Exactly. And mfs think GOWR & Spiderman 2 has better "narrative" 😂 Just cuz Elden Ring's narrative isn't in your face, doesn't mean it has no narrative. Once you dive deep into the lore, it's one of the best narratives in gaming history.
Yup. What’s more promising is that Miyazaki said that the Shadow Lands are in George R.R. Martins original lore-book for Elden Ring. We’re really about to get peak lol I agree with the person above me, I am truly baffled when hearing Sony players complain about Fromsoft’s storytelling. The worldbuilding and story is more unique and has more complexity than anything they’d produce even 4 years from now😂 Michael Zak (and GRRM) is literally just built different
@@muramasa870elden rings lore is more fascinating for sure, dark souls lore is over avter ds3 and bb is just a lovecraft related lore, not much to be impressed of, sonytards just have to bring it up when they feel suffocated by elden ring game/lore/art design superiority
If Mesmer was a dragon communion guy, maybe his huntiing of dragons and eating their hearts was the reason the dragons invaded Lyndell at all, because a demigod was hunting them. idk just a thought
but is there a ancient dragon that drops a dragon heart? I may be wrong, but I think they only drop from their lesser relatives, and if so, i don't think the ancient dragons would start a war for it
@@cpupyroheart5716still might have some truth to it, we don’t really know much about the ancient dragons in that regard, things could have been different In the before-times
@@joaovictorrodrigueskosugi4936 the modern dragons may be lesser but i dont think its too much of a stretch to think the ancient dragons wouldn’t take kindly to their kin being hunted. Its only a matter of time before people start wondering how the ancient dragons could aid in their transformation
Its not a matter of opinion, its infact someone else saying this. Messmers voice actor when he does the "bereft of light" line sounds completely different. Not sure why Zio didnt catch that.
Idk my instinct was always that it was the same voice, just a different tone for each line one calm and composed and one alot more passionate and antagonistic. I mean it could easily be 2 different people but the voices just have a very similar feeling of a serpent-like undertone to me that makes me think it is Messmer's voice in both lines. Or maybe I'm tone deaf i guess we'll find out.
This is just a wild speculation I'm making, but I actually think Messmer might be a figure who took all the blame to help establish his mother's Golden Order. George R.R. Martin often takes reference in European history for his work, and I immediately thought of Vlad the Impaler after learning Messmer's full name and title. Despite being associated with the infamous vampire Dracula in Bram Stoker's gothic horror novel, a lot of people in Romania consider him a great hero who desperately tried to establish order in a dire situation despite his ruthless and bloodthirsty methods. Also, a lot of times in the DLC trailer, the main figure who is often portrayed as 'the villain' ended up having noble intentions despite their flaws (i.e. Artorias from DS1, Gael from DS3, Ludwig from Bloodborne).
It's very interesting too because Vlads father and grandfather came from modern day Albania and fled to Bulgaria then Transylvania running from the Turks and this give me heavy warrior refugee vibes that's all over certain characters in Elden Ring
Interestingly enough, both Vlad Tepes and Messmer share a dragon motif; Vlad's father was "Vlad The Dragon" and Messmer has that winged snake familiar and possible dragon communion eyes.
“ in one so bereft of light” makes me think that messmer was missing from the lands between before godfrey was banished, otherwise the dialogue would call us “tarnished”.
We don’t have the full context of that dialogue so let’s not jump to conclusions. It’s currently out of context in the trailer and more can easily be said.
What if Messmer was actually the firstborn child of Radagon and Marika? Perhaps one reason for the absence of any written records or mention of him is because he was cast out or exiled. It seems they attempted to erase every trace of his existence. The manner in which he speaks during the trailer, "Mother, wouldst thou truly Lordship sanction, in one so bereft of light?" suggests he may have believed himself to be the most suitable candidate for the throne. This is just a theory, however.
@@Dee-i2y The walking mausoleums also hold the bodies of soulless demigods, they are Marika's unwanted children, maybe he is one of the unwanted children that didn't have their soul destroyed
I like the idea that Messmer is the child of Marika and Radagon, while Godfrey was still Elden Lord and on his conquest. It's in line for a G.R.R Martin story.
This could possibly be why Godfrey and Marika split up. Godfrey discovering that Marika was messing around would threaten her image and in retaliation she banished him before he could expose her 🤷🏽♂️
This is definitely one of the more obscure parts of Elden Ring's lore. To me the Giant's Braid whip mentioning the fact that Radagon always hated his own hair color is a hint that Marika used giant's blood to make him. She was a Numen, from which the original Albinaurics descend from. It makes sense that she would look for ancient magic to make herself a new husband. And considering Radagon's wolf also has red fur and wields magic, it's almost obvious that he himself was like an Albinauric from the Consecrated Snowfield. Maybe he was grafted to his wolf when he first met Rennala on the battlefield. Back on the war against the Giants, I aways assumed Godfrey had to burn the Erdtree the firsrt time around to reach the Elden Ring. Around the same time period Marika broke the rune of Death to make the Golden Order, creating Thoso who Live in Death by proxy. Then she hid ~what she believed was~ the only piece of Destined Death at the Heart of the Storm beyond Time. I really hope the DLC expands upon the elements involved in this part of the story, because the transition from Godfrey's Order to Radagon's Golden Order was all about adding magic to the understanding of the world. Going through giants' and dragons' flames, as well as many aspects of the Crucible. This may be the land from which Marika stole Destined Death from the Gloam-Eyed Queen. That decaying skeleton-horsething screams "Godskin" to me. They at least HAVE TO give us one area to explore red glintstone. No one is mentioning the thornlike shadows within Messmer's flames. The Fire monks use bloodthorn spells against us. That's enough proof that bloodthorns are also related to fire. Thorns are pretty much the missing link between fire and death.
@@derieksimon6260 Well, the whole purpose of banishing the warrior lineage was to for them to be away from the meddling of Greater Will, so that when Marika herself initiated her scheme by shattering the ring and fatally weakens the Greater Will, the Tanished (or more specifically, Godfrey) could then return to finish the job. I personally don't think Godfrey was being cheated or anything like that, since he seem to be quite enthusiastic about his return to home lol.
It’s wild that Miyazaki was dangling the release date of the DLC right in our faces with AC6. Having our mech’s callsign being 621 makes so much sense now.
@MelancholyPepper well it could have been translated into the way we write dates here, because originally in Japanese it wouldn't have been either or, he could have had the team that translates make sure that the 6/21 was put into the game for the reason of future telling the date of the ER DLC
Look at the flame sling and fire's deadly sin incant descriptions, it talks of a prophet who saw the flames of ruin within the faith who received banishment for seeing this, directly invoking the phrase cardinal sin. This is probably about Messmer and would explain why he's stuck in the land of shadow as well as why snakes are considered a symbol of traitors of the erdtree.
No it's talks about PROHETS, prophets in Elden ring are apart of the golden order and follow the erd trees teachings/greater will, the description says "the flame of ruin is anathema to the erdtrees. But prophets sometimes glimpse it within the faith all the same. Sadly when this occurs their sole reward is banishment" many prophets have seen the burning of the erdtree and when spoken outloud they are shackled and banished forever to wander nowhere does it claim a single prophet nore insinuate please re read lore
And the fires deadly sin talks about when prophets seen the burning of the erdtree, they were then shackled and banished which is what happend to you if you picked the prophet beginning
I took a closer look at it, and they are REALLY similar but not the same. The Dung Eater's sun has the rays of the sun around it and it's more circular, while the face on the Wicker man is more oval and it has circular patterns and horns around it. Also if we wanna be really specific, the faces also have slight differences, but it clearly shares many similarities. One reason why i believe why they might share a common meaning is because Dung Eater was born a human with the soul of an Omen, and the Wicker man has horns similar to that of the omens around the giant mask.
@muramasa870 That's even more suspicious because in the DLC trailer, we see orange flames clowe to the color of the crucible and new crucible incantations...
His fire is so differwnt tho. Am I tripping when I see like black barbed vines (briar) flowing from his flames? I feel his fire is blasphemy itself, the original sinful flame. There's so many iterations of flame in Elden ring, his is the only one that carries characteristics of more than one type of flame
Definitely looks like a mix between fire and thorn sorcerey. Messmer likely created this flame himself rather than happen upon it by accident. Its even called "Messmer's Flame" in the trailer so it's likely a completely new school of fire incantations
@@antonironstag5085 ooh good note there, it is specifically called messmers flame. I do wonder though if maybe the iterations of flame and briar in the base games are just parts and pieces of the original messmers flame. Like since he was erased from history, if people in the lands between stumbled upon bits and pieces of his legacy and misinterpreted it, thus causing all these other schools that are just parts or aspect of his original. My head canon is going wild sorry if this is unhinged Bois
@@Sadonyx Rykard developed the gelmir sorceries from ancient hexes. Given the snake imagery in Volcano Manor, those “hexes” could also be a part of Messmer’s flame
The view out the front door of the Impaler's Catacombs is of the Cathedral of Dragon Communion and Redmane Castle. An interesting coincidence, considering the Dracula "son of the dragon" and red hair of Messmer the Impaler.
I've always wondered why it looks like the golden part of the erdtree looks like an illusion while the part you go into isn't glowing and looks like actual wood, maybe the golden part is covering up previous damage done by a burning in the past
Could also be new growth, when trees grow or are damaged they start the process of growing/regrowing branches which tend to be a much lighter color than the older parts of the tree.
After brushing up on Celtic mythology, I'm convinced that Messmer is akin to Lugh and Miquella is akin to Bres the beautiful. Lugh's weapon was a firey spear and he was sometimes shown with a two headed snake wrapped around him. He was also known to wield fire. Bres was also called Eochu Bres or, :the beautiful horseman." Sometimes just called Eochaid. He was the beautiful son of of the one-eyed Balor and was the lord of the Formorians. He was made kind when Nuada was disqualified due to the loss of his hand. Bres was known to be a bad king who made their equivalent of Zeus dig ditches. Lugh was also know as, "Lugh of the Long Arm." Lugh was also half god and half giant and killed the Dagah, the, "Good God," who controlled life and death and was the father of druids. He also lead the fight vs the Formorians and killed the one-eyed lord of the Formorians, Balor, who was also his father.
@@TomClarke1995 Well, that just made things interesting. I just did some researching and the Marais Executioner's sword has this in it's description: "Elemer of the Briar, the Bell Bearing Hunter, snatched the sword from the site of his looming execution, and furnished it with battle skills from his home of Eochaid". More Interesting though, is this part of the description of it's smaller brother, The Regalia of Eochaid: "Treasured sword of Eochaid, a lesser, long-vanished domain".
The line "Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death. In the embrace of Messmer’s flame" could be taken as a warning that siding with Messmer was death. Almost like if you had fought on his side it was a losing battle. Messmer could have tried to go against the erd tree and failed. The betrayal he committed in maybe attempting to burn the tree caused anything about him to be wiped from history in the same sense as the nameless king from ds3. And those that followed him had to hide from the light of the erd tree.
Melina is a child of Marika as she verbatim said she was born at the foot of the Erdtree 🫥. She isn’t some random female who just had divine powers and information about the world for no reason 📰. Here is a quote: “Me, I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago, for the reason that I yet live, burned and bodyless.There is something for which I must apologize. I've acted the finger maiden yet I can offer no guidance, I am no maiden.My purpose was long ago lost...”
I think Ranni and Melina is working under the influenced of Miquella to find him the "Promised Lord" which is us. The Spirit Calling Bell and the Steed Whistle belongs to Miquella which is given to us by Ranni and Melina.
@@LyricSnowe How do I love to argue when all I did was provide a quote to explain something 🤨? If anyone wants to argue it’s definitely you because you’re instigating an argument right now by making baseless assumptions about individuals you don’t know 🫥🤡😕.
Horah Loux is also depicted as being impaled against a tree in his introduction at the very start of the game. The trailer also shows enemies with the Brave's armour set, which is unavailable in the main game but found in the game files. It is described as being worn by warriors who took part in the long march. I'd wager the badlands is actually a part of the lands of shadow. Perhaps that is why the tarnished lack the grace of gold in the first place, the veil over the lands of shadow restricts the light of the erdtree. While history remembers Godfrey being "hounded" from the capital, Marikas own words to Godfrey and the tarnished sound much more like a farewell, as if she knows full well that their excursion would strip them of the erdtrees' protection, meaning they would fight and die in the lands of shadow, unable to return. Perhaps that's why she sent Godfrey in the first place, as her champion he would have been the only person she trusted enough to lead a force into a land of no return. This is all speculation of course, but it's currently my running theory alongside the potential that Messmer is potentially a illigitimate child of the Markia/Radgon rebis who was born before Marika named Godfrey Elden Lord, due to his links to a time period closer to the crucible rather than Radagon's rein as elden lord. Marika naming Godfrey Elden Lord would have immediately illigitimized any claim Messmer would have had to his lineage, fueled his grudge with Godfrey and the tarnished, and giving motive for his crimes against the erdtree.
I only mean to kindly put foward, around 2:00-2:41 you state that his emblem is a nail, but id like to challenge that and say its a spear with a spear shoe at the end. Its meant for balance but also its a weapon as well, the rounded shape suggests that it would be used to counterbalance and to knock an enemy prone to being smashed in the skull. You also state that the snake growing theough his chest is unlike any enemy weve seen but take note of the Red Assassin guy innthe Consecrated Snowfields. He has a snake that grows out of his wrist during combat! So cool
And remember that Malenia (and stuff associated with her) are full of butterfly motifs. That includes Malenia's appearance as the Goddess of Rot, Scarlet Rot claims to promote "transformation" (which Millicent committed suicide to avoid), and Scarlet Rot's association with insects in general.
I think that messmer is the old leader of the fire monks and lead them in the war of the giants to get the giants flame because his flame being a mix of abberant sorcery and giantsflame, the smouldering butterflies in their camps, the spears in their camps and the abberant sorcery spears in the dead giants.
If you go to your map go look at the *ERDTREE* Zoom all the way in, go walk up to your tv and look closely the tree is TRANSLUCENT, you can see the mountains and roads through it
@@cyberius14 The 6 people who liked my comment obviously see it too , either you have a BOOTLEG elden ring game lol (not literally just clownin) or you’re just trolling looking for an argument because I know what I see bro, those cliff, roads, whatever it is you can literally see it through the tree im not gonna argue with u about it
The thing is that the smouldering butterfly could still apply to Melina, and it could be used as even more evidence to us burning the tree for a second time. Since she has burn scars on her hands, it could mean that when we commit the cardinal sin of burning the Erdtree, it's not the first time she set herself ablaze, and she may have been the kindling maiden for Messmer in the first burning of the Erdtree. As for the butterflies, since we need to use the Giant's Flame to burn down the Erdtree, and we know that the Flame comes from an outer God, and the only way to use an Outer God's power is to be their Empyrean, we could see Melina serve as a temporary Empyeran (since she says herself that she's been stripped of her body, and because of Ranni sacrificing her body to cut ties to her two fingers we know that having a physical body is a requirement) to channel the power of the Giant's Flame and burn the Erdtree. Sorry if I explained myself poorly, english is not my first language.
Not just Melina, all the maidens can sacrifice themselves to burn the Erdtree (read Vyke's Story) so the smouldering butterfly definitely symbolizes Messmer, I know Melina is special and maybe she is linked to Messmer in some way we don't know yet
What if Melina and Messmer are counterparts like Marika/Radagon? - First of all they both have their left eyes closed. When we saw Marika transforming to Radagon they were both missing half a torso and most of their left arms so I'd assume some kind of damages won't change. - First two characters with dualities both had a female and a male counterparts so it's logical to think Melina would have a male counterpart too. - Messmer was erased from history it would explain why we have little to no information about Meilna. - They supposedly share similar goals in burning the erdtree. - Melina says her mother is inside the erdtree and her in file name is "MaricaOfDaughter" safe to assume she is a daughter of Marika and Radagon and just like Miquella, Malenia and their third child confirmed by Miyazaki Messmer they all share the same initial M. - Also Melina clearly doesn't have a body just like Ranni (the only character who talks about Melina) they can both appear and disapear similarly. Melina was severed somehow from her body maybe when they tried to burn the erdtree? Then either Ranni was inspired by Melina to cast away her own body too (thus escaping the greater will) now that she knows it's possible OR the other way around.
@thinhtran647 but if you read the lore, when she did that, nothing happened. And with the loss of his maiden bernahl lost faith in the purpose of the tarnished and became a recusant
This wasn't mentioned in the video but I feel like Messmer could've also been the one to have impaled Horah Loux. In the game's beginning cutscene we see that Horah Loux suffers the same impalement as Marika. And we know that grace was removed from Godfrey's eyes and maybe to tie up loose ends for the sake of The Golden Order... Messmer was directed by the Greater Will to slay him.
Has anyone else noticed that when Messmer's flames are being displayed above him, that it's similar to the image of the Erdtree burning? Also that the flame itself is reminiscent of Giant's flame? Not to mention that Messmer has hair more akin to the giants than Radagon? Perhaps Messmer is the child of a giant and Marika pre Erdtree...
That would be dope and is actually a fair assumption and I hope it's true, it never made any sense as to why she left that one fire giant alive just to protect the fire when she could have had someone else do it, I mean why the hell would she leave a crippled giant up there to be a guard instead of someone more capable
I had a thought. Messmer the Impaler impales people on spikes. The giants were impaled on spikes, now Messmer is sealed away in the land of shadows. Godfrey was in charge of dealing with the giants on the mountaintop. I wonder if part of the reason Marica divorced him and banished him was cause he knew of Messmer before he got sealed away and she didn't want that loose end dangling.
I recently replayed ER since the release of the trailer and noticed this dialog also. Back then it made no sense but now I think you are on to something, I believe it's Mesmer the ghost is referring to also
Messer's look and main part of his symbol is based on the Caduceus. The staff of Hermes. Twined serpents wrapped around a staff adorned with wings. The word is from the Greek root meaning “herald's wand” and was a badge of diplomatic ambassadors associated with commerce, eloquence, alchemy, thievery, and lying. now is used as a symbol of healing through out most of the world. It came to be associated with a precursor of medicine in the seventh century, based on the Hermetic astrological principles of using the planets and stars to heal the sick.
The only problem I see with Messmer being the reason why snakes are taboo traitors is the fact that he would also be younger than that tradition, same as the perfumers and Rykard. The Gladiators represents a time under Godfreys rule, which is before Miquella, Melania, and Messmer were born. So how can the gladiators be clad in snakes that the audience loved seeing crushed if snakes were not symbols against the Erdtree before Messmer? The Serpent Sword also suggests that snake worship is really ancient, right? Messmer wouldn't be that ancient if he is of Marika and Radagon. I personally think the snakes have been symbols of sacrilege for a very long time, so long that theres no recorded reason as to why, similar to the snake symbol in real life. Many thing snakes have their spiritual reputation because of christianity with the snake in the garden of eden being the devil himself, but it is much older than that. We can see rituals from 17,000 years ago in Europe where snakes are ritualistically decapitated, and pretty much all old religions have deep mysteries about snakes where they represent things like mortal life, death, and rebirth. They are the dragons of the earth and sea. If this is what Miyazaki draws upon then it makes sense for snakes to just naturally be the enemies of that which seeks to bypass the natural cycle of life, death, and rebirth. It would be really cool if we got to see an Elden Ring version of the old norse rebirth mythology where people basically walk down the river of death until they end up on a beach where giant snakes devours them, sending them to be reborn. As for what I think, I think Messmer also deopted the snakes like everyone else we've seen. I think they are part of his affliction, as all the children of Marika and Radagon are supposed to be afflicted. And in typical Marika fashion, taboo afflictions in her children causes her to shun them, just like Mohg and Morgott. You can bet she would do something similar or worse to a son born with snakes growing out of him. He is the villain/fallen angel to Miquellas antichrist.
We know that when Marika and Radagon had children, they were: - Twins - One had red hair (Malenia) and the other blonde hair (Miquella) - The names started with M That makes me think Messmer and Melina could be twins too. Melina is kinda blonde while Messmer has red hair, both names start with M and they are both children of Marika as far as we know
Or they are the same person, and melena is just the puppet with an eyemark from casting off her demigod flesh, like ranni's puppet. Also fits the common theme in their family of being both male and female figures like Maricka/Radagon and Miquella/Trina.
Melina’s hair is either red and blonde, or pink and platinum. I think it indicates age maybe? And she is actually messmers sister and originally his finger maiden.
In regards to the topic of Melina - I do think Melina is a child of marika. One thing I never hear anyone talking about is Melina’s connection to torrent. I’ve seen theories that torrent is miquella’s horse - if so, why is it that Melina is the one to deliver torrent to the player? This implies some connection between Melina and miquella … perhaps a familial one? Idk that makes the most sense to me, but pls lmk what you all think.
Torrent, the wolf ashes and the Spirit Calling Bell were all Miquella's. This means Melina and Ranni were at least in communication with Miquella at some point. Ranni asks about Torrent before giving you the Bell and the ashes, like she was tasked to do so. I think Miquella is pulling a lot of strings behind the scene.
As mentioned in other theories, Marika is a dual-aspected being, like "the rebus" in alchemy. Male and female aspects within a single being. Marika and Radagon. 2 souls, 1 body. I think the smoldering butterfly represents both Messmer and Melina. Going further than that, just like Marika, I believe they were two aspects of one individual. An empyrean. The gloam-eyed queen. Godwyn was "the first of the demigods to die" yet the gloam-eyed queen (an empyrean) was defeated by maliketh before this. I believe that Marika's first child was the gloam-eyed queen and upon their defeat, their body was burned and their dual-aspected nature separated. One half banished to the shadow lands, Messmer, and the other becoming Melina. Miquella had to shed his physical form to reach the shadow lands. I believe Messmer is trapped there because he lacks one. I think it's possible Miquella may be there to find a way to truly kill Godwyn's soulless body, perhaps because it's in danger of being possessed by the soul of Messmer. Miquella seems to be in an alliance with Ranni despite her murder of Godwyn, and the shadow lands may even be where Ranni travels when she slumbers. Ranni handling the problem of outer gods meddling with the lands between which Miquella desires, while Miquella handles the problem of Messmer possessing Godwyn's soulless husk. As an aside, I believe the shadow lands were created by Marika when she separated the Erdtree from the crucible. The shadow lands are all the undesireable aspects of the crucible that Marika separated to create a new golden order.
One thing that might be worth to mention. This is probably a stretch, but there is something about Messmer's face that resemble Melina's face. Also, the left eye of Melina is always closed, just as with Messmer. Also, his spear looks like a spear version of the Blasphemous blade
Thank you? Someone else noticed too. I can't believe how crazy ideas people have sometimes but this one makes so much sense. - First of all they both have their left eyes closed. When we saw Marika transforming to Radagon they were both missing half a torso and most of their left arms so I'd assume some kind of damages won't change. - First two characters with dualities both had a female and a male counterparts so it's logical to think Melina would have a male counterpart too. - Messmer was erased from history it would explain why we have little to no information about Meilna. - They supposedly share similar goals in burning the erdtree. - Melina says her mother is inside the erdtree and her in file name is "MaricaOfDaughter" safe to assume she is a daughter of Marika and Radagon and just like Miquella, Malenia and their third child confirmed by Miyazaki Messmer they all share the same initial M. - Also Melina clearly doesn't have a body just like Ranni (the only character who talks about Melina) they can both appear and disapear similarly. Melina was severed somehow from her body maybe when they tried to burn the erdtree? Then either Ranni was inspired by Melina to cast away her own body too (thus escaping the greater will) now that she knows it's possible OR the other way around.
I think Messmer is an Empyrean that is in in the Shadowrealm to escape Miquella. Miquella orchestrated all the events in Elden Ring to get rid of the other Empyreans. Night of the black knives was about crippling Marika and Ranni, He convinced Radahn to halt the stars to block Rannis ascension. He convinced Malenia to give up her Godhood somehow, probably because she loved him, and the Gloam Eyed Queen is presumably also pacified in some way. He then had to enter the Shadowrealm to get rid of the last Empyrean, but either got stuck or needs help dealing with Messmer, which is what we can choose to do in the DLC or defeat Miquella ourselves.
I still think he's a child of the previous god of the Lands Between: Gloam Eye Queen. Her consort was Placidusax, a dragon. Meaning Messmer's brother could have been Eiglay, the God Devouring Serpent. They're all related to the Crucible and hated the Golden Lineage/Order.
10:04 Messmer flames seem to create black branches, maybe depicting the first sin of erdtree being burned. that could be due to the erdtree being an ilusion of the great tree of the shadow real and the new order it brought to the lands between
Thanks ziostorm for mentioning Tarnished Archeologists theory. I found that TA's interpretations were deep and logical and no other major ER theorists and players seemed to mention him at all.
Messmer reminds me of Lucifer in a lot of places. First the snake being a symbol of traitor and ironically being rapped around the tree of knowledge being similar to some of the snake imagery we see ingame. Then with messmer being depicted as a sort of rebel, with all the blasphemous things like wielding fire and again the snake, dragon communion etc. And if he is a child of marika and radagon, he could've been considered as an empyrian ( whome you could say are considered as the "brightest of demigods"). Similar to how lucifer was considered one of if not the brightest of angels until he "rebelled" and was cast out , becoming the devil. So i thought that was interesting.
This is kinda just crazy speculation, but there are so many similarities between Melina and Messmer I really think Melina might be from the shadow lands too or have closer ties with Messmer than just brother and sister somehow. They both have ties with destined death, fire and burning the erd tree, having one eye closed, and probably being children of Marika who have been kind of cast aside or something. Idk where im going with this but they have to be tied somehow. Like maybe born around the same time or even twins or something idk.
I think Melina and Mesmer are twins like Miquella and Melania are but in the shadow lands. Melina said she “was left burned and bodiless” while by the Impailer’s catacombs refers to an unwanted, soulless child, whom most are now correlating to Mesmer. If Mesmer originally burned the Erdtree with Melina’s body with it, it could’ve been where Ranni, Rykard, and Miquella could’ve gotten the Plot to kill Godwyn. I’m still unsure why Melina is never mentioned anywhere and unknown, since she’d be the first demigod to “die.” It’s possible if she’s the creator of the black knives she could’ve been casted out by Marika but resummoned to the Erdtree to burn it again because she’s the only one who remembers what happened. I can’t think of a reason for Mesmer to become soulless and why there’d be such differing results between him and Godwyn
Probably from the same way that the entombed demi gods in the walking mausoleums became soulless. I think they will expand on it, because by game lore Godwyn had his soul destroyed and he died and was the first recorded demi god to die.
I bet that snake tail looking thing messmer has will have an attack that will poison you while he spits out that bloodfire that causes bleed and burn damage.
Melina finds a Tarnished and gives him Torrent, which is Miquella's steed. We know she's burned and bodiless, strangely enough Miquella also divested himself of his flesh to presumably enter the land of shadows (and free himself from the greater will/golden lineage). Fact is, Miquella recently asked Melina to find a chosen Tarnished, which confirms she came back from the land of shadows. The blade of calling states : Dagger given to one who set out on a journey to fulfill her duty long ago. So Melina had a task long ago and it had something to do with either the former burning of the Erdtree, the burning of the Shadow of the Erdtree, the flame of Destined Death or an unknown event (maybe related to Messmer or the unsung war). Anyway, her past duty is most probably the reason why she's burned and bodiless. Rambling over.
I agree with a lot of this, it’s a very good theory. But not the Marika part. The fact that the Elden Beast uses an attack identical to Marika’s crucifixion tells me all I need to know. I’ll admit the color of the spear is odd, but I still think the Elden Beast is to blame. Destined Death is a great rune after all, I don’t see why the Elden Beast wouldn’t be capable of using it itself.
the closed eye makes me wonder if he and melena arnt related like twins also. maybe she is destined to make up for his mistake of burningthe tree or maybe she was the one who did it for him in the past?
Hey man idk about the lore but I'm willing to bet we will be getting the missing heirloom talisman that increases arcane, and it will be related to Messmer, "the impaler's heirloom" or something
Yo i saw an interesting detail today comparing to the DLC trailer. The cleanrot knights weapon resemble both the impaller’s spear and possibly miquella’s halfmoon rune show in the trailer.
everything makes more sense if melina is merika's sister + also the gloam eyed queen ... their names are even more similar in japanese btw .... so it would then follow that the messmer is the third sibling of malenia and miquella and related to smoldering butterflies
It just dawned on me that liturgical town is possibly veiled and protected by black knifes hiding the haligtree, housing three factions (godwyns undead, rannis assassins, knight and albinaurics, and malenias rot kindred/knights) and broken into by mohg who like morgot uses some kind of veil and all these things are against or hunted by the golden order because they're not "compatible" with the golden order Strange bedfellows
A personal theory regarding Mesmer's and Melina's identity I came up with while watching videos analyzing the trailer: Since Elden Ring uses duality, split beings and (literally) trans-identity a lot - Marika/Radagon, Ranni and Godwyn etc. - I thought that Melina could be a part of Mesmer. Maybe his soul/being is split in another, yet unknown way. Where his "true self" resides in the Land of Shadow while Melina is another part/projection of him to enter and influence the Lands Between after being exiled. It would make sense thematically, aline with Melina literally burning herself to open the entrance to the Erdtree and fit into the "three butterflies theory". So Mesmer and Melina would both be children of Marika - or to be more precise - a single child of hers. Maybe being a split being as well (especially with the same male/female split) makes them the true Empyrean and "rightful" heir to Marikas reign!?
I love that everyone is starting to think this way! It hit me like a ton of bricks when I watched the dlc trailer and it fits all the themes sooooooo well.
i think messmer is miquella, the quote "blood must be spilled in that foresaken place" could be linked to mogwin palace since blood must be spilled to reach that place, we do see miquella's blood being spilled there too and not to mention, the striking similarity between messmer and miquella regarding the length of their hands
The Fire In Messer's Hand Looks Exactly Like The Fire In All The "Erdtree Aflame" Paintings. Like Even To The Little Glowy Gold Within The Flame Once It Forms In His Hand In The Close Up.
I feel like I've seen no one notices that his spear is really similar to the spears in the giants on the mountain tops. His attack shown in the trailer shows him making a multitude of spears in one attack, similar to the mountaintops. I think it'd make sense if he helped lead this attack, kept part of the giants flame, burned the tree, and then was banished
Hey Ziostorm, did you ever wondered what happened to the broken giant bridge looking ridiculously higher than the near divine tower? It can be seen on cinematic trailer scene depicting siege of Leyndell but I couldn't find it in actual game. Bridge seems like the ones usually connecting land to the Liurnia and Limgrave divine towers (with sword holding white statues, TA's "saint&tree stratum" architecture) and looked like to me unusually larger than it supposed to be. I don't think it was an extention of Leyndell ramparts but I may be wrong.
The symbol of the Confessors, on the cape of one of the starting classes no less, is a dagger going through two snakes. The confessors are assassins who hunt down enemies of the Erdtree. Messmer was here before you even got out of the character creator.
with the second trailer coming out we can see that he once led a war in the Land of Shadows, likely queen Marikas orders. i believe that he was used by her and when he realised this he got angry and wanted to burn down the erdtree. but how can he burn down the tree? either he was the first to steal destined death(we know it got stolen twice and one of the times was Ranni) or the more likely option is that, like said in the video, Messmers flame can already burn it because we can see that it is special and different and it has the same red-black hue as Malikeths fire. i then believe that he was banished and erased from history, which is why there is a weird gap between Godwyns throne and melania- and miquellas thrones. it makes sense for his throne to have been there to fill out the gap, because he is likely the son of Marika and Radagon because of his red hair. and we can see the way that the thrones are placed that Marika-Radagon children are to the right, while Radagon-Rennala are to the left. other cool theories: from cpupyroheart5716 Messmer did dragon communion and hunted dragons, and that is why he has the eyes and it is why the dragons attacked Leyndell Messmers flame looks like dragon communion seal because he was the first to use it, and it looks like flame of frienzy seal because flame of frienzy can burn EVERYTHING and so can his flame because... its special and from a demigod idk Messmer was the first child and was concieved before Radagon and Marika became the same person. we see in the second trailer that he was there (or very shortly after) when Marika ascended to godhood and made the erdtree. the Corpse she takes the stringy rune from could be a dead Radagon "Miquella the kind spoke of the beginning. the seduction. and the betrayal" Marika seduced Radagon because she needed him to ascend/create the erdtree, and then betrayed him by killing him in order to ascend/create the erdtree.
Maybe messmer is melina? I feel what we have missed out of in terms of significance is the sealing of the eye in characters may denote a split in spirit that allows dual manifestation of avatars with those who are pure emperiums. Miquella and malenia were born split but malania has a sealed eye too, and its likely miquella does too...all emperiums are two halves of a whole.
Now I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure in messmer’s voice line I don’t think he’s referring to us. But is actually talking about miquella, a Demi god who willingly divulged themself of grace. That statement can be found both in main game lore and the lore of the dlc.
what if the snakes are part of Messmer because of Blasphemous stuff like Rykard but clearly not to the same extent. but then has wings because he practiced Dragon Communion. so he got Dragon eyes and they grew wings because they were part of him so they were influenced by it as well
It is just crazy to me that the lore of ELDEN RING is going to get LARGER. Just letting that sink in. ER's lore is like a beautiful abyss to me
Exactly. And mfs think GOWR & Spiderman 2 has better "narrative" 😂
Just cuz Elden Ring's narrative isn't in your face, doesn't mean it has no narrative. Once you dive deep into the lore, it's one of the best narratives in gaming history.
Elden ring is my first souls game and I have been blown away by the depth
Yup. What’s more promising is that Miyazaki said that the Shadow Lands are in George R.R. Martins original lore-book for Elden Ring. We’re really about to get peak lol
I agree with the person above me, I am truly baffled when hearing Sony players complain about Fromsoft’s storytelling. The worldbuilding and story is more unique and has more complexity than anything they’d produce even 4 years from now😂
Michael Zak (and GRRM) is literally just built different
Bluds don't know the Dark Souls and Bloodborne depth💀 No one even fully uncovered it's lore
@@muramasa870elden rings lore is more fascinating for sure, dark souls lore is over avter ds3 and bb is just a lovecraft related lore, not much to be impressed of, sonytards just have to bring it up when they feel suffocated by elden ring game/lore/art design superiority
If Mesmer was a dragon communion guy, maybe his huntiing of dragons and eating their hearts was the reason the dragons invaded Lyndell at all, because a demigod was hunting them. idk just a thought
but is there a ancient dragon that drops a dragon heart? I may be wrong, but I think they only drop from their lesser relatives, and if so, i don't think the ancient dragons would start a war for it
@joaovictorrodrigueskosugi4936 to think of it, you are right. I dont think antient dragons drop them.
Idk it was just an idea i had.
@@cpupyroheart5716still might have some truth to it, we don’t really know much about the ancient dragons in that regard, things could have been different In the before-times
They don't drop hearts because their hide is too tough to cut through to get their hearts. Who knows what Messmer is capable of.
@@joaovictorrodrigueskosugi4936 the modern dragons may be lesser but i dont think its too much of a stretch to think the ancient dragons wouldn’t take kindly to their kin being hunted. Its only a matter of time before people start wondering how the ancient dragons could aid in their transformation
IMO, it's not Messmer who says "those stripped of the grace of gold..". Clearly a distinct voice from the "bereft of light" line.
I was about to say this too. Very different voices.
Its not a matter of opinion, its infact someone else saying this. Messmers voice actor when he does the "bereft of light" line sounds completely different. Not sure why Zio didnt catch that.
Idk my instinct was always that it was the same voice, just a different tone for each line one calm and composed and one alot more passionate and antagonistic. I mean it could easily be 2 different people but the voices just have a very similar feeling of a serpent-like undertone to me that makes me think it is Messmer's voice in both lines. Or maybe I'm tone deaf i guess we'll find out.
it not opinion bro..
Its fact
@@matthewgrigg1285this is what I thought as well, they sound similar, but just in different tones. Could be wrong though
This is just a wild speculation I'm making, but I actually think Messmer might be a figure who took all the blame to help establish his mother's Golden Order. George R.R. Martin often takes reference in European history for his work, and I immediately thought of Vlad the Impaler after learning Messmer's full name and title. Despite being associated with the infamous vampire Dracula in Bram Stoker's gothic horror novel, a lot of people in Romania consider him a great hero who desperately tried to establish order in a dire situation despite his ruthless and bloodthirsty methods. Also, a lot of times in the DLC trailer, the main figure who is often portrayed as 'the villain' ended up having noble intentions despite their flaws (i.e. Artorias from DS1, Gael from DS3, Ludwig from Bloodborne).
As a Romanian from Transilvania this similarity was pretty apparent to me too, it would be a very good plot in my opinion
It's very interesting too because Vlads father and grandfather came from modern day Albania and fled to Bulgaria then Transylvania running from the Turks and this give me heavy warrior refugee vibes that's all over certain characters in Elden Ring
Interestingly enough, both Vlad Tepes and Messmer share a dragon motif; Vlad's father was "Vlad The Dragon" and Messmer has that winged snake familiar and possible dragon communion eyes.
And i was gonna say i wonder if this is GRRMs character or was made later by fromsoft
@@schnoz2372the whole content of the dlc is in the original lore book made by GRRM ! witch is the best part
“ in one so bereft of light” makes me think that messmer was missing from the lands between before godfrey was banished, otherwise the dialogue would call us “tarnished”.
We don’t have the full context of that dialogue so let’s not jump to conclusions. It’s currently out of context in the trailer and more can easily be said.
agreed. my guess is Messmer is the last surviving child of the Gloam Eyed Queen and Placidusax and he's been hiding out in the Gloam, or shadows.
I actually think that is Miquella who says that refering to Messmer 🤔
So ye, that voice might actually be Miquella
@@whoisjthat is the most stupid thing I have ever heard
I’m getting so many Nameless King parallels from this guy
What if Messmer was actually the firstborn child of Radagon and Marika? Perhaps one reason for the absence of any written records or mention of him is because he was cast out or exiled. It seems they attempted to erase every trace of his existence. The manner in which he speaks during the trailer, "Mother, wouldst thou truly Lordship sanction, in one so bereft of light?" suggests he may have believed himself to be the most suitable candidate for the throne. This is just a theory, however.
@@Dee-i2y The walking mausoleums also hold the bodies of soulless demigods, they are Marika's unwanted children, maybe he is one of the unwanted children that didn't have their soul destroyed
I like the idea that Messmer is the child of Marika and Radagon, while Godfrey was still Elden Lord and on his conquest. It's in line for a G.R.R Martin story.
This could possibly be why Godfrey and Marika split up. Godfrey discovering that Marika was messing around would threaten her image and in retaliation she banished him before he could expose her 🤷🏽♂️
SHE'S FOR THE STREETS
@@sk8legendzshe's for the shadows.
This is definitely one of the more obscure parts of Elden Ring's lore.
To me the Giant's Braid whip mentioning the fact that Radagon always hated his own hair color is a hint that Marika used giant's blood to make him. She was a Numen, from which the original Albinaurics descend from. It makes sense that she would look for ancient magic to make herself a new husband. And considering Radagon's wolf also has red fur and wields magic, it's almost obvious that he himself was like an Albinauric from the Consecrated Snowfield. Maybe he was grafted to his wolf when he first met Rennala on the battlefield.
Back on the war against the Giants, I aways assumed Godfrey had to burn the Erdtree the firsrt time around to reach the Elden Ring. Around the same time period Marika broke the rune of Death to make the Golden Order, creating Thoso who Live in Death by proxy. Then she hid ~what she believed was~ the only piece of Destined Death at the Heart of the Storm beyond Time.
I really hope the DLC expands upon the elements involved in this part of the story, because the transition from Godfrey's Order to Radagon's Golden Order was all about adding magic to the understanding of the world. Going through giants' and dragons' flames, as well as many aspects of the Crucible.
This may be the land from which Marika stole Destined Death from the Gloam-Eyed Queen. That decaying skeleton-horsething screams "Godskin" to me.
They at least HAVE TO give us one area to explore red glintstone. No one is mentioning the thornlike shadows within Messmer's flames. The Fire monks use bloodthorn spells against us. That's enough proof that bloodthorns are also related to fire.
Thorns are pretty much the missing link between fire and death.
@@derieksimon6260 Well, the whole purpose of banishing the warrior lineage was to for them to be away from the meddling of Greater Will, so that when Marika herself initiated her scheme by shattering the ring and fatally weakens the Greater Will, the Tanished (or more specifically, Godfrey) could then return to finish the job.
I personally don't think Godfrey was being cheated or anything like that, since he seem to be quite enthusiastic about his return to home lol.
It’s wild that Miyazaki was dangling the release date of the DLC right in our faces with AC6. Having our mech’s callsign being 621 makes so much sense now.
AC6 was supposed to be our filler until DLC release date. Interesting.
Holy shit
Remember Mordecai from Elden Ring News? Look at the number of his last video.
🤯
@MelancholyPepper well it could have been translated into the way we write dates here, because originally in Japanese it wouldn't have been either or, he could have had the team that translates make sure that the 6/21 was put into the game for the reason of future telling the date of the ER DLC
Look at the flame sling and fire's deadly sin incant descriptions, it talks of a prophet who saw the flames of ruin within the faith who received banishment for seeing this, directly invoking the phrase cardinal sin. This is probably about Messmer and would explain why he's stuck in the land of shadow as well as why snakes are considered a symbol of traitors of the erdtree.
No it's talks about PROHETS, prophets in Elden ring are apart of the golden order and follow the erd trees teachings/greater will, the description says "the flame of ruin is anathema to the erdtrees. But prophets sometimes glimpse it within the faith all the same. Sadly when this occurs their sole reward is banishment" many prophets have seen the burning of the erdtree and when spoken outloud they are shackled and banished forever to wander nowhere does it claim a single prophet nore insinuate please re read lore
And the fires deadly sin talks about when prophets seen the burning of the erdtree, they were then shackled and banished which is what happend to you if you picked the prophet beginning
I noticed that the sun mask worn by the giant wicker man in the trailer is the same one worn by the Dung Eater.
I took a closer look at it, and they are REALLY similar but not the same. The Dung Eater's sun has the rays of the sun around it and it's more circular, while the face on the Wicker man is more oval and it has circular patterns and horns around it. Also if we wanna be really specific, the faces also have slight differences, but it clearly shares many similarities. One reason why i believe why they might share a common meaning is because Dung Eater was born a human with the soul of an Omen, and the Wicker man has horns similar to that of the omens around the giant mask.
Agreed it’s very similar but definitely not the same, with some potentially significant differences.
@@HML_Secondaryand omen soul is just a crucible soul with no apparent crucible marks on a body
Did you notice or did another youtuber notice and you watched their video lmao
@muramasa870 That's even more suspicious because in the DLC trailer, we see orange flames clowe to the color of the crucible and new crucible incantations...
His fire is so differwnt tho. Am I tripping when I see like black barbed vines (briar) flowing from his flames? I feel his fire is blasphemy itself, the original sinful flame. There's so many iterations of flame in Elden ring, his is the only one that carries characteristics of more than one type of flame
I noticed this too… my initial thought when i first saw his flame in the trailer was that it was corrupted/imbued with Godwyn’s deathroot somehow
Definitely looks like a mix between fire and thorn sorcerey. Messmer likely created this flame himself rather than happen upon it by accident. Its even called "Messmer's Flame" in the trailer so it's likely a completely new school of fire incantations
@@antonironstag5085 ooh good note there, it is specifically called messmers flame. I do wonder though if maybe the iterations of flame and briar in the base games are just parts and pieces of the original messmers flame. Like since he was erased from history, if people in the lands between stumbled upon bits and pieces of his legacy and misinterpreted it, thus causing all these other schools that are just parts or aspect of his original. My head canon is going wild sorry if this is unhinged Bois
@@antonironstag5085 god, i hope you're right
@@Sadonyx Rykard developed the gelmir sorceries from ancient hexes. Given the snake imagery in Volcano Manor, those “hexes” could also be a part of Messmer’s flame
The view out the front door of the Impaler's Catacombs is of the Cathedral of Dragon Communion and Redmane Castle. An interesting coincidence, considering the Dracula "son of the dragon" and red hair of Messmer the Impaler.
I've always wondered why it looks like the golden part of the erdtree looks like an illusion while the part you go into isn't glowing and looks like actual wood, maybe the golden part is covering up previous damage done by a burning in the past
Probably why those who can’t see grace and can’t see the erd tree’s glow get treated so bad cause they’d know the truth just by looking at it
Sounds very compelling to me! Great find bro!
L take
Could also be new growth, when trees grow or are damaged they start the process of growing/regrowing branches which tend to be a much lighter color than the older parts of the tree.
@@markarato8034 It's been discussed to death by other YT creators. 😅
After brushing up on Celtic mythology, I'm convinced that Messmer is akin to Lugh and Miquella is akin to Bres the beautiful. Lugh's weapon was a firey spear and he was sometimes shown with a two headed snake wrapped around him. He was also known to wield fire.
Bres was also called Eochu Bres or, :the beautiful horseman." Sometimes just called Eochaid. He was the beautiful son of of the one-eyed Balor and was the lord of the Formorians. He was made kind when Nuada was disqualified due to the loss of his hand. Bres was known to be a bad king who made their equivalent of Zeus dig ditches.
Lugh was also know as, "Lugh of the Long Arm."
Lugh was also half god and half giant and killed the Dagah, the, "Good God," who controlled life and death and was the father of druids.
He also lead the fight vs the Formorians and killed the one-eyed lord of the Formorians, Balor, who was also his father.
Eochaid you say? Like Eochaid’s dancing blade
@@TomClarke1995 Well, that just made things interesting. I just did some researching and the Marais Executioner's sword has this in it's description: "Elemer of the Briar, the Bell Bearing Hunter, snatched the sword from the site of his looming execution, and furnished it with battle skills from his home of Eochaid".
More Interesting though, is this part of the description of it's smaller brother, The Regalia of Eochaid: "Treasured sword of Eochaid, a lesser, long-vanished domain".
@@amannamedsquid313 Considering the connection between Eochaid and Miquella, perhaps maybe the DLC is going to take place there?
Ooo the sfuff about Eochu gives me LOTR Rohan vibes
Maybe it’s inspiration? Their shields and armor look somewhat Celtic as well
During morgott cutscene you can see there is a deliberate space in between the thrones while morgott names them off
Messmer does have red hair too👀
The line "Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death. In the embrace of Messmer’s flame" could be taken as a warning that siding with Messmer was death. Almost like if you had fought on his side it was a losing battle. Messmer could have tried to go against the erd tree and failed. The betrayal he committed in maybe attempting to burn the tree caused anything about him to be wiped from history in the same sense as the nameless king from ds3. And those that followed him had to hide from the light of the erd tree.
I find it interesting that Messmer's snakes seem to grow out of the same spots on his body where Radagon got impaled with the black spear
There is absolutely a connection between Messmer and Melina. ( the closed eye, the burning Tree, how was Melina able to get her hands on Torrent? )
Melina is a child of Marika as she verbatim said she was born at the foot of the Erdtree 🫥. She isn’t some random female who just had divine powers and information about the world for no reason 📰.
Here is a quote: “Me, I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago, for the reason that I yet live, burned and bodyless.There is something for which I must apologize. I've acted the finger maiden yet I can offer no guidance, I am no maiden.My purpose was long ago lost...”
I think Ranni and Melina is working under the influenced of Miquella to find him the "Promised Lord" which is us. The Spirit Calling Bell and the Steed Whistle belongs to Miquella which is given to us by Ranni and Melina.
@@ericstaten2562
@@LyricSnowe How do I love to argue when all I did was provide a quote to explain something 🤨?
If anyone wants to argue it’s definitely you because you’re instigating an argument right now by making baseless assumptions about individuals you don’t know 🫥🤡😕.
Your retarded 😂 thoughs questions have no good answers nor logic behind questioning
Horah Loux is also depicted as being impaled against a tree in his introduction at the very start of the game.
The trailer also shows enemies with the Brave's armour set, which is unavailable in the main game but found in the game files. It is described as being worn by warriors who took part in the long march.
I'd wager the badlands is actually a part of the lands of shadow. Perhaps that is why the tarnished lack the grace of gold in the first place, the veil over the lands of shadow restricts the light of the erdtree.
While history remembers Godfrey being "hounded" from the capital, Marikas own words to Godfrey and the tarnished sound much more like a farewell, as if she knows full well that their excursion would strip them of the erdtrees' protection, meaning they would fight and die in the lands of shadow, unable to return.
Perhaps that's why she sent Godfrey in the first place, as her champion he would have been the only person she trusted enough to lead a force into a land of no return.
This is all speculation of course, but it's currently my running theory alongside the potential that Messmer is potentially a illigitimate child of the Markia/Radgon rebis who was born before Marika named Godfrey Elden Lord, due to his links to a time period closer to the crucible rather than Radagon's rein as elden lord.
Marika naming Godfrey Elden Lord would have immediately illigitimized any claim Messmer would have had to his lineage, fueled his grudge with Godfrey and the tarnished, and giving motive for his crimes against the erdtree.
I only mean to kindly put foward, around 2:00-2:41 you state that his emblem is a nail, but id like to challenge that and say its a spear with a spear shoe at the end. Its meant for balance but also its a weapon as well, the rounded shape suggests that it would be used to counterbalance and to knock an enemy prone to being smashed in the skull. You also state that the snake growing theough his chest is unlike any enemy weve seen but take note of the Red Assassin guy innthe Consecrated Snowfields. He has a snake that grows out of his wrist during combat! So cool
I always found the butterflies interesting given that miquella literally puts himself into a cocoon
And remember that Malenia (and stuff associated with her) are full of butterfly motifs. That includes Malenia's appearance as the Goddess of Rot, Scarlet Rot claims to promote "transformation" (which Millicent committed suicide to avoid), and Scarlet Rot's association with insects in general.
They gave my dude The Nameless King treatment.
I think that messmer is the old leader of the fire monks and lead them in the war of the giants to get the giants flame because his flame being a mix of abberant sorcery and giantsflame, the smouldering butterflies in their camps, the spears in their camps and the abberant sorcery spears in the dead giants.
But it literally is know Godfrey lead that charge.... Come on
godfrey led the war against the giants dummy
If you go to your map go look at the *ERDTREE* Zoom all the way in, go walk up to your tv and look closely the tree is TRANSLUCENT, you can see the mountains and roads through it
But it isn't I'm looking at it right now.... There are no roads only cliffs in that area and what your seeing are the trees branches... Dear god
@@cyberius14 The 6 people who liked my comment obviously see it too , either you have a BOOTLEG elden ring game lol (not literally just clownin) or you’re just trolling looking for an argument because I know what I see bro, those cliff, roads, whatever it is you can literally see it through the tree im not gonna argue with u about it
The thing is that the smouldering butterfly could still apply to Melina, and it could be used as even more evidence to us burning the tree for a second time. Since she has burn scars on her hands, it could mean that when we commit the cardinal sin of burning the Erdtree, it's not the first time she set herself ablaze, and she may have been the kindling maiden for Messmer in the first burning of the Erdtree. As for the butterflies, since we need to use the Giant's Flame to burn down the Erdtree, and we know that the Flame comes from an outer God, and the only way to use an Outer God's power is to be their Empyrean, we could see Melina serve as a temporary Empyeran (since she says herself that she's been stripped of her body, and because of Ranni sacrificing her body to cut ties to her two fingers we know that having a physical body is a requirement) to channel the power of the Giant's Flame and burn the Erdtree.
Sorry if I explained myself poorly, english is not my first language.
Not just Melina, all the maidens can sacrifice themselves to burn the Erdtree (read Vyke's Story) so the smouldering butterfly definitely symbolizes Messmer, I know Melina is special and maybe she is linked to Messmer in some way we don't know yet
What if Melina and Messmer are counterparts like Marika/Radagon?
- First of all they both have their left eyes closed. When we saw Marika transforming to Radagon they were both missing half a torso and most of their left arms so I'd assume some kind of damages won't change.
- First two characters with dualities both had a female and a male counterparts so it's logical to think Melina would have a male counterpart too.
- Messmer was erased from history it would explain why we have little to no information about Meilna.
- They supposedly share similar goals in burning the erdtree.
- Melina says her mother is inside the erdtree and her in file name is "MaricaOfDaughter" safe to assume she is a daughter of Marika and Radagon and just like Miquella, Malenia and their third child confirmed by Miyazaki Messmer they all share the same initial M.
- Also Melina clearly doesn't have a body just like Ranni (the only character who talks about Melina) they can both appear and disapear similarly. Melina was severed somehow from her body maybe when they tried to burn the erdtree? Then either Ranni was inspired by Melina to cast away her own body too (thus escaping the greater will) now that she knows it's possible OR the other way around.
@thinhtran647 do you know what happened bernahl's maiden
@@LegendaryGary17 the same thing happened with melina, sacrifice your maiden on fire is the only way to go to farum aluza
@thinhtran647 but if you read the lore, when she did that, nothing happened. And with the loss of his maiden bernahl lost faith in the purpose of the tarnished and became a recusant
this vid is one of my favorites from this channel bc it tighted up a looot of things
enjoyed it a lot
This wasn't mentioned in the video but I feel like Messmer could've also been the one to have impaled Horah Loux. In the game's beginning cutscene we see that Horah Loux suffers the same impalement as Marika. And we know that grace was removed from Godfrey's eyes and maybe to tie up loose ends for the sake of The Golden Order... Messmer was directed by the Greater Will to slay him.
Good theory
Godfrey died in the Badlands. And the GW doesn't just talk to people.
“Erase from history and uses a spear like weapon.” Reminds me of some other boss from another souls game.
Has anyone else noticed that when Messmer's flames are being displayed above him, that it's similar to the image of the Erdtree burning? Also that the flame itself is reminiscent of Giant's flame? Not to mention that Messmer has hair more akin to the giants than Radagon? Perhaps Messmer is the child of a giant and Marika pre Erdtree...
That would be dope and is actually a fair assumption and I hope it's true, it never made any sense as to why she left that one fire giant alive just to protect the fire when she could have had someone else do it, I mean why the hell would she leave a crippled giant up there to be a guard instead of someone more capable
I had a thought. Messmer the Impaler impales people on spikes. The giants were impaled on spikes, now Messmer is sealed away in the land of shadows. Godfrey was in charge of dealing with the giants on the mountaintop. I wonder if part of the reason Marica divorced him and banished him was cause he knew of Messmer before he got sealed away and she didn't want that loose end dangling.
Is the ghost in weeping peninsula, near a church of Marika, reffering to Messmer when he speaks of the unwanted child?
Most likely considering how the impalers tomb is relatively close to the ghost
I recently replayed ER since the release of the trailer and noticed this dialog also. Back then it made no sense but now I think you are on to something, I believe it's Mesmer the ghost is referring to also
They are both in weeping peninsula...how are you gonna say they are not close??????
It refers to the nameless beheaded demigods in the mausoleums
In addition: It has been identified that Messmer's spear is identical to the spears that the dead Fire Giants have been impaled with.
Messer's look and main part of his symbol is based on the Caduceus. The staff of Hermes. Twined serpents wrapped around a staff adorned with wings. The word is from the Greek root meaning “herald's wand” and was a badge of diplomatic ambassadors associated with commerce, eloquence, alchemy, thievery, and lying. now is used as a symbol of healing through out most of the world. It came to be associated with a precursor of medicine in the seventh century, based on the Hermetic astrological principles of using the planets and stars to heal the sick.
The only problem I see with Messmer being the reason why snakes are taboo traitors is the fact that he would also be younger than that tradition, same as the perfumers and Rykard. The Gladiators represents a time under Godfreys rule, which is before Miquella, Melania, and Messmer were born. So how can the gladiators be clad in snakes that the audience loved seeing crushed if snakes were not symbols against the Erdtree before Messmer?
The Serpent Sword also suggests that snake worship is really ancient, right? Messmer wouldn't be that ancient if he is of Marika and Radagon.
I personally think the snakes have been symbols of sacrilege for a very long time, so long that theres no recorded reason as to why, similar to the snake symbol in real life. Many thing snakes have their spiritual reputation because of christianity with the snake in the garden of eden being the devil himself, but it is much older than that. We can see rituals from 17,000 years ago in Europe where snakes are ritualistically decapitated, and pretty much all old religions have deep mysteries about snakes where they represent things like mortal life, death, and rebirth. They are the dragons of the earth and sea. If this is what Miyazaki draws upon then it makes sense for snakes to just naturally be the enemies of that which seeks to bypass the natural cycle of life, death, and rebirth.
It would be really cool if we got to see an Elden Ring version of the old norse rebirth mythology where people basically walk down the river of death until they end up on a beach where giant snakes devours them, sending them to be reborn.
As for what I think, I think Messmer also deopted the snakes like everyone else we've seen. I think they are part of his affliction, as all the children of Marika and Radagon are supposed to be afflicted. And in typical Marika fashion, taboo afflictions in her children causes her to shun them, just like Mohg and Morgott. You can bet she would do something similar or worse to a son born with snakes growing out of him. He is the villain/fallen angel to Miquellas antichrist.
I can watch Messmer look at me menacingly whilst raising a flame filled hand all day
This guy has a talent for saying 30 seconds worth news in 10 minutes.
Do you enjoy wet farting
7:50
"It's just a theory" 🍷🗿
A GAME THEORY
Great video, awesome outro too!
We know that when Marika and Radagon had children, they were:
- Twins
- One had red hair (Malenia) and the other blonde hair (Miquella)
- The names started with M
That makes me think Messmer and Melina could be twins too. Melina is kinda blonde while Messmer has red hair, both names start with M and they are both children of Marika as far as we know
I agree. Notice the eyes. Both Melina and Messmer has closed left eye. Also, the tired sleepy looking face of both looks very simular in a way
Or they are the same person, and melena is just the puppet with an eyemark from casting off her demigod flesh, like ranni's puppet. Also fits the common theme in their family of being both male and female figures like Maricka/Radagon and Miquella/Trina.
Melina’s hair is either red and blonde, or pink and platinum. I think it indicates age maybe? And she is actually messmers sister and originally his finger maiden.
This man does his homework for sure...... great job as always .
In regards to the topic of Melina - I do think Melina is a child of marika. One thing I never hear anyone talking about is Melina’s connection to torrent. I’ve seen theories that torrent is miquella’s horse - if so, why is it that Melina is the one to deliver torrent to the player? This implies some connection between Melina and miquella … perhaps a familial one? Idk that makes the most sense to me, but pls lmk what you all think.
I think it is likely the dlc will shed light on Melina’s story - perhaps this will even coincide with Mesmer in some way
Torrent, the wolf ashes and the Spirit Calling Bell were all Miquella's. This means Melina and Ranni were at least in communication with Miquella at some point. Ranni asks about Torrent before giving you the Bell and the ashes, like she was tasked to do so. I think Miquella is pulling a lot of strings behind the scene.
@@portalmanHUN agreed, I hope we get some of this untangled in the DLC
As mentioned in other theories, Marika is a dual-aspected being, like "the rebus" in alchemy. Male and female aspects within a single being. Marika and Radagon. 2 souls, 1 body.
I think the smoldering butterfly represents both Messmer and Melina. Going further than that, just like Marika, I believe they were two aspects of one individual. An empyrean. The gloam-eyed queen.
Godwyn was "the first of the demigods to die" yet the gloam-eyed queen (an empyrean) was defeated by maliketh before this.
I believe that Marika's first child was the gloam-eyed queen and upon their defeat, their body was burned and their dual-aspected nature separated. One half banished to the shadow lands, Messmer, and the other becoming Melina.
Miquella had to shed his physical form to reach the shadow lands. I believe Messmer is trapped there because he lacks one.
I think it's possible Miquella may be there to find a way to truly kill Godwyn's soulless body, perhaps because it's in danger of being possessed by the soul of Messmer. Miquella seems to be in an alliance with Ranni despite her murder of Godwyn, and the shadow lands may even be where Ranni travels when she slumbers. Ranni handling the problem of outer gods meddling with the lands between which Miquella desires, while Miquella handles the problem of Messmer possessing Godwyn's soulless husk.
As an aside, I believe the shadow lands were created by Marika when she separated the Erdtree from the crucible. The shadow lands are all the undesireable aspects of the crucible that Marika separated to create a new golden order.
One thing that might be worth to mention. This is probably a stretch, but there is something about Messmer's face that resemble Melina's face. Also, the left eye of Melina is always closed, just as with Messmer. Also, his spear looks like a spear version of the Blasphemous blade
He kinda looks like all the demigods in some way
@@adamhunter4120 Agree
His face look more like Malenia which means they are brother/sister.
Thank you? Someone else noticed too. I can't believe how crazy ideas people have sometimes but this one makes so much sense.
- First of all they both have their left eyes closed. When we saw Marika transforming to Radagon they were both missing half a torso and most of their left arms so I'd assume some kind of damages won't change.
- First two characters with dualities both had a female and a male counterparts so it's logical to think Melina would have a male counterpart too.
- Messmer was erased from history it would explain why we have little to no information about Meilna.
- They supposedly share similar goals in burning the erdtree.
- Melina says her mother is inside the erdtree and her in file name is "MaricaOfDaughter" safe to assume she is a daughter of Marika and Radagon and just like Miquella, Malenia and their third child confirmed by Miyazaki Messmer they all share the same initial M.
- Also Melina clearly doesn't have a body just like Ranni (the only character who talks about Melina) they can both appear and disapear similarly. Melina was severed somehow from her body maybe when they tried to burn the erdtree? Then either Ranni was inspired by Melina to cast away her own body too (thus escaping the greater will) now that she knows it's possible OR the other way around.
He legit looks like malenia but with wider shoulders and looking slightly taller
whats crazy is that the game has so much lore and story and I did not notice anything about it before my first playthrough
I think Messmer is an Empyrean that is in in the Shadowrealm to escape Miquella. Miquella orchestrated all the events in Elden Ring to get rid of the other Empyreans. Night of the black knives was about crippling Marika and Ranni, He convinced Radahn to halt the stars to block Rannis ascension. He convinced Malenia to give up her Godhood somehow, probably because she loved him, and the Gloam Eyed Queen is presumably also pacified in some way. He then had to enter the Shadowrealm to get rid of the last Empyrean, but either got stuck or needs help dealing with Messmer, which is what we can choose to do in the DLC or defeat Miquella ourselves.
it’s not a different realm it’s just a country separate from the lands between
Please stop thinking Bro 😭🙏
I would have believed this if it were not for the fact of Castle Sol, and it's eclipse purpose by Miquella to grant true death to Godwyn.
But then again the epitaph sword explicitly depicts miquella wishing godwyn to die a true and peaceful death,little bro doesn't seem to be this evil
Ranni conducted Night of the Black Knives to ensure her ascension and to kill the lawful first heir to the throne to star a Civil War.
Messmer is like Friede!! cause both tried to beat he game (In simpler terms)
I still think he's a child of the previous god of the Lands Between: Gloam Eye Queen. Her consort was Placidusax, a dragon. Meaning Messmer's brother could have been Eiglay, the God Devouring Serpent. They're all related to the Crucible and hated the Golden Lineage/Order.
Bro im not gonna lie it looks like messmar is holding the dark soul in this scene from dark souls3.
"What's going on guys...." in a voice from the Abyss 😊
10:04 Messmer flames seem to create black branches, maybe depicting the first sin of erdtree being burned. that could be due to the erdtree being an ilusion of the great tree of the shadow real and the new order it brought to the lands between
It doesn't matter who he is, he will fall like the rest.
Thanks ziostorm for mentioning Tarnished Archeologists theory. I found that TA's interpretations were deep and logical and no other major ER theorists and players seemed to mention him at all.
Messmer reminds me of Lucifer in a lot of places.
First the snake being a symbol of traitor and ironically being rapped around the tree of knowledge being similar to some of the snake imagery we see ingame.
Then with messmer being depicted as a sort of rebel, with all the blasphemous things like wielding fire and again the snake, dragon communion etc.
And if he is a child of marika and radagon, he could've been considered as an empyrian ( whome you could say are considered as the "brightest of demigods"). Similar to how lucifer was considered one of if not the brightest of angels until he "rebelled" and was cast out , becoming the devil.
So i thought that was interesting.
This comment needs more attention
This is kinda just crazy speculation, but there are so many similarities between Melina and Messmer I really think Melina might be from the shadow lands too or have closer ties with Messmer than just brother and sister somehow. They both have ties with destined death, fire and burning the erd tree, having one eye closed, and probably being children of Marika who have been kind of cast aside or something. Idk where im going with this but they have to be tied somehow. Like maybe born around the same time or even twins or something idk.
I think Melina and Mesmer are twins like Miquella and Melania are but in the shadow lands. Melina said she “was left burned and bodiless” while by the Impailer’s catacombs refers to an unwanted, soulless child, whom most are now correlating to Mesmer. If Mesmer originally burned the Erdtree with Melina’s body with it, it could’ve been where Ranni, Rykard, and Miquella could’ve gotten the Plot to kill Godwyn. I’m still unsure why Melina is never mentioned anywhere and unknown, since she’d be the first demigod to “die.” It’s possible if she’s the creator of the black knives she could’ve been casted out by Marika but resummoned to the Erdtree to burn it again because she’s the only one who remembers what happened. I can’t think of a reason for Mesmer to become soulless and why there’d be such differing results between him and Godwyn
Probably from the same way that the entombed demi gods in the walking mausoleums became soulless. I think they will expand on it, because by game lore Godwyn had his soul destroyed and he died and was the first recorded demi god to die.
A ghost in the weeping peninsula diagonal to a minor erdtree has a certain type of questioning dialogue
Just saying messmers fire emblem is a tattoo available in character creation. 2:00
That statue behind Messmer’s throne is reminiscent of the Abductor Virgins.
Zio, I just emailed you on this. The sigil on the left side of Messmer's emblem (collectors box and flags in game) is Melania's "Scarlet Aeonia."
Nice find!
I think he’s a full fledged dragon Demi God.
Finally, someone who noticed the snake had two heads. I've watched many videos on the trailer, and no one I watched noticed.
Literally every video commented about the two headed snake why are you even saying😂
@@cornpop838 awesome for you
I bet that snake tail looking thing messmer has will have an attack that will poison you while he spits out that bloodfire that causes bleed and burn damage.
Melina finds a Tarnished and gives him Torrent, which is Miquella's steed. We know she's burned and bodiless, strangely enough Miquella also divested himself of his flesh to presumably enter the land of shadows (and free himself from the greater will/golden lineage). Fact is, Miquella recently asked Melina to find a chosen Tarnished, which confirms she came back from the land of shadows. The blade of calling states : Dagger given to one who set out on a journey to fulfill her duty long ago. So Melina had a task long ago and it had something to do with either the former burning of the Erdtree, the burning of the Shadow of the Erdtree, the flame of Destined Death or an unknown event (maybe related to Messmer or the unsung war). Anyway, her past duty is most probably the reason why she's burned and bodiless. Rambling over.
Very interesting points and great video as always. Cheers from Germany
I agree with a lot of this, it’s a very good theory. But not the Marika part. The fact that the Elden Beast uses an attack identical to Marika’s crucifixion tells me all I need to know. I’ll admit the color of the spear is odd, but I still think the Elden Beast is to blame. Destined Death is a great rune after all, I don’t see why the Elden Beast wouldn’t be capable of using it itself.
What if Mesmer is a second aspect of Melina or vice versa? Like how Marika and Radagon or Mikela and St Trina are the same person.
the trailer looks SO FREAKING COOL :DDD
Bro, I wanna thank Ziostorm making top tier content for us nonstop❤
"Haven't seen anything like him in the base game"
Rykard "and I took that personally"
theory, what if mesmer is melina just like radagon is marika I mean it make scence lore wise for what I have thought
the closed eye makes me wonder if he and melena arnt related like twins also. maybe she is destined to make up for his mistake of burningthe tree or maybe she was the one who did it for him in the past?
Mesmer is Melina as Radagon is Merika. They split and Melina burned, leaving her male half to be exiled.
Hey man idk about the lore but I'm willing to bet we will be getting the missing heirloom talisman that increases arcane, and it will be related to Messmer, "the impaler's heirloom" or something
Yo i saw an interesting detail today comparing to the DLC trailer. The cleanrot knights weapon resemble both the impaller’s spear and possibly miquella’s halfmoon rune show in the trailer.
everything makes more sense if melina is merika's sister + also the gloam eyed queen ... their names are even more similar in japanese btw .... so it would then follow that the messmer is the third sibling of malenia and miquella and related to smoldering butterflies
I would absolutely love if someone made the whole lore and everything that happened into a book
Since Melina had the idea of burning the tree, and she has relation to fire, maybe she is Messmer's daughter.
It just dawned on me that liturgical town is possibly veiled and protected by black knifes hiding the haligtree, housing three factions (godwyns undead, rannis assassins, knight and albinaurics, and malenias rot kindred/knights) and broken into by mohg who like morgot uses some kind of veil and all these things are against or hunted by the golden order because they're not "compatible" with the golden order
Strange bedfellows
A personal theory regarding Mesmer's and Melina's identity I came up with while watching videos analyzing the trailer: Since Elden Ring uses duality, split beings and (literally) trans-identity a lot - Marika/Radagon, Ranni and Godwyn etc. - I thought that Melina could be a part of Mesmer. Maybe his soul/being is split in another, yet unknown way. Where his "true self" resides in the Land of Shadow while Melina is another part/projection of him to enter and influence the Lands Between after being exiled. It would make sense thematically, aline with Melina literally burning herself to open the entrance to the Erdtree and fit into the "three butterflies theory". So Mesmer and Melina would both be children of Marika - or to be more precise - a single child of hers. Maybe being a split being as well (especially with the same male/female split) makes them the true Empyrean and "rightful" heir to Marikas reign!?
I love that everyone is starting to think this way! It hit me like a ton of bricks when I watched the dlc trailer and it fits all the themes sooooooo well.
i think messmer is miquella, the quote "blood must be spilled in that foresaken place" could be linked to mogwin palace since blood must be spilled to reach that place, we do see miquella's blood being spilled there too and not to mention, the striking similarity between messmer and miquella regarding the length of their hands
The Fire In Messer's Hand Looks Exactly Like The Fire In All The "Erdtree Aflame" Paintings. Like Even To The Little Glowy Gold Within The Flame Once It Forms In His Hand In The Close Up.
Tinfoil hat on: Messmer is Melinas other half.
I love the Metroid prime music at the end I played that on GameCube back in the day
I feel like I've seen no one notices that his spear is really similar to the spears in the giants on the mountain tops. His attack shown in the trailer shows him making a multitude of spears in one attack, similar to the mountaintops. I think it'd make sense if he helped lead this attack, kept part of the giants flame, burned the tree, and then was banished
Marika: "What blasphemy hast thou communed with?"
Mesmer: "Yes."
Messmer is the missing lord of Placidusax, the one he’s been waiting for
This is deep, going to gave to play this during a nap and ponder 🤔🤔🤔. Great theories!
Imagine messmer is radagon’s brother
Messmer is the alter ego of Miquella same as Radogon is the alter ego of Queen Merica
Hey Ziostorm, did you ever wondered what happened to the broken giant bridge looking ridiculously higher than the near divine tower? It can be seen on cinematic trailer scene depicting siege of Leyndell but I couldn't find it in actual game. Bridge seems like the ones usually connecting land to the Liurnia and Limgrave divine towers (with sword holding white statues, TA's "saint&tree stratum" architecture) and looked like to me unusually larger than it supposed to be. I don't think it was an extention of Leyndell ramparts but I may be wrong.
The symbol of the Confessors, on the cape of one of the starting classes no less, is a dagger going through two snakes. The confessors are assassins who hunt down enemies of the Erdtree. Messmer was here before you even got out of the character creator.
Bravo man , i started playing Elden ring again . ❤
with the second trailer coming out we can see that he once led a war in the Land of Shadows, likely queen Marikas orders. i believe that he was used by her and when he realised this he got angry and wanted to burn down the erdtree. but how can he burn down the tree? either he was the first to steal destined death(we know it got stolen twice and one of the times was Ranni) or the more likely option is that, like said in the video, Messmers flame can already burn it because we can see that it is special and different and it has the same red-black hue as Malikeths fire. i then believe that he was banished and erased from history, which is why there is a weird gap between Godwyns throne and melania- and miquellas thrones. it makes sense for his throne to have been there to fill out the gap, because he is likely the son of Marika and Radagon because of his red hair. and we can see the way that the thrones are placed that Marika-Radagon children are to the right, while Radagon-Rennala are to the left.
other cool theories:
from cpupyroheart5716 Messmer did dragon communion and hunted dragons, and that is why he has the eyes and it is why the dragons attacked Leyndell
Messmers flame looks like dragon communion seal because he was the first to use it, and it looks like flame of frienzy seal because flame of frienzy can burn EVERYTHING and so can his flame because... its special and from a demigod idk
Messmer was the first child and was concieved before Radagon and Marika became the same person. we see in the second trailer that he was there (or very shortly after) when Marika ascended to godhood and made the erdtree. the Corpse she takes the stringy rune from could be a dead Radagon "Miquella the kind spoke of the beginning. the seduction. and the betrayal" Marika seduced Radagon because she needed him to ascend/create the erdtree, and then betrayed him by killing him in order to ascend/create the erdtree.
Maybe messmer is melina? I feel what we have missed out of in terms of significance is the sealing of the eye in characters may denote a split in spirit that allows dual manifestation of avatars with those who are pure emperiums. Miquella and malenia were born split but malania has a sealed eye too, and its likely miquella does too...all emperiums are two halves of a whole.
Now I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure in messmer’s voice line I don’t think he’s referring to us. But is actually talking about miquella, a Demi god who willingly divulged themself of grace. That statement can be found both in main game lore and the lore of the dlc.
im not sure what i enjoy more, the game or the lore. They're both so awesome
Mesmer is Miquella I say. He has mesmerized the populace to see him as someone else.
what if the snakes are part of Messmer because of Blasphemous stuff like Rykard but clearly not to the same extent. but then has wings because he practiced Dragon Communion. so he got Dragon eyes and they grew wings because they were part of him so they were influenced by it as well
If you look closer at the flame symbol, you will notice that it has a dragon head on the right side.