Fallout Talk - Is the wasteland "too civilized?"
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- Are the wastelands of Fallout getting too civilized?
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0:00 Intro
0:18 What's the theme?
1:54 A large nation a tamed future
3:15 War never changes
4:24 Final Thoughts - Ігри
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I blame fallout New Vegas’s NCR the legion is fine because it’s a tribal slave economy nation, the NCR is too pre war to my liking but the fallout TV will fix it.
@@Alex-pj8nzFallout TV show will flop
@@russianoverkill3715 You wish
If anything its not civilized enough
The game needs more civilizations and factions. In the original design for Fallout every raider group was a tribe with a name, identity, ideology and history, and while they were almost 100% cut out of the game due to time and budget, to me that's what Fallout should be like. Organized groups with actual identities. Not generic raiders and settlers, with the 99th BoS chapter thrown in for no reason.
This guy gets it
Why did the Vault 13 inhabitants become bone decorating degenerate tribals just 90 years after following the Vault Dweller? Are they dumb?
I give Bethesda a lot of passes for Fallout 3 as that game was so novel that 1950s Mad Max was great but by the time of Fallout 4 being post-New Vegas and Skyrim we really needed more depth. F4 is good enough that we care enough to complain about it.
@@klaykid117Also Washington DC is one of the most heavily nuked places in the Fallout universe, so naturally it would be a struggling region compared to the rural southwest which Mr. House partially saved.
What? I've never heard anyone complain the Wasteland is too civilized, but rather the opposite. Every complain I've heard is that it makes no sense people are still living in garbage.
who said that?
@@burritolopr Every single person who has any idea about Fallout when playing Fallout 4.
@@burritoloprI've been known to say this if that helps lol
@@burritoloprdefinitely me as well as other video creators on here
@@burritolopridiot redditors say that.
Civilisation in my Post Post Apocalypse? Sounds normal.
the wasteland being "too civilized" is a pretty bizarre complaint. if the setting moves far enough forward to the point of losing its post-apocalyptic feel you can just move back in the timeline to tell a different story.
Exactly! The world can and should be more civilized given that its been over 200 years since the end of the last civilization. That doesn’t mean it can't be dangerous either. There can still be areas with higher radiation, mutated animals, raiders and bandits, radstorms, etc. Those are things the civilizations will have developed with, so each one will have their own responses to them. *That* is an interesting component of the setting, not some diner full of skeletons and garbage that someone is inexplicably living in.
I don’t know how anybody could be concerned about that when it could just be earlier in the timeline like you said or just in a place that was set back for lore reasons. The institute wiping out the cpg was a poor execution though.
Plus it's the perfect launch pad for political upheaval to restore the lawlessness of the wastes, the wasteland creeping back into ostensibly civilised lands if you will.
An NCR civil war is a really cool idea which could take the post-post apocalyptic setting that is new california and make that the contrast to the desolate warzone that has become infested with raiders and feral ghouls due to constant warfare and a near total lack of law enforcement outside of the towns which have police and sheriffs.
Such a game would be the best of both worlds tbh, you could have that civilisation recovering vibe from NV and F02 in the towns and countryside far from the fighting as well as the post apocalyptic destruction and misery vibe from F03 and F04.
Plus a civil war plot line has a lot of potential for a good story. Who is fighting in this NCR civil war? What are their motivations? What are their political ideologies? What's the history leading up to the war?
This is also an opportunity for Bethesda to showcase their skill in environmental storytelling. Show us the contrast between the areas least affected by the conflict with the areas most badly affected. Show us how it has impacted people's lives.
After all a big theme of this series is how violence impacts people yet we still fall into it time and time again, hence "war, war never changes". Making that theme in particular a big narrative focus would be miles better than yet another post apocalyptic family drama.
I don't understand why Bethesda always has to progress the timeline forward if they have no interest in actually developing the post-apocalyptic world. The world of Fallout 2 already felt quite different from the world of Fallout 1, as it took place beyond the "wasteland" phase of the post-apocalypse and well into the "frontier" phase. If the NCR makes things too civilized for your taste, then the obvious solution is to set your Fallout story earlier in the timeline and/or elsewhere.
Fallout's setting has always been a fertile terrain for civilization, if I wanted more hopeless post-apocalyptic settings I'd look at stuff like The Road, not certanely Fallout
WHO ARE YOU ???
In Fallout New Vegas, the NCR is stretched too thin across the Mojave to effectively control their territory. Their expansionism is reaching a breaking point, and they have encountered an enemy force powerful enough to challenge them. Without the aid of an overpowered mailman, their chance of holding Hoover Dam is not the greatest.
Don't forget about how the NCR-Brotherhood war wrecked the economy. There's also the impact of Brahmin barons like Heck Gunderson go ruining smaller farmers. The official guide, while (probably) not canon, offers additional insight:
The Fallout Experience
05:57
"An added economic strain is the scarcity of salvageable goods. Sixty-five years of scavenging has done a good job of picking clean the wastes of what was once Southern California. Rare are those individuals who can make a living by scavenging and hunting what they need.
A consequence of these economic and cultural transformations has been the rebirth of wage labor. Whereas one's labor was until recently seen as benefitting Icon sic and belonging to a collective (whether a family or small town), it has now become a commodity. To earn their keep, many citizens must seek an employer and trade the sweat of their brow for Caps."
also the NCR still have the same problem Ceasar legion have and that is the speed of its communication.
as someone said the largest a empire can become is how far a message can go from one location to the next over 1-2 days.
if the mailman needs a week to send a messedge from a province to the capital that empire will not be stable.
the NCR can be larger the Ceasars but not by a lot.
No, the wasteland is too uncivilized and unorganized even though games are chronologically progress towards the future.
300+ years after nuclear apocalypse and most of the humans live like world ended 20 years ago, and the same time theres factions who have governments, laws, infrastructure, machinery etc. Its almost paradoxically uncanny. But that's Fallout is about, uncanny things.
When you look at our version of America it ain’t that different from fallout America lmao there’s a homeless epidemic, a drug crisis on the streets, guns are everywhere, corrupt leadership don’t do shit, etc
This is especially true for the Bethesda games. It's been 210 years, but people are still living in shacks - even in Boston, where most buildings from before the war are somehow perfectly intact. I think Bethesda prefer to focus on the general aesthetic of a 'post-apocalyptic' setting to believability. They demand a big set piece - like arriving in Diamond City, Megaton, Rivet City, that sort of thing - and everything else is subordinate to that. With that aesthetic preference they can't build more elaborate factions, because that would clash with the whole "everything's dirty and broken" vibe.
Fallout 4 and Fallout 76 are much more tame in terms of content than Fallout 3. They've leaned away from how bleak the wasteland is; you won't find child skeletons in Fallout 4 or Fallout 76, and no slavery either. There may be a near-copy of Megaton in Fallout 4, but there's no Paradise Falls and no Pitt. Instead of skeletons and corpses you find funny posed scenes with teddy bears and mannequins, and goofy creatures that seem to exist to give the player a brief giggle. So on the one hand they emphasize how broken the world is (with all the shacks, trash piles, people wearing rags, et cetera), but on the other hand they've made their games really tame, thematically speaking and in terms of writing. Those two things clash for me.
@@vulpesinculta3238 I honestly never understood how a majority of the buildings in the Commonwealth are completely intact, yet are rarely used. Boston itself is actually in remarkably good condition compared to D.C. and even New Vegas. And even when groups move into pre-war buildings, they for some reason choose the destroyed buildings 90% of the time. And people also somehow completely forgot about masonry, glass making, and proper carpentry after the great war, choosing to live in something I could put together at the age of 13.
Ultimately, I think this whole talk is a roundabout, tangential way to ask for two things: "aesthetic variation" and "show, don't tell."
The wastes have been affected by in different ways, before, during or after the war. Different people form different groups. So for things to *consistently* look ramshackle and scrappy becomes one-note visually, and puts more emphasis on the dialogue and notes to explain the people who inhabit them.
Were I to pull personal good and bad examples from both coastal settings:
Bad east coast case is Diamond City, particularly its "upper stands." It's been the central hub of the Commonwealth for over a century, yet hasn't seemed to improve its quality of construction since, even for its wealthy and influential upper class (except the guy with an indoor pool.) Piper even says the town used a bookcase as a wall patch in her lifetime, before she pushed for proper brick & mortar.
Good east coast case is Foundation and its outposts. A young community, but created by refugee construction teams, with the intent of being the base for their future generations. This means they have distinctive log structures, reinforced with metal plates, whereas Crater has the usual scrappy buildings.
Bad west coast case is Arroyo. This is leaning into an aesthetic to the point of pretty poor sense of progression - or regression, in this case. How a community established by Vault dwellers, led by one notably experienced, went to primitive mysticism in 80 years doesn't add up, nor the 180 it takes once they acquire the G.E.C.K..
Good west coast case is core Shady Sands. Adobe aesthetic they stick to throughout its advancement, a reminder of its humbler beginnings.
Bringing it back to what I said, there's nothing wrong with places becoming more "civilized" in these games. It's just important to have degrees and variations of communities, visually and narratively. Expecting everywhere to be NCR-lite is as limiting and dull as expecting everywhere to be Junktown.
Edit: Will say that Fallout's always had this on point with outfit designs, as they've more often been unique and varied.
Honestly I'm quite glad to find someone else who shares my thoughts so well, especially on Arroyo. The series needs variety if anything.
not civilized enough, the commonwealth 100% should be more NCR-like
The point is that it would of been if not for the institute or fall of the minutemen
@@Ghost1828 Honestly that's kinda a contrivance. It's their own setting so they could have developed the commonwealth to be anything they wanted.
The institute is just a way of explaining it away in this case, especially since they cut towns.
I mean, after 200 years since the Great War, is it really that far fetched to see civilization and order rebirth here and there?
Ngl but if your civilization’s still living in squalor after a hundred or 200 years plus then there’s very little hope. One of the things I like about Fallout 2 and New Vegas is how both the Legion and NCR are taming the wastes and have actual civilization. In the lore, they don’t live in shanty towns or scrap housing. It’s the post apocalypse not the apocalypse. REBUILD! One of the things I like about 4 is the Settlement System though I wish it was better.
I would say what's sadder than that is that without the nukes, NCR was just turned into something with Bethesda's tagging Raiders-style and "always has been".
No it’s the post post apocalypse.
Post
fallout is post post apocalypses not just postapoc tho its supposed to show society improve like FO1 and 2 or else you fail the setting showing societies recgrowth and decay through inevitable corruption was a thing on west but not east bc of bad writing from emil and not knowing what the game is abt
New Vegas definitely felt like a sendoff to Fallout 1 and 2’s storyline, 3 and 4 feel like a different universe.
Especially with what little progress is made from Fallout 3 to 4, I would welcome Bethesda to try to write a more civilized wasteland, but it seems like they don’t want to do that, and just reset the world every game, except for what little they want to bring over, like MacCready.
From it's roots, Fallout has always been about how civilizations developed after the fall of mankind.
90% of the old games take place in towns and around people, hell even in tactics and that game is just combat.
Currently, as others had stated, Fallout isn't civilized enough.
In Fallout 4 people are still living like it has only been like 10/20 years after the war, no hope, constant despair.
While in reality most wastelanders should at least have a grasp at living in basic rural societies or adapted into tribal life.
For me I feel the opposite, fallout isnt civilized enough, they keep pushing the timeline further but everyone's still stuck in the past. If they wanna maintain the fresh apocalypse vibe then set the game in the past, I like fallout not just for the wasteland, but how humanity rebuilds from the wasteland. Plus fallout will get old super fast if every game keeps every part of the country stuck like the bombs just dropped, only so many times you can set it there and can only use the "well we tried to make a government but [insert plot convenient excuse] prevented us from doing so" excuse before it gets old. Id rather have more fallout games be like new vegas than like fallout 3 or 4
To me it seems pretty clear that Bethesda is afraid of experimenting and losing the idea of the games being "Fallout-ey", but they also don't seem to have a grasp on what it means for a game to be Fallout, so instead they keep the setting frozen in time, with Super Mutants and the Brotherhood of Steel all over the place.
Where we are in the timeline, civilization is to be expected. We're in the post post apocalypse era of Fallout as of Fallout New Vegas. Prior to Fallout 1 makes sense to have it be uncivilized for the most part. But now is a time for civilization to grow and expand when we are almost 300 years since the bombs dropped.
I always liked the mods whee you can make changes in the locations so this can be filled with memeber from one faction or another, that feeling of expansion and that not everything will always be abandoned
Well, if it ever was too civilized before, it definitely ain't anymore after Todd's latest run at it...
I think the origin of this complaint, really, is just that people don't grasp how long 200 years is. 200 years ago, people were just figuring out steam powered trains and discovering dinosaurs. The War really shouldn't be looming so large over the stories of Fallout 200 years later.
The better solution would have been to set Fallout 3 and 4 further back in the timeline- Fallout 3 should have been right after the war. Realistically, they could have kept everything but the Brotherhood of Steel if Fallout 3 were contemporaneous with 1 instead of being 200 years later.
nah it's not enough it's been 200 years and cars aren't even drivable but we have planes and trains...? and people have the knowledge and skill to mess with nuclear fission?
like WHAT?
i mean you can get a car in fallout 2 but yeah its kinda odd
There are drivable car(s) [Fallout 2]
@@kevalyarathore223 in fallout 2 the isometric top down game where it literally only exists for a slightly faster exploration speed? how bout this? why dont we see cars more than a once off gimmick?
@@H4L0GUY117 You said "people don't have drivable cars"
I gave you an instance of drivable car....
In NV you can see a wrecked highwayman which was clearly driven after the war. So your "one-time gimmick" argument is not valid.
If you want to drive cars in a fallout game, just look at the engine they use. A mere glimpse at TES horses should tell you that it's very difficult to include vehicles in the engine.
@@kevalyarathore223 you see the first guy who replied? he got what i meant also no one is doubting they had cars after the bombs but aside from 2 they're not even really mentioned so your point is moot also the engine is fine if a modder can add cars to new vegas in their spare time a multi billion dollar gaming company can definitely manage it in the years they take to develop games they just don't want too so dont give the whole engine can't handle it also don't give me the wrecked highwayman in new vegas bs either because that wasn't bethesda they wouldn't have put that in the game if they were developing it
What are you talking about? If anything we nees mire civilization in the wastelands
New Vegas always felt a post post apocalypse to me.
The west coast may be civilized but from the Rockies to most of east coast that is all free real estate with very little civilization being notable at this time. That is also prime for more story telling.
Well, you could argua that they are taking that into account for the fallout tv series as it will be et in california en 2296 or somewhere around that time, and it seems they got rid of the NCR in their own turf.
Maybe we can get an answer into what actually happened in the mojave and that could be the reason why the NCR crumble so harshly, but idk, I still am going to watch the show tho.
Remember kiddos, the original meaning of the title ‘fallout’ was that it was about dealing with the outcomes (fallout) of your decisions.
Something to keep in mind for this question is; what is Fallout doing? Fallout shows the world fall into ruin and then presents the obvious question of what will humanity do. And the player can answer that question in two broad ways. To try and rise from the ashes or accept the world as ruined and keep it that way. The player can cause the NCR to be build or destory Shady Sands.
Fallout New Vegas just presents another question. Will humanity repeat the mistakes that lead them to ruin? Which the player answers.
I do think in general the Fallout games are actually rather optimistic given the circumstances of the post-war world. But I do agree with most that it's nonsensical that people on the east coast can't be bothered to even clean the dirt and skeletons out of their residences.
New Vegas I think is about as civilized a Fallout game should be, though. Infact I'd love to see more games set in the timeframe of the first Fallout or 76. Preferably with better writers.
The 2100s really are an under-explored time if you ask me. Imagine being able to witness the chaos and brutality of the early post-war world first hand [Something I felt 76 really should've capitalized on.], or explore a setting where society is undergoing the rocky transition from city states to nations towards the later half of the century.
We need more civilization and factions! Thats the most interesting part about fallout… seeing how POST-Apocalypse people grow and build in the ruins
One of the best things to come out of Fallout 4, was the table top game’s lore that lists 5 other large groups that used to be around in the Commonwealth but are gone in the actual game.
A mobile casino mob boss faction!
A group of warrior women who are dedicated to helping everyone!
Several cities that rival Diamond City!
I think an aspect I find weird is the idea that the common wealth, despite noticable progress from able to restore power, make crude batteries, communities rebuilding some people still appear to be living in shanty huts. Also, there is no real inbetween of weapons that look to be prewar factory made and pipeguns, like there are no forges, you think with more organization, you think there are more professionally built weapons like more revolvers and lever actions. However able to build wells, engines, purifiers and even able to farm is a good sign of progress.
In fallout new vegas, I was always confused to see vertibirds but no semblance of workshops of fixing up cars, though seeing shanty shacks with refrigerators as windows but no adobe structures.
You think after the amount of extensive organization you see more? Also, in Fallout new vegas, the Courier in old world blues mentions watching TV.
Though too civilized, I heard plenty of complaints of people saying fallout 4 is not depressing enough like, not everyone is entering a battle royal for a scrap of food.
Fallout Obi-Wan in an judgmental voice: "So civilized."
Personally, I love the contrast between New Vegas's "post post-apocalyptic" setting with the more lawless settings in the East Coast. I truly believe that there is at least one Fallout game that will provide the perfect environment for almost any type of gamer.
??? If anything, I typically hear the exact opposite complaint(like a LOT). That being how Fallout 1 & 2 were about a POST apocalypse world in the process of really beginning to rebuild centuries later... only for bethesda to come and insist on making everything look like the bombs fell all of a few months ago, at most. As if they weren't so much "nukes" as "magic lamination bombs".
To quote Warlockracy, " war never changes does not mean people commited mistakes in war but it means people bring conflicts wherever they go"
There is nobody that decides to be a Fallout fan and immediately say it's bad at the one thing it literally gets so right. The Wasteland is HORRIFIC 💀
I love how the moment he brings up criticiques of Obsidians part of Fallout for being too civilized its immediately alright that its overtly civilized 😂😂😂
I wish the fallout series had some sort of a “final game” that takes place in an area between the big nations that developed, and allow the player to decide what happens to the final pocket of wasteland, or to just destroy everything again, though something like that would never get made by Bethesda, unless they planned on rebooting the series afterwards
Of coarse! “Fallout” as an experience and an identity falls within a parameters of what it can and can’t be. That being immediately after nuclear annihilation and just before some semblance of before it happened is regained. Where “fallout” is all about the actions and experiences that would take place on the road to getting to that end parameter. But here’s another question for you.
Does “fallout” have to LOOK a certain way to BE “fallout”? Does it have to have a certain aesthetic to be what it is? For example. My biggest gripe is that 4 looks too childish and isn’t the embodiment of the nuclear apocalypse like I think it would be. It’s almost “childish” in look. While I HEAVILY approve of the “look” of 3/new Vegas it looks ugly, gritty and gross. Which I think perfectly embodies the game and its identity. So is there an argument that the game also has to LOOK a certain way to also be “fallout”?
Well its been 200 years since the bombs fell. 220 by the time the show takes place. I do believe it would be difficult to not have at least one functioning nation by this point. Perhaps the Fallout show can show up the fall of NCR and other small blossoming nations.
Balkanization of California lol
For me Fallout was never about the apocalypse, it was the passage of time but human nature staying the same. The tamming of the wasteland and new nations waging war IS the theme of Fallout.
People think that Civilizations are too fragile, they are not. They just adapt to their enviroment. The Roman Empire survived up until the Reinassance, the term Byzantine was coined later by people that wanted to divide the Christian Medieval Roman Empire with its Classical Pagan iteration, seriously people up until 1900s in some regions still referred themselves as roman.
Even in Fallout the US is not truly gone, it survives in the Enclave and successor States like the NCR.
I think 2 and New Vegas show that even a completely tamed wasteland is still rife for "Fallout". I imagine they would not spend so long setting up the NCR only to have it go up in flames.
Your thumbnail for this is fantastic
NO! Gimme my post-post-apocalyptic westerns! I’m sick of Bethesda’s Mad Max shooting galleries!
It’s only been two hundred years and the memory of the old world is alive and well.
No it's now it fine, wastelands are usually fairly populated in media like mad max, walking dead, daysgone, book of eil, or the road.
Now note I never got to the original games (dreading to deal with turn base combat) but have brief idea what happens, and skipped 3 and 4 but watched a play through to get a brief idea of the story. Yeah I only played New Vegas due to being the only one that really both caught my attention but had game play I generally can enjoy.
To me Fallout games are Fantasy stories but instead of knights kingdoms and dragons, it has a 60ish post nuclear apocalypse skin to tell the story it wants to.
It never was about the struggles of surviving the apocalypse, game play or story, the civilizations are small but existent. Nations are doomed to collapse, just when and how is unknown, everyone kinda relies on a wanderer to fix their problems, including the ones threatening the entire status quo of people's livelihoods.
Really what always bugged about the setting is how long everyone has been at it and everyone is still using scraps. Because realistically, if we have gun manufacturers at the point of new Vegas, we should have people making other resources, and all the destroyed busses and buildings should be gone, minus the irradiated areas, and have been used to restore civilization to a new era.
But its a skin, a aesthetic as you will, so in the end, its still a fantasy story but in a dessert and with guns. Its fun, but the wasteland is just a title that can hold up as much or as little to its name. So it can't be really too civilized or too chaotic no matter what as long as it can still tell its story, which means no one's ever going to ever truly fix their problems, again like most fantasy stories.
You are on a quest, not a struggle for survival.
In my opinion; if they kept sticking to the eras of the wasteland where the nations are still growing, say setting a game in the same year as fallout 1 but in a different state or country, you can easily avoid the issue of civilizing the wasteland. Also that too, if America is getting to civilized, move on to other countries like Canada, Mexico, South America, etc.
But no, American developers only think America is interesting, even though half of it is a desert, or a forest, something Mexico and Canada have as well... Although heard from some folks that was the intention of the first two game's writing, to point out that flaw in the American's viewpoint of the world, and how hostile it was to it's neighboring countries, so maybe that's the reason as well...
Yep, I would like to see an atom-punk version of Poland/Czechoslovakia. A lot of potential here.
@@ondrejreichl5866 Oh shit that's be awesome!
i would love a post- post-fallout type setting not because fallout should change but it would give an interesting take on post-post fallout. when nations start talking and civilization is back on its feet. mostly to see the hope and how humanity evolves after it. I get the Wild West/fall of Rome ideas of being a hero but it means little if their isn't progress. it could be a second series and run a hundred years or a thousand after the great war etc. but the advancements and old grievances you would see could be more interesting than the petty squabbles between the NCR, Ceasers legion, Brotherhood of Steel or institute . and you can have them run together in the real world like alternate every other game. it's not bad to see a post world war 3 civilization. it would also just be different
I dont think that the Wasteland in Fallout is too civilized. Makes sense that humanity will try to rebuild, and they will try to use ideas that kinda worked in the past. However the difference is that this time the foundation on which this ideas will be applied will be more fragile and prone to collapse. So any attempt to recover what humanity lost or even worse, progress will be limited.
Each faction has its own shortcomings. The real interesting part is too see them struggle and fight. Trying to build a better future, even if thats highly unlikely.
absolutely in a post-apocalyptic world gathering resources such as water and food should be an absolute struggle not even mentioning Having trustworthy people that you can interact with Without fear
Not civilized enough.
It makes some sense people would begin to try and crawl into post-apoc
I mean a problem people have with fallout is that the series was always about post post apocalypse, was always about society rebuilding itself and while some advances are made, it repeats the same mistakes of the old days, its a study and a reflection about american history, thats why fallout, in my humble opinion needs factions, needs tribes civilizations and city states, it was made to have them so to discuss its themes, like you said theres no thing as a nation getting too big is about if they can hold this peace.
besides lets be honest fallout being the same struggle for survival gets boring real quick, fallout 3, 4 and 76 for instance
In my opinion, New Vegas gets it right. It's a WW1/WW2 level nation fighting, and struggling, against an army of tribals. The NCR is likely gonna fall apart due to the plethora of internal issues (potential food shortages, government corruption, economic instability, etc) The wasteland is still deadly in many places! The NCR still has raider bands in their territory, wildlife is abundant and dangerous throughout the Mojave, the Legion being a massive hostile force to most in the Mojave, and the biggest threat... Hunger and Thirst.
I think the biggest example of "too civilized" in Fallout has to be the Commonwealth. Namely, the Institute with their pre-war or beyond level of technology. Nothing screams post-apocalypse like an underground society of scientist with floors as sterile and empty as the faction is interesting. Give them teleportation and synths, and boom! Too distant to what Fallout is, in my opinion. Throw in the BoS with an airship that acts as a mobile war base, and make the entirety of the Minuteman quest about making a third of the map a settlement to the point you are effectively, and personally, creating the Commonwealth Provisional Government.
Personally, I have no issue with nations popping up, so long as they are smaller in scale. Allow the Commonwealth to be it's own small republic with its own agenda. The East Coast BoS could damn near qualify as a small militaristic dictatorship, and the Pitt could have been the seat of, and possibly still could be, an Industrial powerhouse! Hell, a revitalized Pitt could be an interesting plot point of a future fallout game. The BoS fighting the CPG for control of it! That kind of industry would be a boon to both factions agenda.
In summary, if the next Fallout is going to avoid the label of being too civilized, they need to stick to a more "salvaged" society, untamed wilderness, and the survival aspect of both gameplay and story. They can have nations rise, but don't make them 80's scifi like how I feel the Institute was.
Deacon has a line about the brotherhood controlling the DC area that I've seen people read as the east coast brotherhood turning into Prussia, whcih I think has interesting potential.
@@kingofhearts3185How are they Prussia? I'm not very knowledgeable on them.
@@SUPERBILLY3D Basically Prussia began when the Teutonic knights returned from the middle eastern crusades and launched the Livonian Crusade against the last pagans in europe, mainly in modern Kaliningrad and Lithuania. Much like in the middle east, they created a crusader state on the baltic coast. Except this one managed to last for centuries.
To bring it back to fallout, think of the DC area as Livonia and super mutants as the pagans. Plus they administered hospitals back in the holy land, so project purity also aligns with that idea.
Initially the Prussians found opposition from Poland-Lithuania and later from the Austrians. Whether or not those same expansion limiting pressures are found in Boston is up to you as the player.
It's the end of the old Wild West
I'm not worried about it at all
I think the gigantic gap between fallout 4 and the still hypothetical 5 means that it doesn't matter.
But let's imagine bethesda was sold off, stripped for parts, and a non-Western dev team got ahold of the IP, and decided to make money from a new edition.
What do?
Well, there's a huge world out there. There's ancient cities, the horrors of the giantic glasslands where China was, the depths of the seas where mutant whales, kraken, and elder abominations vie for supremacy. There's the many space stations twtiching in their orbits, the alien bases on mars and pluto, the lost space colony ship and it's restless not dead crew.
There's a lot you can do with
a) radiation and other environmental hazards - Mars and space are essentially higher level versions of the Glowing Sea.
b) rebuilding a civilisation - going over to europe or australia, you could take people knocked back to the stone age and build them up to a high tech civ
c) war with the aliens - that is something that was going on quietly for thousands of years - maybe it's time to take it to their home grounds?
We've never had underwater combat, or rules for what armor could work, or perks that could be aquired, to let you survive the shallow sea, maybe right down to the abyssal darkness.
Maybe you need to base build to defend against natural predators, then later attacks by the feral hordes that have located you as fresh meat, and ultimately the Deep Ones. Do you join the cult, sacrificing humanity for personal power? Seek allies amongst enraged cetaceans, furious that the world of their ancestors was ruined by yours? Do you become one with the machine, removing body parts for upgrades necessary for the surival of yourself and even humanity? Do you embrace the mutation, and warp into something ugly and unnerving?
Organic? Machine? Both? Neither? The quick path to power or the slow path to grace?
And what friends and lovers could you make along the way?
I feel like somewhere in between 3 and NV is a sweet spot. 4 almost felt too uncivialized by comparison. There were a lot of people and factions and yet, outside of diamond city which was underwhelming even by Fo3 standards its pretty uninhabited. There should be more functional groups and small to medium sized towns becuase thats how people actually survive in the wasteland. I liked the idea of the minutemen but the fact that theyre defunct in 2287 is kinda dumb. I dont wanna be a general, I wanna be a random person in a game world that makes a difference in a series of events. I hope fallout 5 is closer to fallout 3 than 4, it just had a better vibe, or maybe a more oppressive vibe that actually made the struggle of survival for the people in the capitol wasteland feel more appreciable. Last but not least, Bethesda really needs to get off the brotherhoods balls, try something new for once, learn what actual player choice is or at least stop trying to fake it.
To play devils advocate. I think many people would rather have Prequels but in some sepreate area. Kind of Like Fallout 76. But singlepayer. Like anchorage, Louisana fuck even early Pittsburgh before becoming A slave hellhole.
its actualy not civilized enough from tv show clips ncr decline after NV hit hard but that makes sense a 2 front war will do that to a country whatever the ghosts in baha were they took there toll
You are telling me that noone would try to make something civilised after 200 years?
I don’t want it to be the year 3 and see the wasteland still being a shit hole but that’s just me. I would rather see societies collapse and rebuild while adopting to their new environment. If they’re so concerned about this than they should set the newer games in the past
I think it's the opposite issue. By Fallout 1 civilization was slowly rebuilding and by Fallout 2 there were very advanced settlements. Things being so horrible on the east coast makes no sense to me, especially since the east coast games take place nearly 30 YEARS after 2, which saw the wasteland being more civilized. Fallout is (or was) about seeing humanity recover from nuclear war. From what we've seen in the fallout TV show, I assume the NCR is either falling apart or is gone, which to me feels like it ruins the point of all of the west coast games. It's been nearly 200 years since the great war, and civilization should have of rosen from the ashes at this point. Destroying the NCR for the sake of "it's fallout it has to be lawless wasteland!!!!" is stupid, especially when the easiest fix is just having new things be set earlier in the timeline.
The essence of Fallout lies in the struggle for survival and the rebuilding of civilization amidst the ruins of a post-apocalyptic world. Games like Fallout 1 and 2 exemplify this by portraying smaller communities striving to carve out safety and order in the wasteland. The moment the fallout games stop being about rebuilding civilization is the day they stop being fallout games.
The fallout setting needs more factions of similar size as the NCR, not fewer. We need to see that the efforts in rebuilding civilization is working.
I think this is the main reason why the NCR has been whiped out in the Fallout 76. NCR was far 2 advanced for the wasteland. Also, caps still need to be relevant in the Fallout franchsie, something that F2 made away with. So for the sake of the wasteland being maintained, the NCR needs 2 die.
Bethesda design ethos is to make games that anyone can play, they need there to be lots of places to buy and sell your junk or the game isnt beginner friendly enough. majority of non rpgs have lots of cities and people therefore...
Actually it should be MORE civilized seeing as it has been 200+ years
Just watching the introduction makes me realize most of the fallout community hasn’t played fallout one or two. Humanity has been working its butt off to make the desert survivable.
My biggest problem with the fallout live action is the fact the NCR had a functioning government with working utilities, and multiple branches of military with an Air Force and Navy yet everything is destroyed.
And most of this argument is just if we keep making games progress will they stop being post apocalyptic in setting?…
My brother in Christ, did ever occur to you to make a video game at an earlier time. Like why don’t we go back to the time frame of fallout three, but in Texas or literally any other state that hasn’t been explored yet?
Not anymore in 2296, Shady Sands got nuked so the brotherhood will bring law and order to the NCR.
But...
...thats the whole point...
Alot about the subplots of Fallout 1 & 2 is about the Vault Dweller and Chosen One inadvertently helping to rebuild civilisation...
Fallout New Vegas continues this, too; with Mr. House actively trying to build the Free Economic Zone of New Vegas, with plans of going to space again!
Its only Bethesda Fallout, the dumb-person's Fallout, that wants to perpetually keep "Fallout" in this post-apocalyptic "iconic" (urgh, that word is so overused!) setting; rather then try to advance the story and show a world being rebuilt. Even though, as New Vegas showed... there's still "Post-Apocalypse" themes in a world thats rebuilt to "old western" times but with more technology...
Even Star Trek showed stories in this context...
Bethesda just doesn't have the ability to write a story on-par with 60's Star Trek writers... 🤣
Another point Bethesda doesn't have the ability to handle, is the concept of "History Repeating"...
Even with the NCR growing into a massive nation, and the opposing Caesar's Legion... even if Peace was brokered; circumstances akin to America's Independence from the British, to the American Civil War could occur again, and topple any fledgling nation attempting to grow...because the conflicts of the past, are always repeated...
...after all... "War never changes".
One could argue they did this in Fallout 4...but it was so terribly implimented, that it ment nothing, because there was no real story investment too it to the player. Again I say, I just don't think Bethesda has the talent to handle concepts like this, and impliment them in a way that the PLAYER then feels invested in it, too.
When you look at New Vegas...
The entire FEZ was doing just fine living and surviving in a frontier lifestyle without the NCR or CL in their midst for over a century...towns like Goodsprings were fine. Their wants and needs were pretty well tended too, and any technology they had, was used to help the town.
Stories envolving more wastelands like that, show a "frontier" that doesn't need a major city or government to support it... but there's stories there that could be told. Like, for example, that a coalition of towns support each-other through trade, but the Trade Caravans are getting attacked...
Maybe its an outside force... maybe its one of the communities... maybe "player 3 has entered the game"... but there's ways to develop a story to that.
...ofcourse, what would I know...
Its just what I do running original Fallout or "post-apocalyptic setting" TTRPG's...
It's kinda like how in some works of fiction, there is a side-character who is a child, and even though the story itself spans many years and goes through multitude of changes, that character is always, always a child, they don't let the child grow up because they believe audiences are too attached to the way the character is, but in doing so they are making that character static, even though everything else is changing, literally keeping them a child when they should be in their teens or something.
I enjoy the development we see in some games but I definetly prefer the rough wasteland, Fallout 3, Fallout 4 to a degree, Frost, Fallout 1. And I'll say my favorite fallouts are the bethesda ones (I know blasphemy here, burn me with pitchforks and all that), but I do wish that the developers, any of them, would stop constantly pushing the timeline further and instead make games set in different regions at various points in time, like Seattle 70 years after the war, New Orleans 120 years after, Florida only 50 years after, Alaska 20 years after, or Ohio 200 years after. things can happen parralel to the other stories in other regions without affecting those other regions and without the need to affect the current status of other factions like the NCR
1:52 No.
Yes lol
They are to the OG Devs what the BOS is to Bethesda. In some ways perhaps the cynical view Chris Avellone has about nuking the NCR has some merit if the later games intends for you to have ex-enclave soldiers side with them
I think you need both sides hear, I love how destroyed everything is but in say the fallout 4 sense, why is everyone living in literal filth? And not trying to fix stuff. Ik it’s a post apocalyptic sense but really some of this is just wack, like for example I love good springs everything is reasonable clean and not broken down and the town looks like a actual town instead of say sanctuary no matter how much you try the place just looks so unpleasant to live in I’d rather have Lexington and slowly work with the MM to restore power fix old houses and build on what there already. That’s more satisfying to do in fallout 5 specifically because you are watching a young nation be born
Games just shouldnt progress that much in time... Formation of nations, major wars bethween them and unifivation /civilization is just a natural way the wasteland would progress.
What sense have games that progress 200 or 300 years into the future? How real is it for you to find an locker abandoned since war and get a working gun with ammo?
Would it be better to have a game plaved for example around hub during it formation? 2092 was it? Caravan wars formatuon of just small civilization and wasteland all around it? Not all games need to have epic endings that everybody in the wasteland would remember like destroying the master or that would have impact on future games. For me a great example is fallout sonora (fallout 2 mod). Another great example is a game set in new reno before events of fallout 2.
Theres no reason both types of games cant exist in the franchise, especially with how big the US was in fallout world, having conquered Canada and Mexico
Honestly I’m cool the idea that one side of the USA is a bit more “civilized” but on the other side things are “topsy-turvy”. Some states took a terrible hit from the bombs and others aren’t that bad. I love the adventures on the East Coast for a game but I would NOT want to live there. The wendigos man. I’m not dealing with that lol 😂
It looks like Bethesda already solved the "NCR" problem by nuking them off in the TV series! and replace them with good old BOS
🤮
That's sad
Blud did NOT watch the newest trailer
The NCR can be seen having a battle with the BOS, it’s a little had to identify them but the NCR flag is being carried by a soldier
@@monarchschwoop52They just made Minutemen 2.0 out of the NCR, demoted once a thriving civilization to just a Guerrilla fighter.
@@mojahedrudainee2209Once proud and thriving civilization that would’ve 100% lost a battle against Roman LARPers if it wasn’t for a mailman’s help. And they still have their best soldiers protect a bunch of cow farmers instead of their own roads too!
Im going to say this the USA+Canada+Alaska+Mexico is bit really big.
ods are that no new nation anytime soon will be able to colonize and civilise all that land (even if the nation don't fall/collapse on there own).
So ods are and I sort of want to see that a Fallout game that begins whit the player living and raised in civilized land then decided to make a name for themself or something.
to set out there on there own or as part of a larger group out beyond there nations borders (NCR for the west or Minutemen/commonwealth for the east post fallout4) or what Washington DC would become in 50-100 years or so post fallout3.
set out and be hit whit the reality that there is an almost infinity more work to be done, whit local raiders and what ever other faction that have formed.
and then take it from there. explore new lands, find new tech and relics find a forgotten dooms date weapon that might risk there home nation if it falls into the wrong hand (note this is not the whole NCR getting nuked not needed but the border towns and cities getting wiped and the shockwave that would send).
by default of course yes
Bro it’s meant to be tame as it’s been 200 YEARS. Just move the frontier further into other states. Or just set it further back in time.
In the case of Bethesda’s sh** Fallout the problem is the wasteland isn’t tame enough.
I just want the Enclave to return and make America Beautiful and Powerful again lol 😂
The waste land isnt diverse enough
dude what the hell are you talking about
If Bethesda set the timeline 25 years or less since the bombs fell then sure. But 200 years later anyone not living in some sort of governed community is absolutely pathetic.
truth is, fallout 1 and bethesda fallout is truly post-apocalyptic, all the other games are post-post-apocalyptic.
I think they tried to mke 3 and 4 too much like 1 despite it being 200 years. Not helped by the fact that people aren't even cleaning out the skeletons in their own homes, I can see why people hate their world design. If those games were set 50-100 years after the war I don't think it would have been as much of a problem. Only 2 and NV really hit the post-post part right.
Boston is a shit hole in fallout 4 what drugs are you on 😂
Really the west should be a semi modern
yes it is
The premise of fallout is already pretty dumb, if you know how real fallout from nukes work. It doesn’t work how the games portray it. So who really cares, it’s just a game. Bethesda it’s versions are utterly boring and crap, adding those annoying garbage supermuants everywhere where even if they don’t fit in the setting and given a trash excuse to why they are there. Same goes for the damned stories of 3 and 4 the same damned story but with the protagonist swapped. Going from child looking for parent, to parent looking for child. Yes in game design reusing assets is a thing, but reusing the same damned story?! Todd and that fake writer that isn’t even fit to mop bathroom floors are two people that should be fired from bethesda.
☝️🤓
Yes but 3 writing is shit i love the game but phucs the looorrreeee
200 years after the bombs, you'd expect a lot more civilization. multiple generations have lived within the post-war world at this point, and you're telling me most people are still living in ruins or shanty towns? similarly to shady sands, proper towns would have been built up at this point.
Fallout 4 seems to me a solid balance of context and content for a post apocalypse
but I feel Falllout 76 is guilty of terrible self parody, wasted content and misrepresentation
I call it "Nuka-World the Game" its a Game within a Game within a Game.
further demonstrating advanced sarcasm and abuse of the concept of Meta
someone at Bethesda thinks theyre very funny , ha ha funny apocalypse