Animation Abuse SOLVED.
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- Опубліковано 22 лип 2024
- This video continues in discussion about 'animation abuse'. This video objectivelly discuses reasons why animation abuse is disliked by casual players, and possible solutions to this problem with their pros and cons are offered.
Music by LuKremBo ( / @lukrembo )
- onion ( • (no copyright music) l... )
- bread ( • (no copyright music) j... )
[these 2 songs were repeating in the whole video]
Mordhau Devblog Video
• MORDHAU Devblog - #2 M...
Chivalry Closed Beta Combat Guide
• Chivalry 2 - Closed Be...
00:00 Introduction
00:18 Why do players get upset?
00:53 Reason 1: Exploit
01:37 Reason 2: Unaccessible information
02:50 Reason 3: Players are unused to being bad
03:51 Skill Issue?
06:19 Reason 4: Unrealism
08:08 Importance of Animation Abuse
09:08 Solution
12:06 Conclusion of the whole video
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honestly a adjusted version of the KCD combat which actually works in 1vX would be pretty interesting
I think animation manipulation is not the only way to make a complex fighting system. The main takeaway is that Devs should acknowledge how their game is played and also try new things with their games to see if they can add depth in other areas
I think a good compromise would be a short 4-6 hour single player/co-op campaign that could go in depth about the combat against AI enemies. Like have a boss that teaches you to feint/jab/etc. That way new players could learn about all of the tools they have before they go into PVP.
oh shit, that’s really good. i like that!
im in camp 4. My biggest problem is that the animations look absolutely terrible when Strongly abused.
your fighting against a guy that is turning himself into a pretzel.
and your forced to do the same to win even if you do win it just looks like trash.
Mordhau is one of the most rewarding games to learn, people just need to curb their ego and accept that you need to learn.
I have an idea for a revamped combat system, the attacks will be similar to chivalry 2 in terms of feints/morphs, cancels, heavies and kicks. There will be held block, However counters will be completely different and chambers from mordhau and parries from mordhau will also be included, meaning there will be held block and timed parry. Held block will rapidly drain stamina faster so than chiv 2 and will be dealt slightly extra Stan damage on hit, however the timed parry will have a longer window than mordhau (meaning you can parry earlier to parry a drag etc) however, if you parry earlier you will lose more stamina than you did if you partied later, meaning the person who reacts the best by parrying the latest consistently will win the stamina battle, ripostes will be similar to mordhau however you can also feint/morph a riposte for increased swing variety, to gain stamina you need to land hits on your enemy. There can also be a block to riposte system (holding block then parrying for long drags) and a panic parry system (if you parry and miss you can hold block however even though this will save you from a bit you will be dealt double stamina damage) kicks will break and stun held block and will also interrupt someone’s swing, jabs will only interrupt neutral attacks (it will not interrupt ripostes). For 1vx active parry will activate similarly to chiv 2 when you riposte. If you cannot land a hit on an enemy to gain stamina, then counters will be used (however unlike chivalry, you cannot counter feint to counter or feint after chambering) and counter will have an extremely small window (smaller than mordhaus parry window) meaning it’s very hard to land a counter, but when it lands it will give you some stamina back, meaning it’s really easy to drag someone on low stamina because they’ll try and counter you for stamina.
So in a nutshell, this allows for top tier competition and easily accessible for noobs due to held block. In a nutshell, a blend of mordhau and chivalry, held block for noobs but bad for stamina, parries like mordhau for conserving stamina and the later you parry the more stamina you save, chambers from mordhau but will cost more stamina than riposte and finally counters (which have the lowest window of all defended but gives you stamina if you can’t land a hit on someone) jabs will interrupt neutral swings but not ripostes, and kicks will interrupt neutrals and break block, kicks and jabs can be parried or kicked/jabbed back for no stamina loss.
Cancels from chiv (or feints from mordhau) will exist and you can feinta morph (chivalry feint) however it will cost an insane amount of stamina and held block of course can be used. Heavies from chiv will function the same however they will deal twice the stamina damage to held block sne can also cleave through ripostes allowing you to hit other people in 1vx, however light attacks will have more freedom of turn cap to drag/accel than heavies so people don’t rely on heavies. Depending on the time when you riposte/release, you can perform a fast or slower riposte to incresss the swing manipulation even more.
A final idea is including glory kills/executions, if someone you are fighting is 1 hit away from death with your weapon, you can perform a glory kill jab (which the enemy can parry or block) but if it lands, you will perform an animated execution similarly to battlefields knife animations with your weapon that will leave you vilenersble as you do the animation, but after you will regain full stamina and lots of health back, you can also regain health on kills although it will slowly regenerate to a certain point
There is a lot of good idea on this
Helding block system of chivarly 2 is just bad and lazy, warband did better
@@Kidnamedchicanerygaming How did warband do it differently if, I may ask?
Can't wait to read other's opinions and ideas. My would solve the first 3 reasons - it would prepare & teach new players. It would not fix 4th reason. It also has some downsides. Feel free to discuss, and consider subscribing and liking the video if you enjoyed it.
Also, just in case it wasn't clear from the video: both games have ugly animations, they are easier to deal with in Chiv, more annoying in Mordhau.
I think an important aspect of animation abuse which makes it exploit-like is the manner in which it reduces the consistency of the game itself.
For example, as far as I know there is no melee game which guarantees a certain amount of animation plays before a morph or a feint/cancel other than Renown which is implementing that on morphs.
In Chivalry 2 this causes issues such as the blended intermediate animations cannibalizing fast windups, causing attacks with effectively no visible windup(animation hiding) in an unhealthy manner. In Mordhau, you get enough control over attack and playermodel that even the highest level players are going to fuck up understanding what is going on even if it's someone using variations of just a single attack from a single side under some circumstances.
My theory is that rather than having cancels exist outside of cancel/feint to parry without a significant cooldown(delay next action to a little behind in neutral) you could use a combination of allowing an infinite number of morphs(stam-willing) with requiring a minimum amount of animation to play to prevent excessive cannibalization of animations by poor blending to essentially resolve this specific aspect of animation abuse.
Another big problem is intrinsically ambiguous windups combined with poor hitbox placements. The Greatsword in chivalry 2, for example, has been infamous for handle hit overhead instant hitting out of overhead to overhead feints where it gets to have essentially total ambiguity due to the fact that nothing changes about how the player moves until you've been hit outside of human reaction time from the beginning of weapon movement. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of restriction to prevent full accels under some circumstances, and there have been games which have tried to solve that with differing damage values based on the amount of time spent in release.
I also can only continue to see third person as a blight on the genre, as the sheer angle swings reach on slashes in chiv 2, for example, enables light spins with basically every weapon in the game. This isn't a bad thing on its own. The bad thing is that you're able to access this timing mixup with no downsides. A significant portion of the reason that defense is as strong as it is in chiv 2(stam should probably go down even faster due to the sheer power of held parry) is because it has to be. Third person offense is just that strong due to having what is essentially full access to all defensive mechanics regardless of situation with little risk of lockout. There has to be a better way to do first person cameras which helps people with motion sickness without unleashing third person upon these games.
Animation abuse can never be gotten rid of, but it can be relatively more limited to actually favor the kind of footsies, timing, and trickery that you'd see out of Hellish Quart, for example. The intersection of broken mechanics and animation abuse is where it becomes seriously more problematic, and that's something which no melee game dev has really fully controlled.
That was really in depth, good job. I played Mordhau since 2019 and what I suspect is that the blending was once less inconsistent as it is now. Some update along the road had something of the sorts of 'smoothing the blendspaces' of the different attack phases in its update logs, since that time I feel what you described as animation phases cannibalizing on each other. I think they did a deliberate choice there, when they realized you could play it really safe, if you were really good at hard reading.
Would really appreciate if someone could confirm having gotten the same impression druing that time.
On the part concerning 3rd person, I feel that 1st person lacks the ability to look to your sides while midswing.
In a game which relies less on swing manip, and more on really fast strikes, this would be endurable.
But a game like mordhau then boxes your line of sight for too long when performing anything else but an accel.
Punishing new players for being, well, new, and not allowing them to have fun while improving their skills is a recipe for community death.
I wonder if or when will the new players who picked the game up on Epic drop it and leave the game with fewer players than before the giveaway...
I dont have a problem with drags and accels. I love tech in my games. I mostly have a problem with the stabs for most weapons not really telegraphing when they are in hit phase all that well, and the animations for the pole-arms not lining up with their motions at all. Like they need to rework some of the pole-arm animations to just look better, they can function the same, they just need to telegraph where they are. That being said, as a new player I am enjoying the shit out of mordhau and i wish it were more popular. Anyone seen that guy GONK? He's insane! Edit: forgot to say GREAT VIDEO MAN! This one and the last one! I loved both!
nice solution you proposed
i would add that the advanced tutorials could be unlocked with lvl 50, 100, 150 or so
since new players are probably overwhelmed already with the basics they would have time to learn and additional motivation.
additionally to that there could be something that detects the kind of skill you trying to do and you get some kind of e.g. 40% hit rate with it and brag about your superior stats - but this could be to complicated to implement, I don't know. But the tutorial and level stuff seems like a low hanging fruit
I completely agree. Introducing new players to these mechanics in a controlled environment means that they won't be discovering it for the first time by dying to it and hence create less fo a negative stigma around the mechanics. Additionally, it would reduce the demonisation of more advanced players who are 'exploiting' the game if they are already accustomed to it and see the developers endorsement.
It might turn some off the combat, but they would eventually have to deal with it and doing so in a controlled positive environment is much better then self-discovery of the genre.
On a side note, whilst swing manipulation has often been attributed to the decline of the likes of mordhau I think it was ultimately the planning and game direction, or therfore lack off that truly led to the decline of mordhau. The lack of updates no doubt lead to it's reduction in player base, but I think it's rather due to its abysmal game direction. A group of ex chiv comp players made a game with an in depth highly skilled combat system that was marketed for casual players. It doesn't make sense.
The game thrives best in small temfights where individual performance matters without the bullshit tery of horses, caterpults, ballista. Yet they decided to make huge scale battles with all of these, what I'd call 'unfun, uncountable, 1 shot mechanics'. Whilst big medieval warfare is good for marketing, the highly polished, high skilled combat is completely out of place. Skill-based match making is something that is inherintly needed for such high skill floor and celling games to prevent new players from being stomped, yet the large scale invasion and frontline gemodes do not allow for that. The modes are inherintly unbalanced due to their size, poor map design, lack of personal impact and for just being inherintly bad (frontline), hence reducing the replay ability. The factors that bring players back is ultimately the combat, yet the direction and gamodes the developers created ultimately detracts from it and reduces the insentive to play why does it matter how good at parrying you are if an unblock able bolder or firebomb can kill you from 20 metres away.
Duelling is meant to be practice for the fights that take place within larger team conflicts, not be the entire content for any player over level 100 who doesn't want to roleplay. Mordhau has never had an issue with getting new players to buy the game, but always had in retaining them.
Flock of Goose. Sounds like a name I'm seeing on Mordhau servers.
Anyway, I completely agree with what you say. The video sticks to the topic of 'animation abuse' but there is undoubtedly many more reasons that makes player leave the game, like the updates & team balancing you mentioned. But I didn't want to mix too many stuff into 1 video.
Happy pride for archers😂😂 0:45
I joined a few rounds and holy shite there were an incredible ammount of archers. I kept getting clapped by them. When I was one of them we bunch up and spam projectiles down an area. We anihilated whatever enemy that was in front of us and defended eachother from players rushing us.
Triternion actually made many efforts to make movement manipulation exploitation less prominent. They've done this with almost every update.
I'm a novice mordhau player who regularly goes like 27-50 in a match on a good day, the issues I have is dealing long, very slow drags that genuinely don't look like they should do full damage with how sluggish they are and polearms being able to feint way later than I anticipate.
the second bit is understandable for the most part (though I feel like those weapons should deal way less damage if you're slapping someone with the shaft and not the head) but the former is just frustrating to me for a game that looks so grounded as you said. would it through off the balance if attacks did less damage the longer the swing goes? I believe a system like that is already in place but it hardly crops up in fights in my experience.
great video, btw
thanks! some weapons like zweihander or eveningstar can both hit you in like 100 miliseconds or either 600 ms, so i understand that newer players will struggle with proper timing of blocking these attacks.
Dragging/accelling is at a retarded point right now and needs fixing. A blade in your head should register as a hit immediately, not after five frames because of swing delay + animation exploit
My idea for the next melee slasher is to make the game essentially an incredibly complex "quick time event" combat system. There would be normal swings and parries of course, but parry wouldnt be universal, youd need to combo movement and parry in order to create different types of counter (eg "push aside" "grab" "twist disarm" "bind") when an attack is blocked, multiple options open up to both players, allowing them to select multiple options in order to gain advantage. for example, someone blocks a spear with a sword, the sword player tries to grab their opponents spear and stop him from attacking again, while the spear player opts to drop their weapon and go for a quick punch. Grappling and wrestling might be included as well, armor weak spots, etc. also areas of heavy plate armor would entirely prevent slashing damage, only causing flinch/stun/stamina loss. Movement tech might involve shifting your weight, trying to knock someone over or detabilize their footing, etc. Replace the artificial high skill ceiling of player made "tricks" with specifically designed animations and mechanics in order to create cinematic fights. The focus of course would still be on avoiding mistakes, but in general the idea would be to make combat more focused on quick muscle memory actions and descisions, avoiding jank animations. asymmetrical combat is always going to be more interesting. a player with a halberd might have an innate advantage against someone without the range to match him, but utterly helpless against a skilled shield user. teams would be forced to coordinate like units, or be torn to shreds by a mob with no chance to react.
sounds interesting, but usually going way too realistic usually results in boring game. so many players suggested realistic combat in medieval games, but I think we're far from that. targeting weakspots etc. sounds too fantasy for me. but cool idea.
i have about 200 hours in mordhau and the only way to learn how to combat these high level attacks are dying, hundreds and hundreds of times, because theres no way to combat them for a new player, i hate them but dont want them removed, i just wish they were not so effective, and another thing is the high time to kill. one thing to reduce effectiveness of drags/accels would be to make damage ease in and out so the full damage is at center of screen, so they would still have an advantage, they would then be balance with a disadvantage as well.
Maybe there could be certain voice line's, more like grunts with every attack, that way you will know they are attacking and can at least block it, specific noises for each attack so you can hear an overhead for example.
Personally, i would have them remove 3rd person perspective and if there's still loads of people that want to play like a ballerina then fair enough.
At least then i'd actually be impressed knowing they were doing it in 1st person perspective.
When mordhau was still fairly knew I knew this topic just would take literal years to get to a point where the community is even willing to discuss it.
Biggest problem with these types of games are the inconsistency of these animations. I get way too into the game, where I'll try to fight like my life was actually in danger and apply real life logic to the situation. Not good in a video game I'm well aware, but it becomes a big problem when I'm fighting someone close to a wall. Let's say it's on my left, and I use a long sword. I know I can't use swing attacks from the left side, because my weapon will colide with the wall and it does everytime! So I'm focused on my own weapon and that of the enemy due to my "hyper submersion", but for some retarded reason the enemy I'm fighting has a poleaxe, an even longer weapon and they seem to be able to swing, riposte and chamber through solid objects. So even if I expect them to do some unrealistic bullshit and moving their body in unatural ways. I still can't counter the axehead going through a wall or a beam, or the worst one when they make underhanded attacks, through the ground. Because when I swing my weapon too close to such an object my attack gets interrupted, but theirs don't and that makes me mad, how is it fair that some weapons can just ignore these rules in certain situations and others can't? Furthermore if I get close to the enemy, he has a long polearm, so his swings should hit me with just the handle and not do full damage, yet I still take the full damage. He should not want me to get close to him, because he has a polearm, but here I am being punished for not knowing these immersion breaking "tricks" and for thinking he can't hit me through solid objects, because I can't hit him through them and that's on top of the already unrealistic movements he's using. Oh the enemy is using a maul? And his either slowing down his attack or feinting them? Slowing down your swing shouldn't give 100% of the damage because you're not hitting as hard, and feinting a right side attack only to then instantly teleport your arms into a now leftsided attack shouldn't even be possible with such a heavy weapon. The weapons should function realistically. A maul should therefore be a high risk, high reward kinda weapon where if you tried all manner of bullshit with it, you should get punished for it. If you're using a polearm, then you better keep the enemy at a distance because your weapon can only do it's full damage there. They already have the whole sharp weapons do less damage to armor thing going, so why did they stop the realism there!? This is just like when you play shooters, where you think you're in cower, but serverside you're still visible. Still bullshit yes, but this is worse! Here you're fighting up close an personal and your opponent suddenly twists his whole body around in an unatural way and somehow hits you through a wall while his back is turned! You'd rightfully think the guy was hacking if something like that happened in a shooter. Animation abuse should never EVER be a thing in a medieval melee game!
You may never see this but I'll tell you anyways. Swing manipulation is moving where release happens. Every mordhau player uses swing manipulation even if they don't realize it. Instead of having instant attacks, or instant attacks with unnecessary feeling wait time between them, we have attacks that start immediately with a telegraphed beginning and let you chain them if you don't miss or get blocked. Once you discover that attacks are duration based and that attacks can be moved with nearly any input, you find what is lost when removed. For example, some players think that swing manipulation and dragging are separate until you point out basic flaws in their definitions. Many players think dragging is exclusively mouse manipulation, where you're pulling back an attack progressing away from its original starting position. Then you ask them how they drag stabs and they realize stabs start and move forward from the player on the z-axis and you can't move your mouse in the z-axis, only left, right, up, or down. You'll also notice that the act of pulling back a swing is used in many things like correcting a swing to hit a player crouching too early, target switching, and moving attacks around teammates. Footwork is also connected to your attacks because moving your legs moves your entire player which moves your arms and your arms attached to the weapon you're attacking with. Footwork and swing manipulation are connected, and footwork pulls on the most basic primal understanding. 1. move your body to avoid hits 2. less distance between thing going to hit you = generally going to hit you sooner and be less react-able More distance between thing going to hit you = generally going to hit you later and be more react-able You can apply this basic understanding in many things, dodgeball is one of many. Even what tracers are is known by people in gun communities, shows where the damaging thing was.
TDLR: Just wanted to let you know everyone uses swing manipulation in mordhau without even realizing it. It's not some weird dark art, it's just moving where release happens. It's used to help all players hit each other more and move around obstacles.
guy at 0:47 saying happy pride for archers lmao
The way dragging ("animation abuse") works in mordhau was intended by the devs. They've tried to find a balance where it's not too ridiculous, but they always had those intentions in mind from the beginning. Mordhau's developers are ex chivalry: medieval warfare players
I think about few ways how to fix that(btw i think nearly all stab animations are unreadable) . 1) Block or restrict swing manipulation in casual mode or add new mode with swing manip's restrictions so you can control your swings but not that hard. 2) That one is debatable- to make matchmaking focus on player lvl for example 0-10, 10-30,30-70, 70-120, and 120+ . Or easier like 0-10, 10-50 and 50+. So new players will not be farmed by more experienced players and will be able to progress their skill in more friendly environment (smurfing danger but the more you kill - the faster you gain xp so if 200lvl dude buys game on twink account and make 120kills in first game he will be launched to 50lvl in few matches because game will provide xp for every kill and multiply xp reward if you make lots of kills). 3)Force new players to fight by blocking bow and engineer for new players and make it available from 40lvl.
Matchmaking and balance would be nice. I did not include that in the video as it doesn’t fit into the topic of AA, but it’s another aspect making new players leave.
I think one way to keep the complexity/depth and get rid of the ballerina swings and similar, is to have a combat system that has real physics programmed into the swings. Irl think how hard it would be to do one of these ballerina swings, because of how hard it would be to control the momentum of a heavy sword. Basically you should be able to swing the sword fast, but that should also make it harder to control, and I think the most realistic way of doing that is with real ballistics physics
But short of that, one thing that they could do is to make it so you cant turn as fast while crouched, I always thought that looked silly and it gives way to some of the chiv2 spinning tricks, as you always see people crouching down. my 2cents
very comprehensive and informative video, nicely presented and i think your analysis is good also
thank you, i appreciate it.
realistic physics would be hella cool. i mean even feints (chiv) / morphs (mordhau) are hardly doable in real life. you can't just change direction of your swings so easily. or can you? idk i'm not probably not strong enough to do that.
the real question is whether this combat would be fun. in the end, videogames are arcadey, crossover between something from real life, but made to be fun.
Swords aren't heavy.
held block is a good way to make these games more new player friendly without fixing the underlying problems of animation abuse (being the excessively slow, telegraphed overswinging attacks); if you fuck up your defense timing you are put at a disadvantage but you don't instantly get hit for full damage at the cost of, say, constant stamina drain while blocking and a recovery window when exiting block stance without actually blocking an attack.
This system would make it so held blocks are a useful defensive tool but run you a high risk of getting put in a very bad position when the hit you re expecting to take does not come quickly. (you either need to leave block stance, which leaves you defenseless for a moment, or you stay in block stance, losing stamina over time, eventually leaving you defenseless as well)
Accels would still be useful as a way to hit the enemy before he parries.
Drags would run a high risk of getting countered by held block but they can feinted/whiffed to force the enemy into a vulnerable state.
In other words, everything would remain viable in it's own way but new players would at least have something to keep them alive for longer than a second in a fight.
"Just play for honor lmao"
that's completely different game
@@vildae yes , that's the punchline , at least no junky animation , but from ubisoft tho
@@ioriloritoriThere's no swing manipulation, you can't even begin to compare For Honor with Mordhau or Chiv
@@OdysseyK that's the joke exactly yes , so it's in quotes
A mechanic abuse that hurts readability should never exist in video games, regardless of how skill it takes to master. Every game should feel fair to even the noobest of players. And you can do that without lowering the skill ceiling or removing depth from mechanics. This is why animation abuse shouldn't exist in multiplayer slashing games like Chiv 2 and Mordhau.
Yell said friend, ive watched the vid series on this and i can say myself that doing janky stuff to kill new players dosent really bring me much joy instead i retired to jester status in mordhau 😭
same, i just meme around
You said war of the roses and my childhood cried.
I only have an issue with animation abuse in mordhau. The actual problem is both the punishing parry mechanic+feint. I've seen people turn there Character to hit me faster, but then they feint. This combination feels unfair to me. Because if I don't parry, I could have easily been hit right then. Perhaps better players would have better foot work, or go for a chamber. But for new players? Good luck. I'm 280 hours in, and I still often flinch at early wind ups before a feint. Mostly when I'm turning around to see another player trying to hit me. It's even more annoying when someone feint spams. I quickly turn around to defend myself, and I don't have time to process what they are doing.
chambers directly counter feints. you should practice if you wanna get better at that.
i saw some dude actually doing it in chivalry 2 for the first time -=[ completely out of sync. Vildae, are you teaching how to do this stuff anywhere?
what stuff? spins or? i never taught anyone outside BKM, i never did a guide video on it either.
Aaaah Wilba! That lil spinning snow white! 😅
Thats why I quit competitive games vs players at all. There ALWAYS will be people that will sweat in a game, do glitches, abuse mechanics and be better overall in game. Even if you are new to a game, there are smurfs. And you cant do anything about it because its in our blood - to break a game and win it, no matter if we play against AI or other players.
About skill and swing manipulations: irl in fencing there are no drags, axels and things like that, but longsword fights irl are one of the most fun experiences I ever had in life. And skill cap is basically don't exist. So may be it is better to find ways to implement real life techniques into games, than to deal with drags?
Try out hellish quart, it's a fencing game in early stages of development, and it's pretty realistic
@@Alexander-ri8jx yeah this game is good, even though I'm not a fan of genre.
mount and blade warband multiplayer was mint tho, simple and equal
Simply lower the sensitivity for attacks so that its more of a commitment to the direction of your swing. Maybe just for heavy weapons to lower your ability to abuse the 2 hit weapons
sensitivity would solve only swing manip, which is quite ok. ot
@vildae I think the one where you're slapping someone directly behind you is the worst/goofiest one so I'm not calling for the other ones to be dealt with
Mordhau is like smash Melee, even with the toxic community and insanely high skill ceiling due to it's fringe tech. Chivalry is like Ultimate, much more casual in nature, but still requires skill to become good at it.
This is still mostly in response to your past video where you highlighted all the animation jank/tech....
There needs to be a level of predictability for attacking animations to reward skilled players (as well as allow new players to even begin learning the game without needing to be experienced with how to respond to all the animation manipulation) and you overall want to avoid the melee combat becoming whoever can do as many high tech tricks to "out trick" the other player.
I mean if I wanted to remove looking up or down to make the animation look weird, as well as drag and accel altogether , since imo my first impressions would be that they are unintuitive mechanics... I'd make it so when you swung the melee weapon, your arms will continue to swing the weapon at where you released the mouse independently of where the player camera is looking. Besides maybe for stabbing attacks so you can still follow your targets more forgivingly.
Then To fix the player looking at a certain position before attacking to have the swing hit earlier or later as well; the damage would ramp up based on how far along in the animation the attack was. So trying to position your swings so that the hitbox starts to touch your opponent immediately will result in a weak hit. Though I guess this would affect bludgeoning weapons more since drag cuts are a thing.
Seems like a fun challenge to design a game which tries to fix the jank instead of giving the player "hold down to block" and calling it a day.
There'd still be feinting, delaying your attack, fast pommel strikes/handle strikes? And kicks to throw your opponent off, and I personally think that is enough in the tricks department of a melee game to me just from a first impressions standpoint.
Though this would be a different game, not suggesting they should change anything in Chiv or Mordhau.
That's cool idea but that would be really hard to implement. I'm actually curious how next melee slasher game will look.
@@vildae Honestly I think something can could potentially fix 'some' animation abuse would be physics added to the swings. For instance if someone starts their left to right swing animation while they're looking to the right and they connect with someone while the swing is in it's 'start up' phase, it would essentially deal no damage. There needs to be force behind swings for them to cause damage, not just the blade connecting with the body. Now how you implement something like that I'm unsure but I'm sure it's possible. Exanima does something like this although it's pretty darn janky. For instance, in Exanima, when you attempt to swing but contradict the movement that is fluid with that action, your character can trip over themselves and you're left extremely vulnerable. Just my thoughts on how one might deal with some of the issues although there are plenty more that could be discussed.
I have been playing chivalry 2 and have several issues. Overall, I appreciate the spirit of the game and the many, many play styles and the historical accuracy, BUT, my experience with the game has been trending towards the negative due to poor performance and also, I just don't feel like I'm improving, I just run, get ambushed by 8 players, die, repeat.
-the dodge sucks : short distance, long cooldown, and it consumes stamina, which is already an issue
-terrible performance and frequent crashes, as well as some players being entirely invulnerable to my attacks (only happened to me twice, and one of the times the connection was very very bad)
-counters really suck compared to ripostes, they only couter one type of attack, they suck against multiple enemies
-sometimes i am unable to sprint (fixes itself whenever i die)
-no real training mode, yeah there is the "training grounds" but that doesnt really help because the bots both are stupid and they dont act like players
-cluttered controls, i frequently misinput (debatably a skill issue, but is at least partially the game's fault)
-stabs dont seem to have extra range
-even when you choose archer, at the beginning of the match it still spawns you right next to the melee classes, leaving you to be rushed down by a crafty vanguard looking for a free kill, who, after killing you, promptly dies
-door stuck! please, i beg you! GRENADE (or rather a firebomb)
-why are my arrows curving left and right in the air
-when fighting against multiple opponents, one of them can just spam kick and I can't do anything about it because he's covered by the other guy.
I'll try to respond to some issues you have, that I can say something about.
Dodge isn't something you should use very often. Also every class has different stamina/distance ratio.
Counters are quite ok against 1vX. They are same as a riposte, actually (with only stamina benefit).
Sprint is automatic. No need to sprint.
Bots sucks, true that.
Stabs have extra range depending on a weapon. But you're right, they're more like 'different attack', instead of being the longest one.
Against spam kicking, you can use your footwork and try to counter/riposte with minimum time of holding the block. That should be enough.
Being archer and spawning in the big fight might seem weird, but you can distance yourselves while holding block easily. And about bending arrows I don't know anything.
Drags and excells are fine. Just started mordhau 2 weeks ago. But the beyblade style fighting is simply boring. I was hoping to find a bigger for honor and a better one. Im glad most animation abuser hamg around in duel servers...
Well I like to research any game I'm interested in. Honestly all gamers should do the same. To be honest most of the moves in mordhau are possible, but that would be way too many animations to program into the game so this so-called animation abuse is just another way to achieve those movements with the limited amount of animations available. Personally I think if some of the top players offered some fencing lessons, I don't think as many players would get upset with the game. I personally would let GIRU or you or whoever, repeatedly annihilate me just so I can learn how to play better. Cuz that's gaming yo.
I appreciate your attitude towards the gaming. I'm also huge 'wikipedia gamer' who studies a researches a lot about the game, but that's just how we are made.
Some players, really, just like to get beer & play casually instead of 'sweating'.
To be honest, i love the chaos that this combat system creates in a 32v32 setting. 1v1 are cool also but not my focus, so chivalry 2 ends up being WAY better for me.
I try to imagine the 30v30 fight in a bridge but with the animation abuse of mordhau and its doesnt seem fun for the average/casual player
Idk about you guys but the balance between this two combat systems in mordhau and chivalry 2 Is quite perfect for me, you want chaos, goofy teamwork and options to fight casually without needing to be good? Chivalry 2.
You want epics and very skilled 1v1s with awesome cancels, reads, and using everything about the game? mordhau.
exactly! i wish people would understand this more. comments are often flooded with stuff like "damn mordhau bad" or "mordhau > chiv", when it's just personal prefference.
easy fix: melee slasher games always feel the need to keep animations slow to be able to read them. This introduces the ability to accel and drag your weapon. To counter this, Chiv 2 added a held block, so it wouldn't matter if the attack being parried was slow or not. Makes sense, but will cause players to want to abuse the animations more just to get pass the held block. What needs to happen is attack speed needs to be almost realistically fast, and the parry system should revolve around sort of a directional blocking instead of a simple static parry animation with held block. This will allow players to focus on try to realistically stop an incoming weapon by proper positioning of their own weapon while also completely eliminating drags and accels. Combat would be very fast, have tons of skill and look really fluid once you get the hand of it. Add kicks and bashed into the mix, as well as feints and other combat mechanics and you would have a game that would be hard to learn, but super rewarding once you do. Top tier players would be skilled in quickly reading and countering with a correct response rather than "hah hee, I drag weapon and they die".
agreed, a big part of the problem with these games is the stupidly slow and telegraphed attacks; faster attacks with less overswing means less room to fuck up the animations and gives more consistent parry windows; it would also mean more "deadzones" to player attacks, making positioning more important in group fights.
That’s basically warband without held block. I’d say Chiv’s formula is the best bet.
@@_vxd_ No you'd still have held block in what i'm talking about
@@dawnbreakerii204 So, just warband then ?
@@_vxd_ no, would be more than 3 or 4 directions. I dont think warband has alt modes either, or kicks. also warband isnt in 1st person
left 4 dead 2 have ingenious combat, when you look down or up, your swing radius will be smaller than looking forward, so in l4d2 don't have looks like look down and turn 90° left and swing right side for fastest overhead(bullshit from mordhau),we need that mechanic in chivalry 2 and mordhau, for fixing that shit
As someone who played mordhau from the games launch. Swing manipulation isn't the problem, its animation abuse. Those are different in my eyes, swing manipulations only really go as far as making the attack hit quicker or slower than just staring at them while you do it, however abuse is when you are intentionally deceptive in which animation you're even playing or begin spinning. I don't think I have to clarify this, any sane person will know why its a problem, but I will anyways.
games such as Mordhau and Chiv are meant to be Fun, Interesting, and Captivating visually at least to some degree. Animation abuse is the anthesis of all of these to the vast majority of people. I myself learned how to do these abuses of the animations when it came to a point when at least 1/3 of the lobbies were doing it. I have to say it ruined the game for me and many many other people. when it was done to me, even after knowing how to do it and even sometimes when I ended up winning anyways it just felt frustrating and ugly to look at, not to mention janky to deal with. When I did it to other people I didn't feel accomplished or skilled, their was no possible way for them to counter it aside from spending hours of their life wasted learning how to read exact parry times on a ballerina twirl from a guy with a maul.
Perhaps I'm a filthy casual from being repelled by they super skilled melee ballerina men with hammers and no cloths, but I'm okay with that. Mordhau at launch was some of the most fun I've had in a game, now its a shell of that. This is not a problem unique to this genre at all, but people will always learn to grind the fun out of a game in favor of efficiency. regardless of the consequences for the game, others playing it, or even themselves. as for a solution, I have none. Far cleverer people who know much more about the genre have tried and failed to find one. A Band-Aid placed on an exploit will need more when the next is found. I'm cynical enough to say this will probably happen to every game of this genre ever released. Although I certainly hope I'm completely wrong in that. I can't say I agree that teaching everyone how to do it for themselves is the solution, but then again. "If you can't beat them join them."
Did my video come off as "swing manipulation is the problem"? Because I though that it's clear that I do not think so. That's what I said in the previous video as well, though, Swing manip is the gateway to advanced play, and it's technique on it's own, not exactly falling into the cathegory of animation abuse (only with some 'spicy' stuff like JPEGs, ..).
And, I agree with what you are saying.
@@vildae I was more making a defined clarification between the two. We all know swing manipulation isn't the problem, especially someone who probably knows more than me about it at this point.
I'm glad you agree, I've had discussions with people who still play these games whom are apologists for the state of mordhau and its animation abuse "Meta". Chiv is still fun from time to time though
@@JoeMama-dt6sw It's a tough topic, and that's why I created this video. If you read all the comments (and even on previous vid), there's too many opinions and veterans say 'git good' and new players complain. I'm probably veteran, but not playing competitively anymore, and I'm trying to be objective. I enjoy swing manip for sure, animation abuse I'm ok with, but I'm definitely not trying to promote these and shit on new players. That's just not right.
i think we're over complicating the solution, just improve the "matchmaking" of the game to ensure that people who perform on similar levels play at similar levels, we all know "that's what ranked is for" will be thrown around but at the end of the day to have a thriving game you need to have a thriving casual and non casual base, a casual player is not going to spend hours of their time to "learn" how to do or deal with the animation manipulations that are possible because they are by definition playing casually, and that same person should not be expected to put up with someone with 1000s of hours more then them reducing their game time to respawn simulator, a more robust matchmaker would solve the issue for everyone, unless you're a person who wants to "bully" casual/new players but people with that mindset will always find a way to do it anyway.
Ideal matchmaking would definitely help to some degree, the real question is 'can you (developers) do it?'. because there's also a lot of smurfs and game-time isn't the factor that tells about players' skills. and not K/D as well. it's hard to matchmake a game like this.
also matchmaking is kind of another issue that is bit distant from pure animation abuse, that's why I did not include that in video.
Playing chiv 2 as a new player I hated the crouchers and the swing cancelers but I never gave up on the game, I used to tell myself "look at u playing frogger while I'm playing chiv, I don't need to crouch to be good" and I wasn't bad I just was never going to get as good as I possibly could be at the game with that mindset. X amount of hours later over 100 levels in and I'm ducking canceling feinting and manipulating animations myself and I've never had more fun chopping off heads.
love to see the progress!
@@vildae i truly feel its people expecting instant gratification that give up so fast and cry about how hard it is, chiv is actually freaking simple once u gain a strong grasp on all of the mechanics
As it has always been. When people lose it's because of the game, when they win it's because of them being good. The reason why competitive games "die" is not because of the animations, it is because people can't accept being worse than others and often don't want to put in the effort. Just like irl with sports. It's not unfair, it's just the easy fact that the strongest (physically and mentally) win, and the rest loses. Then they either try to have fun at their level, or quit.
yeah the chiv 2 tutorial had me thinking id be good just for me to get humbled real quick in my first actual game
You know atleast in TO in Chivalry2 i don't see much of animations abuse because the battlefield is to chaotic to do that. Sure in dual servers might be something regular. But i don't duel because i prefer chaos and bloodshed.
true casual player
Been playing chiv2 since launch coming from mordau and can say that animation abuse is way less to non existent even on 1v1 private servers
It’s impossible to do
Both reason 1 and 4 are probably my reasons to dislike this phenomenon
I consider abusing unintended animations the same as abusing bugs in these games. Keyword being 'unintended'. If it is intended gameplay I would not call it abuse, that's just the game
I have no respect for the more severe animation abuse, just as I have no respect for people who find a way float under the ground to stab opponents in their feet
If an animation is unreadable and it is not intended to be unreadable, then it needs to be fixed just like a hole in the terrain letting people fall through it needs to be fixed
If it is intended, that's a choice the devs made and fair game. New players might not like it, but if they knew what they were getting into then complaining would just be silly
It also looks awful to see in action, whether it is seeing someone doing the twists and turns or seeing someone who goes up against someone doing animation abuse. It might be interesting for people into the game already seeing the animations used in ways they never expected but any casual viewer will just ask if he's witnessing someone having a stroke
More tutorials and learning resources are nice, but I think the only real solution is to fix animations that are actually broken. Or just make games where it is intended. Can't say animation abuse is a problem when it's the intended way to play the game
Official tutorials and learning resources from developers would make it look as an intended mechanic. No idea whether we will ever see this because I feel like devs rather pretend this issue doesn’t exist at all
For me the main problems with animation abuse is how ugly and stupid drags are looking.
Im not against pushing or dragging your swings. Its a simple way to manipulate the animations and is easy enough to catch, provided you're paying attention
Im against obvious abuse of the game engine that looks more in tune with dark magic then typical medival warfare. The kind of shit that nearly impossible to catch and is no longer a part of the medieval combat experience and is just sheer exploitation.
All I do is drag or spam accels in Chiv 2. So I basically play it the same way I play Mordhau.
Good video
thanks Bruno! i appreciate it. would you mind giving me your Discord? i wanted to contact you about something.
@@vildae Rich#1111
You could have some degree of manipulation in these games. Unpredictability was a thing in real combat. But when you and your opponent need to become like a worm holding a sword, twisting and turning like a washing machine, you know things have spiral out of control and you have a massive fail on your hands. Please don't tell me it's skill. It's more like a gambling game with swords.
Warband has no animation abuse whatsoever. It's just solid distance, footwork, directional blocking, chambers and kicks. Works fine up to these days.
Think about it
To me Mordhau was far more fun before any of us knew how to play the game. When it was chaotic and silly but also serious and tense at the same time. Nowadays I'll log in and it just feels like a total slog. The gap between the skill ceiling and floor has grown so high due to animation abuse that it truly just isn't fun anymore.
It just feels so hollow now, like when a game gives up its soul to chase down esports. Not to say Mordhau has done this in a literal sense but to me it certainly feels similar.
Sometimes it also takes me out of the game when I see people doing wacky animations and shit, it just doesn't feel serious at all to me; the same could be said about wacky and silly builds but those feel far more grounded than some of the shit I see nowadays.
In a way its like Bannerlord multiplayer. I go onto Bannerlord multiplayer and the only people playing are those who are capable of slaughtering 10 new players alone with no armor and a shitty spear. I never get a chance to improve and the amount of time it would take to improve is just far longer than it's really worth. By the time I've learned to be what is basically a pro comp player just to participate in public PVP I've already burnt myself out on the game.
I suppose I'm just nostalgic for those days before everything became so toxic and hyper-competitive.
since Mordhau was free to purchase on EG, servers are flooded with newer players. I'd say it's pretty fine though!
@@vildae Really wish I waited, instead of blowing $60 on it. So much for "fights that look like fights"
@@recap1843 how $60? i purchased on release for like 22€. bought some DLC this year for the first time. probably 30€ spended.
@@vildae Mordhau is $30 on steam, and I bought the DLC which is another $30
Imho animation abuse is okay until it's exclusive to small group of games
I never even noticed animation abuse lmao
I used to play chivalry 2 Just this month and my First 2 games where horrible but now i usually die like 10 Times but kill about 40 people
Maybe i used animation abuse without realizing it haha
Also there is the option to fake attacks like for example faking a swing but changing to a stab or overhead works great for people who dont just press Attack and block
real story
@@sownheard it is lmao
ITS not hard to get 40+ Kills in 64 player modes
1v1 duels is what i am struggling with i get about 17 Kills and die about 25 times in the standalone 1v1 servers
i just dont like it when moving your camera changes your attack, shit's annoying
yeah but that's how the physics are and will be in this genre
So, I disagree with your comment about other games not helping with your ability to play chivalry.... I'm into overwatch in the sweaty tourney environment with organised teams that scrim and vod and coach each week before their match... I think there's a lot of stuff in overwatch from basic tech and mechanics all the way to more broad conceptual strats that have both abstract and practical crossover with chivalry 2.
A lot of my team mates and friends from other teams also think/feel the same way. Overwatch just has a lot that allows its players to transfer those skills learned to other games.
I haven't played Overwatch. Could you be more specific about what exactly helps you in Chivalry, that you learned in OW?
Brother, nothing prepared me for melee slashers
I think he means mechanical skill for the melee slasher. I have 3.4k hours of ow and nothing transfers lol
@@vildae sure.
Mechanically speaking:
Any hero in overwatch has crossover with drags/accels (in a way), you can perform a quick melee and spin and essentially hit everything around you with that quick melee. Then there's general mouse control/aim, character control/movement but most games have that as transferable skills. Reinhardt is literally a giant knight with a hammer, it's virtually the same thing except without stabs and overheads and counters.
Conceptually/abstractly:
Space, specifically controlling, taking, making space, these are very important concepts in overwatch and it essentially is just how your team controls an area of the map, how this relates to chivalry is both in the team gameplay experience however it also has some relation with duelling in that you need to use good feinting/drags/accels and other bits of tech to make your opponent feel uneasy about performing an action that might be high risk high reward, in other words you are controlling the ebb and flow of the engagement, this makes "space" for you to do what you want, and takes the space away from your opponent so they can no longer do what they want.
There is a lot more I could go into. Just don't have time right now.
@@jestershyper alotta time spent in a game with quite literally an enormous knight weilding a hammer and a shield to not see that there's anything that crosses over with chivalry my dude.
Play time does not equal time spent learning the game mechanics. You could be on autopilot for 3.4k hours. Hence why I specified the way in which I play overwatch. Scrims, tournaments, organised team play etc.
The problem with Mord/Chiv isn't that newbies don't want to learn the patterns of eight animations of dozens of weapons, it's that it doesn't look cool. At all. When people come to СS/LoL/Tekken, they often first see cyber athletes at tournaments/streams and see how cool they play. And their games do look cool, because the developers give functionality sharpened for that in the first place. Cybersports games encourage skill and making it look cool and organic in game. But that's not going to be the case with Mord/Chiv, when newbies come into the game and see ballerinas with goofy broken animations. At best they'll laugh. Because it looks clownish, it looks ridiculous, buggy, it doesn't look cool, realistic or fun. I disagree with you on that point. It's not part of the game, otherwise that part of the game wouldn't be hidden behind 1000's of hours of game experience. That's why animation abuse will never be in trailers (and in trailers as you mentioned it will be shamefully mocked and denied) and no professional tournaments broadcast by developers, because any tournament is a showcase for new players. These games are doomed to stay with
just watched your other video was intested to see a full take but I have to say it seems you think a majority of players like and admire the skill of these players (based on the comment you showed) I can tell you from my experience all the way back to chiv 1 most people hate it and not even because you cant counter it you easily can with a longbow and some actual skill with a intended mechanic the problem lies in the fact that you never fully addressed which is it looks jank as hell and completely throws off the feel of the game it was literally advertised as avoiding this. So look if these games are going to continue what actually has to happen is people who abuse these mechanics have to report them to the devs to be fixed instead of running up 1000s of hours off a power fetish its just no fun look at the morhau competitive scene same thing happened to take that down people who abused game mechanics ruined it for everyone, it isn't skill I know how to do this its just not visually appealing at all and it doesn't feel competitive more like a kill grind chore. its a broken feature the goal is to fix it not to normalise it so you can stunt on 37 year old noobs who had 3 hours a month away from there wife.
i believe i mentioned that it breaks the immersion and is irrealistic (reason n. 4). i belive most players hate them, but they soon leave so it looks like the 'loyal playerbase' like it because casual players already left.
Who cares about growth? Chivalry was never promoted as a competitively serious game, but a casual one. You can know that by just seeing the theme of the game, every character is crazy and the humor of the game is gory and light hearted at the same time. It's clear that it wasn't designed to be taken seriously.
And Mordhau does take itself more seriously, the social interactions weren't intended to be as silly as they were. So you can take the game more seriously and practice, but that's exactly why it fails. Even with a tutorial, as you said, nobody wants to spend 2000 hours just to rival a good player.
Player skill growth doesn't make a good game, it's mechanics does. And Chivalry does that greatly even if you remove "dark arts" entirely, because the gameplay loop is fun, not how deep the rabbit-hole goes. That only matters to a minority of players.
İ think animation abuse is like rocket jumping in tf2 its not in the game but devs keepin it and i dont think animation abuse is anoying were i was a noob and first time i see it i didint get anger i just said this dude is pro its breaking the fucking game and i will beat his ass and the first time i didnt fall in tehir trap and kick their fucking face was fun as hell if you need to work harder for success when u get it its fun asf just like rocket jumping
nice analogy. mordhau's just like tf2 xD
Dude... the hell are you talking about? Rocket jumping its intended mechanic and is brought from quake. And the devs are completly aware of this, even appears in the trailers!
@@nern8508 yea i know what's changed
I don't even play this game and it's all I see
its funny, both games chivalry and mordhau dont have a lot players and they also lose more, and for me its funny how "good" players try defend this exploit, its rly make someone better bec he use a exploit? so u want tell me, someone is better then me, bec I see attack coming from above so I try to parry it and I get hit, bec he use a exploit and attack, what I saw, was not attack from above but I saw it like its coming from above xD its not abuse its exploit, it's simple, attack can be parry by same attack, so u using trick to cheat a game mechanic, bec you make your attack to looks like it coming from above but for game its coming from right side
a lot player complaining about this and u defending this, image why both games dying xD ppl play on games for fun, and how they can get it on games when ppl use evrey single possibility to kill them even exploiting, but yea just get good, spend 1000h to learn how exploting and show everyone how good u are in game, but u rly are better? when u need use a exploit to kill others players?
in alomst every other game, when u spend time u just learn the game, what actions are useful and what to do to be better and better, in chivalry 2 just use exploit to trick your opponent so he will think u attack him from above but for real your attack coming from left side xD
well you definitely fall into 1st category of exploit haters. haha. exploits get fixed, right? .. that's personal opinion.
but.. what you're talking about is something that most casual players do not have to worry about. like, if you go to duel servers, then you're gonna come into contact wtih this stuff.
@@vildae Exploits get fixed if the company bothers to fix them. How many triple A games have exploits that the developer does patch out due to various reasons? That is a weak argument, Mordhau alone (not chiv because they never marketed as such) prided themselves on "making fights that look like fights" as an outright mocking of the spin to win strat in low to mid level civ 1 lobbies. Yet when the very same exploits were found in their own game they "tried" to fix it.
Reduced turn caps, slower dragging and other physics tweaks. The thing is that these issues are inherent to the core physics engine and nothing sort of a whole overhaul would have any chance at fixing it. Now despite the stories of how crappy I've heard the Mordhau dev team in (especially Crush). I would understand why you wouldn't want to do something like that. Waaaaay to much work for a potential failure and making it worse. Hell lots of people don't even play these games and the ones that do, well they're accustomed to these issues and some even like it (I don't but I deal with it).
Swing manipulation is both a curse and a blessing. It really rejuvenates what you can do in combat, and hell even these exploits (yes they are exploits) add new tecs to the game. But at the same time it scares away newer players and shit like the wessex is just fucking dumb. A light tap with your weapon shouldn't be doing full swing damage. If they wanted to keep those in as a genuine tec it should only count as one of those light hits (I forget the name) the one that only stuns and does a smidgin of health damage.
@@recap1843 Well, perhaps it's a weak argument, my main points is that it comes down to personal opinion. I am fine with other players thinking it's an exploit, but I believe it's jsut a 'byproduct' of complex combat system, that exists and should be handled if you want to excel at the game.
@@vildae While I agree with you on this. Yeah it's a byproduct and part of the game now (just like every other PVP slasher with a physics system) good call out on war of roses btw, used to play that a bit before it got shut down (not a horrible game).
The funny thing to be good at these games you don't need to learn all that fancy shit, fundamentals can deal with spiny boys and weird manipulation stuff.
The problem lies in casual fun. Even duel servers aren't just full of sweats all the time (Hell I consider myself quite mid, and I go on duel servers all the time... Otherwise my shitty PC would explode lol). But when you catch someone doing those noob to medium skill traps it really devalues the game.
It doesn't look good, it doesn't feel good, and all your doing is noob stomping if you are doing it. To me that isn't the game I or many other excited fans signed up for (I figured something would happen like this considering I've played every slasher sans classic mod Chiv and Chiv 2 on the list.)
But many others didn't coming to this game to not experience crappy unreadable animations and spin to win players that can hold off a whole group of five.
@@vildae no no no, u say its a "abuse" but by definition is a expolit, abusing is diffrent, u can abuse some game mechanics, chivalry dont rly have that think like other games, its exploit bec think what u do is not a game mechanic, let's say on overwatch you was able to leave the game and rejoin to spawn faster and that was abuse bec game give u that possibility, and this animation exploit its not a game mechanic it is parto of the game but its not the mechanic, thats why its exploit by definition
bec you use part of the game to trick your enemies in unfair way, like in hearts of iron 4 - one patch give u possibility to printing eq, u just send to someone lend lease and u choose how mutch eq u want to send, u put everything on 999999999999 and game give you back your eq bec u didint have it so u cant send it, but something was broken bec u get this number what you wrote so u just print your eq in that way :D and u cant call it a abuse, bec that was a exploit xD u can say like - yea noobs can just learn this right? its just skill, if they will spend more time they will just und that xD that's silly, bec you have possibility to trick your enemies without use a exploits, and u can say like yea its just a animation but everything what u do in chivalry2 and mordhau is base on your enemy, if u see attack u try to block it, but if someone use exploit to trick you, how u can defend yourself? and skill now dosent matter, nvm how long you play on the game if u see attack from above u will try it parry it with same attack but u cant bec its not the same attack, thats why its a exploit, by using that bug animation you take away the opportunity for the opponent to defend himself, that why u cant call it a abuse
I have hope u und my point of view :D
anyway it's still funny, bec I can understand ppl who do that can be very good players, but using that's such bugs they destroying the game, so basically fans destroying what they love, I play sometimes, but I rly dont care about my stats or anything just play for fun, and if someone will tell me tomorow like they close chivalry or mordhau I will not cry, juste delete the game and open something diffrent, thats why I think if u rly love the game, speak about the problems bec like u said for some ppl its a explot and thats why they dont want to play it, so what if new ppl will not come and old players start leav? game will be dead, and we speak here about +2k ppl in chivalry and 2k in mordhau, for now its ok player base, and I think chivalry will not die, gameplay is more arcade so more ppl stay there, but mordhau losing players again... last time they had like 900 and devs start giving game for free on epic, I remember I saw like 6k ppl and now alredy after months or 2 is only 2k and is still going down, so yea, that can be a problem in the future
Click baited????????
i'm trying to work on my thumbnail game. i try to create a thumbnail that attracts the viewer but doesn't lie about the content of the video.
Yea I can tell, I was just joking
It's actually not that bad, if you play for long enough you'll get better, you are going to be able to detect animation abuse and counter it after some time playing.
@bl00d12 it's not like you have to, either you are passionate abt the game or you do smth else
I don't think there needs to be a tutorial; simply add a bonus objective each match.
- 0/5 Land a strike after feinting
- 0/5 Hit with the start of your swing
- 0/5 Hit with the end of your swing
- 0/2 Avoid a swing by ducking
Maybe they give an extra 100 coins or something. If the player doesn't understand, show a GIF of the behavior in pause menu. The longer the tutorial the less I will pay attention.
oh, that’s very good idea. and i just realized why none of the melee slasher games doesn’t have any daily missions anyway? would be nice.
I personally think animation abuse is what makes melee slashers games last in the long term , removing it is removing the only thing that'll make the skill ceiling higher and game more compelling to play.
Maybe I'm just biased but I also despise things such as held parries since they seem to just make the game too easy to play.
Swing manip is the soul of melee slashers.
yes, i agree. or well, that's what i said in the vid. anim abuse is unremovable and it gives the game more depth. instead, we should focus on the reason why players get upset and provide proper infromation to not make them quit.
edit: it's a unique skill ceiling that other games don't have. moving your mouse is just so.. idk, so cool.
Star Wars Battlefront 2 had actually really deep combat between the lightsaber heros without real animation abuse. But that game got its own things like this I guess
i started playing mordhau about four weeks ago, first two days i played without tutorial,so i didnt even know hot to riposte,feint or kick. but then i finnished tutorial and i was much better at mordhau, then i started to play on server with 10lvl - 200lvl players, and i got destroyed averyday, but now i after 4 weeks iam able to kill them(200lvl players, but they still win most of the time but not always hehehe)