Why This Huge German Warship Has No Teeth (Baden-Württemberg Frigate)
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- Опубліковано 27 лют 2023
- The German Baden-Württemberg class, the largest frigate in service, is one of the most lightly armed and least powerful. Why did Germany build such a mediocre warship?
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Tags: modern warships, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Sachsen-Anhalt, Rheinland-Pfalz, F222, F223, F224, F225, ThyssenKrupp, Krupp, NATO, Cold War, Bremen class, Brandenburg class, German Navy, Deutsche Marine, Bundeswehr, military, defence - Наука та технологія
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Much of it has to do with the collective guilt Germany still carries, that and they think that they'll never have to contribute to a real conflict. They are a major freeloader in NATO, they're in such poor shape that if they had to defend themselves they truly couldn't in modern conflict. They can design and make fantastic weapon systems though, the proposed MEKO A-300 is truly a ship of beauty, the US should have gone with something similar for our new frigate program, instead we got our regular garbage.
I think one point that falls short in the discussion about her is the sheer amount of space available exactly because she is rather lightly armed. There are comparatively large spaces for mission modules for hospitals, a detention center (for anti piracy missions), special forces, etc. Of course similar sized warships have that too but not to that extent. What this ship basically is, is a mobile base camp that you can park of the coast of another continent for comparatively LONG time on station due to the multi crew concept and use it as a fix point to conduct stabilization, anti piracy or spec-ops missions. And even though peer-to-peer conflict got more relevant again that doesn't mean that those mission sets are not relevant any more.
Dude, its literally in the first paragraph of the wiki article. "They are primarily designed for low and medium intensity maritime stabilization operations, where they are supposed to provide sea-to-land tactical fire support, asymmetric threat control at sea and support of special forces.". The f125 replaced the Bremen-Class which was build for symmetrical encounters for the cold war. But that wasnt needed anymore, instead it was equipped with enhanced land-attack capabilities. This will better suit the frigates in possible future peacekeeping and peacemaking missions. For such reasons, the frigates will also mount non-lethal weapons.
The more powerful Frigate, its a destroyer, lets be real, will be the F126 which will replace the current Anti-Sub frigates of the Brandenburg-Class, and the F127 will replace the highly advanced air-defense frigates of the Sachsen-Class.
So in short:
F125: for low to medium threat theatres like securing shipping routes, piracy, humanitarian aid, stabilizing countries, be a base for special forces etc.
F126/Brandenburg-Class: ASW
F127/Sachsen-Class: AA
And yeah its stupid that they are all called Frigates.
some advice - NEVER rely on Wikipedia for sourcing information. Wikipedia for a start tilts STRONGLY left, especially whenever President Trump is noted. To me personally Wiki is a source I avoid, you may get 'basic' details, but not much else. Up to you.
@@BTR-xw4of What about the wiki article regarding the f125 is wrong because of left-leaning tendencies?
@@CaptCondor "you may get basic details" yes - yeah a fact. Lazy as using Wiki to source. Please.
@@BTR-xw4of again: which statements on Wiki about the f125 class are biased because of leftism?
Hey, at least the hull doesn't crack every time they try to go full speed.
It seems to me like the same role could be accomplished by a much smaller ship. There was a bizarre period in the 2000s-2010s where the Western powers were obsessed with creating some super ship that could do in littoral waters what ships like the Arleigh Burke could do in blue waters. If the purpose is to create a ship that carries an artillery gun designed for shore bombardment against unsophisticated opponents, the solution is a gunboat, surely? Build a cost effective ship around a cannon, strip out all unnecessary systems, cover it in miniguns and machine guns for protection against small boats and drones, and operate it within the cover of a fleet's missile defence system. We shouldn't have to relearn the same lessons over and over again; this is why a solid understanding of naval military history is vital to ship designers and naval procurement officers.
No it can be done by a smaller ship because next to land attack and anti Pirate it is also a Proof if Concepts Ship where close to everything is new. Thats why its called the German Zumwalt or the Fat Lady xD
@Kqcke for You difference is america has by far the most powerful navy on the planet, and can afford fuck ups like zumwalt...and atleast zumwalt still has Aegis and VLS... Baden-Württemburg doesn't, and the German navy doesn't have the luxury of the USN. with the Bremen class out of service(mostly) Germany has just had a net loss of legitimate surface fleet capabilities.
Look at the Dutch De Zeven Provinciën class if you want to see a powerful frigate...or the FREMM if you want to see a versatile modular Frigate.(a Franco-Italian joint venture, so good even the US ordered FREMMs after they won the FFG(X) contract...the US buying a foreign ship design is Unprecedented, and only speaks for the quality of the project.
Look at those as good examples of what Germany needs,not this glorified Long-Endurance Coast Guard Cutter
@@granddukeofmecklenburg first the reason america bought Fremm is because they wanted to get the new frigate now and not in 10 Years. De Zeven Provinciën-class is close to being the same as the german Sachsen class except it has 8 VLS cells more and a 5 inch gun. And with the Bremen they lost what ?😂 Like you forget F-123 and F-124 which each a more effectiv then that.
@@granddukeofmecklenburg also Zumwalt doesn't have its full radar capability (only X-Band Radar) and its VLS is limited to ASROC, Tomahawk and ESSM. Also FREMM unlike F-125 doesn't have Most of its system new and never used before in the german navy instead they use existing systems and already in use off the shelf components except the new Combined Diesel Electric and Gas Hull, Mechanical and Electrical (HM&E) propulsion. That said FREMM is a very good frigate
Actually europe builts really good frigates that are basically destroyers. The Spanish f100 class, that is esencially a smaller Arleigh Burke, the FREMM and the type 45 that have a really good air defense sytem
The Baden-Württemberg class is literally a "solution in need of a problem".
Its intended role seems to be to do what literally any halfway decent ship its size could do as a byproduct of being a huge warship. I kind of hope that the design was somehow made futureproof by allowing refitting with stuff that makes it more versatile or capable of other (much more important) roles.
As long as it doesn't go the route of the Admiral Kutsnezov or the Moskva lol...
Its is future proof............ Well in theory but atleast the first one was big hulled.
It addresses the problem that the past 30 years the sole purpose of frigates was sea control on station thousands of miles away from port. It is specifically designed what the German was doing for decades now.
So that assumption is incorrect. Whether that is a good solution is an issue of stratgeic assessments.
@@mangalores-x_x As I said in my original post: The thing is made for a task that _any_ warship its size can do, merely as a byproduct of being a warship of its size.
Optimizing it for long missions and a small crew is a decent idea and not part of the problem, everything else about this glorified sealclubber is.
It's a warship that is not made for _war._
It's a ship built to help in low and medium intensity operations. So, what does this ship offer in a high intensity operation?
It's made to blow up Somali pirates in an inflatable rubber boat. As if any decent regular warship can't do that.
That just looks silly to me.
exactly a offshore big ferry with guided missle corvete could easily do the mission the german navy expected it to do it should have been a proper airdefense warship or loaded for asw mission instead its bascialy a big offshore pattrol boat with ciws and guided asw.
@@h.a.9880 There seems to be a high intensity war going on where one side is threatening the other sides trade with cheap drone boats and is occupying drilling platforms off the coast. A few remote controlled stabilized automatic cannons and Machineguns, 2 Helicopters and 4 RHIBs would probably more useful than all those VLS on the Admiral Gorshkov-class.
Other ships might be able to do low intensity warfare too, but they might be just as good at it as this thing is in anti air warfare.
Fun fact for ASW with F-125. It can be refited with a towed Sonar array and in theory torpedos on rockets (well more a cruise Missile but you get the point guys). This means in could do ASW without the need of the Helicopter
The role of this ship is less focused on actual "frontline" naval war, but more on a-bit-of-everything. What i mean by that are the tasks that dont require a sh*t ton of firepower. Like rescue, reconnaissance, escort, keeping pirates away, patroling, etc.
Seems like a fine ship. A lot of naval activity around the globe are focused on tracking of illegal weapons and other shipments. There is coast guard support in tracking and capturing drugs shipments, there is still ample threat of piracy for instance around different areas of Africa. It also can support troop shipments which could include UN peace keeping. With its size, hospital options could be supported, but barely discussed. Good evacuation support. General ocean going policing of international waterways, cable-routes, gas pipes and tunnels. Great options for air or sea drone support thanks to the large hanger and many boat-bays. So, it is a capability rich platform! And for powerful force, it can sail in fleet formation. The big long range high speed gun nails the capability of sea to land power. For a true rocket launching pad, use other ships - but they don't have all the other peace-keep capabilities which are so relevant even today. This can be a very effective off shore navel support vessel, even in troubling times. Really weak though, and not so heavy, is the lack of sonar. Safeguarding international and even Germany's local seas even means safeguarding the under water .... as we now know. Add a mini sub in one of the bays as an option!
Sorry Naval Enthusiast, but half of what you just explained about the F 125 class is not really correct. I myself did operate mainly on F 122 and F 123 fregates, but I did spend some time on other ships (f.e. AEGIS DD, Kortenaer). Before my time with the surface fleet I was a submariner for 8 years.
First of all, she is definetely not toothless and on the other hand she is not a battle ship either. A warship is all the time integrated into a Task Group or some kind of fleet, which always has more than just one defence line against all kind of threats. Even the strongest warship will not survive without being part of some kind of fleet.
Let us look at the different warfare areas: Anti Air Warfare (AAW), she is clearly not an Air defence ship, but she does have a good self air defence with RAM and the gun systems. By the way, there is always at least one big air defence ship within a TG.
For Anti surface warfare she uses the Harpoon at the moment, like a lot of other western warships, but she will be upgraded to an even much better system.
She will be able to fulfill a really good anti submarine warfare, together her two very modern ASW helicopters, they have a strong dipping sonar and some other sensors and they will use the MU 90 torpedo as effector. The ship itself is planned to be fitted with a "clipped on" Low frequency Towed Array System which is much better then any Bow Mounted or Hull Mounted Sonar, yes she does not have any torpedos on board, but she does not need them. Believe me, even the best ASW surface ship stands no chance against a modern submarine. As ASW Commander I would prefer my air assets for chasing a submarine. The time an ASW hunter uses his active sonar, he is dead!
Regarding the asymetric threat, she is much better suited for this then most of the other warships!
On every warship you have to live with some "negative side effects" and this is the case with this shipclass too, but as a commanding officer I could live with it. One of the only things I do not like about her, is the crew size, this is to small.
You should change the title of this video, because it is nonsense!
You missed the point. He is correct and you proved his point. For the size and payload of the frigate, it is unnecessary and too expensive and for the size is under armed.
The 127 mm (5") gun is for self defense (since it's useless for anything else), same with the RAM launcher. The only offensive weapon is the Harpoon ASCM, which is almost a stand alone weapons system. It's a USELESS ship, especially with that much displacement!
@@dundonrl LOl, what is your expertise? World of Warships. This guy is a professsional naval officer not a YT heroe.
I trust this guy more than all the YT experts only capable of reading stats.
@@jurgenmuller143”Trust me bro, I’ve got Wikipedia and a library card . So yeah I know what I’m talking about!”
@mikebuchner7781 You have no idea man . . . What was your ship? The migthy Moskva on the bottem of the black sea? This ship has a cheap radar, no VLS that could be armed for a mission, no asw. For this mission you can us a 50m ship, not a 150m ship.
This ship does exactly what it was designed and build for, and that's not a naval battle.
A frigate needs a month to reach a typical operations area and get back to Germany for maintenance.
So you lose 30 days of a 180 days mission.
F125 can stay for 2 years. So for the same mission you save 1/4 of a year.
So 4 ships have the same time at sea as 5 more conventional ships.
The European version of LCS.
An OPV or a Corvette but with a sice and cost of a destroyer.
Name me 1 Corvette with 2 helo's for ASW xD
@@kqckeforyou4433 Er, the LCS for one (or two to be precise), like OP said.
@@Daedy not Corvettes 😅 but Littoral combat ships. And OPVs
@@kqckeforyou4433 LCS were classified as corvettes until USN redesignated them as frigates actually.
emergency EVAC or evacuations are part of providing humanitarian (aid) support . . . humanitarian aid & evacuations are not 2 different mission profiles so to speak, rather EVAC is part of humanitarian aid missions . . . German Navy's core strength has always been conventional & guided missile fast attack submarines, that dates back as far as 1936 . . .
Das Schiff an sich ist vielleicht schwach bewaffnet... lieben Piraten dieses Schiff? Nein, Sie werden es fürchten! Die lange Seeausdauer macht es für den Piraten noch sehr viel unangenehmer, weil man nicht an diesem Schiff vorbeikommt. Ein modernes Schiff zeichnet sich nicht durch Geschwindigkeit oder Panzerung aus, sondern durch deren Technik und Fähigkeiten wofür es konzipiert ist. Und das an Bord befindliche Radar TRS-4 muss erst einmal überlistet werden. Viel Erfolg dabei....
Lets be real ASW are for the most in germany is trought Helicopter as it has more range than all and is more multi functional. Also F-125 was nether thought for conventional seawarfare in the first place. It has 2 RAM launcher (42 missiles) which for Self defense more as enough with RAM 2B. The future coming NSM are also hard hitting weapons for any ship. Also someone allways has to fight the small enemys where Baden Württemberg excels. Just ths internal design is a bit "depressing". In the end i hope that F-125 will get new technolgys fast. The new Laser system, New EW capabilitys which probaly all come with F-126 and F-127 can be tested on F-125. Also MLG 27 4.0 has to come for more 27mm then just 100 shots.
Also asw with the ships weapon and Sonar is for the most out of range of Submarines. Modern 324 to 400mm Torpedos have up to 8- 20km range and Something like 533mm takes very mutch volume and only in the region of up to 60km for the most. So subs carries for the most 533mm up to 40 -60km. Now at top speeds most 324mm dont go over 12km. Also as far as i know Submarines have it easier to detect a ship so why even bother to fight something you probaly cant defeat in the first place. Thats why F-126 has no Torpedo tubes.
It's just sad seeing such a beautifully designed ship coming out 10yrs too late............. if NATO was still fighting ISIS this magnificent beast would have been lauded as a game changer presenting an alternative to using Tomahawk for low-value targets(100km is an unbelievable range). But in the middle of the war, while Ukraine demonstrates how truck-mounted AShM can wreak havoc on anything even close to the coast, the future of this big hulled beauty looks bleak in an increasingly hostile environment.
PS. I do not understand why has everyone simply gone over the fact that this 7500t ship has the Air defense of a 3000t corvette.
@@kubersharma1430 because for self defense its enough
Half of the excess weight could get eliminated by geting rid of the compound names😂
While it may seem strange, it has uses. Rear areas needs to be patrolled as well, allowing the better armed ships to fight on the front-lines!
Fine video. I think this ship is just enough for its own in the peace time we have now, but in a war situation, the ship will alone, not be very able to defend it self, but that is also just non realistic situation. In case of some kind of war, big or small, the ship will be part of a strikeforce, combined with Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Belgium, French, and UK forces. Maybe also Norwegian ships. All countries that will operate in northern part of Europe. I also think that these ships will not operate alone without the German Type 212A Submarine supporting them. Beside this, when the new Type F126 Frigats, which 6 have been ordered, start to come, the German navy will be quite potent.
Calling out this ship for its lack of weapon systems is like criticizing a race car for a lack of passenger capacity. Its simply built for other purposes. The huthi attacks show that the reasons why this ship was built are still valid.
At the time they build this ship the could have got the Huitfeld class for the fraction of the price
There is still enaugh space between the two towers to place the two RBS MK15 launcher wich the German Corvette still have.
In some ways it's impressive that they managed to build one of the largest possible frigates with no anti-sub capacity and only arm it as much as a corvette and yet it still came in over weight, thus leaving no future proofing, how they managed that eludes me.
Has anti-sub capacity. There is also place for a Towed Sonar in theory but right now i think that room is a storage room
"largest possible frigates"
Heh. TKMS recently revealed their pitch for the new F127 class. 12,000 tons, 220 meters in length and 100+ VLS cells. That will make them the longest surface combatants after the Kirov class.
And they're gonna call it a _Frigate_ . I am not kidding.
meanwhile the UK Spain France and Italy built frigates that are a mini destroyer
@@jonny2954Destroyers are too aggressive.....
@@dwwolf4636 Which is odd considering they had Destroyers in service before.
Anyone know how much the new plan carrier cost?
A very expensive design built for fighting lesser opponents that can only function as a large long endurance patrol ship in the present climate
They can do more BUT you can't forget when it was designed there was no more anymore. Nobody has seen something like the ukraine war coming so the Design was a good idea and it is
@@kqckeforyou4433 I don’t disagree. It is just an example of a very expensive long endurance patrol ship
@@khorweesiong thats not true. It is a big proof of Concept ship. New 127mm Gun, Radar, EW Suit, Electronic system and new standards.
@@kqckeforyou4433 Pardon my ignorance but what are the concepts they are trying to prove?
@@khorweesiong ah i maybe said it wrong but here as i stated a whole shit is new. Propulsion, Radar, EW with KORA, 127mm and Vulcano. New Standards and crew Reduction things and more. All of this is new in this class which is why it is a proof of concepts ship or activ test bed?. Its a question on how ond looks at it
Those are terrible warships, I despise them.
Who designs a frigate in the 2010s without VLS?
Instead they have water cannons and the same anti-air capabilities as a Dutch support ship. I'm very sure the idea behind the F125 is fending off Somali pirates, humanitarian missions and nothing else. They don't even provide anything to a fleet they'd join, like a Sachsen-class could (except cooling off deck crews on a hot day, with their stupid water cannons).
Also they named one of these atrocities after my home state and that means that name won't be used for the far superior and much prettier F126.
"I'm very sure the idea behind the F125 is fending off Somali pirates, humanitarian missions and nothing else." you are indeed right. Which is also the description of the ship in the BW website and in Wikipedia. So its baffeling that this guy apparently didnt read that.
some more powerful frigates will be F126 and F127
This has less armament than the poropsed UK type 31.
The light armament is disastrous. It is very nice to talk about asymmetric warfare. The F125 armament is about the same as a corvette of the K130 class, apart from a bigger gun. But nearly before the commissioning of the last of the F 125, asymmetrical warfare has already changed. Drones, mostly flying, and also drone boats have changed the threat possibilities considerable. To fight drones and not only defend the ship, the missing vertical launch system puts the F125 at a complete disadvantage. It is also questionable if the complete waiver of any anti u-boat armament was sensible. I could imagine cheap u-boat drones appearing in "asymmetrical" warfare. I am of the opinion, that there was little time spent on imaginations how asymmetrical warfare could develop. A bad move, thinking about how these ships will be around for several decades.
Destroyers are the navy's workhorse😊
A naval warship not designed for naval warfare…😂 What a great idea.
The only real effective use I could see is deterring the giant Chinese fishing fleets stripping the waters off Africa and South America. It would have great blue water endurance and would make a good show of force to someone without real weapons . It has no place in a real fight for sure. Even Iran's swarm boats would quickly overwhelm its defenses. It seems the only real place it would be effective is off the African coast doing anti piracy or helping small nations with illegal fishing (which is probably the bigger problem).
Oh it can hurt. Just because it has no VLS doesnt mean it can't hurt. The whole Concept of this Ship is a proof of concepts with mission in the region of anti pirate and land attack where if we dont count missiles. And thats good enough
@@kqckeforyou4433No it's not.
These are the mainstay of the German navy.
No inherent ASW capability.
No VLS.
Useless for NATO.
Irans small speed boats are exactly the kind of weapon systems its guns are made for. It has more machine guns than other fregates and could thus hold them off very well.
They just sum up the German military atm
Well it could fight ISIS and Somali pirates but nothing more. Interestingly truck mounted AShM makes the "100 km" cannon useless for surface operations unless anyone wants to risk another moskova.
It's probably a YT channel run by a teenager from somewhere in the Midwest who doesn't have a clue about the geography of Europe or the state of the Baltic or North Sea fleets, because there is simply no fleet in Europe's marginal seas and the Mediterranean that questions the superiority of European navies at sea. Above all, even without the USA, the European states have complete air superiority thanks to dozens of air bases from Spain to Greece, from Norway to Malta.
To fight chinese fishers
Germany just choosing Peace
They're a people that needs to get off their damn knees and stop saying they're sorry already. If you're going to build a warship build a ship of war. Otherwise don't endanger sailors by sending them out on poor excuses for a warship that barely deserves that title.
All Baden-Württemberg classes get MK 41 VLS in the 8 cell configurtation i think its already worked out with raytheon and the US. Its annoying that it takes so long but we are already notorious that we are incapable of getting shit done because of our bureaucracy! Speaking of bureaucracy last week in our employee kitchen when we had a goverment control a goverment official took our microwave away from us because its a fire hazard! No shit sherlock but the stove is fine or what? Its so absurd they literally throw stones in front of your path everywhere all the time. We need to get rid of these massive amounts of rules in germany!
I personally guess it´s the biggest mistake the german Navy has ever made and the biggest waste of money I´ve seen so far...these capabilities could be easely done by a normal patrol vessel of half the size. So in my point of view it is the largest and most expensive patrol boat I´ve ever seen in my live.
Make a video on nilgiri class frigate
It's not operational yet in the IN
Please allow me to give you some hints about pronounciation: in German the letter y is very often pronounced like the german letter ü. Second: the letters th are NOT pronounced like in English. No matter if there is a simple t or a th, it is pronounced like a simple t. And the letter u is ALWAYS pronounced like in the word bush. You pronounced Lürssen right! now pronounce the y in Thyssen like in Lürssen and the th like a simple t. "Tüssen" so to say. And Krupp is with the u as in the word bush.
"The baden wurttemberg cannot be expected to hold it's own against another equivalent sized warship"
Brah, I know you're trying to be polite, but a single (if supported by some other ISR asset ofc) **single 200 ton FAC built after 1980** has a pretty reasonable chance to beat all 4 F125s. This ship is a joke for anything other than coast guard duties.
Most armed merchant cruisers from WW2 era could give it a good fight whilst a Tribal or Fletcher would murder it. It is big though so if they took the canon off the front perhaps it could be used as a hospital ship? Or provide disaster relief. Hope it doesn't venture too near Somali waters, my money would be on the pirates. Bet it would then get armed to the teeth. I wonder who the German Defence Minister was at the time, probably Ursula or someone of that ilk(lets rely on a malign foreign Government for all our energy and disarm at the same time).
What a waste of money,,,
Classic military industrial complex making a quick buck!
At least we don’t have to worry about those thieving Chinese stealing this design.😉
No VLS in a combat ship >7000 tons....
Well the Disaster-Ship got lots of Mistakes:
- As expensive as four #Elbphilharmonie concert halls in Hamburg.
- The ship is listing 1.3 degrees to starboard, as listed in a confidential addendum to the armament report after the 2017 trials.
- The promised ammunition is not available for the new ship gun and made by an Italian Company.
- The frigate is overweight. It was already discovered in 2016 that the Baden-Württemberg exceeded the contractually agreed weight by 178 tons.
- The naval officer says that when they were planned, no one thought that the Navy would ever have to fight at sea.✋😆🍷
- At that time, "stabilization missions" were the focus of the German army. The frigates can therefore take special forces on board and have helicopters and four speedboats with them. They can detect divers approaching the ship, but the crew would not even notice if a submarine or torpedo was heading towards them. They cannot defend themselves against submarines or torpedoes at all.
- Wrong Fire Protection Color inside was painted.
- The underwater paint on the hull didn't hold either. It chipped off over large areas, allowing mussels to attach themselves to the hull.
- much more.....
Why did Germany build such a big ship with so few weapons? Because the German military is the perfect example of a "Toothless Tiger".
Thank the German left for never tiring of reminding others of Germany's aggressive past. They need to get off their knees already.
no, because that is what it was designed for: "They are primarily designed for low and medium intensity maritime stabilization operations, where they are supposed to provide sea-to-land tactical fire support, asymmetric threat control at sea and support of special forces." and "for future peacekeeping and peacemaking missions."
The ASW Frigates are the Brandenburg-Class and their replacement the F126
And the AA Frigates are the Sachsen-Class and their replacement the F127
most useless ship in Germany's Navy, they should donate it to a country.
Ridicolous? All that weight for nothing, no capabilities, no Cruise missiles, no land attack capability, no big gun for land support, no rocket artillery, no air defenses of the best European manufecter like the Aster 30 NT or even the Iris -T ER or the CAMM ER, the only weapon that maybe can hit a couple of targets beyond 300km is the RBS 15 MK3 Gungnir but the rest is just ridicolous doesnt make sense that a country like Germany was always a paper tiger on water since WW 2 and the U-boat fleet, why such a huge ship for spending fuel or just to impress i think, Germany is a enigma never invested in a Cruise missiles or a heavy anti ship missile the Swedish sell the missile and i know why is like the Taurus KEPD that SAAB Defence develop and some german company contribute and TDW made the warhead but that missile is total Swedish now they want some thecnological development in the RBS 15 MK3 Gungnir that i have a felling that will start to be co-produced with Germany, why such a huge ship when they never wanted to jointly develop the FREMM or other design, because the arrogance of the made in Germany they are not selling more then the Italians, arrogant bastards! So why not buy a destroyer from France or Italy?! They want to sell thats their only compromise more then the defence of Germany, why not jointly develop in Europe something to equipe with a European Cruise missiles and a great land and ship attack missile like the TESEO EVO or the RBS 15 MK3 Gungnir and the SCALP Naval MDCN with extended range from 1200 to 1600km and a new missile from the Aster 30 NT that have a range superior to 160km and a new upgraded version is easily capable of defending a ship to 250km easily, a common Torpedo like the Black Shark Torpedo heavy Torpedo and the MU 90 for submarine warfare and the Milas to strike far targets above water or dived, they have everything already like a couple of 35mm Millennium gun or a MLG 27 NG a awesome 27x148mm cannon with 1700rds/min and is powerful as the 30mm. Is all about Europe arrogance from some countries with the arrogant tought of being superior, period thats why Europe will never go nowhere because Germany just use Europe as a export pool and some more influence and soft power around the globe but they dont respect Europe