Women Should Be Silent? Sexism in the Bible - Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle
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- Опубліковано 4 лют 2025
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Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle run the extremely popular online Christian ministry @givemeananswer
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Thanks so much for pressing this question and bringing your own research to the matter. I love to hear Atheists thoughtfully engaging in the matter with Christians, and these Christians did a superb job allowing you to speak and listening to you. We need more across-the-isle conversations like these.
I agree, I greatly respect christians and atheists that are able to not be immature and respect each others viewpoints. So rare nowadays on both sides for conversations to not devolve into shouting, insults, interruptions, etc
Alex isn’t an atheist lol
@@1nOnlyKong he is
I like how instead of answering the question the pastor says Moses believes in one God . But .... Aaron the prophet Moses brother said ...exudus 32 4 kjv theese be thy gods oh Israel that brought thee up out of the land of Egypt..... deuteronomy 32 kjv 8 when the Most High God devided the nations their inheritance when he separated the sons of Adam he set the bounds of the people according to the noumber of the children of israel 9 and the Lord's portion is his people Jacob is the lot of his inheritance... lol why have a most high God if there is only one God and i notice a 2end God inheriting from the most High God called the Lord . 2 God's
@@1nOnlyKong he indeed is an atheist
I suspect you mean because he’s “agnostic” but those two terms are not mutual exclusive. Agnosticism is about admitting you don’t know, whereas atheism just means you do not actively believe in a god.
So an agnostic atheist (like nearly all atheists including Alex) doesn’t believe/isnt convinced that god is real, but admits they do not know
If you can tell the bad bits from the good bits in the bible, you don't need the holy book to guide your morals and truths.
How do you know what you believe is good actually is good and what you believe is bad is actually bad? Does good and bad exist? How do you know?
@@schneak5248if something is considered good but I can think of it as morally bad..... I don't need the holy book to consider it bad.....i already have some daemon that can tell apart good from bad ....... I mean this book is saying slavery is good , do u really consider it to be standard of morality???
@@schneak5248I and I imagine op tend to base these things on what helps/hurts people more or less.
@@schneak5248 you think any of these people commenting "dunks" on the bible have given any thoughts to moral realism? wishful thinking
@@schneak5248good and bad don’t exist
That’s explicitly why you don’t need a book to guide your morals, you can just make up your own, if you even want any
"Is the Bible sexist?"
Short answer: yes
Long answer: yes, it is.
Love it😂 I’m beyond tired of seeing these dingle taints circle around what is blatantly in their book
😂 brilliant long answer.
That doesn't even grammatically make sense? Given what the question is
@@abcdefzhij I was thinking that too. Is it like a joke I"m not getting?
short answer no its not and it is mimics Gods authority over man and we play that role in church and home with man and wife
I've only seen bits of this conversation. But I'm happy to see it happened. Thank you Alex for having these two on. I'm a Christian and it's great to see this dialog taking place.!
Whatever makes moral sense today and is mentioned in the Bible is taken at face value. Whatever doesn't make sense is immediately interpreted.
Jesus famously spok in parables, and said stuff that he knew the other people thought just like with the good teacher lines He's not saying he's not God he's saying he's not just a teacher.
@omariwashington2570 the problem is not the parables themselves, it's how you choose to interpret them.
If they are directly saying something that is considered moral today, it is not being interpreted and is taken as is.
If it's something that's considered questionable or immoral, then it's completely spun around till it can be swallowed.
AND, "women are not permitted to teach men IN CHURCH" makes sense!
Exactly😊
@Lord.alucarD is that hard to understand why? Its spun around and swallowed until it is understood like the other ones taken at face value, your coming from the basis that the bible is untrue which is why you come to that conclusion. The people who interpret have to research and discuss a certain topic amongst scholars, which is then decided on
He was like “well they should be silent cuz they’ll disrupt the church” sexism explained with sexism love it
As a longtime believer in Jesus as the Messiah, I cannot state how deeply I appreciate you, Alex. I am so grateful for the questions you ask and who you ask them to, but I deeply admire your study of the texts I consider to be holy. You seem to have such a pure heart and although I end up at a different conclusion than you do about Jesus and God, you set such an example to all of how to approach these issues and these texts. The world would be a better place if everyone could engage with each other like you do. Thank you for doing what you do.
Bible is cooked here, be honest, stop your fake praise of Alex🤮🤡😄😂😊
@ in short, supernatural things happened that I could not explain. After they did, I ended up looking for explanations and found several things in an NET bible that had exact words and things that I had heard and seen in my experiences. I used to be someone who actively opposed people saying the kind of things I’m saying now.
@A_Singular_Goblin_Mage I was, but I always viewed my parents as foolish and unwilling to think critically about almost any part of their life, but especially of their faith. I knew the stories they told but never had any kind of personal connection with anything religious until adulthood. I would sit in the back of my church group and harshly judge (in my own mind and heart, not verbally) the kids and adults who appeared to truly believe the stuff and engage with it.
@A_Singular_Goblin_Mage unfortunately, at this point it’s anecdotes vs anecdotes. But I have no way to refute what you’re saying. In fact, I would argue the majority of people who go to Christian churches in my area of Texas 1) have not experienced like that, 2) really don’t even know a lot of what is in the Bible and 3) don’t understand a lot of what they do know is in there.
@A_Singular_Goblin_Mageone of the reasons conversions in adulthood happen not because of logical reasons, but because of how compelling a religions practices are to the converts existing beliefs. I do think your explanation is very plausible in any scenario though
The look between the two guys at 8:38 is basically like they're saying: _"This makes sense, but there's no way in hell I'm going to open this can of worms and agree with him!"_ 🤣
That was an incredible look
Or maybe because he made a false claim those verses were added when we know they were not and we have proof in oldest manuscripts and they both knew it?
@@ivamatosich If this was the case then it would have made more sense for these guys to just say that! And the fact that they answered the question suggests that this is not the case..
@@JoeBob79569 they both studied Bible they know that 100%, I got that from their body language and expression:they knew
@@ivamatosich Then why didn't they just say it? You're avoiding the question. I'm not well-versed on the scripture but from all the sexist verses I have read, I have chosen not to believe. Either way, they could have just said it, it's a forum of discussion, he isn't restricted from saying it clearly, then why?
The bible doesn't say what it says, and if it does, that's not what it meant.
Bingo and there is a really good reason for that too... involving how exactly would one separate the humble from the proud? If it were me I would word things in a way where the arrogant would go off accusing me and the humble would ask me for more understanding because one thing we all KNOW is true: humble people wait and gather more information, and arrogant people: jump to accuse.
God really is a genius.
@@44ARISEandSHINE44.Humble people don't claim to know the answer to life.Its only fools who say they know
@@JohnJohn-cu7nkwell if you are truly humble, then you would know that you can’t “claim” the answer to life. This commenter hit it spot on, the humble ones wait and ask! And humility is KNOWING that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, which is where we would lead people too, not claim. I also don’t get the impression that any person here claims the answer, they guide, and TEACH. I hope this helps your perspective. God bless you.
@@JohnJohn-cu7nk No. Humble people admit to God they can't know truth without his help. Prideful people look out and the world and think: "I can figure this out myself and even if I can't, who cares what is true."
@@JohnJohn-cu7nk there is no answer to life. we are all a collection of matter, that has figured out it can make more of itself by reproducing. our purpose is to reproduce. however, i don't think it matters how much more matter we create, so i believe in the answer is do whatever you want, without getting in the way of others doing whatever they want.
The issue with the 1 Corinthians passage in my view, is the wooden nature of translation and the formalization of language that occurs when the biblical text is being handled. I think the Knechtles have it somewhat right and the Greek text supports their conclusion.
"I permit not a woman to speak" - speak here is λαλεω, which traditionally was a less formal form of "speak" - like to "chat". Now by the first century, there was less and less distinction between λαλεω and λεγω (which is formal speech), but I think the argument applies well. For instance, whenever Jesus or anyone else of importance says something in the Gospel texts, it's always λεγω (or its Aorist past-tense form, εἰπον).
So the issue with this verse, in my view, is that we have translated it to "speak", and then when reading in English, we conflate that "speak", which sounds formal, with formal speaking in a church setting. When really, it's about keeping quiet when it's not your turn. As a married Christian man with a curious Christian wife, I've had to tell her to leave her whispered questions till we get in the car to go home afterward - because otherwise I miss the speaker's next point while answering her, as well as distracting others and potentially discouraging the speaker by having our own whispered conversation.
BEAUTIFUL RESEARCH HERE JOEL! Doing the Lord's work
@pedgy9897 thanks for your kind words. This is why I strongly advocate for better knowledge of Koine Greek in Christianity. I'm actually somewhat surprised that O'Connor is aware of αυθεντειν not being the "normal" word for authority (that's εξουσία) but unaware of λαλεω vs λέγω/ειπον.
This is interesting; I mean of course if you believe in the Bible's writers were literally inspired you'd expect them to foresee the issues with stating that all women specifically should not 'chat' in church due to the implication that male voices are more important. But even withstanding this, your point about the 'chat' translation is intriguing and I plan to look into it further. I appreciate also that you've taken an approach which accepts that some biblical translations are incorrect rather than just throwing the phrase 'its the word of God so it must be right' around all over the place
@elite_snipers6549 depends on what you think constitutes "inspiration". I certainly don't believe the Bible writers slipped into a trance and God took over their bodies and they woke up to a completed text. It's actually blatantly obvious in the original Greek that they're very different people (the author of Mark's Greek quality is very basic and easy for me to parse and translate, the author of Luke and Acts is much more complex) - this wouldn't occur if the men were entirely taken over by God's Spirit.
Do I think they were telling the truth about what they witnessed? Yup.
FYI the source for my definition of λαλεω is "BDAG", the scholarly lexicon that's as well-regarded as it gets in academia - I strongly recommend people wanting to engage the text in original Greek use higher level lexicons like BDAG, which have entire pages about some words, rather than lower level resources like the Greek appendix of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, which have a few English glosses per word.
God allowed this on purpose as well because he knows everything about human nature. He knew the arrogant would jump to accuse and the humble would seek more information... which is the case in all of life.
It is the best way to separate the proud from the humble, which is Gods goal!
This was so good! As a Christian I still have a ton of questions and have the same curiosity and conundrums as a non-believer. My questions as a Christian don't mean that I am less faithful or less obedient or unbelief to our Father God but more that I just want a deeper understanding, a shared community of believers who are critical thinkers so coming to an atheists' discussions with devout Christians like Cliffe & Stuart; makes sense to me 😁 Jesus is King, I have no doubts; I just want to know Him as in depth as humanly possible thus having a million questions. Thanks for sharing!
Apostate of Roman Catholicism here and an Atheist of 19 1/2 years. You claim to have "no doubts" as to your God's existence. This undercuts the questions that you claim to have about your religion. Since you don't have any doubts about your God's existence, I sincerely doubt that you are truly questioning your religion. If you haven't already, either read or listen to The Bible in its entirety from beginning to end. Ask yourself why any God would allow for the content in the Bible to be in there and somehow not make the endless array of things that would be useful in there.
Or maybe your logical mind is taking over the need to be loved and having imaginary purpose
Questioning the veracity of Scripture is unbelief.
You should repent and believe it.
I totally feel you, same here❤ I'm sure God isn't sexist because of a lot of reasons. Mainly that the resurrection is the reason Bible even makes sense and He first appeared to a woman Mary Magdalene. Next is that men and women are allowed to do whatever we have from God and even in the things like we're not restricted from going to church and we take part in the Lord's table too...
@ And yet, He says He is sexist.
You appear to Hate Him.
I just love how the question wasn't answered
@lolbertcamus love camus
is "idk" not a good enough answer for you?!
@zbuilder4664 First, why are you yelling? Second, they didn't answer the question
He answered. Context and history. Listen again.
@@proudqueer666 i was being sarcastic lmao
This is a fascinating study of how people with an unshakable belief can stretch any information to fit their beliefs.
More fascinating is *why* we are unshakeable, but you'll figure that out later. Hopefully not too late!
Why do you worship people? You look to other people to tell you all truth. Why? Have they proven to know what they are doing? Why is your faith in other people so unshakeable?
@@44ARISEandSHINE44”You look to other people to tell you the truth.” Well, this is surely interesting. Tell me, have you been communicating with angels, gods, and other supernatural creatures this entire time?
@@quesadilla9957 Supernatural creatures? 😅 No, and angels... no. So, were you going to directly respond to the point I made? That most people: follow people?
You can just ask God for truth. He gives dreams. I had many where I heard things in the Bible I didn't know about yet. That was a while back though, obviously I have read it since then.
Why not just go over everyone's head and find out for yourself? I don't understand why anyone would bet all truth, eternity and the nature of reality on what other people say. Insane. It's really not all that weird you just tell him you want to know truth and admit you can't know it unless he shows you.
Maybe I am far more skeptical than the average person..... but there is no way in hell I am betting my soul and my view of reality on what other people tell me I should. Why should I blindly believe people? I was like: I'll find out for myself... and I did. Turns out the Bible is true. God bless!
@@44ARISEandSHINE44 Yep, simple question. You’re asking someone about why they look to other people to tell them the truth. I’m drawing a parallel to you. Who or what are you looking to for “the truth?” No, I’m not asking about religious convictions. Who is telling you “the truth?”
@@quesadilla9957 God.
Who is telling you "the truth"?
God is so explicit in discimination, slavery and genocide. Apologetics trying so hard to justify why he's just and fair is astounding..
There was one sect of Christianity that was based enough to look at the old testament god and surmise that he must have been an evil trickster god and not the tri omni god that jesus claims to be the son of.
The mental gymnastics apologists have to do is incredibly
Hey man i hope you read bible someday and pray and repent! God bless you I will be peaying for you everyday in my life!
What are some examples?
Just think of God as an egocentric cult leader that only had kids to push around for eternity.
Alex is making me a more thoughtful and educated Christian despite the fact that he is an atheist. Goes to show that honesty and integrity can burst through ideology and lead to something truth and mutual respect.
1. Why does Paul appear to prohibit women from speaking in church, and how does this align with his broader teachings?
The Bible teaches that Paul’s instruction in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is tied to maintaining order in worship. In the same chapter, Paul emphasizes that "God is not the author of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33). This reflects the need for structured worship rather than absolute prohibition. Paul's acknowledgment of women prophesying with their heads covered (1 Corinthians 11:5) shows that he did not forbid women from all forms of speech or leadership, but addressed specific issues of disorder in Corinth.
2. How should the instruction that women not teach or assert authority over men (1 Timothy 2:12) be interpreted?
The Bible teaches roles within the church that reflect divine order. 1 Timothy 2:12 aligns with Paul's other teachings, which emphasize submission to God’s design for leadership. However, this does not preclude women from participating in ministry. For example, Paul commended Priscilla, who, alongside her husband Aquila, taught Apollos “the way of God more accurately” (Acts 18:26). The Bible calls for humility and cooperation in leadership rather than domination.
3. How did the cultural backdrop of Greco-Roman gender norms, gnostic beliefs, and pagan cults influence these writings?
The Bible teaches timeless principles but often addresses specific cultural issues. For instance, in Ephesus, where 1 Timothy 2:12 was written, women were influenced by false teachings, possibly from local pagan practices or gnostic ideas. Paul’s instructions sought to protect the integrity of the gospel by discouraging unqualified teaching, regardless of gender (1 Timothy 2:11-14). The emphasis is not on suppression but on preparation and qualification for ministry.
4. How do the restrictive verses align or conflict with other Pauline passages, such as those allowing women to prophesy (1 Corinthians 11:5)?
The Bible teaches a harmonious view of gender roles. 1 Corinthians 11:5 affirms that women prayed and prophesied publicly, demonstrating their active participation in worship. These roles were exercised within the framework of God’s order. Paul’s writings reflect situational guidance-addressing issues of chaos or false teaching-rather than universally restricting women’s speech or ministry (Galatians 3:28, "There is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus").
5. Is it plausible that certain controversial verses were later marginal annotations that became part of the main text?
While the Bible’s transmission over centuries involved human copying, 2 Timothy 3:16 affirms that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God.” This ensures that the essential truths remain intact. Variations in manuscript placement, such as 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, invite careful study but do not negate the core teachings of the Bible. The preservation of Scripture is a testament to God’s guidance.
6. What do these verses imply about women's roles in ministry and leadership?
The Bible teaches that women have significant roles in ministry. Examples include Deborah, a judge and prophetess (Judges 4:4-5); Phoebe, a deaconess (Romans 16:1); and Priscilla, a teacher (Acts 18:26). Paul’s instructions about order in worship do not diminish these examples but instead guide the church in preserving unity and reverence in its practices.
7. How do interpretations of these texts influence modern church practices and gender dynamics?
The Bible’s teachings call for balance: respecting God’s order while recognizing the equal value of men and women in ministry. Galatians 3:28 affirms spiritual equality in Christ, while other passages provide guidance for roles within the church. Modern applications should honor the biblical principles of humility, service, and cooperation in advancing the gospel.
There is no equality between men and women in the bible and women praying with their heads covered refers to the normal prayers at home but they have to be SILENT and obey their husbands. Women also in the early church needed to be covered all the time, Paul only spoke about those who removed their coverings when praying. 😂
And today, this is just immoral and you know it. Women have to be silent, obey their husbands, Aren't allowed to speak and are responsible for what Eve did 😂
Acts is not Paul, but a later invention. 1 cor 11 5 refers to women praying at homes and to women always wearing a head scarf but who remove it for prayers AT HOME.
The Ot also is not kept by Xtians and the female witnesses of Jesus like the Marys have literally 0 importance in Acts. Why? They played no role. And Paul's letters in the chronology are written after Acts (in terms of what's happening in the story). So Paul's last words cancel everything happened in Acts. Just as he even cancels things which happened in the Gospels.
Women have to be quiet, arent allowed to teach, have to obey the men, are less worthy than men and are responsible for what Eve did.
2 Tim 3 16 also can't refer to Greek books of the NT, because they didn't yet exist. And the Bibles author(s) is/are definitely the author of confusion. He/they can't even agree on who went to the tomb. Also not one book goes back to an eyewitness of Jesus
"The woman happened to be Greek, born in Phoenicia in Syria. She asked him to force the demon out of her daughter.
Jesus said to her, “First, let the children eat all they want. It’s not right to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs.”
The Bible comes with all kinds of prejudice pre-packaged.
@@kurremkarmerruk5357 Friend, take a moment to humble yourself and let go of any narrow prejudice you might have against the word of God. Let’s take a closer look at this story and its deeper meaning.
The Bible tells us that Jesus traveled to a place not commonly associated with His mission field-Phoenicia, near Tyre and Sidon. He crossed Galilee, made His way to this Gentile region, and entered a house. Here’s the intriguing part: Scripture says He “did not want anyone to know” He was there (Mark 7:24). But was Jesus really hiding? Not at all. He had a specific purpose, and it was far more intentional than it first appears.
It’s like in the movies when the guy secretly positions himself along his love interest’s route, pretending to “coincidentally” bump into her. That’s exactly what Jesus was doing here, so to speak. He deliberately placed Himself in the path of someone whose faith would not only move Him to action but also teach His disciples a life-changing lesson about the breadth of God’s grace.
While Jesus stayed in the house, a Canaanite woman-a member of a people despised by the Jews-was nearby. She had heard of Him, of His power to heal every disease and cast out demons. Desperate for her daughter’s deliverance and filled with hope, she set out to find Him. She had tried everything else, even seeking help from her own gods, but none of it worked. This was her last hope. A mother’s love drove her forward.
Finally, the moment arrived. Jesus stepped out, allowing Himself to be seen, and she immediately fell at His feet, crying out: “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is grievously tormented by a demon” (Matthew 15:22). This wasn’t just a random encounter. Jesus had planned this moment. He placed Himself in her path, knowing her persistent faith would teach not only His disciples but all of us an enduring lesson about God’s kingdom.
What happens next seems unexpected-Jesus didn’t answer her at first. He stayed silent, and His disciples, annoyed by her persistence, asked Him to send her away. Then, Jesus said: “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24). At first glance, this might seem cold, even dismissive. But Jesus wasn’t rejecting her. He was reflecting the attitudes of the Jewish people, including His disciples, to expose their prejudices and prepare them for a greater revelation.
The woman didn’t give up. She knelt before Him, pleading, “Lord, help me” (Matthew 15:25). Jesus replied with a statement that tested her even more: “It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs” (Matthew 15:26). While this reflected the cultural bias of the time, the woman’s response was stunning: “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table” (Matthew 15:27). She didn’t get offended or discouraged. She humbly and boldly expressed her faith, trusting that even the smallest glimpse of His mercy could bring healing.
Jesus couldn’t hide His compassion any longer. He turned to her and said: “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire” (Matthew 15:28). At that very moment, her daughter was healed.
Here’s the incredible part: this wasn’t a spur-of-the-moment miracle. Jesus had traveled to this region specifically for this act of mercy. This was the only miracle that Jesus wrought while on this journey. It was for the performance of this act that He went to the borders of Tyre and Sidon.
This encounter was deliberate, designed to reveal a powerful truth. By stepping into a Gentile region, engaging with a Canaanite woman, and commending her faith, Jesus shattered the cultural and religious barriers of the time. He showed His disciples-and all of us-that God’s grace is not confined to one group or nation. The message is clear: faith, not ethnicity or background, is the key to God’s blessings.
The blessings of salvation are for every soul. Nothing but his own choice can prevent any man from becoming a partaker of the promise in Christ by the gospel.
This single miracle carried a profound lesson, one that still resonates today: God’s love and grace are for everyone. Jesus’ journey to Tyre and Sidon was a demonstration of His universal mission, leaving an example for His disciples to follow as they carried the gospel to the whole world.
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."
1 Timothy 2:11-15
Please read in context 🙏🙏. Women in those times were poorly educated so it would be dumb for them to teach what they dont know about or if they are wrong about something
@@dawler I'm pretty sure most men of that time were poorly educated too. Why single out women, and specifically force them into intellectual subservience? Why not call for women to be educated so that they too can teach?
sounds good.
@@dawlerThen why not say, "Women ought to be taught the law/Covenant of Christ that they may be educated and truly know the heart of Christ"? It's plain sexist.
@@dawler As mentioned by another commenter, your description of the context is incorrect. The very next verse tells you this.
AND THEN, the meta context is important too. Because most Christian Bible scholars will tell you that the Timothy letters are likely forgeries, since they directly contradict other things that Paul had written. This is important not because you can simply "throw out" the Timothy letters (which, you can) but because it demonstrates that the criteria for all scripture is NOT fact-based. Literally everything in the Bible is the opinion of an independent person, NOT God/Jesus. The Bible is NOT univocal, it's a collection of writings from ancient (and very sexist) men. There is no question that the Bible is sexist.
"abusing the new freedom that they have"
ffs
Fr. Why wouldn’t u have a little fun and stuff when free?
Literally
short answer no its not and it is mimics Gods authority over man and we play that role in church and home with man and wife
Yeah. Like how antifa abuse the freedoms of being an American. You can abuse freedoms. Learn I phycology. It is a thing. You can't look at this from an emotional perspective
@@Baggerz182 did it ever occur to you that maybe men and women should be equals in a relationship?
"I don't want to answer that question, I'll answer this other one instead."
That summarises the video 😂😂
short answer no its not and it is mimics Gods authority over man and we play that role in church and home with man and wife
@@Baggerz182 Are you suggesting that men are supposed to act like god over their wives? lol
@@Vegeta-4101way to blow his comment out of proportions
Cliff has never been afraid to say, "I don't know." I don't know much about Stuart but being Cliff's son & more importantly his protege, I imagine he's the same.
Alex would know that much about his guests but I agree with you. It would of been nice if he actually said that.
Bible? Sexist? No way!
1 Timothy 2:12 “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent”
1 Cor 14:35 “It is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”
Deut. 25:11-12 “If two Israelite men get into a fight and the wife of one tries to rescue her husband by grabbing the testicles of the other man, you must cut off her hand. Show her no pity.”
Deut. 22:28-29 “If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Lev 21:9 “If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she also defiles her father’s holiness, and she must be burned to death.”
Deut 21:10-11 “When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman you may take her as your wife.”
Exodus 21:20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken for he (the slave) is his property”
Exodus 21:7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are”
Leviticus 25: 44-46 “You may purchase male and female slaves from among the nations around you […] You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.”
Amen. Great comment.
Deut. 22:28-29 is a miss / poor translation of NIV(New International Version , previous verses talk about rape being punishable by death
Deut 22:25 “But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. (NKJV)
verse 28 talks about fornication not rape.
28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.(NKJV)
This is the reason why Women are not to speak or teach in the Church.
1 Timothy 2
9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
The truth is women are easily deceived as Eve took the forbidden fruit and believed the devils lie but Adam took it with her. That's why they are given lesser authority.
In terms of slavery , God is the one that frees slaves, these laws are just a guide to how people should treat slaves and servants in the old testament.
you need to keep reading because the Bible discourages the harm of servants which was completely different to how normal slaves were treated in surrounding nations in the times of the old testament
Exodus 21:20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken for he (the slave) is his property”(NIV)
23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.(NKJV)
26 “If a man strikes the eye of his male or female servant, and destroys it, he shall let him go free for the sake of his eye. 27 And if he knocks out the tooth of his male or female servant, he shall let him go free for the sake of his tooth.(NKJV)
@@kuyanatnatdkrx7 a lot wrong here.
1. The verse from deuteronomy is talking about adultery. So thats a non starter.
2. Verse 28 is talking about grape. Seizing, taking hold of. Forcing.
3. Women are no more easily deceived than men. They are the same in this regard. The whole "women are more gullible" was a stereotype that's simply not true.
4. God did not treat sclaves well at all. Nor did free them. He only freed his chosen people. Exodus 21 20-21, Exodus 21 2-6.
Exodis 21 22-25 is not about sclaves. Its about accidental injury in a large battle involvinh bystanders.
@thebelmont1995
how do you know for sure? I'm not criticizing, just genuine curiosity, I also agreed with you...
@@Mr.MHenriques_23 Some verses he used were taken out og context. So if you read Exodus 21 22-26 you notice that in verse 22 it states bystanders in a large conflict. In regards to how I know women are no more easily deceived then men its simple. Ive lived around both my entire life. And honestly ive noticed the opposite if anything. I think women are actually BETTER AT decieving than men. And studies show that women have higher EQ (emotional intelligence) than most men on average. So there is both my subjective lived experience coupled with statistics.
1:48 "Rip the shi-shreds out of a worship service..."
That was close lol
😂
short answer no its not and it is mimics Gods authority over man and we play that role in church and home with man and wife
I heard that, too!
2Peter3:3
knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires
@@Baggerz182 but why is it that the God-man relation is mirrored as the man-wife relation, that is, why does man get to play God and the wife needs to be the one who is below? This is fundamentally the sexist charge, I believe
So as a Christian it's okay to not understand the Bible's contradictions and inconsistencies but scientists are discredited for saying "i don't know".
???
@@MoonLightCatzThe double standard.
Ignorance of the Bible = good.
Ignorance in science = bad
@@CyeOutsider Who has ever said
Ignorance in science = bad??????
Never seen a Christian or anyone of any religion say that??
Also everyone says "Its okay not to know" Its a common phrase used by people of every kind in 2024.
I have never heard anyone say its bad to not know something scientifically and the same for religion.
Personal but my Scientific teacher in high-school would tell me "Its okay not to know something"
Still confused on where people got this from I truly am but I don't know everything so I bet it probably did.
Sorry as a Christian on behalf of others.
But it stands to reason. Its true We don't know everything.
You don't know everything there is the science and that's why scientist spend every day studying and improving tech
The same for Christianity.
Christianity doctrine has been around for 2000 years and christians are still studying the Torah and the New testament, Old, etc.
New Evidence of resurrection of Christ and others of science.
its impossible to know everything. I can answer lots of your questions about the Bible but probably not every single one of them. Same as the scientific stuff.
I think I extended this comment to much sorry.
But God Bless and Stay safe!!
@@MoonLightCatz👏🏽
@@MoonLightCatzI am glad you have never seen it. But I have, as have others. Otherwise this wouldn’t have come up lol. It sucks that it happens but it definitely does.
He is totally talking around the question but not answering it about women. That quote was too well-rehearsed not to have been used several times before. I like how they both looked at each other after Alex asked the question. Nice video Alex. Thanks for trying your hardest to talk sense into people
He answered it
He answered the question by explaining why
Hi Alex, I really admire and appreciate the good faith and genuine curiosity with which you approach some of these intellectually-difficult conversations and topics. It's a rare and wonderful virtue. Keep it up!
I can't wait for Alex to move on to Eastern religious philosophies, particularly of Bhagavad Geeta and Buddhism. I'm just excited to see how he will engage with these two.
That would not be comparable to talking to Christians and Muslims. Most Hindus are happy to say that the Bhagavad Geeta is a group of stories and mythologies written by people and are not to be taken literally.
Additionally, most of more Eastern philosophies don't have specified requirements or take away rights (i.e. from the small amount I know about Hinduism, your belief in a higher entity doesn't influence you going to heaven. Rather you go to heaven if you are a good person)
I don’t think he will…
@cyrusp100No lmao
The Hindu Conservatives(a lot in number) here in india are so extreme that they attack (physically) christians evangelising
@@YuhRiceyThe idea that a disabled child,a lizard or a bird is born like that because of their past life sins is preposterous.
If you grant women the freedom to talk, and they do it more than you want, they've not "abused" their freedom. They've merely exercised it and if you feel otherwise then your a proponent of giving women LIMITED freedoms, i.e. not freedom at all...
@Taniel-x9m Don't see how then being prophets is relevant to my point.
As for it being added - what makes your interpretation superior? Millions of people believe this book to be the inerrant word of God, but then you come along and say this bit doesn't count? If you're right, how is anyone supposed to understand this? And it sounds to me like your implying the bible has errors in it, which most Christians would fight you on.
@@beelzzebub Prophets have to speak. You didn't see how that was relevant?
@@44ARISEandSHINE44 I don't see how it's relevant to mention prophets, when the POINT was about freedoms. You can't grant freedom then complain they've gone too far in exercising that freedom. That screams of control - and thus not freedom.
@@beelzzebub People do this all the time. A woman tells her husband she is fine with him going out on Friday nights with his friends but then he stays out until 3 AM and now it is a problem. So he isn't "free" if he has to care about his wife's feelings?
Women aren't "free" if they need to stop talking so much in chruch? Paul would have directed it to all of them had it been all of them because God is not sexist. He addressed it to them because in that case: it was them.
You have hypocritical standards for the Bible vs everything else in life.
It is relevant because if woman are able to speak in chruch to prophesy, something else is going on with this passage.
@44ARISEandSHINE44 this is a disingenuous analogy, as it's not a question of freedoms being given Vs revoked.
What's happening in the bible, is women are given the freedom to speak, then they exercise that (Paul believes to the detriment of the church) and he then wants to reduce those freedoms or urge people not to exercise them.
That's more like saying women can vote in elections - but when you grant them that, a bad political party wins and you start saying women should not vote. This is not freedom.
In your analogy, the man isnt just exercising his freedom, he's going beyond it (as 3am Saturday is later than the agreed Friday night).
All i am abdicating for is equal rights between the sexes, the focus here of female silence seems to suggest a double standard. That's fine, as it was a long time ago and views on men/women have changed - but just because it was understandable at the time doesn't mean it should be acceptable now.
Cliffe displaying the art of not answering the question he's asked
as per usual
short answer no its not and it is mimics Gods authority over man and we play that role in church and home with man and wife
He literally answered it 💀
@@Baggerz182 don't bother with the comment section they have an IQ lower then the temperature in the room in the video
@@theultimatetank2179I think your m om have lower IQ for b irthing you
Christians love Alex. We have questions too! Its so great to talk about these things and work towards figuring things out! Great video ❤
Thank you Alex for bringing up such important questions. What a blessing it is to be alive at the same time as you!
Where do blessings come from?
@@xisoverxfrom god
@@K-hi7ed🤚💀
@ the same place where the gifts from “Santa Claus” do
The mental gymnastics that apologists have to perform to make the Bible sound humane belong in the Olympics.
may be but I think it is more of a wonder how a person with a mind confidently assert there is no such thing as God.
@@pauthang2439well there is no evidence. That's for one.
I’d say that the lengths God goes for us, though flawed people during flawed circumstances via the Bible , to establish a relationship is truly inspiring
@@pauthang2439 both claims of god existing and god not existing are logcially the same in that we have no (verifiable) evidence for either stance.
But at least for the side claiming he doesnt exist, no matter how far we look, we cannot find a shred of evidence that isnt someones account, that he does exist.
This puts god in the same camp as zeus, Ra and the like. And I ask you the following question, do you say that Ra does not exist?
@@pauthang2439 Why would I think that there is a god? I see no reason to.
The bottom line is that Christianity is a patriarchal religion. Patriarchal, meaning ruled by the father. Men are to be in charge, and it says in several places in the Bible, the women are not to teach. It doesn’t mean that women can’t worship, or be helpful in the church, but they are not allowed to lead or teach.
you wrote:
The bottom line is that Christianity is a patriarchal religion.
Settled with Deborah at about 1100 B.C.
Paul thought he knew better, but was clearly a man
of his time.
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge's verdict could not be altered or appealed.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
Full read time: 10 minutes
Exactly. I'm assuming you're a Christian man and know it would favour you as a man. But it doesn't favour women in any way. So don't be confused when you see Christian women leave the church
What a sad religion for women.
Exactly; we have our roles. They’re not lesser roles; they’re just as important! We are equal to men in every way except physically. Just remember the first people to see the resurrected Christ were women!
@@rachelrenee79 what a cope. Having “roles” is patriarchal. Go ask the majority of men if they wanna have women’s roles. The very concept of emasculation is based on this
Apologists will pull anything out of their a$$ to explain away problematic verses, as if the mere thought that a bible author can be wrong about something is unthinkable.
Idk, alex's view is a good solution for theist or non theist.
NT wright has a lot of great resources on this too.
You didn't even watch the video and already commentating 💀
@@giuSE2004I watched the entire interview
@Rowgun254 thats because the thought of an author being incorrectl is unthinkable....it would mean that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Thats a big deal to Christians. Also, what about these explanations have been pulled out of their ass?? Is it that the explanations given dont fit your own narrative, a narrative that perhaps leans heavily against Christianity
@@seekingtruthgaming8887Even if the words weren't written by paul, it is still problematic that the verse exists in the bible, which is supposed to be the arbiter of moral values
I watched the full interview, and I don't recall this conversation. Thank you providing this information as an extra bonus. 😁😁
At least in Brazil, where I grew up Christian, the pastors had the “decency” to say it was because women weren’t meant to lead because god made them too emotional. It was stupid, but at least it was internally consistent
With all respect to your leaders, what your Pastors said is wrong
Biblically women are allowed to lead and teach other women and I don't think the idea of women being too emotional is a scriptural one somehow, that's an ad hoc reason, if God gives a blueprint for order in the bible then Christians should respect that or maybe give up the title of Christian, perhaps call themselves a cherry picker Christian? Or a part time believer
I mean… women are more emotional than men. Or think with their emotions.
So that pastor pandered to the internalized misogyny part of it and this was an acceptable answer to the church members. Not surprising.
@@skywalker9770 "other women" yeah women are allowed to stay in their second class
So he says women cannot teach because they're too knowledgeable, and there were shouting matches? But they're so knowledgeable, they should ask their husbands at home 🤨🤨🤨
During that time women would be killed for showing their knowledge… hate to be the bearer of bad news but Jews nor Gentiles (romans) respected women… Jesus comes, disperses knowledge, women need to remain silent to stay safe… I’d say there’s a problem with it if it was practiced religiously in Christianity today but it’s not.
Great explanation from Cliff. Another point to continue this idea of women not being educated as a result of sexism of the day. Typically men and women sat separate in the synagogues, therefore when a woman didn’t understand something she might call across the room and interrupt the gathering. Hence the need to remain silent and ask at home.
That is the usual explanation. Probably correct.
If the context was that women, (and specifically women only) were derailing church services by shouting or whatever, shouldn’t Paul have included that context in the verse. Why couldn’t he have said something like “women stop shouting in church, you are derailing the services. I’m talking to you Karen”.
Telling all women that they cannot even speak in church is like an entire class being given detention for their entire school career because one kid had a meltdown and decided to flip his desk over and give the teacher the finger 🖕
Godly women accept and submit to their husbands age whoever is in charge of their local church.
@ because women are not equal to men, right?
@@Steven-hq3go That's basically a supporting argument🤣. Women who obey a sexist, patriarchal God adhere to the patriarchal requirement of submitting to their husbands. So then how on earth is the Bible not sexist?
@@Steven-hq3goyes, and of course you are a guy, why am I not surprised
@Steven-hq3go Interesting how God's will aligns so perfectly with what sexist, patriarchal men want.
Funny that.
These apologists are seriously trying to say the bible doesn't actually say what it CLEARLY says?
The bible is sexist, there is no way around that fact.
People work backwards from their own assumptions when they are talking about the Bible. They pick and choose the parts that make sense and that seem wise while at the same time excluding all the things that are horrific. People have been doing this since the dawn of time. People also seem to have trouble with gray areas and see things in black and white. Existence and the universe are scary place where things sometimes happen for absolutely no reason. Good people die children get cancer a mother deer has to watch its baby torn apart by wolves, there is plenty of horror all around us. I think some people need to feel there is a reason for all this or else it becomes too much.
I had a dream where 2 atheists asked me: "if God is real why do some say he answered their prayers and some say he didn't". I said: "because he doesn't want a bunch of people in heaven who noticed patterns but still hated truth."
He wants people saved, for the right reasons. If he didn't put things that cause people to scratch their head, how would he separate the humble from the proud?
Humble people ask questions and seek more information. Proud people jump to accuse and tear down. It's a fail safe. It was intended to weed out arrogant people who hate truth, because people who love truth always seek more information / understanding.
If you actually took to the time to talk to Christian women, they would tell you real Christian men treat them like GOLD. Far better than any other group of men on the planet, and far better than non-Christian women as well! Humble people would take the time to get to know Christians, and proud people will just accuse them and tear them down. I promise you God knows exactly what he is doing. It was intentional.
When you say "what it CLEARLY says" are you making an internal critique or an external critique?
What's wrong with sexism?
@@signposts6189 I'd rather ask what being "wrong" is
And in true apologist fashion, cliff and stuart will reframe the question to give a scripted answer, without answering the question.
I love how you actually did your research and aren’t just out to make Paul look bad, but to get as close to truth as you can for these discussions. That makes it so much more fair. I feel you have improved in that matter and are possibly the best in your field to talk with Christians on hard topics because of it. The respect given from both sides here speaks volumes and help unity in our divisive world.
Most people in the comments just want to press their own views and spread divisiveness. Thanks for being an example of how to effectively combat an opponent with respect and knowledge.
As a former conservative Christian, no Christian will deny that it isn't but will only try to justify the bad parts.
You must be miserable now leaving your conservative values
I’ll just bite the bullet yes women should not assert authority over men. that’s already assumed the Bible tells us that men are the leader of the family. Obviously the Bible is not talking about some random drug addicted man on the street.
@@AndrewG-FW-TX nope, free and happy. Conservative ideology is an anchor and an albatross. We’ll pray for you, sweaty
@DefenestrateYourself do you still believe in god? You didn't say you weren't religious
@@DefenestrateYourselfnevermind, unless you still want to answer, I thought you were the person who posted the first comment here and i'm not sure why i looked to see before commenting
But if you still want to answer, I will at least read it assuming youtube notifies me
Not even 2 minutes in and This guy is full of it.
Him: "women were ripping church services to shreds with chaos and disorder. Causing shouting matches."
Me: 😅 proof? Or better yet, how about a non-sexist verse of, "thou shall not yell or disrupt church." Applicable to all, not "women can stfu".
Did you not understand at all or are you so dense to quickly reply like this? He literally explained the context of the situation in which Paul was writing letters to a specific group of people that were doing said things
proof? have you ever met a woman? the proof is literally all around you.
@giuSE2004
Can you show me the precise verse where Paul identified that every woman in that particular church was being disruptive and not one of the men were? And where Paul explained why he believed every woman there was in need of her husband's instruction?
Or, if you can't, was this reasoning all just an apologetic invention to cover up gross misogyny.
@@canwelook saying women are different than men... is misogyny? hahahah
@@giuSE2004 prove he was writing it to a specific group of people. Show us the proof.
Oh yeah you can't. Just more imaginary context that you invent to justify things you in hindsight know are wrong.
Apologists are the worst people to debate because their book is so fallacious and contradictory that you can never pin them down to any understanding.
The texts aren’t first person, the historical events described have been disproved many times and yet they still believe it all. It’s ludicrous.
Apologists aren't the audience, though. The audience of this video is mainly people who are on the fence or who could be persuaded one way or the other.
Which historical event?
Please enlighten which historical event was disproved.
Jews being slaves in egypt@@the_real_espada
The Gospels themselves were written by anonymous people. All that is known about them is their name. This is in addition to the fact that previously the punishment of crucifixion was common.
Alex you are such a great interview and ask deep questions. Thank you for all im learning through these discussions
The mental gymnastics one must perform to not think much of the Bible is sexist is mind blowing.
What's wrong with sexism?
@@signposts6189bait used to be believable
@@signposts6189 Whats wrong with an ideology based on the belief that one sex is superior to another? Do you really need me to explain that? Because I will, if you really want to know.
@brnm973 Well then, go ahead and explain what is wrong with sexism..
@@signposts6189 bait
Yes. Hope this helps 👍
😂😂😂
So chaos in the church therefore only women should be silent? Where is he even getting this context from?
I don't know how women speaking in the church is different from speaking in the street but what ever i guess
I'm a mom, and I love my son. He is equal to me in value. I care about his feeling, ideas, opinions, goals etc...
When I am talking, he is not. It isn't because he is "beneath" me and it isn't because I don't love him. It is because otherwise: it is chaos.
It is the same with a teacher and students, or when a waiter is asking you what you want to order. People are quiet ALL the time, in certain contexts... so there is order. It isn't shocking atheists want to use this to falsely accuse Christians because that is what they do. Take everything as an extreme. If there is a staff meeting, people are quiet so the manager can talk.
I don't see you hypocrites running around saying: managers think they are superior to their employees because they say to be quiet in the staff meetings to the manager can speak! I can't believe so many of you are so spazy. I am a woman and this makes perfect sense. SOMEONE has to be the leader in many situations: or it doesn't go well. So, God said in this context and in the family it is men. It isn't a big deal... ESPECIALLY when the person who is the leader values: love, empathy, honesty, faithfulness, kindness, patience, self-control etc.. etc.. all things the Bible teaches.
@@44ARISEandSHINE44God bless you.
@@44ARISEandSHINE44what if there is a family where the man wants to be submissive? Can the woman be the head of the house? Since it's just SOMEONE that has to fulfill this role then surely there's nothing wrong with this scenario. Otherwise it would mean there are different factors at play.
@@igorbondari
A Christian marriage
is two equals working together and submitting to their boss, Jesus.
It would be nice to have more of these convos between those who believe and those who question.
I love these videos. I am an ignorant but this is very balanced and is a real conversation with no fanatism!!!!
How many gold medals for this level of mental gymnastics?
the entire comment section seems to not know one of the first words Cliffe said in the video, "Context"
Is the Bible sexist? Let’s just say, if women were waiting for equal rights in the Bible, they’d still be standing in line like it’s Black Friday at a Hobby Lobby.
Equal in value but different roles.
@@B4Africa And the role of women was to be less than men...
@@B4AfricaSeparate but equal, got it.
A lot of women became Christian because they gained more rights.
@@giorgaras1851 now it's actively stripping women's rights. That is arguing a lesser evil not greater morald
I was brought up as a religous at about 16 I realised St Paul was a Misogynist. I then realised that the entire bible was written by men from 2000 years ago and a lot of it may not be relevant to me as a Woman today.
Watch the video again. There's good evidence that Paul himself was no sexist, but later commentators inserted sexism in between his words.
The bible was written by men. It was also written by the mos holy people of that time divinely inspired by God. What does that have to do with whether or not its worth following instead of evaluating teachings
It’s not. One gal to another. Of course you’ll hear religious men and Stockholm symdrome/religious women disagree. As the two examples above show.
Love the uncomfortable smiles while Alex is tearing apart the apologists arguments
they were smiling, because he was asking great intelectual questions , while failing to under the barebone of culure and what was normal at the time which they pointed out
@@h1ghken if it were the word of god, then it wouldn't align with the worldly culture of that time but align with god's way of thinking, even if problematic. if it relies on culture of their time, then it's only inerrant for their time, which defies what the bible is supposed to be.
Your misunderstanding
@kaitlynpelcher1287 they can worship God without putting themselves in jarms way
@@h1ghken great to know that the entire Bible is irrelevant in today’s culture and can be ignored.
I really like Alex, what an intelligent young man with thought provoking questions.
I don’t know how you could actually, line by line, without a preacher’s spin, read the Old Testament and conclude that the Bible is anything other than extremely sexist
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge's verdict could not be altered or appealed.
Refusal to accept a Judge's verdict on any matter,
resulted in execution, according to Deuteronomy.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
Full read time: 10 minutes postable here
Sexist is a word that wasn't around for thousands of years until people began to think they know better than everyone else who has ever lived before. It's just something to think about.
To think that suddenly now people are more enlightened is... cute.
@@andrewmccombs7347 Uhhh that’s kind of how humans were able to conquer the entire planet unlike any other species. Because we pass on loads of information to subsequent generations through education and we don’t have to wait for biological evolution to catch up and give us natural instincts. So yes, we do in fact know better than the people before us because we objectively have an ever increasing database of knowledge which can catch us up on a millennium’s worth of experience in a matter of years.
@@andrewmccombs7347Do you think people should have equal rights regardless of whether they're male or female? If so do you think the passage being debated here helps that aim or hinders it?
Ermmm, no
Tap dance, tap dance, tap dance. Forget religion, these two should teach dance classes.
Yea I’ve never seen a women as a priest which kinda shows that they still don’t think women are equal
Men and women were created in the image of God,
as written in Genesis 1 before the Fall, and Genesis
5 after the Fall.
Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
-excerpt Genesis 1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. On the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them “mankind” on the day when they were created.
-excerpt Genesis 5
@ are they though? If a women can’t be a priest that already inherently means they think less of them on top of that churches tend to treat women like babies factories instead of people
@ also your quote doesn’t help your claim since neither of them allow women to be priests
@@nickcurry77
The Judges were pastors/shepherds, as written.
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
Essay on Deborah.
Full read time: 10 minutes postable here
@ bro are you an idiot that makes no sense to what we are talking about
I’d encourage you to look into Mike wingers study on it, Ive seen people he disagreed with who now use him as the best resource on this topic. Very well done and well researched videos
The way they twist around so they can say it isn't contradictory is absurd .
They draw their conclusions and then find the supporting evidence lol.
There is nothing contradictory, Paul is crystal clear on the subject. People just don't like his reason.
As a pantheist it really upsets me about how little he knows about pantheism, and how utterly poor his misrepresentation is. As someone who is meant to teach beliefs you should understand others as well.
Pantheism? Tell me more.
I mean, I'm a Henotheist, but that doesn't actually yell you what religion I follow. What's your religion?
I'm just curious, I love religion.
@ yeah totally! it’s not necessarily a religion in a sense, it’s more so a perception of “God”.
Equating the universe and everything in it to being “God”, which includes you, me, nature, and even the phone you’re using as “God”. Making this god thing observable. The works of Spinoza and ideas of Neoplatonism describe this well for westerners in their respective cultural context.
Although with everything being “God” that means that everything is part of the same thing. Therefore it’s all one thing, which is when it falls into Monism.
I see. I'm a Mormon, so our beliefs are kind of similar in that I believe that everything has a spirit. Rocks, birds, trees; these were all created spiritually first, and they will return to spirit when they die.
Not quite the same thing, but it's comparable.
I love how they smile at 07:35 at alex's interpretation and justification of why Alex does not think it is paul writing that verse. I think it is beautiful how much they respect his knowledge and opinion
Those are nervous, uncomfortable smiles. They look at each other seeking comfort.
@@rumraket38It kind of sounds like either your projecting. Or you are reveling in something you are interpreting that's happening.
@@_test_site7553😂right
When this is the point where the Bible is self-explained, that doesn’t mean you’ll hate on God. There has to be a good explanation why this is perceived towards women. We all need to pray and have a reverence heart on God, not on priests and other pastors. We still serve for God and His purpose, because He’s our provider and giver of things.
Trust me. My heart is always open to Him, and He was good and all-knowing. ✨🎀
What’s even the point of trying to talk to these people? They are are taking Stone Age literature literally…
Well that Stone Age found Western Civilization. The system of Justice is based on the Judeo-Christian tradition, Christmas, etc. Communists always try to get rid of the ten commandments and always ands up in Dictatorship
Yeah facts and Aristotle was an idiot 🤩🤩🤩 or wait is he an exception 💀
Maybe these pre modern peoples had some good ideas 😅
Bro is making is committing the born before me fallacy 🥸
Why should we have respectful conversations with them? Because a respectful conversation is likely the most effective way to encourage them to reconsider their beliefs. Is it particularly effective? No. But there aren't any other alternatives really. Telling people they're flat-out wrong only prompts them to dig in more.
I am a woman, and I believe in christ.
I have noticed the sexism in the bible. It does not make me question God, it makes me question the men who wrote the book. How can I believe everything in the Bible wasn't biased? What if someone put their opinions in it to control people?
I question the humans who wrote the book, not God himself.
Sure. Wrote two informal essays should you wish to study more on this.
Reply if desired.
If you believe in Christ you have to believe the Bible is the perfect word of God
That is exactly why I as a woman converted to Islam. It is preaching equality and equity of genders, races and all kinds of workers and people of ages. Everyone is the same in the eyes of Allah
@@junkosdespaircito5093
If you can separate (I can help) the false teachings of Paul,
you will see valid and true Christianity. Men and women are
stated twice in Genesis to be made in God's image. There isn't
one gender that is above the other.
@armanifryeowens5518 that assumes that the Bible is the accurate representation of what happened in the past, and that a god exists.
How interesting that Gods will aligns so perfectly with the what sexist, patriarchal men want.
Such a coincidence.
this just is not true
Funny how Alex talks a lot about his thoughts and his take on things and how both just let him talk. Before they answer, that glimpse is magical
“Who gives a rip about Adam being created first?” Well Paul apparently 💀
Well, to be honest, it really doesn’t seem like Paul even wrote that down he probably was just putting in there someway somehow for some odd reason
@ in that case all of the scriptures have to be considered as potentially corrupted in some similar way. Therefore losing even more credibility
Paul was influenced by knowledge of Epicurus which is why he incorporated much of Epicurus teachings in his gospels.
@@MindfulStudyLofi You don't say?
@@C0urne I don’t say what?
Having to deal with full grown adults still trying to convince others that a mythological book of stories is the truth and the best source of morals is just absolutely crazy.
the big bang book? or the monkey book?
@ahah86 Supernaturalist religion is ridiculous. The sooner it is replaced with reason, enlightened self-interest, empathy, and science, the better.
@@NewsChannel-y4g those are theories up to review, not mythological stories. Can you not see the difference?
@NewsChannel-y4g
You still believe in fairytales 😂?
@@NewsChannel-y4g and neither of those THEORIES are claiming to be 100% true. the problem is one holy book is claimed to be TRUTH and then when asked for evidence of it being truth, they constantly point back to the book. if you doubt something, you cannot use ITSELF to prove whether it's true or false
Good question …
Answer ?…
I’ll make something up
😆😂😂😂
Your content is appreciated, Connor. There are so many tipped fedoras down in the comments it makes it easy not to get distracted.
Why is it hard to admit that the Bible isn’t politically correct
short answer no its not and it is mimics Gods authority over man and we play that role in church and home with man and wife
I think the Bible survives because of its ambiguity and its nebulousness. Rather than admit its flaws, Christians double down and cherry pick what matches ‘today’. That’s how it remains contemporary. What Alex is doing is seriously awkward because it’s the opposite of how Christians use the Bible.
Well, considering that politics are constantly changing, I don't see how anything which doesn't also change could remain politically correct for more than a couple months. I mean, in 50 years we will probably be seen as savage monsters with reprehensible values for burning fossil fuels and destroying the planet. And 50 years after that it could be immoral just to touch someone, lest you infect them with a disease. And 200 years after that, we may have a completely different identity, where people and AI are melted together, and treated as systems rather than individuals. Then we look back on the "everyone's an individual" age and think "Wow, those people are so morally inferior. How could they believe something so awful?"
If you want to convince people that the bible is the ultimate source of divine knowledge, the fact that it's a product of the time period it was written is rather inconvenient and is something you need to dodge
Well, considering politics are always changing, I don't think it's possible for anything to remain politically correct unless it's also changing. I'm sure in 50 years we will all be seen as moral degenerates for burning fossil fuels and destroying the planet. And in 200 years even more so for not granting rights to AI.
As an Orthodox Christian woman who wears a head covering I’m delighted to see Alex O’Connor talking about women and the Church. I don’t agree with everything he says but good on him for talking about this part of scripture.
Alex is a very honest and sharp man. Because he doesn't have the need to paint a delusion of Christianity as a feminist religion of equal rights, he is able to be entirely true to what the scriptures actually say. And I must say, he articulates the bible's teaching of patriarchy better than many preachers and apologists.
0:59 "Women are abusing the new freedom they got" this guy literally just said that in 2024 ...
Yeah so?
@emman71 ok incel
@emman71 ok in-cel
@@sunwukong6917 uhhhh edgy. I love the nightlife, I like to boogie on the disco aaaaaayy YEAHHH
@@sunwukong6917 womp womp, get chopping quick, where's your spatula
The idea of that Corinthians verse being added later makes so much sense! I'll do some research, but it does sound very plausible to me.
Regardless of how apologists defend them, we must acknowledge the real-life negative impact these apparently misogynistic passages have had on women for centuries and question how a good, loving god would allow this to be in his holy book? Spoiler alert - no real, actual god had anything to do with the Bible.
Aren't Christians supposed to avoid being this dishonest, especially about their own book?
In my experience it's hard to tell whether Christians are so self-decieved they are sincere in their responses or are practising deceit deliberately. Maybe a bit of both. I try to give the benefit of the doubt and think they genuinely believe what they say and just can't understand or see the issues.
Part 11
PAUL STATES THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE SILENT
As in all the churches of the saints, the women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
-excerpt 1 Corinthians 14
In this matter Paul speaks of the 'law'. There is a small possibility that he is
referring to a Roman or local law. If not, then Paul is stating that Christian women were
still under the Old Covenant laws.
Yet there was no Old Covenant law that states that women should be silent.
Then the daughters of Zelophehad...came forward. They stood before Moses, before Eleazar the priest, before the leaders, and all the congregation at the entrance of the tent of meeting, saying, “Our father died in the wilderness, yet he was not among the group of those who gathered together against the Lord, in the group of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons. Why should the name of our father be withdrawn from among his family simply because he had no son? Give us property among our father’s brothers.” So Moses brought their case before the Lord. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The daughters of Zelophehad are right about their statements. You shall certainly give them hereditary property among their father’s brothers...
-excerpts Numbers 27
These women were not rebuked, even though they spoke before everyone, including Moses.
What they asked for was granted to them, because God agreed with them.
____________________________________________
In this case it is generally believed that the women were on one
side of the room and the men on the other. The wives were asking
their husbands what something meant in the middle of the sermon.
It is thought that Paul just wanted to keep some basic order.
Therefore Paul writes:
If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
I'm saying this because it seems to make sense.
It may or may not be correct.
Alex- "Cliffe what do you think about this passage?"
Cliffe- "That's a tough question thank you. Let's talk about these passages instead."
Mad that scripture is used to back up scripture? Come up with a more specific and genuine complaint that can be addressed
@UnderOneLight It was an obvious deflection because there is no way for him to directly answer Alex's question on that verse without it looking bad.
Genesis 3:16
[16] Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
I'm always in awe with active mental gymnastics
Adult men debating superstition in the 21st century is cringeworthy 😬
If there was a major or even small religion that claimed that men should not speak and only women should, and that we should fully lead marriages and be leaders in religious and other settings over men, then men would call this a misandrist religion and it would be all they spoke about. Despite how they already are in more positions of power in society and treated as higher than us socially.
It is extremely clear that christianity (like most religions) is explicitly sexist, and people refuse to see the it the way they would if it was reversed as they believe on some level that it is true and justified. Otherwise it honestly makes nonsense to me to claim that this isn’t discriminatory. And this effects countless women who are sadly raised to view themselves as lesser and subservient across the world.
In this case it is generally believed that the women were on one
side of the room and the men on the other. The wives were asking
their husbands what something meant in the middle of the sermon.
It is thought that Paul just wanted to keep some basic order.
Therefore Paul writes:
If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
I'm saying this because it seems to make sense.
It may or may not be correct.
The above being said, one has to reject some of what Paul wrote.
Paul wrote and believed that Christianity was hierarchical, with certain
Christians above others, and those above others. This was totally
against the teachings of Jesus.
He believed that husbands were over their wives as well.
I could go on, but I have addressed these and other teachings of
Paul in an informal essay. He didn't come out well.
Keep being a Berean, Alex. “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.”
What's the point in trying to explain away everything in the bible. What an exhausting practice. Can't they just admit it's a very old book written by people with limited understanding and capabilities, the sort of people susceptible to fantasy.
I think its because its gods word? I could be wrong. Either way you're right, it would be exhausting
@AwakenTheEarth It's not that it is God's word, it's more that it's sold as God's word
Because their racket wouldn't work as well.
Wright's they should spend a lot less time trying to interpret what the Bible says and just read the damn words and accept that is what it says. This same guy being interviewed was on another podcast saying that everything in the Old testament was just hyperbole
most of the bible is just stolen from other, earlier religious anyway.
The mental gymnastics believers have to do in order to justify a 2,700 year old book is hilarious 😂
I know the conversation is over as soon as they say "context-"
And you refused to listen then bc you’re closed minded
They looked at each other so scared when he asked that question. Like "how are we gonna cover this one up?" 😂😂
"They should stay silent because they already know what is being talked about" 😅 then why does the bible explicitly target women on that matter? I dont know why pastors try hard to soften and mis direct what they truly understand about Gods law, just tell it as it is
Part 11
PAUL STATES THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE SILENT
As in all the churches of the saints, the women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
-excerpt 1 Corinthians 14
In this matter Paul speaks of the 'law'. There is a small possibility that he is
referring to a Roman or local law. If not, then Paul is stating that Christian women were
still under the Old Covenant laws.
Yet there was no Old Covenant law that states that women should be silent.
Then the daughters of Zelophehad...came forward. They stood before Moses, before Eleazar the priest, before the leaders, and all the congregation at the entrance of the tent of meeting, saying, “Our father died in the wilderness, yet he was not among the group of those who gathered together against the Lord, in the group of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons. Why should the name of our father be withdrawn from among his family simply because he had no son? Give us property among our father’s brothers.” So Moses brought their case before the Lord. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The daughters of Zelophehad are right about their statements. You shall certainly give them hereditary property among their father’s brothers...
-excerpts Numbers 27
These women were not rebuked, even though they spoke before everyone, including Moses.
What they asked for was granted to them, because God agreed with them.
____________________________________________
In this case it is generally believed that the women were on one
side of the room and the men on the other. The wives were asking
their husbands what something meant in the middle of the sermon.
It is thought that Paul just wanted to keep some basic order.
Therefore Paul writes:
If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
I'm saying this because it seems to make sense.
It may or may not be correct.
It is interesting that only thanks to Christianity women have now same dignity as men, not thanks to atheism for sure. But at the same time Jesus seemed to fully agree with the whole old testament...
nah, that's just the naturall process of progress, the moment society allowed it's people to question their theocracy is where that theocracy eventually crumbles which gave rise to secualirism,
That’s not true😂
Men commenting on subjugation of women in the bibble. Let’s ask women their opinion.
Did you not hear. They shall stay quiet 🤐
That is a not so intelligent thing to say. These guys are not talking about opinion they're trying to get to the fact of what's going on in the scripture. Facts are gender-neutral so even though they're talking about women being explicit about the facts of the matter and not feelings and opinion means that women do not necessarily need to be involved for this to be a legitimate intellectual debate.
@@JumpingJax777Dude, what did I just read??? I’ll give you a pass if english is not your first language. But talk about an unintelligent comment!
'understanding the culture that is being addressed is very important' says Cliffe Knechtle. So even the pastor is admitting that what is being said in the bible is NOT an all time and eternity statement direct from the 'creators mouth', but a range of inspired authors talking in different times and places, so by all means try to make sense of things that we struggle to make sense of in modern terms, BUT at the end of the day be prepared to let it go, and accept religion must evolve to some extent just like the rest of human culture.
I just got introduced to Alex recently through destiny content. He’s brilliant.
However, he seems to spend a lot of time on religion. No offense, but is this the best use of his time? Haven’t we gone over this enough?
We can’t intellectualize with religious people too far because eventually the religious person will have to leave any type of grounded reality for the faith aspects that are designed to be disprovable.
I would propose moving into economics, politics, philosophy, or at the very least spirituality that is more divorced from dogmatic religions.
I will say I am quite new to Alex and haven’t deep dived into all his content so correct me if I’m getting ahead of myself. Cheers
why?
the insidious nature of religion has co opted a pretty massive swatch of the population. don't have to look farther than the southern baptists and their embrace of trump as second coming of christ and how that impacts Israel/Palestinte via their beliefs.
You wouldn't say this to a professor or intellectual about their chosen area of expertise.
"so you're a really good cook, can you farm?"
m hedberg
@ love hedberg, I know that whole special by heart.
The problem is, who is he converting? Exposing religious people in front of a crowd of religious skeptics does what exactly? Is there evidence he’s moved the needle?
And while it’s not a perfect metaphor, Alex can digest and take on any subject, so yes he can farm as well.
@@HeatleyBrosI can tell you personally that Alex helped when I had a lot of questions about religion, when I was pursuing what was real and truthful. Same with Brandon from Mindshift.
Yes, it is the best use of his time. He has mainly studied religion and philosophy, not economics or politics, and that has always been his focus. While Alex is very intelligent and surely could engage with many subjects, I appreciate that he is committed to understanding one thing particularly well, rather than be a general commentator on anything he pleases
@@jaimepujol5507 fair enough, I just don’t see enough young brilliant people approaching other difficult subjects in this way, we need more people like Alex then.
God these apologists are the most intellectially dishonest people ive ever seen. Thank you alex for exposing them.
He is not exposing them, he is having a conversation with generic Protestants. I am Catholic myself, and I fully admit there are pseudo-authors of the Bible, and I am inclined to agree that this snippet of Paul's letters were not written by Paul, but a scribe inserting it into the copy. I just do not find that delegitimizing because there is no reason to think that God cannot divinely inspire multiple authors and divinely allow portions to make its way into the final rendition of his most holy word, word that is without error. Only our interpretation can be in error, not the Scriptures. This is also why God gifted us the Holy Magisterium of the Church, the living breathing office of the Church to infallibly declare and promulgate teachings free of error as protected by the Holy Spirit.
@IrishNationalist1916 the scriptures can and are absolutely in error. And when I say expose I mean this mental gymnastics that aplogists use to justify horrible things and make up imaginary context to try and soften whsr is clearly outdated and heinous morals that no one one now has and no one in good conciouss would defend. The intellectual dishonesty at play with these people is insane.
@IrishNationalist1916 he is exposing them. Their intellectual dishonesty is astounding when trying to defend things they know are wrong. Also its not an error in interpretation it is absolutely an error in writing.
@@thebelmont1995 If i wrote "the skies are like the deepest oceans" and I was trying to convey the truth of their color; blue, but you interpreted it as the skies being super dangerous like the deepest oceans, you would be incorrect but the text was still without error.
@IrishNationalist1916 If you wrote that entire universe was created in 6 days you'd be wrong. Flat out. If you'd state its just a metaphor you need proof the its just a metaphor and then your need to explain what its a metaphor for.
This was rather dishonest from Cliff. The Bible is very clear that elders and the teachers in the church should be men, because of creation design, not culture or context or any other extra biblical perspective. God commands it the church should follow it. Simple!
Exactly. 1 Timothy 2:13 explicitly gives the reasoning of which sex was formed first to justify patriarchal church hierarchy. The idea that the hierarchy is justified by the creation story points to something inherent in it.
Not only that, but looking to 1 Cor 14:36 (just after the original verse being discussed), following on from denigrating the idea of female leadership in church, it even talks of who the word of God “originated” with, which was, if we take 1 Timothy’ creationism justification into account, Adam.
Nothing to do with the culture or the education status of women. Both verses, in their contexts, seem to be speaking to the supposed “inherent” nature of patriarchy. Very dishonest of them.
So nice to see someone standing on biblical truth!!!
You clearly do not know who Paul is if that's your position
The amount of people that made comments without even listening to the video first is mind blowing.
First, Paul did NOT impose an absolute silence upon women. Women are commanded to sing in church; and singing is a form of “speaking” and “teaching” (Ep.5:19; Col.3:16). Women are commanded to confess Christ before men, which also involves speaking (Mt.10:32; cf. Ac.8:37). And women may confess their sins to others, which will involve speaking (Jm.5:16). While I have heard of churches who would take women outside of “the assembly” to hear their confession of Christ or of sin, I think most can see the utter absurdity of such a view.
@kac0404 why do you assume that you can harmonize the teachings of the new testament?
@TheFloridaBro The bigger question is, why don't you believe?
@kac0404 good dodge. I'll answer after you do.
@TheFloridaBro It's no dodge. I believe what I believe. If you don't believe, that's between you and God, and trust me, you'll lose.
@kac0404 man you had so much to say with your "First point"/ "second point"...but you can't justify your assumption that harmonization is a legitimate hermeneutic?
Edit: are you liking your own comments?
Context! It does not say what it says. 😂
I have read 8 different versions of the bible in my entire life, even the one they give you in the military, all of them are super sexist.
What's wrong with sexism?
@@signposts6189 well, that depends on your morals. If you value things like fairness and justice, then sexism is undoubtably wrong.
@@signposts6189 ask the women who have been affected by it and they’ll tell you.
@Glasstable2011 That doesn't tell me anything about what's wrong with sexism. Do tell...
@jaimepujol5507 So if someone else's morals say it's okay, therefore it isn't wrong? If so, why would you have a problem with someone else's morals reflected in the Good Book?
It's been pointed out by many scholars like Joseph Fitzmyer that this verse is a quotation from the Corinthians, Paul the Apostle quotes them and responds in the next verses.
Is the Bible sexist? Well, is the sky blue?
What's wrong with sexism?
@@signposts6189sexism is wrong because it contradicts my moral values, like slavery etc. Depends on your current moral framework. If you believe in Gods commands then it might not be wrong. But then you probably shouldn't wear mixed fabrics, and definitely have a slave or 2
@@signposts6189 haha good one
@@signposts6189Are you asking about sexism towards women or sexism towards men?
The New Testament writings predate the term sexist by almost 2000 years. Was all of history and Christian civilization wrong up until 50 years ago or did they have the knowledge that there's a created order and that God wants men to have leadership in this life?