the eternal cycle of switching between two extreme opinions in WoW community. Expansion-specific systems (artifact weapons, covenants)? Borrowed power, bad design! Evergreen systems that are supposed to last through expansions? Ability bloat, bad design!
When they introduced new talent tree, it was obvious that it would lead either to having more abilities over expansions or the return of boring passives like +5% crit. I like their approach to WW, they add more passive effects to existing abilities with some class fantasy flavor. I assume this will continue until Last Titan, then they will revisit the whole talent tree again.
And of course by then the community will be nostalgic for the times when new expansion meant completely new streamlined character progression system not this old and boring talent tree with 100 nodes and 20 buttons to press...
IMO hero talents seem like they would change how your class is themed which so far hasnt chsnged how classes are themed at all
I agree 100%. I think we've reached the maximum complexity in Dragonflight. If we add more things beyond that, it will become a burden to play. I want to have fun and not have to take a course to understand the functionalities. I had stopped at Shadowlands, and I returned to Dragonflight after a 2-year break. It was very difficult to digest everything after this break, and I still don't understand everything 100%. Besides the complexity of the talent tree, there's the complexity of professions, gear upgrades, crafted gear, various currencies, and so on. It was very difficult for me, even with 10 years of WoW experience; I can imagine it must be much harder and frustrating for a beginner. Dragonflight is already at a very high level of complexity. If WW becomes more difficult, it could be a problem.
Agree completely. I’m tired of the expansion gimmicks tbh. I feel that was my appeal from classic was there wasn’t any silly gimmick or borrowed power to worry about.
I don't think it makes a difference in the least if there is bloat or not when it comes to min-maxing. People min max because otherwise you don't get to experience the content at all. As an example: BFD in SoD was piss easy. BFD was doing one or two mechanics that are babies first mechanic and keeping up a 3 button rotation, it shouldn't require logs. People still parsed though and tried to check people for bad parses. It's not about clearing at that point, it's about creating an ingroup.
This compounds on itself (especially in retail) when considering people may not be able to participate on classes that are harder to play, even if it's their favourite class, because they might not contribute as much (thereby being relegated to the outgroup). There is no incentive to help the people in the outgroup, even incentive to not include them, and I think that is the worst thing about WoW atm for new players.
When I get asked about WoW irl and people ask about if I recommend the game to them I pretty much always suggest other games. The easy content in WoW is so easy it's boring (leveling, grinding worldquests, fishing etc) and the hard content has the ingroup/outgroup problem as well as a steep learning curve.
What I want to know is are the new hero specs just 1 for each already existing spec or can they combine with all the specs? for example the Dark Ranger.. is that just basically the new marksman hunter or can you be a Beast Master Dark Ranger.. or a Beast Master Pack Leader.. or a Marksman Pack Leader etc.
it’s a combination of two specs. It’s a triangle basically (square for druids). Dark ranger is BM + MM only
Bloat isn't the desease, it's the symptom.
Get rid of add-ons completely. The player should be able to get sweaty without *needing* to bring his own tools into the sandbox. Put dps/hps meters into the game by default, and allow players maximum control over their UI. Make boss mechanics easy to identify.
Honestly not hard.
But then max will cry that raids are too easy, and jack will cry that there is not enough for healers to flex