Just To Clarify Overwhelmingly Powerful Floodgates aren't the only problem. An Equal Case Can Be Made For Generic Omni-Negate End Boards That Can Interrupt You 8 Times. Or The Disparity Between An Older Deck And The Hyper Consistency Of New Decks That Release. Perhaps We Can Talk About Those In The Future?
Thank you for this comment. A LOT of combo players in general refuse to admit that spamming the field full of generic omni negates is 100% just as unfair as floodgates
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I just wish it didn't feel like you *have* to play either meta or anti-meta. I just wanna build a deck around a cool archetype or monster :( EDIT: To clarify, since some peeps have mentioned this. I know you *can* run a less optimal deck, it's just personal experience. In casuals I still often run into omni-negates and floodgates a lot, which makes running my more niche decks less viable.
That's just how the cookie crumbles when you're playing a competitive game unfortunately, it isn't just like that with YuGiOh (although with YuGiOh it's amplified because of the speed of the game and power of top strategies). You can play rogue decks but you're trading the power for the unfamiliarity your opponent will have with your deck and you win that way. It isn't going to be a win rate like you're playing snake eyes, but if you're playing something wacky than people aren't going to know what it's end goal is and you can cheese wins off of them that way lol
In master duel you actually could, in gold rank or lower 😅 also, within the middle and end of season, so that the sweaty meta users already in Plat or higher rank
I placed YGO back when floodgates existed but weren't overly common. What got me out of the game was the absurdity of turns where you can play through 1/3 of your deck in a single turn and shut off your opponent. That is less fun than having to deal with 1 or 2 floodgates
Sadly I feel the same way, grew up with the game in grade school and middle school. Wish to continue it but it's gotten to a point where it's monotonous
Same here. I will always cherrish the franchise with all my heart and continue so. But I can't support how broken the card games has been getting. Wish they would fix that. But I highly doubt it.
So I will say that I don't think floodgates are "inherently" bad for the game; but I do think it's because of how STUPIDLY OP the modern game's speed/meta has been for awhile. It bleeds into the decks too cause I feel like most new archetypes are just engines that have a bunch of effects that bounce off each other to lock your opponents lol.
Yep. Back in the day, floodgates lot of the times not much problem as lot of decks are running removal for it. Games aren't end in 1 turn so u can wait to draw those cards, play slow and set cards. But yea as u said how modern YGO is being played made those older floodgates become more powerful than ever now. Tbh both are fine to exist, as it counters each other. If one cease to exist, the other one need to. That's why nowdays time wizard formats getting more and more popular.
If you play a retro format. Floodgates weren't really an issue. The current culture of Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't promote a slow-paced gameplay, so a modern deck in 2024 is more likely to struggle with a floodgate than an old school one.
its funny how they complain about floodgates, yet the one card that could strain them enough to universally require them to have a way out got so much hate they banned it. gotta love mystic mine and how it could actually control the stupid fast games.
@@invertbrid That is a very good point about older floodgates became more powerful over time! Agreed, most didn't impact the game too much back. Now a floodgate will prevent many cards from being able to be played in the deck because of how many modern decks are built. This leads to them feeling unfair by some, understandably so. I agree- they both are needed to counter each other!
This exactly. A regular deck (not even specifically tailored, I really mean just a regular deck) can deal with floodgates easily. But no one wants to play normal decks anymore: they want to SPAM SPAM SPAM to get out 10 Extra Deck monsters per turn (that's including monsters just used as material again). Decks are one-trick ponies now that merely give an illusion of versatility, but floodgates break that illusion and stop such decks entirely. Rather than recognizing that, people just stubbornly kept continuing, instead relying on Konami to just ban/limit certain cards. But the banlist should only be used for cards that force people to tailor a deck specifically to counter them, not for cards that simply force people to stop having their decks being one-trick ponies.
Solitaire players: "You're what's wrong with this game!" Anti-meta floodgate players: "No, you're what's wrong with this game!" Decks with neither of those card types: "Why can't we just have fun anymore?" People on the outside with no cards: "How is this game still here?"
I'm probably closest to 3. I want a nice back and forth. I don't want to almost fall asleep waiting for Mt turn only to find I can't play. I just wonder what they even get out of it when that happens.
Exactly. The only reason they cry about it is because their super ultra meta decks isn't winning anymore and they can't play their 18 card 6 minute board combo. And the fact that this word "toxic" keeps getting thrown around says more about the people saying it than it does with the people using those cards. They always want to limit or ban something that's stopping their deck. It's dumb.
Floodgate is toxic as well. Modern day Yugioh is just at a point that no matter what happens the game isn’t fun anymore. It’s just a stew of toxicity. People complain that Floodgate isn’t fun to play against but neither is loosing on the second turn. Floodgate is a by product of Modern Yugiohs poor Meta. The game needs to slow down or it’ll forever be in this stalemate of Toxicity.
Hot take: generic Omni negates are floodgates. They stop your opponent from doing something but the owner chooses when Floodgates wouldn’t be a problem if there were less generic boss monsters. Yugioh went from a combat based style game to a OTK game where you play solitaire. So many boards end up on the same generic field and different archetypes still end up on the same cards. Make archetypal boss monsters and diversify the game, get rid of broken generic monsters and then ban floodgates, oh and Omni negates
The fact you look at both sides of the discussion makes me appreciate the video a lot more. Not just advocating one side, actually looking at both. And honestly both side's complaints are easily boiled down to one thing in the end: "I can't play the game". I wish we could return to the old days with battle phase reliant multi-turn back and forths, where 75% of modern day handtraps would barely do anything because it was just normal summon, attack (optional), set cards, pass.
But you're living in a dream world where that didn't happen outside of kitchen table yugioh, it's always been like this from yatalock onward - the community.
1999 Exodia FTK was tier 0. OCG also had many OTK and FTK decks and many lockdowns. There was no such thing as kitchen or playground ygo being the main thing
NGL Goat format isn’t very intuitive from a game design perspective. I don’t like the way the game is now sure. But normal summon set 1 just isn’t it. yugioh peaked in the middle of the XYZ era having the best of both modern and classic it just needed not to get ahead of itself and corporate greed needed to be put in check.
I do this with my Black Rose & Red Eyes in Duel Links. I have cards that bounce monsters back to the hand or have negates ready, but I simply hold off and let my opponent pull their combo. Of course the wise competitive players may say that's dumb to make them even play cause they could either break my board or pull off their Boss Monster with a nasty effect. But that's what I'm aiming for. A great duel. Sure I'll use my effects if I feel I'm in danger, but I'm not keen on cheesey wins. I remember a duel I had as Yusei vs. Jaden in Duel Links, I had 2 Synchros out & Jaden had 3 fusions. This was before Link Monsters so there was no extra monster zone. I had 2 sets, he had 1. Those duels are what I enjoy, the battle, the chains, and see who still standing after the dust settles.
"Why don't we bring lesser decks up..." Because that is how we powercreep into more degeneracy. You bring the meta down, so the game can be slowed down. I don't have fun doing 15 card combos to end in 3 omninegates. I would much rather have each player play slower decks. And as you mention, a big problem is just the amount of negates available or "needed" in the game right now. I can't play a lesser deck if I just get negated and my turn is over. It is just as bad as a floodgate.
Just look at yubel. Yubel used to be shit but after support became a top tier strategy and people hate it. So it’s like no matter what you do yugioh players will just cry about something else.
@@unsungangel7269 exactly. Learn the game. Play the game. Be ok with not winning all the time. Have fun with it. And be smarter than the average meta player.
I'd much prefer playing against Floodgates if they also have to grind out the game. The floodgates i can't stand are when they set up a huge board and then floodgate me.
Plus, what makes it even worse if I'm somehow able to out their entire board it is no point they can easily recycle all the necessary cards just to set up the same board again.
@@HawaiianForgeStudios Problem with that is, they can 1. design their deck around that particular floodgate and you still lose 2. they can play most of them after their turn. I understand floodgate players, nobody has to play against a 10 minute first turn combo but the concept of powerful and easy to play floodgates is absurd in any other card game.
No. In fact they can save it. Without floodgates it's just "I'm going to waste ten minutes of your time making you unable to stop me" With floodgates it's "let's have an actual interactive game"
The short awnser is that they are a necessary evil. Just like kaijus. Im an Umi control player myself and people complain SO much...even if they play Snake eyes, Sync spam, Yubel etc and ask me why. Im about to get really cheesy and bordering on preachy now but bare with me. I tell them something like this. You can literally just drop a kaiju on me and win. Meanwhile. You would have spent 10 minutes setting up more negates than the entire Solem series. And im the toxic one for using one floodgate card? The game at large and you specifically made me necessary. Im the monster you and the meta created. You could play something else. The game could not be about omni negates. But here we are. Im obviously not innocent in this. But when I'm being called toxic by a litteral bird brain player with more floodgates in deck than I have fingers. Something isn´t right on a deeper level.
I will never forget when I used Witchcrafter Draping to bounce Mystic Mine back to my opponent's hand over and over, and after I won the duel, my opponent flamed me for "relying on a single spell card"
I've never had a problem with floodgates. Its when monsters started to come immune to card effects in addition to a bs paragraph of effects is when I dipped out. A monster shouldn't inherently come with card effect immunity and the means that bestows such an effect shouldn't have built in protection either. Any card that says "no, this is the bestest most powerfulest card ever and you cant do anything to it" completely kills the fun in any game, card or otherwise, in addition to wasting everyone's time building a 99 chain link and still continue going. Floodgates on their own can create a puzzle for you to deal with. Combining them can be crippling to face but I do agree there should be a substantial maintenance cost for them, or at least make it devastating to recover from the cost of activating it. The point of a card game is interacting with each other's cards and strategies and overcoming the bar placed, not having a board immune to anything the opponent might consider.
I'm more of a casual yugioh player not really taking it seriously so when I was playing master duel for the first time this year it amazed me on how to me at least annoying some duels would go. I haven't dealt with a flood gate but I have dealt with a person doing 5 minutes of stuff on their turn 1 activating so many effects and summoning monsters and so on that when it got to my draw phase that he was still doing more effects, I just couldn't deal with it. I love yugioh when I was a kid but seeing decks that just make it so your opponent can't even play the game or that you do 7 minutes of stuff before their turn even starts is just sad and annoying to me. Love the content as it has gotten me back into the card game
Unlimited special summoning is the problem, flood gates exist to stop your 86 step 6 hour combo. But no one wants to talk about that, everyone just complains about flood gates.
That's about it right there, if we want this crap to actually stop then there should be a hardline limit on Special Summons from your draw phase to your next draw phase. Imagine if there was a limit of five Special Summons for your turn (and during your opponent's turn which is a concept that really irks me) that would stop this Solitaire crap in its tracks.
Special summoning is just way too easy nowadays. It used to be that the game was largely dictated by normal summoning with special summons being reserved for a big play that either took set up or came at a large cost.
Some floodgates are toxic, but I still have more of a problem with "one card starters that plus on everything, setting up multiple negates, with recursion even IF you break through them" decks.
The problems are the negates really, remove negates and it's all good. Then make sure monsters float, stop attacks, etc, AND give you drawing power when a condition is met(actual drawing, not search deck).
I like it when they make new support for older archtypes or even make very old vanilla monsters into a new archtype (Memento for example) but sometimes Konami makes decisions that create an underwhelming experience. I really like that Ancient Gears got new support and the new cards are pretty fun but a few still have to include not being able to set cards if you activate a specific effect and some still can't be special summoned. The Transcendosaurus archtype is a really cool idea and I love when new Dinosaur cards are added but their effects aren't super unique and have a very specific requirement if you want to use their effects to revive them.
13:30. I think the reason is that some decks revolving around older Archetypes just cannot keep up with the power and speed of higher-tier decks. Yes, you have Konami rolling out legacy support for older decks and archetypes but sometimes that just isn't enough to close the gap, not to mention some Archetypes rarely get any legacy support because they don't have nostalgia behind them. Floodgates the only reliable way to even the playing field.
Nah you won’t say that once someone goes full combos summoning 9 different times but you have chance if it weren’t for the fact they ended on a stupid dinosaur fossil with 1200atk after going special summon turbo as much as they want previously.
Surprised I only just learned the meaning of Floodgate. I always just called it "Solitaire" or "Dramatic Coin Flip". Few things more aggravating than aggreeing to sit down and PLAY the card game. We flip the coin to decide turn order, they win the flip and go first, I sit and watch them play their entire deck like a game of Solitaire, then they say "Ok, so now I've set my board the same way I always do like clockwork, I have two digits worth of negates, you play nothing I win... wanna flip a coin again?"
Wait what? Just based on what was said around 12 Minutes in. You say the solution to wanting to play an older/non-meta deck is to abandon it and play meta. Vs. The solution to floodgates being draw the out or scoop. The way you talk about it Floodgates are worse, but I mean come on. One of those is making me draw a removal card, the other is telling me to drop what i'm playing entirely and use an archetype or playstyle I wouldn't enjoy. Not saying they don't both blow. I will say I've never been as frustrated by a Skill Drain as I have Omni-negate boards. EDIT: You say that nerfing decks to the level of older/non-meta decks isn't the solution. Elevating decks is... But isn't a common complaint about modern Yugioh it's speed?Wouldn't nerfing decks return the game to a more back and forth slower paced exchange? Look I'd just vote for whatever has turns not take 3-10 minutes, personally.
12:51 As a Dinomorphia player, I'm happy to see Rexterm isn't here. Granted, if you put Tyrant Tirade on this, Rexterm would need to be one tier below, as Tyrant Tirade also stops hand effects of monsters from activating, which Rexterm doesn't do as it only affects the field, and Tirade is a blanket floodgate, Rexterm only affects monsters with attack equal or higher than the LP of its controller. Only upsides in comparison between the two is Rexterm has attack manipulation, making it good against people that don't commonly engage or have ever fought Dinomorphia, and Rexterm only affects the opponent. I'd have to disagree with Rexterm to one, as he's actually too easy to deal with. If the archetype had a proper way to protect it rather than just hoping you have Sonic and a spare Dinomorphia monster, or Intact, him going to 1 would be fine, but it lacks this. Then you have the fact his destruction effect doesn't work if he's sent somewhere, making it, again, too easy to handle for a lot of decks. Dinomorphia also has serious issues against certain archetypes, like Yubel and Sky Striker.
Here's my take on floodgates: they're a necessary evil to keep combo decks in check, just like handtraps. They're only real a problem when the combo decks can search them as part of their end board (Such as sending it to GY with a card like Beatrice and using another effect to set on the field) or if they're Mystic Mine.
@@jo-neallewis6385 to be fair there's not very many outs to a board full of monster omni negates, except for dark ruler no more, which is basically a one turn floodgate lol
@anthonym840 DRNM, droplet, sphere mode (LG), ultimate slayer and out playing. Also handtraps before it gets to that point. Vs harpies at 1, LS at 2 and evenly
@@jo-neallewis6385 yeah i use most of those in spliceable decks too. Like i actually play weird stuff like royal poker knights which i find works well with droplet, and divine providence. I also played sphere mod in that deck too lol but i find Grand horn of heaven just devistates most multi play decks. But sometimes ur out of luck in that ur opponent somehow still has the resources to go off of something. So i usually result to dark ruler no more, niburu, laval golem, or sphere mod. But i do want to emphasize that i hate that any of it is necessary to begin with, as it just tales awsy any pure deck run ideas. Only reason i add any of those cards is if a main pure deck strategy can benifit off of it being in the deck somehow. Like i built a deck centered around lord of the red, so i added alpt of hand traps that he can quick effect off of if my opponent wont do it.
In general concept no, In execution kind of Imo the easiest way to fix it is make them all like Cold wave, only make them ALL spells(or VERY low stat monsters), and they must be the first card activated during your turn so at *all* points *both* players are playing under it I think it's perfectly fair to have a deck built around a floodgate because you're giving up other options to do so The one of the main problem with the game now is meta decks absolutely breaking the cards meant to raise up weaker decks in a neverending arms race of powercreep because Konami isn't adding enough restrictions to keep cards in their intended unbroken lane Imo to "fix" a good part of the game to start with would be to limit negation effects to exclusively trap cards and limit floodgates to continuous spells Ban everything else and give it the appropriate replacement version 13:51 because it's not possible anymore as stated above Combo decks in general aren't a problem it's what the Combos lead to remove all the negateseon monsters and sure they can fill the board but they shouldn't have any interaction in exchange as their benefit
The sad truth is that nearly everything in YuGiOh! has become toxic. The constant power creep is so insane that fair/balanced cards just do not get played, because they are simply considered "bad". In the end do all successful decks try to keep the opponent from playing. Whether that's through floodgates, (omni-)negate boards, one card combos to be paired with 3+ hand traps, a simple OTK, Kashtira with their zone locking or even Tearlament which starts a new 5 minute chain every time you dare activate an effect during your own turn (and the latter two aren't even considered meta-relevant, despite how insane their effects sound). With YuGiOh! having no resource system, it needs an incredibly careful approach to balancing - which gets immediately thrown out of the window because product management trumps game management. I really enjoy breaking boards or baiting the opponent's negate. What I don't enjoy is needing to play the one or two current meta-decks which are the only ones able to play through the other meta decks' slew of negates and protections. Which then also need cards costing hundreds of dollars.
I feel like Duel links' limited list system can solve this issue, by applying a different ype of limit, allowing these cards to still be playable, but you are limited to choosing which one you are able to play.
Normally I disagree with bringing decks and strategies down to a lower level, but in the case of Yugioh, I disagree. The game is now a coin toss of combo for the biggest thing turn one and hope your opponent can't stop you, not the careful and strategic game that I grew up watching.
@@Treasure_hunter_21 I literally described what you play in your deck for if you lose the coin toss that still allows you to play in modern yugioh. Floodgates actually do it 10x worse because then if you lose the coin toss you actually just lose because they’ve already setup on you. If I have a setup red dragon archfiend board and you set 2, and normal summon pachy Dyna I’ve already won because I won the coin toss. But if you played a deck with competent engine and a board breaker to deal with a boss monster of mine, now we have an actual duel that plays out and can take a few turns.
@@Rossco1010 Competent engine? Not every one wants to emrace meta slavery. ANd they arent budget friendly in the slightest. Both things are equally bad if going second. The diffrence is: in one case your opponent setups like 1-2 min, while in the other 10+ min. And if you draw backrow removal you at least can try to remove floodgates. Thats aint gonna work against full omni negate board.
@@Treasure_hunter_21 what are you talking about? “Meta slave” dude I just talked about red dragon archfiend an anime deck that got a cheap structure deck a year ago. The decks both not big meta nor expensive. So your entire argument went out the door immediately. Learn modern yugioh if you’re going to critique it like that. Also omni negates are not common as endboard pieces. We aren’t in 2021 anymore, boards don’t end on 5 omni negates, they end on maybe 1 for evenly matched and lots of other interactions like pops. People complaining about never ending negates haven’t played since 2021 (2022 for master duel) where that design of gameplay has been deliberately toned down. They even banned cards like Appolousa and Baronne in the tcg.
Back in the day I could make an argument why flood gates might be the worst thing in Yugioh but even then there was quite a bit of interaction between players, nowadays I welcome floodgates, it's the only time when games have some back and forth, for many years competitive Yugioh is a game of solitary lasting 5-10 min.
I used Skill Drain early in Master Duel's life because it was my only defence against more powerful one card combo decks. I'm afraid floodgates sometimes are a necessity to actually play.
Floodgates ruin Yugioh yes, but do you know what else ruins Yugioh? How fast the entire game has gotten. In my opinion, the game feels WAY too fast. Stuff happens way too quickly and thus it doesn't feel like you're playing a game, you're not interacting with your opponent. And for any of you who say "Oh just play GOAT format", I shouldn't have to be forced to play a different format just to play a slower, more interactive game. That's why I've moved on from Yugioh [I still support you TGS because these anime duels and analyses into different aspects into this game is fun to watch] to Magic the Gathering, its given me that slow-paced gameplay that I've been wanting.
It is more of a case if "you can not have two things", you can get interactive back and forth games if, and a vey big IF, both decks are on the same level, a.k.a Meta vs Meta, the issue of being unable to play arises when you also want to play a beloved themed deck be it something old or something new but not good enougth , so you either play something that is not your favorite and get an interactive, intense game, or you play what you like to play and is not competitive and just do not get to play at all. ( If you so happen to genuinely like a meta deck, well those are exceptions and may they be happy playing their decks)
@PBJA89-w8rah yes. Flipping one and stopping your opponent from accessing a part of the game is fun. An end board of a bunch negates isn’t fun either but don’t act like that’s the reason floodgates are banned
I think the real issue is generic summoning conditions... no boss monster is locked into its deck like the old ones. Quasar, Blazar, calamity, etc. are all generic and can be splashed into ANYA synchro deck... Monsters need to be locked into their archetypes, and a lot of this can and will stop outside of the old floodgates. If you have to pay reasonator/ree dragon will you want to play calamity?? Probably not This is why i quit EVERYTHING is splashable. To a degree, especially the extra deck, thats where yugioh went wrong and needs to clean up..
And to konami's credit They are trying......after 25 or so years of the game Yeah, only NOW are they banning apo, barrone, savage but yeah...i see your point
i love the floor gate it feels like a f you to people who likes to one summon millions of monsters with monster effects or spell effects it feels like im playing the regular yugioh card game again
Floodgates were always justice. Its the combo deck players that insisted on playing solitaire instead of Duel Monsters that are the problem. Shame Konami decided to cater to them. There used to be a time where rogue decks and old archtypes were able to compete against meta decks thanks to floodgates.
I think something people just need internalized at this point is that yu-gi-oh, at its core now, is all about making sure your opponent can't play. Doesn't matter how you get there, that's just the name of the game though
The game has gotten too fast and too consistent to let the other guy get a damn move off. That's why the best opening hand is usually 1 15 step combo starter that does everything you ever want to get your entire board off the ground. And 4 handtraps.
Yeah, I’ve made a blue-eyes deck with some meta cards to prevent playing. Two of each of these, Ash, imperm, called by, ghost ogre, effect veil. I run drowning, quaking and storming mirror forces, magical cylinders and magic cylinder. It’s real heavy on the stun/floodgate, that’s part of the reason I built a bare bones 40 card Blue-Eyes tribe deck, it’s a little more fun than the Meta deck. My modern-meta Blue-Eyes is a little too unfun from an interaction point for my opponents. Usually by the second ash, or first called by they quit. Even after seeing the actual archetype and thinking they have a chance. Which, arguably in certain cases, they do. They don’t call it “Brick Eyes” for nothing.
I like watching DuelLogs Failed Archetypes and 9 times out of 10 the reason a Deck is featured there is "It's too slow," "Can't set up a board," "Can't play through disruption," or "Doesn't let you interact with your opponents board/disrupt their plays." The other 1 time being When/If or a Lack of a Boss/Theme. But damn. If I can't win without just boxing my opponent out of the game, then I'm not interested.
if floodgates are toxic, so are turn 1 endboards with like 43 negates etc... Also, if you play MD best of 1 and dont play counters to it, because you'll lose consistency in your deck - It's on you. Maybe people should start to build decks more all-around to be able to deal with any situation instead of "i either combo 25 cards in turn 1 or i'll lose to floodgates"
So I was thinking about similar stuff. So let me present you my fixes for YGO (remember this is similar to the video a general hit so some decks needs to be adjusted): 1. Ban generic floodgates, Archetypal at one (same as the video). 2. Ban generic draws and bosses (self explanatory Barone was a mistake and so were the Pot retrains). 3. Limit all Bossmonsters (here the first exception becomes apparent as decks like Salad would just die when you do this). 4. Ban „one card“ bridges (so ban Closed Heaven is banned, Yama is banned, but Exciton Knight are still legal. Basically generic archetypal links that are too easy to summon but also cards like Banshee that get you 1 card bridges like Corridor or Flag, in which case its a case by case scenario). 5. Limit HT to be only be activatable if you control no monsters. 6. Ban generic OTK tools (like Accesscode or Topologic Zeroborus). Sure some decks would be nerfed to oblivion (like Unchained [Yama and Tourguide banned, any Soul card limited, SP banned Unicorn limited also just one Caesar and no Zeus]). However we then could start to think about how to either balance out those banned cards (like requiring Yama an Unchained card). But also we can see how decks adapt to these changes. Like in YGO there are so many little synergies that can be substituted in (like Bystial Runick or Branded Tear but also more obscure stuff like Bird up or Labrynth D/D Unchained). YGO would become kinda like finding the perfect synergies to squeeze out the potential of any deck. Also it would allow a cardtype to finally see play that couldn’t see play before and thats the recyclers. Lab Setup for example or other cards similar to it would see play. So the game would also revolve around setting up your engines in such a way that you recycle one of them while the other keeps you alive. Btw all I mentioned would still leave a lot of decks in a too powerful position (like Lab would still have Daruma and Rollback as well as Arias. They would just loose 1 Angel 1 Lady and if you really push it you could ban Ariane; similarly Ritual beast would just loose Shifter, but they wont have to worry about droll and they would loose Banshee into Flag into Protos but they still could go into a Gryphon next turn. They also loose Apo, SP and IP but their main engine is basically untouched). So yeah this isn’t perfect but a solid start. Thanks for reading this text wall. Do you have questions? Ideas? Leave a comment down below and Im happy to elaborate/discuss with you. Have a nice day AEther
I have complaints. Yama is fine, Unchained is perfectly balanced deck that takes skill to pilot. Ban broken Yubel support instead if you don't want Fiend Link to be a thing, it literally has contact fusion from grave.
@@kindlingking my man. I love Yama. I love Fiendlink. But the fact that Yubel is better at building an Unchained board than Unchained itself is a problem. And nothing you do to Yubel changes that except killing the deck outright. Yama being an Unchained soul of everything while being generic for any Fiend deck is a problem. Because 1 card bridges (aka most generic Link 2s are a problem). So either ban Yama or Errata it to require an Unchained card. And trust me if you think Unchained would die when these ideas become the norm you would be surprised how slaughtered the Meta would be (at least for the moment). Because there are still many ways to bridge between archetypes (like Crystal beast allows you even under the rules I have here to end on a mix of Springans, Branded, Tri-brigade and Therion). Also why I said that this isn’t a perfect ban list is because of a few over tuned cards. For example Alba Zoa would need to get banned (or most of the generic Ritual enablers like Archlight, Prepreap and Impcantations) because of the nature of the game. Similarly Kashtira basically has to die because there are a lot more one ofs Kash could simply banish forever (again they could be Errata to banish face up and Shangrie would only trigger from banishes from a Kash card). We also should address the elephant in the room as I never once talked about Boardbreakers. Most decks can’t defend against them and multiples are basically a guaranteed victory even when we ban most of the generic otk enablers. So the heavy stuff like Superpoly and DRNM should probably be banned as they don’t allow counter play that is feasible for most decks to achieve. To address finally your question: Yubel loses 2 Phantoms what basically means that most of their combos and recycling just falls flat. They loose 2 Pain as it is an archetypal floodgate. They will loose Eternal Favorite because it is a bridge for Heros and its a bridge for Superpoly. They would basically loose access to the Fiendsmith cards except when they open Engraver. No Varudras and Apo leaves basically only Gryphon as an generic extra deck option for them. No accesscode or Zeroboros makes it hard for Yubel to find an OTK. And with Yama being booted out of the deck one way or another they would suddenly get competition from both Unchained and Lab. On its own Yubel becomes a worse version of Mikanko or Tenpai. They basically need Ariane to even compete (especially since Salvation and Ancient Fairy dragon as well as Terra forming and Set Rotation are banned similarly to Trivikama would be at 1 or banned). So there is no easy way to bridge via Fieldspells. Hope you understand my reasoning better. If you still have questions/suggestions I answer them with joy. Have a nice day AEther
A very interesting topic. As someone that isn't interested in meta or higher level duels I don't use floodgates but whenever I want to try the top tier ranks I'll add a couple of floodgates to slow down whatever is meta at the moment. I generally don't like floodgates that straight up counter 50% of the game because thats too oppresive.
If you spend 10 minutes trying to set-up a board to tell your opponent 'lol no', then how is that different than putting down one card to tell your opponent 'lol no' and saving us both time? You are supposed to negate and stop your opponent as part of the strategy, so I don't see how that is inherently a bad thing. Sure, some floodgates feel a bit more overpowered than others, but you can always get around those too. I say this as a Gravekeeper player, so I acknowledge I may be a bit biased.
The lingering floodgates (D barrier, D D Ground, EEVirus, searchable with staple (ex. TT Thrust, Trap Trick), or in archetype (Lady Lab, recyclable with Lovely Lab too), are wrong because either you deny them activation or bye . Against continuous floodgates however, in addition to denying them you can destroy them with an industrial amount of backrow removal.
I would Ban the entire Runick arcetype and ALL Floodgates regardless of Arctyple relations except "Mind Drain" to the Forbidden List and unlimit "Called by the Grave". Card Effects are more effective and healthier as pulse reactions than being continuously applied. No Exceptions.
One recent major problem with floodgates is that a lot of new archetypes are designed to be able to turn floodgates on and off. Snake-Eye can send their floodgates for cost. Ryzeal can reattach Mereologic Aggregator (sent directly from Extra Deck to GY by their own in-archetype cards) as an Xyz Material and send it to turn off their floodgates during their own turn. Powersink Stone lets you do the "I play in your turn" thing that almost exclusively is done by newer, more powerful archetypes, and then it floodgates your opponent even harder than Skill Drain. In theory this is an interesting step of game design, in practice it's "strong decks get stronger." The argument against "buff older decks" is mainly one of practicality. There are so many older decks that are "almost" competitive and it's easier to print a couple cards to lower the game's power level than it is to buff up every old deck. If you gave each deck a numeric power ranking of 0 to 100, it's easier to try and make decks into, say, the 60-70 range, focusing on buffing the decks that are most in need of it and not even needing to touch most of the decks that are already of middling power than it is to try and raise every single deck to a 90-100. There's also that as the game speeds up it does ultimately cause a lot of decks to lose their identities and do more of the same thing. When the power level is really high you don't have the luxury of doing a lot of unique strategies that might be just slower. Say the Destiny Board deck, if you wanted it to be competitive it would need to amass its letters on the first turn, which at the end of the day would make it just a different flavor of FTK, as it stands with the field spell Destiny Board is stronger while not losing that gameplay style, but it isn't good against most meta decks. Even extremely pushed archetypes can be waiting years for support, let alone someone whose favorite deck is unpopular. Having to constantly cycle between legacy support is tough, but trying to make the game be at a relatively lower power level allows older decks to compete without needing new support. If you say, "I want a format where Dream Mirror, Ghoti, Fire King and S-Force are all around the same power level" the easier thing to do would be to use Ghoti as your benchmark, buff up Dream Mirror a little, S-Force a lot, and nerf Fire King.
This is from someone who quit YuGiOh years ago, at the rise of LinkMonsters... But IMO what ruined YuGiOh for the majority of the casual players was search effects becoming dominant. Sure, of course it boosts consistency and you don't need to find a way to make the cards in your hands work... But I think that was the beauty of YuGiOh up to 2008 or so, you had to work with the cards in your hand with some very limited ways to get what you wanted to make your strategy work... Nowadays it is more about just working up plays over and over around the same cards that you have way too many ways to get to work.
For me its the unfairness of meta decks that have less to no locks or restriction, and high summoning flexibility Look at tear, snake eyes, fiendsmith. They just keep coming back! Fusion route blocked? Okey go to link, and let the snowball rolls again. Its just unfair when ash, nib, ghost, cant even reduce their endboard product
@@MrIsleNFair I do agree with that too, the meta decks, and honestly even rogue strategies just have way too many ''this that and those'' pre-set plays. I might be saying this without that much of an insight into modern yugioh, I did give it up, I only watch matches now, but every match has the same-ish strategy. Play this, get that, search that, send the grave, yada yada repeat. It's almost like duels are scripted now. You don't work around what your opponent has, you just do your own play and it is already premade to counter about anything possible.
@@linkaiser8709 That just about sums it up. Maybe not in a nutshell, some are a wee bit different, but it does a good job. Another big issue I'm not seeing mentioned is the Extra Deck. The Extra Deck is a nightmare, going from being something to get your big bad boss out to just a deck you can nab whatever card from as long as you play a singular card that goes "ye just get whatever the hell you're running out" It doesn't need search, it's very generalized, has loads of effects, and is absurdly cheap. The game basically has 3 decks now, two of which you don't need to search (graveyard and extra) and one of which you just search without consequence.
Yugioh needs to balance its effects by having conditions be needed. For example Cyber Blader has cool effects that change depending on the amount of monsters your opponent controls. Having a condition contingent on whats on the field helps. Feather duster may not have been as ubiquitous if Harpie Lady was needed to activate it.
I personally dont mind Floodgates too much, but then again I was joyusly blessed with having a best friend who would almost always play some form of control or stun deck(Thunder Dragons and Salads back in their prime) while I sat there and struggles with my hero deck(back when the best play was Trinity OTK). So I just kinda got use to them.
there is no problem and reason why is the only show up in stun decks unless the format is ruled by 1-4 decks then they show up. this is also why having them at 1 is dumb because having then at three in an open format meant if you wanted to use them they would be the only things in your side deck. mystic mine is a great example the card absolutely sucks but because people hated it they started playing it to get it banned. look at snake-eyes skill drain, summon limit, they just used to best available card even though they didn't need it there easily able to play through boards. summon limit was only played because the two choice floodgates were hit TCOBO and rivalry. stun has played these cards for ages and people know how to counter a stun deck that right there proves they are fine. to me as long as hand traps cards that auto win against lower tier decks exist then floodgates are a needed evil
Snake eyes use this 2 floodgates because 3 of his cards are bad card design effect, (send 1 or 2 cards you control to grave ...) is the problem. SE Ash, Oak and Sinful spoil. If they cant remove their floodgates with this stupido effect...
@@desertline6272 that can be stopped to prevent the negation. however we will watch this space because if i'm right once azamina comes out and snake eyes is on top again they will not play skill drain but instead the next best flood at 3
I feel like part of the issue of people wanting to play fun nostalgic decks and the modern super speed of the game could be resolved with officially sanctioned formats. Like more than 15 people would play GOAT or Edison if they were an option on Master Duel. And then Konami could even make money by reprinting those old cards to support those formats for real life tournaments.
If youre trying to play competitive/semi competitive yugioh, it is the correct answer. If youre trying to just have fun with friends then its a whole different story
A deck mainly consusting of Floodgates is the Buster Blader archetypes. The "Buster Lock" is stopping them from using the extra deck, monsters can not activate effects, and all their monsters are stuck in Defence.
Interesting observation regarding the heroes floodgates. I didn't know it had so many. At the very least 1 of 2 of them has been powercrept out. Dark angel is just bad to play now. Congrats, you stopped your opponent from using spells, at least until they take the free material you gave them for a link summon and use it. Not sure how good Cosmo neos is. Seems bad, imo, being so reliant on getting neospacians to the field, but maybe I just don't know how good that archetype is now. And the plasma is good, but needing 3 tributes and only having 1900 attack with no protection...he's kind of easy to get over. I play a heroes deck and half the time I can't even get him out because I'll only have 2 tributes on the field alongside my end board monsters. Dark law, though, that I can understand people taking issue with. Super easy to get out, and locks off the gy. Devastating for some decks.
I feel similarly as a hero player. Dark law I would say is at least semi-understandable as it only has 2400, and nowadays it seems a lot of decks seem to have monsters that SS themselves from hand and have 2500ish. Ran a bunch of duels in the duelist cup, WITHOUT going into dark law while going first, and just got obliterated on repeat, even through my full combo. I started next duel with dark law, and FINALLY started to see some slow down. Almost feels like a requirement for heroes
Do people really prefer sitting there waiting 20 minutes for your opponent to combo off and build a board that prevents you from playing compared to an opponent that just goes set 5 pass?
I think that omni negates are even more toxic than floodgates. You can play around floodgates way easier if you are willing to hit the consistency of your deck a little than having something that essentially goes "oh you want to use this? Nah mate one of my 70 negates say no try again in the next duel". Honestly omni-negates and one card starters need to go away if floodgates are to go. We can't just have every deck just go "I barf my entire deck in one turn now deal with it!"
Well you can say the same shit qbout omnis. Run dark ruler or droplets lol just make your deck less consistent. And no omnis are not worse because they are one for one trade floodgates are everything for one trade. Omnis can be god awfull to play againts if there is a critical mass of them but there isnt right now
@@MateusSoarlet’s not go chicken or egg here. End board negates are a problem but I’ll take that off floodgates. I blame one card combos for that honestly
"You can play around floodgates way easier if you are willing to hit the consistency of your deck" Yeah, that sounds good in theory but is practically impossible haha
"Super Starslayer TY-PHON - Sky Crisis" is also a popular card that have floodgate effects, but banning it kinda defeats the whole reason of its existence against "Divine Arsenal AA-ZEUS - Sky Thunder"
The whole game personally feels like you get floodgated at all times... you just have to wait for your opponent to play 20 cards for half an hour before we get there... if you have a floodgate it just expedited the 20 activations wait...
I believe there is at least different levels of severity when it comes to Floodgate effects that can at least stay in the game. There is a reason why Kashtira Ariseheart is banned, while Virtual World Kyubi is not.
I remember getting a friend of mine into Yugioh They built a pretty good dark magician deck, won a couple times against me ...then i busted out Traptrixs and they were *baffled* lmao
I don’t play yugioh anymore but I think it’s way pass fixing this issue. Floodgates are needed against the endless torrent of SS that the game encourages now. If you just keep the floodgates, that’s toxic. If you just keep the SS gameplay, that’s toxic too. Konami would have to ban a majority of cards from the last decade at this point.
But they won't if anything they probably might endorse it later like Konami is just on $$$ Mode at this point the only way to have them know you dislike their Decisions is to just NOT PAY vote with your Wallet not with your Fanservices.
@@ninjabros6282 i haven't played for quite a while. maybe close to a decade? not sure. but once SS and negates started becoming extremely prevalent, i stopped playing at all.
Thing is that floodgates don’t fix this problem, they’re only useful going first, minus the few hand trap variants. They also result in boring games where the opponent literally can’t do anything, unless they luck into the right card. Hand traps deal with this problem better as it generates interaction between players, though even they’re struggling to hold back the power creep
@@waylander9265 hand traps weren't nearly as strong as before i quit. so i can't even pretend to speak about hand traps being a useful or not against the SS heavy style.
Floodgates are hated by combo players, but combo players are just floodgate players with extra steps, as neither let you play the game when done optimally
@@dannyboers4704 more effort? yeah, sure. more skill? more skill? not really, the end result is the same; your opponent can't play the game. combo players just get upset because floodgates are cheaper to play, so they take the "holier than thou" attitude because they spent more money
@@dannyboers4704 this has been a complaint long before Master Duel was a thing. People have been complaining about Skill Drain ever since it came out in 2013, getting Yata locked is technically getting floodgated, people have complained about not being allowed to play the game for decades now. The difference between floodgate players and combo players is about 10-15 minutes of watching your opponent play solitaire. The metagame has always been toxic, I just get amused when people try to take a “I’m better than you” attitude when they’re doing the same thing they’re complaining about.
@@nuttybuddy7928 It does take more skill. Playing around or through handtraps takes at least some game knowledge and practice. Activating floodgates doesn't
I feel like yugioh should have a policy where before every tournament like a week before or so, there should be a vote on a archetype to ban, where players can select up to 3 archetypes and the 3 archetypes with the most votes are not allowed to be played in the tournament, i think this would make tournament play much more diverse with players being different decks instead of the same deck every time.
"Flood gates are bad because you can't stop them unless you have the response in hand to counter them. However, I like having high speed counters and responses in my deck to counter my opponents cards: they could stop me if they just have the response to my cards in their hand." Your argument sounds like, to me, "your [oppressive] fun isn't fun unless it's my kind of [oppressive] fun."
I agree with you as well. Yu-Gi-Oh was far more fun when It was a back and forth tug-of-war kind of thing. Where the next card could be your last, and my some miracle heart of the cards luck or math and probability being in your side you draw the perfect one card that can save you. For example I'll go waaaaay back and set this up. Your opponent has destiny board with I-N-A on board and they end turn. You have 30 of 40 cards left in your deck and only 1 of them is mystical space typhoon, dust tornado, heavy storm, giant trunade etc etc etc. if you draw it you have a chance to play and win if not opponent wins next turn. The tension and excitement was what made Yu-Gi-Oh so much fun. Now it's 99% sit and watch opponent on turn 1 set things up so you have a mathematical 0% chance of winning.
@@pinkiepiebiggestfan6099Yugioh was never really that. You just didn't play meta when you were a kid Meta back then was hand ripping. Good luck winning when on turn 1 your opponent has already ripped 2 or 3 cards out of your hand
They need very specific hands to do what your describing. Having seen old top tier decks, they still averaged 5 to 15 turns. Yes the game can end in the old days within 2 to 3 turns but even back then it was far from standard and literal factorials more inconsistent. Yu-Gi-Oh has optimized the fun out of itself and is a very common problem for choice heavy games that promote efficiency and synergy.
@@PlayWithThatBlackGuy yeah I did on occasion play the meta. I played the Yugi dark magician, I played the kaiba blue eyes, I played the joey red eyes. I also on occasion would play so called rouge decks like burn, mill, destiny board, exodia, and later god card decks personal fav was slifer. The back and forth I was speaking of was allowed and usually the case for the first 4-6 turns of the duel. Not always there were times by my turn 3 I had no real chance of winning due to cards opponent played and that was fine. The back and forth aspect was enabled by the fact that it took 2-4 turns to get your boss monster out, your ideal spell/trap set-up ready, your game controlling monster effects on the field. When I was spending 2-4 turns setting things up, you my opponent had 2-4 turns to either stop or delay what I was trying to do long enough to get your strategy established. You had those turns to set up your strategy to defeat me. Maybe I had a counter on field like a mirror force or torrential tribute or something else to counter your play or maybe I didn't. Now Yu-Gi-Oh isn't about that strategy, that mental game of chess to counter your opponent. No modern Yu-Gi-Oh is all about winning on turn one, making sure your opponent cannot make any moves or plays, to turn what could take 5-20 or do minutes to win into winning within the first 30 seconds of a duel.
I haven't played yugioh in many years but some of my favorite cards ever were Level limit area-B, ground collapse etc. Every mono attribute deck i played had gozen match and statues. I was a mono light fairy player for too long ...and loved it. So much odd jank for control.
Gotta say after watching the entire video still hope for an enjoyable game: dark door, nightmare steel cage,swords of concealing dark, tornado wall, (does sanctuary in the sky count?) there is also the weird trap that locks 2 spell trap zones it has a stack of packages on it Xiao something or other...(Yes this is all from memory...I didn't get to play much apparently people don't like not playing)
I think every criticism you can lobby at floodgates you can also use against decks that set up boards with multiple omni-negates. As such I don't really understand why the popular opinion is "floodgates, bad! Mass negation, good", they both accomplish the same thing (stopping you're opponents from playing the game). I do agree with point that older/rogue decks should be receiving support to raise them up rather than using tools to bring more modern/better decks down. However it must be said that philosophy is dependent on Konomi releasing support for them and given the vast numbers of older decks to support it's just not feasible to expect that EVERY deck will receive support. With that in mind; if a particular floodgate can help an under-supported archetype compete against whichever behemoths are dominating the meta at that particular point in time, that helps take away the onus to support an archetype from konami and places it in the hand of the player. And frankly, being able to pilot an older archetype to victory consistently shows good deck building skill
We’re doing this currently in our discord format. It is sort of like a hydra, you cut one head off they grow back 2 more. We banned skill drain, tcboo, gozen, anti spell, rivalry, all barrier statues, dyna, kristya, fiends, jowgen etc etc Players pivot to necrovalley, mistake, garbage like aurora paragon lol But it isn’t nearly as bad as the insane floods so ultimately it is possible to hit them but not ban them all and have a fun game
I just wish they were more balanced especially skill drain to make you pay 1500 each rune to keep it on field. One and done basically makes it unstoppable for trap decks or stall decks. This way the time limit is fair.
The only way to circumvent this is a relaunch with redesigned rules, OR new arbitrary rules in place. The game designers are in a corner with trying to design around this games historically messy resource system. And they will NEVER just do some crazy soft relaunch, or mass ban cards, or anything like that, because that messes with the business model. You have to be careful with rending too many cards unplayable at once when so much money is spent to build ones collection in the first place.
Omni-Negate/Negate Boards are floodgates. They prevent you from playing the game... Don't they? "Well if you went 1st and the Negate board is yours who cares if the opponent does not get to play. They can just surrender and play another game or play a "bet(meta)ter deck." But when your opponent summons Dyna or activates Skill Drain... or Rexterm for me :D... Oh.. Floodgates make the YGO unplayable? No. Keep that same energy. Surrender and go play another match. OR... Ra forbid, you learn to play around these cards. Edit: I hope you keep the same energy that you've displayed here in your Omni-Negate video.
@@BlinkSh0t hand traps a literal scourge. And Ild feel different if they were used as part of your archetype BUT NO, you use them freelance to stop me from playing as well and waaayyyy more toxic you ask me. That and Kashitas
I completely agree. Omni negative boards make the game near unplayable for most decks. Also hand traps need to be banned. Ash blossom ghost ogre Maxx C all of em. Yugioh as a game needs to slow down to become fun again. Like what's the point of playing if your opponent is going to bring out this unbreakable board turn 1 and then you can't play the game? What happened to the longer drawn out duels of epic proportions where good deck building and strategies reign supreme, other than your opponent saying "You can't play the game"
So what do yall want? To play freely without interruption? Set up that "floodgatey board" without consequence? I'll admit, that sounds awesome but we'll end up in a similar state to where we are now. Hand Traps offer that Interactivity. Ash hinders your one card starters. Maxx C deters you from giving the opponent an advantage. Mind you, I don't remember which, if it's OCG or TCG, Maxx C isn't even hated from what I heard. I often wondered "What if YGO had Chess levels of Interaction from turn 1, what kind of game would it be?" Hand Traps offer that..... to varying extents. It may not be a great solution, given the replies, but it is one.
@@BlinkSh0tI dunno, go back to Edison/post Edison. Turns go back and forth, there are some hand traps but not many, back row is strong and decks build up to wins instead of just ejaculating onto the field turn 1
More than floodgates, the biggest problem with Master Duel is the many, many, many players that what feels like 10 minutes per turn just to end with a board that doesn't let you play (be it because they're new and just copied the deck or because they're just evil like that). I've never been as frustrated as seeing a person vomit half their deck on turn one and end with like 3 negates on board + 3 hand traps.
Yes absolutely as long as I can normal summon and attack I'm okay. If I can't even do that I'm annoyed and feel like I wasted time letting them take 10 minutes setting up! Despite there only being 5 on the clock!
I think it really depends on the Floodgate that we're talking about because you have some where it locks you from doing something, but doesn't outright prevent you from playing the game + depending on the deck you're playing it might not affect you at all. You know something like "There Can Be Only One" Then you have floodgates like "Vanity's Emptiness" or "Imperial Order" which, for a majority of decks outside of a very, very, VERY few exceptions, might as well just say "You can't play the game. Scoop it up"
I like floodgates because they are the only way for an older archetype to have a chance in today's yugioh. This game needs a resource cost for actions, and has needed it for many years. How exactly is it supposed to be fun to play against something that vomits its entire deck onto the field/graveyard on the first turn to end with 5+ omni-negates AND recycle the used cards to be reused the next turn? This game was power-crept out of being fun for me too long ago, and now that Duel Links is suffering the same problem I have no way to play the game and actually have fun anymore.
If Yugioh had a resource cost like other card games, then it wouldn’t be Yugioh anymore. Not to mention that as long as Konami keeps its current mentality of card design, the same thing will only happen again.
@darkstorm2579 interestingly, they are experimenting with resources right now with the shining sarcophagus archetype and a couple others. I like what they are doing with them.
@@zeroenna8554 What are you talking about (not being rude, I'm genuinely curious on what you mean)? I have a Shining Sarcophagus deck and while I do love it, its major problem is no consistent way of getting the Shining Sarcophagus card (if you have Gadget Trio search it and the opponent negates it, then you're screwed). The archetype definitely needs more support, although I do like that it doesn't rely on the Extra Deck so much like other decks do (save for Dragoon or Draglubion).
@@darkstorm2579 I will rephrase, I like the direction that they are taking with these archetypes. I agree that some consistency boosters would be nice, but I also see how difficult it can be to increase consistency without going too far. Yugioh is terrible for future-proofing.
@@zeroenna8554 I see. That makes sense. Shining Sarcophagus is honestly a pretty fair deck, especially compared with the current competition. All it really needs is another way to search out the main card and it'll be perfect (and I hope in a non-broken way like we see with the current meta decks).
How about, "fuck you, stop relying on effects and broken spells you carry your wass" is the perfect response to so much meta B.S that's been happening to Yu-gi-oh these last few years.
TBH the thing I noticed about those that hate floodgates are the ones who typically play Meta or OTK decks and hate it when their "end duel in one turn" 'strategy' can't work and give them an instant win. That's my experience anyway...
LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER. Floodgates and such make decks that were already less than teir 0 to 1 pretty much unplayable. Good luck playing a for fun deck when some bozo pulls up with floodgates for no reason lol
FACTS. It's the number one thing I also noticed. Time and time again. There are so many cards that literally stop floodgates while they're active, before activation and afterwards. So the complaint about them just means they're not privy to what the rest of cards do in their library of cards. The game is literally built around there not being one card to rule them all. It's how you build the deck. Period. Don't like floodgates? Then add floodgate stoppers in your side deck. Which is what you should be doing anyway. Js
too many special summons in Yugioh, they should put a limit on that. Back then if you wanted a powerful monster you needed to sacrifice some now one monster can special summon 5 powerful monsters.
As a Pokemon TCG player, nah, some floodgates are fine. We have had cards that turn off abilities for a long time and this shuts down utility bench mons (which is strong and impactful). The ease to get the floodgate-like ability has changed through the years. The problem lies in the strength, abundance, and ease of these type of effects for Yu-Gi-Oh. I think it is even shown well in the portion going 1 by 1. Most of these cards are not problems and will never be problems for the meta because the effects are too limited, weak, or niche. Unnecessarily banning or limiting them then seems unreasonable and limits creativity (might as well implement rotation at that point). If a new card comes out that enables degenerate plays with one of these older cards, that is the card that should be banned or limited, not the card that has been fine to allow in play for decades.
I mean...we say that Floodgates "Nerf" meta decks and "We shouldn't bring "good" decks down so older ones can compete." But if that meta deck was really that good, why cant it play around/through/out the Floodgate? If you can't be Meta because Rivalry of Warlords is on the Field, slot in back row removal, vary up your Monster Types, do something. This game is simply too fast and too unforgiving (and arguably unfun) to not be kneecapping Tearlaments at every on-field opportunity, cause given the chance they will lock you out of the game. If were gonna say "Skill issue," to peoole who wanna play Dark Magician, Gustos, Toons, etc. fine, but lets keep that same energy when Macro Cosmos, Imperial Order, etc. are on the field and your deck is a paperweight. If not, then something has to slow this game down, cause this 4 Turn-Duel Era is NOT it.
It’s just one of many issues with modern yugioh. Floodgates wouldn’t be such an issue for people right now if the game wasn’t so fast as hell, like you said it’s a crutch for rogue decks. However the flip side is if we buff all rogue decks then that’s the power creep issue rearing its ugly head, and I think we can all agree that power creep has been an issue in the game for over a decade now. I’m glad you’re highlighting several issues and acknowledging that floodgates are definitely not the only problem.
They are a necessary evil annoying but without them there would be no game with the games extreme speed i support anything that makes the game last more than 4 turns.
For me i do enjoy working around floodgates, at least the more basic ones. Omni negates i do find demoralising though. Both in principle ‘stop you playing’ but one i see as a puzzle. The other is someone slapping your card out of your hand saying nope.
Its the same thing but the omninegate is way harder to counter since the opponent has the choice to do it anytime. I dont think omninegate is that unfair unless its something generic like barrone or borreload where anyone can bring it out. Then its still a puzzle, you just need to trick your opponent into negating something so you can finish off the full combo required to take back control of the duel
quick question, why hasn't Konami just did the same thing they did in the Synchro era & just removed a bunch of annoying meta cards, and then just make a new meta (preferably one that's a bit slower)? I remember it being mentioned that they did it back then to make Synchro's the new big thing, and banned a bunch of annoying cards part of that meta to make it focused around that, they could just do that again and I think a bunch of people would be happy.
Just To Clarify Overwhelmingly Powerful Floodgates aren't the only problem. An Equal Case Can Be Made For Generic Omni-Negate End Boards That Can Interrupt You 8 Times. Or The Disparity Between An Older Deck And The Hyper Consistency Of New Decks That Release. Perhaps We Can Talk About Those In The Future?
Well I guess you should follow up this video with Lector/Jinzo vs Kaiba
Or Crow vs Lazar
Thank you for this comment. A LOT of combo players in general refuse to admit that spamming the field full of generic omni negates is 100% just as unfair as floodgates
@@RayMon504 that's why most of the good generic omni negates have been getting hit. Baronne, gone, Apollusa, Gone, Savage Dragon, GONE
Well isn't this line of logic why Appolusia is getting banned??
@@RayMon504ich stimme dir zu 👍🏽
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I just wish it didn't feel like you *have* to play either meta or anti-meta. I just wanna build a deck around a cool archetype or monster :(
EDIT:
To clarify, since some peeps have mentioned this. I know you *can* run a less optimal deck, it's just personal experience. In casuals I still often run into omni-negates and floodgates a lot, which makes running my more niche decks less viable.
I think this is a very popular opinion!
You're spot on
That's just how the cookie crumbles when you're playing a competitive game unfortunately, it isn't just like that with YuGiOh (although with YuGiOh it's amplified because of the speed of the game and power of top strategies). You can play rogue decks but you're trading the power for the unfamiliarity your opponent will have with your deck and you win that way. It isn't going to be a win rate like you're playing snake eyes, but if you're playing something wacky than people aren't going to know what it's end goal is and you can cheese wins off of them that way lol
My guy, I will shake your hand and play you with my Blue-Eyes White Dragonmaid deck any day.
In master duel you actually could, in gold rank or lower 😅 also, within the middle and end of season, so that the sweaty meta users already in Plat or higher rank
I placed YGO back when floodgates existed but weren't overly common. What got me out of the game was the absurdity of turns where you can play through 1/3 of your deck in a single turn and shut off your opponent. That is less fun than having to deal with 1 or 2 floodgates
I love Yu-Gi-Oh with all my heart, but man do I fucking hate playing Yu-Gi-Oh
Sadly I feel the same way, grew up with the game in grade school and middle school. Wish to continue it but it's gotten to a point where it's monotonous
Mood
I want Chaotic back.😢
Same here. I will always cherrish the franchise with all my heart and continue so. But I can't support how broken the card games has been getting. Wish they would fix that. But I highly doubt it.
Change format
So I will say that I don't think floodgates are "inherently" bad for the game; but I do think it's because of how STUPIDLY OP the modern game's speed/meta has been for awhile. It bleeds into the decks too cause I feel like most new archetypes are just engines that have a bunch of effects that bounce off each other to lock your opponents lol.
Yep. Back in the day, floodgates lot of the times not much problem as lot of decks are running removal for it. Games aren't end in 1 turn so u can wait to draw those cards, play slow and set cards.
But yea as u said how modern YGO is being played made those older floodgates become more powerful than ever now.
Tbh both are fine to exist, as it counters each other. If one cease to exist, the other one need to. That's why nowdays time wizard formats getting more and more popular.
If you play a retro format. Floodgates weren't really an issue. The current culture of Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't promote a slow-paced gameplay, so a modern deck in 2024 is more likely to struggle with a floodgate than an old school one.
its funny how they complain about floodgates, yet the one card that could strain them enough to universally require them to have a way out got so much hate they banned it. gotta love mystic mine and how it could actually control the stupid fast games.
@@invertbrid That is a very good point about older floodgates became more powerful over time! Agreed, most didn't impact the game too much back. Now a floodgate will prevent many cards from being able to be played in the deck because of how many modern decks are built. This leads to them feeling unfair by some, understandably so. I agree- they both are needed to counter each other!
This exactly. A regular deck (not even specifically tailored, I really mean just a regular deck) can deal with floodgates easily. But no one wants to play normal decks anymore: they want to SPAM SPAM SPAM to get out 10 Extra Deck monsters per turn (that's including monsters just used as material again). Decks are one-trick ponies now that merely give an illusion of versatility, but floodgates break that illusion and stop such decks entirely. Rather than recognizing that, people just stubbornly kept continuing, instead relying on Konami to just ban/limit certain cards. But the banlist should only be used for cards that force people to tailor a deck specifically to counter them, not for cards that simply force people to stop having their decks being one-trick ponies.
Solitaire players: "You're what's wrong with this game!"
Anti-meta floodgate players: "No, you're what's wrong with this game!"
Decks with neither of those card types: "Why can't we just have fun anymore?"
People on the outside with no cards: "How is this game still here?"
Lol, there's 2 kind of people out there; yugioh players and people who didn't know this game was even alive at this point
It really did boil down to the
Immovable flood gates.
vs the unstoppable summons meta.
I'm the 3rd type of player. And man... I'm so happy I limited myself to DL. Too many people take that game seriously
I'm probably closest to 3. I want a nice back and forth. I don't want to almost fall asleep waiting for Mt turn only to find I can't play. I just wonder what they even get out of it when that happens.
Modern Yugioh in general is one of the most toxic games I have ever played. I love Yugioh but it’s so hard to play this game and actually have fun.
Meta is toxic. Floodgates save us. Theres nothing better than locking down a darn unfair Kashtira or Snake-Eye with Fossil Dyna
Exactly. The only reason they cry about it is because their super ultra meta decks isn't winning anymore and they can't play their 18 card 6 minute board combo. And the fact that this word "toxic" keeps getting thrown around says more about the people saying it than it does with the people using those cards. They always want to limit or ban something that's stopping their deck. It's dumb.
Floodgate is toxic as well. Modern day Yugioh is just at a point that no matter what happens the game isn’t fun anymore. It’s just a stew of toxicity. People complain that Floodgate isn’t fun to play against but neither is loosing on the second turn. Floodgate is a by product of Modern Yugiohs poor Meta. The game needs to slow down or it’ll forever be in this stalemate of Toxicity.
I’ve found ways to have fun by playing silly Alternate win cons and not really caring if I win or lose
This is why I play casual and custom formats lol
Hot take: generic Omni negates are floodgates. They stop your opponent from doing something but the owner chooses when
Floodgates wouldn’t be a problem if there were less generic boss monsters.
Yugioh went from a combat based style game to a OTK game where you play solitaire.
So many boards end up on the same generic field and different archetypes still end up on the same cards.
Make archetypal boss monsters and diversify the game, get rid of broken generic monsters and then ban floodgates, oh and Omni negates
The fact you look at both sides of the discussion makes me appreciate the video a lot more. Not just advocating one side, actually looking at both.
And honestly both side's complaints are easily boiled down to one thing in the end: "I can't play the game".
I wish we could return to the old days with battle phase reliant multi-turn back and forths, where 75% of modern day handtraps would barely do anything because it was just normal summon, attack (optional), set cards, pass.
But you're living in a dream world where that didn't happen outside of kitchen table yugioh, it's always been like this from yatalock onward - the community.
1999 Exodia FTK was tier 0.
OCG also had many OTK and FTK decks and many lockdowns.
There was no such thing as kitchen or playground ygo being the main thing
@@MerlinCross13 Okay, please give me a tutorial for a Yata Lock in turn 1 with GOAT cards.
NGL Goat format isn’t very intuitive from a game design perspective. I don’t like the way the game is now sure. But normal summon set 1 just isn’t it.
yugioh peaked in the middle of the XYZ era having the best of both modern and classic it just needed not to get ahead of itself and corporate greed needed to be put in check.
I do this with my Black Rose & Red Eyes in Duel Links. I have cards that bounce monsters back to the hand or have negates ready, but I simply hold off and let my opponent pull their combo. Of course the wise competitive players may say that's dumb to make them even play cause they could either break my board or pull off their Boss Monster with a nasty effect. But that's what I'm aiming for. A great duel. Sure I'll use my effects if I feel I'm in danger, but I'm not keen on cheesey wins.
I remember a duel I had as Yusei vs. Jaden in Duel Links, I had 2 Synchros out & Jaden had 3 fusions. This was before Link Monsters so there was no extra monster zone. I had 2 sets, he had 1. Those duels are what I enjoy, the battle, the chains, and see who still standing after the dust settles.
For me, the worst thing is the seemingly 10min game of solitaire my opponents play every opening round.
So true.
"Why don't we bring lesser decks up..."
Because that is how we powercreep into more degeneracy. You bring the meta down, so the game can be slowed down. I don't have fun doing 15 card combos to end in 3 omninegates. I would much rather have each player play slower decks.
And as you mention, a big problem is just the amount of negates available or "needed" in the game right now. I can't play a lesser deck if I just get negated and my turn is over. It is just as bad as a floodgate.
If you need to run shit like MaxxC or Ash Blossom the game isn't working.
Just look at yubel. Yubel used to be shit but after support became a top tier strategy and people hate it. So it’s like no matter what you do yugioh players will just cry about something else.
@@unsungangel7269 the problem is the game is highly unbalanced and has been for years. Magic and Pokemon don't struggle like Yu-Gi-Oh does
Then don't do 15 card combos. Js. Or take 5 minutes to set a board.
@@unsungangel7269 exactly. Learn the game. Play the game. Be ok with not winning all the time. Have fun with it. And be smarter than the average meta player.
I'd much prefer playing against Floodgates if they also have to grind out the game. The floodgates i can't stand are when they set up a huge board and then floodgate me.
Then the problem isn't the floodgate, it is the huge board you can set in a singular turn.
@@N12015No the problem is that they can set up their board then floodgate you taking away your options to out their board
Plus, what makes it even worse if I'm somehow able to out their entire board it is no point they can easily recycle all the necessary cards just to set up the same board again.
Flood gate that punishes both players should be the only thing allowed for sure.
@@HawaiianForgeStudios Problem with that is, they can 1. design their deck around that particular floodgate and you still lose 2. they can play most of them after their turn.
I understand floodgate players, nobody has to play against a 10 minute first turn combo but the concept of powerful and easy to play floodgates is absurd in any other card game.
No. In fact they can save it.
Without floodgates it's just
"I'm going to waste ten minutes of your time making you unable to stop me"
With floodgates it's "let's have an actual interactive game"
The short awnser is that they are a necessary evil. Just like kaijus.
Im an Umi control player myself and people complain SO much...even if they play Snake eyes, Sync spam, Yubel etc and ask me why.
Im about to get really cheesy and bordering on preachy now but bare with me. I tell them something like this.
You can literally just drop a kaiju on me and win.
Meanwhile. You would have spent 10 minutes setting up more negates than the entire Solem series. And im the toxic one for using one floodgate card? The game at large and you specifically made me necessary. Im the monster you and the meta created. You could play something else. The game could not be about omni negates. But here we are.
Im obviously not innocent in this. But when I'm being called toxic by a litteral bird brain player with more floodgates in deck than I have fingers. Something isn´t right on a deeper level.
So true man, I fell you.
I will never forget when I used Witchcrafter Draping to bounce Mystic Mine back to my opponent's hand over and over, and after I won the duel, my opponent flamed me for "relying on a single spell card"
I've never had a problem with floodgates. Its when monsters started to come immune to card effects in addition to a bs paragraph of effects is when I dipped out. A monster shouldn't inherently come with card effect immunity and the means that bestows such an effect shouldn't have built in protection either. Any card that says "no, this is the bestest most powerfulest card ever and you cant do anything to it" completely kills the fun in any game, card or otherwise, in addition to wasting everyone's time building a 99 chain link and still continue going. Floodgates on their own can create a puzzle for you to deal with. Combining them can be crippling to face but I do agree there should be a substantial maintenance cost for them, or at least make it devastating to recover from the cost of activating it. The point of a card game is interacting with each other's cards and strategies and overcoming the bar placed, not having a board immune to anything the opponent might consider.
I love how the title doesn't have a question mark. He wasn't asking, he was stating.
I Forgot To Add it lol!
It’s cool man!
@@TGSAnimedidnt get rid of the exclamation mark tho TwT
Floodgates are required or hard 1 special summon per turn requirement
Change my mind
It actually does have exclamation marks and question marks. Not sure what you're on about.
I'm more of a casual yugioh player not really taking it seriously so when I was playing master duel for the first time this year it amazed me on how to me at least annoying some duels would go. I haven't dealt with a flood gate but I have dealt with a person doing 5 minutes of stuff on their turn 1 activating so many effects and summoning monsters and so on that when it got to my draw phase that he was still doing more effects, I just couldn't deal with it. I love yugioh when I was a kid but seeing decks that just make it so your opponent can't even play the game or that you do 7 minutes of stuff before their turn even starts is just sad and annoying to me. Love the content as it has gotten me back into the card game
This is really why some floodgates are necessary though lol. Only reason i play them is to stop these people from spending 30 mins on a turn.
Unlimited special summoning is the problem, flood gates exist to stop your 86 step 6 hour combo.
But no one wants to talk about that, everyone just complains about flood gates.
True words.
That's about it right there, if we want this crap to actually stop then there should be a hardline limit on Special Summons from your draw phase to your next draw phase. Imagine if there was a limit of five Special Summons for your turn (and during your opponent's turn which is a concept that really irks me) that would stop this Solitaire crap in its tracks.
Floodgates don't solve that problem at all. Combo decks just use them too like snake eye playing skill drain and other floodgates
Special summoning is just way too easy nowadays. It used to be that the game was largely dictated by normal summoning with special summons being reserved for a big play that either took set up or came at a large cost.
Some floodgates are toxic, but I still have more of a problem with "one card starters that plus on everything, setting up multiple negates, with recursion even IF you break through them" decks.
Yup 100% agree that the problem with the game to mand over power decks that had 12 or more one card starters cards
The problems are the negates really, remove negates and it's all good. Then make sure monsters float, stop attacks, etc, AND give you drawing power when a condition is met(actual drawing, not search deck).
what's toxic is Konami's inability to manage a banlist without orientation supporting their products, exclusively focusing on future products.
That's how I feel about every deck that summons 35 monsters then have 7 negates and 3 handtraps
Which deck is that
@stefanokic406 feels like any top deck does this lol ends with a board of like 4 negates plus full hands with hand traps
@@DetroitsReaper none of the decks do that unless its like shs and nobody plays that
@@stefanokic406 what deck are you playing? And what is your end supposed board look like if you go uninterrupted?
@@stefanokic406 A lot of decks have done this for years though? What game are you playing? GOAT? We're talking modern YGO
Nah, if my oponent will try spamming 6+ omni-negates then I will floodgate the fug out of his entire deck with no remorse
I like it when they make new support for older archtypes or even make very old vanilla monsters into a new archtype (Memento for example) but sometimes Konami makes decisions that create an underwhelming experience. I really like that Ancient Gears got new support and the new cards are pretty fun but a few still have to include not being able to set cards if you activate a specific effect and some still can't be special summoned. The Transcendosaurus archtype is a really cool idea and I love when new Dinosaur cards are added but their effects aren't super unique and have a very specific requirement if you want to use their effects to revive them.
13:30. I think the reason is that some decks revolving around older Archetypes just cannot keep up with the power and speed of higher-tier decks. Yes, you have Konami rolling out legacy support for older decks and archetypes but sometimes that just isn't enough to close the gap, not to mention some Archetypes rarely get any legacy support because they don't have nostalgia behind them. Floodgates the only reliable way to even the playing field.
Floodgates are hated but necessary to keep OP cards from running crazy
Nah you won’t say that once someone goes full combos summoning 9 different
times but you have chance if it weren’t for the fact they ended on a stupid dinosaur fossil with 1200atk after going special summon turbo as much as they want previously.
Surprised I only just learned the meaning of Floodgate. I always just called it "Solitaire" or "Dramatic Coin Flip".
Few things more aggravating than aggreeing to sit down and PLAY the card game. We flip the coin to decide turn order, they win the flip and go first, I sit and watch them play their entire deck like a game of Solitaire, then they say "Ok, so now I've set my board the same way I always do like clockwork, I have two digits worth of negates, you play nothing I win... wanna flip a coin again?"
It’s so miserable on Duel Links when I’m waiting 5+ minutes for their opening hand. Like holy shit can we play the game?
What deck takes more than 5 minutes ?
People complain about floodgates not realizing that they try to keep the game balanced.
Wait what? Just based on what was said around 12 Minutes in.
You say the solution to wanting to play an older/non-meta deck is to abandon it and play meta. Vs. The solution to floodgates being draw the out or scoop.
The way you talk about it Floodgates are worse, but I mean come on. One of those is making me draw a removal card, the other is telling me to drop what i'm playing entirely and use an archetype or playstyle I wouldn't enjoy. Not saying they don't both blow. I will say I've never been as frustrated by a Skill Drain as I have Omni-negate boards.
EDIT: You say that nerfing decks to the level of older/non-meta decks isn't the solution. Elevating decks is... But isn't a common complaint about modern Yugioh it's speed?Wouldn't nerfing decks return the game to a more back and forth slower paced exchange? Look I'd just vote for whatever has turns not take 3-10 minutes, personally.
12:51 As a Dinomorphia player, I'm happy to see Rexterm isn't here.
Granted, if you put Tyrant Tirade on this, Rexterm would need to be one tier below, as Tyrant Tirade also stops hand effects of monsters from activating, which Rexterm doesn't do as it only affects the field, and Tirade is a blanket floodgate, Rexterm only affects monsters with attack equal or higher than the LP of its controller.
Only upsides in comparison between the two is Rexterm has attack manipulation, making it good against people that don't commonly engage or have ever fought Dinomorphia, and Rexterm only affects the opponent.
I'd have to disagree with Rexterm to one, as he's actually too easy to deal with. If the archetype had a proper way to protect it rather than just hoping you have Sonic and a spare Dinomorphia monster, or Intact, him going to 1 would be fine, but it lacks this. Then you have the fact his destruction effect doesn't work if he's sent somewhere, making it, again, too easy to handle for a lot of decks.
Dinomorphia also has serious issues against certain archetypes, like Yubel and Sky Striker.
Here's my take on floodgates: they're a necessary evil to keep combo decks in check, just like handtraps. They're only real a problem when the combo decks can search them as part of their end board (Such as sending it to GY with a card like Beatrice and using another effect to set on the field) or if they're Mystic Mine.
My only gripe is that there's too many floodgates in MD for a bo1 and there's less outs to floodgates in the TCG
@@jo-neallewis6385 to be fair there's not very many outs to a board full of monster omni negates, except for dark ruler no more, which is basically a one turn floodgate lol
@anthonym840 DRNM, droplet, sphere mode (LG), ultimate slayer and out playing. Also handtraps before it gets to that point. Vs harpies at 1, LS at 2 and evenly
@@jo-neallewis6385 yeah i use most of those in spliceable decks too. Like i actually play weird stuff like royal poker knights which i find works well with droplet, and divine providence. I also played sphere mod in that deck too lol but i find Grand horn of heaven just devistates most multi play decks. But sometimes ur out of luck in that ur opponent somehow still has the resources to go off of something. So i usually result to dark ruler no more, niburu, laval golem, or sphere mod. But i do want to emphasize that i hate that any of it is necessary to begin with, as it just tales awsy any pure deck run ideas. Only reason i add any of those cards is if a main pure deck strategy can benifit off of it being in the deck somehow. Like i built a deck centered around lord of the red, so i added alpt of hand traps that he can quick effect off of if my opponent wont do it.
In general concept no,
In execution kind of
Imo the easiest way to fix it is make them all like Cold wave, only make them ALL spells(or VERY low stat monsters), and they must be the first card activated during your turn so at *all* points *both* players are playing under it
I think it's perfectly fair to have a deck built around a floodgate because you're giving up other options to do so
The one of the main problem with the game now is meta decks absolutely breaking the cards meant to raise up weaker decks in a neverending arms race of powercreep because Konami isn't adding enough restrictions to keep cards in their intended unbroken lane
Imo to "fix" a good part of the game to start with would be to limit negation effects to exclusively trap cards and limit floodgates to continuous spells
Ban everything else and give it the appropriate replacement version
13:51 because it's not possible anymore as stated above
Combo decks in general aren't a problem it's what the Combos lead to remove all the negateseon monsters and sure they can fill the board but they shouldn't have any interaction in exchange as their benefit
The sad truth is that nearly everything in YuGiOh! has become toxic. The constant power creep is so insane that fair/balanced cards just do not get played, because they are simply considered "bad".
In the end do all successful decks try to keep the opponent from playing. Whether that's through floodgates, (omni-)negate boards, one card combos to be paired with 3+ hand traps, a simple OTK, Kashtira with their zone locking or even Tearlament which starts a new 5 minute chain every time you dare activate an effect during your own turn (and the latter two aren't even considered meta-relevant, despite how insane their effects sound). With YuGiOh! having no resource system, it needs an incredibly careful approach to balancing - which gets immediately thrown out of the window because product management trumps game management.
I really enjoy breaking boards or baiting the opponent's negate. What I don't enjoy is needing to play the one or two current meta-decks which are the only ones able to play through the other meta decks' slew of negates and protections. Which then also need cards costing hundreds of dollars.
I feel like Duel links' limited list system can solve this issue, by applying a different ype of limit, allowing these cards to still be playable, but you are limited to choosing which one you are able to play.
Normally I disagree with bringing decks and strategies down to a lower level, but in the case of Yugioh, I disagree.
The game is now a coin toss of combo for the biggest thing turn one and hope your opponent can't stop you, not the careful and strategic game that I grew up watching.
Things that are bad:
- Floodgates
- Hand traps
- Pendulums
I just want longer duels again… duels rarely last longer than 3 turns now…
How else are we going to stop our opponent from spending 10 minutes in a single turn setting up a board of never ending negates?😅
By playing similar power levels of decks with some handtraps for interaction if you lose the coin toss, or a board breaker like forbidden droplet
@@Rossco1010 Yeah and we can just play coin toss to decide a winner then. It would waste a lot less time.
@@Treasure_hunter_21 I literally described what you play in your deck for if you lose the coin toss that still allows you to play in modern yugioh. Floodgates actually do it 10x worse because then if you lose the coin toss you actually just lose because they’ve already setup on you. If I have a setup red dragon archfiend board and you set 2, and normal summon pachy Dyna I’ve already won because I won the coin toss. But if you played a deck with competent engine and a board breaker to deal with a boss monster of mine, now we have an actual duel that plays out and can take a few turns.
@@Rossco1010 Competent engine? Not every one wants to emrace meta slavery. ANd they arent budget friendly in the slightest. Both things are equally bad if going second. The diffrence is: in one case your opponent setups like 1-2 min, while in the other 10+ min. And if you draw backrow removal you at least can try to remove floodgates. Thats aint gonna work against full omni negate board.
@@Treasure_hunter_21 what are you talking about? “Meta slave” dude I just talked about red dragon archfiend an anime deck that got a cheap structure deck a year ago. The decks both not big meta nor expensive. So your entire argument went out the door immediately. Learn modern yugioh if you’re going to critique it like that. Also omni negates are not common as endboard pieces. We aren’t in 2021 anymore, boards don’t end on 5 omni negates, they end on maybe 1 for evenly matched and lots of other interactions like pops. People complaining about never ending negates haven’t played since 2021 (2022 for master duel) where that design of gameplay has been deliberately toned down. They even banned cards like Appolousa and Baronne in the tcg.
Back in the day I could make an argument why flood gates might be the worst thing in Yugioh but even then there was quite a bit of interaction between players, nowadays I welcome floodgates, it's the only time when games have some back and forth, for many years competitive Yugioh is a game of solitary lasting 5-10 min.
I used Skill Drain early in Master Duel's life because it was my only defence against more powerful one card combo decks. I'm afraid floodgates sometimes are a necessity to actually play.
U right man.
23:18 I figured it was because they are freezing the opponent. Sealing them from making any moves. To go with there archetype.
Floodgates ruin Yugioh yes, but do you know what else ruins Yugioh? How fast the entire game has gotten. In my opinion, the game feels WAY too fast. Stuff happens way too quickly and thus it doesn't feel like you're playing a game, you're not interacting with your opponent. And for any of you who say "Oh just play GOAT format", I shouldn't have to be forced to play a different format just to play a slower, more interactive game. That's why I've moved on from Yugioh [I still support you TGS because these anime duels and analyses into different aspects into this game is fun to watch] to Magic the Gathering, its given me that slow-paced gameplay that I've been wanting.
I think it's good that Yugioh and MtG play very differently. This avoids a too big overlap in target audience.
It is more of a case if "you can not have two things", you can get interactive back and forth games if, and a vey big IF, both decks are on the same level, a.k.a Meta vs Meta, the issue of being unable to play arises when you also want to play a beloved themed deck be it something old or something new but not good enougth , so you either play something that is not your favorite and get an interactive, intense game, or you play what you like to play and is not competitive and just do not get to play at all. ( If you so happen to genuinely like a meta deck, well those are exceptions and may they be happy playing their decks)
@@dudono1744why the fuck is that a good thing? Why wouldnt we want an overlap
@@TeenPerspektiva So more people can enjoy a game, also what's the point of 2 games having the same target audience ?
@PBJA89-w8rah yes. Flipping one and stopping your opponent from accessing a part of the game is fun. An end board of a bunch negates isn’t fun either but don’t act like that’s the reason floodgates are banned
I think the real issue is generic summoning conditions... no boss monster is locked into its deck like the old ones. Quasar, Blazar, calamity, etc. are all generic and can be splashed into ANYA synchro deck...
Monsters need to be locked into their archetypes, and a lot of this can and will stop outside of the old floodgates.
If you have to pay reasonator/ree dragon will you want to play calamity?? Probably not
This is why i quit EVERYTHING is splashable. To a degree, especially the extra deck, thats where yugioh went wrong and needs to clean up..
And to konami's credit
They are trying......after 25 or so years of the game
Yeah, only NOW are they banning apo, barrone, savage but yeah...i see your point
Isn’t that why Konami, at first, made the Extra Monster Zones and Link Monsters to limit how many Extra Deck monsters could be played?
@@Gameact3 yeah but then had to do the revisions because some decks jist could not play under it so now it only fucks over pedulums
@@Gameact3 .......and how many ftks were made then?
Quasar/Blazar are technically generic, but in practice you need to build around them (if you ignore crimson dragon)
i love the floor gate it feels like a f you to people who likes to one summon millions of monsters with monster effects or spell effects it feels like im playing the regular yugioh card game again
This
Ban 90% of generic negate cards that aren't counter traps while you're at it.
ban all solve
They already did that, there aren't that many generic negates to begin with now...
Only on the TCG
Floodgates were always justice. Its the combo deck players that insisted on playing solitaire instead of Duel Monsters that are the problem. Shame Konami decided to cater to them. There used to be a time where rogue decks and old archtypes were able to compete against meta decks thanks to floodgates.
I think something people just need internalized at this point is that yu-gi-oh, at its core now, is all about making sure your opponent can't play. Doesn't matter how you get there, that's just the name of the game though
The sad truth..
The game has gotten too fast and too consistent to let the other guy get a damn move off. That's why the best opening hand is usually 1 15 step combo starter that does everything you ever want to get your entire board off the ground. And 4 handtraps.
Yeah, I’ve made a blue-eyes deck with some meta cards to prevent playing. Two of each of these, Ash, imperm, called by, ghost ogre, effect veil.
I run drowning, quaking and storming mirror forces, magical cylinders and magic cylinder.
It’s real heavy on the stun/floodgate, that’s part of the reason I built a bare bones 40 card Blue-Eyes tribe deck, it’s a little more fun than the Meta deck. My modern-meta Blue-Eyes is a little too unfun from an interaction point for my opponents. Usually by the second ash, or first called by they quit.
Even after seeing the actual archetype and thinking they have a chance. Which, arguably in certain cases, they do. They don’t call it “Brick Eyes” for nothing.
I like watching DuelLogs Failed Archetypes and 9 times out of 10 the reason a Deck is featured there is "It's too slow," "Can't set up a board," "Can't play through disruption," or "Doesn't let you interact with your opponents board/disrupt their plays."
The other 1 time being When/If or a Lack of a Boss/Theme.
But damn. If I can't win without just boxing my opponent out of the game, then I'm not interested.
@@Ty17Vi don't watch clickbait. He label 90% of decks as that because "it doesnt top in current year"
if floodgates are toxic, so are turn 1 endboards with like 43 negates etc... Also, if you play MD best of 1 and dont play counters to it, because you'll lose consistency in your deck - It's on you. Maybe people should start to build decks more all-around to be able to deal with any situation instead of "i either combo 25 cards in turn 1 or i'll lose to floodgates"
So I was thinking about similar stuff. So let me present you my fixes for YGO (remember this is similar to the video a general hit so some decks needs to be adjusted):
1. Ban generic floodgates, Archetypal at one (same as the video).
2. Ban generic draws and bosses (self explanatory Barone was a mistake and so were the Pot retrains).
3. Limit all Bossmonsters (here the first exception becomes apparent as decks like Salad would just die when you do this).
4. Ban „one card“ bridges (so ban Closed Heaven is banned, Yama is banned, but Exciton Knight are still legal. Basically generic archetypal links that are too easy to summon but also cards like Banshee that get you 1 card bridges like Corridor or Flag, in which case its a case by case scenario).
5. Limit HT to be only be activatable if you control no monsters.
6. Ban generic OTK tools (like Accesscode or Topologic Zeroborus).
Sure some decks would be nerfed to oblivion (like Unchained [Yama and Tourguide banned, any Soul card limited, SP banned Unicorn limited also just one Caesar and no Zeus]).
However we then could start to think about how to either balance out those banned cards (like requiring Yama an Unchained card). But also we can see how decks adapt to these changes. Like in YGO there are so many little synergies that can be substituted in (like Bystial Runick or Branded Tear but also more obscure stuff like Bird up or Labrynth D/D Unchained).
YGO would become kinda like finding the perfect synergies to squeeze out the potential of any deck.
Also it would allow a cardtype to finally see play that couldn’t see play before and thats the recyclers.
Lab Setup for example or other cards similar to it would see play.
So the game would also revolve around setting up your engines in such a way that you recycle one of them while the other keeps you alive.
Btw all I mentioned would still leave a lot of decks in a too powerful position (like Lab would still have Daruma and Rollback as well as Arias. They would just loose 1 Angel 1 Lady and if you really push it you could ban Ariane; similarly Ritual beast would just loose Shifter, but they wont have to worry about droll and they would loose Banshee into Flag into Protos but they still could go into a Gryphon next turn. They also loose Apo, SP and IP but their main engine is basically untouched). So yeah this isn’t perfect but a solid start.
Thanks for reading this text wall.
Do you have questions?
Ideas?
Leave a comment down below and Im happy to elaborate/discuss with you.
Have a nice day
AEther
I have complaints.
Yama is fine, Unchained is perfectly balanced deck that takes skill to pilot. Ban broken Yubel support instead if you don't want Fiend Link to be a thing, it literally has contact fusion from grave.
@@kindlingking my man. I love Yama. I love Fiendlink. But the fact that Yubel is better at building an Unchained board than Unchained itself is a problem. And nothing you do to Yubel changes that except killing the deck outright.
Yama being an Unchained soul of everything while being generic for any Fiend deck is a problem.
Because 1 card bridges (aka most generic Link 2s are a problem). So either ban Yama or Errata it to require an Unchained card.
And trust me if you think Unchained would die when these ideas become the norm you would be surprised how slaughtered the Meta would be (at least for the moment).
Because there are still many ways to bridge between archetypes (like Crystal beast allows you even under the rules I have here to end on a mix of Springans, Branded, Tri-brigade and Therion).
Also why I said that this isn’t a perfect ban list is because of a few over tuned cards. For example Alba Zoa would need to get banned (or most of the generic Ritual enablers like Archlight, Prepreap and Impcantations) because of the nature of the game. Similarly Kashtira basically has to die because there are a lot more one ofs Kash could simply banish forever (again they could be Errata to banish face up and Shangrie would only trigger from banishes from a Kash card).
We also should address the elephant in the room as I never once talked about Boardbreakers.
Most decks can’t defend against them and multiples are basically a guaranteed victory even when we ban most of the generic otk enablers.
So the heavy stuff like Superpoly and DRNM should probably be banned as they don’t allow counter play that is feasible for most decks to achieve.
To address finally your question:
Yubel loses 2 Phantoms what basically means that most of their combos and recycling just falls flat. They loose 2 Pain as it is an archetypal floodgate. They will loose Eternal Favorite because it is a bridge for Heros and its a bridge for Superpoly. They would basically loose access to the Fiendsmith cards except when they open Engraver. No Varudras and Apo leaves basically only Gryphon as an generic extra deck option for them. No accesscode or Zeroboros makes it hard for Yubel to find an OTK. And with Yama being booted out of the deck one way or another they would suddenly get competition from both Unchained and Lab.
On its own Yubel becomes a worse version of Mikanko or Tenpai.
They basically need Ariane to even compete (especially since Salvation and Ancient Fairy dragon as well as Terra forming and Set Rotation are banned similarly to Trivikama would be at 1 or banned). So there is no easy way to bridge via Fieldspells.
Hope you understand my reasoning better.
If you still have questions/suggestions I answer them with joy.
Have a nice day
AEther
A very interesting topic. As someone that isn't interested in meta or higher level duels I don't use floodgates but whenever I want to try the top tier ranks I'll add a couple of floodgates to slow down whatever is meta at the moment. I generally don't like floodgates that straight up counter 50% of the game because thats too oppresive.
If you spend 10 minutes trying to set-up a board to tell your opponent 'lol no', then how is that different than putting down one card to tell your opponent 'lol no' and saving us both time? You are supposed to negate and stop your opponent as part of the strategy, so I don't see how that is inherently a bad thing. Sure, some floodgates feel a bit more overpowered than others, but you can always get around those too. I say this as a Gravekeeper player, so I acknowledge I may be a bit biased.
The lingering floodgates (D barrier, D D Ground, EEVirus, searchable with staple (ex. TT Thrust, Trap Trick), or in archetype (Lady Lab, recyclable with Lovely Lab too), are wrong because either you deny them activation or bye . Against continuous floodgates however, in addition to denying them you can destroy them with an industrial amount of backrow removal.
I would Ban the entire Runick arcetype and ALL Floodgates regardless of Arctyple relations except "Mind Drain" to the Forbidden List and unlimit "Called by the Grave".
Card Effects are more effective and healthier as pulse reactions than being continuously applied. No Exceptions.
One recent major problem with floodgates is that a lot of new archetypes are designed to be able to turn floodgates on and off. Snake-Eye can send their floodgates for cost. Ryzeal can reattach Mereologic Aggregator (sent directly from Extra Deck to GY by their own in-archetype cards) as an Xyz Material and send it to turn off their floodgates during their own turn. Powersink Stone lets you do the "I play in your turn" thing that almost exclusively is done by newer, more powerful archetypes, and then it floodgates your opponent even harder than Skill Drain. In theory this is an interesting step of game design, in practice it's "strong decks get stronger."
The argument against "buff older decks" is mainly one of practicality. There are so many older decks that are "almost" competitive and it's easier to print a couple cards to lower the game's power level than it is to buff up every old deck. If you gave each deck a numeric power ranking of 0 to 100, it's easier to try and make decks into, say, the 60-70 range, focusing on buffing the decks that are most in need of it and not even needing to touch most of the decks that are already of middling power than it is to try and raise every single deck to a 90-100.
There's also that as the game speeds up it does ultimately cause a lot of decks to lose their identities and do more of the same thing. When the power level is really high you don't have the luxury of doing a lot of unique strategies that might be just slower. Say the Destiny Board deck, if you wanted it to be competitive it would need to amass its letters on the first turn, which at the end of the day would make it just a different flavor of FTK, as it stands with the field spell Destiny Board is stronger while not losing that gameplay style, but it isn't good against most meta decks.
Even extremely pushed archetypes can be waiting years for support, let alone someone whose favorite deck is unpopular. Having to constantly cycle between legacy support is tough, but trying to make the game be at a relatively lower power level allows older decks to compete without needing new support. If you say, "I want a format where Dream Mirror, Ghoti, Fire King and S-Force are all around the same power level" the easier thing to do would be to use Ghoti as your benchmark, buff up Dream Mirror a little, S-Force a lot, and nerf Fire King.
This is from someone who quit YuGiOh years ago, at the rise of LinkMonsters... But IMO what ruined YuGiOh for the majority of the casual players was search effects becoming dominant. Sure, of course it boosts consistency and you don't need to find a way to make the cards in your hands work... But I think that was the beauty of YuGiOh up to 2008 or so, you had to work with the cards in your hand with some very limited ways to get what you wanted to make your strategy work... Nowadays it is more about just working up plays over and over around the same cards that you have way too many ways to get to work.
You can see why Rush flat-out has none.
This is why we hand traps and floodgates that are more prominent now. Which balances it out.
For me its the unfairness of meta decks that have less to no locks or restriction, and high summoning flexibility Look at tear, snake eyes, fiendsmith. They just keep coming back! Fusion route blocked? Okey go to link, and let the snowball rolls again. Its just unfair when ash, nib, ghost, cant even reduce their endboard product
@@MrIsleNFair I do agree with that too, the meta decks, and honestly even rogue strategies just have way too many ''this that and those'' pre-set plays. I might be saying this without that much of an insight into modern yugioh, I did give it up, I only watch matches now, but every match has the same-ish strategy. Play this, get that, search that, send the grave, yada yada repeat. It's almost like duels are scripted now. You don't work around what your opponent has, you just do your own play and it is already premade to counter about anything possible.
@@linkaiser8709 That just about sums it up. Maybe not in a nutshell, some are a wee bit different, but it does a good job.
Another big issue I'm not seeing mentioned is the Extra Deck. The Extra Deck is a nightmare, going from being something to get your big bad boss out to just a deck you can nab whatever card from as long as you play a singular card that goes "ye just get whatever the hell you're running out"
It doesn't need search, it's very generalized, has loads of effects, and is absurdly cheap.
The game basically has 3 decks now, two of which you don't need to search (graveyard and extra) and one of which you just search without consequence.
Yugioh needs to balance its effects by having conditions be needed. For example Cyber Blader has cool effects that change depending on the amount of monsters your opponent controls. Having a condition contingent on whats on the field helps.
Feather duster may not have been as ubiquitous if Harpie Lady was needed to activate it.
How dare my broken game have something else that is broken but doesn't have 2 paragraphs of text
I personally dont mind Floodgates too much, but then again I was joyusly blessed with having a best friend who would almost always play some form of control or stun deck(Thunder Dragons and Salads back in their prime) while I sat there and struggles with my hero deck(back when the best play was Trinity OTK). So I just kinda got use to them.
there is no problem and reason why is the only show up in stun decks unless the format is ruled by 1-4 decks then they show up.
this is also why having them at 1 is dumb because having then at three in an open format meant if you wanted to use them they would be the only things in your side deck.
mystic mine is a great example the card absolutely sucks but because people hated it they started playing it to get it banned.
look at snake-eyes skill drain, summon limit, they just used to best available card even though they didn't need it there easily able to play through boards. summon limit was only played because the two choice floodgates were hit TCOBO and rivalry.
stun has played these cards for ages and people know how to counter a stun deck that right there proves they are fine.
to me as long as hand traps cards that auto win against lower tier decks exist then floodgates are a needed evil
Snake eyes use this 2 floodgates because 3 of his cards are bad card design effect, (send 1 or 2 cards you control to grave ...) is the problem. SE Ash, Oak and Sinful spoil. If they cant remove their floodgates with this stupido effect...
And Diabelstar Witch too.
@@desertline6272 that can be stopped to prevent the negation. however we will watch this space because if i'm right once azamina comes out and snake eyes is on top again they will not play skill drain but instead the next best flood at 3
I feel like part of the issue of people wanting to play fun nostalgic decks and the modern super speed of the game could be resolved with officially sanctioned formats. Like more than 15 people would play GOAT or Edison if they were an option on Master Duel. And then Konami could even make money by reprinting those old cards to support those formats for real life tournaments.
"Just be modern" is the worst advice to tell people who want to have fun
If youre trying to play competitive/semi competitive yugioh, it is the correct answer. If youre trying to just have fun with friends then its a whole different story
Stun is the opposite of fun
A deck mainly consusting of Floodgates is the Buster Blader archetypes. The "Buster Lock" is stopping them from using the extra deck, monsters can not activate effects, and all their monsters are stuck in Defence.
Interesting observation regarding the heroes floodgates. I didn't know it had so many.
At the very least 1 of 2 of them has been powercrept out. Dark angel is just bad to play now. Congrats, you stopped your opponent from using spells, at least until they take the free material you gave them for a link summon and use it.
Not sure how good Cosmo neos is. Seems bad, imo, being so reliant on getting neospacians to the field, but maybe I just don't know how good that archetype is now.
And the plasma is good, but needing 3 tributes and only having 1900 attack with no protection...he's kind of easy to get over. I play a heroes deck and half the time I can't even get him out because I'll only have 2 tributes on the field alongside my end board monsters.
Dark law, though, that I can understand people taking issue with. Super easy to get out, and locks off the gy. Devastating for some decks.
I feel similarly as a hero player. Dark law I would say is at least semi-understandable as it only has 2400, and nowadays it seems a lot of decks seem to have monsters that SS themselves from hand and have 2500ish.
Ran a bunch of duels in the duelist cup, WITHOUT going into dark law while going first, and just got obliterated on repeat, even through my full combo. I started next duel with dark law, and FINALLY started to see some slow down. Almost feels like a requirement for heroes
"Floodgates can stop people from spamming generic omni-negates boards"
So, we are basically curing fever by breaking people's legs..
Do people really prefer sitting there waiting 20 minutes for your opponent to combo off and build a board that prevents you from playing compared to an opponent that just goes set 5 pass?
People are stu p d sheep, you right man.
I really like the idea of designing floodgates to impact both players in different but significant ways
I think that omni negates are even more toxic than floodgates. You can play around floodgates way easier if you are willing to hit the consistency of your deck a little than having something that essentially goes "oh you want to use this? Nah mate one of my 70 negates say no try again in the next duel".
Honestly omni-negates and one card starters need to go away if floodgates are to go. We can't just have every deck just go "I barf my entire deck in one turn now deal with it!"
Well you can say the same shit qbout omnis. Run dark ruler or droplets lol just make your deck less consistent. And no omnis are not worse because they are one for one trade floodgates are everything for one trade. Omnis can be god awfull to play againts if there is a critical mass of them but there isnt right now
@@stefanokic406 if wasn't for deck that put alot os monster negates, dark ruler would probably never existed
@@MateusSoar if it wasnt for degenarate backrow twin twister would not exist right. Or Lightning storm
@@MateusSoarlet’s not go chicken or egg here. End board negates are a problem but I’ll take that off floodgates. I blame one card combos for that honestly
"You can play around floodgates way easier if you are willing to hit the consistency of your deck"
Yeah, that sounds good in theory but is practically impossible haha
"Super Starslayer TY-PHON - Sky Crisis" is also a popular card that have floodgate effects, but banning it kinda defeats the whole reason of its existence against "Divine Arsenal AA-ZEUS - Sky Thunder"
The whole game personally feels like you get floodgated at all times... you just have to wait for your opponent to play 20 cards for half an hour before we get there... if you have a floodgate it just expedited the 20 activations wait...
Kinda
I believe there is at least different levels of severity when it comes to Floodgate effects that can at least stay in the game.
There is a reason why Kashtira Ariseheart is banned, while Virtual World Kyubi is not.
Thanks for the upload! Appreciate it!
I remember getting a friend of mine into Yugioh
They built a pretty good dark magician deck, won a couple times against me
...then i busted out Traptrixs and they were *baffled* lmao
I don’t play yugioh anymore but I think it’s way pass fixing this issue. Floodgates are needed against the endless torrent of SS that the game encourages now. If you just keep the floodgates, that’s toxic. If you just keep the SS gameplay, that’s toxic too. Konami would have to ban a majority of cards from the last decade at this point.
But they won't if anything they probably might endorse it later like Konami is just on $$$ Mode at this point the only way to have them know you dislike their Decisions is to just NOT PAY vote with your Wallet not with your Fanservices.
@@ninjabros6282 i haven't played for quite a while. maybe close to a decade? not sure. but once SS and negates started becoming extremely prevalent, i stopped playing at all.
@@ninjaman0003 Which is basically during MR3.
Thing is that floodgates don’t fix this problem, they’re only useful going first, minus the few hand trap variants. They also result in boring games where the opponent literally can’t do anything, unless they luck into the right card. Hand traps deal with this problem better as it generates interaction between players, though even they’re struggling to hold back the power creep
@@waylander9265 hand traps weren't nearly as strong as before i quit. so i can't even pretend to speak about hand traps being a useful or not against the SS heavy style.
If LP burn floodgates are floodgates, then any monster I can't swing over is a floodgate to me being able to attack and win.
Floodgates are hated by combo players, but combo players are just floodgate players with extra steps, as neither let you play the game when done optimally
So what you are saying combo takes at least more effort and more skill?
@@dannyboers4704 more effort? yeah, sure. more skill? more skill? not really, the end result is the same; your opponent can't play the game. combo players just get upset because floodgates are cheaper to play, so they take the "holier than thou" attitude because they spent more money
@@nuttybuddy7928 not really in master duel every deck is basically free and there many people are still complaining about floodgates
@@dannyboers4704 this has been a complaint long before Master Duel was a thing. People have been complaining about Skill Drain ever since it came out in 2013, getting Yata locked is technically getting floodgated, people have complained about not being allowed to play the game for decades now. The difference between floodgate players and combo players is about 10-15 minutes of watching your opponent play solitaire. The metagame has always been toxic, I just get amused when people try to take a “I’m better than you” attitude when they’re doing the same thing they’re complaining about.
@@nuttybuddy7928 It does take more skill. Playing around or through handtraps takes at least some game knowledge and practice. Activating floodgates doesn't
I feel like yugioh should have a policy where before every tournament like a week before or so, there should be a vote on a archetype to ban, where players can select up to 3 archetypes and the 3 archetypes with the most votes are not allowed to be played in the tournament, i think this would make tournament play much more diverse with players being different decks instead of the same deck every time.
"Flood gates are bad because you can't stop them unless you have the response in hand to counter them. However, I like having high speed counters and responses in my deck to counter my opponents cards: they could stop me if they just have the response to my cards in their hand." Your argument sounds like, to me, "your [oppressive] fun isn't fun unless it's my kind of [oppressive] fun."
Exactly. Straight Up "Rules for Thee, Not for Me"
I agree with you as well. Yu-Gi-Oh was far more fun when It was a back and forth tug-of-war kind of thing. Where the next card could be your last, and my some miracle heart of the cards luck or math and probability being in your side you draw the perfect one card that can save you.
For example I'll go waaaaay back and set this up. Your opponent has destiny board with I-N-A on board and they end turn. You have 30 of 40 cards left in your deck and only 1 of them is mystical space typhoon, dust tornado, heavy storm, giant trunade etc etc etc. if you draw it you have a chance to play and win if not opponent wins next turn.
The tension and excitement was what made Yu-Gi-Oh so much fun.
Now it's 99% sit and watch opponent on turn 1 set things up so you have a mathematical 0% chance of winning.
@@pinkiepiebiggestfan6099Yugioh was never really that.
You just didn't play meta when you were a kid
Meta back then was hand ripping.
Good luck winning when on turn 1 your opponent has already ripped 2 or 3 cards out of your hand
They need very specific hands to do what your describing. Having seen old top tier decks, they still averaged 5 to 15 turns. Yes the game can end in the old days within 2 to 3 turns but even back then it was far from standard and literal factorials more inconsistent. Yu-Gi-Oh has optimized the fun out of itself and is a very common problem for choice heavy games that promote efficiency and synergy.
@@PlayWithThatBlackGuy yeah I did on occasion play the meta. I played the Yugi dark magician, I played the kaiba blue eyes, I played the joey red eyes. I also on occasion would play so called rouge decks like burn, mill, destiny board, exodia, and later god card decks personal fav was slifer.
The back and forth I was speaking of was allowed and usually the case for the first 4-6 turns of the duel. Not always there were times by my turn 3 I had no real chance of winning due to cards opponent played and that was fine. The back and forth aspect was enabled by the fact that it took 2-4 turns to get your boss monster out, your ideal spell/trap set-up ready, your game controlling monster effects on the field. When I was spending 2-4 turns setting things up, you my opponent had 2-4 turns to either stop or delay what I was trying to do long enough to get your strategy established. You had those turns to set up your strategy to defeat me. Maybe I had a counter on field like a mirror force or torrential tribute or something else to counter your play or maybe I didn't.
Now Yu-Gi-Oh isn't about that strategy, that mental game of chess to counter your opponent. No modern Yu-Gi-Oh is all about winning on turn one, making sure your opponent cannot make any moves or plays, to turn what could take 5-20 or do minutes to win into winning within the first 30 seconds of a duel.
I haven't played yugioh in many years but some of my favorite cards ever were Level limit area-B, ground collapse etc. Every mono attribute deck i played had gozen match and statues. I was a mono light fairy player for too long ...and loved it. So much odd jank for control.
Gotta say after watching the entire video still hope for an enjoyable game: dark door, nightmare steel cage,swords of concealing dark, tornado wall, (does sanctuary in the sky count?) there is also the weird trap that locks 2 spell trap zones it has a stack of packages on it Xiao something or other...(Yes this is all from memory...I didn't get to play much apparently people don't like not playing)
DNA surgery was only fun with insect barrier (but insect barrier wasn't hit either)
I think every criticism you can lobby at floodgates you can also use against decks that set up boards with multiple omni-negates. As such I don't really understand why the popular opinion is "floodgates, bad! Mass negation, good", they both accomplish the same thing (stopping you're opponents from playing the game).
I do agree with point that older/rogue decks should be receiving support to raise them up rather than using tools to bring more modern/better decks down. However it must be said that philosophy is dependent on Konomi releasing support for them and given the vast numbers of older decks to support it's just not feasible to expect that EVERY deck will receive support. With that in mind; if a particular floodgate can help an under-supported archetype compete against whichever behemoths are dominating the meta at that particular point in time, that helps take away the onus to support an archetype from konami and places it in the hand of the player. And frankly, being able to pilot an older archetype to victory consistently shows good deck building skill
Also supporting and increasing the power of all archetypes leads to more powercreep
> "Archetypal floodgates"
> Mentions Winda and Necrovalley which get played outside of their archetype more than inside them
Skill Drain should be Unlimited.
We’re doing this currently in our discord format. It is sort of like a hydra, you cut one head off they grow back 2 more.
We banned skill drain, tcboo, gozen, anti spell, rivalry, all barrier statues, dyna, kristya, fiends, jowgen etc etc
Players pivot to necrovalley, mistake, garbage like aurora paragon lol
But it isn’t nearly as bad as the insane floods so ultimately it is possible to hit them but not ban them all and have a fun game
I just wish they were more balanced especially skill drain to make you pay 1500 each rune to keep it on field. One and done basically makes it unstoppable for trap decks or stall decks. This way the time limit is fair.
i hate skill drain. back in 2008, my buddy running it and has gigantes
Run removal.
Skill Drain decks are not good and most control decks are too fair. This is a falicy
@@soukenmarufwt5224 they negate your removal. What then?
It honestly should have an effect that says you must pay 1000 LP during each standby phase or end phase, or otherwise, you destroy the end.
Fair cards don't win. Quite coping
The only way to circumvent this is a relaunch with redesigned rules, OR new arbitrary rules in place. The game designers are in a corner with trying to design around this games historically messy resource system.
And they will NEVER just do some crazy soft relaunch, or mass ban cards, or anything like that, because that messes with the business model. You have to be careful with rending too many cards unplayable at once when so much money is spent to build ones collection in the first place.
Omni-Negate/Negate Boards are floodgates.
They prevent you from playing the game... Don't they?
"Well if you went 1st and the Negate board is yours who cares if the opponent does not get to play. They can just surrender and play another game or play a "bet(meta)ter deck."
But when your opponent summons Dyna or activates Skill Drain... or Rexterm for me :D...
Oh.. Floodgates make the YGO unplayable? No. Keep that same energy. Surrender and go play another match.
OR... Ra forbid, you learn to play around these cards.
Edit:
I hope you keep the same energy that you've displayed here in your Omni-Negate video.
@@BlinkSh0t hand traps a literal scourge. And Ild feel different if they were used as part of your archetype BUT NO, you use them freelance to stop me from playing as well and waaayyyy more toxic you ask me. That and Kashitas
I completely agree. Omni negative boards make the game near unplayable for most decks. Also hand traps need to be banned. Ash blossom ghost ogre Maxx C all of em. Yugioh as a game needs to slow down to become fun again. Like what's the point of playing if your opponent is going to bring out this unbreakable board turn 1 and then you can't play the game? What happened to the longer drawn out duels of epic proportions where good deck building and strategies reign supreme, other than your opponent saying "You can't play the game"
So what do yall want? To play freely without interruption? Set up that "floodgatey board" without consequence?
I'll admit, that sounds awesome but we'll end up in a similar state to where we are now.
Hand Traps offer that Interactivity.
Ash hinders your one card starters.
Maxx C deters you from giving the opponent an advantage. Mind you, I don't remember which, if it's OCG or TCG, Maxx C isn't even hated from what I heard.
I often wondered "What if YGO had Chess levels of Interaction from turn 1, what kind of game would it be?"
Hand Traps offer that..... to varying extents. It may not be a great solution, given the replies, but it is one.
@@BlinkSh0tI dunno, go back to Edison/post Edison. Turns go back and forth, there are some hand traps but not many, back row is strong and decks build up to wins instead of just ejaculating onto the field turn 1
More than floodgates, the biggest problem with Master Duel is the many, many, many players that what feels like 10 minutes per turn just to end with a board that doesn't let you play (be it because they're new and just copied the deck or because they're just evil like that).
I've never been as frustrated as seeing a person vomit half their deck on turn one and end with like 3 negates on board + 3 hand traps.
i rather deal with floodgates than omni negates..
Yes absolutely as long as I can normal summon and attack I'm okay. If I can't even do that I'm annoyed and feel like I wasted time letting them take 10 minutes setting up! Despite there only being 5 on the clock!
I think it really depends on the Floodgate that we're talking about because you have some where it locks you from doing something, but doesn't outright prevent you from playing the game + depending on the deck you're playing it might not affect you at all. You know something like "There Can Be Only One"
Then you have floodgates like "Vanity's Emptiness" or "Imperial Order" which, for a majority of decks outside of a very, very, VERY few exceptions, might as well just say "You can't play the game. Scoop it up"
I like floodgates because they are the only way for an older archetype to have a chance in today's yugioh. This game needs a resource cost for actions, and has needed it for many years. How exactly is it supposed to be fun to play against something that vomits its entire deck onto the field/graveyard on the first turn to end with 5+ omni-negates AND recycle the used cards to be reused the next turn? This game was power-crept out of being fun for me too long ago, and now that Duel Links is suffering the same problem I have no way to play the game and actually have fun anymore.
If Yugioh had a resource cost like other card games, then it wouldn’t be Yugioh anymore. Not to mention that as long as Konami keeps its current mentality of card design, the same thing will only happen again.
@darkstorm2579 interestingly, they are experimenting with resources right now with the shining sarcophagus archetype and a couple others. I like what they are doing with them.
@@zeroenna8554 What are you talking about (not being rude, I'm genuinely curious on what you mean)? I have a Shining Sarcophagus deck and while I do love it, its major problem is no consistent way of getting the Shining Sarcophagus card (if you have Gadget Trio search it and the opponent negates it, then you're screwed). The archetype definitely needs more support, although I do like that it doesn't rely on the Extra Deck so much like other decks do (save for Dragoon or Draglubion).
@@darkstorm2579 I will rephrase, I like the direction that they are taking with these archetypes. I agree that some consistency boosters would be nice, but I also see how difficult it can be to increase consistency without going too far. Yugioh is terrible for future-proofing.
@@zeroenna8554 I see. That makes sense. Shining Sarcophagus is honestly a pretty fair deck, especially compared with the current competition. All it really needs is another way to search out the main card and it'll be perfect (and I hope in a non-broken way like we see with the current meta decks).
How about, "fuck you, stop relying on effects and broken spells you carry your wass" is the perfect response to so much meta B.S that's been happening to Yu-gi-oh these last few years.
TBH the thing I noticed about those that hate floodgates are the ones who typically play Meta or OTK decks and hate it when their "end duel in one turn" 'strategy' can't work and give them an instant win. That's my experience anyway...
Nope out of 10 decks i play i roll my eyes 9 times when i see floodgates. And none of my deck are really meta
Same as me
LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER. Floodgates and such make decks that were already less than teir 0 to 1 pretty much unplayable. Good luck playing a for fun deck when some bozo pulls up with floodgates for no reason lol
@@danielbarnes1241literally
FACTS. It's the number one thing I also noticed. Time and time again. There are so many cards that literally stop floodgates while they're active, before activation and afterwards. So the complaint about them just means they're not privy to what the rest of cards do in their library of cards. The game is literally built around there not being one card to rule them all. It's how you build the deck. Period. Don't like floodgates? Then add floodgate stoppers in your side deck. Which is what you should be doing anyway. Js
Floodgates ain't the problem, but a symptom. The real problem is the Competitive players who either abuse them or require their existence to combat.
too many special summons in Yugioh, they should put a limit on that. Back then if you wanted a powerful monster you needed to sacrifice some now one monster can special summon 5 powerful monsters.
Yes.
As a Pokemon TCG player, nah, some floodgates are fine. We have had cards that turn off abilities for a long time and this shuts down utility bench mons (which is strong and impactful). The ease to get the floodgate-like ability has changed through the years. The problem lies in the strength, abundance, and ease of these type of effects for Yu-Gi-Oh. I think it is even shown well in the portion going 1 by 1. Most of these cards are not problems and will never be problems for the meta because the effects are too limited, weak, or niche. Unnecessarily banning or limiting them then seems unreasonable and limits creativity (might as well implement rotation at that point). If a new card comes out that enables degenerate plays with one of these older cards, that is the card that should be banned or limited, not the card that has been fine to allow in play for decades.
I mean...we say that Floodgates "Nerf" meta decks and "We shouldn't bring "good" decks down so older ones can compete."
But if that meta deck was really that good, why cant it play around/through/out the Floodgate? If you can't be Meta because Rivalry of Warlords is on the Field, slot in back row removal, vary up your Monster Types, do something.
This game is simply too fast and too unforgiving (and arguably unfun) to not be kneecapping Tearlaments at every on-field opportunity, cause given the chance they will lock you out of the game.
If were gonna say "Skill issue," to peoole who wanna play Dark Magician, Gustos, Toons, etc. fine, but lets keep that same energy when Macro Cosmos, Imperial Order, etc. are on the field and your deck is a paperweight. If not, then something has to slow this game down, cause this 4 Turn-Duel Era is NOT it.
4 turns?
I already lost at the coin flip.
It’s just one of many issues with modern yugioh. Floodgates wouldn’t be such an issue for people right now if the game wasn’t so fast as hell, like you said it’s a crutch for rogue decks. However the flip side is if we buff all rogue decks then that’s the power creep issue rearing its ugly head, and I think we can all agree that power creep has been an issue in the game for over a decade now. I’m glad you’re highlighting several issues and acknowledging that floodgates are definitely not the only problem.
They are a necessary evil annoying but without them there would be no game with the games extreme speed i support anything that makes the game last more than 4 turns.
Konami could implement a "tag" on each card and add a ruling where you can only have one "floodgate" card on the field at a time
For me i do enjoy working around floodgates, at least the more basic ones. Omni negates i do find demoralising though. Both in principle ‘stop you playing’ but one i see as a puzzle. The other is someone slapping your card out of your hand saying nope.
Its the same thing but the omninegate is way harder to counter since the opponent has the choice to do it anytime. I dont think omninegate is that unfair unless its something generic like barrone or borreload where anyone can bring it out. Then its still a puzzle, you just need to trick your opponent into negating something so you can finish off the full combo required to take back control of the duel
quick question, why hasn't Konami just did the same thing they did in the Synchro era & just removed a bunch of annoying meta cards, and then just make a new meta (preferably one that's a bit slower)? I remember it being mentioned that they did it back then to make Synchro's the new big thing, and banned a bunch of annoying cards part of that meta to make it focused around that, they could just do that again and I think a bunch of people would be happy.